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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday.

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Speaker 1: Time to go into the vault for an older episode

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Speaker 1: of the show. This one was the first in our

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Speaker 1: series on the Halo, the Halo Iconography, which I remember

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Speaker 1: that one was was one of my favorite series we

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Speaker 1: did in the past couple of years. This one originally

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Speaker 1: published on February. I'm excited to be revisiting it so

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Speaker 1: we we hope you enjoy as well. Welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind production of My Heart Radio. Hey

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Speaker 1: you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. In today, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to start off with a kind of thought experiment

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Speaker 1: that I think we've actually used on the show before,

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Speaker 1: but we'll use it again because I think it is useful.

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Speaker 1: It's it's the Martian Archaeologists thought experiment. Uh and so

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Speaker 1: uh imagine an exo archaeologist from another planet is coming

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Speaker 1: to study the physical remains of human civilizations long after

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Speaker 1: humanity has gone. Who knows what we did. We we

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Speaker 1: screwed up somehow, and there are none of us around

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Speaker 1: here anymore, but the physical remains of our cities and

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Speaker 1: institutions are still hanging about the earth. I've seen enough

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Speaker 1: episodes of out our Limits to to make a few

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Speaker 1: guesses as to how it could have happened. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the neutron bombs of the Facebook wars, they did the job.

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Speaker 1: Or hey, maybe maybe there's a better option, and maybe

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Speaker 1: we we warped ourselves into the seventeenth dimension and escaped

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Speaker 1: this world, you know, not a bad end. So this

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Speaker 1: alien archaeologist is trying to understand lost cultures of humankind

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Speaker 1: through the works of art that they created and preserved,

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Speaker 1: and at some point she ends up browsing museums. Maybe

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Speaker 1: she's walking through the louver and looking at the paintings

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Speaker 1: that we're you know, we're once housed and revered here.

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Speaker 1: And if she were to look over many of the

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Speaker 1: famous paintings of of medieval and Renaissance Europe, she might

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Speaker 1: arrive at a question that would be weird to us,

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Speaker 1: but I think perfectly reasonable to her, And that would

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Speaker 1: be why did so many of the people considered wholly

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Speaker 1: by these artists where wide brimmed gold hats or gold

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Speaker 1: wires around their heads? Now, of course, with enough cultural context,

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Speaker 1: we ourselves know that these are not hats in the

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Speaker 1: paintings there. You know, they're not even supposed to represent

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Speaker 1: real physical objects. This, of course is the artistic convention

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Speaker 1: known today as the halo. But I think it's interesting

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Speaker 1: that in a lot of these paintings there might not

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Speaker 1: be anything in the painting that would tell you that

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Speaker 1: in isolation, it just looks like people have something that's

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Speaker 1: yellow or gold, often circular, sometimes square shaped, or just

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Speaker 1: like a cloud or a kind of glow or radiance

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Speaker 1: around their head. Yeah, it is well discuss it. It

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Speaker 1: ranges from something that is very subtle to to sometimes

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Speaker 1: things that are very unavoidable, even where it goes beyond

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Speaker 1: the halo and becomes this all encompassing nimbus. But but

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Speaker 1: you know, you mentioned earlier how the alien might look

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Speaker 1: and say, why why are these people considered holy? Why

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Speaker 1: do they have the halo? But I think it would

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Speaker 1: go even beyond that, like why did these other organisms

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Speaker 1: that are represented in these works of art, why do

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Speaker 1: they have like they wouldn't know they're they're they're holy,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily you know, they're true, they're the subject of

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Speaker 1: a painting. But otherwise, you know what, they might not

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Speaker 1: even be able to piece together what this signifies, what

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Speaker 1: it means. Why is it there? You know, why was

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Speaker 1: it that some of these humans but not others appear

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Speaker 1: to have bioluminescence? Like why does their hair emit light?

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Speaker 1: You know, did they have a do they have like

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Speaker 1: chemo luminescence in the keratin of their hair cells or something?

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Speaker 1: And then I think the exo archaeologists might notice something

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Speaker 1: that a lot of us don't tend to notice when

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Speaker 1: we grow up looking at images of like Jesus and

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Speaker 1: saints and stuff with halo uh, And that would be

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Speaker 1: the similarity of the iconography here the glow or the

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Speaker 1: or the gold circle or disk around the heads of

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Speaker 1: saints and and God's in a Christian context, the similarity

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Speaker 1: of that to depictions of God's from other religions, religions

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Speaker 1: that still exist in the world today or the religions

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Speaker 1: of ages past. Absolutely, you can easily start looking at

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Speaker 1: these halos and things like halos, and you could just

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Speaker 1: go crazy with a conspiracy theory connection board, right um.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's easy to do. Even if you're

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Speaker 1: not prone to conspiracy thinking. You could think like, oh, well, look,

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Speaker 1: clearly they're all describing the same thing, either the same

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Speaker 1: mysterious light source that it is forbidden to represent an

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Speaker 1: art that is always positioned directly behind a person, or

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Speaker 1: this the same like alien disks that we're interacting with

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Speaker 1: ancient people's or you know, you could also go h

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Speaker 1: and and use it to prop up various theories such

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Speaker 1: as say that, you know, the bicameral mind hypothesis, things

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Speaker 1: like that, you know, which I think actually will probably

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Speaker 1: uh come to people's minds a lot as we roll

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Speaker 1: through this episode in particular, Oh yeah, there will be

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Speaker 1: some very specific and interesting connections there. But anyway, so

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Speaker 1: to come back to the idea of you know, what

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Speaker 1: we do know about the Halo, the fact that it's

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Speaker 1: an artistic convention. This is one of these subjects that

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Speaker 1: I really love because it's something that I've seen and

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Speaker 1: just taken for granted my entire life without ever stopping

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Speaker 1: to wonder where it comes from, what it means, and

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Speaker 1: how it connects to history and religion and science. So

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Speaker 1: for the next couple of episodes, we wanted to take

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Speaker 1: a look at the Halo from a bunch of different

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Speaker 1: angles and see what kind of sense we can make

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Speaker 1: of it now? That opening question I asked of imagining

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Speaker 1: an alien archaeologist looking at these depictions in art that

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Speaker 1: weren't supposed to be physical golden hats, but could have

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Speaker 1: been mistaken for such. Uh. This actually connects to an

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Speaker 1: episode of the Artifacts that I did back in January

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Speaker 1: about ancient Egyptian head cones. If you to get the

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Speaker 1: full story, you can go and listen to that episode.

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Speaker 1: But the short and simplified version goes like this. A

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Speaker 1: lot of ancient Egyptian art shows people with these weird

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Speaker 1: white cones on top of their heads. You know, maybe

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Speaker 1: about the size of a soft ball, but cone shaped.

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Speaker 1: And there has long been a debate about what these

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Speaker 1: cones were supposed to represent. One popular theory is that

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Speaker 1: this is a depiction of a real thing from ancient Egypt,

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Speaker 1: which would have been lumps of unguent or perfumed animal fat,

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Speaker 1: which would melt into the scalp and then perform a

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Speaker 1: kind of ritual purification as as the oils came down

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Speaker 1: over your head. It would be somewhat analogous to the

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Speaker 1: to the kind of anointing with oil rituals that we

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Speaker 1: see in other ancient Near Eastern traditions that you can

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Speaker 1: even find in the Bible. But because until recently these

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Speaker 1: cones had only been seen in art and never explicitly

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Speaker 1: given physical grounding, there was always some reason to wonder, well,

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Speaker 1: were these cones maybe not physical objects at all, but

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Speaker 1: symbolic artistic conventions like halos. Well, a few years back,

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Speaker 1: some physical examples of head cones were actually found in

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Speaker 1: some graves in Egypt, so we now know that at

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Speaker 1: least some of them were physical objects. Though a lot

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Speaker 1: of questions still remain about about these head cones. But

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Speaker 1: the analogy to Halo's really got the gears turning in

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Speaker 1: my brain and got me wondering about halo's themselves. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's ultimately a fascinating subject. Again, I'm in the

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Speaker 1: same boat, like I grew up seeing all these images

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Speaker 1: of halos, to the point where halos didn't even feel

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Speaker 1: suitably weird or even majestic. And I think part of

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Speaker 1: that is the part of that comes from uh angel

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Speaker 1: costumes and cartoon depictions of angel costumes, where even someone

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Speaker 1: like Tom and Jerry will have some sort of a

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Speaker 1: halo above their head made out of maybe like foiled cardboard,

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Speaker 1: and it is visibly held in place by some sort

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Speaker 1: of wire that goes down to the back of their net.

