Speaker 1: You place your left hand on the Bible and raise
Speaker 1: your right hand and repeat after me. I you solemnly
Speaker 1: swear who the jury buying it defended not to Your
Speaker 1: process continued this weekend in Ferguson and around the country,
Speaker 1: resisting your sense. If it doesn't fit, you must to quit. Judge,
Speaker 1: you are the last line of reason in this case.
Speaker 1: Every one of us took out all the offs, and
Speaker 1: we're sworn to uphold the Constitution. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta,
Speaker 1: this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. On this
Speaker 1: episode of Closing Statements, Phil talks to one of Debora
Speaker 1: Wideman's family members who reached out to him after the
Speaker 1: first three episodes were released. But first we'll hear Jason
Speaker 1: Walker's perspective to recap, Jason Walker was the alleged father
Speaker 1: of Melissa's baby, someone who seemed to have a potential
Speaker 1: motive at the time. He agreed to talk to us
Speaker 1: about his experience, but he didn't want his voice to
Speaker 1: be used. I'll be reading the questions that we asked
Speaker 1: Jason and Phil with voices responses. What was your life
Speaker 1: like in Turner County in two thousand two, where did
Speaker 1: you live. What was your job? I lived in the
Speaker 1: northern part of the county, working on a decent sized
Speaker 1: farm in South Crisp County. I enjoyed the work and
Speaker 1: who I worked for, no complaints. What was your relationship
Speaker 1: with Melissa Like? Someone mentioned to us that you may
Speaker 1: have been married at the time you were seeing Melissa.
Speaker 1: Is that right? Or were you exclusively with Melissa at
Speaker 1: the time. I was not married at the time of
Speaker 1: the incident. It's no secret that our relationships started when
Speaker 1: I was married. We continued after I divorced. I'll not
Speaker 1: dispute that there were ups and downs. It's no secret
Speaker 1: you probably know that. What was your relationship with t
Speaker 1: J and Deborah Like? Our parents treated me very well,
Speaker 1: even at times when maybe they shouldn't have. They welcomed
Speaker 1: me in their home and never made me feel like
Speaker 1: they didn't want me there. We even went on an
Speaker 1: out of town trip or two. What was your alibi
Speaker 1: that night? We heard from a credible source that your
Speaker 1: car hood was cold that morning and that you couldn't
Speaker 1: have left your house in that car. Could you tell
Speaker 1: us the same alibi you told the police. If my
Speaker 1: old age memory serves me right, We had gone to
Speaker 1: Cordial Walmart for some things, and then stopped to see
Speaker 1: a couple of guys at the GSP post when it
Speaker 1: was still on Midway Road. Then when I went home,
Speaker 1: I was home until I was notified of the fire.
Speaker 1: When I was notified, I rode with someone to the house.
Speaker 1: Did you feel like you're the only person of interest
Speaker 1: in that case or that there was too much focus
Speaker 1: on you? How did the investigation impact your personal life
Speaker 1: with internal County? What about your professional life? I don't
Speaker 1: think I was the only suspect, of course, in the situation.
Speaker 1: I was the first one that came to their minds.
Speaker 1: The second part of that question I can't really answer
Speaker 1: because I don't know how much anyone else was question
Speaker 1: third part, you know things like this, Well, I've easily
Speaker 1: make people wonder. I've maintained my innocence the whole time
Speaker 1: and still do very very few ever treated me different.
Speaker 1: What do you think could have been done differently in
Speaker 1: the investigation process in order to find the person or
Speaker 1: people that did this and, as you said, bring relief
Speaker 1: to those of you who were wrongly accused. I can't
Speaker 1: really answer this because I only know what they did
Speaker 1: when they questioned me. I allowed a search of my
Speaker 1: home and my car without them having a warrant. I
Speaker 1: had no reason to interfere or make it hard on them.
Speaker 1: I know Slash News several of the guys that were
Speaker 1: on the case at the time. They were doing their job,
Speaker 1: and we remain good friends today. Again, though, I can
Speaker 1: only answer about how I was questioned, not anyone else.
Speaker 1: Who else do you think was wrongly accused along with you?
Speaker 1: I can only speak for me. I know I was
Speaker 1: wrongly accused, and I really don't know who was questioned
Speaker 1: or in what manner. Do you think there are still
Speaker 1: people in Turner County that think you had something to
Speaker 1: do with the incident until it's solved. I'm sure there are,
Speaker 1: but I don't think I'm the only one people suspect.
Speaker 1: But can't speak for anyone else either. I guess the
Speaker 1: media could only report on what they were told by
Speaker 1: law enforcement. I don't think they tried to push an opinion,
Speaker 1: only what they were given. How do you think the
Speaker 1: media handled the case? I guess the media could only
Speaker 1: report on what they were told by law enforcement. I
Speaker 1: don't think they tried to push an opinion, only told
Speaker 1: what they were given. Finally, Jason says, I hope that
Speaker 1: helps you. I hope what you're doing finds the missing
Speaker 1: piece or that one person that knows what happened. We
Speaker 1: both know that someone knows what happened, and it's long
Speaker 1: overdue that the truth be told. Thanks for reaching out
Speaker 1: to me, and I hope what I've told you helped.
Speaker 1: Good luck with getting others to reply back to you.
Speaker 1: David Er, one of Deborah's younger brothers, reached out to
Speaker 1: Phil after the first three episodes aired. He wanted to
Speaker 1: talk to us. He said he had something to share,
Speaker 1: so Phil called him back. David, can you please tell
Speaker 1: us what your name is and how you're connected to
Speaker 1: this case. I am David Wheeler. I am the younger
Speaker 1: brother of Deborah Wideman. Devor and Tom and Joe and
Speaker 1: Melissa were part of my family. Where do you live?
