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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 4: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones. Hey, how are.

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Speaker 4: You ay, Kate? I'm doing great. How's it going?

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Speaker 1: It's going well.

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Speaker 2: It feels like it's been forever, but it really hasn't.

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Speaker 3: No, you know, but I've got my drink here, and

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Speaker 3: even though it's in a bourbon glass, do you have

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Speaker 3: any idea what this drink might be?

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Speaker 1: It looks like some sort of protein something or other.

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Speaker 4: It's kava.

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Speaker 1: This is your calming, right.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: I have found that when I drink kava, I don't

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Speaker 3: have the you know, the craving to drink the hard bourbon.

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Speaker 3: So it's a way to help control the amount of

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Speaker 3: alcohol intake.

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Speaker 4: I've started.

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Speaker 2: Well, I know one of the things that you like

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Speaker 2: to do is exercise, which I love that about you.

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Speaker 2: I think it's so good that that's one of your

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Speaker 2: big releases. And you told me that you do some

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Speaker 2: hikes with your rock star dog, Cora, which.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know I have.

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Speaker 3: You know, my wife does a lot of hikes with Cora.

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Speaker 3: You know, Cora will hike, but she you know, she's

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Speaker 3: getting older. But what's amazing is her energy level on

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Speaker 3: how high it goes up in the wintertime. She is

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Speaker 3: a cold weather dog. In the summer, she drags, you know.

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Speaker 3: So that's just what she likes. And that's it's funny

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Speaker 3: because you think, okay, she's she's done going outside for walks,

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Speaker 3: she's just getting too old, and then the temperatures drop

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Speaker 3: and then she's out there pulling you and you know,

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Speaker 3: rolling around in the snow and everything else. So that's

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Speaker 3: you know, the way her body is set up, I guess.

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Speaker 1: And she's a good natured dog.

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Speaker 2: I can't imagine I see you with a pretty laid

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Speaker 2: back Cora get in the jeep kind of dog because

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Speaker 2: I've been in your jeep and there's dog hair, so

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Speaker 2: I know Cora's in the jeep.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes you know what, Cora doesn't fit in my jeep

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Speaker 3: with everything that I've got in it.

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Speaker 1: Where's all that dog hair?

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Speaker 3: This?

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Speaker 2: Ye?

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Speaker 1: Now, I'm going to see us side this.

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Speaker 3: It's coming from my feet. This is what we call

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Speaker 3: secondary and tertiary transfer. And I use that as an

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Speaker 3: example when I talk to like Citizens Academy in terms

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Speaker 3: of you know who has you know, pets at home,

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Speaker 3: and then you see the dog hares in your vehicle, Well,

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Speaker 3: think about the number of those dogs cares that are

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Speaker 3: now in the classroom where you're sitting. I, as a

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Speaker 3: CSI will be looking for that type of evidence, but

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Speaker 3: it doesn't necessarily mean that I can place you in

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Speaker 3: an environment when I find that type of evidence, because

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Speaker 3: it can be due to tertiary transfer.

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Speaker 2: I can't believe that you are turning our casual pet

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Speaker 2: talk into a lesson on forensics.

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Speaker 1: But I'm going to tell you this.

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Speaker 2: My dog would stump you because she's part poodle and

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Speaker 2: she doesn't shed one little bit. So what would you

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Speaker 2: do in a situation where you have to rely on

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Speaker 2: a canine or a feline hair, and then you encounter

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Speaker 2: Ruby Red Dawson.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you would do.

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Speaker 4: It all depends on the circumstances.

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Speaker 2: She doesn't pause, so you could do. I wonder what

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Speaker 2: all prints would be like? Can you identify a dog

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Speaker 2: or a cat based on the size of the prince?

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Speaker 3: Well, in terms of the paw prince, you could most

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Speaker 3: certainly take a look and kind of enter compare to

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Speaker 3: see if you know, let's say a suspects pet falls

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Speaker 3: within the rain of the prints that are found or

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Speaker 3: the impressions that are found. I imagine that the pads

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Speaker 3: on dogs have there may be some uniqueness to them

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Speaker 3: to where now that kind of detail is recorded, I

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Speaker 3: would be looking at that see if there's any individualizing characteristics.

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Speaker 3: But in no way would I ever want to go

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Speaker 3: and say this dog and this dog alone. I would

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Speaker 3: just say, based on the evidence found out a scene,

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Speaker 3: the suspects pet falls within the range of characteristics.

