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Speaker 1: You place your left hand on the Bible and raise

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Speaker 1: your right hand and repeat after me. I you solemnly

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Speaker 1: swear who the jury buying it defended not to Your

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Speaker 1: process continued this weekend in Ferguson and around the country,

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Speaker 1: resisting your sense. If it doesn't fit, you must to quit. Judge,

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Speaker 1: you are the last line of reason in this case.

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Speaker 1: Every one of us took out all the offs, and

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Speaker 1: we're sworn to uphold the Constitution. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta,

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Speaker 1: this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. On this

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Speaker 1: episode of Closing Statements, Phil talks to one of Debora

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Speaker 1: Wideman's family members who reached out to him after the

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Speaker 1: first three episodes were released. But first we'll hear Jason

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Speaker 1: Walker's perspective to recap, Jason Walker was the alleged father

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Speaker 1: of Melissa's baby, someone who seemed to have a potential

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Speaker 1: motive at the time. He agreed to talk to us

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Speaker 1: about his experience, but he didn't want his voice to

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Speaker 1: be used. I'll be reading the questions that we asked

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Speaker 1: Jason and Phil with voices responses. What was your life

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Speaker 1: like in Turner County in two thousand two, where did

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Speaker 1: you live. What was your job? I lived in the

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Speaker 1: northern part of the county, working on a decent sized

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Speaker 1: farm in South Crisp County. I enjoyed the work and

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Speaker 1: who I worked for, no complaints. What was your relationship

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Speaker 1: with Melissa Like? Someone mentioned to us that you may

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Speaker 1: have been married at the time you were seeing Melissa.

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Speaker 1: Is that right? Or were you exclusively with Melissa at

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Speaker 1: the time. I was not married at the time of

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Speaker 1: the incident. It's no secret that our relationships started when

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Speaker 1: I was married. We continued after I divorced. I'll not

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Speaker 1: dispute that there were ups and downs. It's no secret

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Speaker 1: you probably know that. What was your relationship with t

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Speaker 1: J and Deborah Like? Our parents treated me very well,

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Speaker 1: even at times when maybe they shouldn't have. They welcomed

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Speaker 1: me in their home and never made me feel like

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Speaker 1: they didn't want me there. We even went on an

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Speaker 1: out of town trip or two. What was your alibi

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Speaker 1: that night? We heard from a credible source that your

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Speaker 1: car hood was cold that morning and that you couldn't

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Speaker 1: have left your house in that car. Could you tell

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Speaker 1: us the same alibi you told the police. If my

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Speaker 1: old age memory serves me right, We had gone to

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Speaker 1: Cordial Walmart for some things, and then stopped to see

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Speaker 1: a couple of guys at the GSP post when it

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Speaker 1: was still on Midway Road. Then when I went home,

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Speaker 1: I was home until I was notified of the fire.

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Speaker 1: When I was notified, I rode with someone to the house.

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Speaker 1: Did you feel like you're the only person of interest

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Speaker 1: in that case or that there was too much focus

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Speaker 1: on you? How did the investigation impact your personal life

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Speaker 1: with internal County? What about your professional life? I don't

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Speaker 1: think I was the only suspect, of course, in the situation.

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Speaker 1: I was the first one that came to their minds.

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Speaker 1: The second part of that question I can't really answer

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Speaker 1: because I don't know how much anyone else was question

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Speaker 1: third part, you know things like this, Well, I've easily

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Speaker 1: make people wonder. I've maintained my innocence the whole time

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Speaker 1: and still do very very few ever treated me different.

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Speaker 1: What do you think could have been done differently in

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Speaker 1: the investigation process in order to find the person or

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Speaker 1: people that did this and, as you said, bring relief

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Speaker 1: to those of you who were wrongly accused. I can't

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Speaker 1: really answer this because I only know what they did

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Speaker 1: when they questioned me. I allowed a search of my

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Speaker 1: home and my car without them having a warrant. I

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Speaker 1: had no reason to interfere or make it hard on them.

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Speaker 1: I know Slash News several of the guys that were

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Speaker 1: on the case at the time. They were doing their job,

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Speaker 1: and we remain good friends today. Again, though, I can

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Speaker 1: only answer about how I was questioned, not anyone else.

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Speaker 1: Who else do you think was wrongly accused along with you?

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Speaker 1: I can only speak for me. I know I was

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Speaker 1: wrongly accused, and I really don't know who was questioned

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Speaker 1: or in what manner. Do you think there are still

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Speaker 1: people in Turner County that think you had something to

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Speaker 1: do with the incident until it's solved. I'm sure there are,

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Speaker 1: but I don't think I'm the only one people suspect.

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Speaker 1: But can't speak for anyone else either. I guess the

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Speaker 1: media could only report on what they were told by

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Speaker 1: law enforcement. I don't think they tried to push an opinion,

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Speaker 1: only what they were given. How do you think the

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Speaker 1: media handled the case? I guess the media could only

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Speaker 1: report on what they were told by law enforcement. I

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Speaker 1: don't think they tried to push an opinion, only told

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Speaker 1: what they were given. Finally, Jason says, I hope that

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Speaker 1: helps you. I hope what you're doing finds the missing

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Speaker 1: piece or that one person that knows what happened. We

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Speaker 1: both know that someone knows what happened, and it's long

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Speaker 1: overdue that the truth be told. Thanks for reaching out

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Speaker 1: to me, and I hope what I've told you helped.

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Speaker 1: Good luck with getting others to reply back to you.

