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Speaker 1: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a

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Speaker 1: CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts

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Speaker 1: in Europe, Russia, and in Asia.

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Speaker 2: And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East

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Speaker 2: and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive

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Speaker 2: our adversaries.

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Speaker 1: Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy

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Speaker 1: theories large and small.

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Speaker 2: Could they be true? Or are we being manipulated?

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Speaker 1: This is mission implausible. Our guest today is Terry Wurtz.

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Speaker 1: He's a friend of ours. Actually, he's a retired US

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Speaker 1: Air Force commander, a NASA astronaut, and was on the

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Speaker 1: International Space Station. He's a graduate of the Air Force Academy.

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Speaker 1: He studied in France, he worked in Russia, and he

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Speaker 1: was a part of the team that achieved the fastest

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Speaker 1: circumnavigation of Earth. And to top it all off, he

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Speaker 1: just announced his candidacy for the US Senate in Texas.

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Speaker 3: The race to unseen US Senator John Cornham from Texas

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Speaker 3: now has its first Democratic contender. Former astronaut Terry Urts

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Speaker 3: launched his campaign yesterday. Senator Cornyn has held this seat

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Speaker 3: since two thousand and two verts posted this video on

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Speaker 3: x describing himself as a common sense Democrat and an

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Speaker 3: Air Force veteran Attorney General. Kinpax then threw his hat

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Speaker 3: and ring back in April. The primary election happens in

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Speaker 3: March of next year.

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Speaker 1: So thanks for talking to us today, Terry, really appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, how many combat missions did you fly?

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Speaker 4: I flew forty five in Iraq, So I had to

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Speaker 4: verify that for the campaign, because you don't want to

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Speaker 4: If you put out forty four then they'll run negative

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Speaker 4: ads against you. So I literally went through my logbook.

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Speaker 1: So we're eager to talk to you about your career

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Speaker 1: and your plans and congratulate you on your Senate run.

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Speaker 1: And it seems to me at least that you're a

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Speaker 1: shoeing now since you've appeared on the Joe Rogan Show.

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Speaker 4: No, I'm a shoe in because I was on the

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Speaker 4: Mission Impossible. That's the key there, you go, Yeah, tell

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Speaker 4: how is the Rogan thing?

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Speaker 1: Are you going to go back on again?

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Speaker 4: I hope so hopefully Joe will have you on there.

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Speaker 4: You know, I'm run in the space of I'm running

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Speaker 4: as a Democrat, but I'm very much a common sense

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Speaker 4: democrat and kind of a big tent democrat, you know.

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Speaker 4: So I'm not on the progressive side. I probably would

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Speaker 4: lose in New York City based on our recent results there,

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Speaker 4: but I'm trying to win in Texas. So I think

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Speaker 4: that's the kind of thing that Joe's interested in. There's

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Speaker 4: been a lot of national attention as to what the

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Speaker 4: heck's happening with our politics, so I'm trying to bring

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Speaker 4: some sanity back to that.

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Speaker 1: We would appreciate that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know whether to start light or or

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Speaker 2: or go aheadvy idea, but let's start with I think

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Speaker 2: the most important thing sort of Terry is a former astronaut.

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Speaker 2: Are you a Star Wars guy or a Star Trek guy?

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Speaker 2: So I was.

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Speaker 4: I watched a lot more Star Wars when I was

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Speaker 4: a kid. I remember when the first movie came out,

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Speaker 4: and when Darth Vader walked in, it was like the

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Speaker 4: most terrifying thing that I'd ever seen in my life.

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Speaker 4: But in recent years I've had so many Star Trek

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Speaker 4: connections it's crazy. A buddy of mine was friends with

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Speaker 4: Scott Bakula, who was a commander on Star Trek Enterprise,

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Speaker 4: the old TV show, So I flew out with him

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Speaker 4: in a T thirty eight after a spaceflight, and I

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Speaker 4: actually was on Star Trek Enterprise. And there was probably

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Speaker 4: five years of my NASA astronaut career where if you

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Speaker 4: googled my name, the fact I was an astronaut didn't

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Speaker 4: come up. The only thing that came up was the

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Speaker 4: fact I was on Star Trek Enterprise like three seconds

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Speaker 4: wearing one of those costumes. You know, I was just

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Speaker 4: sitting there flipping switches and that's all I did.

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Speaker 2: But seriously, on that, yeah, Star Wars, Yeah, give sort

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Speaker 2: of a dystopian pessimistic view of our future. And Star

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Speaker 2: Trek is where we all come together to collaborate, right,

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Speaker 2: to do great things, right humanity does. And you know,

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Speaker 2: you've been inside the deep state, you've been a fighter pilot,

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Speaker 2: you understand how the American goverment work works, and not

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Speaker 2: running for office, you also you look in to collaborate

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Speaker 2: and you're look into like achieve things. So what's your

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Speaker 2: view of the American future and what is it you

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Speaker 2: want to achieve?

