Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to Bob Leftsett's podcast. My guest
Speaker 1: today is Carl Stubner, CEO of the Shelter Music Group. Carl,
Speaker 1: what is the Shelter Music Group?
Speaker 2: Now, that's a good question, Bob. We're still trying to
Speaker 2: figure that out. Now. We are a management company that
Speaker 2: started right like two months before COVID's hit, and so
Speaker 2: we've built this company over the last whatever that is,
Speaker 2: three four years. In the first two years was hard
Speaker 2: to keep it going, but I had this attitude that
Speaker 2: in bad times grow faster, you know, and I just
Speaker 2: kept on bringing him managers and signing more bands. And
Speaker 2: we went from fourteen bands to seventy bands and a
Speaker 2: staff of five to a staff of thirty. So that
Speaker 2: is I've been over the last four years.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's just go talk me through the transition.
Speaker 1: What you were doing exactly before Shelter, What the vision
Speaker 1: for Shelter was, Why was going to be different?
Speaker 2: Well, as I think, you know, I was at Sanctuary
Speaker 2: at the end of the run, right and then Universal
Speaker 2: bought it and I ran Sanctuary Management for Universal for
Speaker 2: a couple of years until I just had to get out.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It was not the right environment for me, and I
Speaker 2: don't think they shared my same vision of what a
Speaker 2: management company is and how to survive a management company.
Speaker 2: And so I left and then I kind of did
Speaker 2: some other management company stuff with some other people, but
Speaker 2: I was getting bored and I happened to be out
Speaker 2: on tour with Fleetwood Mac and Hartwick, who was the
Speaker 2: chairman of BMG at the time, came out on the
Speaker 2: tour to say hi to me and check it out,
Speaker 2: and he's witnessed what we did as managers really for
Speaker 2: the first time, real managers, you know. I think we
Speaker 2: playing Boston and he asked, well, how much did the
Speaker 2: band pocket, you know? And I told him the number
Speaker 2: and he said, well, how much did you get? I said,
Speaker 2: I told him the number, and he said, I want
Speaker 2: to be in your business, no risk, just upside, okay.
Speaker 2: So I said, all right, well, I don't know if
Speaker 2: I want to sell my company. I'm not sure even
Speaker 2: if I want to grow it. At that point, you know,
Speaker 2: I was happy managing Fleetwood Mac's Easy Top and other bands,
Speaker 2: and you know, I was getting older, and I was like, well,
Speaker 2: maybe just fade out with those bands and that's enough.
Speaker 2: And so he kept on calling me no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: you don't need to sell the company. I'm going to
Speaker 2: invest in your company, okay, and we'll just investor, you know,
Speaker 2: just providing capital to build a new company and do
Speaker 2: somewhat of a roll up. Eventually I said yes, So
Speaker 2: we did that twenty nineteen in November October, and you know,
Speaker 2: we shook hands. He invested in it, and three months
Speaker 2: later COVID hit. Okay, so business shut down. But my
Speaker 2: whole thing was, you know, in the depression, the Kennedys
Speaker 2: really succeeded. You know, it was like those are the times.
Speaker 2: So there were a lot of managers out there that
Speaker 2: needed support because they were making no money and they
Speaker 2: had great bands, but there was no one working. So
Speaker 2: I went to them and said, hey, why aren't you
Speaker 2: come in and I'll guarantee you money. And so I
Speaker 2: built this and then you know, we thought COVID would
Speaker 2: last six months, a year or whatever, and it just
Speaker 2: kept on going. So I went to Hartwick and I said,
Speaker 2: I am not going to furlough anybody, I'm not dropping anything,
Speaker 2: and I'm going to grow even more. So I need
Speaker 2: more money. And he said, hell yeah, great idea let's
Speaker 2: do it. And so he did that and we kept
Speaker 2: going and going, and then we broke through COVID and
Speaker 2: we had debt because we took money, and we're finally
Speaker 2: at that point where you know, we're a cash positive
Speaker 2: company and uh successful. And it took two years to
Speaker 2: dig out of COVID, but now it's working and we
Speaker 2: have great bands and great managers, and you know, the
Speaker 2: whole thing in the beginning was, you know, the only
Speaker 2: reason I really am willing to the only way I'm
Speaker 2: willing to do this heartwik, is that I want to
Speaker 2: make this company like no Oether, a big management company,
Speaker 2: and we don't need to name them. They are what
Speaker 2: they are and they're great, you know. But I didn't
Speaker 2: want that. I wanted to go back to my roots
Speaker 2: as a music fan when I was young and build
Speaker 2: a company. And this is a I use this expression
Speaker 2: all the time and with people, but I really had
Speaker 2: this fantasy of doing making a company where music was
Speaker 2: why we were there, not the paycheck, okay, and make
Speaker 2: it like this thing in the early early seventies or
Speaker 2: late nineties of Rolling Stone magazine where they're sitting in
Speaker 2: one room and they all care about one thing, and
Speaker 2: they share ideas. You know, maybe that's not what Rolling
Speaker 2: Stone was, but that was my vision of Rolling Stone,
Speaker 2: you know. And so I said the online to it is,
Speaker 2: if I do it that way, we're there for the
Speaker 2: right reason. It's not about the check. It's about the
Speaker 2: artist and finding great artists and doing the decisions or
Speaker 2: making the decisions that are right for the artists, not
Speaker 2: right for the management company. Where at Shelter excuse me, Sanctuary,
Speaker 2: it was a totally different thing. You know, they were
Speaker 2: making deals with managers for what act they had at
Speaker 2: the time. I did deals with managers who I believed
Speaker 2: in and eventually they will succeed or they'll continue succeeding,
Speaker 2: and that's working. So it's a totally different environment. And
Speaker 2: our you know, we are a fraternity of managers, support staff,
Speaker 2: et cetera, you know, shared services whatever, that really care
Speaker 2: about each other, trade ideas, aren't competitive on who we
Speaker 2: sign realizing one person's been the other, don't take it.
Speaker 2: Don't worries about the company, not the individual. And people
Speaker 2: bought into it, you know, And I'm like, okay, so
Speaker 2: that's kind of the philosophy of the company, if that
Speaker 2: makes sense.
Speaker 1: Yes, Okay, BMG. What's their ownership position, what's their deal?
Speaker 2: Well, the deal's changed since Heartwork left, okay, and that's
Speaker 2: all in this that's something I really don't want to
Speaker 2: talk about.
Speaker 1: Well, let me put it this way. Are you the
Speaker 1: owner along with BMG or is every manager owner? What
Speaker 1: is the ownership structure?
Speaker 2: I'm the owner. I was well heart Will Heartwik was there.
Speaker 2: I was sole owner of the company. Okay, So he
Speaker 2: was lending you the money, lending me the money on
Speaker 2: a return of profits, right, non callable, you know. So,
Speaker 2: and then Thomas Coolsfeldt came in and he had a
Speaker 2: different direction, you know than Hartwork did. So things got
Speaker 2: different and we're talking now, and you know they for them,
Speaker 2: for them relieving me of some of the debt. They
Speaker 2: have an ownership, but I'm a majority owner. I don't
Speaker 2: answer to anyone. It's my company. BMG has no say
Speaker 2: and never have of what we do. Okay, who I sign,
Speaker 2: who I bring in as an employer or a manager?
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: So it's always been me running it with no one
Speaker 2: they answered to. Now that that might be why they
Speaker 2: have a problem with it now, because different chairman, you know.
Speaker 1: So, Okay, what is the deal with the managers traditionally,
Speaker 1: like with most of these, I give you a check
Speaker 1: you aren't it out, and then it's fifty to fifty
Speaker 1: of it. Is that your standard dealers.
Speaker 2: That's just that's those aren't accurate, exactly accurate numbers. It
Speaker 2: all depends on the manager.
Speaker 1: Okay, every manager might get a separate deal, a different deal.
Speaker 2: I make it deals directly with the manager. There's not
Speaker 2: there's not a blueprint of what the deal is because
Speaker 2: some people need lesser, some people need more, and some
Speaker 2: people earn more and deserve more or whatever it is.
Speaker 2: So it's all it's all based on the individual, the
Speaker 2: individual's needs and they're projections when doing the deal, so
Speaker 2: they're you know, different than a lot of management companies.
Speaker 2: I don't charge the managers for office space shared services.
Speaker 2: That's something I from my side to provide a better
Speaker 2: service for the manager in return, and that then extends
Speaker 2: the artist getting better service, whether it's a radio staff
Speaker 2: or asset staff or social media whatever it is.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's get down to the nitty gritty. You make
Speaker 1: a deal with the manager, and it's basically a percentage
Speaker 1: of net, and NET just has to do with the band.
Speaker 1: And the manager not with shurance services.
Speaker 2: Right, so I make a deal. Let's I'll do a hypothetically, right, Okay,
Speaker 2: ignore the numbers. Okay, but mister manager, I want you
Speaker 2: to come aboard.
Speaker 1: Are you in?
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm in, all right? What do you want to
Speaker 2: get as a advance draw whatever it is? What do
Speaker 2: you need? And then what kind of staff do you need? Well,
Speaker 2: I need an assistant and myself and I need to
Speaker 2: make such such dollars and assistant such such, and you
Speaker 2: have to pay for my insurance, which I'm happy to
Speaker 2: and then they recoup that amount. And then once they
Speaker 2: recoup it, it's a straight split. And the split is
Speaker 2: depending on the person and how bad I want them,
Speaker 2: how bad they want in, you know, or what's fair
Speaker 2: to them, what's fair to me?
Speaker 1: So okay, what is in the pot? Then at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, that is split at whatever percentage
Speaker 1: it might be.
Speaker 2: Well, it depends, you know, it depends on the cost
Speaker 2: of the individual manager. So when you say pot, what
Speaker 2: do you mean by pott?
Speaker 1: I mean so the shared services are not in the pot?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: So what is in the pot?
Speaker 2: Not think? But they're hard costs nothing but their salary,
Speaker 2: their teeny their insurance, and their employee that the assistant.
Speaker 2: That's it. There's no add on costs, so all they
Speaker 2: have to do is keep recoup those three things. Basically,
Speaker 2: they said, I pay for the shared services. It doesn't
Speaker 2: It doesn't charge back to the individual managers.
Speaker 1: What am I going to get in shared services?
Speaker 2: You're going to get radio, You're going to get asset developers,
Speaker 2: you're going to get social media people, You're going to
Speaker 2: get streaming people, you know those that type of thing.
Speaker 1: Okay, tell me how this is different from red Light.
Speaker 2: Well, I've never worked for red Light, but I've heard,
Speaker 2: but it is my understanding. Anyone can correct me if
Speaker 2: I'm wrong, because I could be that they make the
Speaker 2: same deal I just said, but they add on costs,
Speaker 2: whether it's office space, shared service contribution, all those things.
Speaker 2: So I didn't want to do that. And maybe it's
Speaker 2: foolish for me not doing that, okay, But it was
Speaker 2: more the philosophy of the company, okay, And maybe that
Speaker 2: lessens my profit at the end of the day, but
Speaker 2: I'm okay with that because I'm in this still after
Speaker 2: all these years, to have fun, enjoy the people around,
Speaker 2: care of people, no different than how you take care
Speaker 2: of an artist. You take care of a manager. You
Speaker 2: develop them, you help them, you know. That was my thing.
Speaker 2: I wanted to cultivate managers. And then there was a
Speaker 2: point two years ago that I said to a couple
Speaker 2: guys at the company. I said, the problem, the problem
Speaker 2: here is we're not developing young managers. We're developing young acts,
Speaker 2: but no young managers. Who's going to take over one?
Speaker 2: We're going not necessarily at the company, but in the industry. Okay.
Speaker 2: So I started this incubator team of kids and gave
Speaker 2: them a draw and over the two years, they're all succeeding.
Speaker 2: They recouped, they make money, and they're great. But I
Speaker 2: had to teach them. So I spend more time working
Speaker 2: with these people, opening doors for these people, you know,
Speaker 2: guiding them when needing needed guiding, and that's working. And
Speaker 2: that's kind of what I do for the established managers too.
Speaker 2: I help them with things maybe they're not familiar with,
Speaker 2: whether it's a television show which I've produced shows, you know, whatever,
Speaker 2: those type of things, and or branding opportunities. You know,
Speaker 2: I've had restaurants, I've had wines with my artists, I've
Speaker 2: had clothing companies whatever, Okay, So I have relationships. So
Speaker 2: I help even the established managers to open different relationships
Speaker 2: to provide a better service for their clients. So I
Speaker 2: manage the managers, you know.
Speaker 1: Okay, in terms of your shared service staff. How many
Speaker 1: people is that? What's the head count?
Speaker 2: It's not that big. It's five or six people.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go to your farm team, so to speak. Yeah,
Speaker 1: how many developing managers are you working with?
Speaker 2: Just three? But I only have a total of twelve managers,
Speaker 2: so you know that's thirty percent.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's let's let's stay with it. If you have
Speaker 1: those three, is it the same three or are you
Speaker 1: rolling them over?
Speaker 2: It's the same three right now. But I add to it.
Speaker 2: I will add to it as these as these guys
Speaker 2: go up. Then I bring another level in and they
Speaker 2: just you know that it hasn't happened yet, no, because
Speaker 2: it's been two years and it just got to the
Speaker 2: point that my lit Mitz test, you know, the proof
Speaker 2: of concept is proving that it was a good concept,
Speaker 2: you know, So now it's time to start looking.
Speaker 1: Okay, where did you find these three?
Speaker 2: Well, one is my son who was working who was young,
Speaker 2: who's twenty seven, but when he started twenty five, but
Speaker 2: he had been working for Live Nation up in Chicago,
Speaker 2: h running like the Aragon ball okay at a young age,
Speaker 2: great kid, you know, like me, a college dropout okay,
Speaker 2: but had a thirst. And the other one was my
Speaker 2: nephew who who was Mick Fleetwood's assistant for like three
Speaker 2: years during a big tour during the whole period, so
Speaker 2: he learned that kind of you know, relationship. And my son,
Speaker 2: Jackson grew up with me managing Fleetwood Mac and on
Speaker 2: the plane with us, you know, his whole life as
Speaker 2: a kid, so he knows how artists think at an
Speaker 2: early age. So now it was really teaching these two
Speaker 2: cats who knew how to deal with artists, talk to artists,
Speaker 2: respect the artists, teach them the business part of it.
Speaker 2: And so that was what the two years was basically.
Speaker 2: But then they went out and signed all these bands
Speaker 2: and some I helped them with some I didn't, and
Speaker 2: whether they were established bands or identifying talent very young
Speaker 2: and getting him up to There's a kid that they
Speaker 2: managed called Hunter Mets who was just signed by Interscope
Speaker 2: and Sony ATV Publishing and is touring and has an
Speaker 2: immense amount of monthly listeners and it's just blowing up.
Speaker 2: And they showed him, they introduced me to him in
Speaker 2: a room where the guy had three people in the audience,
Speaker 2: and so they introduced them to writers, to all this
Speaker 2: collaborators into a world and now it's blowing up. All right,
Speaker 2: So there's a z the learning curve. Okay, getting it.
Speaker 2: Then they have some bands from the the late early
Speaker 2: two thousands, you know, like a Hinder or a or
Speaker 2: a bands like that in fuel and those say they
Speaker 2: bread and butter bands because those bands still tour. Okay,
Speaker 2: So build your business kind of like I did, and
Speaker 2: you don't need to do it this way, but this
Speaker 2: is the way I did it was I got established
Speaker 2: bands right away, and then you start working on the
Speaker 2: development because you need to be able to afford to
Speaker 2: do the development and you also want to live and
Speaker 2: pay your bills. So get those bands and then in
Speaker 2: that period develop bands at the same time.
Speaker 1: So, okay, who's the third person.
Speaker 2: Third person I'm not going to say right now, but
Speaker 2: it's there.
Speaker 1: And wait, wait, wait, just I don't need to know
Speaker 1: exactly who this person is, but there's someone who started
Speaker 1: two years ago.
Speaker 2: Who's also are he caman?
Speaker 1: And he is doing essentially with the other two.
Speaker 2: He is working with that team.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, let's go back a step. The five people
Speaker 1: insured services? What exactly do those five do?