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Speaker 1: David Er, one of Deborah's younger brothers, reached out to

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Speaker 1: Phil after the first three episodes aired. He wanted to

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Speaker 1: talk to us. He said he had something to share,

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Speaker 1: so Phil called him back. David, can you please tell

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Speaker 1: us what your name is and how you're connected to

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Speaker 1: this case. I am David Wheeler. I am the younger

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Speaker 1: brother of Deborah Wideman. Devor and Tom and Joe and

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Speaker 1: Melissa were part of my family. Where do you live?

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Speaker 1: I live in Sycamore, Georgia, about a mile or two

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Speaker 1: from the Kiff County line and about five miles from

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Speaker 1: from Ashman, Georgian, about twelve miles from Rebecca, where they lived.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to take a few minutes to talk about

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Speaker 1: your sister and her family, the people that lost their lives,

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Speaker 1: What can you tell us about them? They were very friendly,

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Speaker 1: very social. Everybody in the community knew them. Everybody in

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Speaker 1: the county. Between Devera and Tom and Joe, they were

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Speaker 1: liked by every one. I don't know anybody that didn't

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Speaker 1: like them. Tomma Joe was a very friend, happy going,

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Speaker 1: easy going person. Devil was also they loved people. They

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Speaker 1: loved to be around people, and they love to have

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Speaker 1: a good time. What about your niece, Can you tell

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Speaker 1: us something about her? I think she was also one

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Speaker 1: that was very friendlish, She enjoyed her friends. She was

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Speaker 1: expecting with her first child. She was about a month

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Speaker 1: or six weeks away from from the living her child.

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Speaker 1: She was very friendly, had lots of friends in the community.

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Speaker 1: Even don't know if anyone that disliked her. She was

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Speaker 1: very happy, very joyful. Do we know who the father

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Speaker 1: of her unborn child was? It was suspected that it

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Speaker 1: was a Walker, Jason Walker. To my knowledge that too

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Speaker 1: the dad was. Is that what she believed as well? Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I know this may be difficult, but if you can,

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Speaker 1: can you kind of walk us through how you found

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Speaker 1: out about the fire and ultimately the murders. It was

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Speaker 1: a Thursday afternoon. That Thursday afternoon, I actually had a

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Speaker 1: phone call from my sister Debor. I was outside and

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Speaker 1: one of the my daughter I believe, brought me the

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Speaker 1: house phone. She had called to ask if we would

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Speaker 1: be coming to Easter. I believe Easter was the not

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Speaker 1: that weekend, but the following weekend, and they wanted to

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Speaker 1: have a get together at at their house, and they

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Speaker 1: were staying at Toma Joe's mother's home. And so around

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Speaker 1: six o'clock she get called and we talked and had

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Speaker 1: a great conversation, talked about twenty minutes, and we told

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Speaker 1: her Or I told her that we would become for Easter.

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Speaker 1: And then about tween two and three o'clock that morning,

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Speaker 1: Friday morning, I got a phone call from elderly friend

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Speaker 1: that lived in Rebecca, and she called the house and

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Speaker 1: said that Devon Toma Joe's the house was on fire.

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Speaker 1: It was Tom Joe's mother's house. Said the house was

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Speaker 1: on fire, but they could not find Devor and Toma

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Speaker 1: joinning where nobody could reach them. They tried calling and

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Speaker 1: and nobody could reach them or nobody knew where they was,

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Speaker 1: and she hung up. I called my sister and told

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Speaker 1: her that the house was on fire and that nobody

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Speaker 1: could get ahold of Damner coming Joe. And the first

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Speaker 1: thing to come in my mind was that maybe Melissa

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Speaker 1: had went into labor, maybe they had to take her

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Speaker 1: to the hospital, And so I told her she would

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Speaker 1: call the hospital and call our brother who lived in

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Speaker 1: Irbville at the time. Then I was going to call

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Speaker 1: my father in law. We had three small children that

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Speaker 1: were nine, eleven, and fifteen at that time, and so

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Speaker 1: we called him and asked him if he could come

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Speaker 1: over to the house because we was going to drive

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Speaker 1: to Rebecca and see if we could find out what

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Speaker 1: was going on, or see if we could find Devin,

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Speaker 1: Tom and Joe. My sister called back and said that

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Speaker 1: she had called the closest hospitals, the two or three

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Speaker 1: hospitals around, and they did not have a Melissa there,

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Speaker 1: did not have her. They're delivering or no when was

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Speaker 1: there by that name. So we drove to the house.

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Speaker 1: Their houses up on isolated drive on a country highway.

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Speaker 1: But when we got there there was a deputy sheriff

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Speaker 1: at the end of the driveway. What time did you

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Speaker 1: get to the side of the fire, I would say

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Speaker 1: around four thirty. It's far enough off the roads. I

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Speaker 1: couldn't tell. Knew there were a lot of fire trucks

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Speaker 1: up there and appear to boost a lot of the

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Speaker 1: police cars. But the devity's sheriff would not allow us

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Speaker 1: to go up into the drive. He would not allow

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Speaker 1: us to go up to the house. I asked him,

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Speaker 1: I told him who I was, told him it was

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Speaker 1: my sister's house and we were trying to find out

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Speaker 1: where they were. But he would not allow us to

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Speaker 1: go up into the drive. So when we left there,

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Speaker 1: we went to Charles Henry's house, that was Toma Joe's brother,

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Speaker 1: and we went to Charles Henry's house. He was there.