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Speaker 4: That is a really interesting point. I hadn't thought of

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Speaker 4: the dystopian versus positive now trying to work in j

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Speaker 4: at the air Force Academy, I boxed and I did judo.

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Speaker 4: We had to do all these wrestle and stuff, and

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Speaker 4: then judo we called it the Captain Kirk move, where

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Speaker 4: you would grab the guy and then flip him over

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Speaker 4: your shoulder. And CIA that was probably like you did

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Speaker 4: that before breakfast every day. But then the Air Force

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Speaker 4: we didn't do it that often, but we learned that.

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Speaker 4: We learned that Captain Kirk move exactly. You know my

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Speaker 4: vision for America, there's a what's the guy's name? Russo,

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Speaker 4: one of the French philosophers came here in the eighteen

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Speaker 4: hundreds and he did the you know, the world tour

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Speaker 4: all around America. He wanted to figure out what was

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Speaker 4: going on here in the New World. And when he

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Speaker 4: came away, he said something very profound. He said, America

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Speaker 4: is great because America is good. And his point was

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Speaker 4: the reason why this country's doing so well is because

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Speaker 4: of our fundamental goodness. And I think we need to

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Speaker 4: get back to that. Like what we're seeing now with

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Speaker 4: this current administration is badness. I mean there's like it's

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Speaker 4: morally reprehensible to send law enforcement dressed like Navy seals

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Speaker 4: with face masks on grabbing people off the street and

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Speaker 4: throwing them in unmasked cars. That is not America having grievances,

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Speaker 4: constantly complaining about people, constantly attacking people constantly. This is

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Speaker 4: not good. This is not what America is about. And Jerry,

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Speaker 4: before we got started, we were talking about some interesting

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Speaker 4: parallels with the nineteen thirty. That's probably more down the

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Speaker 4: Darth Vader and Star Wars track.

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Speaker 1: Maybe less whining would be a nice thing, wouldn't it great?

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Speaker 4: You know in the fighter community, and I'm sure it's

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Speaker 4: the same in the different agencies. If you whine like

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Speaker 4: you're crushed, there's no whining in fighter pilots, like there's

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Speaker 4: no crying in baseball. Oh my god, the grievances that

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Speaker 4: kept spewed out of this man's mouth every day. There's

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Speaker 4: going to be generations of psychologists, residents programs that study

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Speaker 4: just how warped of a brain this current president has.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you sort of a basic question, because

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Speaker 1: we don't often have fighter pilots and astronauts on which

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Speaker 1: was more fun and rewarding forced pilot were national Because

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Speaker 1: I know for sure being a politician is not going

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Speaker 1: to be the.

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Speaker 4: Fo No, No, we've been laughing. Yea, if I it'll

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Speaker 4: be the third coolest job I've ever had, being a

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Speaker 4: fighter pile. You know, I'm a fighter pilot. That's just

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Speaker 4: who I am. It's so cool to strap on an

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Speaker 4: F sixteen, the way the stick is on the right

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Speaker 4: and the throttles is on the left, and the seats

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Speaker 4: lean back so like the jet just fits you like

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Speaker 4: a glove, and you get to the point where you

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Speaker 4: just think and that you can make the airplane go.

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Speaker 4: But it's just the coolest thing flying in F sixteen.

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Speaker 4: It's so maneuverable, goes to nine gs, accelerates like crazy.

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Speaker 4: But on the other hand, like leaving Earth on a

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Speaker 4: rocket and floating, floating is pretty cool like that, you

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Speaker 4: can't be beat looking down at the planet, it's the

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Speaker 4: most beautiful thing. Actually, you can't imagine unless you've seen

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Speaker 4: it yourself. You can't imagine how beautiful it is looking

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Speaker 4: out at the galaxy. Man, there's a lot of stars

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Speaker 4: out there. So I don't know which one the F

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Speaker 4: sixteens are cooler, but being an astronaut is probably more profound.

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Speaker 2: So it's almost as cool as blow to CIA.

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Speaker 4: I can't confirm or deny what that would be like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I think you could deny exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So Terry running with conspiracy theories and conspiracy. So

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Speaker 2: Marjorie Taylor Green recently wrote she posted that there was

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Speaker 2: once a great president that the American people loved. He

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Speaker 2: opposed Israel's nuclear program, and then he was assassinated. The

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Speaker 2: rest of the post goes on to basically sort of

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Speaker 2: slyly insinuate that JFK was killed by Mosad or the Jews.