Speaker 1: I live in Sycamore, Georgia, about a mile or two
Speaker 1: from the Kiff County line and about five miles from
Speaker 1: from Ashman, Georgian, about twelve miles from Rebecca, where they lived.
Speaker 1: I wanted to take a few minutes to talk about
Speaker 1: your sister and her family, the people that lost their lives,
Speaker 1: What can you tell us about them? They were very friendly,
Speaker 1: very social. Everybody in the community knew them. Everybody in
Speaker 1: the county. Between Devera and Tom and Joe, they were
Speaker 1: liked by every one. I don't know anybody that didn't
Speaker 1: like them. Tomma Joe was a very friend, happy going,
Speaker 1: easy going person. Devil was also they loved people. They
Speaker 1: loved to be around people, and they love to have
Speaker 1: a good time. What about your niece, Can you tell
Speaker 1: us something about her? I think she was also one
Speaker 1: that was very friendlish, She enjoyed her friends. She was
Speaker 1: expecting with her first child. She was about a month
Speaker 1: or six weeks away from from the living her child.
Speaker 1: She was very friendly, had lots of friends in the community.
Speaker 1: Even don't know if anyone that disliked her. She was
Speaker 1: very happy, very joyful. Do we know who the father
Speaker 1: of her unborn child was? It was suspected that it
Speaker 1: was a Walker, Jason Walker. To my knowledge that too
Speaker 1: the dad was. Is that what she believed as well? Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I know this may be difficult, but if you can,
Speaker 1: can you kind of walk us through how you found
Speaker 1: out about the fire and ultimately the murders. It was
Speaker 1: a Thursday afternoon. That Thursday afternoon, I actually had a
Speaker 1: phone call from my sister Debor. I was outside and
Speaker 1: one of the my daughter I believe, brought me the
Speaker 1: house phone. She had called to ask if we would
Speaker 1: be coming to Easter. I believe Easter was the not
Speaker 1: that weekend, but the following weekend, and they wanted to
Speaker 1: have a get together at at their house, and they
Speaker 1: were staying at Toma Joe's mother's home. And so around
Speaker 1: six o'clock she get called and we talked and had
Speaker 1: a great conversation, talked about twenty minutes, and we told
Speaker 1: her Or I told her that we would become for Easter.
Speaker 1: And then about tween two and three o'clock that morning,
Speaker 1: Friday morning, I got a phone call from elderly friend
Speaker 1: that lived in Rebecca, and she called the house and
Speaker 1: said that Devon Toma Joe's the house was on fire.
Speaker 1: It was Tom Joe's mother's house. Said the house was
Speaker 1: on fire, but they could not find Devor and Toma
Speaker 1: joinning where nobody could reach them. They tried calling and
Speaker 1: and nobody could reach them or nobody knew where they was,
Speaker 1: and she hung up. I called my sister and told
Speaker 1: her that the house was on fire and that nobody
Speaker 1: could get ahold of Damner coming Joe. And the first
Speaker 1: thing to come in my mind was that maybe Melissa
Speaker 1: had went into labor, maybe they had to take her
Speaker 1: to the hospital, And so I told her she would
Speaker 1: call the hospital and call our brother who lived in
Speaker 1: Irbville at the time. Then I was going to call
Speaker 1: my father in law. We had three small children that
Speaker 1: were nine, eleven, and fifteen at that time, and so
Speaker 1: we called him and asked him if he could come
Speaker 1: over to the house because we was going to drive
Speaker 1: to Rebecca and see if we could find out what
Speaker 1: was going on, or see if we could find Devin,
Speaker 1: Tom and Joe. My sister called back and said that
Speaker 1: she had called the closest hospitals, the two or three
Speaker 1: hospitals around, and they did not have a Melissa there,
Speaker 1: did not have her. They're delivering or no when was
Speaker 1: there by that name. So we drove to the house.
Speaker 1: Their houses up on isolated drive on a country highway.
Speaker 1: But when we got there there was a deputy sheriff
Speaker 1: at the end of the driveway. What time did you
Speaker 1: get to the side of the fire, I would say
Speaker 1: around four thirty. It's far enough off the roads. I
Speaker 1: couldn't tell. Knew there were a lot of fire trucks
Speaker 1: up there and appear to boost a lot of the
Speaker 1: police cars. But the devity's sheriff would not allow us
Speaker 1: to go up into the drive. He would not allow
Speaker 1: us to go up to the house. I asked him,
Speaker 1: I told him who I was, told him it was
Speaker 1: my sister's house and we were trying to find out
Speaker 1: where they were. But he would not allow us to
Speaker 1: go up into the drive. So when we left there,
Speaker 1: we went to Charles Henry's house, that was Toma Joe's brother,
Speaker 1: and we went to Charles Henry's house. He was there.
Speaker 1: We he met us at the door, and we went
Speaker 1: in and I was talking to him and just asking
Speaker 1: him to even know anything, And at that time he
Speaker 1: told us he didn't know anything. He didn't know where
Speaker 1: they were, he didn't know anything about He did tell
Speaker 1: us that he had been to the house. So wait
Speaker 1: a minute, they let him in the house or to
Speaker 1: the scene, but they wouldn't let you apparently, So he
Speaker 1: told us that he had been there and then he
Speaker 1: had left, but they would not allow us to go
Speaker 1: up into the house. Did he say if he went
Speaker 1: there with anyone else? He did not. He didn't say
Speaker 1: if he was by himself or him one took him,
Speaker 1: or if anybody went with him. He didn't. He did
Speaker 1: not imply that anyone had went with him at that time.