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Speaker 1: We he met us at the door, and we went

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Speaker 1: in and I was talking to him and just asking

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Speaker 1: him to even know anything, And at that time he

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Speaker 1: told us he didn't know anything. He didn't know where

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Speaker 1: they were, he didn't know anything about He did tell

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Speaker 1: us that he had been to the house. So wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, they let him in the house or to

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Speaker 1: the scene, but they wouldn't let you apparently, So he

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Speaker 1: told us that he had been there and then he

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Speaker 1: had left, but they would not allow us to go

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Speaker 1: up into the house. Did he say if he went

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Speaker 1: there with anyone else? He did not. He didn't say

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Speaker 1: if he was by himself or him one took him,

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Speaker 1: or if anybody went with him. He didn't. He did

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Speaker 1: not imply that anyone had went with him at that time.

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Speaker 1: He did tell us that his son was there at

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Speaker 1: the house where we were now at his house, he

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Speaker 1: was in the bedroom of sleep, but he didn't tell

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Speaker 1: us whether he didn't say he was at the house

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Speaker 1: with him. What time of day was it that you

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Speaker 1: were at Charles's house? We were probably back at charles

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Speaker 1: is between four thirty and five. How long did you

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Speaker 1: stay there? We stayed there till after lunch the following day,

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Speaker 1: all right, at lunch, that was a Friday. We stayed

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Speaker 1: there toil long was lunch. We were there about twenty

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Speaker 1: minutes maybe, and my brother Larry Weather, he and his

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Speaker 1: wife they showed up at Charles's Charles Henrys, and then

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Speaker 1: maybe another thirty minutes, and my sister showed up there.

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Speaker 1: And by that time it's probably around five thirty quarter

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Speaker 1: to six in the morning. And by that time there

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Speaker 1: were people in the community who had heard about the

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Speaker 1: house fire that were beginning to show up at the house.

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Speaker 1: So by six o'clock the house was pretty well full

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Speaker 1: of people in the community. You mentioned that Charles Son

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Speaker 1: was sleeping. Did you ever see him come out? I

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Speaker 1: did not see him until probably ten o'clock the next morning.

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Speaker 1: Had you been there NonStop that whole time? I had

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Speaker 1: been in the house from around four thirty and five.

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Speaker 1: We've been there from four thirty until tween eleven and twelve.

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Speaker 1: We left and came back to our house between eleven

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Speaker 1: and twelve p m. Am. Well eleven made him Friday morning.

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Speaker 1: We were there from five am, probably four thirty am

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Speaker 1: till eleven or twelve a m. And the only person

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Speaker 1: you were talking with was Charles correct. He was only

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Speaker 1: one that came out and talked to me and my brother.

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Speaker 1: And then probably around eight o'clock the corner Edgar Perry

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Speaker 1: came over to the house and told us that the

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Speaker 1: bodies were in the house and that there was foul play.

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Speaker 1: He did not tell us what had happened, but he

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Speaker 1: said there was foul play and this was a criminal

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Speaker 1: investigation at this time. What was your reaction and what

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Speaker 1: was everyone else's reaction? Well, everyone was shocked and surprised,

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Speaker 1: you know, you couldn't believe that something like this had

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Speaker 1: happened to them, just going through your mind, how could

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Speaker 1: this have happened? Who could have done this? There was

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Speaker 1: nobody that disliked them. The house is far enough off

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Speaker 1: the road. Within a day or two, there was all

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Speaker 1: kinds of theories and all kind of Everybody had their

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Speaker 1: different opinions and ideas about who did it or what happened.

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Speaker 1: So who was present when the coroner came to deliver

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Speaker 1: that news to you, Charles Henry, myself and my wife,

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Speaker 1: and Charles Henry's I don't believe the son was there

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Speaker 1: at that time where out when he talked to us,

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Speaker 1: But there was my sister and my brother and his wife,

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Speaker 1: and then there was a large number of people from

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Speaker 1: the community. There was probably twenty or thirty people from

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Speaker 1: the community were there also, and he he just kind

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Speaker 1: of took us to the side in the room. But

247
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Speaker 1: there were some other people standing around. I couldn't call

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Speaker 1: their names. Where there were some other people standing around

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Speaker 1: when he he told us that there was foul play.

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Speaker 1: Was there anything that you felt was unusual about the

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Speaker 1: time that you spent at Charles's house that morning? I

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Speaker 1: don't know it was just kind of quiet. I don't

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Speaker 1: really know. I'd have to think on that question for

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Speaker 1: a moment. Well, let me ask you another question. Did

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Speaker 1: you ever wonder why Charles was allowed to go to

256
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Speaker 1: the side of the fire but you weren't. Well, I

257
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Speaker 1: did question, Dad. I didn't want to know why we

258
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Speaker 1: couldn't go up there since it was our our sister,

259
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Speaker 1: and you know, I'm wondering why they wouldn't allow us

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Speaker 1: to go up there and find out. I know it

261
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,319
Speaker 1: was his, his property or his family's property, but I

262
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,280
Speaker 1: did question, you know, one couldn't we go up there,

263
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Speaker 1: or at least way up there until they found out something.

264
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Speaker 1: Why was your sister and her family staying at that

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Speaker 1: house at that time? They often did that. Toma Joe's

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Speaker 1: mother and Miss Joe. She lived in Frontadina and I

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Speaker 1: think I don't know, but I'm pretty sure she had

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Speaker 1: some valuable items in the house. I know she probably

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Speaker 1: had her husband or Toma Joe's daddy, Mr. Widman, I

270
00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:19,480
Speaker 1: believe at one time. I know one time he had

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Speaker 1: a lot of guns, a lot of collectible guns, and

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Speaker 1: she wanted them to stay there for to secure her home.