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Speaker 1: You know what I'm talking about, Oh, exactly. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: domestication of this imagery really kind of takes the awe

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Speaker 1: inspiring element out of it. Yeah, it ends up making

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Speaker 1: it look kind of stupid, you know. Um and um

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Speaker 1: and and I think you also see some of that

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Speaker 1: in the actual tradition of the halo, with a sort

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Speaker 1: of eventually falling out of favor except in places where

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Speaker 1: it was really firmly established. Um. But but of course,

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Speaker 1: like we said already, you'll see so many different versions

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Speaker 1: of the halo, even in um, you know, Western art

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Speaker 1: depicting Christian saints and important holy individuals. Uh. The one

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Speaker 1: that I ran across it I really liked was Carravaggio's

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Speaker 1: The Madonna di Loretto, or more at least a detail

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Speaker 1: from that. Um and it's such a faint halo you

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Speaker 1: could easily you could easily miss it, perhaps, but it

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Speaker 1: but it also really stands out at you because it

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Speaker 1: that the lines in it run counter to the vertical

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Speaker 1: lines behind her. Yeah, and I like that in Carvaccio's

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Speaker 1: art because the it suggests that in a way, holiness

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Speaker 1: is something that is subtle to the human imagination. Maybe

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Speaker 1: it would be obvious to the heavens, but you know,

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Speaker 1: here on Earth, it's just the faintest glimmer of a circle. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you have to look for it. Yeah. Um. You know

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Speaker 1: our Scott Baker and some of his fantasy books that

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Speaker 1: they're particularly magical individuals who occasionally developed halos around the

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Speaker 1: palms of their hands, and it's not visible all the time,

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Speaker 1: but just at certain moments by certain people. And I

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Speaker 1: feel like that kind of captured some of the energy

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Speaker 1: that you see in illustrations such as this um. But

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Speaker 1: but other times you see realizations of the halo and

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Speaker 1: art that are just they look very much like some

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Speaker 1: sort of a physical ring or a physical disc, like

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Speaker 1: they have one of the Golden records that we sent

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Speaker 1: into space situated either right above their head or directly

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Speaker 1: behind it. Yeah. I've read that this I think was

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Speaker 1: especially common among like Florentine artists of the Renaissance, who

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Speaker 1: would start depicting the halo almost as if it was

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Speaker 1: a disc in three dimensional space that was balanced on

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Speaker 1: the back of the head. Yeah. One of my favorite

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Speaker 1: saints from Art was the subject of some paintings that

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Speaker 1: I saw at the Louver. It's this guy named Peter

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Speaker 1: of Verona, who is usually shown with a machete sticking

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Speaker 1: out of his head. Here is with blood and everything. Yeah, blood,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like these paintings of Peter of Verona

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Speaker 1: should be the new this is fine meme because he

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Speaker 1: really looks like, you know, we're making it work. Um.

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Speaker 1: Peter was a thirteenth century inquisitor. I think he was

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Speaker 1: some kind of heresy hunter. I think he preached against

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Speaker 1: the Cathars, and the story goes that the Cathars hired

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Speaker 1: an assassin to kill him and then he got hit

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Speaker 1: in the head with a blade of some kind, like

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Speaker 1: this guy brained him with an axe, and then the

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Speaker 1: I think, according to the story, he wrote out the

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Speaker 1: Apostles Creed or part of the Apostles Creed in his

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Speaker 1: own blood as he was dying. He also, in both

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Speaker 1: of these has the images that you shared with me.

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Speaker 1: He also has a blade piercing his heart. It looks

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Speaker 1: like he was stabbed in one of them and backstabbed

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Speaker 1: in the other depiction. Yeah, so he I mean, ultimately,

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Speaker 1: the jump between this and full blown Clive Barker cinobyte

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Speaker 1: is not that far, you know. And yes, he's very

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Speaker 1: close to a cinobyte, the machete head, cinobyte, serene face

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Speaker 1: and all. I mean the sign between, I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: there's probably a direct line to be made between his

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Speaker 1: vision of the cinobytes and the depictions of saints suffering

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Speaker 1: but not not suffering on holy tortures. What's medieval Latin

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Speaker 1: for savior tears? It's a waste of good suffering. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I don't have that one an easy recall

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Speaker 1: for it from me. But the funny thing is about

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Speaker 1: with Peter and so in both of these he's got

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Speaker 1: like a machete or a butcher knife stuck in just

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Speaker 1: in his head, like you know, like the lightning bolt

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Speaker 1: or the arrow party gag headset just sticking out at

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Speaker 1: the top of his head. And you're you're so fixated

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Speaker 1: on the weapon you don't even notice that he's got

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Speaker 1: a faint circle around his head or behind it. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there it is the halo the and and you know

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Speaker 1: it's you think it's helpful too to think about, to

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Speaker 1: ask yourself, like, what could it be? What is this

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Speaker 1: thing behind the head you know, the physical plate, a

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Speaker 1: glow an aura, but also you see various interpretations where

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Speaker 1: you can think of it as the Sun itself or

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Speaker 1: the moon, some sort of cosmic entity, or perhaps a window,

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Speaker 1: a portal uh to another realm. Like all of all

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Speaker 1: of these things uh you see arise at different times

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Speaker 1: and interpretations of the halo, and things that inspired the

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Speaker 1: halo or seemed to have inspired it, or just have

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Speaker 1: some just basic connection to it based on similar symbology. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: since there's so many variations on the halo and the

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Speaker 1: related concept of the aureole, I think that it's best

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Speaker 1: to think about the halo not as something that has

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Speaker 1: like strict criteria for what counts as a halo, but

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Speaker 1: more a a collection of family resemblance. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: like the definition of a game in the Wittgensteinian sense. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, It's just like there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: things that you can tell they're all related in some way,

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Speaker 1: but there's no set of criteria area that all of

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Speaker 1: them meet. But I think we can at least generally

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Speaker 1: say that a halo is something like an area of

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Speaker 1: light or golden color, or some kind of radiant cloud,

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Speaker 1: usually circular but not always surrounding the head of a

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Speaker 1: holy or revered figure. It's also sometimes called a nimbus.

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Speaker 1: I think we've mentioned that already, but it is related

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Speaker 1: to and with significant overlap on, the concept of an aureole,

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Speaker 1: which is a glow or area of brightness that surrounds

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Speaker 1: a person, especially their head. So I think there's some

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Speaker 1: looseness with the language here, but as best I can tell,

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Speaker 1: halo usually refers to the disc or ring or light

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Speaker 1: around the head specifically, and the aureole would include halos,

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Speaker 1: but would would also include something like the full body

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Speaker 1: being surrounded by a glow or a golden shine or

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Speaker 1: or fire. Yeah, and that's a U r e O

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Speaker 1: l e ario, not oreo, though in an artistic depiction

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Speaker 1: you could have an oreo areole. Uh, it's entirely possible.

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Speaker 1: It's the right shape. Oh, you certainly could. Oh. Have

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Speaker 1: you ever noticed that sometimes products in uh, in TV

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Speaker 1: commercials and in advertisements are given a kind of aureole,

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Speaker 1: Like a box of cereal will be lit as if

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Speaker 1: there's a light bulb right behind it, so there's a

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Speaker 1: glow emanating from all the sides. Yeah, yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: that that's one of the reasons I started thinking about,

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Speaker 1: you know what some of these uh, these these paintings

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Speaker 1: we see in these images where it looks like there

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Speaker 1: is a light behind the head. You know, you can

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Speaker 1: easily imagine panning to one side and there is a

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Speaker 1: tripod back there and there's the photographer's light, you know,

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Speaker 1: and then ultimately that's what we we do to backolet

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Speaker 1: things today. UM. But yeah, you do see you see

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Speaker 1: things that are like halos, and sometimes things that are

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Speaker 1: very much like halos in modern photography, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of it is just by virtue of that sort of positioning.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about either a light position behind the individual

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Speaker 1: just by happenstance because the light's got to go somewhere,

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Speaker 1: or it's some sort of the existing symbol or decoration.

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Speaker 1: And I want to draw a specific example here that

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Speaker 1: I've I've been kind of obsessed with the last couple

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Speaker 1: of months, um, back since the since the most recent

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Speaker 1: presidential election. UM. You will see photographs of the US

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Speaker 1: president or presidential Canada is president elect, etcetera in which

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Speaker 1: the presidential seal is positioned directly behind the individual's head,

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Speaker 1: sometimes in sharper focus, but other times blurred a bit

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Speaker 1: just by virtue of being behind them in a way

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Speaker 1: that looks a lot like halo iconography. Oh yeah, so

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Speaker 1: I did not know about this before you brought it up,

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Speaker 1: but now that you have mentioned it, or or since

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Speaker 1: I read that you were writing about this, I was

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Speaker 1: seeing it all over the place. Yeah. So you can

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Speaker 1: see George W. Bush with a halo, Barack Obama with

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Speaker 1: a halo. Just seems like there's often enough a big

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Speaker 1: circular seal behind their head when they're getting photographed that

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Speaker 1: these things just naturally happen. Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's

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Speaker 1: because you generally have a back drop back there, and

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Speaker 1: then that's where the presidential seal is. The presidential seal

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Speaker 1: is circular um, and yeah, it ends up looking like halo.