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Speaker 2: Right and so in politics there seems to be this

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Speaker 2: increasing level of conspiracy theories that are creating violence. Right,

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Speaker 2: we saw what happened in Minnesota. This rightly conspiracy theorist

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Speaker 2: goes out and assassinates people. And then you've got a

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Speaker 2: US Senator, Mike Lee making fun of it all, saying, well,

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Speaker 2: it's just sort of the Marxist playing right or or

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Speaker 2: Nancy Pelosi's husband is ticked again by a right conspiracy

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Speaker 2: theorist and hit with a hammer, and people make fun

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Speaker 2: of it. And I'll even throw in. On the left,

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Speaker 2: there were people sort of saying that when Trump was

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Speaker 2: not assassinating the assassination attempt against him, that that was

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Speaker 2: staged to make him look good. I was wondering if

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Speaker 2: you could give me your sense of like where you

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Speaker 2: stand on and are you concerned about violence going into politics,

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Speaker 2: the kind of people that go into it, and sort

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Speaker 2: of how you deal with like crazy conspiracy theories from

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Speaker 2: some of your peers.

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Speaker 4: You know, as we're recording this, I just announced just

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Speaker 4: a couple of days ago, and I could show you.

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Speaker 4: And I started a new folder in my email last

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Speaker 4: night called weird and that mailbox is filling up very quickly.

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Speaker 4: I had a call with the local police department and

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Speaker 4: they were so excited that I was running and they're like, absolutely,

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Speaker 4: we're gonna check out your thing. You know, as an astronaut,

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Speaker 4: the police come and they check out your family's house

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Speaker 4: while you're in space. While I was in space, we

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Speaker 4: had a guy crawling around my yard in the middle

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Speaker 4: of the day. And the problem with that, right like

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Speaker 4: just at the CIA, you guys have to be right

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Speaker 4: a hunter percent of the time. If you're wrong, once

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Speaker 4: the bomb goes off, right, And the same thing with security,

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Speaker 4: you have to be right one hundred percent of the time.

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Speaker 4: I have a handgun. I have a handgun in each

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Speaker 4: night stand next to my bed. Two handguns. I've contacted

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Speaker 4: the local police. So absolutely, I'm concerned about this, and

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Speaker 4: it's insane. It's not only irresponsible, Trump goes way beyond irresponsible.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't just anybody making fun of Nancy Pelosi's husband.

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Speaker 4: It was Trump family members making fun of Nancy Pelosi's husband.

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Speaker 4: This is unacceptable. This is again, Jerry, we were just

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Speaker 4: talking about nineteen thirty three Germany. This is nineteen thirty

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Speaker 4: three Germany. You know this is not America. We don't

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Speaker 4: do political violence, and these Republicans are making fun of it.

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Speaker 4: That's we got to stop that. Man, we take We

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Speaker 4: got to turn the temperature down. And here's the thing,

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Speaker 4: here's the worst part about it. There are good human

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Speaker 4: beings who are Republicans. Of course, there's a lot of

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Speaker 4: normal Republicans. They don't say anything. They are quiet, they

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Speaker 4: know better, and they don't say anything. They know Trump

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Speaker 4: should have been in peach after the thing they didn't

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Speaker 4: vote to do. So, they know you shouldn't threaten people

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Speaker 4: with violence, and they don't say anything. They don't say

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Speaker 4: anything because they put their career and they put their

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Speaker 4: party above their country and above doing what's right. And

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Speaker 4: that's why I'm running. That's why I'm running for Senate.

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Speaker 2: Let's pause, per secret, We'll be right back.

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Speaker 1: Let me stay a little bit on the conspiracy theme

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Speaker 1: then a little bit. So as someone who's trained in

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Speaker 1: the Air Force and NASA, how do you view these

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Speaker 1: commercial space organizations? And I say conspiracy because Elon Musk's

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Speaker 1: big role in this. What's your view? Is it good

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Speaker 1: for the US? How do they integrate with NASA and

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Speaker 1: what we're doing.

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Speaker 4: There's a lot of different commercial space companies. Obviously SpaceX

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Speaker 4: is the biggest and most successful. Without the Falcon nine

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Speaker 4: SpaceX rocket, you know, the US government wouldn't be able

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Speaker 4: to do the things that it needs to do in space.

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Speaker 4: That rocket dominates the American launch industry and the global

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Speaker 4: launch industry. Last year I saw stat SpaceX launched like

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Speaker 4: ninety percent of the mass sent into orbit. That's not

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Speaker 4: the right number, but it's close. And everybody else, China, Russia,

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Speaker 4: and all the other American companies in Europe launched the

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Speaker 4: other ten percent, So they're important. They've also gotten a

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Speaker 4: huge amount of US government contracts over the years. Mister

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Speaker 4: Musk also donated three hundred million dollars to Trump's campaign

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Speaker 4: and then was immediately put in charge of the entire

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Speaker 4: government and given all the data of the entire government

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Speaker 4: for it. And by the way, he has an AI company.