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Speaker 1: She had some valuable items there and to help up

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Speaker 1: keep the home and to show that, you know, somebody

275
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,120
Speaker 1: was in and out of the house. So they quite

276
00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,320
Speaker 1: frequently would go up there and stay. They might stay

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Speaker 1: up there the weekend, or stay up there three or

278
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Speaker 1: four days out a week, or sometimes two or three

279
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Speaker 1: weeks out of time, and then go back to their

280
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Speaker 1: house in Rebecca, a couple of miles away. But they

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00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:50,080
Speaker 1: stayed because for security reasons for her home. So Miss Joe,

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Speaker 1: was she a full time resident at Fernandina Beach or

283
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Speaker 1: did she split her time and how did that work?

284
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Speaker 1: She spent the majority of her time in front of

285
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Speaker 1: Dama Beach. I believe for reasons how well she stayed

286
00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,440
Speaker 1: down there because of the sea air or whatever, or

287
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,840
Speaker 1: she had asthma or I don't you know. I don't

288
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,280
Speaker 1: know exactly, but it was some health reasons was one

289
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Speaker 1: of the reasons she stayed down in front of Dena.

290
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Speaker 1: Do you know where she was the night of the fire.

291
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Speaker 1: I had thought that she was at her home in

292
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Speaker 1: front of Dena. Now later it come out that she

293
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,160
Speaker 1: may have been in the hospital, But as she was,

294
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Speaker 1: I thought it would have been down there from Dana somewhere.

295
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Speaker 1: Then I did see a news report that said it

296
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Speaker 1: actually quoted Charles Wideman as saying that she was in

297
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Speaker 1: the hospital the night of the fire. That's possible. I

298
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,640
Speaker 1: haven't heard anything to verify that, but that's possible. I

299
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,440
Speaker 1: know she was very sickly. I know she she passed

300
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Speaker 1: away within the week or ten days of Tom and

301
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,600
Speaker 1: Joe and Devorah Melissa's death. She passed away, So she

302
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,360
Speaker 1: died within a week or ten days of your sister

303
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,560
Speaker 1: and her family's murder. That's correct, And she believed that

304
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Speaker 1: they did not tell her because of her help. They

305
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:05,120
Speaker 1: didn't tell her until after the funeral latter was all over. Wait,

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00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,600
Speaker 1: they didn't tell miss Joe that her family had been murdered.

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Speaker 1: I think that's correct. I think that's what I had heard,

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Speaker 1: that they did not tell her until it was after

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Speaker 1: the funeral. If she was told then, but I believe

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Speaker 1: it was after the funeral when she was told. Now

311
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,520
Speaker 1: I've come to learn that later there was some litigation

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Speaker 1: between the estate of your sister and the estate of

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Speaker 1: miss Joe. Is that correct. I'm not as familiar with that.

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Speaker 1: My brother's more familiar with that part of it. I

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Speaker 1: would hesitate to answer on that because I'm I don't

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00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,440
Speaker 1: know enough to give a correct answer. Okay, can you

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Speaker 1: tell us about Ms Joe's financial circumstances. Was she well offered?

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Speaker 1: Was she a person of modest means? I don't know

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Speaker 1: her exact figure, but she would I wouldn't probably consider

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Speaker 1: well if she was a landowner, and she probably had

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Speaker 1: stalking things. But I know she had two or three

322
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Speaker 1: farms in the county, in the house in front of

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Speaker 1: Dana or some property in front of DNA, so I

324
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Speaker 1: would you know, I would consider that more than honest.

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Speaker 1: I don't know an exact figure, but I would think

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Speaker 1: it's more than modest. When was the last time your

327
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:33,600
Speaker 1: brother in law saw his mother. I believe him and

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Speaker 1: Charles Henry had went down and visited her within a

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Speaker 1: month before the murders. I don't know an exact date,

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Speaker 1: but him and Charles Henry had been down there to

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Speaker 1: see her. You know, I can't, like I said, I

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Speaker 1: can't say an exact date, but within weeks or a

333
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Speaker 1: month or less from the murders happening. I think he

334
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,760
Speaker 1: told me earlier today when we talked, that some people

335
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,240
Speaker 1: went to visit her. It just within a day or

336
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Speaker 1: two of the murders. Who was that. I believe Charles

337
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,399
Speaker 1: Henry's wife and his daughter in law they were there

338
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:04,480
Speaker 1: the day of the murder, and maybe he had went

339
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,200
Speaker 1: the day before. I don't know when they left to

340
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,640
Speaker 1: go down there, but they were not at the house.

341
00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:10,920
Speaker 1: And when you know, we did ask where it was Diane,

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Speaker 1: his wife, and he said they were down in Fernandina

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Speaker 1: on the night of the murders. Do you know if

344
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:20,760
Speaker 1: anyone was visiting Ms. Joe? To my knowledge, Diane and

345
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,159
Speaker 1: his son's wife were visiting her or had left to

346
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,280
Speaker 1: go down there. I don't know when they left, but

347
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,840
Speaker 1: he said they were going to Fernandina, So I don't

348
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,159
Speaker 1: know when they left to go, but they were going

349
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Speaker 1: to Frontandana to see Ms. Joe. So on the night

350
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Speaker 1: of the murders, Charles Widenman and his son were in Rebecca,

351
00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,119
Speaker 1: but the rest of the family was in Fernandina. Is

352
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,240
Speaker 1: that correct? Correct? That's what I was told. That's what

353
00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,640
Speaker 1: Charles Henry had said, that they were gone down there.

354
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:49,920
Speaker 1: He didn't say when they left, but the night in

355
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:51,960
Speaker 1: the murders, he and his son were the only ones

356
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,080
Speaker 1: in town or at home. How about your sister and

357
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,360
Speaker 1: her family had anyone else gone to visit Ms Joe.