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Speaker 1: And I was thinking about this. I'm like, well, this

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Speaker 1: is interesting, but I'm sure some people do not like it.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure sure enough. I found a wonderful Associated Press

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Speaker 1: blog post about it from and this was from Paul

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Speaker 1: co Ford. The APIs former vice president of media Relations,

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Speaker 1: and he points out that the so called halo issue

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Speaker 1: has been around for a while and that no matter

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Speaker 1: who happens to be president at a given time, people

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Speaker 1: complain about it, you know it because they can make

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Speaker 1: the charge like, what are you doing. You're taking pictures

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Speaker 1: of this president who I don't like, and you're making

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Speaker 1: them look like they are anointed by God? Like, clearly

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Speaker 1: you have an agenda here in the way that the

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Speaker 1: presidential seal is positioned behind their skull. Well, I would

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Speaker 1: say whether I like the president or not if somebody

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Speaker 1: if I thought the photographer was doing that on purpose,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't like it. I mean, you know, right, yes,

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Speaker 1: But knowing a bit about photography and perspective, I can

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Speaker 1: actually see why this might be something that's difficult to avoid. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Go for drives home that it's never the intention of

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Speaker 1: a photographer to give the president a holy glow. But

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Speaker 1: in according to J. David A. Key, a P. Washington's

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Speaker 1: then assistant chief of the Bureau for Photography, quote, the

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Speaker 1: out of focus presidential seal is simply a tool to celebrate,

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Speaker 1: to separate the subject from the background so he is

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Speaker 1: not speaking in a sea of black. And then he

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Speaker 1: adds that they try to make it clear that it's

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Speaker 1: the seal and it's not some sort of glowing blur,

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Speaker 1: And they've tried different things they've tried shooting a lot closer,

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Speaker 1: you know, getting like cropping in tighter to the individual's

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Speaker 1: face so nothing is seen around the head. But then

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Speaker 1: if you do that, well, first of all, you just

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Speaker 1: have like a real close tight shot of somebody's face

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Speaker 1: and you can give me the president. But then also

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Speaker 1: more to the point, you lose any sense of context

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Speaker 1: or sense of location. And that's one of the things

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Speaker 1: you're supposed to do as a photographer too, is to

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Speaker 1: provide that contact in sense of location. And then if

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Speaker 1: you do the reverse, like you pan out more, uh

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Speaker 1: and you know, try and move that seal around in

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Speaker 1: the background, well, then you risk creating a photo that's

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Speaker 1: not suitable for many uses such as mobile use. You know,

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Speaker 1: you don't want to be you know, pull up your

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Speaker 1: news app and you're you're flipping through it and then

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Speaker 1: you're like, who's that. I don't I don't know. There's

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Speaker 1: some some white haired dude there in the background. Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's the president. I had to zoom in to see it.

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Speaker 1: I think the real solution is that presidents just should

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Speaker 1: not have the presidential seal behind them and instead should

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Speaker 1: have like a big, like psychedelic tableau you know, like

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Speaker 1: the like the cover of the of the Jimmy Hendrix

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Speaker 1: Axis Bold as Love album. Yeah, yeah, maybe so. I

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Speaker 1: mean basically, one of the things that comes down to

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Speaker 1: is this is a shot. This is a photograph that

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Speaker 1: gets taken a lot every time the president gives an

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Speaker 1: address or what have you, and the typical background just

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Speaker 1: doesn't really give photographers much to work with, and photographers

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Speaker 1: are constantly trying to figure out how to frame things

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Speaker 1: up in a way that is visually appealing. So, at

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Speaker 1: least for now, until they shake things up and get

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Speaker 1: that new mural background you're talking about, the presidential halo

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Speaker 1: is largely unavoidable. Like you can play around with it yourself,

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Speaker 1: and Matt put yourself in the photographer's shoes and try

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Speaker 1: to imagine what your options are there. Like, ultimately, the

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Speaker 1: halo is kind of the best way to go. Well,

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Speaker 1: maybe we can help you out with that today, just

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Speaker 1: by helping you, as the viewer, reframe you're thinking about

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Speaker 1: the halo so that it is not only the projection

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Speaker 1: of a Christian saint, but in fact is an older

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Speaker 1: and more widespread tradition of showing the radiance around the

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Speaker 1: head or body of an interesting or important figure throughout

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Speaker 1: world mythology. Yeah. Yeah, but but I will I will

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Speaker 1: say that once you start looking for the halo and

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Speaker 1: identifying the halo, you will see it more and more places.

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Speaker 1: So certainly, listeners, as you encounter photographs of people with

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Speaker 1: unintended halos or even intended halos just by virtue of

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Speaker 1: their environment, send those to us. Share those with us,

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Speaker 1: Go go to the discussion module, the Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind discussion module, that's the Facebook group. Share them there.

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Speaker 1: I think it'll be a lot of fun. Bring them on.

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Speaker 1: Thank thank Now. One thing we've already touched on is

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Speaker 1: that not all halos or aureoles are circular in nature,

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Speaker 1: but an awful lot of them are. There's a reason

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Speaker 1: that you couldn't mistake a lot of halos in paintings

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Speaker 1: for being you know, disc shaped gold hats. So so

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Speaker 1: maybe we should probe the circular element here for a minute. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The halo, and it's it's most traditional form, is of

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Speaker 1: course going to be either a pair of concentric circles.

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Speaker 1: It's gonna be or it's gonna be a disc, or

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Speaker 1: it's just gonna be a circle or a hoop of

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Speaker 1: some sort. Um and you know, part of this is

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Speaker 1: we've always been fascinated by circles because the circle is

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Speaker 1: the shape of the sun, it's the shape of the moon,

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Speaker 1: it's the shape of the pupil and our eyeballs. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's just an irresistible It's it's a line that goes

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Speaker 1: on forever. I mean, you can, you can go on

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Speaker 1: and on, like the circle is fascinating in the same

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Speaker 1: way that the triangle in the square are fascinating, will

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Speaker 1: never stop, you know, finding wonder in these shapes. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And the fact that there are no perfect circles in nature,

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Speaker 1: but so much of the physical and biological world ends

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Speaker 1: up imperfectly approximating circles and spheres. Um. And then and

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Speaker 1: then it gets even more mysterious and gets into like

401
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 1: mathematical mysticism once once you have consciousness of geometry, because

402
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 1: there you get all kinds of ideas. You know, I think, uh,

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Speaker 1: the circle has special mystical allure because of its special

404
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Speaker 1: status among two dimensional shapes like uh, you know, it

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Speaker 1: has this relationship to the strange mathematical constant pie and uh.

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Speaker 1: And the fact that if you try to think about

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Speaker 1: it as a polygon, I guess maybe it's technically not

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Speaker 1: a polygon, but if you were to try to frame

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Speaker 1: it as one, it would have to be a polygon

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Speaker 1: with like an infinite number of sides. But the Sun,

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Speaker 1: I think is is a particular note here, and not

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Speaker 1: only because of its circular shape and sort of it's

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Speaker 1: it's all consuming place and human myth making, but also

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Speaker 1: because of of what we call solar halos. And that's

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Speaker 1: something we'll get into more in second episode. But there

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Speaker 1: you know recordings of depictions of solar halos dating back

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Speaker 1: to antiquity. Um you know, in particular the eruption of

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Speaker 1: Mount Etna in one two and forty four b C

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Speaker 1: resulted in rainbow like halos that were observed at that time.