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Speaker 4: And as you know, data is the currency the realm

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Speaker 4: in the AI world, and that's the difference between a

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Speaker 4: mega billion or trillion dollar AI company and a zero

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Speaker 4: dollar AI company. And now he has I don't know

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Speaker 4: what he has. One of the things I need to

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Speaker 4: do as a senator is to investigate that, to figure

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Speaker 4: out what data went to him. And it's not only SpaceX.

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Speaker 4: There's lots of other companies doing amazing things in stace.

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Speaker 4: That's great. And the more people spending money and the

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Speaker 4: more people employing engineers and building rockets and satellites, that's

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Speaker 4: really good for the space industry. It just needs to

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Speaker 4: be done in an ethical way. You know, it can't

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Speaker 4: be done in a corrupt way. And what we've seen

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Speaker 4: happen in the last few months, but DOJE is corruption

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Speaker 4: on the scale we've never seen. I mean, this puts

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Speaker 4: Rockefeller and Morgan into shame. It gives corruption a bad

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Speaker 4: name because it's so corrupt. As a senator, I'm going

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Speaker 4: to definitely investigate that and try and get to the

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Speaker 4: bottom of what happened. It's going to be tough, the

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Speaker 4: investigations and the reparations and the peristroika, if you will,

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Speaker 4: it needs to happen in the next administration. Knock on wood,

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Speaker 4: it's a democrat. Is going to be a lot of work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So on investigations, Terry, I was wondering, if you like,

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Speaker 2: on this show here and now, whether you're willing to

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Speaker 2: investigate how it is that you know that NASA has

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Speaker 2: hid the fact that we fake the mood landings for

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Speaker 2: so long, so many people still believe we went to

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Speaker 2: the moon.

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Speaker 1: Do you have a favorite conspiracy they related to space

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Speaker 1: and moon and all that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, flat Earth?

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Speaker 4: You know, well, Stanley Kubrick was the the time two

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Speaker 4: thousand and one. You know, there were some pretty big

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Speaker 4: filmmakers in the sixties. But Kubrick, I'll say this for

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Speaker 4: the first time on your podcast if you want, Stanley

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Speaker 4: Kubrick actually is the guy that filmed the moonlanding. But

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Speaker 4: he was such a perfectionist he had to film it

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Speaker 4: on site.

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Speaker 2: So how do you deal with people you know, you've

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Speaker 2: been in space, right, you know you've seen the Earth.

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Speaker 2: How do you deal with people who say the Earth

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Speaker 2: is flat? I mean, how would you because this is

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Speaker 2: part of the electorate. Now.

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Speaker 4: You know, Archimedes figured out that the Earth was round,

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Speaker 4: you know, several thousand years ago. It's not that hard.

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Speaker 4: You measure a shadow and then you walk a few

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Speaker 4: hundred miles, and then you measure this at the same time,

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Speaker 4: the same shadow, and it's a different shadow because the

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Speaker 4: Earth is round. And when I launched, you could see

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Speaker 4: the launch. People watched it right. This rocket launched and

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Speaker 4: it went to the east. Well, first was flat. I'd

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Speaker 4: still be flying to the east, but thankfully it's round,

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Speaker 4: and I came back around and was a bent able

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Speaker 4: to land. At the Kennedy Space Center, the Moon landing,

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Speaker 4: there were hundreds of thousands of people working on it.

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Speaker 4: I wasn't around during Apollo. I'm friends with buzz Aldrin.

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Speaker 4: Actually he punches people who play exactly. But I'm a politician,

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Speaker 4: so I can't do that. But yet I have to

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Speaker 4: wait till after my career. But hundreds of thousands of people,

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Speaker 4: the Russians were watching. They got radars, they've got cameras,

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Speaker 4: you know, so if we had not landed on the Moon,

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Speaker 4: they would have said something. And think about Bill Clinton,

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Speaker 4: he was not able to cover up Monica Lewinsky, So

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Speaker 4: how on the heck would NASA be able to cover

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Speaker 4: up the Apollo moonlandings with four hundred thousand people. So

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Speaker 4: it's just it's silly. And you can actually see pictures.

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Speaker 4: There's there's orbiters in orbit around the Moon now that

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Speaker 4: have taken pictures. You can see the first stage, the

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Speaker 4: different Apollo lunar landers. You can see all the astronaut footprints.

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Speaker 4: Or there's kind of like a mess, just like we're

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Speaker 4: Americans who make a mess everywhere we go. So there's

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Speaker 4: all their footprints are around the landers.

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Speaker 1: Plastic bags and cigarette butts, is golf ball.

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Speaker 4: You see the and it's like but it's not waving.