Speaker 2: A lot of them do crossover stuff, But basically what
Speaker 2: you're trying to do is cover radio assets because you know,
Speaker 2: in today's world, you've got to deliver so many assets,
Speaker 2: visual assets, you know, online, YouTube, whatever, TikTok So, there's
Speaker 2: a person who does assets radio. There's a streaming specialist
Speaker 2: okay that works with the streaming companies. There's a touring
Speaker 2: component person you know who helps And now that I'm
Speaker 2: talking so slow, I forgot the other one, but I
Speaker 2: come up with it.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, I'll come back to you. Okay. Q Prime
Speaker 1: has a dedicated radio team. Is that something? If I
Speaker 1: go with you, I'm going to get the equivalent service.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Let me go back the other way before we get
Speaker 1: back to radio and streaming. Ay, you say you have
Speaker 1: twelve managers. Now, how does it ultimately happen? Do you
Speaker 1: hear about somebody is somebody shopping? How does it go?
Speaker 2: You know, in the beginning it's different than now Okay,
Speaker 2: we'll tell me both.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So in the beginning, it was I would identify lone
Speaker 2: wolf managers people that worked on their own okay, not
Speaker 2: part of an infrastructure business. And in today's music business
Speaker 2: you need so much help because it's management is so
Speaker 2: much more time intense, and your job description is so
Speaker 2: much different than what it was when I started. So
Speaker 2: I can help you because I have an infrastructure and
Speaker 2: you can use my services too. We'd like you to
Speaker 2: come in, you know, then you sit down and talk
Speaker 2: and you do the deal. Now more people are coming
Speaker 2: to us, you know, looking for a home or leaving
Speaker 2: a major company, some that you have referenced to get
Speaker 2: a different situation.
Speaker 1: Okay, to what degree is there someone who's saying, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to work independently anymore, and
Speaker 1: it's making the rounds and talking to everybody, and you're
Speaker 1: part of that picture. Yeah that happens. Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so you're pitching me. Okay, I'm talking to the other
Speaker 1: big companies. What is your cell? What is it that
Speaker 1: you say?
Speaker 2: The sell is totally the environment of our workplace, the
Speaker 2: services we provide, and me as a person.
Speaker 1: Okay, someone like Irving always takes fifteen, doesn't have a contract.
Speaker 1: Other people take twenty. They get it all on paper.
Speaker 1: Does everybody have the same deal with the acts in
Speaker 1: your company now? No, Do you have a philosophy about that?
Speaker 1: What percentages and whether we have paper?
Speaker 2: I think yeah, paper is not always easy to get,
Speaker 2: you know, And so it really depends on the thirst
Speaker 2: for the manager or the artist, okay, because every manager
Speaker 2: we have or every artist we have is a representation
Speaker 2: of what we are. Okay. So sometimes no different than
Speaker 2: buying cars or in cars are more expensive. I don't know,
Speaker 2: you know, but it's it's I don't like working with
Speaker 2: this or nothing. It's all about, hey, dude, I dig you,
Speaker 2: let's do it. We'll figure it out. We'll figure out.
Speaker 2: I dig you, let's do it.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: So it's that kind of related. It's a hippie in mentality,
Speaker 2: you know. It's like it's it's I do and it
Speaker 2: could be the wrong way to go, okay, but right
Speaker 2: now it seems to be working. But it makes me happy.
Speaker 2: And if I'm not happy, I don't want to do
Speaker 2: this anymore other than you know, fleevand Macro, dis ease here,
Speaker 2: Crowdhouse or whatever.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. Do you have enough money
Speaker 1: so you don't have to do this if you didn't
Speaker 1: want to?
Speaker 2: Yes, My people in my personal world, business world, personal
Speaker 2: business world, wonder why I do this? You know, why
Speaker 2: are you doing this? You don't need to do this.
Speaker 1: He is all the money you have from representing artists everything. Okay,
Speaker 1: I started, I started. I started my company in a
Speaker 1: one bedroom apartment with my wife and a new child,
Speaker 1: and from there it just kept on going. Just to
Speaker 1: be clear, what year are we talking about.
Speaker 2: Well, I started in the mail room at Gallan Morey in.
Speaker 1: Oh wait, wait, well let's let's hold that for a second, because.
Speaker 2: When I was in the one room. Okay, ninety two,
Speaker 2: ninety three.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to some of the things you said.
Speaker 1: You talked about your young team signing someone who had
Speaker 1: a deal with Inner.
Speaker 2: Scope, yet who didn't have a deal, who was inempenent.
Speaker 2: We were putting music independentty but now has a deal
Speaker 2: with Okay.
Speaker 1: In the old days, the record company was an integral part. Okay,
Speaker 1: would you sign an act? I realized everything is different
Speaker 1: because you have different managers, et cetera. But talking about
Speaker 1: general philosophy, how important is the label partner at this point,
Speaker 1: and is it necessary.
Speaker 2: I don't think the I don't think the label is
Speaker 2: important to you need real muscle or real funding. Okay,
Speaker 2: So as far as the development, I think we're more
Speaker 2: equipped to develop than anyone. We know that the artist
Speaker 2: is not one dimensional records only. It's a truly a
Speaker 2: management of three to sixty, not like the three sixty
Speaker 2: the labels talk about. My goal when I sign an
Speaker 2: artist is not putting out a single and having success.
Speaker 2: Mine is having ten years what's in twenty years? You know,
Speaker 2: and building a career. And really that's where the rewards
Speaker 2: come in. It's not off a single. You know, it
Speaker 2: might be too a label because they monetize and do
Speaker 2: things differently.
Speaker 1: Okay, not every act is a major label interested in right,
Speaker 1: if you found an act that does not fit into
Speaker 1: one of their slots, would you still work with the
Speaker 1: actors say there's no deep pocket, I'm not interested.
Speaker 2: No, we would work because there's ways to put out
Speaker 2: music obviously, as you know in today's world that can
Speaker 2: get attention without without going through traditional distribution or or
Speaker 2: traditional record companies. You know, it's it's it's different. And
Speaker 2: then I think if we really believe in that artist,
Speaker 2: the labels will come and at that time we'll decide
Speaker 2: if that's the right direction or not. I will sign
Speaker 2: an act or I will encourage my managers to sign
Speaker 2: an act based solely, not on algorithms or streams or monthlies,
Speaker 2: you know, on your belief or my belief in that
Speaker 2: artist as a human being, as an artist, you know,
Speaker 2: and and that they share a vision, you know. And
Speaker 2: so that's how we.
Speaker 1: So theoretically it could be a Klesmer artist.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And theoretically yes.
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, let's go back to breaking down some of
Speaker 1: these things. You have. Radio, How important is radio today?
Speaker 2: One, it's very important to the artist, Okay. Whether it's
Speaker 2: important in the big picture, not as much as it
Speaker 2: used to be, obviously, but the artists still sees in
Speaker 2: their mind radio and important thing. So I have we
Speaker 2: have a band, okay that's on the Active Rock charts,
Speaker 2: and it's had three number one singles on the Active
Speaker 2: Rock chart on one record, and we're about to have
Speaker 2: the fourth single. No one has fourth single, the fourth
Speaker 2: single number one that is solely no, I won't say so.
Speaker 2: That's that's from the efforts of Tyson, who's had my
Speaker 2: radio apartment. Okay, he works it. He's on the road
Speaker 2: constantly for and he does all our bands. You look
Speaker 2: at artists like Scott Stapp and yeah, Creed is on
Speaker 2: fire right now. And we bot when Scott came back
Speaker 2: to me because I worked with him earlier on and
Speaker 2: he said, I really haven't had six sess since being
Speaker 2: with you. Dude, will you manage me again? I said, no,
Speaker 2: I can't manage you, but this guy my company can.
Speaker 2: But now he's got the highest ranking single he's ever
Speaker 2: had in his career, you know, because of what we're
Speaker 2: doing and how we're doing it. But okay, go back
Speaker 2: to the band with the four number one singles or
Speaker 2: three with potentially the fourth, Okay, is that changing their streams?
Speaker 2: Their download is their record not physical record sales? Not
Speaker 2: that much?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: Is it helping their touring a little bit more okay
Speaker 2: than the other things. So it's really about and it's
Speaker 2: it's all John of specific how you have to market
Speaker 2: and break a band, Okay in the active rock world,
Speaker 2: which is still somewhat touring driven. Okay, And it's not
Speaker 2: a When.
Speaker 1: You say touring driven, you mean that's where the revenue
Speaker 1: is or across pollination with the radio.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's where the revenue is really, you know, and
Speaker 2: that's how the band survives, and so you know, in
Speaker 2: other formats it's totally different. But talking about this one example,
Speaker 2: they're touring goods bigger and bigger. They open up for
Speaker 2: bigger acts, or they're headlining bigger venues, you know. And
Speaker 2: so that's the goal because once you get a loyal
Speaker 2: fan base that buys hard tickets, your career can go
Speaker 2: on and on as long as you don't screw your
Speaker 2: audience or do stuff they don't understand.
Speaker 1: So just because you mentioned it, what might an act
Speaker 1: do that the audience doesn't understand.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you there's a there's a lot of things.
Speaker 2: But if you if you go to a show and
Speaker 2: you know five of their songs and you love those songs,
Speaker 2: and you go to it, but they drop a new
Speaker 2: song that's a disco song, their fans react and say
Speaker 2: that I'm not into this. You lost me. You're not
Speaker 2: who I thought you were. And this is a terrible, terrible,
Speaker 2: crass example. But the reason McDonald's is so successful is
Speaker 2: you know what you're getting when you go to McDonald's.
Speaker 2: There are no surprises. You don't want to surprise your
Speaker 2: You want to do better and better music and keep
Speaker 2: putting out music because that's you know, legacy evolving. All
Speaker 2: that's fine, but the genre switch is a very difficult thing. Okay,
Speaker 2: So stay true to who you are and who your
Speaker 2: audience is or you jeopardize losing your audience. Now, if
Speaker 2: it's so important for you to go into the disco
Speaker 2: world in this scenario, I don't know why I see disco,
Speaker 2: but what the hell? And you know there's that risk,
Speaker 2: but you still decide to do it. Well, that's your choice,
Speaker 2: then okay, and we'll stick by and let's keep on
Speaker 2: trying to make it work, you know. But usually those
Speaker 2: relationships will go sou because then they're not satisfied because
Speaker 2: they didn't break in that genre, the new genre, you know,
Speaker 2: And so it can happen. I haven't really experienced that
Speaker 2: with any of my personal bands that I manage, but
Speaker 2: you see it when when you have a band and
Speaker 2: there's one band member who's bored with what they're doing,
Speaker 2: so they're going to go out and do a solo project,
Speaker 2: and that solo project is so far removed from what
Speaker 2: the band's image was and music was that their fans
Speaker 2: show up from the band and go to the solo
Speaker 2: show and it's totally different things. They don't come back,
Speaker 2: So now you've got to build a whole new fan base,
Speaker 2: usually at a later age that's almost impossible.
Speaker 1: Just to be very clear, you're saying in this typothetical,
Speaker 1: I have a band five members were active rock type people. Right,
Speaker 1: I make a singer song right around, let's not go
Speaker 1: totally up to Okay, you know see it's you know,
Speaker 1: hip hop pop whatever something you know you can sort
Speaker 1: of see. While I'm a musician, I make a quieter record,
Speaker 1: and I make the record and I go on the road.
Speaker 1: There are examples Todd run Green is run into this
Speaker 1: where he goes on the road. Even though he tells
Speaker 1: people I'm not doing the hits, I'm doing X, they
Speaker 1: still come expecting the hits. But with this scenario, I
Speaker 1: do my singer songwriter record. People know who I am.
Speaker 1: You are saying the negative experience that we're proposing is
Speaker 1: going to impact the band's business.
Speaker 2: Ah, maybe not if there's separation, but it will pack
Speaker 2: the potential success. But there are examples where my theory
Speaker 2: is wrong or what I'm saying is wrong. You look
Speaker 2: at Stained and Aaron or you and he goes in
Speaker 2: the kind of country space. He did a great job.
Speaker 2: And not that I'm a Stained fan or anything, but
Speaker 2: watching the business of it, he did it, So you know,
Speaker 2: so that is you know, that is one of those cases,
Speaker 2: and there are other cases.
Speaker 1: Well, let me just be very general, Okay. The hardest
Speaker 1: thing today is to get traction at all and to
Speaker 1: get noticed. And it's not driven as you're you're putting
Speaker 1: radio down towards the bottom of the pyramid, and it's
Speaker 1: not driven by the traditional methods. So once you gain traction,
Speaker 1: to what degree are you saying advising the artists? You've
Speaker 1: got to stay in the same path. Dude.
Speaker 2: First of all, I'm not putting radio way down there,
Speaker 2: and I don't want anyone out there to think I shut.
Speaker 1: It out right, Okay. I got somebody working there, so
Speaker 1: it's important.
Speaker 2: And we have bands that work, can we let and
Speaker 2: record radio stations have been very good to us, so
Speaker 2: with all due respect, but there are other ways to
Speaker 2: do it. Okay. So what was your question again, because
Speaker 2: I focused on that one line.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, let me say, is a lot of words
Speaker 1: for a general, let me enter it a different way.
Speaker 1: There are some managers who are completely transactional. I realize
Speaker 1: you have twelve managers and none are going to be
Speaker 1: the same. Some say to the act, you deliver the
Speaker 1: record and I'll take care of the rest. Others want
Speaker 1: to sit there and discuss with the act where the
Speaker 1: record is going, what they're doing. What kind of manager
Speaker 1: are you me?
Speaker 2: Personally? I discussed with the artists. I'm very the bands
Speaker 2: that I personally manage, right I am very close to Okay,
Speaker 2: extremely close. I'm a well, since you're the manager, let's
Speaker 2: just name those bands. Yeah. With zz Top, I'm extremely
Speaker 2: close to the band. To Bailly, he's doing a solo
Speaker 2: record right now. He sends me a song. Every time
Speaker 2: he's done, we talk about it. I'd say, well, what
Speaker 2: about this? What about that? And you know, stay on
Speaker 2: course once again, stay on course, you know. So that's
Speaker 2: you know, one example, Mick Fleetwood, who I've been around
Speaker 2: for thirty five years, managing Fleetwood, Mac, managing Mac, et cetera.
Speaker 2: He is doing this crazy record and this is kind
Speaker 2: of out of what we're talking about, but since you
Speaker 2: bring it up, but he's doing this record and what
Speaker 2: happened when we ended the tour in twenty nineteen, the
Speaker 2: last Fleetwood Mac tour. He's bored. He goes back to
Speaker 2: his house in Maui and he's doodling on the guitar.
Speaker 2: Eventually but ukulele to start and he's writing these songs
Speaker 2: and they're really rough, you know, really rough. But he's
Speaker 2: sending like five hundred a day to me in the
Speaker 2: middle of the night. Okay, you know, hard to follow. Okay,
Speaker 2: hard to follow, especially for me. But he has this
Speaker 2: guy he communicates with, which this guy named Carl Fok
Speaker 2: who's the Swedish producer that's part of the Max Martin
Speaker 2: world all that kind of stuff. And he starts listening
Speaker 2: to these tidbits and he's like, these are fucking amazing.
Speaker 2: These are amazing. We need to get together and let's
Speaker 2: write songs. So Mick and Carl write ten songs and
Speaker 2: record demos of him in mixed studio and Maui. Keep
Speaker 2: in mind that Mick had been in Fleetwood Mac for
Speaker 2: sixty years whatever it is. No one ever has asked
Speaker 2: him to write a song, right, No one asked him
Speaker 2: if he could sing. He's singing on this too. I
Speaker 2: mean we have other singers. Nobody's singing. No one ever asked,
Speaker 2: including his manager Carl. No one said Mick write a song,
Speaker 2: So shame on me, shame on everyone. These songs are
Speaker 2: so amazing, and we have big name artists doing one
Speaker 2: doing a song each on the record with Mick doing
Speaker 2: some of the vocals, or one song mixes the whole vocals,
Speaker 2: He wrote the whole music. So aa level artists, okay,
Speaker 2: are all doing this. So I'm very involved in finding
Speaker 2: those other ones. I'm involved in the songs, which ones
Speaker 2: we should do. So going back to that original question,
Speaker 2: you know, it's like it's that way or you know.
