1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:24,316 Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 2 00:00:24,356 --> 00:00:27,356 Speaker 1: where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 3 00:00:27,756 --> 00:00:31,756 Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. Are you one of the forty nine 4 00:00:31,796 --> 00:00:35,396 Speaker 1: point three million Americans who hit the road this Thanksgiving? 5 00:00:36,076 --> 00:00:39,676 Speaker 1: Are you perhaps listening to this in a car right now? 6 00:00:40,556 --> 00:00:43,076 Speaker 1: If either of these things is true, this is definitely 7 00:00:43,116 --> 00:00:45,876 Speaker 1: the episode for you. We're here to talk about how 8 00:00:45,956 --> 00:00:49,516 Speaker 1: cars have shaped the history of policing in America and 9 00:00:49,596 --> 00:00:52,556 Speaker 1: how the space of the car has been fundamental to 10 00:00:52,596 --> 00:00:55,436 Speaker 1: the definition of your rights under the Fourth Amendment to 11 00:00:55,516 --> 00:01:00,636 Speaker 1: the Constitution, specifically your right to privacy. To discuss this, 12 00:01:00,956 --> 00:01:03,756 Speaker 1: we're talking to Sarah Seo. She's a professor at the 13 00:01:03,836 --> 00:01:06,756 Speaker 1: University of Iowa's College of Law, and she's the author 14 00:01:06,756 --> 00:01:12,396 Speaker 1: of Policing the Open Road, How Cars Transformed American Freedom. Sarah, 15 00:01:12,476 --> 00:01:15,156 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me in reading your book. 16 00:01:15,716 --> 00:01:18,196 Speaker 1: I was really struck. The first thing that struck me 17 00:01:18,356 --> 00:01:20,316 Speaker 1: and maybe they should have been obvious to me before, 18 00:01:20,476 --> 00:01:24,476 Speaker 1: but it wasn't. Is that probably cars are the single 19 00:01:24,556 --> 00:01:30,916 Speaker 1: most significant technological event of the last hundred years in 20 00:01:30,956 --> 00:01:33,076 Speaker 1: American life. I mean, we talk a lot about the Internet. 21 00:01:33,076 --> 00:01:35,796 Speaker 1: We imagine that the transformation of social media is so enormous, 22 00:01:36,156 --> 00:01:38,036 Speaker 1: none of it seems to hold a candle to the 23 00:01:38,156 --> 00:01:42,436 Speaker 1: car as a transformative technology. Do you buy that? I mean, 24 00:01:42,476 --> 00:01:45,076 Speaker 1: do you think of the car is really the be all, 25 00:01:45,156 --> 00:01:47,876 Speaker 1: in the end all of technological change, making the computer 26 00:01:47,956 --> 00:01:51,076 Speaker 1: look kind of secondary. Well, in the twentieth century, we 27 00:01:51,156 --> 00:01:54,236 Speaker 1: call that the automobile age, like the Bronze age, right, 28 00:01:54,316 --> 00:01:57,756 Speaker 1: and so we've defined that century as defined by the 29 00:01:57,836 --> 00:02:02,316 Speaker 1: car and how it transformed our life, our culture, the 30 00:02:02,396 --> 00:02:05,476 Speaker 1: way our cities look, the way our countryside looks. So 31 00:02:05,636 --> 00:02:09,436 Speaker 1: my answer would be yes, it completely transformed almost every 32 00:02:09,476 --> 00:02:14,356 Speaker 1: aspect of our life. I want to talk about the 33 00:02:14,396 --> 00:02:18,196 Speaker 1: idea of privacy and how it has evolved over the 34 00:02:18,196 --> 00:02:21,276 Speaker 1: course of our century or the last century, really in 35 00:02:21,396 --> 00:02:25,116 Speaker 1: relationship to cars. And you say some really fascinating things 36 00:02:25,116 --> 00:02:28,156 Speaker 1: about this, starting with the idea that the idea of 37 00:02:28,236 --> 00:02:31,596 Speaker 1: privacy as a fundamental right was really just getting started 38 00:02:31,596 --> 00:02:34,916 Speaker 1: in the United States around the same time as the 39 00:02:35,036 --> 00:02:40,156 Speaker 1: rise of the automobile, probably initially almost by coincidence. But 40 00:02:40,196 --> 00:02:44,916 Speaker 1: then once those two ideas met up, things got tricky because, 41 00:02:44,956 --> 00:02:48,676 Speaker 1: according to the pre car conception, if I was inside 42 00:02:48,716 --> 00:02:51,916 Speaker 1: my home, I had a right to privacy, and if 43 00:02:51,956 --> 00:02:55,116 Speaker 1: I was outside on the street, I didn't have a 44 00:02:55,196 --> 00:02:59,436 Speaker 1: right to privacy, And cars raised the question of are 45 00:02:59,476 --> 00:03:02,916 Speaker 1: you at home or are you on the street. So 46 00:03:03,396 --> 00:03:06,556 Speaker 1: say something, if you will, about how courts and the 47 00:03:06,636 --> 00:03:09,836 Speaker 1: society tried to get a grip on that tween nature 48 00:03:09,836 --> 00:03:12,316 Speaker 1: of being in your car. So one of the main 49 00:03:12,436 --> 00:03:16,516 Speaker 1: themes of my book is that cars are just a 50 00:03:16,556 --> 00:03:22,596 Speaker 1: completely new space, and both judges and ordinary Americans were 51 00:03:22,596 --> 00:03:26,596 Speaker 1: trying to figure out what this new space exactly was. 52 00:03:27,236 --> 00:03:31,036 Speaker 1: So the way that ordinary Americans experienced their cars was 53 00:03:31,236 --> 00:03:33,756 Speaker 1: kind of like an extension of their homes. They saw 54 00:03:33,756 --> 00:03:38,076 Speaker 1: the car as a parlor or their boudoir. Right, Young 55 00:03:38,116 --> 00:03:41,836 Speaker 1: people moved from the parlor to the car to date 56 00:03:42,236 --> 00:03:44,556 Speaker 1: and to get to know each other? Are those euphemisms? 