Speaker 1: He did tell us that his son was there at
Speaker 1: the house where we were now at his house, he
Speaker 1: was in the bedroom of sleep, but he didn't tell
Speaker 1: us whether he didn't say he was at the house
Speaker 1: with him. What time of day was it that you
Speaker 1: were at Charles's house? We were probably back at charles
Speaker 1: is between four thirty and five. How long did you
Speaker 1: stay there? We stayed there till after lunch the following day,
Speaker 1: all right, at lunch, that was a Friday. We stayed
Speaker 1: there toil long was lunch. We were there about twenty
Speaker 1: minutes maybe, and my brother Larry Weather, he and his
Speaker 1: wife they showed up at Charles's Charles Henrys, and then
Speaker 1: maybe another thirty minutes, and my sister showed up there.
Speaker 1: And by that time it's probably around five thirty quarter
Speaker 1: to six in the morning. And by that time there
Speaker 1: were people in the community who had heard about the
Speaker 1: house fire that were beginning to show up at the house.
Speaker 1: So by six o'clock the house was pretty well full
Speaker 1: of people in the community. You mentioned that Charles Son
Speaker 1: was sleeping. Did you ever see him come out? I
Speaker 1: did not see him until probably ten o'clock the next morning.
Speaker 1: Had you been there NonStop that whole time? I had
Speaker 1: been in the house from around four thirty and five.
Speaker 1: We've been there from four thirty until tween eleven and twelve.
Speaker 1: We left and came back to our house between eleven
Speaker 1: and twelve p m. Am. Well eleven made him Friday morning.
Speaker 1: We were there from five am, probably four thirty am
Speaker 1: till eleven or twelve a m. And the only person
Speaker 1: you were talking with was Charles correct. He was only
Speaker 1: one that came out and talked to me and my brother.
Speaker 1: And then probably around eight o'clock the corner Edgar Perry
Speaker 1: came over to the house and told us that the
Speaker 1: bodies were in the house and that there was foul play.
Speaker 1: He did not tell us what had happened, but he
Speaker 1: said there was foul play and this was a criminal
Speaker 1: investigation at this time. What was your reaction and what
Speaker 1: was everyone else's reaction? Well, everyone was shocked and surprised,
Speaker 1: you know, you couldn't believe that something like this had
Speaker 1: happened to them, just going through your mind, how could
Speaker 1: this have happened? Who could have done this? There was
Speaker 1: nobody that disliked them. The house is far enough off
Speaker 1: the road. Within a day or two, there was all
Speaker 1: kinds of theories and all kind of Everybody had their
Speaker 1: different opinions and ideas about who did it or what happened.
Speaker 1: So who was present when the coroner came to deliver
Speaker 1: that news to you, Charles Henry, myself and my wife,
Speaker 1: and Charles Henry's I don't believe the son was there
Speaker 1: at that time where out when he talked to us,
Speaker 1: But there was my sister and my brother and his wife,
Speaker 1: and then there was a large number of people from
Speaker 1: the community. There was probably twenty or thirty people from
Speaker 1: the community were there also, and he he just kind
Speaker 1: of took us to the side in the room. But
Speaker 1: there were some other people standing around. I couldn't call
Speaker 1: their names. Where there were some other people standing around
Speaker 1: when he he told us that there was foul play.
Speaker 1: Was there anything that you felt was unusual about the
Speaker 1: time that you spent at Charles's house that morning? I
Speaker 1: don't know it was just kind of quiet. I don't
Speaker 1: really know. I'd have to think on that question for
Speaker 1: a moment. Well, let me ask you another question. Did
Speaker 1: you ever wonder why Charles was allowed to go to
Speaker 1: the side of the fire but you weren't. Well, I
Speaker 1: did question, Dad. I didn't want to know why we
Speaker 1: couldn't go up there since it was our our sister,
Speaker 1: and you know, I'm wondering why they wouldn't allow us
Speaker 1: to go up there and find out. I know it
Speaker 1: was his, his property or his family's property, but I
Speaker 1: did question, you know, one couldn't we go up there,
Speaker 1: or at least way up there until they found out something.
Speaker 1: Why was your sister and her family staying at that
Speaker 1: house at that time? They often did that. Toma Joe's
Speaker 1: mother and Miss Joe. She lived in Frontadina and I
Speaker 1: think I don't know, but I'm pretty sure she had
Speaker 1: some valuable items in the house. I know she probably
Speaker 1: had her husband or Toma Joe's daddy, Mr. Widman, I
Speaker 1: believe at one time. I know one time he had
Speaker 1: a lot of guns, a lot of collectible guns, and
Speaker 1: she wanted them to stay there for to secure her home.
Speaker 1: She had some valuable items there and to help up
Speaker 1: keep the home and to show that, you know, somebody
Speaker 1: was in and out of the house. So they quite
Speaker 1: frequently would go up there and stay. They might stay
Speaker 1: up there the weekend, or stay up there three or
Speaker 1: four days out a week, or sometimes two or three
Speaker 1: weeks out of time, and then go back to their
Speaker 1: house in Rebecca, a couple of miles away. But they
Speaker 1: stayed because for security reasons for her home. So Miss Joe,
Speaker 1: was she a full time resident at Fernandina Beach or
Speaker 1: did she split her time and how did that work?