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Speaker 1: UM I was reading Ancient Meteorological Optics by Richard Stouther's

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Speaker 1: in the Classical Journal from two thousand nine, and he

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Speaker 1: goes into this and includes a list of such observations

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Speaker 1: from roughly two oh three b C e on up

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Speaker 1: till three C in addition to mocks sons, which is

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Speaker 1: another optical phenomenal will discuss in the next episode. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And these have been recorded from as far back is

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Speaker 1: five b C in Egypt. Up through Roman observations. In one,

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Speaker 1: so the observation of light based discs and rings in

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Speaker 1: space and in the sky, I think could naturally, uh

430
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 1: suggest some associations between those types of shapes or figures

431
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,720
Speaker 1: and holiness because of the long standing religious associations with

432
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 1: celestial objects, space and the sky. Right. And then on

433
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 1: top of that too, you start thinking about just symbol

434
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,720
Speaker 1: making and uh in the creation of of lines, the

435
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 1: etching of lines into things. And as you begin to

436
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: juggle different symbols and combining symbols, it's it's inevitable that

437
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 1: you would combine the human form with the circle, with

438
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 1: the sun, disc, etcetera. All Right, so we've already mentioned

439
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,199
Speaker 1: that the halo is a very common uh piece of

440
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 1: religious symbolism in Christian art, especially in like the Medieval

441
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,400
Speaker 1: through the Renaissance period. Um. So, so how exactly does

442
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 1: that happen? How does the halo become a part of

443
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 1: how Christians depict their their God and their saints. So

444
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 1: these only pop up in Christian religious art after the

445
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 1: fifth century see and before that it was used to

446
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:59,439
Speaker 1: highlight literally highlight right, um, important secular people such as

447
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 1: kings and emperors. Yeah, there is a long tradition going

448
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: back before Christianity in the Greco Roman world of showing

449
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 1: like kings and emperors, I think, especially when associated with

450
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,160
Speaker 1: Apollo or Helios, gods that are gods of the sun

451
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: or associated with the Sun, to show these figures with

452
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: rays of light emanating from their heads which are very

453
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: similar to or in some cases basically the same as

454
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 1: a halo. And so you could get a pagan emperor

455
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: with a halo before any depictions of say Jesus with

456
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: a halo. Yeah, exactly, And as pointed out by Derek,

457
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: could see siting Um Tavino, Perry, and Ramsden. I'll discuss

458
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: them in a minute in the impact of the symbolism

459
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 1: and iconography of the ax Sun disc and wild jet

460
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: Ie on on modern Western society, saints and other religious figures.

461
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: At this time we're just shown as normal humans. Meanwhile, yes,

462
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 1: the secular rulers, they were the ones with the halos.

463
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 1: So that's funny. You've got to imagine, like how would

464
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 1: that be reversed, like if if Christians and say the

465
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: second century in the Roman Empire, we're seeing depictions of

466
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: the the perhaps hated Roman emperor with a Halo. How

467
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 1: would they end up putting that same kind of imagery

468
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 1: on Jesus. Yeah, exactly. So it's really fascinating to turn

469
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 1: that on its on its on its head here at

470
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: least for like I say, modern consideration of the past.

471
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: Uh So that that tavannor Perry paper, that's J. Tavynor Perry.

472
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: It was a nineteen o seven paper titled The Nimbus

473
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: and Eastern Art. And despite being a nineteen o seven publication,

474
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: you can you can pull this up in j store

475
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 1: and it's a short, very succinct little piece with some

476
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: wonderful illustrations. And you know, this points out and also

477
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,120
Speaker 1: uh cutsy was was commenting on this, is that while

478
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: there's certainly an urge to connect halo's in the Western

479
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: tradition to the ancient Egyptian use of the sun disc um,

480
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: they conclude that that although the halo came from uh

481
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: the ancient Near East, it stem seems to stem from

482
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 1: Aspotamian and Persian use that had been appropriated by the

483
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: Greeks and then later by the Byzantines. Okay, so, if

484
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: if this tracing of the history is correct, A's saying

485
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 1: that there are analogies to the Halo in ancient Egyptian iconography.

486
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: But it looks like the Christians got their use from

487
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: the Greeks and Romans, who in turn got the halo

488
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,439
Speaker 1: ideas from the ancient cultures that would have occupied present

489
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 1: day like Iraq and Iran, Right, yeah, so the ideas, yeah,

490
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: the you know, the Roman usage of it would have

491
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 1: been like, hey, we really like this motif, let's use it.

492
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,440
Speaker 1: Let's use it to signify our rulers, and then eventually

493
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: it passes on to Christian use. I mean, it's kind

494
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: of a story of the of just how irresistible a

495
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: and alarming or or captivating images or a combination of

496
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: symbols happens to be. Now that other piece e. H.

497
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 1: Ramston Uh, this is a much longer piece. It's a

498
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 1: lengthy notice in the same publication Burlington Magazine from nineteen

499
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 1: forty one titled the Halo a fur their inquiry into

500
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: its origin, and this one points to the influence of

501
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: Zoroastrianism on Christianity in general, which would which would bring

502
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: with it the Cavarna or the Havarna, which the author

503
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: here describes as quote the Great Havarn. No. The main

504
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: symbol of royal power and age, old motif of Iranian art,

505
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: and so Ramsden draws a connection between these artistic motifs

506
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 1: and what was to come in both Christian and Buddhist traditions.

507
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: So it's literally a glory or splendor indicating a divine

508
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: force guiding the individual. Also comes from i'me seeing a

509
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: sort of you know, like divine goodwill. It's a kind

510
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: of holy spotlight reserved for kings and leaders. And I

511
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: guess that's something to keep in mind too when we're

512
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: thinking about this, you think about the role of the

513
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: divine king in older traditions, you know, it's like that's

514
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,239
Speaker 1: that's the individual who, you know, the whole system is

515
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: describing as being the chose and one of God or

516
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: the gods, etcetera. Yeah, and so, at least for me,

517
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 1: it's not hard to see how halo imagery would have

518
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: been more thoroughly integrated into Christian artwork in a period

519
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: after Christianity was made socially acceptable in a widespread way

520
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: in the in the Roman Empires, say under Constantine and

521
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: then eventually became the official religion of the Roman Empire.

522
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: There you would see a unification of Christianity with the

523
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: with the state power in the Roman Empire. Yeah. Um.

524
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: So it's interesting to think about what the halo does,

525
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: and especially in later art, about how it it signifies

526
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: that the individual you're looking at is indeed holy. Um.

527
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: And it's it's weird when you look at the at

528
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: the quality of the arts, and maybe not the quality

529
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: of the art, but the changing detail of the art,

530
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: the changing lifelike qualities of the art over time, because

531
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: it would it would seem to me, as as someone

532
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: who's not an expert in these things, that once you

533
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: get into the age of Carravaggio, you know, you don't

534
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: need the halo to show, you know, divine suffering in

535
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: an individual individual. You don't need that halo to realize

536
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: that the individual in the painting is divine. Like they're

537
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: all these other tools, all these other leverage you can pull,

538
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: pull to make it so um, and and yet they're

539
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: they're still there. Um. That I was reading this, this

540
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: wonderful piece, very well written by Amelia Arena's titled Sex,

541
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: Violence and Faith the Art of Caravaggio, and they point

542
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: out that the halo, along with other symbolic inclusions, were

543
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: often the only way to recognize any given individual in

544
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: a painting before car Carravaggio and the traditions before him, uh,

545
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: that this was a particular saint, etcetera. They'll be like, oh, well,

546
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: there's the halo, where there's the you know they're holding, um,

547
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: you know, a particular object or some sort of a

548
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: grizzly uh sign of their passing that sort of thing, right,

549
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: because these saints wouldn't have been somebody, you know, it

550
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: wasn't like they had people magazine where you know what

551
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: the famous figures looked like. Know, there were no photographs

552
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: and you probably never would have seen these people, so

553
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: there wasn't like one way that a figure looked. You

554
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: would have to use cues in the painting itself to

555
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: identify who they are or to identify which of the

556
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: figures in the painting was the person, right, and they

557
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: rain as rights that in the older tradition, you know

558
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: a lot of these people with the halos or other symbols,

559
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: they were basically interchangeable looking because they just looked like

560
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 1: other rich people of the time. And then by the

561
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: time Caravaggio is coming along, he's making them look more

562
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: and more like like actual people. And this is interesting

563
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: too though, because you you know, you you hear about

564
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: the sort of behind the scenes stuff on various famous paintings,

565
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: and you learned that, oh, well, this person that's portraying

566
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: Jesus or whoever, that was just some strapping lad from

567
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: in somewhere around town that came in to pose for

568
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: some paintings. Uh. So there's still you know, not actual

569
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: depictions of of in order there supposed to you know,

570
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: be actual depictions of the person. You know, it's not

571
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: a snapshot of of an historic Jesus or anything, but

572
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: it's some body that's put there. And then you add

573
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: these other things, either other symbols that allow you to,

574
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: uh to gain something from it. And I think that

575
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: gets too into the role the like the long standing

576
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: role of religious art that you see not only in

577
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: Christianity but in Hinduism, Buddhism, etcetera. And that is the

578
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: use of the image to convey often complex uh theological

579
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: ideas that you know that that maybe even be difficult

580
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: to explain with language, things such as the transfiguration of

581
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: Christ and UH the various complex roles and and powers

582
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: of Hindu deities and UH and and also meditative practices

583
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,719
Speaker 1: in Um Tibetan Buddhism. Uh. You know, these are all

584
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: things that are often, you know, laboriously baked into the

585
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: the visual image that you're presented with. Even if you're

586
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: an outsider, you don't necessarily pick up on all of

587
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: these things. I think a lot of times. One thing

588
00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 1: that religious painting tends to do is to inject a

589
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: kind of visceral passion into stories that are actually told

590
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: just in pure linguistic terms, in a kind of spare way.