Speaker 2: Then there's Neil Finn, who is, first of all, a
Speaker 2: wonderful person, Okay, like a really really wonderful person who
Speaker 2: I really like and I got to know when we
Speaker 2: asked him to join Fleetwood Mac when Lindsay left, and
Speaker 2: we built a great relationship during that tour, you know,
Speaker 2: and we talked about me working with him and I
Speaker 2: agreed because he was He's so talented. I mean, this
Speaker 2: guy is incredible. So that relationship has blossomed that we're close.
Speaker 2: I was staying with my family and his family and
Speaker 2: his Greek compound on this island, you know, vacationing, and
Speaker 2: he was at my wedding and sharing his wife is awesome.
Speaker 2: So we're family, you know. And I become so close
Speaker 2: to my clients that no one, no artist needs another friend. Okay.
Speaker 2: But if you get along with them, you almost become
Speaker 2: like a brother. Okay. You fight like a brother, you
Speaker 2: love like a brother, You loyal like a brother, okay.
Speaker 2: And that's really how it works with me. And fortunately,
Speaker 2: my personality gets along with these people, you know. And
Speaker 2: it might have to do with how I was brought
Speaker 2: up or whatever it is, or how I moved around
Speaker 2: the country my whole life because of what my dad did,
Speaker 2: you know, all this kind of stuff. So I can adapt,
Speaker 2: you know, and I adjust.
Speaker 1: Okay. Tell me about saying something to the artist that's
Speaker 1: negative or they don't want to hear.
Speaker 2: Well, you usually don't just say it out right. You
Speaker 2: got a plan, okay. So it's really like, you know,
Speaker 2: you're going back to music, okay, and an individual artist Okay.
Speaker 2: Use that as the example. So Tommy Lee, okay, Molly
Speaker 2: could CRUs not really happening at that time, and he
Speaker 2: has issues with you know, the past thema, his actions,
Speaker 2: his behavior, and he's really tired of talking about. Okay,
Speaker 2: go write a book, and you be honest in that
Speaker 2: book and tell him every answer to every one of
Speaker 2: those questions, and you will not have to answer that
Speaker 2: question again. He says, No, I'm not doing that. Now
Speaker 2: you're doing it.
Speaker 1: You're doing it.
Speaker 2: I know the right writer who you'll understand. He'll be
Speaker 2: tongue in cheek. It will be great, but you're being honest.
Speaker 2: And if they ask you again, say hey, read my
Speaker 2: book and walk away. And so he didn't want to
Speaker 2: do it. He did it New York Times bestseller, written
Speaker 2: with Anthony Bozo, who's fantastic, who also did Slash his
Speaker 2: book for me, and Mick Flee's book and a few
Speaker 2: others maybe and my thing I was doing. And he uh.
Speaker 2: But then Tommy after that, you know, didn't want to
Speaker 2: do the television show, which was you know, Tommy Lee
Speaker 2: goes back to college. Yes, corny, but I wanted to
Speaker 2: make him. I wanted to humanize him, okay, because he
Speaker 2: wasn't human. He was known for smacking whatever and whomever
Speaker 2: and all that shit. So so no, we're going to
Speaker 2: do you know, an NBC television show, and Middle America
Speaker 2: is going to not only see you as who you
Speaker 2: are portrayed in the tabloids. So he's hating that idea.
Speaker 2: But we come up with the idea. You're going back
Speaker 2: to college, you're going to live in a dorm, and
Speaker 2: you're going to join the swim team. What do you say?
Speaker 2: You know? And he goes, well, if I don't want
Speaker 2: to do that, well, how about this idea. You're going
Speaker 2: to become a mayor of some small town in Kansas,
Speaker 2: some small town in Kansas, and you're gonna be dealing
Speaker 2: with parking tickets Fourth of July celebration, whatever it is. No,
Speaker 2: I'll do the other one. Okay, we're doing the other one.
Speaker 2: So that's to your question. You know, it's kind of
Speaker 2: turn it around the other what's the alternative? Well, there's
Speaker 2: not Or Tommy, I want to you know, I want
Speaker 2: to make electric music. Okay, you know, and that is
Speaker 2: not going to be easy, and you're fan base from
Speaker 2: Molly Kruz will not come over to that. But that's
Speaker 2: your choice. And he did it and he loves it,
Speaker 2: so he does it out of his own musical passion,
Speaker 2: and you don't want to stop that. Okay, So but
Speaker 2: there's other things. You know, every artist I have is
Speaker 2: that there's that time where there's that conversation you know,
Speaker 2: with all of them, you know, and a lot of
Speaker 2: the ones I don't want to bring up because yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm loyal to my artists and clients and I don't
Speaker 2: you know. But Tommy's okay, because he's a wonderful guy
Speaker 2: and we talk about it. You know, he's great, and
Speaker 2: I don't work with him anymore, but I still love him.
Speaker 1: Okay. Let's go back to Mick Fleetwood's record. Yeah, in
Speaker 1: the pre internet era, you get this record, the record
Speaker 1: company would stir up all sorts of publicity. There'd be
Speaker 1: a single that you would start probably on rock, reed
Speaker 1: you try to cross over to pop or maybe late
Speaker 1: ninety start on pop. There might even be a video.
Speaker 1: Most of the acts of his generation don't even make
Speaker 1: new music, and a lot of them that even the
Speaker 1: biggest acts Elton John got a lot of publicity with
Speaker 1: Brandy Carlisle put out the record. If you check, the
Speaker 1: stream streams are anemic.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 1: Okay, So what do you do with somebody like included?
Speaker 2: First of all, you go into the project realizing those
Speaker 2: issues and those problems and making it clear to the
Speaker 2: artists that these are the issues. But we should still
Speaker 2: make this because it's important for you and parton for
Speaker 2: your legacy, important for you. Letting people know whether it
Speaker 2: sells or not is not as important as how it's reviewed,
Speaker 2: how it's thought of, Okay, and look at it that way.
Speaker 2: Now cut to the realities of how you do work
Speaker 2: it once you do put it out. Well, on this
Speaker 2: particular record, it's self financed, okay, and when it's done,
Speaker 2: which is soon, we'll go out and get a traditional
Speaker 2: record deal, okay. And then how we're going to work
Speaker 2: that record okay, because radio is meaningless, although certain artists
Speaker 2: that we have on it it could work big time.
Speaker 2: So it's really just to be clear.
Speaker 1: Do you have pop artists.
Speaker 2: We have pop artists, we have country artists, we have
Speaker 2: urban hip hop artists.
Speaker 1: So cornicle wall genre you cover.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a cornicop yes, say yes, a collage.
Speaker 2: But this record will live by single download streaming world only.
Speaker 2: It's not going to ever sell like a record, you know,
Speaker 2: because this pop artists their fans don't go along with
Speaker 2: the country artists. Okay, So each individual record single song
Speaker 2: is a different release and that's how you do it.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, yeah, you look at the
Speaker 2: Dolly parton record, Okay, didn't do anything. There was so
Speaker 2: much hype on that, right, you know, nightfully, So she's
Speaker 2: a great artist, you know, but it didn't do anything.
Speaker 2: Compilation records don't do anything anymore, you know. Soundtrack records
Speaker 2: bear a few do you know. But that's it And
Speaker 2: this is no different than that. So it's a song
Speaker 2: by song effort, and it's utilizing the social media of
Speaker 2: those individual artists every time we put out a record.
Speaker 1: Leit wait wait wait wait. So we talked second ago
Speaker 1: about making these records this important part of the legacy. Okay,
Speaker 1: But the way you're talking now is you are looking
Speaker 1: to get lucky. Lucky sort of makes it sound like
Speaker 1: you're not making any effort. I'm trying to say, you
Speaker 1: are trying to create sparks that might create a fire.
Speaker 1: You're still trying to do that.
Speaker 2: You don't give up, you know, you still try for
Speaker 2: the success because is that truly will even enhance the
Speaker 2: legacy and maybe create future projects like this for him,
Speaker 2: for that artist. Okay, And so you want success because
Speaker 2: also the amount of effort we put into this. You
Speaker 2: want to see some return.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: We're doing a documentary around it with a great documentary team,
Speaker 2: and we don't know when that will come out because
Speaker 2: I've got the Fleetwood Mac documentary with Apple with Frank
Speaker 2: Marshall directing, So we've got to hold back on that
Speaker 2: or make it.
Speaker 1: Let's just stop for a second of Fleetwood Mac. How
Speaker 1: does the management work? Okay? Howard Kaufman is dead. Irving
Speaker 1: represents Stevie. No, No, Irving doesn't represent Okay, how does
Speaker 1: it work?
Speaker 2: It's over the term that over the time I've been there,
Speaker 2: it's changed, okay, based on death.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: So my mentor mentor was Howard Kaufman. Sure, okay, because
Speaker 2: he could have tossed me at any time in the
Speaker 2: early years of Fleetwood Mac. Carl you in the way bye,
Speaker 2: I'll tell Fleetwood we're getting ready to you or there's
Speaker 2: no tour because I have Stevie right, Okay. He never
Speaker 2: did that. He let me do my thing. He didn't
Speaker 2: always believe in what I was doing, but it ended
Speaker 2: up paying off what I was doing. So they looked
Speaker 2: at it from different eyes, and he taught me a
Speaker 2: lot but so back then it was just Howard to die. Okay.
Speaker 2: Then Lindsay hires Irving as his solo manager. Okay, now
Speaker 2: Irving's the picture. But Howard passes away. So then Stevie
Speaker 2: for her solo stuff stayed with Sheryl Lewis, who worked
Speaker 2: for Howard, because there'd be a conflict with me because
Speaker 2: I want Fleetwood Mac okay and so. And then when
Speaker 2: Lindsay Laughed left, well, Irving didn't have any artists in
Speaker 2: Fleewood Max, so he was no longer involved and it
Speaker 2: was just me. Okay, but I've always been there half
Speaker 2: and half one tour or a third and then the
Speaker 2: whole type of thing, you know, So it's always changing.
Speaker 2: But a tenth of Fleewood Max is an amazing thing.
Speaker 2: So I'm happy, you know, I had I never had
Speaker 2: an issue with that, and they never had an issue
Speaker 2: Irving Howard. They've protected me my career. You know, we
Speaker 2: get along. I love Irving. He helped me get out
Speaker 2: of Sanctuary with the Universal. He was the one who
Speaker 2: did my deal to get out with Lucien. And you know,
Speaker 2: they're good people to me, and I'm loyal to them,
Speaker 2: and they've helped me in my career, and it gets
Speaker 2: it gets a bit difficult with fleetod Mac when there
Speaker 2: are so many people involved. But the last tour it
Speaker 2: was I was the Fleetwood Mac man. Cheryl Lewis was
Speaker 2: involved because she's Stevie's manager, Okay, Mick and John on
Speaker 2: the trademark the name, so that comes with me too, Okay.
Speaker 2: So it's a complex thing, but it's been an awesome thing,
Speaker 2: I mean just awesome.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: What did you learn from Howard Kauffman, Slow down, Carl Wisdom.
Speaker 2: He was a different kind of manager than me, though,
Speaker 2: you know, I just learned to be cool like him,
Speaker 2: because if you knew Howard, you know he was a
Speaker 2: guy who is never on the microphone or in a picture,
Speaker 2: you know, or doing press. And one thing I learned
Speaker 2: from him was I was going to be the same way.
Speaker 2: This is really my first podcast ever and that there
Speaker 2: was another interview the other day which was my first
Speaker 2: interview ever after thirty five years in the business. Whatever
Speaker 2: it is, you know, it's like I never wanted that,
Speaker 2: you know, and I think that I think that that's
Speaker 2: how Howard was. He was always he came from a
Speaker 2: financial background, accounting background, Okay, so he taught me a
Speaker 2: lot about that which I didn't know that much about.
Speaker 2: But I learned from him, and I learned to pay
Speaker 2: attention of those to those things. And the other thing.
Speaker 2: He was always like, don't overthink it, make a move,
Speaker 2: just do it, just do it. You know, any decisions
Speaker 2: better than no decisions, kid, you know, and that kind
Speaker 2: of philosophy, you know.
Speaker 1: And little since you're close to Irving, what do you
Speaker 1: can learn from Irving? Really?
Speaker 2: How he's really an amazing businessman, okay, you know, and
Speaker 2: not coming from a business background. I learned a lot
Speaker 2: about business. I learned a lot about having an opinion,
Speaker 2: who you trust, who you don't trust, you know, staying
Speaker 2: close to the people you trust, and never screw with him, never,
Speaker 2: you know, because if you screw with a guy.
Speaker 1: Like that, you know.
Speaker 2: But I don't know, I don't know specifically, but I
Speaker 2: know if if I if I call Irving right now,
Speaker 2: he will pick up the and he'll call me right
Speaker 2: back and he'll answer any question or Irving, I have
Speaker 2: someone that needs to get into UCLA right away. All right,
Speaker 2: I'm calling them now. I'll call you right back. Boom
Speaker 2: they're in. You know, He's just that guy for me
Speaker 2: and for many people. I'm sure I'm not exclusive to
Speaker 2: Irving's attention. There are a lot of people, I'm sure.
Speaker 2: But he's that guy. He's on it. He doesn't sleep,
Speaker 2: you know, and he does, but I mean bigularly, and
Speaker 2: he's available to me. That must mean to everybody twenty
Speaker 2: four to seven. He's the work ethic, you know, it's incredible, incredible,
Speaker 2: and I don't think anyone can reproduce what his work
Speaker 2: ethic is.
Speaker 1: Let's go back to some of the core issues of
Speaker 1: the services you provide. Tell me about streaming. Anybody can
Speaker 1: get their song on the service. What is your philosophy
Speaker 1: with playlisting, marketing other things with the major services?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think that's a question which would
Speaker 2: have a different answer every month you ask that question.
Speaker 1: I'm asking right now.
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, playlists aren't as important as they used to be. Okay,
Speaker 2: just to be clear, because because people aren't listening to
Speaker 2: it like they used to. Okay, and you know, every
Speaker 2: artist wants a certain playlist or a couple of specific playlists,
Speaker 2: but then you get them and it really doesn't move
Speaker 2: the needle that much. And although you still want to
Speaker 2: have it because it's at tension or it's a stat
Speaker 2: you know whatever. Okay, I think everything's driven by unfortunately
Speaker 2: not YouTube. I mean, excuse me, TikTok Okay, TikTok. You know,
Speaker 2: but certain demographic don't understand TikTok, so it can't help
Speaker 2: those people, but it can help the younger people. And
Speaker 2: it's so of the moment, and it moves so fast everything,
Speaker 2: And you know, that's why I have shared services people
Speaker 2: to educate me, because what the hell do I know.
Speaker 2: I'm just an old dude who's been managing for a while,
Speaker 2: who has amazing artists, you know. So that's why I
Speaker 2: brought this in if I was going to grow to
Speaker 2: have that, so someone could advise me or advise the
Speaker 2: managers who are a lot smarter in that world than I,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: So give me your snapshot of TikTok.
Speaker 2: Annoying.
Speaker 1: But I think it's annoying on a business level or
Speaker 1: annoying on an experience.
Speaker 2: I think I'm both. Okay, I think and on the
Speaker 2: experience level, that's only a personal opinion. On the business level,
Speaker 2: it makes it very tricky because what works on TikTok
Speaker 2: isn't necessarily what works for me and my beliefs of art,
Speaker 2: you know, of art, okay, And so there's a conflict there.
Speaker 2: Then you talk to a legacy artists say we'll go
Speaker 2: on TikTok, Dude, what the fuck am I going to do?
Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden they're like doing it,
Speaker 2: and yet they're trying too hard and it's not coming
Speaker 2: off naturally and it doesn't work, or he needs it
Speaker 2: more scripted and drawn out, or she does and it
Speaker 2: just doesn't work. You know. But kids doing you know,
Speaker 2: machine gun and Kelly type stuff or you know, whoever
Speaker 2: and who are so persistent in it can really have
Speaker 2: an impact, you know. But you can't get a a
Speaker 2: bono and obviously I don't manage bono, but an artist
Speaker 2: like that or Stevie or whatever to commit to doing
Speaker 2: delivering three assets a day that lives on TikTok, they're
Speaker 2: not going to do it, okay. So without that impact,
Speaker 2: it's not going to really work. So it's it's got
Speaker 2: to be dedicated and the artist has to be dedicated
Speaker 2: towards to that for TikTok to make the movement, the
Speaker 2: bar movement all so okay.