358
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,760
Speaker 1: I couldn't say. I know Tom and Joe and Deva

359
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,280
Speaker 1: would frequently go down and visit with her and check

360
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,520
Speaker 1: on her. They would check on her when she would

361
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,840
Speaker 1: come home. But now I can't say for certain who

362
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,960
Speaker 1: else went down there to see her, or how often?

363
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:15,440
Speaker 1: Can you tell me the story that we talked about

364
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Speaker 1: earlier today about somebody going and seeing her just before

365
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,480
Speaker 1: the murders and coming back with some jewelry. I was

366
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,359
Speaker 1: told I thought that Tom and Joe had and when

367
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:25,879
Speaker 1: Charles went down there, that she had given Tom and

368
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,760
Speaker 1: Joe's some jewelry or something. I don't know how much

369
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:30,920
Speaker 1: or one kind would she had given him some and

370
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 1: had brought it back home. Do you want to talk

371
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:38,240
Speaker 1: about the relationship now between your side of the family

372
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,600
Speaker 1: and the Wideman's. Is that something you're comfortable talking about?

373
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Speaker 1: Not really? You know, I see them and I speak

374
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,239
Speaker 1: with them, and they speak when me. We was at

375
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Speaker 1: a I was at a meeting just recently, and and

376
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:51,920
Speaker 1: they were president at the meeting. You know, we we

377
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,879
Speaker 1: speak to one another and we've occasionally run into one

378
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:59,920
Speaker 1: another in town. Does anybody ever talk to you about

379
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,399
Speaker 1: the murders. People come up from time to time and

380
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,440
Speaker 1: they'll ask me or they'll talk to me and they'll

381
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,240
Speaker 1: give me their opinion, they'll give me their suspicions. I

382
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,600
Speaker 1: have very seldom bring it up from very seldom talk

383
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,000
Speaker 1: about it. Our our daughter initiated the conversation. But it

384
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,159
Speaker 1: doesn't offend me or bother me. When someone comes up

385
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:17,959
Speaker 1: and they want to talk or they want to ask her,

386
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,360
Speaker 1: you know, they want to express their concern. Most time,

387
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,200
Speaker 1: when the sheriff comes up and publicizes their murders again

388
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,240
Speaker 1: or speaks on the in the newspaper, or speaks on

389
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,080
Speaker 1: the local television station in al Any, you know, to

390
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,960
Speaker 1: generate some conversations and people come up and they'll talk

391
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,119
Speaker 1: with their ask her that you know, they're sorry about

392
00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,520
Speaker 1: what happened and all it did affect my family. I

393
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,320
Speaker 1: don't bring it up and talk about it much because

394
00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,720
Speaker 1: I had a nine year old son and eleven year

395
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,119
Speaker 1: old daughter and a fifteen year old daughter, and we

396
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,159
Speaker 1: didn't talk about it a whole lot because of my

397
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:49,680
Speaker 1: nine year old and eleven year old. For over a year.

398
00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 1: We had just built a house and we had just

399
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,359
Speaker 1: moved in it. We've been here about a year and

400
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,200
Speaker 1: for about a year a year and a half, my

401
00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,440
Speaker 1: two youngest children slept on the floor by the bed

402
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 1: between in the wall and they slept there for a

403
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,720
Speaker 1: year and a half as they were afraid, and even

404
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,080
Speaker 1: now talking to you and bring it up, it kind

405
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 1: of my wife gets a little nervous, a little scared

406
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 1: when it's brought back up. I didn't bring it up

407
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 1: and didn't talk about it and much around them. Because

408
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 1: of that, my son probably took four or five years

409
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 1: before he would go outside by himself. If we was inside,

410
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 1: he had to be inside. If we were outside, he

411
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,879
Speaker 1: had to be outside. Now they were scared, as as

412
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,120
Speaker 1: young as they were, they were scared something might happen

413
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 1: to us or you know, they thought, could this happen

414
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 1: to one of us because somebody come to our house

415
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,040
Speaker 1: and due to us what happened to my sister. So

416
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 1: when they were president around, we tried not to talk

417
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 1: about it very much, as it took a while for

418
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,360
Speaker 1: them to be able to go oude on their own.

419
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 1: If the door opening my son heard it, he would

420
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,400
Speaker 1: run outside to see where we was going to where

421
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,920
Speaker 1: I was going. It would really bother him. If I

422
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,720
Speaker 1: went to town and my wife Vicky, she stayed at home.

423
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 1: He would be a nervous wreck until we would all

424
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 1: be together. He wanted everybody together. He didn't like us

425
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 1: to be separated, so it took its toll on our family.

426
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 1: That's something like this could happen in a small community

427
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,400
Speaker 1: like this. Were you ever interviewed by law enforcement? Yes?

428
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,639
Speaker 1: And no. The g b I the next day. This

429
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 1: happened probably Friday afternoon, after lunch, two or three or

430
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 1: four o'clock in the afternoon, if you could call it that.

431
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 1: The g b I. He did come by. He asked

432
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,199
Speaker 1: me to step outside. I stepped out side. We went

433
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 1: and set in his car. He maybe talked to me

434
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,200
Speaker 1: for ten minutes. You know, at the time, you don't

435
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 1: think about what he's doing, but I guess he was

436
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,679
Speaker 1: asking some questions to see make sure that I had

437
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 1: an alibi navy. He asked me where was I had

438
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,119
Speaker 1: or what was I doing? And I told him that

439
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 1: I had talked to Delver at six o'clock that afternoon,

440
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 1: and then I told him about the phone call in

441
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:47,920
Speaker 1: the middle of the night, and that my wife and

442
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 1: I we went to Rebecca and then we was at

443
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 1: Charles Henry's house, and that was all the questions he

444
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 1: asked me. He never talked to my wife, he never

445
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,640
Speaker 1: talked to my kids. He never talked to anybody else

446
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 1: to verify my story. So the g B I never

447
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 1: verified your alibi. They never talked to any other other

448
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,399
Speaker 1: my my wife, or my children. They never talked to

449
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,880
Speaker 1: them too, you know, never talked to her to say

450
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: was this what happened? He never come back and talked

451
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 1: to me. I haven't heard from him since that day.