591
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: Like reading the text of the crucifixion narrative in the

592
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: Gospel of Mark is going to ask you to sort

593
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: of do a lot of work of like reading, you know,

594
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: passionate imagery into it. It's actually a rather lean narrative,

595
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: but you can do a painting of it that's just

596
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: full of pathos and anguish and uh and and showing

597
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: the full suffering that the artists want to depict. Yeah. Absolutely, Now,

598
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: I guess it's time to get into some interesting examples

599
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: of other religious and artistic traditions around the world that

600
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: show something that might be considered analogous to the halo

601
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: or aureole outside of the Christian artistic tradition UM one

602
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: of the oldest analogs to the image of the halo

603
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: that that I came across might be something that is

604
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: found in ancient Mesopotamian mythology. So I want to start

605
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: off with a specific fig example from the many stories

606
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: of Gilgamesh. Now, in the Gilgamesh narratives, there is a

607
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: recurring theme where Gilgamesh and his his friend or his

608
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: servant in ky Do have to travel to the dreaded

609
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: Cedar forest to slay a monstrous giant called who wah

610
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: Wah or Humbaba, who is the terrifying guardian of the woods,

611
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: whose roar is as a flood, whose mouth is fire,

612
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: and whose breath is death itself. One version of the

613
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: story I was looking at included a line that was

614
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: something like Huahwa like a man eating lion, he does

615
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: not wipe the blood from his slaver, and some some

616
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: interpretations this right in Keto is kind of a beast

617
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: man himself, right, yes, I think so. Now I'm not

618
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: an expert in this. I think in the actual epic

619
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: of Gilgamesh, which is a later sort of built out

620
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: version of the recurring motif, he is I don't know,

621
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: wild man at least a beast man. Oh yeah, he's

622
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: on the locusts and honey diet. But anyway, there are

623
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: tons of different versions of this story from ancient Mesopotamian

624
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: poetry and mythology, where Gilgamesh or Gilgamesh and in ky

625
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 1: Do have to go kill this monster in the cedar forest,

626
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: and in many versions of the story found in different

627
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: ancient texts, Huawa or Humbaba is said to be surrounded

628
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: by seven layers of something. Sometimes this something is interpreted

629
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: as a more straightforwardly to a type of cloak or

630
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,280
Speaker 1: armor that protects him, So he's got seven layers of armor,

631
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: seven cloaks. Other times it is interpreted as hum Baba's

632
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: seven terrors, or even his seven auras that inflict a horror,

633
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: a supernatural terror on his enemies. And in one Sumerian

634
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 1: version of the early story gilgame and huah Wa, it

635
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: says that when the warriors neared Huahwa, the monsters are

636
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 1: a sped towards them like a spear. Oh wow, so

637
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: they're like, it's like he's got seven shield tokens that

638
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: they're not only protect him but can be used offensively

639
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: as well. Wait, what are the shield tokens? You know,

640
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 1: in various board games, you would have tokens for your shields.

641
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: So he's like seven shields, so like you'd have to

642
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: combat your way through all seven shields before you could

643
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: actually hurt the creature itself. Yes, it's clear they have

644
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: some kind of defensive effect. They also have some kind

645
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: of offensive effect, and it's it's very ambiguous exactly what

646
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: they are. There are a thing that can be taken

647
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: on and off, and they protect him, and they are

648
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 1: an emanation of supernatural power that is sometimes represented as

649
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,320
Speaker 1: a kind of light or glow. And in many versions

650
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,439
Speaker 1: of the story, what happens is Gilgamesh entices huah Wa

651
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: to take off and hand over his seven terrors or

652
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: his seven auras, one at a time by offering gifts

653
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: and flattery and return. So Gilgamesh will come up to him,

654
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 1: and he will go to HuaHua and say, no one

655
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: knows where you live in the mountains. I want to

656
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: be like you. I want to be one of your kinsmen.

657
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: Here is a gift of lapis lazuli. Hand over your

658
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: fifth aura. And so then HuaHua hands over his, you know,

659
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: each of one of his seven auras in succession. At

660
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 1: some point, Gilgamesh offers one of his sisters to huahwa Is,

661
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,919
Speaker 1: a concubine. At some point he offers him I think,

662
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: uh some kind of special flower grain. But eventually, once

663
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 1: all of the auras or terrors are removed, Gilgamesh can

664
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: suddenly beat the monster up. Like in some versions that says,

665
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: immediately Gilgamesh punches him in the face. And I was

666
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: reading about there's one specific version of this story, uh

667
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 1: that involves a great debate about whether to chase after

668
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 1: the auras. It seems like the auras like fly off

669
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 1: on their own. I was reading about this in the

670
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: Epic of Gilgamesh, The Babylonian Epic Poem and other Texts

671
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: in Acadian and Sumerian by Andrew George from Penguin in

672
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: two thousand two. And this example is in what's known

673
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 1: as the East Kali Tablet. It's a tablet that contains

674
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: one version of the story supposedly dated to the eighteenth

675
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 1: century b c. E. And uh So, in this version

676
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: of the story, in ky Do and Gilgamesh, after huahwa

677
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: Is is defeated, uh inky Do says to Gilgamesh, hey

678
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,760
Speaker 1: don't spare your foe, but Gilgamesh wants to go hunt

679
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: down hua was auras, like they they've somehow gotten away

680
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 1: uh And the text here describes them as radiant, numinous

681
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: powers that Huahwa wears his protection. And Gilgamesh is like, no,

682
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: we gotta go get them, and in ky Do suggests

683
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: that they can easily do that later. Instead, we've got

684
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: to stay here and kill Huahwa. And then after we

685
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: kill HuaHua, we can go find the auras. And to

686
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: quote from the tablet and translation, said in ky Do

687
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 1: to him to kill Gamesh, smite Huahwa, the ogre, who

688
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 1: your God's abhor Why, my friend, do you show him mercy?

689
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 1: Said Gilgamesh to him. Two in ky Do, Now, my friend,

690
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: we must impose our victory. The auras slip away in

691
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 1: the thicket. The auras slip away, their radiance grows dim,

692
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,720
Speaker 1: said in key Do to him, to Gilgamesh, my friend,

693
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 1: catch a bird, and where go it's chicks. Let us

694
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,439
Speaker 1: look for the aura's later as the chicks run here

695
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,320
Speaker 1: and there in the thicket. Yeah, I love that. I

696
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 1: mean it almost takes on a comical um uh air

697
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: for sure, but it also reminds me just thinking about

698
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: I mean, I love the idea of thinking about these

699
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 1: is sort of is haunted auras that surround him in

700
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: energy fields, etcetera. But of course I'm I'm going back

701
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 1: to our episode. I think it was the Horned helm

702
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: episode that we talked about the invention of a little

703
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: bit about the inventions of armor and helmets, and we

704
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 1: talked about how the cloak uh itself is an important

705
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: piece of armor in many older traditions, you know, it

706
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: was a basic way to protect your body and combat um.

707
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,760
Speaker 1: And so perhaps these are just like many different living,

708
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: animate cloaks that he wore uh. And isn't it interesting

709
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,240
Speaker 1: that even today we have imagined beings with animate cloaks

710
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: like I know, for example, I think Uh, I think

711
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: Dr Strange has a living cloak that has a mind

712
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: of its own. And I want to say that Spawn

713
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 1: does as well. I'm not an expert on spawn, but

714
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: I think there's something about his cloak being alive as well.

715
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 1: Oh that's great, yes, Spawn. His Spawn's got a cape

716
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: or something. It's like a big in the movie. It's

717
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 1: this giant c g I cape that does magic stuff.

718
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: But so here, I guess the idea is that this

719
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 1: monster had the seven whatever these are the auras, the terrors,

720
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:52,280
Speaker 1: the seven sort of defensive, magical, glowing, full body halo

721
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 1: type things, and that he can take them off and

722
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 1: put them back on, and when he takes them off

723
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: after he's defeated, they'll scatter all over the place, and

724
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 1: you have to go catch them if you want to.

725
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: I don't know if you want to, I guess domesticate

726
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: his halos and put them to your own uses. So

727
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 1: I was reading further about this concept of these ancient

728
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: Mesopotamian auras or halo type things in a book called

729
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,919
Speaker 1: God's Demons and Symbols by Jeremy Black and Anthony Green

730
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: from the University of Texas Press in nine and uh

731
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 1: and so that they're also talking about the story of

732
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: Huaha or Humbabah, and they translate the word for the

733
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: seven layers as terrifying radiance, and they they relate this

734
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 1: to a broader entry. They've got on a couple of

735
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: concepts from ancient Mesopotamian religion called milam and nie uh.