Speaker 1: You know, for years now, acts have had social media teams.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm posting on Facebook. You know, I'm putting
Speaker 1: up stuff. Hey do you still do that? And to
Speaker 1: what extent be when it comes to like TikTok, do
Speaker 1: you say, if you're not doing it yourself, we're not
Speaker 1: even gonna do it at all.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I say if you don't doing
Speaker 2: it yourself, we're not doing it at all. I say,
Speaker 2: if you're not going to partner with us to do
Speaker 2: it and provide access and the energy to do it,
Speaker 2: then there's no point in doing it. Okay. What was
Speaker 2: the other part of the question.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that kind of answers it, and okay,
Speaker 1: so let's assume you have an act. In the old days,
Speaker 1: there weren't many opportunities outside the music, and then in
Speaker 1: the late sixties and seventies, the philosophy was we're not
Speaker 1: going to do endorsements, not going to do sponsorships. They're
Speaker 1: going to hurt us. Now there's some classic examples here.
Speaker 1: I mean, the Beatles set the trend, not because they
Speaker 1: knew what they were doing, they just did it. But
Speaker 1: then you had people conscious like Neil Young said I'm
Speaker 1: not going to do it, and he maintains credibility. The
Speaker 1: other three do not, even though certainly Steven Stills has
Speaker 1: incredible talent. David Crosby now dead. Okay, so what is
Speaker 1: your philosophy with an act saying sponsorship, endorsements, merge that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, first of all, TV changed the world, okay,
Speaker 2: of how artists look at that, and then the Internet
Speaker 2: changed the world how you look at it? And I
Speaker 2: think it's hard. If the brand you're associate the brand
Speaker 2: the artist is associating with makes sense for that artist,
Speaker 2: it's great. Okay, it's great. And or the business they're
Speaker 2: getting in makes sense for that artist, I think it's great.
Speaker 2: I think that if Fleetwood Mac did a Jack in
Speaker 2: the Box commercial or whatever, it would kill It would
Speaker 2: be bad, just bad, okay, But if they did, if
Speaker 2: a McK fleewood did a Louis Vuitton like Sean Connery did, Okay.
Speaker 1: That won't hurt.
Speaker 2: I mean because he's a traveler or whatever.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like, it's like that, and I think, you know,
Speaker 2: the sponsorship of tours is pretty much going away, you know,
Speaker 2: because they didn't do anything for those brands, but building
Speaker 2: lifestyle or products that make sense for that that individual
Speaker 2: band is good, I think. And what it does is
Speaker 2: it protects the artists from living in a cyclical world
Speaker 2: of dropping music touring, dropping music touring, you know whatever
Speaker 2: it is, okay, and it builds a business for them
Speaker 2: that continues. And if you have a brand like a Zeezier,
Speaker 2: Fleetwood Mac, those are worldwide recognized image in Nay, okay,
Speaker 2: how do we do that? So Mick Fleetwood did Fleetwood's
Speaker 2: on Front Street in Maui. It was extremely successful restaurant.
Speaker 2: People loved it. He would be there every night like
Speaker 2: a matre d you know, he'd play when Steven Tyler
Speaker 2: was don Maui or whatever. They get up and jam.
Speaker 2: And we had a restaurant that was doing probably top
Speaker 2: two restaurants in all of Maui, you know, revenue wise,
Speaker 2: and then the fire burned it down. Heina, but it
Speaker 2: was a great asset to Mic. You know, it was
Speaker 2: a perfect environment for him. So was a wine because
Speaker 2: he was in the rest from business. He outside of wine, okay.
Speaker 2: You know with Tommy Lee, we did the television shows.
Speaker 2: We did a t shirt line, a G line, Jane
Speaker 2: line that made sense for who he was. That's what
Speaker 2: he wore. T shirt ripped off T shirts and you
Speaker 2: know whatever. So it was okay, you know, if you're
Speaker 2: talking about if you're talking about Adele doing a.
Speaker 1: Okay, wait wait, wait, let me stop you. I think
Speaker 1: your concept is clear. A manager only gets paid when
Speaker 1: the act makes a deal. When the act is making money,
Speaker 1: agent the same thing. So, certainly in the twenty first century,
Speaker 1: it looks like a lot of people have made deals
Speaker 1: because the percentage partner is gonna get paid, especially in
Speaker 1: a world you're dealing with a lot of legacy acts,
Speaker 1: especially in the world where the acts come and go,
Speaker 1: the business people remain and they say, I'm gonna take
Speaker 1: this money off the table. Okay, I'm gonna do this.
Speaker 1: They never say the artist, no, not good for your
Speaker 1: career whatever. What's your take.
Speaker 2: There, Well, I think that's selling your I think that's
Speaker 2: selling your artists down the road if you take it
Speaker 2: just because there's money involved.
Speaker 1: It's never that black and what.
Speaker 2: It is to me though, it is to me.
Speaker 1: But give me tell me something you told your artists
Speaker 1: not to do. God an actual example.
Speaker 2: I can't think of one, really. I think that there's
Speaker 2: been there's been examples. But oh, one of my older
Speaker 2: artists a huge paycheck for cialis commercial. Nope, don't do it.
Speaker 2: No I should do it. No, don't do it. Wife,
Speaker 2: Yes you should do it. I say, no, you're not
Speaker 2: doing it.
Speaker 1: So the act wanted to do it, Yeah, but I didn't.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us how much money was involved?
Speaker 2: No? It was seven figures. And then there're what about
Speaker 2: z Eezy top cut your beard, Gillette, Well to a
Speaker 2: commercial cutting your beards off and we'll give you a
Speaker 2: million bucks. Okay, We're not doing that. Guys, it's foolish.
Speaker 2: They agreed with me, but I mean they come in
Speaker 2: and I don't sell them on it. I'm like, hell no,
Speaker 2: I don't need that money. That's the beauty of how
Speaker 2: we set up this company because I didn't need the money, okay.
Speaker 2: And I'm not bragging about money, but I didn't need it, okay.
Speaker 2: So everything we do or I do, is really about
Speaker 2: doing what's right, enjoying it, and what's good for the artist.
Speaker 2: You know, it's not about me.
Speaker 1: Okay. Well, let's stay with some of the deals that
Speaker 1: are offered these legacy artists. What is your viewpoint on
Speaker 1: selling your rights, publishing, royalty interests.
Speaker 2: And yeah, we've sold I've been involved in a bunch
Speaker 2: of sales, okay, and it all depends on the individual artist, okay.
Speaker 2: And I think if the artist is sixty five or older, okay,
Speaker 2: it makes a lot of sense to do it from
Speaker 2: a financial standpoint. But a lot of deals, you know,
Speaker 2: when you make that deal, you have to have some
Speaker 2: ability to veto what they might use your product and
Speaker 2: what's your music. And I've been fortunate too, by way
Speaker 2: of relationships to put those stipulations in an agreement. And
Speaker 2: it took a while because we'd fight back and forth.
Speaker 2: But there's also stuff I put in an agreement that
Speaker 2: if we overperform in any one year, they still get
Speaker 2: a percentage passed through to them, even though you own
Speaker 2: one hundred percent of it now okay, So there's safeguards
Speaker 2: you put in there. But they're collecting the money up front, okay.
Speaker 1: Just to make the numbers easy. I'm over sixty five,
Speaker 1: I'm only selling and publishing selling it for a hundred minus.
Speaker 1: Just to make the numbers of you. You're saying you
Speaker 1: have a clause in the contract such that I can
Speaker 1: get paid again.
Speaker 2: The band can get paid. Yeah, yes, and not in
Speaker 2: all the deals I've achieved it.
Speaker 1: When you've achieved that, how is that clause written? Because
Speaker 1: if for no other reason, you know, you can have
Speaker 1: a big year because you're featured in an end title
Speaker 1: on a Netflix show. In In addition, there can be
Speaker 1: steady increases because of new avenues of monetization with you know, Twitch, discord,
Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So how do you
Speaker 1: actually construct something like that?
Speaker 2: You just merely say you're buying this on an average
Speaker 2: of the catalog that you're selling makes a millionaire? Okay,
Speaker 2: a millionaire anytime we go over a million a year
Speaker 2: in revenue that you've collected, we get a piece of
Speaker 2: that above a million.
Speaker 1: Okay, just to be clear, how big a piece might
Speaker 1: it be depends on the artist. I mean, is it
Speaker 1: five percent? Is it twenty five percent?
Speaker 2: I gotta calculate it because I just got another check million.
Speaker 1: It's it's like, okay, now they're not buying these assets
Speaker 1: and one thing that people buy them there other than merk,
Speaker 1: maybe all these people are very sophisticated financially. They're making
Speaker 1: the money, so they're expecting to both get their money
Speaker 1: and make more money. Otherwise they're not going to do
Speaker 1: it right. Okay, so there's a issues of inflation. Be
Speaker 1: give you an example which you don't represent, but I know, okay, Toto,
Speaker 1: they didn't sell, but they're just like this, all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, Wheezer does Africa and it blows it up
Speaker 1: with your contract. I'm going to get with pulling the number,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get thirty percent of the upside. Let's just
Speaker 1: assume that stays at a high level.
Speaker 2: And it keeps going. But that's why none of not
Speaker 2: many companies would have done that. It was a relationship
Speaker 2: thing that they did with me. Okay, I don't have
Speaker 2: that on online.
Speaker 1: Okay, but let's just say in your particular case, the
Speaker 1: number that you get in excess, let's just make it easy.
Speaker 1: You see a million dollars, so you're making a million dollars.
Speaker 1: Now over a million, the act gets thirty percent or
Speaker 1: ten depending on the Okay, we're just talking. I know.
Speaker 2: But what about my y Okay, you put it just
Speaker 2: to be just to make the numbers easy. So you
Speaker 2: went to middlebary digit, Yes I did.
Speaker 1: We can talk about that. But let me just finish
Speaker 1: this point. The million dollar floor would not inflate. It
Speaker 1: might last for thirty years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's the risk. The thing was they early
Speaker 2: on on these deals three years ago, whatever I ran
Speaker 2: was okay, it was about market share too. Okay, it
Speaker 2: wasn't about just business. It was market share and press
Speaker 2: releases and saying then that would gather then. So it's
Speaker 2: a lost lead or whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 2: But that could be the case. You know. The other
Speaker 2: important part to the artist is some creative control or
Speaker 2: veto right, which some of the agreements have that specifically
Speaker 2: written in it, some don't. But then it's a relationship
Speaker 2: because if you're just selling the publishing, well, I'm never
Speaker 2: going to prove the master then, so you're not going
Speaker 2: to get it anyways. Okay. So there's a lot of
Speaker 2: ways to protect. There's a lot of ways to enhance,
Speaker 2: get gather more or save you know, save the name.
Speaker 2: And it's not in a political campaign. You know that
Speaker 2: you don't believe in it. Okay, So there needs to
Speaker 2: be this.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, when you've made these deals, how much have
Speaker 1: you done the negotiation and how much has the attorney
Speaker 1: done in the negotiation.
Speaker 2: Managers not allowed to negotiate.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, under California law and no, but it's a
Speaker 1: manager for resident.
Speaker 2: I'm a Tennessee resident actually so.
Speaker 1: Yes, but it's got to do where the contract is. Really.
Speaker 2: But but the thing is is I'm I can say
Speaker 2: I'm very hands on. I find the deal. I don't
Speaker 2: negotiate it, but I set the parameters of the deal
Speaker 2: and what we're looking for. And then the attorney gets
Speaker 2: involved and comes back to me and say, Nope, not
Speaker 2: doing it that way, doing it this way. They call me,
Speaker 2: they work me talk to the attorney, and I go
Speaker 2: back to the attorney, you know, and he's doing the negotiations.
Speaker 2: But I'm very involved my attorneys. Uh, and we have
Speaker 2: a lot of great attorneys, you know. But I go
Speaker 2: get the deals. Okay, I get deals. I don't rely
Speaker 2: on on whomever you whoever, big name attorney to find
Speaker 2: me deals. I do them all myself, you know, because
Speaker 2: that's and you can draft it and you can do specifics.
Speaker 2: But I like making deals and I like going out
Speaker 2: and chewing it up with the guy. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like, okay, let's switch gears again. So your anchor
Speaker 1: in Fleetwood Mac is Mick Fleetwood. How did you get
Speaker 1: connected to myth Gleewood.
Speaker 2: A great story. You know, it's unbelievable. You know, when
Speaker 2: I worked at Sandy Gallen this is right around right
Speaker 2: before then, I was fortunate enough to work for a
Speaker 2: guy named Barry Josephson. And Barry left Gallen Morey to
Speaker 2: work for Joel Silver, the film producer. He was working
Speaker 2: on an artist named Andrew Dice Clay. Okay, so all
Speaker 2: of a sudden he leaves. I become close to Dice.
Speaker 2: Dice convinces me to leave Sandy and be his director
Speaker 2: of development because he had a we were going to
Speaker 2: do a film deal, television deal, director of touring. He
Speaker 2: was selling out Madison Square Garden and run my business
Speaker 2: like really a manager's job. So I took that job on.
Speaker 2: We had huge, huge success, and that was my first client,
Speaker 2: you know, And it was like an experience because it
Speaker 2: was in all businesses. Somebody who in mixed business manager's
Speaker 2: office knew me and was telling the story of my
Speaker 2: success with Dice. And keep in mind were a lot
Speaker 2: of people involved. Okay, so I'm not taking away, but
Speaker 2: what I did and how I got in and I
Speaker 2: was young, okay, road and so he goes, I want
Speaker 2: to meet this cat, So I get this call from
Speaker 2: a business manager says, hey, Fleetwood wants to meet you.
Speaker 2: Will you come in? Yeah, I'll be there tomorrow, no problems, problem,
Speaker 2: what you are we in? Let's see, I got to
Speaker 2: go back to Clinton Clinton ninety four. I guess, yeah,
Speaker 2: ninety two, Okay, ninety two, Okay, thank you. So that
Speaker 2: was ninety two, and Fleetwood and I sit in a
Speaker 2: room with his then fiance to be ex wife at
Speaker 2: some point, but a wonderful woman. Okay, she and our
Speaker 2: friends still. But within an hour of leaving the meeting,
Speaker 2: I get a call and I go, Fleetwood's hiring you
Speaker 2: come back or whatever. I go back. He goes, here,
Speaker 2: here's what we're doing. We got the band the Zoo
Speaker 2: out okay, which we're selling pretty good records, that band
Speaker 2: that was happening, And he says, but my dream is
Speaker 2: getting Fleetwood Mac up and running again. How are we
Speaker 2: going to do that? So I came up with this
Speaker 2: plan and we ended up doing the dance, which was
Speaker 2: the MTV special five million records Tour of the year,
Speaker 2: you know. And so in my way working with Fleetwood,
Speaker 2: we got everyone together. Okay, how I did it? I
Speaker 2: don't really want to sing.
Speaker 1: I'm going to jump back before it jump forward. Now,
Speaker 1: let's say you're involved in selling somebody's rights. Seemingly all
Speaker 1: your big acts you were not there for minute one,
Speaker 1: you know, zsy.
Speaker 2: Top, none of them Bokay, so I was forever last,
Speaker 2: but he fired me, right.
Speaker 1: So what it comes to an act that's had a
Speaker 1: forty year career and you're selling the rights of the publishing.
Speaker 1: How do you decide what the commission is? Is it
Speaker 1: your standard commission?
Speaker 2: Now I give him a reduction because they're getting forty million,
Speaker 2: fifty whatever it is, you know, off of one person, okay,
Speaker 2: in a band or it was easy, it was the
Speaker 2: whole thing, but the whole band. But I reduce it.