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Speaker 4: You can go on YouTube and see how I blocked

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Speaker 4: an alien spaceship. I was doing a spacewalk and this

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Speaker 4: guy's following the video of me doing the spacewalk and

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Speaker 4: there's a flash of something. I don't know what it is,

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Speaker 4: just a glint from the sun or maybe a piece

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Speaker 4: of dust floating. You see this little flash, right is

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Speaker 4: my hand like I'm working, and my hand blocks that

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Speaker 4: flash and the hin he's narrating his YouTube video breathlessly

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Speaker 4: and He's like their astronaut verts, just block the alien spaceship.

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Speaker 4: We've got two cameras well, there's one hundred cameras outside.

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Speaker 4: There's all kinds of cameras everywhere. So yes, I blocked

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Speaker 4: it in front of one camera, but not in front

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Speaker 4: of the other ten cameras that we're all looking in

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Speaker 4: that direction. The only thing I can say, everybody always

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Speaker 4: talks about area fifty one. Area fifty two is the

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Speaker 4: area you want to know about. That's all I'm gonna

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Speaker 4: That's all I'm gonna say about that.

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Speaker 2: Fair enough, So Terry, what before we went on, we

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Speaker 2: were talking a little bit about what's going on in Ukraine,

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Speaker 2: And yeah, when you were in the space station, you

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Speaker 2: delta lot with Russia bureaucracy and Russians, you know, decent

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Speaker 2: people talking to you know, in a dictatorship. But I

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Speaker 2: just wondering, but give us a sense of what you

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Speaker 2: see in Russia today is prime pushers of conspiracy theories? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: whole machine. If you wanted to say something about Russia,

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Speaker 2: having work with them firsthand, right, what would your sense

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Speaker 2: be about what we're dealing with.

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Speaker 4: I could talk about this for hours, So the whole

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Speaker 4: Putin regime is built on a foundation of lies, and

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Speaker 4: so it won't last forever. The lies will eventually just

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Speaker 4: like the Soviet Union was built on lies, it eventually fell.

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Speaker 4: Just like the Trump administration is built on the Grosso

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Speaker 4: Luga right, the big lie lies don't ever last forever.

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Speaker 4: They eventually come out. I love my time in Russia.

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Speaker 4: I have a lot of Russian friends. I love borsh,

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Speaker 4: I love the fish. I enjoyed it. I tried to

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Speaker 4: have dinner on the Russian segment of the space station

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Speaker 4: with the cosmonauts as often as I could. I tried

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Speaker 4: to learn language. I tried to learn expression. I try

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Speaker 4: to learn things they don't teach you in RUSSI class.

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Speaker 4: So I made the most of it. But I was there.

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Speaker 4: I could see some really disturbing things happening when I

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Speaker 4: was there. I had been going there for a decade,

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Speaker 4: but my training began in twenty twelve for this one mission,

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Speaker 4: and I was there on May ninth. They call it

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Speaker 4: Victory Day. It's truly the day after Victory Day. And

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Speaker 4: I walked around and I was like, this is really bizarre.

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Speaker 4: There are posters everywhere. This is like a cult. But

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Speaker 4: I remember it was just really weird. What a cult

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Speaker 4: like obsession they had with World War Two. And I thought, yeah,

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Speaker 4: we won World War Two, but we've moved on since then,

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Speaker 4: like we've done other things since World War Two. And

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Speaker 4: for them, they're just completely stuck in nineteen forty five

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Speaker 4: and they always have these things, these big monuments in

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Speaker 4: their cities. Nineteen forty one and nineteen forty five. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 4: they're forgetting nineteen thirty nine, in nineteen forty one, when

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Speaker 4: they were on the side of the Nazis, when they

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Speaker 4: actually started World War two with Hitler. That's like a

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Speaker 4: minor detail that everybody forgets. Trump is talking about how

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Speaker 4: great the Russia was and how they helped us win

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Speaker 4: World War two. It's like, yeah, well they started World

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Speaker 4: War two too, on the side of Hitler. So this

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Speaker 4: fact that it was this cult really it was really bizarre.

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Speaker 4: One day, I was walking around Moscow by myself and

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Speaker 4: there was a big mob and it was Navalney. Navalney

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Speaker 4: was having an approach because this was when Putin was coming

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Speaker 4: back after his four years as vice president essentially and

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Speaker 4: thinking wow. And then I was like, all right, I'm

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Speaker 4: going to go the other direction. I walked away. So

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Speaker 4: I was in space and one night I was there

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Speaker 4: with a guy named Sasha Samukuchayev and we were having

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Speaker 4: dinner quiet looking out the window. They have a big

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Speaker 4: window on the Russian segment, which is really cool. And

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Speaker 4: in Western Europe there's a lot of lights, so there's London,

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Speaker 4: in Paris and Berlin. As you go east has less

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Speaker 4: and less lights. And then all of a sudden, I

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Speaker 4: just saw these red flashes and we were over Ukraine.