57 00:03:44,596 --> 00:03:47,436 Speaker 1: I mean, wasn't there also, just in prior generations to ours? 58 00:03:47,476 --> 00:03:49,556 Speaker 1: Wasn't there just a lot of sex in cars at 59 00:03:49,556 --> 00:03:51,996 Speaker 1: a time when people lived with their parents and they 60 00:03:51,996 --> 00:03:54,636 Speaker 1: didn't have other places to go? I mean, the whole 61 00:03:54,676 --> 00:03:56,436 Speaker 1: notion of parking, wasn't I mean, it's nice to say 62 00:03:56,476 --> 00:03:57,636 Speaker 1: that the people are getting to know each other, but 63 00:03:57,676 --> 00:04:00,236 Speaker 1: that's not all they were doing. Right, So, actually, on 64 00:04:00,396 --> 00:04:03,916 Speaker 1: that there's one of the first hit songs about cars 65 00:04:04,236 --> 00:04:11,076 Speaker 1: was composed nineteen oh five where the lyrics ask Lucille 66 00:04:11,076 --> 00:04:23,156 Speaker 1: to come away with me in my marry oldsmobile. You 67 00:04:23,196 --> 00:04:25,036 Speaker 1: can go as far as you like with me in 68 00:04:25,156 --> 00:04:29,836 Speaker 1: my Mary Oldsmobile. You can far you life with me 69 00:04:30,316 --> 00:04:35,436 Speaker 1: my maring. So definitely there is a lot of sexual 70 00:04:35,476 --> 00:04:39,956 Speaker 1: innuendos in that nineteen o five song, dating couples could 71 00:04:40,396 --> 00:04:43,196 Speaker 1: escape the prying eyes of their parents and their homes 72 00:04:43,196 --> 00:04:46,636 Speaker 1: and the parlors and go off for a Sunday drive 73 00:04:47,156 --> 00:04:49,756 Speaker 1: and do whatever they like as far as they want 74 00:04:49,756 --> 00:04:53,356 Speaker 1: to go, And so that there is a notion of privacy, 75 00:04:53,876 --> 00:04:58,316 Speaker 1: sexual privacy, the privacy of the family going on Sunday 76 00:04:58,396 --> 00:05:03,476 Speaker 1: drives together, bringing the family together. Advertisements actually marketed the 77 00:05:03,596 --> 00:05:06,996 Speaker 1: car as an extension of the home, as the domestic 78 00:05:07,076 --> 00:05:10,796 Speaker 1: hearth where the family got together. But the way that 79 00:05:11,756 --> 00:05:17,036 Speaker 1: government officials, judges, and leaders thought of the car was 80 00:05:17,076 --> 00:05:20,716 Speaker 1: a bit more complex or complicated. If you go back 81 00:05:21,076 --> 00:05:25,476 Speaker 1: to the moment when cars first rolled off assembly lines. 82 00:05:26,196 --> 00:05:30,276 Speaker 1: The assembly line and standardization really allowed a lot of 83 00:05:30,316 --> 00:05:34,316 Speaker 1: cars to be produced and to be able to be 84 00:05:34,436 --> 00:05:38,316 Speaker 1: sold for a very affordable price. So this is the 85 00:05:38,356 --> 00:05:40,436 Speaker 1: story of forward in the Model T and suddenly there 86 00:05:40,436 --> 00:05:43,916 Speaker 1: really are cars everywhere exactly. And so this is what 87 00:05:44,156 --> 00:05:47,356 Speaker 1: was so unprecedented about the mass production of cars is 88 00:05:47,396 --> 00:05:51,196 Speaker 1: that so many individuals were able to own their own 89 00:05:51,356 --> 00:05:54,596 Speaker 1: form of transportation. They could know they no longer had 90 00:05:54,676 --> 00:05:59,636 Speaker 1: to rely on public transportation or walk. And so what 91 00:05:59,956 --> 00:06:02,636 Speaker 1: happened was that all of a sudden, there were hundreds 92 00:06:02,676 --> 00:06:07,236 Speaker 1: and thousands of cars on streets that were really intended 93 00:06:07,276 --> 00:06:12,556 Speaker 1: for a few carriages or the trolley and mostly pedestrians. 94 00:06:12,596 --> 00:06:16,356 Speaker 1: And so it created mass chaos on public streets. And 95 00:06:16,396 --> 00:06:21,316 Speaker 1: when there's public danger to all, then that allows the 96 00:06:21,436 --> 00:06:26,196 Speaker 1: government to exercise our powers to legislate for the public 97 00:06:26,196 --> 00:06:29,796 Speaker 1: safety and welfare. And so the way that lawyers and 98 00:06:29,876 --> 00:06:32,836 Speaker 1: government officials thought about cars was they pose a threat 99 00:06:32,876 --> 00:06:36,116 Speaker 1: to public safety, and so we need to regulate the 100 00:06:36,196 --> 00:06:39,356 Speaker 1: use of motor vehicles, and we need to increase our 101 00:06:39,476 --> 00:06:43,116 Speaker 1: powers to make sure that we cut down the accident rate, 102 00:06:43,556 --> 00:06:48,156 Speaker 1: that everybody drives in a coordinative fashion so that traffic 103 00:06:48,196 --> 00:06:51,996 Speaker 1: can move. And so they were seeing this as something 104 00:06:52,036 --> 00:06:54,756 Speaker 1: that needed to be regulated. And so when you have 105 00:06:55,116 --> 00:07:01,876 Speaker 1: government regulation that starts interfering with individual privacy, so you 106 00:07:01,916 --> 00:07:04,876 Speaker 1: were saying that the advertisers said, Hey, your car is 107 00:07:04,876 --> 00:07:08,716 Speaker 1: an extension of your home, and certainly after dark courting 108 00:07:08,716 --> 00:07:11,796 Speaker 1: couple used their cars as a kind of extension of 109 00:07:11,836 --> 00:07:14,436 Speaker 1: the home. But you also pointed out that because of 110 00:07:14,436 --> 00:07:18,276 Speaker 1: traffic regulation, then that meant that cars came under the 111 00:07:18,316 --> 00:07:20,236 Speaker 1: regulation of the government in a way that the inside 112 00:07:20,236 --> 00:07:22,916 Speaker 1: of the home might not or might not in the 113 00:07:22,996 --> 00:07:26,516 Speaker 1: same way. When are the first times that the courts 114 00:07:26,516 --> 00:07:31,196 Speaker 1: start grappling with the question of whether when a policeman 115 00:07:31,236 --> 00:07:35,356 Speaker 1: pulls you over for a traffic violation, the police officer 116 00:07:35,516 --> 00:07:39,396 Speaker 1: is authorized to use force to either look inside your 117 00:07:39,396 --> 