Speaker 2: But it's still a substantial percentage. And I think I've
Speaker 2: been really fortunate with my clients that they were willing
Speaker 2: to always take care of me. You know, if you
Speaker 2: look at ZIZI. I've been with zz for seventeen years,
Speaker 2: how many managers you know, except for a few, you know,
Speaker 2: Tony demitriotis Petty, Dave Matthews, and but there's very few.
Speaker 2: And they're loyal and I'm loyal and they know that,
Speaker 2: you know. And and these were all done during COVID,
Speaker 2: and it made sense, and I'm happy they did it,
Speaker 2: and I and I did very well during COVID.
Speaker 1: So you pull the number out of your ass, how
Speaker 1: do you get a number to sell it for? No?
Speaker 1: Your percentage?
Speaker 2: It's a conversation just between that person and I.
Speaker 1: Well, no one likes to give up money.
Speaker 2: They I don't know if that's true.
Speaker 1: I don't want to get into artists. One thing new,
Speaker 1: I won't talk about artists. That's not necessarily true. No, No,
Speaker 1: here is the story with artists. This is the one
Speaker 1: and only thing they can do. Their name is on
Speaker 1: the marquee. You can always get another act. You're behind
Speaker 1: the scenes. There's for desperations, got a negative quality. But
Speaker 1: the nature of these acts at that core they know
Speaker 1: that somehow, and they're not like regular people. They wouldn't
Speaker 1: have become that successful without it. That doesn't mean they
Speaker 1: can't be reasonable. But these are not your everyday.
Speaker 2: People, clearly not. But what's your question then? At what's
Speaker 2: your point?
Speaker 1: Well, I think you know. I don't think there's a
Speaker 1: specific question there. But let's go back to think.
Speaker 2: I can only speak about my experience, okay, and my
Speaker 2: experience is that all my clients have always been fair
Speaker 2: to me, and they have never except I feel little
Speaker 2: small things, ever questioned. And then and then I'll go
Speaker 2: to them and say, hey, you know what to be fair?
Speaker 2: So and so I'm not going to take fifteen percent
Speaker 2: across on this. I'm not going to do that, Okay,
Speaker 2: but I will take I do think I deserved this much.
Speaker 1: So you won't toss out an initial number on a
Speaker 1: huge p day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or some people of some artists, based on a relationship,
Speaker 2: say what do you think is fair? And they might
Speaker 2: say that I said, well maybe this, well maybe that
Speaker 2: the okay, cool, let's do it.
Speaker 1: I no, have you ever had an experience with the
Speaker 1: artist says well, this is what I think it was fair,
Speaker 1: and it's less than you think is fair.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, And I'm not bullshit. I'm serious. It
Speaker 2: hasn't happened to me. I've been lucky. I take it.
Speaker 1: You know, you know, let's go back to Fleetwood Mac.
Speaker 1: I know on some level you said they didn't want
Speaker 1: to get back to what do we know Fleetwood Mac.
Speaker 1: They performed to Clinton's inaugurations, singing don't stop whatever? What
Speaker 1: was the impediment? John mcviee's seeming legals show. Well, we're
Speaker 1: doing it, we're doing it. Okay, he's there with Mick Mix.
Speaker 1: More of the business guys managed the band for an
Speaker 1: interim there. What was the hang up in getting them
Speaker 1: back together?
Speaker 2: I think it was just individual lives. I think Stevie
Speaker 2: was doing her thing, Lindsay was doing his thing. And
Speaker 2: at the time they got back together, Lindsay was in
Speaker 2: the studio making a record, and at that he had
Speaker 2: a manager at that time, and they called a manager
Speaker 2: and I said, hey, why don't you get Mick and
Speaker 2: Lindsay together. You know, Lindsay's had a lot of success
Speaker 2: with Mick in the studio with him and Mix not
Speaker 2: a producer, but he's a vibe you know, he's a
Speaker 2: vibe guy, and he knows the sound and all that.
Speaker 2: So maybe you have him come down and let's talk,
Speaker 2: you know. And so that happened, and then all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, well why don't we get sell and so down?
Speaker 2: Why don't we get sell and so down. Then they're
Speaker 2: all in a room, you know, recording on Lindsay's record.
Speaker 2: Then you're out there looking at opportunity. Okay, let's go
Speaker 2: to a promoter and see what they pay for a
Speaker 2: fleeting back tour. So I did that without the band
Speaker 2: really being aware of it, but just to see so
Speaker 2: I could be honest and educate the band. Why not,
Speaker 2: you know, number was insane. I wonder if MTV would
Speaker 2: do a special if they got back together. I can
Speaker 2: remember Howard, I think it was Howard. There's no way
Speaker 2: that will happen. Okay, well let me just see, you know.
Speaker 2: And so it happened, and it made sense that they
Speaker 2: did it and became and they did they all got
Speaker 2: it and did it. We recorded a concert. We peppered
Speaker 2: the audience with current artists too, to make it look
Speaker 2: you know, make they were fans, but to make sure
Speaker 2: people on television realized, you know that this is cross genre,
Speaker 2: this is cross demographic, okay, whatever it is. And we
Speaker 2: did that and cover Rolling Stone popped up and just
Speaker 2: kept on going, you know, it kept on okay.
Speaker 1: But generally speaking, the members of the band were saying,
Speaker 1: if the numbers line up were in it, you didn't
Speaker 1: have to do any arm twisting.
Speaker 2: No, there was some politics, but not arm twisting. Christine
Speaker 2: was in right away because wonderful person, you know, and
Speaker 2: just she didn't want to ever be a She was
Speaker 2: a person that didn't want to be a star. Okay,
Speaker 2: respect to that, okay. And she didn't mind sharing the stage.
Speaker 2: She wasn't about going doing another solo record, you know.
Speaker 2: So she was just sitting there in her castle and
Speaker 2: Edinburgh or whatever the hell it is, you know. And
Speaker 2: John's out on his boat crossing the Pacific, you know,
Speaker 2: and Hi cool.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Mick eager to keep his band because he started it
Speaker 2: in the sixties. That's all he's ever known is sleeping back,
Speaker 2: you know. It is it's more than a band, or
Speaker 2: it's more than making money. To him, it's what I do,
Speaker 2: you know. So he's in. And then Lindsay and Stevie
Speaker 2: have their solo projects and both very successful. So how
Speaker 2: do you find the time to get into their schedule
Speaker 2: based on their success? And it just worked out.
Speaker 1: Okay. You said that Mick was at your wedding. That
Speaker 1: would imply that you've been married multiple times.
Speaker 2: Well, no, Mick was only at Mick was at my Yes,
Speaker 2: I've been married three times. One time was for two
Speaker 2: months right before I got married, right before I start
Speaker 2: in the mail room. Okay, that lasted two months because
Speaker 2: I got in the mail room, met Dice left. Okay,
Speaker 2: we're still friends. Okay, we're still friends. Then my other
Speaker 2: wife was the mother of two of my boys. We
Speaker 2: got married in Vegas after a mix show and we
Speaker 2: did it like at the Elvis Chapel or one of
Speaker 2: those things. And it was Fleetwood who put the whole
Speaker 2: thing together. And it was like Beck and Bramlet, Dave Mason,
Speaker 2: all these people were in the audience all, you know.
Speaker 2: And we got married and she was pregnant at the time,
Speaker 2: and they made me marry her and I was happy
Speaker 2: to and I shouldn't say maybe, but they created it.
Speaker 2: And so he was at that one. He wasn't at
Speaker 2: this last one, which was in twenty January twenty twenty
Speaker 2: with Dana, who I share a four year old son.
Speaker 2: So I have I've had three boys. Neil was there.
Speaker 2: Neil Finn was at that one.
Speaker 1: The second marriage. How long did that last?
Speaker 2: Twelve years?
Speaker 1: And why did that end?
Speaker 2: Because my career was blowing up and I wasn't the
Speaker 2: best best husband. I was a good father, I thought,
Speaker 2: but I think but I was gone the whole time.
Speaker 2: I had influences around me that made me a little crazier,
Speaker 2: you know, and my priorities might not have been in
Speaker 2: the right place. And we still talk. You know, everything's
Speaker 2: I you know.
Speaker 1: Okay, So the present wife Dana, When and how did
Speaker 1: you meet her? It's a good one.
Speaker 2: It was fashion week in New York City. Zz Top
Speaker 2: was playing the John Varvados show. There's a cat named Jordan,
Speaker 2: she who ran Geffen, you know. And I was in
Speaker 2: his office one day with Pete Jorn okay, and Jordan
Speaker 2: pulled out a picture of his wife and next to
Speaker 2: the wife was this girl, stunning girl. Who the hell
Speaker 2: is that? And she goes, oh, that's Dana Rossi and
Speaker 2: I said, wow, I want to meet her. And so
Speaker 2: they hooked it up because she hadn't been be in Philadelphia,
Speaker 2: where her parents were live, and she took the train
Speaker 2: up to New York to come to the party, got
Speaker 2: her hotel room. Because we didn't know each other, but
Speaker 2: I just wanted to meet her, you know. So she
Speaker 2: came in for the night.
Speaker 1: She was a model. What was she doing?
Speaker 2: She was not a model. She owned a boutique in
Speaker 2: Santa Monica called Dame and she's stopped. Yeah, she's really American, Italian,
Speaker 2: American or whatever you call it, but really beautiful. And
Speaker 2: it started there and she didn't like me in the beginning,
Speaker 2: and I had to work on it and it ended
Speaker 2: up and then we ended up getting married. And now
Speaker 2: we have Rome and our four year old son, and
Speaker 2: we live in Sun Valley, Idaho, and still have our
Speaker 2: home in La, office in La Nashville, home in Nashville,
Speaker 2: office in Nashville. But my four year old goes to
Speaker 2: preschool in Sun Valley at a school called Community, which
Speaker 2: is amazing school. And that's where they are all the time.
Speaker 2: I'm there all the time unless I'm traveling on business.
Speaker 1: I end up in Ketchum.
Speaker 2: When I the end of from ninth grade to graduating
Speaker 2: high school. I live in Seattle, Okay, and Ketchum harbors
Speaker 2: a lot of Seattleites, especially back in the day less
Speaker 2: now now because more draw there. When I dropped out
Speaker 2: of college Eastern Washington State College, I was a skier
Speaker 2: all my life, you know, I was. I went to
Speaker 2: private school in East Coast where we ski all day.
Speaker 1: And where'd you go to private school?
Speaker 2: I went to private school in New Jersey, actually a
Speaker 2: school called Farbro that had uh it was like a
Speaker 2: school without walls, and so they had this guy John
Speaker 2: franz And who was part of the Swiss ski team,
Speaker 2: who was a teacher. So he would bring me up
Speaker 2: to Vermont and we would study till nine and then
Speaker 2: I'd ski with him, and then we'd go back study
Speaker 2: some more, and then we'd crash out and did that
Speaker 2: for a month like every year type of thing. Okay.
Speaker 2: And I was really into skiing, and so in Seattle,
Speaker 2: I was really I was a teacher in tenth grades
Speaker 2: teaching skiing, and and so I dropped out of college
Speaker 2: and I said, well, I'm going to work in Seattle
Speaker 2: for a little bit, figure out what the hell I'm
Speaker 2: going to do. But then I said, I'm going to Sunvalley,
Speaker 2: going to Ketcham. So a couple, me and my friends
Speaker 2: go to Kitcham. I immediately get a job running Trail Creek,
Speaker 2: which was Hemingway's ex fishing cabin. Okay, so I'm running that.
Speaker 2: I'm young, you know, and they let me work nights
Speaker 2: so I can skiet during day.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I was one of these setups, you know. So I
Speaker 2: loved Ketcham.
Speaker 1: And what year are we in?
Speaker 2: Eighty eighty one, I think? And I loved Ketcham, and
Speaker 2: I left Ketcham to move to Vale, Colorado. But I
Speaker 2: always knew at some point I was going.
Speaker 1: To wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, this is you know
Speaker 1: you speak in my language. Why did you leave Sun
Speaker 1: Valley for Vale?
Speaker 2: Well, we were trying to think figure out a long
Speaker 2: term plan for Carl, meaning my dad and I am home,
Speaker 2: you know, and my dad knew. My dad knew the
Speaker 2: president of United air Lines. At that time, United Airlines
Speaker 2: owned Weston Hotels and they were opening up brand new
Speaker 2: Weston Hotel there. And why doesn't Carl become head of
Speaker 2: food and beverage down in Vale Because he loves the
Speaker 2: ski and he loves the mountains. They gave me that job.
Speaker 2: I moved down there after two and a half three
Speaker 2: years and Sun I moved down there and did that
Speaker 2: for two years. But once again, I worked at nights
Speaker 2: pretty much, so I skied every day.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back to the beginning. How did you
Speaker 1: end up in Sun Valley? Now?
Speaker 2: Oh, like I said, I was drempt of owning a
Speaker 2: house there, and then h COVID hit and really before
Speaker 2: everyone started moving out of La I went up there
Speaker 2: on a vacation with my wife. Okay, and it's a
Speaker 2: good place to get away, open air, it'll be cool.
Speaker 2: So Rob my real estate I call him up. He
Speaker 2: wasn't my agent. Then this is the guy I meet,
Speaker 2: you know, to sell some to the house. I go,
Speaker 2: here's the deal. I only got two more days here.
Speaker 2: I'm going to look at every house, every house, and
Speaker 2: I guarantee you I'm going to buy one. So show
Speaker 2: me thirty houses in two days. He goes, Okay, dude, okay,
Speaker 2: you showed me thirty houses. I bought one. We closed
Speaker 2: a month later, and then Dana and I went up there.
Speaker 2: It was August. Then Dana I went up there, said well,
Speaker 2: let's get out of la and go to the new
Speaker 2: house and open it up. And then we just never
Speaker 2: left because Dana fell in love with Sun Valley catch them.
Speaker 2: I always dreamt that that was going to be the plan.
Speaker 2: We all learned how to work remotely, all right, Well,
Speaker 2: when COVID's over, we'll figure out what we do. Well
Speaker 2: COVID's over, I still couldn't work remotely. My clients live
Speaker 2: around the world, not in La. Record companies are not
Speaker 2: that important to me, or I have other people to
Speaker 2: do it so it's easy. So I keep my house
Speaker 2: in LA in Nashville, as I said earlier, and I
Speaker 2: less two weeks ago in Nashville, freight days here in
Speaker 2: LA for three weeks, and I go back to Sun Valley,
Speaker 2: and then I'll come back four weeks later.
Speaker 1: Generally speaking, in a year. How much you in Sun Valley, LA, Tennessee,
Speaker 1: just on the road. How does it break down?
Speaker 2: Well, if you factor in on the road too, you know,
Speaker 2: outside of LA, and add that in the outside of LA,
Speaker 2: in Nashville, in Sun Valley, figure doing it, probably sixty
Speaker 2: seventy in Sun Valley?
Speaker 1: Okay? To what degree you know, there are other people
Speaker 1: in this business who live in Sun Valley. To what
Speaker 1: degree are you integrated? Are you just in your own world?
Speaker 2: Here's what it started, that I wanted to be in
Speaker 2: my own world, okay, and then people start talking that
Speaker 2: I'm there and they don't really know me, but they
Speaker 2: want to meet me, you know, that type of thing.
Speaker 2: And then you know, for the first three years we
Speaker 2: were secluded, okay, and then your sun starts going to preschool,
Speaker 2: people start meeting you in restaurants, talking to you, and
Speaker 2: then they start calling on you, you know, and they have
Speaker 2: an idea you know or whatever, and so you get
Speaker 2: involved in other things and all of a sudden Hebert
Speaker 2: a Fred you know, and you're walking down the street
Speaker 2: and you know people and it's kind of a personality
Speaker 2: I have too that I'm not. I'm not a dark
Speaker 2: corner guy, you know, kind of kind of bright you know.
Speaker 2: And so like we did that, we did the ear
Speaker 2: Skiar the World Cup final. We're in sun Valley this year,
Speaker 2: sunvill Catch them. These two people, the guy owns the Whiskey,
Speaker 2: which is one restaurant brand, and Jenny Dupree wanted to
Speaker 2: do a festival during that period. So they come to me,
Speaker 2: they say, will you help us? We want talent. You know,
Speaker 2: we don't know what we're doing in that side that respect,
Speaker 2: they knew how to plant it. Okay, all right, fine,
Speaker 2: I'll help. And I put together all the entertainment and
Speaker 2: the show and it was a big success to the show.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know financially, but the event was successful,
Speaker 2: you know, first time festival successful. So then I met
Speaker 2: all these people around there and they saw what I
Speaker 2: was helping there, well, will you help us with this?