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Speaker 4: This is twenty fifteen when the Russians had first invaded,

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Speaker 4: and it was like we didn't say a word, we

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Speaker 4: were just solemn. And this guy came back to Earth

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Speaker 4: and joined Dai Rossia Putin's party to promote the war

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Speaker 4: and to promote Putin. And three of the cosmonauts that

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Speaker 4: I flew with did that, And it's the most disappointing

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Speaker 4: and just angering thing. These men and women, one of

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Speaker 4: them is Ulena Sirovos say they know better, they know better,

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Speaker 4: they know right from wrong. They lived in America. They

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Speaker 4: know we're not Basically, we don't care about Russia. No

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Speaker 4: Texan that I know gives a crap about Russia other

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Speaker 4: than those war in Ukraine. Right, No one cares about Russia.

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Speaker 4: As long as they're not bothering anybody, we don't care.

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Speaker 4: They're just not that big of a deal anyway. So

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Speaker 4: it was a very very frustrating thing for me to

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Speaker 4: see people and you know what, they get more space flights.

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Speaker 4: If you promote putin, you get to fly in space again.

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Speaker 4: You get a nice apartment in Moscow. They all come

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Speaker 4: back and they get Lexus, SUVs and Mercedes, so you

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Speaker 4: get stuff for promoting the old man, and they do that,

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Speaker 4: and so it's a human nature thing that's been incredibly disappointing.

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Speaker 4: Not everybody, there are good cosmonauts, but that n that

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Speaker 4: number is pretty small.

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Speaker 2: Well good thing that could never happen in this country,

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Speaker 2: that cabinet numbers would go out of their way to

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Speaker 2: praise the president Kim Chunguin's style.

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Speaker 4: The dear Leader. Can you imagine a cabinet member behaving

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Speaker 4: the way these cabinet members are behaving. There's a word

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Speaker 4: I can't it's sick of fancy. I can't even that's

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Speaker 4: probably not a word I should use, but like, no, no, that's.

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Speaker 2: A good one.

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Speaker 1: But I think you know anybody who wants to be

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Speaker 1: like they need an enemy, They need somebody to blame,

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Speaker 1: and they need to create symbols and things, fake symbols,

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Speaker 1: and so for Putin the Great Patriotic War, World War

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Speaker 1: two is the symbol the thing that and since then

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Speaker 1: it's the awful West that's caused problems. You know, you

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Speaker 1: can't blame yourself for problems. You have to blame others,

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Speaker 1: and so they blame the West. So the cosmonaut you

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Speaker 1: work with, you know, they're stuck in that system. What

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Speaker 1: hurts me now is the Maga faithful and made those

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Speaker 1: enemies to blame other Americans. They've said it's the Democrats

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Speaker 1: and the Marxist whatever they call, you know, the deep state,

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Speaker 1: all these kind of things. Yeah, rather than blaming at

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Speaker 1: least the Russians are blaming some foreigners.

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Speaker 4: Right, they're not blaming themselves. I saw Ted Cruz one

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Speaker 4: time talking. He's like, whatever the issue was, I forget.

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Speaker 4: We need to stop worrying about this so we can

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Speaker 4: get back to focusing on our enemy, the Democrats. And

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Speaker 4: I was like, wait a minute, Ted, the other word

431
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 4: for Democrats is Texans or Americans.

432
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,680
Speaker 2: And I don't think any Democrat has called his wife ugly?

433
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,920
Speaker 4: Can you if somebody called my wife or my kid

434
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,800
Speaker 4: or anything my any family member, I'd have a problem

435
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 4: with that person, Like we would have issues.

436
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:14,000
Speaker 1: For a long time.

437
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 4: I want to ask you guys a question as CIA guys.

438
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,439
Speaker 4: So Vladimir Putin is this spy master. He's KGB, but

439
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 4: he was a spy in East Germany? Right, So does

440
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,200
Speaker 4: the CIA send our bet Like when you go to

441
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:29,960
Speaker 4: the you guys have a team and B team. I'm

442
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 4: sure there's like really good guys, there's like the top spies.

443
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 4: And then it's a little sensitive with Jerry on the

444
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 4: do you spend you do you send the a guy?

445
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,960
Speaker 4: What's the name of the CI school? The farm or

446
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 4: whatever I saw in a movie? Sometimes so the graduates

447
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:47,879
Speaker 4: of your school, do the do your best spies go

448
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 4: to Canada? Or do your do your best buies go

449
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 4: to Denmark? So he went to East Germany, I would

450
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 4: assume that the best KGB spies went to West Germany.

451
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: Came into the KGB in nineteen seventy five, and he

452
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,919
Speaker 1: spent this first like eleven years working in his hometown,

453
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 1: essentially following people who might be oppositionists or maybe foreigners

454
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 1: who visited. And finally he got his first quote overseas tour,

455
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,680
Speaker 1: and it was the East Germany, which was controlled obviously

456
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 1: by Soviet as part of the Soviet Bloc.