Speaker 1: She spent the majority of her time in front of
Speaker 1: Dama Beach. I believe for reasons how well she stayed
Speaker 1: down there because of the sea air or whatever, or
Speaker 1: she had asthma or I don't you know. I don't
Speaker 1: know exactly, but it was some health reasons was one
Speaker 1: of the reasons she stayed down in front of Dena.
Speaker 1: Do you know where she was the night of the fire.
Speaker 1: I had thought that she was at her home in
Speaker 1: front of Dena. Now later it come out that she
Speaker 1: may have been in the hospital, But as she was,
Speaker 1: I thought it would have been down there from Dana somewhere.
Speaker 1: Then I did see a news report that said it
Speaker 1: actually quoted Charles Wideman as saying that she was in
Speaker 1: the hospital the night of the fire. That's possible. I
Speaker 1: haven't heard anything to verify that, but that's possible. I
Speaker 1: know she was very sickly. I know she she passed
Speaker 1: away within the week or ten days of Tom and
Speaker 1: Joe and Devorah Melissa's death. She passed away, So she
Speaker 1: died within a week or ten days of your sister
Speaker 1: and her family's murder. That's correct, And she believed that
Speaker 1: they did not tell her because of her help. They
Speaker 1: didn't tell her until after the funeral latter was all over. Wait,
Speaker 1: they didn't tell miss Joe that her family had been murdered.
Speaker 1: I think that's correct. I think that's what I had heard,
Speaker 1: that they did not tell her until it was after
Speaker 1: the funeral. If she was told then, but I believe
Speaker 1: it was after the funeral when she was told. Now
Speaker 1: I've come to learn that later there was some litigation
Speaker 1: between the estate of your sister and the estate of
Speaker 1: miss Joe. Is that correct. I'm not as familiar with that.
Speaker 1: My brother's more familiar with that part of it. I
Speaker 1: would hesitate to answer on that because I'm I don't
Speaker 1: know enough to give a correct answer. Okay, can you
Speaker 1: tell us about Ms Joe's financial circumstances. Was she well offered?
Speaker 1: Was she a person of modest means? I don't know
Speaker 1: her exact figure, but she would I wouldn't probably consider
Speaker 1: well if she was a landowner, and she probably had
Speaker 1: stalking things. But I know she had two or three
Speaker 1: farms in the county, in the house in front of
Speaker 1: Dana or some property in front of DNA, so I
Speaker 1: would you know, I would consider that more than honest.
Speaker 1: I don't know an exact figure, but I would think
Speaker 1: it's more than modest. When was the last time your
Speaker 1: brother in law saw his mother. I believe him and
Speaker 1: Charles Henry had went down and visited her within a
Speaker 1: month before the murders. I don't know an exact date,
Speaker 1: but him and Charles Henry had been down there to
Speaker 1: see her. You know, I can't, like I said, I
Speaker 1: can't say an exact date, but within weeks or a
Speaker 1: month or less from the murders happening. I think he
Speaker 1: told me earlier today when we talked, that some people
Speaker 1: went to visit her. It just within a day or
Speaker 1: two of the murders. Who was that. I believe Charles
Speaker 1: Henry's wife and his daughter in law they were there
Speaker 1: the day of the murder, and maybe he had went
Speaker 1: the day before. I don't know when they left to
Speaker 1: go down there, but they were not at the house.
Speaker 1: And when you know, we did ask where it was Diane,
Speaker 1: his wife, and he said they were down in Fernandina
Speaker 1: on the night of the murders. Do you know if
Speaker 1: anyone was visiting Ms. Joe? To my knowledge, Diane and
Speaker 1: his son's wife were visiting her or had left to
Speaker 1: go down there. I don't know when they left, but
Speaker 1: he said they were going to Fernandina, So I don't
Speaker 1: know when they left to go, but they were going
Speaker 1: to Frontandana to see Ms. Joe. So on the night
Speaker 1: of the murders, Charles Widenman and his son were in Rebecca,
Speaker 1: but the rest of the family was in Fernandina. Is
Speaker 1: that correct? Correct? That's what I was told. That's what
Speaker 1: Charles Henry had said, that they were gone down there.
Speaker 1: He didn't say when they left, but the night in
Speaker 1: the murders, he and his son were the only ones
Speaker 1: in town or at home. How about your sister and
Speaker 1: her family had anyone else gone to visit Ms Joe.
Speaker 1: I couldn't say. I know Tom and Joe and Deva
Speaker 1: would frequently go down and visit with her and check
Speaker 1: on her. They would check on her when she would
Speaker 1: come home. But now I can't say for certain who
Speaker 1: else went down there to see her, or how often?
Speaker 1: Can you tell me the story that we talked about
Speaker 1: earlier today about somebody going and seeing her just before
Speaker 1: the murders and coming back with some jewelry. I was
Speaker 1: told I thought that Tom and Joe had and when
Speaker 1: Charles went down there, that she had given Tom and
Speaker 1: Joe's some jewelry or something. I don't know how much
Speaker 1: or one kind would she had given him some and
Speaker 1: had brought it back home. Do you want to talk
Speaker 1: about the relationship now between your side of the family
Speaker 1: and the Wideman's. Is that something you're comfortable talking about?