Speaker 2: So it kind of snowballs and you know, people, but
Speaker 2: the people are awesome there, you know, and it's like
Speaker 2: it's really cool, you know, and it's really really unique
Speaker 2: gathering of people. Funny story off subject. Okay, when I
Speaker 2: first moved to La from Utah because I failed to Utah.
Speaker 1: Then La, you moved to go skiing in Utah? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: what'd you do in Utah? For how long?
Speaker 2: I've worked in Salt Lake at the Hotel Utah, which
Speaker 2: was which is a morning and they had a rooftop
Speaker 2: restaurant called the Rooftop and there I met Robert Redford
Speaker 2: eating or do O eating or whatever, you know, because
Speaker 2: it was the only real spiffy place. But it didn't
Speaker 2: open till like six. So I'd got a park city skiing,
Speaker 2: you know, or wherever sundays Alta, you know. And so
Speaker 2: but I wasn't there that long. I was only there
Speaker 2: for a season.
Speaker 1: Season.
Speaker 2: So I go to LA and I need a job.
Speaker 2: I moved to La not knowing anyone, not one person,
Speaker 2: not one person on my own, and I'm staying at
Speaker 2: a Western hotel because I had free room nights. And
Speaker 2: I go in I apply for a job at the
Speaker 2: Ruth Chris Ruth's Chris Steakhouse in Beverly Hills, Okay, and
Speaker 2: the cat who owned it was a dude named Paul
Speaker 2: Fleming who was from Arizona via New Orleans, Lafayette. And
Speaker 2: they hired me. And that's where I met my first wife,
Speaker 2: by the way, she ran the place. Okay, So so
Speaker 2: I worked there, get in the music business. Blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: Cut to Sun Valley, Okay, catch them. I'm talking to
Speaker 2: Brandon who owns the whiskey, and he goes, dude, do
Speaker 2: you know a dude named Paul Fleming? Yeah, well I
Speaker 2: was probably you up to him and he said you
Speaker 2: used to work for him, and go, yeah, I used
Speaker 2: to work, but well he lives up here too. Now
Speaker 2: he goes, that dude thought you'd be dead by night,
Speaker 2: but you were the best dress host they ever had
Speaker 2: at a restaurant, okay, because I was always trying to
Speaker 2: pimp and get in the world, you know, of entertainment
Speaker 2: of the world, you know. And so now he and
Speaker 2: I are in a restaurant, are going to be in
Speaker 2: a restaurant together in some value, one of the classic
Speaker 2: restaurants of all of Ketchum. And I don't know if
Speaker 2: you've been to Ketchum, but oh yeah, Okay, where did
Speaker 2: Hemingway eat his last meal?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: A restaurant called Michelle's. He ate every night in Michelle's.
Speaker 2: That kind of a frame thing. Okay, ate his meal,
Speaker 2: went home, shot solf of the head. So we're dealing
Speaker 2: with that, you know. So he's in business, but he's
Speaker 2: just blown away, you know. He goes, are you still
Speaker 2: did you ever? Mary Carey? Yeah? I did for two
Speaker 2: months and he he was laughing, and it's like, it's
Speaker 2: so amazing how you meet people you know or other
Speaker 2: people you know or are you know. It's such an
Speaker 2: eclectic group of people. And it's like any vacation place,
Speaker 2: whether it's the Outer Banks or get Cut or whatever. Okay,
Speaker 2: there's the haves and have nots, Okay, which makes it
Speaker 2: difficult for the have nots because the prices go up,
Speaker 2: you know. But they're cool too, because all these servers
Speaker 2: I love, you know, and because I understand I can't.
Speaker 2: I was a hustler, I get it, you know. But
Speaker 2: then there's really successful people, you know, and which you
Speaker 2: can learn from, you know. And so I have an
Speaker 2: office in downtown ketch them. That's the shelter of Rocky
Speaker 2: Mountain Office, and so it's it's fun.
Speaker 1: Okay, what'd your parents do for a living?
Speaker 2: I'm a I think we call it a corporate brat.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: My dad, at the age of eighteen, was installing phone
Speaker 2: lines in southern Illinois, no, no, outside of Chicago as
Speaker 2: a job. He came from German immigrant family, okay. And
Speaker 2: he won some award as a student in high school.
Speaker 2: Then he met the president, and then he was working
Speaker 2: for AT and T or Illinois Bell or whatever it
Speaker 2: was called there, and they said, this kid's great. So
Speaker 2: he went from installing phones to being executive vice president
Speaker 2: AT and T, and in doing so, we lived Seattle,
Speaker 2: we lived in New Jersey.
Speaker 1: Wait wait wait, executive vice president of AT and T
Speaker 1: the national corporation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, before the divestiture. Before you know, this is not
Speaker 2: a Celtone.
Speaker 1: There were a lot of steffs between installing fold lines
Speaker 1: becoming executive view you know.
Speaker 2: But went he worked for Illinois Bell, Pacific, Northwest Bell,
Speaker 2: going up the chain.
Speaker 1: So what's his skill, because it's very hard to do,
Speaker 1: ye know.
Speaker 2: His skill was he was very intelligent, but he was
Speaker 2: a people person, and they kept on putting him to
Speaker 2: more school at and t Okay. So he went to
Speaker 2: University of Illinois, he went to special school at Wharton,
Speaker 2: he went to Dartmouth for another part of his learning,
Speaker 2: and they just kept on grooming this guy. And in
Speaker 2: those days it was like that. It wasn't jumping companies.
Speaker 2: And so he only worked for one company and retired
Speaker 2: at sixty five his whole life. And so loyalty, you know,
Speaker 2: and that. And plus mom was just mom, and we
Speaker 2: had five kids, and she was able to move us
Speaker 2: every two years and she took care of us and
Speaker 2: it was wonderful. So I had a great background.
Speaker 1: So where are you in the hierarchy?
Speaker 2: I'm in the middle, and what are the other ones
Speaker 2: up to? Everyone's healthy and successful, you know. It's like
Speaker 2: my brother James, the oldest. He is an attorney Seattle
Speaker 2: real estate, Transactional real Estate. My brother Todd lives down
Speaker 2: here in Los Angeles and does events, produces events for
Speaker 2: like Nissan and stuff like that. But that's what he likes.
Speaker 2: It's his independent, doesn't have to work all the time
Speaker 2: and has done well. My sister lives outside of Anatchi, Washington,
Speaker 2: the wine business, okay. And my other sister, Erica lives
Speaker 2: on cape Cod, where we spent most of our summers.
Speaker 1: She has a house on Cape Cod. We're in gape Cod,
Speaker 1: h Brewster. Okay, let me ask you this. There are
Speaker 1: five kids in the family. Obviously, the older brother is
Speaker 1: an attorney who graduated from college. Did the others graduate
Speaker 1: in Podcasah, So you're the black sheep.
Speaker 2: I am the only one who didn't graduate.
Speaker 1: But are you, generally speaking, the black sheep in the family.
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Okay? Why the music business or entertay? Maybe it wasn't music,
Speaker 1: maybe it was entertainment. What was it at first?
Speaker 2: Well, for the two months or three months to college,
Speaker 2: I was going to be an URTV major radio television major. Okay.
Speaker 2: I was a high school DJ, you know. It was
Speaker 2: DJing in college for those three months. But I hated college.
Speaker 2: And I was a music freak, okay, and not because
Speaker 2: I knew so much about it, but in high school,
Speaker 2: every day after school we would find someone who had
Speaker 2: a car. I would go down to a record store,
Speaker 2: smoked up and thumb through the bins, you know, and
Speaker 2: then hopefully once a month you could afford to go
Speaker 2: to a shell and you'd stand in line at ten
Speaker 2: am when the gate would open and you'd buy your
Speaker 2: ticket then stand in line to the out door open.
Speaker 2: And we were vested in our artists. Back then, it
Speaker 2: was a totally different thing, and we didn't see our
Speaker 2: artists unless you saw him live or on the back
Speaker 2: of an LP, front of LP. Okay. So that excitement
Speaker 2: of seeing Jesse, Colin Yell or you know whoever, you know,
Speaker 2: it was just like Wow, that dude's cool, you know.
Speaker 2: And so he bought into the art. I really bought
Speaker 2: into it, and I loved music. So what happened was
Speaker 2: I was working at Ruth's Chris Steakhouse and my brother
Speaker 2: was down here and he opened up the Hollywood Reporters.
Speaker 2: He came to my house and I'm on the roof
Speaker 2: top of my place. I was living in Beverly Hills,
Speaker 2: and he said, dude, look at this, this is you.
Speaker 2: This is you. You got to do this. And it
Speaker 2: was a catlecall advertisement for the mail room at Glamory.
Speaker 2: So well, I'm getting married next week, just let's go
Speaker 2: do it. So I go over there do it. I
Speaker 2: was marrying carry Alice, whose father was herb Ellis, who
Speaker 2: was a great jazz guitarist herbalus So Jim Moury and
Speaker 2: Sandy both knew who Herb was and s yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: Mary carry Alice Herbs. Well you're hired, dude. Sure, And
Speaker 2: then I say to Jim. I go, Jim, there's one issue.
Speaker 2: He goes, what's the issue? I go, I can't stop
Speaker 2: for four weeks because I'm getting married. Then I'm going
Speaker 2: to Saint Barts in Saint Martin's. Well you still have
Speaker 2: the job for me. They looked at me, they said, too,
Speaker 2: if you got some balls, I go, all right, we'll
Speaker 2: hold the job for you. So I came back and
Speaker 2: started the job, and things just happened.
Speaker 1: Well, okay, you're working at Gallan Morey at the time.
Speaker 1: How many people are working there?
Speaker 2: I can count the offices cale pressman one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,
Speaker 2: eight nine to about about about fourteen, And what was
Speaker 2: your gig mail room? I would go buy every desk
Speaker 2: and collect the mail. Back then there was faxes, print
Speaker 2: the foxes or copy the foxes. And then I would
Speaker 2: get a call from Sandy's assistant saying, hey, you got
Speaker 2: to go down to Farah Fawcett's house and deliver the script.
Speaker 2: No way, dude, really sweet sweet or Streisand's house or yeah,
Speaker 2: there's a great there's a great story. And you know,
Speaker 2: I got a got hired for the wedding, but I
Speaker 2: really started in November, okay, and Dolly Parton to a
Speaker 2: Christmas party at Sandy's house all the time, okay, and
Speaker 2: they would import snow from the mountains all this, and
Speaker 2: so Sandy goes, hey, can you come to the party.
Speaker 2: I go, yeah, for sure, dude, I'm there. And some
Speaker 2: I probably was serving him a McDonald's hamburger, taking off
Speaker 2: the pickle, so something like that. Menial shit. Okay, So
Speaker 2: I dude, honey, I hadn't been divorce. Shit, honey, We're
Speaker 2: going to Dolly Parton's Christmas party. We go and the
Speaker 2: whole thing was no, he wanted me to work the
Speaker 2: party the front door, and it was so embarrassing to me.
Speaker 2: I was like, okay. But what happened was once everyone
Speaker 2: was in, I went to a round tablet ten by
Speaker 2: the pool and it was like quincy, all these people
Speaker 2: and I just pretended like I knew everyone wast hanging
Speaker 2: out with the like hey, how you doing. And so
Speaker 2: it's a great story because it was so humiliating, but
Speaker 2: I made the best of.
Speaker 1: It, exactly why did you break up with the first life.
Speaker 2: I went out with Dice on the road, and I
Speaker 2: came back and realized I got too married too early,
Speaker 2: and there's this whole new world opening up for me,
Speaker 2: and I don't think I can really focus on this
Speaker 2: when I've got this, and I really think I can
Speaker 2: do this, you know. So it was a selfish kind
Speaker 2: of move. But she didn't like the fact that I
Speaker 2: was getting into the music business because her dad was
Speaker 2: in the music business.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: She wanted me to be a restauranteur or whatever it is. Okay,
Speaker 2: So I think she was relieved and we parted great
Speaker 2: friends and she knows people in my world still, and.
Speaker 1: You know, it's all good. And I thought, okay, so
Speaker 1: you're in the mail room. It's well known that's getting
Speaker 1: your foot in the door. When do you actually do
Speaker 1: more than deliver mail? And within a month and you're
Speaker 1: doing what.
Speaker 2: Barry Josephson was still there, and he he did an assistant.
Speaker 2: So he put me at his desk as his assistant,
Speaker 2: which was a horrifying situation. A I couldn't type, okay,
Speaker 2: you know, so I'm taking messages, dialing the phones back
Speaker 2: in the old days, you know, rolling calls for him
Speaker 2: and uh, trying to deal with problems that I knew
Speaker 2: nothing about, Okay, because it happened to so quick, and
Speaker 2: so I was terrible. But what happened was all his
Speaker 2: clients loved me, so he had to deal with me, okay,
Speaker 2: and and he was a very hard boss, but they
Speaker 2: all were back then. You know, it was a different
Speaker 2: world where they could abuse you, like, here's your Christmas bonus,
Speaker 2: like one hundred and one dollar bills, Throw them on
Speaker 2: the floor and I'll pick it up and get out
Speaker 2: of you. That kind of attitude. Okay. There's that movie
Speaker 2: with Kevin Spacey and what's his name about a guy
Speaker 2: in the mail. Yeah, so that was really written by
Speaker 2: the guy who replaced me at that desk. Okay, who
Speaker 2: wrote that? So that was his experience. Okay, So it's
Speaker 2: like that. But then Barry leaves and there needed to
Speaker 2: be someone to help with his clients that stayed Dice, okay,
Speaker 2: and so bye bye. Three months in that could be
Speaker 2: off a month. Three months in, Dice pulls me out
Speaker 2: of that office, says here with me. Oh, this is
Speaker 2: gonna be fun. You know, it's a great I'm gonna
Speaker 2: learn every aspect of the business over a year. You know,
Speaker 2: I'll be involved in shooting Ford Fairley in the movie
Speaker 2: for twentieth Century Fox. We have an ABC deal we're
Speaker 2: going to get We're going out on tour. Dennis Arfa
Speaker 2: great agent, is his agent, so I'm going to be
Speaker 2: around him. Rick Rubin's going to produce the record. So
Speaker 2: I got all this experience in a short period of time.
Speaker 2: So I was fortunate.
Speaker 1: Okay, Dice had this unbelievable vertical ascension. Then he theoretically
Speaker 1: got being from him to then he was over. Then
Speaker 1: he came back, you know, on TV for a while.
Speaker 1: What is misunderstood or what were the missteps by Dice?
Speaker 2: When I started with Dice were Here's Comedy Store, okay.
Speaker 2: And then we did the Beacon Theater for New Year's
Speaker 2: Eve for HBO okay, and that kicked it in. And
Speaker 2: I was still an assistant for that HBO show. And
Speaker 2: then it was January after that, and his his stick
Speaker 2: was so unique and so raw and so offensive and
Speaker 2: politically incorrect. Before there was politically incorrect, But there was
Speaker 2: this change happening in the entertainment industry where it was
Speaker 2: becoming politically incorrect, especially because the people that were running
Speaker 2: the business, Sandy, Barry Diller, David Geffen, Okay, so he
Speaker 2: wouldn't stop himself from going farther and farther. And also
Speaker 2: what happened was we were doing what was it, the
Speaker 2: MTV thing or whatever, and Dick Clark was producing it,
Speaker 2: and I'm on the side of the stage. It goes,
Speaker 2: we're running short. We need you to stretch your material,
Speaker 2: and we had to clear the material with television because
Speaker 2: he couldn't curse, okay, and it flipped Dice out, not anger,
Speaker 2: just fear because he didn't know how to stretch. You know,
Speaker 2: a comedian works on the tight ten or tight twenty,
Speaker 2: whatever it is. So he had to ad lib and
Speaker 2: he went into protection mode and went into the dark
Speaker 2: stuff and cursing and you know, lighting Cerrante on stage
Speaker 2: or whatever it was, and sudden the Redstone is dialing
Speaker 2: in said get him off the stage. He's blackball bloomoom
Speaker 2: boom boom. And from that point on it just kept
Speaker 2: on crippling down, you know. But it was an amazing
Speaker 2: running had and I got there. I had a lot
Speaker 2: of fun with the guy. I mean, here's a guy
Speaker 2: that got really fortunate, stayed at it, believed in it,
Speaker 2: and once again McDonald's. You know. Theory is people knew
Speaker 2: what they were getting when they went to his show,
Speaker 2: and they loved it, you know, and he stayed to
Speaker 2: that and he was really good to me and his parents. Freddy,
Speaker 2: it was it was awesome to me, and you know,
Speaker 2: it was just such an amazing experience. And he was
Speaker 2: he was a good guy. He was basically a sober
Speaker 2: guy out of just not trying to be sober, but
Speaker 2: he wasn't partying and he didn't do anything, you know,
Speaker 2: and so it was great. You know, it was a
Speaker 2: great dealing with them. I had great footage of just
Speaker 2: us on a tour bus together or whatever. It just
Speaker 2: was a moment and it was fantastic. It failed because
Speaker 2: he was put in a situation that he couldn't handle
Speaker 2: and that was the beginning of the end. That night
Speaker 2: was the beginning of the end.