00:07:42,396 Speaker 1: car or to pull you out of your car right away. 118 00:07:43,116 --> 00:07:46,716 Speaker 1: So what happened was that the mass production of cars 119 00:07:46,756 --> 00:07:53,076 Speaker 1: coincided with prohibition. So states were outlawing liquor starting from 120 00:07:53,196 --> 00:07:57,756 Speaker 1: the mid nineteenth century through the late nineteenth century, and 121 00:07:57,916 --> 00:08:02,356 Speaker 1: then we had the National prohibition that was ratified in 122 00:08:02,476 --> 00:08:05,916 Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen, and so really those two things happened at 123 00:08:05,916 --> 00:08:09,636 Speaker 1: the same time, and so more law enforcement age agencies 124 00:08:10,036 --> 00:08:13,876 Speaker 1: wanted to stop and search cars for liquor, and so 125 00:08:14,036 --> 00:08:17,876 Speaker 1: the issue of how much power law enforcement officers had 126 00:08:18,036 --> 00:08:20,996 Speaker 1: to stop and search a car because they suspected that 127 00:08:21,036 --> 00:08:24,316 Speaker 1: there was liquor inside. That was contested from the very beginning. 128 00:08:24,756 --> 00:08:27,676 Speaker 1: And how did the courts first begin to rule on that. 129 00:08:27,796 --> 00:08:30,596 Speaker 1: Was there a trend at the beginning that then changed 130 00:08:30,716 --> 00:08:32,836 Speaker 1: or was it pretty consistent from the start. It was 131 00:08:32,876 --> 00:08:36,916 Speaker 1: pretty consistent from the start. So I distinguished how courts 132 00:08:36,956 --> 00:08:40,116 Speaker 1: treat a probition cases from the way they treated car cases, 133 00:08:41,236 --> 00:08:44,596 Speaker 1: because prohibition was contested from the very beginning. Right, people 134 00:08:44,636 --> 00:08:47,836 Speaker 1: thought that they had a natural right to drink alcohol, 135 00:08:47,916 --> 00:08:53,116 Speaker 1: even Jesus. Even Jesus turned water into wine. Robinson Cristoe 136 00:08:53,356 --> 00:08:57,236 Speaker 1: had wine to drink too. It was natural. And so 137 00:08:57,356 --> 00:09:03,676 Speaker 1: courts were starting to change their Fourth Amendment Jews prudence 138 00:09:03,716 --> 00:09:07,036 Speaker 1: and fourth and then then governs the police's search and 139 00:09:07,076 --> 00:09:10,956 Speaker 1: seizure powers, and they were starting to provide more protections 140 00:09:10,956 --> 00:09:15,876 Speaker 1: to individuals in prohibition cases. And then you have the 141 00:09:15,956 --> 00:09:21,276 Speaker 1: coincidence of mass production of cars and national prohibition, and 142 00:09:21,316 --> 00:09:24,556 Speaker 1: so those cases were coming together, and that's when you 143 00:09:24,596 --> 00:09:28,556 Speaker 1: start having the government argue, this is really not about liquor. 144 00:09:28,996 --> 00:09:33,156 Speaker 1: These cases are really about a fighting crime. Because cars 145 00:09:33,396 --> 00:09:39,156 Speaker 1: changed the entire calculus on crime commission and criminal law enforcement. 146 00:09:39,516 --> 00:09:42,836 Speaker 1: And that's when you have courts uniformly decide that they 147 00:09:42,876 --> 00:09:45,796 Speaker 1: need to increase the police's power to stop and search cars. 148 00:09:46,516 --> 00:09:49,836 Speaker 1: So the outcome, in other words, is from the start 149 00:09:49,876 --> 00:09:53,716 Speaker 1: that the cops have significant discretion to stop the car 150 00:09:53,916 --> 00:09:58,876 Speaker 1: and see what's inside exactly. Now, certainly there were vocal 151 00:09:58,996 --> 00:10:03,556 Speaker 1: descents people who thought a car as private property, and 152 00:10:03,596 --> 00:10:08,716 Speaker 1: the Fourth Amendment protects private property from warrantless searches and seizures, 153 00:10:09,196 --> 00:10:12,556 Speaker 1: and cars fit under that protection. So there were decents, 154 00:10:12,956 --> 00:10:16,116 Speaker 1: but uniformly throughout the country, and I looked at state 155 00:10:16,116 --> 00:10:20,316 Speaker 1: court cases and federal court cases, uniformly, they all decided 156 00:10:20,836 --> 00:10:23,876 Speaker 1: that the police needed the power to stop in search 157 00:10:23,876 --> 00:10:26,916 Speaker 1: a car without warrants. And did the police have to 158 00:10:26,956 --> 00:10:29,876 Speaker 1: show that they had any reasonable suspicion to do that 159 00:10:30,116 --> 00:10:33,076 Speaker 1: or was it enough for them to say, we don't 160 00:10:33,116 --> 00:10:35,956 Speaker 1: like the look of you. So that's a really interesting 161 00:10:35,996 --> 00:10:39,436 Speaker 1: question because courts have held that cops need reasonable or 162 00:10:39,476 --> 00:10:42,676 Speaker 1: probable cause to believe that there was something illegal inside 163 00:10:42,676 --> 00:10:49,036 Speaker 1: the car. Now, from the very beginning, commentators criticized that 164 00:10:49,476 --> 00:10:53,076 Speaker 1: rule because when you say that a cop needs reasonable 165 00:10:53,156 --> 00:10:57,556 Speaker 1: or probable cause, that's not a standard of certainty, right, 166 00:10:58,436 --> 00:11:01,676 Speaker 1: And so if you allow for reasonable probable cause. You're 167 00:11:01,716 --> 00:11:04,396 Speaker 1: also allowing for instances where the cop could be wrong 168 00:11:05,196 --> 00:11:07,436 Speaker 1: because they don't have to be certain about it. And 169 00:11:07,516 --> 00:11:10,276 Speaker 1: if a cop can be wrong, if a standard allows 170 00:11:10,276 --> 00:11:13,356 Speaker 1: a cop to be wrong, then it sort of allows 171 00:11:13,356 --> 00:11:16,276 Speaker 1: a cop to make things up a little bit. And 172 00:11:16,356 --> 00:11:19,396 Speaker 1: that's