457
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,439
Speaker 4: That's equivalent of sending one of you guys to Canada.

458
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 2: Is the even worse? Actually, Although to answer your question,

459
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,200
Speaker 2: and this is going to like friggin kill me, to

460
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 2: a certain extent, yes, I think we do send some

461
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,879
Speaker 2: of our best and brightest and youngest to you know,

462
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 2: to go inside behind the curtain as it used to be,

463
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 2: into Russia. And that would be John. John was you know,

464
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,560
Speaker 2: sent into into Russia and some of our best and

465
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,199
Speaker 2: brightest and I didn't. But it also plays into it

466
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 2: also plays into what your strengths are. So I was

467
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 2: a European and an African guy and later a counter

468
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 2: terrorism guy. I think I would have sucked if I

469
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,160
Speaker 2: worked inside of Russia because it has it demands different

470
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 2: capabilities and different strengths, and so the strengths that you

471
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,919
Speaker 2: need to operate. I mean an F sixteen pilot and

472
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 2: a warhog pilot, right, you know, it's like they probably

473
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 2: doesn't mean one's better than the other, although probably an

474
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 2: F sixteen pilot maybe.

475
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 4: Is better looking.

476
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 2: They're better looking but yeah, I think it's it's maybe. Yeah,

477
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 2: we would send our certainly our top caliber folks into

478
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 2: that and Glannaber Putin, Plannier Putin just did not make

479
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 2: that grade.

480
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,400
Speaker 1: When it's true, it's true, I think he's created again

481
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,640
Speaker 1: a false narrative for himself. Now he's put out there

482
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,160
Speaker 1: that he worked with illegals and stuff, when in fact

483
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,159
Speaker 1: what he worked with was supporting terrorist groups. So it

484
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 1: was like the PLFP the Palestinian saying some Libyan groups

485
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 1: and others they would come to East Germany because they

486
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: were because they were away from you know, the West

487
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: and stuff to be, and the KGB guys would work

488
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: with them and support them and give them money and

489
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 1: that type of thing. And so he never was a general.

490
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 1: I think he might have been by the time record,

491
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:49,719
Speaker 1: but not senior.

492
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we'll be right back.

493
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,160
Speaker 1: Here's a hard question for a former Air Force guy,

494
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 1: what do you think of the Space Force?

495
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 4: Earth is only half the battle.

496
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 5: Our entire way of life depends on space, from banking

497
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 5: to farming to communication and navigation. We are here to

498
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 5: defend the freedom to operate in space, to be the

499
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 5: guardians the more way of life, and because space defines

500
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 5: every battle. We must protect a high ground.

501
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 4: I was actually a vocal promoter of Space Force. I

502
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 4: wrote an op ed in the Washington Post, and the

503
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 4: reason is that the way we organize our military, we

504
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 4: have the services do what we call organized, train and equip.

505
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 4: Right like they organized, they train and they equip. They

506
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 4: get the Air Force ready or the Army ready, and

507
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 4: then when it's time to go to combat, we have

508
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 4: the chain of command, which would be the Secretary of

509
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 4: Defense through the Secretary of the Air Force, through the

510
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 4: combatant command. So we have this different the military organized

511
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:06,479
Speaker 4: trains that equip and then the civilian we have two

512
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 4: different chains of command. We have an air force and

513
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:10,920
Speaker 4: army in the navy. The air is different than land,

514
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,479
Speaker 4: is different than sea, is different than space, and I

515
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 4: think is different than cyber So I think we need

516
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 4: a space force to organize training and equip, and also

517
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 4: a cyber force to organize training equip. Frankly, I think

518
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 4: you're going to have a better chance recruiting and retaining

519
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 4: the best computer nerds out of our colleges if they

520
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 4: got to go to a cyber force. I mean, that

521
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 4: would be pretty cool.

522
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 6: We're calling on all late night coders, early morning gamers,

523
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 6: self proclaimed space geeks, stargazing, science junkies, and especially square

524
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 6: peg in a round hole type bankers to shape the

525
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 6: only force created for the twenty first century.

526
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 4: So we're considered that your invitation.

527
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: Well, the NSA is this essentially belongs to the Defense

528
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: Department largely.

529
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 4: But there's Title ten, Title fifty, right, they do both,

530
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 4: but there are there's a difference between spying and conducting

531
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 4: military operations. You guys are more familiar than that what

532
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 4: I am. So I'm just saying that I think it

533
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 4: makes sense to and and space is different. I've done both.