736
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 1: These are both Sumerian words. Melam's a caddy and equivalent

737
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: is milamu, and melom refers to a specific type of

738
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: divine power, while Nie seems to refer to the effect

739
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 1: that melom has upon humans. So if you are walking

740
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 1: through the cedar forest and you hear a rustling in

741
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: the bushes, and then Huawa pops out and you witness

742
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: his melom, you will probably be stricken with knee. And no,

743
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 1: I do not know if there is any connection to

744
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 1: the monty python thing, but I can't wonder. Yeah, but

745
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: Black and Greenwright quote the exact connotation of melam is

746
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: difficult to grasp. It is a brilliant, visible glamour which

747
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: is exuded by God's heroes, sometimes by kings, and also

748
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 1: by temples of great holiness, and by God's symbols and emblems.

749
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: While it is in some ways a phenomenon of light,

750
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: melam is at the same time terrifying, awe inspiring. Knee

751
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: can be experienced as a physical creeping of the flesh.

752
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,879
Speaker 1: And they say that both Sumerian and a Cadian are

753
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: rich in words to describe this phenomenon and its effects. So,

754
00:41:57,760 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: in keeping with the story we were looking at a

755
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 1: minute ago, they say that gods are sometimes said to

756
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,240
Speaker 1: where their melom like a garment or like a crown.

757
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:07,879
Speaker 1: And they say that like a garment or a crown,

758
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: the mellom can be taken off, you can shed it,

759
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 1: and if you kill a god, it's melom will vanish

760
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 1: or run away. They also stressed that while the melom

761
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:23,399
Speaker 1: is apparently always supernatural, it is not inherently good. Both

762
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: revered gods and monstrous demons where the melom alike, it

763
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 1: seems to be a visual representation of overwhelming supernatural power.

764
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 1: That is, that is imagined as some kind of emanation

765
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 1: of light or glow fascinating so holy or unholy aura. Yeah,

766
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: and this is one of those things that I just

767
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: feel like, oh, I wish I could know, like where

768
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,359
Speaker 1: does this concept come from? Like does this have some

769
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 1: kind of basis in the natural world or is this

770
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 1: pure imagination or does it have some basis in I

771
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: don't know, quirks of human psychology. I mean, I guess

772
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: we'll get more into sort of natural phenomenon in psychology

773
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,760
Speaker 1: in the second episode. But but man, yeah, this this

774
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: this gets the years going. Like I said earlier, Yeah, yeah, absolutely,

775
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 1: I mean I love that even you know, with I

776
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: guess the mystery even makes the these tales resonate even

777
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:17,919
Speaker 1: even more so, Like if it were. If it were

778
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:19,919
Speaker 1: more clear that we were just talking about a bunch

779
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 1: of cloaks, you know, or just basic cloak metaphors, then uh,

780
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be as magical. Now, well, from here, let's

781
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: let's travel over to ancient Egypt, because we mentioned earlier

782
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: the idea of sun disks and um. There are several

783
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: directions to go in when considering the sun disc in

784
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: ancient Egypt, but the one that probably comes to mind

785
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: most readily, of course, is the state worship of the

786
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: sun disc often under Menno tap the fourth. This was

787
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 1: a basic basically, he he was he decreed that, okay,

788
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 1: we're gonna put the pan be on more or less aside,

789
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: We're gonna we're gonna instead of focusing on on the

790
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 1: pantheon or are certain individuals in the pantheon of gods,

791
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: we're just going to worship this glorious sun disc often

792
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 1: and um, we could do a whole episode on this

793
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: because it's such a fascinating story. But basically, this was

794
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: an unpopular move that was reversed after his death. You know,

795
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: it's it's it's tough to introduce a new god and

796
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 1: a new twist on religion. And expect everyone else to

797
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:32,399
Speaker 1: just stay with that change. Yeah. Now, I know there

798
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,719
Speaker 1: are some people who claim here that that Amenhotep is

799
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: in some ways like the inventor of monotheism. I think

800
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: that might be a little bit oversimplifying the issue. It

801
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: seems from what I recall, I haven't studied this deeply

802
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:47,760
Speaker 1: in a while, but it seems like from what I recall,

803
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 1: the the attend sun Disc that he was revering was

804
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: sort of like already a figure in Egyptian religion, but

805
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 1: now he said like, well, this is now just the

806
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: only god that we're going to worship, and the other

807
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 1: ones are all subordinate to that god. Yeah, yeah, this

808
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 1: is this is this is basically my understanding as well. Yeah,

809
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: there's there's if you're saying that he converted the Egyptians

810
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 1: to monotheism, that's yeah, that's that's exaggerating a bit. But

811
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 1: certainly the sun Disc in general pops up in various

812
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 1: places throughout Egyptian iconography and oftentimes looks similar to what

813
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 1: we might think of as a halo today. So just

814
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 1: to run through a few key examples that I think

815
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 1: illustrate this, Well, first of all, there's there's not the

816
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,720
Speaker 1: sky goddess who's sometimes rendered as a giant nude woman

817
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: arched above the earth. Um. You can look up images

818
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 1: of this. It's where you know, it's like she has

819
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:42,960
Speaker 1: she's kind of in uh cat cow, I guess yoga wise, uh,

820
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 1: but she is the vaulted sky. But I don't, I

821
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 1: don't know that yoga pose. Tell me, Oh, it's you know,

822
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: you're on all fours and you're kind of like you're

823
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: either like a cat or you like a cow. Okay,

824
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 1: you should try it. It's great for the spine. But

825
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 1: but yeah, she's kind of in that position, and her

826
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: arched body is the cosmos. Like you you're looking up

827
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 1: at her belly when you're looking up at the stars.

828
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: But sometimes she's seen as she's represented as a giant

829
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: cow with star markings and a sun disc positioned between

830
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 1: the cow's horns. Again, she's associated with the sky she

831
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,160
Speaker 1: uh uh and this also signify according to Geraldine Pinch

832
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: in Egyptian mythology, this signifies her as the sky god

833
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 1: lifting up the sun god ray Or or Hurrah, and

834
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 1: she mentions that this quote becomes the insignia of several goddesses,

835
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: so ray or Raw the Sun God himself is depicted

836
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: in various ways as well, including a sun disc with

837
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: a scarebon it or in it. But you also see

838
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 1: him depicted, as you know, in his hybrid form with

839
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: the sun disc above his head or on top of

840
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 1: his head. Now to be clear, you see this with

841
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,640
Speaker 1: other deities and characters in the Egyptian pantheon as well.

842
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 1: The symbol of their role or entity is simply stacked

843
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: atop their head like a hat, like they made like

844
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 1: a scorpion is up on your head to signify, uh,

845
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: you know that you're scorpion like qualities, etcetera. Um. So again,

846
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: think about the necessity of delivering information through symbols. There

847
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 1: are only so many ways to present the idea of

848
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 1: man plus son equal Sun God, right, and it's just

849
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: here's a man, or here's a hybrid of a man,

850
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 1: and then here's the sun and they are the Sun God.

851
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 1: When you were talking about the goddess Newt with the

852
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: representation as the cow with the sun disc above the head,

853
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 1: I was trying to think, is this the same as

854
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: the imagery I've already seen or is there another ancient

855
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 1: Egyptian deity or figure often depicted as a bo vine

856
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,879
Speaker 1: with a with a halo or sun disc over its head.

857
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: And I think the thing I was thinking about was

858
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 1: the oppicue bull, which is I think somewhat different. So

859
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: there's another one. Apparently ancient Egyptian religion has multiple bulls

860
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 1: with halos, I mean, in the loose sense of halo,

861
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 1: a bull with the sun disc between its horn. Well, um,

862
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 1: that I actually have the answer to that, and that

863
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: is because APIs Uh is the offspring of the said

864
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 1: to be the offspring of another Egyptian goddess, and that

865
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 1: is hath Or, and she's the golden goddess of childbirth um.