exactly what happened in fourth Medagers Price. There's a 173 00:11:19,396 --> 00:11:23,196 Speaker 1: reasonable or probable cause standard that allows a lot of 174 00:11:23,276 --> 00:11:27,236 Speaker 1: leeway to the police to bolster their case that they 175 00:11:27,276 --> 00:11:30,196 Speaker 1: had reasonable or probable cause. So fill that in a 176 00:11:30,196 --> 00:11:32,396 Speaker 1: little bit, because now we're getting very close to the 177 00:11:32,476 --> 00:11:37,036 Speaker 1: meat of you know, the the archetypal scene of the 178 00:11:37,116 --> 00:11:40,956 Speaker 1: cops pull somebody over, probably a young African American mail 179 00:11:41,076 --> 00:11:45,396 Speaker 1: in our archetype, and the question arises of whether the 180 00:11:45,436 --> 00:11:49,676 Speaker 1: cop has probable cause to search the car. Fill it 181 00:11:49,716 --> 00:11:52,996 Speaker 1: in a little bit. What counted historically and what counts 182 00:11:52,996 --> 00:11:56,036 Speaker 1: in the law today as probable cause, and how has 183 00:11:56,076 --> 00:11:59,236 Speaker 1: that changed. Well, So the first thing I should say 184 00:11:59,276 --> 00:12:02,356 Speaker 1: about what probable cause is is that we don't really know. 185 00:12:02,596 --> 00:12:05,436 Speaker 1: The courts have refused to put a number on what 186 00:12:05,476 --> 00:12:10,036 Speaker 1: probable causes. So if you think about knowledge or the 187 00:12:10,116 --> 00:12:12,716 Speaker 1: standards of proof that the state has to have before 188 00:12:12,756 --> 00:12:16,796 Speaker 1: they take action. We can start from zero. They have 189 00:12:16,956 --> 00:12:22,956 Speaker 1: nothing on us to proof beyond a reasonable doubt, right, 190 00:12:22,956 --> 00:12:26,676 Speaker 1: and the proof beyond reasonable doubt is the necessary standard 191 00:12:26,676 --> 00:12:30,476 Speaker 1: to convict someone of a crime. Now, probable causes somewhere 192 00:12:30,516 --> 00:12:34,876 Speaker 1: below that, and courts have refused to put a number 193 00:12:34,956 --> 00:12:38,996 Speaker 1: on what that amount of certainty is. The best way 194 00:12:38,996 --> 00:12:41,836 Speaker 1: that they've described it is it's a matter of probabilities 195 00:12:42,076 --> 00:12:45,076 Speaker 1: more likely than not. But Sarah, isn't that Let me 196 00:12:45,076 --> 00:12:46,636 Speaker 1: just ask you about that. I mean, when I hear 197 00:12:47,236 --> 00:12:50,756 Speaker 1: probable cause, I hear more probable than not, and I 198 00:12:50,836 --> 00:12:53,916 Speaker 1: hear fifty percent plus a smidge in am I hearing 199 00:12:53,956 --> 00:12:56,596 Speaker 1: that the wrong way? That's one way to look at it, 200 00:12:56,596 --> 00:13:01,876 Speaker 1: except that the courts have refused to say that it's 201 00:13:02,196 --> 00:13:05,036 Speaker 1: a smidge and more than fifty percent. And here's the 202 00:13:05,076 --> 00:13:08,636 Speaker 1: reason why all of this matters is because Fourth amend 203 00:13:08,716 --> 00:13:12,036 Speaker 1: and challenge lenges. A challenge to a police search of 204 00:13:12,076 --> 00:13:15,916 Speaker 1: a car, for instance, only happens when the person is 205 00:13:15,956 --> 00:13:19,716 Speaker 1: guilty when the police found something in the car. And 206 00:13:19,796 --> 00:13:23,836 Speaker 1: so when a Fourth Amendment challenge is made, a judge 207 00:13:23,876 --> 00:13:26,476 Speaker 1: is looking at a guilty person who was caught red handed. 208 00:13:26,796 --> 00:13:30,556 Speaker 1: And of course, when you're faced with that scenario, it's 209 00:13:30,596 --> 00:13:34,676 Speaker 1: just much easier to say the police had probable cause 210 00:13:35,276 --> 00:13:38,676 Speaker 1: because obviously they found someone with alcohol in their cars 211 00:13:38,756 --> 00:13:42,516 Speaker 1: or now today drugs in their cars, and so the 212 00:13:42,836 --> 00:13:47,676 Speaker 1: whole calculus is biased towards a finding probable cause because 213 00:13:47,716 --> 00:13:50,436 Speaker 1: judges aren't looking at the cases where an innocent person 214 00:13:51,076 --> 00:13:54,116 Speaker 1: has been searched or their car has been searched. Well, 215 00:13:54,116 --> 00:13:56,316 Speaker 1: we sometimes are right, I mean we sometimes are. I 216 00:13:56,356 --> 00:13:58,516 Speaker 1: mean the Sandra Bland case is an example of how 217 00:13:58,996 --> 00:14:01,156 Speaker 1: in a certain outlying cases we do look at an 218 00:14:01,196 --> 00:14:03,836 Speaker 1: instance where somebody has been stopped, and then when something 219 00:14:03,916 --> 00:14:06,556 Speaker 1: terrible happens, we say, oh, my goodness, you know, you 220 00:14:06,596 --> 00:14:08,556 Speaker 1: should never have stopped this person in the first place. 221 00:14:08,836 --> 00:14:11,516 Speaker 1: Or those moments of our history where we focus on 222 00:14:12,556 --> 00:14:17,596 Speaker 1: racial profiling or other illegitimate means of stops, then we 223 00:14:17,676 --> 00:14:19,756 Speaker 1: take a deep breath and we say, well, wait a second, 224 00:14:20,156 --> 00:14:22,396 Speaker 1: you know, should these stops have been allowed in the 225 00:14:22,476 --> 00:14:24,156 Speaker 1: first instance. I mean, I completely agree with you that 226 00:14:24,396 --> 00:14:27,716 Speaker 1: in an ordinary judicial situation, if the cops searches your 227 00:14:27,716 --> 00:14:29,436 Speaker 1: car there's nothing in your car, they'll let you go 228 00:14:29,796 --> 00:14:31,676 Speaker 1: so it doesn't come to court. So I get your point. 