452
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: He talked to me ten minutes in his car, and

453
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,119
Speaker 1: I told him about her calling me at since clock.

454
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 1: I told him about us leaving in the middle of

455
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 1: the night and going over there, my wife and I,

456
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 1: and I asked him when I finished telling that, I

457
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 1: asked him did he think they could solve the caation?

458
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 1: He said, yes, every case is this case is solvable.

459
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 1: And so I was left with a feeling that, Okay,

460
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: they got enough information somewhere that they will be able

461
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 1: to solve this in a short time or a reasonable time.

462
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 1: And after that day, the GBA and nobody's ever contacted me.

463
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 1: I think they may have. I know my sister and

464
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 1: my brother have called them, but they've never called me

465
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,440
Speaker 1: or told me, you know, we're still working on this,

466
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,920
Speaker 1: or we've got some leads, or is there anything else

467
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,080
Speaker 1: you can tell me. You've asked me more question and

468
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: they've asked me. Did they record the conversation that took

469
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: place in the car? Not to my knowledge. If he did,

470
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 1: he didn't tell me, but not to my knowledge. He

471
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 1: took him maybe a few notes, but he to my knowledge,

472
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 1: and recording a home. Do you know if he talked

473
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 1: to anyone on the white Man side of the family,

474
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. He didn't tell me, he didn't ask

475
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 1: for he didn't elaborate. I might have been in a

476
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: guardian minute with him. And I've told you or you've

477
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: asked more than he asked me. Did anybody ever tell

478
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 1: you how they were murdered? Not directly that Friday night?

479
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: Because it was large families. Tommy Joe's family was large,

480
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: and they were on Rebecca, and then we lived on

481
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 1: this into the county. My brother lived in another county,

482
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 1: my sister lived in town. So at that time, for

483
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 1: you know, no reason other than the fact that we

484
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: both had large families and lots of friends, and also

485
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: we agreed that that some of the people can meet

486
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,679
Speaker 1: it at my house and some of the people can

487
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: meet at Charles Henry's house. So we met here and

488
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 1: that night, Friday night, the distric attorney our district attorneys

489
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: in another county. He's from Tifton, and the disc attorney

490
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 1: came over to the house and we went upstairs, me

491
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: my sister and my brother, and I believe the sheriff

492
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: was here, and we went up into a room and

493
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: he told us that, you know, they had been murdered.

494
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 1: He told us they had been shot, but he didn't

495
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: give us any other details more than that it was

496
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: a murder case, that they felt like that some marson

497
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 1: was involved in it, and that they were shot. He

498
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: didn't tell us where, He didn't tell us with what

499
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: or nothing like that. You know, I didn't have a

500
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: problem with that. But that's all the information on the

501
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: other information I've gotten is, you know, a little bit

502
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: here and a little bit there, you hear from someone

503
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: people taught that were involved in it. Has anyone in

504
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: law enforcement ever told you what kind of gun was used? No,

505
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,239
Speaker 1: has anyone in law enforcement ever told you where your

506
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: sister was shot? Has anyone in law enforcement ever told

507
00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 1: anybody you know, either of those things I could. And

508
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 1: so people have commented that, you know, and I don't

509
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: know if it's their opinion, are if they have heard

510
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 1: it from some law enforcement, people have commented where they

511
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 1: might have been shock. I know. Finally, I wasn't allowed

512
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,199
Speaker 1: to go up the night of the murder and when

513
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: the fire they were still putting out the fire. But

514
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 1: three or four days later, within a week, we were

515
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: allowed to go up to the house. They said that

516
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: they had done all the investigating they needed to do,

517
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: and so we were allowed to go up to the

518
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: house and you can tell where they had sifted through

519
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: the ash and everything. And I questioned one of the

520
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: law enforcement about, you know, why was this area sifted

521
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 1: through more than other areas. Was that where the bodies

522
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: might have been? And he said, well, that was left

523
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: there for y'all's benefit. I'm sorry said that again. When

524
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: we went into the house, the house was burnt down

525
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: and there was nothing but rubbling ash and you could

526
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: walk through what was left. This was about a week

527
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 1: after the murder. They did say the wires were cut.

528
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 1: I did either. All enforcement are some of the firemen,

529
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,239
Speaker 1: the gay there said that the telephone wires had been

530
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 1: cut to the house. They do know that. I did

531
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: hear that from some from an official line. I couldn't

532
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: say which one. But we were allowed to go up

533
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 1: to the house. And so my brother and my sister

534
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: and some others we went to the house. And I

535
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: did question why did they allow us to go up

536
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: there so soon? Or I thought was soon after the murder,

537
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 1: because I told maybe they would want more time for

538
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: themselves to check and see if I can find any clues.

539
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: But we were allowed to go out there, and you

540
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 1: could tell some areas were it looked like maybe they

541
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: had sifted through the rubble and the ashes more. And

542
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: so I asked a law official, was that were they

543
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: were when they were shot? And he said that. He

544
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: didn't come out and say yes. He said, well, that

545
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: was left there for y'all's benefit. What did you interpret

546
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,479
Speaker 1: that to me? I thought that meant that's where they

547
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: were they were laying. I don't know wine they would

548
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: want us to see where they were laying, but I

549
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: thought that's that was the way of saying yes without

550
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: telling me yes. So if that's the case, can you

551
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: describe for us where the individuals were laying. I think

552
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: one was probably in a living room, one was in

553
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: the hall, and one was in the doorway of a bedroom.