Speaker 1: So did with you and Dice? And what did you
Speaker 1: do next?
Speaker 2: Well, maybe it depends on who you ask. How how
Speaker 2: I look at it is is that I we found
Speaker 2: a comedian in Kansas City who did fairly well. Eddie Griffin,
Speaker 2: Fast Eddie a bunch of Joel Silver movies. Stand up.
Speaker 2: He's a great funny guy. Okay, we find Eddie while
Speaker 2: we're on the road, Eddie. I'm managing Eddie. Now, Okay,
Speaker 2: Eddie starts kind of happening. Dice is kind of you know,
Speaker 2: slowing down. And he didn't like the fact that I
Speaker 2: managed Eddie, and I said, well, fine, you know, love you, Dice.
Speaker 2: I'm ag Eddie. And that was, you know, before I
Speaker 2: got into music business. Really I was in the comedy world.
Speaker 2: So that happened. Then the Eddie thing didn't work out,
Speaker 2: even though like he lived in my office, you know,
Speaker 2: and he was just starving, you know, and I'd feed
Speaker 2: him and get his teeth work done or whatever, you know.
Speaker 2: And that didn't work out. And so I was looking
Speaker 2: for my next entertainment thing and it was a It
Speaker 2: was with a guy named Matt Robinson.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you know Matt.
Speaker 2: He was a DJ and we had he had clubs,
Speaker 2: portable clubs, you know, move around clubs, peace posse and
Speaker 2: all these things back in the early nineties. And he
Speaker 2: needed like a business partner kind of as he was unorganized.
Speaker 2: And so he and I were working and we had
Speaker 2: a club every Friday night on Pico at the Chicken Shack,
Speaker 2: I think it was called. And a lot of celebrities
Speaker 2: were coming to our club. We had great DJs and
Speaker 2: it was kind of dance hall, hip hop, reggae kind
Speaker 2: of club. It was cool back then. Chris Blackwell would
Speaker 2: come into the club. So Blackwell gave us our own
Speaker 2: record label, Peace Polsey Records, and there's an We signed Ikamause,
Speaker 2: who was a dance hall awesome guy, crazy dude. And
Speaker 2: I did that for like a year and a half,
Speaker 2: two years, but the label never worked and I was
Speaker 2: getting bored and restless, and that's kind of you know,
Speaker 2: around the time I met Mick and and I was
Speaker 2: working with some other another gal. We were partners as
Speaker 2: managers type of thing trying to make and she had
Speaker 2: Delight and I was doing some stuff for the Fix,
Speaker 2: and then it was Fleetwood and then it just kept
Speaker 2: on going, the Cult, House of Pain Everthelass, Boston White Take,
Speaker 2: you know, Tommy Zzy, It just kept on going.
Speaker 1: So how'd you get involved with the Sanctuary guys?
Speaker 2: Merk saw that I was making money, you know money,
Speaker 2: and I had very strong roster for a manager coming
Speaker 2: into that place, okay, and he knew I I had
Speaker 2: a big tour coming up with so he wanted to
Speaker 2: buy into that revenue. So he bought in and then
Speaker 2: made me co president with Peter Asher right down when
Speaker 2: he bought in, and then Merk I had to leave, okay,
Speaker 2: and they made me seeeo or champed to see you
Speaker 2: of Sanctuary and it was really.
Speaker 1: Wait wait, just to be clear, when you start, is
Speaker 1: already owned by Universal? No?
Speaker 2: No, I started when it was dealing.
Speaker 1: But it was already public when you were Yes, it
Speaker 1: was public.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: How long did you work there before it was sold
Speaker 1: to Universal?
Speaker 2: Five years?
Speaker 1: So tell us about Merk.
Speaker 2: Did you read his new Yeah? I did, Okay, Yeah,
Speaker 2: he and I are two totally two different people, Okay,
Speaker 2: as far as our philosophies, the way we operate, he said, dude,
Speaker 2: that will always find a way to land on his feet.
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily agree with how he ran Sanctuary, and
Speaker 2: I wanted to make sure if I ever did a
Speaker 2: company it was polar opposite of Sanctuary.
Speaker 1: Seriously, just to be clear, how was it run?
Speaker 2: He made deals based on the next six months year
Speaker 2: with managers. Okay, not how great that manager is and
Speaker 2: this isn't my opinion. He has done extremely well, so
Speaker 2: I could be totally off. But he was not ever
Speaker 2: worried about a year from now. It was really like
Speaker 2: I said that quarter or that half year, okay. And
Speaker 2: my philosophy, as I said earlier on, was long term,
Speaker 2: long term. We can sustain long term. So that and
Speaker 2: I questioned the other managers there, and I know a
Speaker 2: lot of them and I like them, but you know,
Speaker 2: it's like huh, and and we accounted to things differently, okay.
Speaker 2: And so when he moved on the board, brought me
Speaker 2: to London and asked me if i'd help them get
Speaker 2: it to a point where we could have someone buy
Speaker 2: it off the street. Okay, and I did. But murk
Speaker 2: Is is a unique person. I think he knows music.
Speaker 2: He's a music fan for sure.
Speaker 1: That's sure.
Speaker 2: He knows it, he cares about it. But there's other
Speaker 2: influences in the way he conducts his business. Okay, that's
Speaker 2: in his own head.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go back. What's different now that it's sold
Speaker 1: to Universal? What's different about working a Universal? Why do
Speaker 1: you have to get out?
Speaker 2: I don't think at that point Labels Lucian understood what
Speaker 2: I did, okay, and really understood the music business. I
Speaker 2: think they were more a business once again of the immediate.
Speaker 2: And I don't think Lucien ever understood why I would
Speaker 2: manage is Easy or Fleewood Mac No No, find me
Speaker 2: a Gaga, Find me a Gaga. Okay, forget the old mans,
Speaker 2: but the old mans are making me a lot every year,
Speaker 2: like more than looking for Gaga. That company won't sustain itself,
Speaker 2: and then I'm fired. I don't want to do that,
Speaker 2: you know. And it wasn't hard conversation. It was just
Speaker 2: a different philosophical way of doing things. So I wanted
Speaker 2: out and I got out thanks to help from Herring,
Speaker 2: you know. And I just kind of did my own
Speaker 2: thing with my bands that have been with me ever.
Speaker 2: You know, it's like until Heartwick, you know, just knocked
Speaker 2: on my door.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's jump to today. You're making a deal with
Speaker 1: the label. You know, we went through the old school.
Speaker 1: We went through twenty first century, three sixty deals. Now
Speaker 1: there's leverage because you might have a TikTok success. How
Speaker 1: have you found the deals changed? And what are the
Speaker 1: deals today?
Speaker 2: Deals are one don't come with the same advance okay,
Speaker 2: a lesser marketing commitment, okay, a lesser commitment to the
Speaker 2: individual the artist, and you're really hoping you throw something
Speaker 2: against the wall and it works, you know, but that
Speaker 2: doesn't change how we think. But that's what the label thinks. Okay.
Speaker 1: And you have to cough up any rights beyond just
Speaker 1: the raw recordings, and you can you get those back?
Speaker 1: Can you have re record? What are your deals like
Speaker 1: with all this deal.
Speaker 2: The deals now are more licensing deals for a term,
Speaker 2: a ten year term. Then everything reverts back to you. Okay,
Speaker 2: and the re record rights followed that term usually.
Speaker 1: Okay, let me go back a step. You talk about, well,
Speaker 1: I went to NBC. I'm doing this special. You're a
Speaker 1: guy who works in restaurants. You say you're a hustler.
Speaker 1: It's not like you grew up in the business and
Speaker 1: your you know, your father's friends came to the house,
Speaker 1: et cetera. No, how did you make these relationships and
Speaker 1: how did you make these deals? And how do you
Speaker 1: do it today?
Speaker 2: I learned quickly, okay. But how I was able to
Speaker 2: function in that world? You know? Early on, when I
Speaker 2: was in the restaurant business in La I would go
Speaker 2: to the right places, and I happened to meet certain
Speaker 2: people that were artists okay, that liked me and tagged
Speaker 2: me along, okay, And whether it was hanging out Roxbury
Speaker 2: if you remember Roxbury, you know, or whatever club, China Club,
Speaker 2: whatever you know, and I was always there with the
Speaker 2: right people. And they grew and I grew and a
Speaker 2: group and I I look at myself. This is a
Speaker 2: dis on myself. Okay. When I was a skier, my
Speaker 2: name was in Carl. I was called c W, which
Speaker 2: is my initials. My father called me that, my mother,
Speaker 2: every friend I still have back then calls me that.
Speaker 2: When I came to La, basically I changed to Carl,
Speaker 2: and I put on an act just to be able
Speaker 2: to fit in. But I learned that act by moving
Speaker 2: around with my father, parents and family. Because when you
Speaker 2: move from Seattle to Jersey, totally different. You're not You're
Speaker 2: not wearing swabies, You're wearing Levi's and ducksiders okay, new wardrobe,
Speaker 2: you know. So so I know I acted this role,
Speaker 2: that I knew what I was doing, and that that
Speaker 2: that I fit in with this culture, this world. And
Speaker 2: in doing so, you open your ears and you hear
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff, and you're willing to learn, and
Speaker 2: you never pretend like you know everything, but you do
Speaker 2: live in that world. And it just kind of worked
Speaker 2: that way.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's assume your brainstorming in the office, we're virtually however,
Speaker 1: you do it and you go, you know, we need
Speaker 1: a TV special on this, or we need a movie.
Speaker 1: You have the concept. Do you then work backward and say,
Speaker 1: you know, I know so and so. Who knows so
Speaker 1: and so will put me together? Where do you say? Oh,
Speaker 1: that's Netflix, that's Hulu, that's NBC, this is the person
Speaker 1: who runs it. Let me cold call them.
Speaker 2: Well, it can work like that, and it's also can
Speaker 2: work that. If it's today not when I was younger,
Speaker 2: it's different. So I'll call CI or William Morris and
Speaker 2: this is my idea, put together ten meetings for me.
Speaker 2: Then I'll go take the meetings. Okay. If it's you know,
Speaker 2: if it was like Rockstar Super and Ova with Mark
Speaker 2: Burnett at CBS produced, it came up with it with Mark.
Speaker 2: It was not just called Mark, you know, and talk
Speaker 2: to Mark about it, you know, because I'd met him
Speaker 2: or whatever it was. You know, it all depends, you know,
Speaker 2: where we're going with the project, what type of project
Speaker 2: it is, and where it fits with the NBC show
Speaker 2: it was. I hired a showrunner who handled them setting
Speaker 2: up the meetings, and I would show to the meetings
Speaker 2: because I knew how to sell what my view was,
Speaker 2: and that's how it was done. I would show up
Speaker 2: and I'd be there, and I'd come up and create it.
Speaker 2: You know, you know, wine or liquor spirits. I know
Speaker 2: people in that world, you know, So I'll make the call.
Speaker 2: It all depends on what. But yeah, let me help
Speaker 2: you get there. We'll get you there, you know. Okay,
Speaker 2: one way or another, I'll get you there.
Speaker 1: Live Business today there are two behemoths. Live Nation is
Speaker 1: very much in favor of making tour deals, being on
Speaker 1: the other side of the fence. What's your philosophy.
Speaker 2: I think it depends on the act, and I think
Speaker 2: it depends on the timing of when you're going out
Speaker 2: and also the history you have. So in other words,
Speaker 2: Live Nation has been very good to me with a
Speaker 2: lot of my acts, but not all my acts. Two deals, okay,
Speaker 2: one usually Fleevo Mac we deal right, but you know
Speaker 2: there's deals that we don't take money. We just want
Speaker 2: everything right. Everything, okay, and it works because you know,
Speaker 2: you sell tickets. Okay, then with as easy. There's some
Speaker 2: ag shows, there's some Like Nation shows, there's some independent shows,
Speaker 2: and I won't do a whole deal okay, crowded house,
Speaker 2: same thing, you know. And that's Neil's mind too. He
Speaker 2: doesn't want to just be owned by Live Nation. You know,
Speaker 2: we like Live Nation, but we're not on and we'll
Speaker 2: do this and that and that and this with these
Speaker 2: people and then the younger acts. We're not really making
Speaker 2: deals with one agency. I mean, I know those deals
Speaker 2: and I've seen them, and I see where they don't
Speaker 2: work for the artists. You know, there's a there's a
Speaker 2: big size band that did one, and those deals are
Speaker 2: different thought the FLEETODMAC deals. I mean it's like, okay,
Speaker 2: we get the next hundred shows or the same amount
Speaker 2: of time, and we'll figure out when they are, where
Speaker 2: they are. All that kind of shit. And it takes
Speaker 2: these bands years to recoup. But what happened was their
Speaker 2: business skyrocket. But you're living to that old guarantee. Not
Speaker 2: a good deal.
Speaker 1: You know. Since the insolidation and professionalization of the live business,
Speaker 1: how does that work to the advantage your disadvantages of
Speaker 1: the acts.
Speaker 2: M hmm. I think there's there's, like you said, there's
Speaker 2: advantages and disadvantage.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like but with you know, Ticketmaster all that kind
Speaker 2: of stuff, you know, and the way life nation is
Speaker 2: with that kind of thing, it's potentially taking money off
Speaker 2: the table for the band. It's really taking money away
Speaker 2: from the van, you know. And but then again it's
Speaker 2: how you structure those deals, you know. It's it's you
Speaker 2: need to can't do that, you can't do this, you know,
Speaker 2: and just negotiate it. But it's it's it's certainly also hurt.
Speaker 2: What I think is the marketing of of the tours
Speaker 2: of the bands. So you go up on sale, you
Speaker 2: have a breakout, and then it's gone, okay, So you
Speaker 2: shall generate all your revenue over a week period of time,
Speaker 2: and the show's not for six months. Nothing happens after that,
Speaker 2: even when you're going in market, unless you're stiffing, then
Speaker 2: they'll put a little more money into it. Where when
Speaker 2: Don Law or Golden Voice or whatever, back in the
Speaker 2: old days, they would be firing stickering and there was
Speaker 2: really a presence of that band coming, which helps record sales,
Speaker 2: which helps everything else that's not there anymore. It's like void.
Speaker 2: I go to a Fleetwood mac shown Chicago sold out
Speaker 2: three in a row. But if you didn't buy a ticket,
Speaker 2: you don't even know if they're there. Where before even
Speaker 2: if you didn't go, you would see it and there
Speaker 2: was present. Okay. So that's a lot of the problem
Speaker 2: of the monumentality of how it is. But it's radio
Speaker 2: is less important, so they don't win the radio. You know,
Speaker 2: the Internet that's of the moment. So is it a
Speaker 2: product of the way media has become or is it
Speaker 2: a product of way a major kind oft promoter saves money?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about it a Can you talk about Fleewood
Speaker 1: Max an instant sellout? Let's use zz top? Did you
Speaker 1: bring them up? Most of the gigs are non instant sellouts,
Speaker 1: So how do you ultimately fill the building?