229 00:14:31,676 --> 00:14:33,596 Speaker 1: I think it's a very powerful and important point. But 230 00:14:33,636 --> 00:14:36,396 Speaker 1: there are moments, aren't there where we do engage in 231 00:14:36,436 --> 00:14:39,676 Speaker 1: the question of what should be sufficient cause for a 232 00:14:39,716 --> 00:14:43,116 Speaker 1: stop in a search. No, I don't think we do. 233 00:14:43,836 --> 00:14:46,556 Speaker 1: And fascinating and let me try to explain why I 234 00:14:46,596 --> 00:14:51,796 Speaker 1: feel that way. So Sandra Bland to remind the listeners 235 00:14:51,916 --> 00:14:57,036 Speaker 1: of that tragic incident. She was arrested and she died 236 00:14:57,116 --> 00:15:00,916 Speaker 1: in her jail cell three days later, and she was 237 00:15:01,036 --> 00:15:05,316 Speaker 1: pulled over for a minor traffic violation. Nobody challenged that. 238 00:15:06,636 --> 00:15:09,356 Speaker 1: And this is something that I cover my book from 239 00:15:09,356 --> 00:15:14,156 Speaker 1: the very beginning of mass production of cars, cities, towns, 240 00:15:14,276 --> 00:15:18,796 Speaker 1: past volumes and volumes of traffic laws governing everything from 241 00:15:18,876 --> 00:15:23,116 Speaker 1: necessary traffic equipment to when a car can make a 242 00:15:23,276 --> 00:15:26,876 Speaker 1: right turn, and a violation of any one of those 243 00:15:26,876 --> 00:15:30,276 Speaker 1: traffic laws allows a place to stop that car. But 244 00:15:30,316 --> 00:15:32,396 Speaker 1: I feel like there is a real debate out there 245 00:15:32,396 --> 00:15:35,316 Speaker 1: in the world today about whether it's okay for police 246 00:15:35,316 --> 00:15:40,436 Speaker 1: departments to use theoretically neutral rules like you know, you 247 00:15:40,556 --> 00:15:43,116 Speaker 1: made a turn without signaling, which is I think the 248 00:15:43,156 --> 00:15:45,996 Speaker 1: case the claim in the Sandra Bland case, and if 249 00:15:46,076 --> 00:15:48,236 Speaker 1: cops are using those but they're applying them in a 250 00:15:48,276 --> 00:15:51,316 Speaker 1: discriminatory fashion. They're applying them so that the people who 251 00:15:51,356 --> 00:15:56,316 Speaker 1: get pulled over are disproportionately African Americans, let's say, or Latino. Then, 252 00:15:56,636 --> 00:15:58,756 Speaker 1: you know, I do have the feeling that people do 253 00:15:58,876 --> 00:16:01,156 Speaker 1: think in the world, that many people think that there's 254 00:16:01,196 --> 00:16:05,156 Speaker 1: something wrong with that, that maybe having a broken tail 255 00:16:05,196 --> 00:16:08,156 Speaker 1: light shouldn't be grounds to be potentially arrested. I think 256 00:16:08,196 --> 00:16:11,876 Speaker 1: many people, and I can include myself, and that agree 257 00:16:11,916 --> 00:16:14,076 Speaker 1: with you. But that's not where the law is. Right. 258 00:16:14,236 --> 00:16:16,796 Speaker 1: The law still assumes that if you've committed even the 259 00:16:16,836 --> 00:16:22,116 Speaker 1: most minor traffic violation, it's legally justifiable to stop you 260 00:16:22,196 --> 00:16:25,516 Speaker 1: and potentially but what would it be potentially permissible to 261 00:16:25,556 --> 00:16:28,556 Speaker 1: search your car under those circumstances. So let me back up. 262 00:16:28,876 --> 00:16:31,436 Speaker 1: The court has said in nineteen ninety six in the 263 00:16:31,476 --> 00:16:34,876 Speaker 1: case ren versus United States, that if a cop pulls 264 00:16:34,956 --> 00:16:39,676 Speaker 1: over somebody based on pretext so the cop thinks that 265 00:16:39,716 --> 00:16:43,196 Speaker 1: the driver has drugs in the car but doesn't have 266 00:16:43,276 --> 00:16:46,636 Speaker 1: probable cause, then the cop can't stop that car right 267 00:16:46,636 --> 00:16:50,596 Speaker 1: because probable cause is the necessary requirement. But the cop 268 00:16:50,756 --> 00:16:54,036 Speaker 1: can use a minor traffic violation to pull that car over. 269 00:16:54,156 --> 00:16:57,596 Speaker 1: That kind of pretextual car stop is aoka according the 270 00:16:57,596 --> 00:17:01,396 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. So the cop pulls over a car for 271 00:17:01,436 --> 00:17:04,636 Speaker 1: a minor traffic violation, then the next question is can 272 00:17:04,676 --> 00:17:07,316 Speaker 1: the cop start searching the car for the drugs that 273 00:17:07,396 --> 00:17:10,116 Speaker 1: he or she suspects? And this is where we get 274 00:17:10,156 --> 00:17:13,916 Speaker 1: to the fuzziness of the probable cost standard. It is 275 00:17:14,076 --> 00:17:19,916 Speaker 1: really easy to fight facts that support probable cause. I 276 00:17:20,116 --> 00:17:25,076 Speaker 1: looked at one of the best selling police textbooks on 277 00:17:25,116 --> 00:17:29,316 Speaker 1: what they call criminal Patrol, how to do drug busts 278 00:17:29,596 --> 00:17:34,596 Speaker 1: using Traffic law enforcement, and they say, probable cause is 279 00:17:34,596 --> 00:17:38,156 Speaker 1: actually a very capacious standard. A lot of things you 280 00:17:38,196 --> 00:17:43,556 Speaker 1: can think of to meet that standard, like suspicious odors. Right, 281 00:17:43,596 --> 00:17:46,996 Speaker 1: I smelled marijuana. How are you going to prove that 282 00:17:47,076 --> 00:17:50,236 Speaker 1: in court? It's the officer's testimony, right, And if the 283 00:17:50,316 --> 00:17:55,516 Speaker 1: officer finds a marijuana butt, then yeah, it sounds right 284 00:17:55,596 --> 00:17:59,916 Speaker 1: that the officer smelled it. And so it's really easy 285 00:18:00,116 --> 00:18:04,836 Speaker 1: to meet the standards for a warrantless car search because 286 00:18:05,036 --> 00:18:08,836 Speaker 1: of the volumes of traffic laws that everybody violates. At 287 00:18:08,836 --> 00:18:12,596 Speaker 1: some point, I get what you're saying, but you're also describing, 288 00:18:12,716 --> 00:18:16,596 Speaker 1: aren't you a potential distortion? The possibility which always exists 289 00:18:16,596 --> 00:18:20,316 Speaker 1: of police distorting the truth or were lying in some 290 00:18:20,676 --> 00:18:23,556 Speaker 1: other way, right, I mean, yeah, as as you know, 291 00:18:23,556 --> 00:18:24,956 Speaker 1: as the art type. I keep on thinking of the 292 00:18:25,436 --> 00:18:29,196 Speaker 1: jay Z song Yeah, and which he's he's replicating the 293 00:18:29,236 --> 00:18:32,436 Speaker 1: structure of a pullover, and he says, you know, do 294 00:18:32,436 --> 00:18:35,316 Speaker 1: you think that because my hat's real low, that you 295 00:18:35,356 --> 00:18:37,196 Speaker 1: know you can search me? You can't? I know my 296 00:18:37,236 --> 00:18:40,076 Speaker 1: constitutional rights. I mean, I'm paraphrasing now without anything like 297 00:18:40,196 --> 00:18:43,156 Speaker 1: jay Z's flow, but the basic idea is that the 298 00:18:43,236 --> 00:18:46,036 Speaker 1: cops don't have the constitutional right to search. And jay 299 00:18:46,116 --> 00:18:48,076 Speaker 1: Z wants you, the listener of the song, to know that, 300 00:18:48,316 --> 00:18:50,796 Speaker 1: you know, I teach that song when I teach criminal procedure. 301 00:18:51,316 --> 00:18:53,636 Speaker 1: And we go over verse two. Verse two is a 302 00:18:53,716 --> 00:18:57,396 Speaker 1: car stop that actually happened in real life to jay Z. 303 00:18:57,516 --> 00:19:03,156 Speaker 1: So he sings a version of that in the song 304 00:19:03,516 --> 00:19:06,636 Speaker 1: you don't want because I'm young and I'm black in 305 00:19:06,716 --> 00:19:09,316 Speaker 1: my head's real low, do one look like a modest sir? 306 00:19:10,596 --> 00:19:13,076 Speaker 1: And we and I go over what he gets wrong 307 00:19:13,116 --> 00:19:15,596 Speaker 1: about the Fourth Amendment? Can you share that with us? 308 00:19:15,956 --> 00:19:19,316 Speaker 1: So he's right that there is racial profiling that goes on, 309 00:19:19,716 --> 00:19:23,836 Speaker 1: especially at the time when he experienced it for himself. 310 00:19:24,196 --> 00:19:27,956 Speaker 1: There was a drug courier profile with traits that were 311 00:19:28,036 --> 00:19:34,796 Speaker 1: associated with black men that highway patrollers were instructed to 312 00:19:34,836 --> 00:19:38,516 Speaker 1: look for when they pull over in their drug interdiction programs. 313 00:19:38,876 --> 00:19:42,156 Speaker 1: And so he's right as a matter of social reality 314 00:19:42,196 --> 00:19:45,116 Speaker 1: that they were profiled. As a matter of law, that's 315 00:19:45,196 --> 00:19:48,476 Speaker 1: okay under the rent case that I just mentioned. The 316 00:19:48,556 --> 00:19:51,836 Speaker 1: other thing that he gets really wrong, he seems that 317 00:19:51,876 --> 00:19:53,956 Speaker 1: the cop needs to go get a warrant to search 318 00:19:53,956 --> 00:20:04,876 Speaker 1: his car, and that is absolutely not true. The cops 319 00:20:04,916 --> 00:20:08,716 Speaker 1: do not need a warrant. They don't if they need, 320 00:20:08,916 --> 00:20:11,156 Speaker 1: if they have probable cause, If they have a probable cause, 321 00:20:11,196 --> 00:20:13,076 Speaker 1: they don't need to actually go and get a warrant 322 00:20:13,116 --> 00:20:17,436 Speaker 1: for that probable cause exactly. But according to the textbook, 323 00:20:17,476 --> 00:20:21,276 Speaker 1: the Police Textbook on Criminal Patrol, getting probable cause for 324 00:20:21,276 --> 00:20:25,156 Speaker 1: a warrantless car search is super easy, and in fact, 325 00:20:25,516 --> 00:20:29,876 Speaker 1: the textbook says the Fourth Amendment is your tool in 326 00:20:29,916 --> 00:20:35,236 Speaker 1: criminal patrol. The cop or the highway patroller who it 327 00:20:35,316 --> 00:20:37,996 Speaker 1: does a good job, doesn't see the Fourth Amendment as 328 00:20:37,996 --> 00:20:41,396 Speaker 1: an impediment. They see the Fourth Amendment as opportunities. And 329 00:20:41,476 --> 00:20:43,436 Speaker 1: that's actually one of the main arguments of your book 330 00:20:43,436 --> 00:20:46,956 Speaker 1: as I read it, that especially lawyers like to tell, 331 00:20:47,076 --> 00:20:50,356 Speaker 1: maybe especially law professors, we like to tell heroic stories 332 00:20:50,396 --> 00:20:53,596 Speaker 1: about how the law protects people. But in fact, the 333 00:20:53,676 --> 00:20:56,916 Speaker 1: law that regulates search is as much a law that 334 00:20:57,076 --> 00:20:59,716 Speaker 1: enables the cops to search as it is a law 335 00:20:59,796 --> 00:21:04,036 Speaker 1: that limits those searches. I think that's a hugely important point. 336 00:21:04,076 --> 00:21:06,196 Speaker 1: But it has a kind of complex interaction with the car, 337 00:21:06,316 --> 00:21:09,316 Speaker 1: doesn't it. I mean, the car has never really in 338 00:21:09,836 --> 00:21:13,036 Speaker 1: a true sanctuary. It's always an in between space that 339 00:21:13,196 --> 00:21:17,796 Speaker 1: subject to a fair amount of police surveillance and governmental regulation. 