Speaker 1: Not really? You know, I see them and I speak
Speaker 1: with them, and they speak when me. We was at
Speaker 1: a I was at a meeting just recently, and and
Speaker 1: they were president at the meeting. You know, we we
Speaker 1: speak to one another and we've occasionally run into one
Speaker 1: another in town. Does anybody ever talk to you about
Speaker 1: the murders. People come up from time to time and
Speaker 1: they'll ask me or they'll talk to me and they'll
Speaker 1: give me their opinion, they'll give me their suspicions. I
Speaker 1: have very seldom bring it up from very seldom talk
Speaker 1: about it. Our our daughter initiated the conversation. But it
Speaker 1: doesn't offend me or bother me. When someone comes up
Speaker 1: and they want to talk or they want to ask her,
Speaker 1: you know, they want to express their concern. Most time,
Speaker 1: when the sheriff comes up and publicizes their murders again
Speaker 1: or speaks on the in the newspaper, or speaks on
Speaker 1: the local television station in al Any, you know, to
Speaker 1: generate some conversations and people come up and they'll talk
Speaker 1: with their ask her that you know, they're sorry about
Speaker 1: what happened and all it did affect my family. I
Speaker 1: don't bring it up and talk about it much because
Speaker 1: I had a nine year old son and eleven year
Speaker 1: old daughter and a fifteen year old daughter, and we
Speaker 1: didn't talk about it a whole lot because of my
Speaker 1: nine year old and eleven year old. For over a year.
Speaker 1: We had just built a house and we had just
Speaker 1: moved in it. We've been here about a year and
Speaker 1: for about a year a year and a half, my
Speaker 1: two youngest children slept on the floor by the bed
Speaker 1: between in the wall and they slept there for a
Speaker 1: year and a half as they were afraid, and even
Speaker 1: now talking to you and bring it up, it kind
Speaker 1: of my wife gets a little nervous, a little scared
Speaker 1: when it's brought back up. I didn't bring it up
Speaker 1: and didn't talk about it and much around them. Because
Speaker 1: of that, my son probably took four or five years
Speaker 1: before he would go outside by himself. If we was inside,
Speaker 1: he had to be inside. If we were outside, he
Speaker 1: had to be outside. Now they were scared, as as
Speaker 1: young as they were, they were scared something might happen
Speaker 1: to us or you know, they thought, could this happen
Speaker 1: to one of us because somebody come to our house
Speaker 1: and due to us what happened to my sister. So
Speaker 1: when they were president around, we tried not to talk
Speaker 1: about it very much, as it took a while for
Speaker 1: them to be able to go oude on their own.
Speaker 1: If the door opening my son heard it, he would
Speaker 1: run outside to see where we was going to where
Speaker 1: I was going. It would really bother him. If I
Speaker 1: went to town and my wife Vicky, she stayed at home.
Speaker 1: He would be a nervous wreck until we would all
Speaker 1: be together. He wanted everybody together. He didn't like us
Speaker 1: to be separated, so it took its toll on our family.
Speaker 1: That's something like this could happen in a small community
Speaker 1: like this. Were you ever interviewed by law enforcement? Yes?
Speaker 1: And no. The g b I the next day. This
Speaker 1: happened probably Friday afternoon, after lunch, two or three or
Speaker 1: four o'clock in the afternoon, if you could call it that.
Speaker 1: The g b I. He did come by. He asked
Speaker 1: me to step outside. I stepped out side. We went
Speaker 1: and set in his car. He maybe talked to me
Speaker 1: for ten minutes. You know, at the time, you don't
Speaker 1: think about what he's doing, but I guess he was
Speaker 1: asking some questions to see make sure that I had
Speaker 1: an alibi navy. He asked me where was I had
Speaker 1: or what was I doing? And I told him that
Speaker 1: I had talked to Delver at six o'clock that afternoon,
Speaker 1: and then I told him about the phone call in
Speaker 1: the middle of the night, and that my wife and
Speaker 1: I we went to Rebecca and then we was at
Speaker 1: Charles Henry's house, and that was all the questions he
Speaker 1: asked me. He never talked to my wife, he never
Speaker 1: talked to my kids. He never talked to anybody else
Speaker 1: to verify my story. So the g B I never
Speaker 1: verified your alibi. They never talked to any other other
Speaker 1: my my wife, or my children. They never talked to
Speaker 1: them too, you know, never talked to her to say
Speaker 1: was this what happened? He never come back and talked
Speaker 1: to me. I haven't heard from him since that day.
Speaker 1: He talked to me ten minutes in his car, and
Speaker 1: I told him about her calling me at since clock.
Speaker 1: I told him about us leaving in the middle of
Speaker 1: the night and going over there, my wife and I,
Speaker 1: and I asked him when I finished telling that, I
Speaker 1: asked him did he think they could solve the caation?
Speaker 1: He said, yes, every case is this case is solvable.
Speaker 1: And so I was left with a feeling that, Okay,
Speaker 1: they got enough information somewhere that they will be able
Speaker 1: to solve this in a short time or a reasonable time.
Speaker 1: And after that day, the GBA and nobody's ever contacted me.
Speaker 1: I think they may have. I know my sister and
Speaker 1: my brother have called them, but they've never called me
Speaker 1: or told me, you know, we're still working on this,
Speaker 1: or we've got some leads, or is there anything else
Speaker 1: you can tell me. You've asked me more question and
Speaker 1: they've asked me. Did they record the conversation that took
Speaker 1: place in the car? Not to my knowledge. If he did,
Speaker 1: he didn't tell me, but not to my knowledge. He
Speaker 1: took him maybe a few notes, but he to my knowledge,
Speaker 1: and recording a home. Do you know if he talked
Speaker 1: to anyone on the white Man side of the family,
Speaker 1: I don't know. He didn't tell me, he didn't ask
Speaker 1: for he didn't elaborate. I might have been in a
Speaker 1: guardian minute with him. And I've told you or you've
Speaker 1: asked more than he asked me. Did anybody ever tell
Speaker 1: you how they were murdered? Not directly that Friday night?