554
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 1: None of this was at the front door. It was

555
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 1: all in the interior of the house. Correct. I had

556
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,480
Speaker 1: been in the house before I had won every time

557
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: of Joe was staying there. I had been a bout

558
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: the house of time or two and been inside the house.

559
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: So one area appeared to be what was the dinner

560
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: living room. One area was in what was the hall

561
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: the house, and you know he had a hall. You

562
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: go down to the three bedrooms. One was area where

563
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: the ashes were sent. It looked like it was in

564
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: the hall, and one appeared to be in the doorway.

565
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: So basically, the law enforcement officers on the scene, without

566
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: telling you directly, they were letting you know that the

567
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: bodies were located inside the house. Well, they weren't there

568
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: when we went. There were no loss or was there

569
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: at the house when we went. We were just told

570
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: we could go and visit the side if we wanted to.

571
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: But a law enforcement official did tell you that those Okay,

572
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: that was a later time. So so basically law enforcement

573
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: told you that the shootings took place inside the residents.

574
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 1: They didn't tell me that. They led me to believe

575
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: that by what telling me that we when I asked

576
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: a question, was that where the bodies were? Then you

577
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: hate to assume, but that's once you assumed, they were

578
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: allowing you to know. That's what you took away from

579
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 1: this is that it happened inside, but the bodies were

580
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: found inside. Law enforcement told you that the telephone wire

581
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: was cut to the residents. If it's a law enforcement

582
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: or one of the firefighters, but one of the officials

583
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: that was there when they were putting out the fire,

584
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 1: whether it was a fireman or whether it was a

585
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 1: volunteer fireman or one of the losses. I don't remember

586
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: which one, but we were told that the phone arts

587
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: hadn't been cut. I couldn't say who, but I was

588
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: also told I asked, I did ask the question. I

589
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: don't remember what law losser or whatever. But the door

590
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: was not locked, and so I know Tim would not

591
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: have opened the door to have told a stranger in

592
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: the middle of the night. I asked one of the fireman,

593
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: I did ask the question, was the doors locked? And

594
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: he said no. So we've got a cut telephone line

595
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: at an unlocked door and bodies located inside. The residents

596
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,560
Speaker 1: that's the information that I've gathered from different ones that

597
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: were the responders that were there at the fire, from

598
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: different responders over time. I didn't get all those answers

599
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: from the same person, but over time, different ones that

600
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: I had talked to that were there was a volunteer

601
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: fireman or whether it was a law officer. Those are

602
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: some things that that would told you mentioned that your

603
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: sister and some others from time to time have contacted

604
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: the gb I about this, K. Do you know if

605
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: the GBI has told them anything? I do not they

606
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: You know, we would talk something, we don't. You know,

607
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: every time I hear something, I don't call them because

608
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: a lot of us hearsay and any time you talk

609
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: with somebody, some of it's something they've heard from two

610
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: or three other sources. So I don't call them every

611
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: time I hear something. They don't call me every time

612
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: that they hear something. But you know, we have we

613
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: do communicate, But I don't know. I couldn't tell you

614
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: what all the g b I has told them. Do

615
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: you have that they have not contacted me and told

616
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: me anything. Do you have the impression that anybody is

617
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: really still working on this case or is it your

618
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: belief that it's probably gathering dust on the files, gathering

619
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: dust somewhere. Sometimes I feel like he's gathering dust because

620
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 1: I haven't heard anything in the g B I, So

621
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if he's any pressure

622
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 1: put on them. They weren't politically involved or sometimes I've

623
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: feld that way, and I don't blame we've had. You know,

624
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: now we're on our third sheriff that's been elected. We

625
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: had a sheriff that was in from for a short

626
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: time between elections. We're on our fore sheriff. And by now,

627
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: you know, it grows cold. And I know the lead

628
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: investigator that was working with the sheriff's department when the

629
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: murder happened, he no longer works with the sheriff's department.

630
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: So I don't know what. You don't know what theories

631
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 1: he had. You don't know what suspicions he had. You

632
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: don't know what evidence he had somebody else, you know,

633
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: they come in. I don't know how much of that

634
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,959
Speaker 1: he passed along. I don't know what theories he might

635
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: have had that he could have been working on. So

636
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: you know, you have to question, where is it getting cold?

637
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: The President sheriff I have talked to and he has

638
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: talked to me, and he has communicated with me. He

639
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 1: told me one time not long ago that he had

640
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: communicated with the g b I and was wanting them

641
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: to get maybe a different set of eyes looking at

642
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: the evidence to see, you know, someone else maybe could

643
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: pick up or see something that the original investing hers

644
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: might not see. Is there anything else that you think

645
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: is important that we haven't talked about, that I've missed,

646
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: that you think might be important. I just want someone to,

647
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: you know, just keep asking questions and keep it current,

648
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: because sooner or later, you know, maybe somebody will say something,

649
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: somebody will remember something. People have a tendency either if

650
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: someone that didn't have a conscious at all, they either

651
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: going to brag about it, or someone has a conscious

652
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: they're gonna feel guilty and want to tell someone maybe

653
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: to get forgiveness. So one or the two. Either they're

654
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: gonna brag about doing it and not getting caught, or

655
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: either they're going to want someone to forgive them because

656
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: their consciousness bothering them. But either way, they're going to

657
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: talk to somebody somewhere sometime, And so we have to

658
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: keep it going and keep it current so that that

659
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: person that hears that vital information will come forward with it. Well,

660
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: what I can tell you is that we've recently come

661
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: across some information that somebody claims to know quite a

662
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: bit about the specific facts of this case, and we've

663
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: passed that onto the g b I. What they do

664
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: with it, I don't know, But what I can tell

665
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: you is that we've come across some information that has

666
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: the potential to solve this case, and we passed it

667
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 1: onto the g b I very recently. Well, I am

668
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: very grateful, and I'm very thankful for what you're doing.