Speaker 2: We? Yeah, with zz we have an insane database, okay,
Speaker 2: that we deal with. We don't give it to someone
Speaker 2: and we're active in the database with our fans and
Speaker 2: they're aware of it. We're not like blindsiding them, you know.
Speaker 2: And that's a band that can still organically sell out
Speaker 2: over time for some reason. Okay, are we doing that
Speaker 2: much different than the other band now, but it works.
Speaker 2: And Zzi is an interesting thing because here's a band
Speaker 2: that does under shows here every year for seventeen years.
Speaker 2: They've done it with me and they want it. It's
Speaker 2: not manager saying to it I pull back, pull back
Speaker 2: you no, no, no gigsters. You know, we're fucking gigsters.
Speaker 2: All right, let's do it. We got to be creative,
Speaker 2: we got to go into different markets.
Speaker 1: Whatever.
Speaker 2: But it's it almost becomes to a ZZ fan like
Speaker 2: an annual thing. Okay, it's annual, you know, and those
Speaker 2: fans are so loyal to that band, and yeah, and
Speaker 2: we still you know, when I took Zzy on, I
Speaker 2: didn't really understand z Easytop, not musically, I mean the
Speaker 2: business I didn't understand. So I went to Houston to
Speaker 2: the Houston Rodeo where they were playing in front of
Speaker 2: sixty five thousand people, and I decided just to walk
Speaker 2: the parking lot, you know, check out the vibe. And
Speaker 2: because I was so focused on the coasts, you know,
Speaker 2: and so I see a grandmother, daughter, husband, their kids,
Speaker 2: like five of them walking into the venue, all ages,
Speaker 2: and they're all got ZZ shirts, Zazy cooozies these the acts,
Speaker 2: thesey everything. I go, dude, these are loyal fans. This
Speaker 2: is a business that I have not been in and
Speaker 2: I want to be a part of it. And it's
Speaker 2: been successful. But before I got involved, the manager prior
Speaker 2: didn't want them doing television, didn't want them doing articles,
Speaker 2: didn't want them to be exposed at all, and hit
Speaker 2: them because he thought, well, and he was right back
Speaker 2: in the old days, it's a mystery. You don't give
Speaker 2: it all the way, you know whatever. But in the
Speaker 2: new world of post MTV and social media and all
Speaker 2: this stuff. So I did a documentary that did really
Speaker 2: well on Netflix with them. I got them on television,
Speaker 2: I got them doing you know, big event shows, you know.
Speaker 2: And so I took him out out of the fair
Speaker 2: business and brought them back into the hard ticket business
Speaker 2: that was Michael and I had some great agents that
Speaker 2: worked with me, that understood my vision, you know, and
Speaker 2: it worked out. And now you know, we're bigger in
Speaker 2: Europe than we are in the United States. And when
Speaker 2: I started with them, they hadn't been to Europe for
Speaker 2: ten years or something, you know, But we worked them
Speaker 2: in Europe and then they became Americana cheeky you know
Speaker 2: type thing over the real deal, the real deal. We
Speaker 2: went to Australia this year, sold everything out, everything. It
Speaker 2: was crazy doing eighteen bucks ahead and T shirts, all
Speaker 2: this stuff on fire, you know. So we built them
Speaker 2: in other markets and we made it an international act
Speaker 2: and I Chase. I spent a lot of time with
Speaker 2: Billy even about microphones you know or whatever, you know,
Speaker 2: and stage dressings and sets and all this kind of shit.
Speaker 2: And Billy's a really smart guy and a very very
Speaker 2: spot on you know, but he was He was great,
Speaker 2: you know, he listened, he talked, we'd riff and we
Speaker 2: became close, you know, like all my clients and I'll
Speaker 2: have ten bad ideas and if there's one good one
Speaker 2: in there, we're winning or we're winning.
Speaker 1: So okay, zz top one hundred dates a year actually
Speaker 1: don't represent sticks out every year, deaf leppards seemingly.
Speaker 2: Everything ARD's amazing.
Speaker 1: Okay. In the old days they say let it lie fallow, Hey,
Speaker 1: what's your philosophy on that? And b is this just
Speaker 1: going to go on forever?
Speaker 2: Well, I think that the general philosophy is take those breaks,
Speaker 2: you know, because it refuels the T shirt business the
Speaker 2: ticket business all that. Certain bands can get away with it.
Speaker 2: I don't think many bands can do what sticks does
Speaker 2: c Z. Cheap Trick another one of my bands, you know,
Speaker 2: Cheap Trick. We took on Cheap Trick just four months ago.
Speaker 2: I had them out with Easy. This band can be
Speaker 2: something still. This is an interesting band, you know, but
Speaker 2: it's kind of like they're working too much. They're going
Speaker 2: into the wrong rooms, all that kind of stuff. So
Speaker 2: I met the band, they decided to go with us,
Speaker 2: put two of my guys on it, and we're doing well.
Speaker 2: And it's the same idea as Easy. They you had
Speaker 2: to weed the garden. You know, it's a dirty garden.
Speaker 2: Let's make it a clean garden. You know. That's weed
Speaker 2: it to make it pretty, you know, And how do
Speaker 2: you do that will put them in the right place.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about a band like Jeep Trick, well
Speaker 1: known rock and roll Hall of Fame members. Is there
Speaker 1: any upside you're talking about Zezy Top business increased in Europe,
Speaker 1: but they haven't been there. Is it more about maintaining
Speaker 1: the business of these acts or is there anything that
Speaker 1: could make it grow.
Speaker 2: There's plenty of things that potent could make it grow.
Speaker 2: Maintaining is not what our goal is when we get involved,
Speaker 2: you know, because once again, I was never a big
Speaker 2: cheap trick fan, Okay, but I knew they could play.
Speaker 2: I think they still look good and they wrote some
Speaker 2: great fucking songs. Okay. So how do we expose them
Speaker 2: to different audience to not lose audience but gather more
Speaker 2: people that weren't ticket buyers, record buyers, whatever it is.
Speaker 2: How do we do that by putting them in places
Speaker 2: they haven't been or giving them looks they've never had.
Speaker 1: Just give me an example of both of those places
Speaker 1: they haven't been there.
Speaker 2: We'll go out and open up for a band that
Speaker 2: you haven't opened up for ten million times, okay, go
Speaker 2: out with fucking Rod Stewart okay, or get them on
Speaker 2: a late night television show, even though that doesn't move
Speaker 2: the needle of sales, Okay, it doesn't, but it does
Speaker 2: impact the image and the perception of that band. Okay.
Speaker 2: Do things like that, you know, do a real documentary
Speaker 2: about the band in Rufford, Illinois, you know, or whatever.
Speaker 2: It's like, it's it's educating people because I can play
Speaker 2: a cheap trick song surrender, Okay to my wife or
Speaker 2: to a friend and they, oh, I know that song,
Speaker 2: Well who does that song? I don't know. So it's
Speaker 2: educating people too on who wrote those songs and who's
Speaker 2: behind those songs. And that is through proper articles, documentaries,
Speaker 2: you know, educational pieces.
Speaker 1: And what's your philosophy on soft ticket sales soft ticket shows?
Speaker 2: Well, dependents if it's if it's sometimes they're needy because
Speaker 2: it's part of the routing. Okay ah to be a
Speaker 2: country act that only does soft tickets, which is not
Speaker 2: unique in that business. You know, I think it does
Speaker 2: nothing for the building of the growth of the band,
Speaker 2: the loyalty to the band, all those things. If I
Speaker 2: know I can see such and such act at a
Speaker 2: radio show every year, welly, I'm ever going to buy
Speaker 2: a ticket. So how does that band make money in touring?
Speaker 1: They don't.
Speaker 2: Plus they're there for twenty other bands, and so what's
Speaker 2: the point. You know, festivals that are heart ticket festivals,
Speaker 2: you know, like a bottle Rock or a Lolla plusa whatever.
Speaker 2: I think are great, but not too much of it.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I think when we played and Zeezi played Stagecoach or Creed.
Speaker 2: This last year played stage Coach, it was a fantastic
Speaker 2: moment because it was playing in front of people that
Speaker 2: never would have bought a ticket, and that brings even
Speaker 2: if you got half a percent of those people, that's
Speaker 2: growing business. Okay, and word of mouth. Boy, I saw
Speaker 2: a Creed. I was in the gym and Sun Valley
Speaker 2: and one of the gym rats comes up to me
Speaker 2: and says, here, you work with Creed? Go yeah, he goes, dude,
Speaker 2: I was at stagecoach. Greatest show I've ever seen in
Speaker 2: my life, never seen them before, you know, And it's like, wow, okay, sweet,
Speaker 2: you know, but that just that alone. They're talking.
Speaker 1: Let's just talk Creed for a second now. Scott Staff
Speaker 1: has a horrendous reputation. Yeah, and uh, Creed. A lot
Speaker 1: of people don't like, how do you rebuild Creed?
Speaker 2: Well, it's working, okay, because if you look at the
Speaker 2: tickets out, it's huge right now. Okay, it's huge. It's
Speaker 2: it's arenas, it's sheds, and it's bigger than it's been
Speaker 2: for a long time. How do you make them more
Speaker 2: acceptable to not their core? Well that's a challenge. Okay, Uh,
Speaker 2: but we kind of if you last Super Bowl, we
Speaker 2: had a commercial, you know, I can't even remember who
Speaker 2: it was for, but it was a commercial with a
Speaker 2: Creed song and the band briefly in it and all
Speaker 2: this kind of stuff. That was one impression. You know,
Speaker 2: they were down in Indianapolis five hundred performing with Tom Brady.
Speaker 2: That was all over the place all sudden. Okay, you're
Speaker 2: with somebody different, something new, and then people go to
Speaker 2: it and they're like, wow, this is pretty awesome.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: And once again, wasn't a big Creed fan. But I
Speaker 2: managed Scott a long time ago, okay, and he came
Speaker 2: back and asked me to be.
Speaker 1: About Okay, So what's the future of rock? All your
Speaker 1: big acts are rock acts. They certainly have little participation
Speaker 1: in the Spotify tough fifty. What's the state of rock
Speaker 1: and where's it going? Well?
Speaker 2: I think rock something changes and it changes every year. Okay,
Speaker 2: But if we looked at where's going to be in
Speaker 2: ten years from now a few point of today, where
Speaker 2: can it go? You know? Ai TikTok. All these different
Speaker 2: mediums and technologies will erase the organic band and rock
Speaker 2: was based on real bands, real writers and working hard
Speaker 2: to build a handbase, not of the moment. Okay, and
Speaker 2: rock Rock's hot now, but I don't know how it
Speaker 2: survives social media, okay, and long term I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: Okay. So finally, what is the future of the business.
Speaker 1: Some people in certain businesses they said, well, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to live that long and I'll just ride into
Speaker 1: the sunset and that's it. You're obviously not that guy,
Speaker 1: because you said you already have enough money. You know,
Speaker 1: you're not working for the money or the money's always nice.
Speaker 2: I like money.
Speaker 1: Everybody likes it's solid.
Speaker 2: I'm not that right.
Speaker 1: So where is the business going? What changes do you
Speaker 1: see and where is it going to end up?
Speaker 2: I don't know the answer to that, because you read
Speaker 2: Gibbons sent me this podcast guy and I can't think
Speaker 2: of his name. It was talking about music sucks now
Speaker 2: Rick Beatle, Yeah, did you see that thing?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And you start what the hell you know? Or that
Speaker 2: you know? And I watched that. It's just so scary,
Speaker 2: you know, and it's so anti what I think. And
Speaker 2: it's about art, you know, it's even if you the
Speaker 2: Bob Dylan movie okay, okay, whether you like it or not, Okay,
Speaker 2: the Bob Dyler movie. It showed a moment in music history. Okay,
Speaker 2: when it was pure, when they really cared and worked hard,
Speaker 2: and yeah they wanted success, they needed money, but it
Speaker 2: was like a community and it was fucking cool, you know.
Speaker 2: And if it's going farther and farther away from there,
Speaker 2: so if that continues that path, it will be artists
Speaker 2: that aren't real artists or music that lives for five
Speaker 2: minutes and gone, and there won't be the Bob Dylan's,
Speaker 2: the Fluid Max, the Zzy Tops whatever, you know, they
Speaker 2: won't be able to come back. It's not geared that
Speaker 2: way anymore. It's not so eventually what happens then, well
Speaker 2: it's all synthetic shit, you know, And so who are
Speaker 2: the artists? Who cares for the artists? I just like
Speaker 2: to listen to the song. Listen, you listen to your
Speaker 2: favorite band from the seventies, it brings a memory, you know.
Speaker 2: These songs are not memorable. These songs are not a memory.
Speaker 2: Watermelon Sugar and I love Harry Styles great, I like them,
Speaker 2: But is that going to ten years from now, twenty
Speaker 2: years in somebody's life be a memory, you know, like
Speaker 2: like a Zeppelin song and Pink Floyd the Wall or whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but the record we sat down I had my friends
Speaker 2: come over, we played it. I shared the record with them.
Speaker 2: You know, that whole community, it's not there anymore, and
Speaker 2: without community long term is scary.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're going to do it till you drop.
Speaker 2: You ever gonna rend? No, Well, at some of them probably,
Speaker 2: you know, at some level. Although watched tomorrow announce that
Speaker 2: I'm retiring and I'm going to some valley and I'm
Speaker 2: working on a pick a ball game and skiing every day.
Speaker 2: How about that? But I got fifty days in this.
Speaker 1: Year, so I got one hundred and two. Where three
Speaker 1: of them in Aspen, the rest in Veil. But that's
Speaker 1: a separate conversational. That's a separate conversation. But you're obviously
Speaker 1: building an asset. Yeah, yeah, so at some point you
Speaker 1: want to sell it. Yeah, at some point, could be soon.
Speaker 1: Uh well, let's just assume. Just assume it is soon.
Speaker 1: A lot of people I know are in your boat
Speaker 1: whose money is not the primary driver. They don't want
Speaker 1: to be on the outside. They don't want to miss
Speaker 1: the action. Could you literally say, Okay, I'm done and
Speaker 1: I'm living in Sun Valley, I got a young kid.
Speaker 1: Everything's groovy and I'm happy. Are you going to say, shit,
Speaker 1: you know, the email's not coming in. I'm not on
Speaker 1: a plane.
Speaker 2: This is weird, No, I take I think I'm a
Speaker 2: little different than that, you know, I think c W.
Speaker 2: It's this shoulder, carls that shoulder. C W's still there.
Speaker 2: S kee bum, okay, skey bum. I'm acting Carl every day. Well,
Speaker 2: maybe that act is over. I go back to CW.
Speaker 2: And by the way, I own pieces of restaurants, I
Speaker 2: own a musical, I own this. I'll keep those things,
Speaker 2: you know. But if I if I was to sell
Speaker 2: the company, I'd have to stay with the company because
Speaker 2: the company's predicated on me as the driver. It's a
Speaker 2: service business, so it's not an asset, so you have
Speaker 2: to stay for a while.
Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily forever.
Speaker 2: But then it becomes like an emeritis chairman or whatever
Speaker 2: it is, you know, and you're still involved, you know,
Speaker 2: and your kid's going to be successful in it, Jackson
Speaker 2: is going to be you know, and you're advising that
Speaker 2: there's plenty of action in my life not to have
Speaker 2: to be day to day okay involved. However, for the
Speaker 2: next probably three to five years, I'm definitely day today.
Speaker 2: You know, there's no outing because I'm not prepared to
Speaker 2: let even if I don't. If I weren't selling, weren't
Speaker 2: going to sell it, and I'm not saying I'm selling
Speaker 2: right now. But if the plan was for always, then
Speaker 2: I got to still build it bigger so it survives
Speaker 2: better chance of survival. So I'm committed to that.
Speaker 1: And on that note, I think we've come to the
Speaker 1: end of the feeling we've known. Carl, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for spending this time with my audience and going through
Speaker 1: the history and philosophy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's my pleasure, you know. I just hope I
Speaker 2: didn't say too many times. He's got that right on.
Speaker 1: I don't think so. Until next time. This is Bob
Speaker 1: left Sex
Speaker 2: Sh