340 00:21:17,876 --> 00:21:21,596 Speaker 1: Isn't that a fair description exactly? And that's one of 341 00:21:21,596 --> 00:21:24,996 Speaker 1: the tensions that animates my book is that in American 342 00:21:25,036 --> 00:21:28,836 Speaker 1: culture we celebrate the car as a freedom machine, but 343 00:21:28,956 --> 00:21:31,796 Speaker 1: when we look at the legal history the law's treatment 344 00:21:31,796 --> 00:21:35,356 Speaker 1: of cars, it's heavily regulated and heavily pleased. And you 345 00:21:35,436 --> 00:21:39,436 Speaker 1: bring in You mentioned the conventional story that we've told 346 00:21:39,556 --> 00:21:42,756 Speaker 1: about constitutional law, about the Fourth Amendment, and that was 347 00:21:42,796 --> 00:21:44,436 Speaker 1: one of the questions that I had when I first 348 00:21:44,476 --> 00:21:48,956 Speaker 1: started this project, is that the conventional story that I've 349 00:21:48,996 --> 00:21:53,156 Speaker 1: always learned as a law school student is that the 350 00:21:53,236 --> 00:21:57,476 Speaker 1: court has been the protector of our individual liberties, especially 351 00:21:57,516 --> 00:22:01,636 Speaker 1: the Warren Court, the Warren Court was considered one of 352 00:22:01,636 --> 00:22:05,476 Speaker 1: the most liberal courts in our history. That's the Supreme 353 00:22:05,516 --> 00:22:07,996 Speaker 1: Court under the under the Chief justiceship of Rural Warren 354 00:22:08,076 --> 00:22:12,036 Speaker 1: in the nine fifties, sixties, and into the very early seventies. Yeah, 355 00:22:12,036 --> 00:22:15,156 Speaker 1: exactly right. And the war On Court started what we 356 00:22:15,236 --> 00:22:19,276 Speaker 1: now refer to as a due process revolution revolution right, 357 00:22:19,756 --> 00:22:23,836 Speaker 1: a revolution to give individuals more rights under the Constitution. 358 00:22:24,156 --> 00:22:27,796 Speaker 1: And this was a progressive triumphal story that I've always learned, 359 00:22:28,076 --> 00:22:31,396 Speaker 1: starting in law school through grad school. But I was 360 00:22:31,436 --> 00:22:34,596 Speaker 1: always confused because I was starting to also read about 361 00:22:34,756 --> 00:22:38,516 Speaker 1: problems with the criminal justice system, a mass incarceration that 362 00:22:38,636 --> 00:22:43,396 Speaker 1: disproportionately affects minorities and the poor. And I was so 363 00:22:43,476 --> 00:22:46,636 Speaker 1: confused because the Warren Courts due process revolution was supposed 364 00:22:46,676 --> 00:22:51,076 Speaker 1: to help those groups. But a generation after the due 365 00:22:51,116 --> 00:22:54,156 Speaker 1: process Revolution, those groups are the ones who are disproportionately 366 00:22:54,156 --> 00:22:57,276 Speaker 1: affected in the criminal justice system. And so what happened? 367 00:22:57,956 --> 00:22:59,636 Speaker 1: And that was one of the questions that I had 368 00:22:59,676 --> 00:23:04,356 Speaker 1: when I started this project. And I've realized our conventional 369 00:23:04,476 --> 00:23:08,716 Speaker 1: story history that I've been told we only looked at 370 00:23:09,196 --> 00:23:13,236 Speaker 1: certain landmark cases. We only looked at the cases that 371 00:23:13,716 --> 00:23:17,396 Speaker 1: dealt with invasions to the home. We never looked at 372 00:23:17,436 --> 00:23:20,236 Speaker 1: the cases that involved the police's power to stop and 373 00:23:20,276 --> 00:23:24,076 Speaker 1: search cars. And so if we look at those cases, 374 00:23:24,156 --> 00:23:27,756 Speaker 1: we see courts from state courts to district trial courts 375 00:23:27,796 --> 00:23:30,556 Speaker 1: all the way up to the US Supreme Court, they've 376 00:23:30,636 --> 00:23:36,076 Speaker 1: always reliably granted the police more power, more discretionary power. 377 00:23:36,356 --> 00:23:38,876 Speaker 1: So I want to ask you for a final question, Sarah, 378 00:23:38,996 --> 00:23:44,236 Speaker 1: just to put on your futuristic goggles and picture the 379 00:23:44,356 --> 00:23:47,796 Speaker 1: driverless cars or the self driving cars that you may 380 00:23:47,836 --> 00:23:49,676 Speaker 1: not be right around the corner, but are they're on 381 00:23:49,716 --> 00:23:53,356 Speaker 1: the way, And imagine writing you after your book becomes 382 00:23:53,356 --> 00:23:56,676 Speaker 1: a bestseller and wins all the prizes, they ask you 383 00:23:56,756 --> 00:23:59,876 Speaker 1: to publish an updated edition in fifteen or twenty years 384 00:24:00,116 --> 00:24:02,556 Speaker 1: with a new chapter on driverless cars in the law. 385 00:24:03,116 --> 00:24:05,676 Speaker 1: What do you imagine the big issues are going to 386 00:24:05,756 --> 00:24:09,596 Speaker 1: become for regulation in a world where I'm not actually 387 00:24:09,636 --> 00:24:14,156 Speaker 1: controlling the car anymore. Well, it's going to really change 388 00:24:14,156 --> 00:24:19,796 Speaker 1: Fourth Amendment practice, not necessarily the law, but practice. Because 389 00:24:20,636 --> 00:24:26,236 Speaker 1: much of criminal law investigation, the investigation of drug laws 390 00:24:26,476 --> 00:24:31,036 Speaker 1: specifically happens with a minor traffic violation. And if autonomous 391 00:24:31,156 --> 00:24:34,516 Speaker 1: driving cars, our program never to violate the traffic laws. 392 00:24:34,596 --> 00:24:37,036 Speaker 1: I sure hope they will be programmed for Yeah, right, 393 00:24:37,836 --> 00:24:40,836 Speaker 1: me too. Then that means that the police will need 394 00:24:40,956 --> 00:24:43,596 Speaker 1: probable cause of some sort of violation other than the 395 00:24:43,676 --> 00:24:46,956 Speaker 1: violation of a traffic law. They will need probable cause 396 00:24:47,116 --> 00:24:51,156 Speaker 1: that the car contains contraband or other illegal substances. If 397 00:24:51,196 --> 00:24:52,676 Speaker 1: I want to if I want to buy drugs in 398 00:24:52,676 --> 00:24:55,556 Speaker 1: Florida and drive them up the five Card or to 399 00:24:55,596 --> 00:24:57,996 Speaker 1: the northeast, what I should do right away is buy 400 00:24:58,076 --> 00:25:02,276 Speaker 1: myself at Tesla exactly. That never violates