866
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: And she's often depicted as a beautiful woman with a

867
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 1: red solar disc positioned above her head between a pair

868
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 1: of cow horns, and she's associated with raw and ray

869
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: as well. I think it's kind of complex and like

870
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 1: it varies, like sometimes she's more like the offspring and

871
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 1: other times she's more like a consort um, etcetera. Or

872
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: it seemed a little ambiguous when I was reading about it,

873
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: but but yeah, so the the appis bowl is the

874
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: offspring of hath Or. Hath Or is tied to the

875
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: sun god, so it's it's like the sun disc is

876
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 1: there to show that they are aligned or descended from him. Now,

877
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 1: if the scholars that you were looking at earlier, if

878
00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 1: their theory about the history of the halo iconography that

879
00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 1: led to Christian religion is true, even the it would

880
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 1: sort of make sense to look at the oppice bowl

881
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 1: or any of these gods you've been talking about with

882
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 1: a sun disc over their head and say, ah, that

883
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 1: inspired the the Christian halo symbol. It seems like at

884
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 1: least they were arguing that's not the case, which if

885
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: they're correct about that, that would just make it seem

886
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: like almost a case of cultural convergent evolution, right, something

887
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: that just so naturally comes to mind that multiple different

888
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 1: cultures have produced very similar imagery. Yeah. Now, I mean,

889
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,280
Speaker 1: part of it could be I just haven't come across

890
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: and read an argument to the contrary, But yeah, it

891
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: seems like it's just a situation of different people's playing

892
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:39,760
Speaker 1: with some of the same symbols and doing the obvious

893
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: things with those symbols. Because while it might seem like

894
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: this would be a great connection, Like it seems like

895
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,359
Speaker 1: you could put Um hath Or on your conspiracy board

896
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,360
Speaker 1: and then put Um the archangel Michael on your on

897
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:53,720
Speaker 1: your conspiracy board and just draw a line between the two.

898
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 1: It does not seem as if there's actually a line

899
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 1: to be drawn there, you know, in the actual spread

900
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 1: of embolism, and you know, artistic motifs. It might actually

901
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: go back more to Humbaba or HuaHua, right, but the

902
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: or just generally the Mesopotamian concept. But I've got another one,

903
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 1: another one from the pre Christian ancient world with some

904
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 1: interesting uh similarities to halo iconography. And this would be

905
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,280
Speaker 1: the Achaian halo. Could you believe that there is something

906
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 1: like a halo in the Iliad? This this got me

907
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 1: by surprise as well. Yeah, yeah, I guess a lot

908
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: of people have read this and not necessarily noticed the similarities. Again,

909
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 1: you know, they're always gonna be some differences, but the

910
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:40,720
Speaker 1: similarities are interesting. Um. So, there's one passage in book

911
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 1: eighteen of the Iliad that that strikes me as very

912
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 1: very pretty darn halo ish. So it comes in book

913
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:51,439
Speaker 1: eighteen of the Iliad. The context is that the great

914
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 1: Achaean warrior Achilles, he learns that his beloved companion Patroclus

915
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 1: has been killed in battle by the Ojan hero hector,

916
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 1: and the exact relationship between Achilles and patric LUs has

917
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: been the subject of enormous debate over the centuries. At

918
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,320
Speaker 1: the very least, they are supposed to be the closest

919
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: of friends, you know, they're brothers in arms, their confidants.

920
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: Some scholars also believe there's an implication that their lovers

921
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 1: that's not stated explicitly, but some really think it's sort

922
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: of there subtly in the text. Whatever the exact nature

923
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: of their relationship, they care very deeply for one another,

924
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,800
Speaker 1: and Patroclus is killed in battle, and when Achilles learns

925
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: that Patroclus has died, he almost literally goes insane with grief,

926
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: and then that grief turns into rage and a thirst

927
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 1: for vengeance. And the Trojans and the Achaeans are in

928
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: the middle of fighting to claim Patroclus's body from the battlefield.

929
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: So the goddess Athena intervenes and she pours her godpower

930
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 1: into Achilles so that he can be comes so frightening

931
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 1: that the Trojans will flee in terror, and Patroclus's body

932
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,840
Speaker 1: can be brought back behind the Achaean lines. And the

933
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: way this is visually depicted is very interesting. So I

934
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 1: want to read from actually from the recent translation of

935
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 1: the Iliad by Caroline Alexander, which is very good. Rachel

936
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 1: and I started reading this. We we haven't made it

937
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: all the way through yet, but we we started reading

938
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: this and I really like it. So if you're looking

939
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 1: to read the Iliad for the first time or the fiftieth,

940
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 1: I recommend this one. Um. But the passage here goes

941
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 1: like this. Achilles, beloved of Zeus, arose and Athena cast

942
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 1: the tasseled aegis about his mighty shoulders, she shining among goddesses.

943
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 1: Encircled round his head a cloud of gold, and from

944
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 1: it blazed bright, shining fire. And as when smoke rising

945
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: from a city reaches the clear high air from a

946
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: distant land, which enemy men fight round, and they the

947
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 1: whole day long are pitted in hateful warfare around their

948
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 1: city walls. But with the sun's setting, the beacon fires

949
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 1: blaze torch upon torch, and flaring upward, the glare becomes

950
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,440
Speaker 1: visible to those who live around, in the hope that

951
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:18,359
Speaker 1: they might come with ships as allies against destruction. So

952
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 1: from achilles head the radiance reached the clear high air,

953
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,240
Speaker 1: and going away from the wall. He stood at the ditch,

954
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 1: nor did he mix with the Achaeans, for he observed

955
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: his mother's knowing command, and standing there he shouted, and

956
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 1: from the distance Pallace Athena cried out to unspeakable was

957
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 1: the uproar he incided in the Trojans, as when a

958
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 1: clarion voice is heard, when chries the trumpet of life,

959
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 1: destroying enemies who surround a city. Such then was the

960
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: clarion voice of Eacities. And when they heard the brazen

961
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 1: voice of Eacities, the spirit and each man was thrown

962
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,879
Speaker 1: in turmoil. The horses, with their fine man wheeled their

963
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:04,879
Speaker 1: chariots back, for in their hearts they forebode distress to come.

964
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 1: And the charioteers were struck from their senses when they

965
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 1: saw the weariless, terrible fire above the head of Pelias's

966
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 1: great hearted son blazing. And this the gleaming eyed goddess

967
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 1: Athena caused to blaze. That's wonderful. I mean, that's the

968
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 1: that's the spotlight of the gods right there, that's the

969
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: light of Athena shining through Achilles, through achilles brain and

970
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: through his rage. Yeah, it's it's it's amazing. So there's

971
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: some things in common with the melam or milamu. Uh,

972
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:38,879
Speaker 1: some things in common with what could later be seen

973
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: in Christian halo's. You could say that the radiance here

974
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 1: is a phenomenon of light. It's described as blazing like fire,

975
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 1: like a beacon of light. Uh. It surrounds the head.

976
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 1: It is a godpower. It's conferred supernaturally, and it strikes

977
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 1: terror in the heart of those who behold it. Wow. Yeah,

978
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 1: I I absolutely you love that. And of course this,

979
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 1: this especially is one of those examples that you can

980
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 1: easily tie into ideas concerning the bicameral mind. You know,

981
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: the idea that, especially in this moment, that Achilles is

982
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 1: you know, completely overcome by this. Uh, this this inspired rage. Um.

983
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 1: But but it's but one interesting thing here is you

984
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,399
Speaker 1: would never, no matter how you're looking at Achilles here,

985
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 1: you probably would not make the argument that Achilles is

986
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 1: in an enlightened state, that he has no he is

987
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 1: experiencing enlightenment. Um. And yet that is another way that

988
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: you see halo or halo like um symbols used in

989
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 1: other artistic traditions, particularly in Buddhist traditions. Oh yeah, because

990
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: there's a whole class of of halo or aureole type

991
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:52,959
Speaker 1: glows that can be found throughout Hindu and Buddhist art. Yeah,

992
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:55,759
Speaker 1: and in Tibetan art, for example, You're a form of

993
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:59,800
Speaker 1: a halo is often used to signify enlightenment and or divinity.

994
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 1: You'll see it on the Buddha himself, but also on

995
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 1: important monks. And I was reading a description of a

996
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:10,280
Speaker 1: twelfth century Buddha from Kurt Batterans Tibet in India Buddhist

997
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:14,200
Speaker 1: Traditions and Transformations, two thousand fourteen. From the mat quote,

998
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,840
Speaker 1: he this is just his description of this particular work. Quote.