534
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 4: I flow jets and I've been at space and the

535
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 4: kind of people that do both those are very different

536
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 4: kind of people. So I think it makes sense not

537
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 4: to create more bureaucracy, but I think less if you

538
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 4: did it right. Like every Army, Air Force, and Navy

539
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 4: all had their own little mini space wars, so if

540
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 4: you could just put them all in one, you could

541
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 4: create some efficiencies there.

542
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 2: So, as a fighter pilot, what do you think about

543
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: drones taking over? And that falls in between cyber and

544
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 2: the Army, that the Navy even and the Air Force,

545
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 2: it doesn't fit nicely. Into any of these, and of

546
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: course you know less and less reasons for manned aircraft.

547
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: So what's your sense of like where we're going militarily

548
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 2: and how the fighter pilots look at this. They put

549
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 2: you out of a job. Man.

550
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 4: I was a fighter pilot back in the nineties and

551
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 4: early two thousands, and predators were death. I mean it

552
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 4: was like the worst possible thing we could think of.

553
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 4: There's a group called Dos Ringos. There are these two

554
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 4: F sixteen pilot and they're really funny. They're on you

555
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 4: can find their songs and they have a song about predators,

556
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 4: about how it's like just the worst imaginable thing.

557
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 1: They shot down the predator.

558
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: That's one of less slime for me.

559
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 4: This shot down the predator and it.

560
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 2: Film barkely, Yeah, falling alone now.

561
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: They got down. That's one less start for me.

562
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 4: When I was a test pilot, this is probably two

563
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 4: thousand is ish. I was a chase on some of

564
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,439
Speaker 4: the drones. We had some big, giant reconnaissance drones. Global

565
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 4: Hawk is still in use today. So I did some

566
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 4: work with drones. And today when kids go to the

567
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 4: Air Force Academy, that's what they want to do. I

568
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 4: mean they want to be drone pilots, and the three

569
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 4: of us we've been following what's going on in Ukraine

570
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 4: a lot. I mean, the battlefield has changed. The naval

571
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 4: sea drones have just roid the Moscow's vaunted Black Sea Fleet.

572
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 4: The army battlefield. It was an artillery war the last

573
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 4: couple of years. It's a drone war now. And you know,

574
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 4: there's twenty thirty fifty kilometers dozens of miles of space

575
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 4: where they're just swarms of drones. You can't walk or

576
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 4: you die. So things have changed profoundly. So as a

577
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 4: fighter pilot, I would much rather fly in F sixteen

578
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,360
Speaker 4: and I would just be thankful that there's people doing

579
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 4: the drone stuff. That's just who I am personally. But

580
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 4: the drones are super important. And the drones that you

581
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 4: guys used during the Global War on Terror, the Predator

582
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 4: and the Reaper, those are not relevant in the Russia

583
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 4: Ukraine conflict because there's so much air defense. They would

584
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 4: just get shot down. I think the key thing about

585
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 4: drones is to be fast and agile and able to adapt.

586
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 4: I'm not sure that our military has kept up. Frankly,

587
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 4: I don't know that the US Army could fight a

588
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 4: modern war with an army like Russia that has millions

589
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 4: of drones. I mean, I don't know that we're there yet.

590
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 4: So as a senator, I'm going to make sure that

591
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 4: I do what I can to make sure our army

592
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 4: is up to speed. And what we can't do is

593
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 4: have a program and then we'll go through the whole

594
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 4: federal acquisition regulation process and you know, we'll stand up

595
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 4: a program office and the drone we'll be ready in

596
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 4: five years, and then we'll change the requirements and blah

597
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 4: blah blah. The Ukrainian, the Uda Loup, if you will.

598
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 4: The decision making time is like days, it's not weeks.

599
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 4: Got some soldier on the front line goes, hey, I

600
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 4: need the drone to hold a grenade instead of a

601
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 4: bomb or whatever. They and a couple of days later

602
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 4: they have what they want. I think we're far from

603
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 4: there and we need to get there or we're going

604
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 4: to get our butts kicked in the next war.

605
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they're a tool that can be used different

606
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: by the army, navy who likes and so Yeah, putting

607
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: it in one thing or making it a big program

608
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: is probably the death of it. And they hopefully We're

609
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: learning that from Ukraine.

610
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 4: You can teach us US and the Brits and others

611
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 4: have been training Ukrainians, but Man, we can train them

612
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 4: on how to march. Here's how you shoot an M

613
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 4: four or whatever like. They need to be training us.

614
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 4: They know how to fight this modern land war. And

615
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 4: I think that information flow needs to be coming a

616
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 4: lot more towards us than it does going away from us.

617
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 7: We'll continue next week with more of our conversation with

618
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 7: Texas senatorial candidate Terry Urns here on Mission Implausible. Mission

619
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 7: Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Seipher,

620
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 7: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission

621
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 7: Implausible is a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures

622
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 7: for iHeart Podcasts