Speaker 1: Because it was large families. Tommy Joe's family was large,
Speaker 1: and they were on Rebecca, and then we lived on
Speaker 1: this into the county. My brother lived in another county,
Speaker 1: my sister lived in town. So at that time, for
Speaker 1: you know, no reason other than the fact that we
Speaker 1: both had large families and lots of friends, and also
Speaker 1: we agreed that that some of the people can meet
Speaker 1: it at my house and some of the people can
Speaker 1: meet at Charles Henry's house. So we met here and
Speaker 1: that night, Friday night, the distric attorney our district attorneys
Speaker 1: in another county. He's from Tifton, and the disc attorney
Speaker 1: came over to the house and we went upstairs, me
Speaker 1: my sister and my brother, and I believe the sheriff
Speaker 1: was here, and we went up into a room and
Speaker 1: he told us that, you know, they had been murdered.
Speaker 1: He told us they had been shot, but he didn't
Speaker 1: give us any other details more than that it was
Speaker 1: a murder case, that they felt like that some marson
Speaker 1: was involved in it, and that they were shot. He
Speaker 1: didn't tell us where, He didn't tell us with what
Speaker 1: or nothing like that. You know, I didn't have a
Speaker 1: problem with that. But that's all the information on the
Speaker 1: other information I've gotten is, you know, a little bit
Speaker 1: here and a little bit there, you hear from someone
Speaker 1: people taught that were involved in it. Has anyone in
Speaker 1: law enforcement ever told you what kind of gun was used? No,
Speaker 1: has anyone in law enforcement ever told you where your
Speaker 1: sister was shot? Has anyone in law enforcement ever told
Speaker 1: anybody you know, either of those things I could. And
Speaker 1: so people have commented that, you know, and I don't
Speaker 1: know if it's their opinion, are if they have heard
Speaker 1: it from some law enforcement, people have commented where they
Speaker 1: might have been shock. I know. Finally, I wasn't allowed
Speaker 1: to go up the night of the murder and when
Speaker 1: the fire they were still putting out the fire. But
Speaker 1: three or four days later, within a week, we were
Speaker 1: allowed to go up to the house. They said that
Speaker 1: they had done all the investigating they needed to do,
Speaker 1: and so we were allowed to go up to the
Speaker 1: house and you can tell where they had sifted through
Speaker 1: the ash and everything. And I questioned one of the
Speaker 1: law enforcement about, you know, why was this area sifted
Speaker 1: through more than other areas. Was that where the bodies
Speaker 1: might have been? And he said, well, that was left
Speaker 1: there for y'all's benefit. I'm sorry said that again. When
Speaker 1: we went into the house, the house was burnt down
Speaker 1: and there was nothing but rubbling ash and you could
Speaker 1: walk through what was left. This was about a week
Speaker 1: after the murder. They did say the wires were cut.
Speaker 1: I did either. All enforcement are some of the firemen,
Speaker 1: the gay there said that the telephone wires had been
Speaker 1: cut to the house. They do know that. I did
Speaker 1: hear that from some from an official line. I couldn't
Speaker 1: say which one. But we were allowed to go up
Speaker 1: to the house. And so my brother and my sister
Speaker 1: and some others we went to the house. And I
Speaker 1: did question why did they allow us to go up
Speaker 1: there so soon? Or I thought was soon after the murder,
Speaker 1: because I told maybe they would want more time for
Speaker 1: themselves to check and see if I can find any clues.
Speaker 1: But we were allowed to go out there, and you
Speaker 1: could tell some areas were it looked like maybe they
Speaker 1: had sifted through the rubble and the ashes more. And
Speaker 1: so I asked a law official, was that were they
Speaker 1: were when they were shot? And he said that. He
Speaker 1: didn't come out and say yes. He said, well, that
Speaker 1: was left there for y'all's benefit. What did you interpret
Speaker 1: that to me? I thought that meant that's where they
Speaker 1: were they were laying. I don't know wine they would
Speaker 1: want us to see where they were laying, but I
Speaker 1: thought that's that was the way of saying yes without
Speaker 1: telling me yes. So if that's the case, can you
Speaker 1: describe for us where the individuals were laying. I think
Speaker 1: one was probably in a living room, one was in
Speaker 1: the hall, and one was in the doorway of a bedroom.
Speaker 1: None of this was at the front door. It was
Speaker 1: all in the interior of the house. Correct. I had
Speaker 1: been in the house before I had won every time
Speaker 1: of Joe was staying there. I had been a bout
Speaker 1: the house of time or two and been inside the house.
Speaker 1: So one area appeared to be what was the dinner
Speaker 1: living room. One area was in what was the hall
Speaker 1: the house, and you know he had a hall. You
Speaker 1: go down to the three bedrooms. One was area where
Speaker 1: the ashes were sent. It looked like it was in
Speaker 1: the hall, and one appeared to be in the doorway.
Speaker 1: So basically, the law enforcement officers on the scene, without
Speaker 1: telling you directly, they were letting you know that the
Speaker 1: bodies were located inside the house. Well, they weren't there
Speaker 1: when we went. There were no loss or was there
Speaker 1: at the house when we went. We were just told
Speaker 1: we could go and visit the side if we wanted to.