999
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 1: He sits on a lotus, conveying ideas of purity and

1000
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 1: perhaps suggesting his radiance in a cosmic realm, and his

1001
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 1: head is encircled by a flaming halo. So b Aren't

1002
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:32,839
Speaker 1: also describes a Buddhas statue that, in its original form

1003
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 1: seems to have possessed a halo that was surrounded by branches,

1004
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,280
Speaker 1: in reference to the Bodhi tree under which the Buddha

1005
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: first attained enlightenment. Yeah, and I feel like I'm not certain,

1006
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: but I feel like I've seen depictions of the Buddha

1007
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,840
Speaker 1: surrounded by fire. Yeah. We see this kind of flaming

1008
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 1: nimbus in Chinese and also in Islamic traditions as well. Uh,

1009
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:57,719
Speaker 1: there's also a really neat when in Japanese traditions that's

1010
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:01,840
Speaker 1: referred to as the carea flame. Carea is essentially like

1011
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 1: a Japanese garuda, you know, the sub bird like magical

1012
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:10,240
Speaker 1: holy creature. Um. But the carra flame here is often

1013
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 1: represented as a kind of traditional halo behind the head,

1014
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 1: this kind of hoop design, but with portions, at least

1015
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 1: portions of it on fire. Um, and I included an

1016
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 1: image of you here, image of it here for you,

1017
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 1: Joe um described as the carua inco. Yeah, it's almost

1018
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: like it's like a hoop with a bonfire at each

1019
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 1: of the cardinal directions on it. Now, if we broaden

1020
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:36,440
Speaker 1: our definition from halo to also things that are more

1021
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:40,640
Speaker 1: like you know, the ariolas and even uh mandola, which

1022
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 1: is a kind of halo that emanates from or behind

1023
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 1: the entire body, you know, kind of kind of in

1024
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 1: keeping with those those various auras of of the monster

1025
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: we described earlier, of whom baba there. There are plenty

1026
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 1: more examples as well. We certainly see this in Christian traditions,

1027
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: but it's also widespread throughout the iconography of India, particularly

1028
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 1: Buddhist images and in Hinduism. Statues are often depicted with

1029
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 1: a uh prahamandela placed above the statue and particularly the

1030
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 1: head to indicate hallowed status, and these are often very ornate,

1031
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 1: with animals and decorative designs in them uh sometimes you know,

1032
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 1: they're often crafted of shining metal with red paint, and

1033
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 1: they're signifying the object or being here as as something

1034
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 1: that should be venerated now and looking at images of

1035
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 1: the problem Mandala, one thing I really like about the

1036
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 1: especially compared to a lot of the Christian iconography of

1037
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 1: the halo, which is often very smooth, it's just kind

1038
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 1: of a radiance or it's a smooth looking almost gold

1039
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 1: metal type disc. The problem Mandala is very textured. It's

1040
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 1: very busy, there's a lot of stuff happening in it.

1041
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:52,040
Speaker 1: You you almost get more of the sense of the

1042
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 1: complexity and the almost like uh, I don't know, like

1043
00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 1: teeming ant like radiance of the lexity of the real world. Now,

1044
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 1: another very I think a pretty famous rendition of the

1045
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 1: prohab Mandala that a lot of you've probably seen is

1046
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 1: when you see statues of the dance of Shiva, there's

1047
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 1: kind of this uh, this flaming hoop that is around

1048
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 1: Shiva uh, and it is um. It's it's less it's

1049
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:22,600
Speaker 1: less intricate as this, like it's not a big solid thing.

1050
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 1: It is more of a hoop. But that's probably one

1051
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 1: that a lot of you've seen before. And I believe

1052
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 1: this is typically referred to as a as anaraja. Yeah,

1053
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 1: like a big hoop halo surrounding the entire body with

1054
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:37,880
Speaker 1: the flames all around. It's almost like, I mean, it's

1055
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 1: um coming back in the other sense. So we've talked

1056
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 1: about the way that objects in the natural world like

1057
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 1: the sun, might cause you to want to frame an

1058
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 1: image of a god as something that's emanating light or

1059
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 1: has its head surrounded by a glowing or gleaming disk.

1060
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 1: But it just occurred to me also, I mean, I

1061
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 1: wonder in what ways could you could you talk about

1062
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 1: just the practical necessities of framing the subjects of art

1063
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:11,320
Speaker 1: as having an influence on on these various traditions of

1064
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 1: halos and orioles and and problem mondalas and things like that,

1065
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 1: because often these things do serve as a frame there

1066
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 1: like a visual focusing tool. Yeah, certainly they It tells

1067
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:26,520
Speaker 1: you where to look at, what to focus on. I'm

1068
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:29,920
Speaker 1: looking at a dance of Shiva within the not not

1069
01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 1: a raja that uh, it's got a bunch of snakes. Yeah, yeah,

1070
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 1: it again. It's just so interesting to look at how

1071
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 1: even within a particular religion or um or you know,

1072
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 1: regional tradition, over time you'll see so many different takes

1073
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 1: on it. Like artists have just always had to, uh,

1074
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: you know, sort of reinvent in this case the halo

1075
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 1: or something like a halo. You know, what can I

1076
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 1: do that that sets it apart, That makes it exciting again,

1077
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 1: that makes it uh, you know, convey the power, the majesty,

1078
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 1: the you know, the rage or whatever it is, the

1079
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 1: the the enlightenment, whatever you're trying to convey through the imagery.

1080
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:15,000
Speaker 1: How to keep that present? That's well put um, which

1081
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 1: which leads me to Mortal Kombat. Um. There's a just

1082
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 1: in passing and we mentioned fictional characters earlier. There In

1083
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 1: the latest rendition, there is a goddess character named centre

1084
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 1: On and you get to change the way your characters look.

1085
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 1: And one of the things you can do is you

1086
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:33,160
Speaker 1: change the various halo like things emanating around her head? Um,

1087
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 1: and uh yeah, it's it's actually quite interesting, like it's

1088
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 1: gonna be rocks, Is it gonna be jewels? Is it

1089
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 1: gonna be something you know, nature like stick like at all?

1090
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:41,800
Speaker 1: But uh, you know, ultimately they managed to work a

1091
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of what we're talking about into

1092
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 1: that particular character design. Now, in any of those uh

1093
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 1: like w W E Build a Wrestler games, can you

1094
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:54,919
Speaker 1: build a wrestler with the halo? I bet you could.

1095
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 1: I don't remember it specifically, but I bet there was

1096
01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 1: some sort of hokey looking halo that you could put

1097
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:01,440
Speaker 1: on a character. There's probably been somebody who's wrestled in

1098
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 1: a uh, you know, a goofy angel costume. Now I'm well,

1099
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 1: you know now that I say that, though, I bet

1100
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:10,960
Speaker 1: there's a luchador that has a halo. There are a

1101
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 1: lot of luchadors that have uh you know, Catholic imagery

1102
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:18,600
Speaker 1: tied up in their masks a halo, does he well,

1103
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 1: not Santo, but there are others, Like you know, there

1104
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 1: are other Catholic themed luchadors. And I bet there's one

1105
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 1: that I'm just not thinking of that maybe mystico or

1106
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:30,840
Speaker 1: somebody has some sort of Halo iconography wrapped up in

1107
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:34,560
Speaker 1: their design. That's homework for next time. Yeah, to come

1108
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 1: back and report. Yeah, so, Luca fans out there, let

1109
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 1: me know who I'm forgetting. Okay, Well, I think that's

1110
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:44,480
Speaker 1: got to wrap it up for part one. Yeah. Yeah,

1111
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 1: Well this has been fun and it it lays the

1112
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 1: groundwork for the next episode, where we'll I think will

1113
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:52,280
Speaker 1: inevitably touch touch on some more you know, cultural examples

1114
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,160
Speaker 1: and cultural ideas of halos. But we'll also get into

1115
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 1: some of the optics that we tease briefly in this episode,

1116
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 1: and of course, in the meantime, we'd love to hear

1117
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 1: from everybody. You know, what are your favorite examples of

1118
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:09,160
Speaker 1: halo likenography from art history, from archaeological uh finds, etcetera.

1119
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 1: From fiction you know, or they're they're particularly particularly interesting

1120
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 1: renditions of of halo imagery that you like. I was

1121
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:19,720
Speaker 1: always partial to uh um, what's his name, uh, Michael

1122
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:23,400
Speaker 1: William Kaluda's angel drawings. He would do. He had some

1123
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:26,120
Speaker 1: very bizarre looking angel drawings that he created with like

1124
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 1: flaming halos and halos of eyes and the like so,

1125
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:32,320
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's some other great examples out there, so

1126
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 1: send them our away in the meantime as well, if

1127
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:37,680
Speaker 1: you would like to listen to other episodes of Stuff

1128
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, you can find the Stuff to

1129
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 1: Blow your Mind feed wherever you get your podcasts. Uh

1130
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 1: there you will find core episodes science and culture on

1131
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:50,640
Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays. You'll find listener mails on Mondays, Wednesday,

1132
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:52,960
Speaker 1: that's the that's the the day we bust out our

1133
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 1: short form artifact episodes. And Friday it's Weird House Cinema.

1134
01:03:56,960 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 1: That's right, you gotta catch the mall uh so huge.

1135
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson.

1136
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 1: If you would like to get in touch with us

1137
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,400
Speaker 1: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1138
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 1: a topic for the future, just to say hello, you

1139
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:13,400
Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your

1140
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 1: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production

1141
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio,

1142
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:29,280
Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1143
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 1: you listening to your favorite shows