669
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: I'm thankful that you took interest in it and that

670
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: you're bringing it back to light, because that keeps people talking,

671
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: and it keeps it fresh on other people's mind. And

672
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 1: each time we did a let my sheriff, they would

673
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: come and they would ask for my vote, and I

674
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: would ask them to treat the case as though it

675
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: was one of their relatives, meaning that I wouldn't want

676
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: them to just put it in a box and let

677
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 1: it collect dust, but to keep digging at it until

678
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: they found somebody. After speaking with David Wheeler, I thought

679
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 1: more about what I had heard, and I reached back

680
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,280
Speaker 1: out to clarify just a couple of details. I wanted

681
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: to know more about the scene at Charles Henry's house

682
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: the morning of the fire, David wrote to me. When

683
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 1: we arrived at Charles Henry and Diane's home, Charles Henry

684
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: told us Chip was there. So just to keep things

685
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: straight here, Chip Wideman is Charles Henry's adult son who

686
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 1: was married at the time and did not live at

687
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: his parents house. David goes on to say he was

688
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: told Chip had taken a bath and gone to bed.

689
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: That conversation took place at approximately four to four thirty

690
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 1: a m. We did not see Chip until close to

691
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: lunch on Friday. To my knowledge, Charles Henry voluntarily told

692
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: us about Chip. We never asked where he was. David

693
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: also clarified that, according to what he was told at

694
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: the time of the fire, Diane Wideman was in Florida

695
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: along with her son, Chip's wife, visiting Miss Joe, and

696
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 1: that they had been there since the day before the fire,

697
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: which would have been Thursday. We've actually been looking at

698
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 1: the Wideman murders for quite some time now, you see.

699
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 1: When Payne Lindsay, host of our Sister podcast up in

700
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: was in South Georgia investigating the disappearance of Irwin County

701
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,879
Speaker 1: history teacher and beauty queen Tera Grinstead. Someone told paying

702
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 1: some very compelling information about the Wideman murders in nearby Rebecca, Georgia. Later, however,

703
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: when we tried to follow up with this person, he

704
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: didn't have anything to say except for calling us swine. Nevertheless,

705
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 1: we were able to independently corroborate much of what the

706
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 1: caller had initially said the first time. We were able

707
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 1: to corroborate that his ex son in law did in

708
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: fact Diana car crash, and we were able to corroborate

709
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 1: that a close relative of the Wideman murder victims was

710
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: a pallbearer at the funeral following that car crash. So

711
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 1: why the change of heart on behalf of this caller.

712
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 1: That's anyone's guess at this point. But this person's purported

713
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 1: knowledge of the case could well be the key to

714
00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 1: finally solving the Wideman murder case. After fifteen long years,

715
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,399
Speaker 1: just by talking to the community, asking questions and looking

716
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: at publicly available information, we've learned quite a bit about

717
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: this unsolved triple murder. I wonder what would be possible

718
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 1: if the g b I, or even someone like John

719
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: Dawes were to really put their shoulder into this, what

720
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: else might they learn if they redoubled their efforts with

721
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 1: the full investigative capabilities of the State of Georgia. Now

722
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 1: it's important to understand we're not accusing anyone of anything,

723
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 1: but in addition to the phone call that we turned

724
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 1: over to the g b I, which frankly, in my opinion,

725
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 1: has the potential to solve this case entirely, we did

726
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: come across something else that we found interesting and at

727
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 1: a minimum quite odd. Remember, Tommy, Joe and Deborah Wideman

728
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: had a nephew, Charles Wideman the third, also known as

729
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 1: Chip Wideman. According to David Wheeler, Chip and his father Charles,

730
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: were the only ones at Charles Wideman's home on the

731
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 1: morning of the murders. He also mentioned that Chip wasn't

732
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: really anywhere to be seen in the immediate aftermath of

733
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: the fire. I don't know what this means, and we're

734
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,320
Speaker 1: not accusing anyone of anything, but one thing on chips

735
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: Facebook page at the time of this recording really caught

736
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: our attention. It's what is listed as his favorite quote.

737
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: It says three can keep a secret if two are dead.

738
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: We will continue to follow this case in the future

739
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: and plan to come out with more episodes in a

740
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: few months, so please, if you have any information at

741
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 1: all about this case, contact the Georgia Bureau of Investigation.

742
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,879
Speaker 1: You can also contact us directly at Sworn tips at

743
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. Sworn is produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta.

744
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: Story and production by Payne Lindsay, Mason Lindsay and Meredith

745
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: Steadman and myself Philip Holloway. Sound designed by Pine Lindsay,

746
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: Executive producers Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. Mixed and mastered

747
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:09,399
Speaker 1: by Resonate Recordings. Also, if you haven't yet, please check

748
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 1: out our sister podcast, Up and Vanished that follows the

749
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: investigation into the disappearance of Georgia High School teacher and

750
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 1: beauty queen Tara Grinstead ven Vanished is available now on

751
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening. This is Philip Holloway and

752
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: I'll see you next time on Sword