Speaker 1: But a law enforcement official did tell you that those Okay,
Speaker 1: that was a later time. So so basically law enforcement
Speaker 1: told you that the shootings took place inside the residents.
Speaker 1: They didn't tell me that. They led me to believe
Speaker 1: that by what telling me that we when I asked
Speaker 1: a question, was that where the bodies were? Then you
Speaker 1: hate to assume, but that's once you assumed, they were
Speaker 1: allowing you to know. That's what you took away from
Speaker 1: this is that it happened inside, but the bodies were
Speaker 1: found inside. Law enforcement told you that the telephone wire
Speaker 1: was cut to the residents. If it's a law enforcement
Speaker 1: or one of the firefighters, but one of the officials
Speaker 1: that was there when they were putting out the fire,
Speaker 1: whether it was a fireman or whether it was a
Speaker 1: volunteer fireman or one of the losses. I don't remember
Speaker 1: which one, but we were told that the phone arts
Speaker 1: hadn't been cut. I couldn't say who, but I was
Speaker 1: also told I asked, I did ask the question. I
Speaker 1: don't remember what law losser or whatever. But the door
Speaker 1: was not locked, and so I know Tim would not
Speaker 1: have opened the door to have told a stranger in
Speaker 1: the middle of the night. I asked one of the fireman,
Speaker 1: I did ask the question, was the doors locked? And
Speaker 1: he said no. So we've got a cut telephone line
Speaker 1: at an unlocked door and bodies located inside. The residents
Speaker 1: that's the information that I've gathered from different ones that
Speaker 1: were the responders that were there at the fire, from
Speaker 1: different responders over time. I didn't get all those answers
Speaker 1: from the same person, but over time, different ones that
Speaker 1: I had talked to that were there was a volunteer
Speaker 1: fireman or whether it was a law officer. Those are
Speaker 1: some things that that would told you mentioned that your
Speaker 1: sister and some others from time to time have contacted
Speaker 1: the gb I about this, K. Do you know if
Speaker 1: the GBI has told them anything? I do not they
Speaker 1: You know, we would talk something, we don't. You know,
Speaker 1: every time I hear something, I don't call them because
Speaker 1: a lot of us hearsay and any time you talk
Speaker 1: with somebody, some of it's something they've heard from two
Speaker 1: or three other sources. So I don't call them every
Speaker 1: time I hear something. They don't call me every time
Speaker 1: that they hear something. But you know, we have we
Speaker 1: do communicate, But I don't know. I couldn't tell you
Speaker 1: what all the g b I has told them. Do
Speaker 1: you have that they have not contacted me and told
Speaker 1: me anything. Do you have the impression that anybody is
Speaker 1: really still working on this case or is it your
Speaker 1: belief that it's probably gathering dust on the files, gathering
Speaker 1: dust somewhere. Sometimes I feel like he's gathering dust because
Speaker 1: I haven't heard anything in the g B I, So
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if he's any pressure
Speaker 1: put on them. They weren't politically involved or sometimes I've
Speaker 1: feld that way, and I don't blame we've had. You know,
Speaker 1: now we're on our third sheriff that's been elected. We
Speaker 1: had a sheriff that was in from for a short
Speaker 1: time between elections. We're on our fore sheriff. And by now,
Speaker 1: you know, it grows cold. And I know the lead
Speaker 1: investigator that was working with the sheriff's department when the
Speaker 1: murder happened, he no longer works with the sheriff's department.
Speaker 1: So I don't know what. You don't know what theories
Speaker 1: he had. You don't know what suspicions he had. You
Speaker 1: don't know what evidence he had somebody else, you know,
Speaker 1: they come in. I don't know how much of that
Speaker 1: he passed along. I don't know what theories he might
Speaker 1: have had that he could have been working on. So
Speaker 1: you know, you have to question, where is it getting cold?
Speaker 1: The President sheriff I have talked to and he has
Speaker 1: talked to me, and he has communicated with me. He
Speaker 1: told me one time not long ago that he had
Speaker 1: communicated with the g b I and was wanting them
Speaker 1: to get maybe a different set of eyes looking at
Speaker 1: the evidence to see, you know, someone else maybe could
Speaker 1: pick up or see something that the original investing hers
Speaker 1: might not see. Is there anything else that you think
Speaker 1: is important that we haven't talked about, that I've missed,
Speaker 1: that you think might be important. I just want someone to,
Speaker 1: you know, just keep asking questions and keep it current,
Speaker 1: because sooner or later, you know, maybe somebody will say something,
Speaker 1: somebody will remember something. People have a tendency either if
Speaker 1: someone that didn't have a conscious at all, they either
Speaker 1: going to brag about it, or someone has a conscious
Speaker 1: they're gonna feel guilty and want to tell someone maybe
Speaker 1: to get forgiveness. So one or the two. Either they're
Speaker 1: gonna brag about doing it and not getting caught, or
Speaker 1: either they're going to want someone to forgive them because
Speaker 1: their consciousness bothering them. But either way, they're going to
Speaker 1: talk to somebody somewhere sometime, And so we have to
Speaker 1: keep it going and keep it current so that that
Speaker 1: person that hears that vital information will come forward with it. Well,
Speaker 1: what I can tell you is that we've recently come
Speaker 1: across some information that somebody claims to know quite a
Speaker 1: bit about the specific facts of this case, and we've
Speaker 1: passed that onto the g b I. What they do
Speaker 1: with it, I don't know, But what I can tell
Speaker 1: you is that we've come across some information that has
Speaker 1: the potential to solve this case, and we passed it
Speaker 1: onto the g b I very recently. Well, I am
Speaker 1: very grateful, and I'm very thankful for what you're doing.