the traffic violations 401 00:25:02,316 --> 00:25:04,996 Speaker 1: because the police need probable cause that you have drugs 402 00:25:04,996 --> 00:25:08,276 Speaker 1: in it, And how will they know unless they saw 403 00:25:08,356 --> 00:25:11,156 Speaker 1: you actually putting drugs into the car. That's really the 404 00:25:11,156 --> 00:25:13,276 Speaker 1: only situation that I can think of that amounts to 405 00:25:13,356 --> 00:25:17,676 Speaker 1: probable cause. And so the whole criminal patrol that's based 406 00:25:17,716 --> 00:25:21,916 Speaker 1: on a minor traffic vlation that will cease. But the 407 00:25:22,076 --> 00:25:25,596 Speaker 1: privacy intrusions can come in in really unexpected places, right, 408 00:25:25,636 --> 00:25:28,356 Speaker 1: and so I imagine these autonomous cars will be outfitted 409 00:25:28,356 --> 00:25:34,396 Speaker 1: with GPS devices and all sorts of the Internet of Things. Right, 410 00:25:34,796 --> 00:25:36,116 Speaker 1: they'll have to talk to all the other cars. I mean, 411 00:25:36,156 --> 00:25:37,956 Speaker 1: it won't work unless these cars talk to each other, 412 00:25:38,036 --> 00:25:41,516 Speaker 1: right exactly, and all of that talking to other cars, 413 00:25:41,876 --> 00:25:46,796 Speaker 1: interacting with a greater network that's connected through the Internet 414 00:25:46,836 --> 00:25:49,836 Speaker 1: and cloud and all of that. And you know cars 415 00:25:49,836 --> 00:25:53,276 Speaker 1: basically have new cars today basically have computers installed in them, 416 00:25:53,396 --> 00:25:57,356 Speaker 1: right that are connected to the Internet. All of that 417 00:25:57,556 --> 00:26:02,356 Speaker 1: is connecting to the to the greater public right. And 418 00:26:02,436 --> 00:26:06,596 Speaker 1: so the way that courts are dealing with questions about 419 00:26:06,636 --> 00:26:08,636 Speaker 1: what is public and private that I talk about in 420 00:26:08,676 --> 00:26:10,876 Speaker 1: the history of cars, they are struggling with that still 421 00:26:10,916 --> 00:26:15,716 Speaker 1: today when it comes to smartphones, the cloud, and the 422 00:26:15,836 --> 00:26:19,036 Speaker 1: Internet and all of that will be bundled with autonomous 423 00:26:19,116 --> 00:26:22,396 Speaker 1: driving cars too, so it's going to be an issue 424 00:26:22,476 --> 00:26:27,356 Speaker 1: that will have a second version. So there could be 425 00:26:27,396 --> 00:26:29,676 Speaker 1: a volume too. There you go. I'm looking forward to 426 00:26:29,756 --> 00:26:32,196 Speaker 1: reading it. Sarah. Thank you so much for this really 427 00:26:32,236 --> 00:26:35,676 Speaker 1: fascinating conversation, for your really thought provoking and terrific book. 428 00:26:36,036 --> 00:26:45,476 Speaker 1: Thank you. Talking to Sarah really brings into focus how 429 00:26:45,556 --> 00:26:49,436 Speaker 1: absolutely central the automobile has been, not just to every 430 00:26:49,476 --> 00:26:51,796 Speaker 1: aspect of our lives, but to the question of our 431 00:26:51,916 --> 00:26:55,396 Speaker 1: freedoms in the United States, to the question of privacy, 432 00:26:55,756 --> 00:26:58,756 Speaker 1: to race, to almost all of the most fundamental issues 433 00:26:58,796 --> 00:27:00,916 Speaker 1: that we struggle with when it comes to the definition 434 00:27:01,236 --> 00:27:05,796 Speaker 1: of our rights. Going forward, it seems the technology of 435 00:27:05,836 --> 00:27:08,796 Speaker 1: cars will both be always the same and ever changing. 436 00:27:09,356 --> 00:27:11,716 Speaker 1: It's always the same in the sense that just has 437 00:27:11,716 --> 00:27:14,596 Speaker 1: been the case for more than a century. Our roads, 438 00:27:14,676 --> 00:27:17,676 Speaker 1: our spaces are defined by cars. We spend time in cars, 439 00:27:17,756 --> 00:27:21,236 Speaker 1: and the police will continue to observe and regulate our 440 00:27:21,236 --> 00:27:24,876 Speaker 1: actions while we're in cars. But slowly and gradually, as 441 00:27:24,916 --> 00:27:28,716 Speaker 1: our cars become self driving, the technology is going to 442 00:27:28,796 --> 00:27:32,716 Speaker 1: change the way that our government and our police interact 443 00:27:32,796 --> 00:27:37,436 Speaker 1: with us in cars. Our privacy may gradually return, our 444 00:27:37,516 --> 00:27:41,516 Speaker 1: violation of traffic laws will almost certainly decline, and the 445 00:27:41,556 --> 00:27:43,956 Speaker 1: government will have to come up with new ways of 446 00:27:43,956 --> 00:27:46,796 Speaker 1: thinking about how it regulates us, and we will have 447 00:27:46,876 --> 00:27:53,756 Speaker 1: to come up with new ways of exploring our freedom. 448 00:27:53,996 --> 00:27:56,916 Speaker 1: Deep Background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our 449 00:27:56,956 --> 00:28:00,036 Speaker 1: producer is Lydia Gene Coott, with engineering by Jason Gambrel 450 00:28:00,236 --> 00:28:03,956 Speaker 1: and Jason Roskowski. Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. Our theme 451 00:28:04,036 --> 00:28:06,836 Speaker 1: music is composed by Luis GERA special thanks to the 452 00:28:06,836 --> 00:28:10,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin Brass Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg and Mia Lobel. I'm 453 00:28:11,036 --> 00:28:13,436 Speaker 1: Noah Feldman. You can follow me on Twitter at Noah 454 00:28:13,556 --> 00:28:19,956 Speaker 1: R Feldman. This is Deep Background. A last note Today, 455 00:28:20,316 --> 00:28:23,276 Speaker 1: Deep Background is taking a holiday break. We'll be back 456 00:28:23,316 --> 00:28:24,956 Speaker 1: with a new season in the new year.