Speaker 1: I'm thankful that you took interest in it and that
Speaker 1: you're bringing it back to light, because that keeps people talking,
Speaker 1: and it keeps it fresh on other people's mind. And
Speaker 1: each time we did a let my sheriff, they would
Speaker 1: come and they would ask for my vote, and I
Speaker 1: would ask them to treat the case as though it
Speaker 1: was one of their relatives, meaning that I wouldn't want
Speaker 1: them to just put it in a box and let
Speaker 1: it collect dust, but to keep digging at it until
Speaker 1: they found somebody. After speaking with David Wheeler, I thought
Speaker 1: more about what I had heard, and I reached back
Speaker 1: out to clarify just a couple of details. I wanted
Speaker 1: to know more about the scene at Charles Henry's house
Speaker 1: the morning of the fire, David wrote to me. When
Speaker 1: we arrived at Charles Henry and Diane's home, Charles Henry
Speaker 1: told us Chip was there. So just to keep things
Speaker 1: straight here, Chip Wideman is Charles Henry's adult son who
Speaker 1: was married at the time and did not live at
Speaker 1: his parents house. David goes on to say he was
Speaker 1: told Chip had taken a bath and gone to bed.
Speaker 1: That conversation took place at approximately four to four thirty
Speaker 1: a m. We did not see Chip until close to
Speaker 1: lunch on Friday. To my knowledge, Charles Henry voluntarily told
Speaker 1: us about Chip. We never asked where he was. David
Speaker 1: also clarified that, according to what he was told at
Speaker 1: the time of the fire, Diane Wideman was in Florida
Speaker 1: along with her son, Chip's wife, visiting Miss Joe, and
Speaker 1: that they had been there since the day before the fire,
Speaker 1: which would have been Thursday. We've actually been looking at
Speaker 1: the Wideman murders for quite some time now, you see.
Speaker 1: When Payne Lindsay, host of our Sister podcast up in
Speaker 1: was in South Georgia investigating the disappearance of Irwin County
Speaker 1: history teacher and beauty queen Tera Grinstead. Someone told paying
Speaker 1: some very compelling information about the Wideman murders in nearby Rebecca, Georgia. Later, however,
Speaker 1: when we tried to follow up with this person, he
Speaker 1: didn't have anything to say except for calling us swine. Nevertheless,
Speaker 1: we were able to independently corroborate much of what the
Speaker 1: caller had initially said the first time. We were able
Speaker 1: to corroborate that his ex son in law did in
Speaker 1: fact Diana car crash, and we were able to corroborate
Speaker 1: that a close relative of the Wideman murder victims was
Speaker 1: a pallbearer at the funeral following that car crash. So
Speaker 1: why the change of heart on behalf of this caller.
Speaker 1: That's anyone's guess at this point. But this person's purported
Speaker 1: knowledge of the case could well be the key to
Speaker 1: finally solving the Wideman murder case. After fifteen long years,
Speaker 1: just by talking to the community, asking questions and looking
Speaker 1: at publicly available information, we've learned quite a bit about
Speaker 1: this unsolved triple murder. I wonder what would be possible
Speaker 1: if the g b I, or even someone like John
Speaker 1: Dawes were to really put their shoulder into this, what
Speaker 1: else might they learn if they redoubled their efforts with
Speaker 1: the full investigative capabilities of the State of Georgia. Now
Speaker 1: it's important to understand we're not accusing anyone of anything,
Speaker 1: but in addition to the phone call that we turned
Speaker 1: over to the g b I, which frankly, in my opinion,
Speaker 1: has the potential to solve this case entirely, we did
Speaker 1: come across something else that we found interesting and at
Speaker 1: a minimum quite odd. Remember, Tommy, Joe and Deborah Wideman
Speaker 1: had a nephew, Charles Wideman the third, also known as
Speaker 1: Chip Wideman. According to David Wheeler, Chip and his father Charles,
Speaker 1: were the only ones at Charles Wideman's home on the
Speaker 1: morning of the murders. He also mentioned that Chip wasn't
Speaker 1: really anywhere to be seen in the immediate aftermath of
Speaker 1: the fire. I don't know what this means, and we're
Speaker 1: not accusing anyone of anything, but one thing on chips
Speaker 1: Facebook page at the time of this recording really caught
Speaker 1: our attention. It's what is listed as his favorite quote.
Speaker 1: It says three can keep a secret if two are dead.
Speaker 1: We will continue to follow this case in the future
Speaker 1: and plan to come out with more episodes in a
Speaker 1: few months, so please, if you have any information at
Speaker 1: all about this case, contact the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.
Speaker 1: You can also contact us directly at Sworn tips at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. Sworn is produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta.
Speaker 1: Story and production by Payne Lindsay, Mason Lindsay and Meredith
Speaker 1: Steadman and myself Philip Holloway. Sound designed by Pine Lindsay,
Speaker 1: Executive producers Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. Mixed and mastered
Speaker 1: by Resonate Recordings. Also, if you haven't yet, please check
Speaker 1: out our sister podcast, Up and Vanished that follows the
Speaker 1: investigation into the disappearance of Georgia High School teacher and
Speaker 1: beauty queen Tara Grinstead ven Vanished is available now on
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening. This is Philip Holloway and
Speaker 1: I'll see you next time on Sword