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Speaker 4: It's not a smaller dog, it's not a much larger dog.

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Speaker 4: It's just within the range.

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Speaker 3: Okay, But that's where you put that type of thing,

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Speaker 3: the evidence photo and then the exemplar the standard from

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Speaker 3: the pet, and you show it side by side and say,

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Speaker 3: you know, look for yourself, you.

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Speaker 1: Are killing our pet.

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Speaker 2: Talk right now, of course, seems really well behaved.

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Speaker 1: My dog is not.

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Speaker 4: Oh really now, Ruby is or she is.

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Speaker 2: The best and the worst dog on the planet. She is.

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Speaker 2: I mean to say poorly trained would be to make

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Speaker 2: the assumption that we trained her at all.

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Speaker 1: We didn't trainer at all.

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Speaker 4: Oh okay, she.

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Speaker 2: Is living in a democracy where I think most people

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Speaker 2: have their pets live with a benevolent dictatorship. Ruby does

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Speaker 2: what she wants to do, and she's sweet and adorable,

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Speaker 2: but she does really whatever the hell she wants to do.

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Speaker 1: So you'll probably hear a lot about her in.

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Speaker 2: The coming months because we're getting a puppy, which is

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Speaker 2: a bad decision, I think, because now we're gonna have

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Speaker 2: two really.

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Speaker 1: Badly behaved dogs on just one. They jump and goose

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Speaker 1: people and it's terrible.

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Speaker 4: How old is Ruby Red?

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Speaker 2: She is almost three, okay, but she looks like a

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Speaker 2: teddy bear and she's adorable. But I think we have

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Speaker 2: lost her as far as training. I think we now

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Speaker 2: have a problem child.

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Speaker 4: Oh.

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Speaker 3: You probably could get some training in her, but it

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Speaker 3: sounds like she's a fun dog.

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Speaker 2: She is a fun dog and she's fun to exercise with.

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Speaker 2: But I mean, unlike Cora, she's got these short little legs,

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Speaker 2: so she poops out pretty quickly, especially in.

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Speaker 1: The Texas heat.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well that's a good.

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Speaker 2: Transition because our story takes place in a hot, rural area.

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Speaker 2: And before we get into it, I just want to

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Speaker 2: mention that this is a case that involves someone who

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Speaker 2: is a person of color, and those are underrepresented stories

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Speaker 2: in general. You know, something we strive for on this

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Speaker 2: show is really to bring cases in that represent everybody.

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Speaker 2: And I will say it's really difficult to find people

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Speaker 2: of color in crime history because it was so underreported.

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Speaker 2: The media and law enforcement didn't care many times in

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Speaker 2: the eighteen hundreds or early nineteen hundreds, and certainly not

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Speaker 2: the seventeen hundreds, when someone was murdered, they cared if

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Speaker 2: they did the murdering. So I'm working really hard to

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Speaker 2: find us those kinds of stories because it's important.

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Speaker 3: Well it is, and I can understand how hard it

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Speaker 3: would be because if law enforcements not generating case files,

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Speaker 3: nobody's being.

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Speaker 4: Brought to trial.

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Speaker 3: You're not getting the documents to be able to get

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Speaker 3: the facts in order to understand what happened. But hopefully

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Speaker 3: as you uncover cases, we will cover them on this

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Speaker 3: show exactly.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about this case.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that I want you to think

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Speaker 2: as you're hearing this story is the challenge that people

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Speaker 2: have as investigators assessing a crime scene that is in

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Speaker 2: the open, in the wild, in the wilderness, because I've

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Speaker 2: heard it can be quite a challenge. And this is

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Speaker 2: in your old stomping ground. So let's not talk any

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Speaker 2: more about it, because right now I just want to

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Speaker 2: set the scene. So, Paul, this is in your home

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Speaker 2: state of California. This is Eureka, Okay, Eureka, California. I've

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Speaker 2: never been to Eureka. Do you know much about Eureka?

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Speaker 3: Now, No, you know, I've never been to Eureka. I've

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Speaker 3: stayed in several of the towns up in the northern

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Speaker 3: coast in California, such as Mendocino, Fort Bragg.

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Speaker 4: Eureka's further north.

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Speaker 3: You know my understanding it was a big fishing and

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Speaker 3: lumber community.

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Speaker 4: Probably still is.

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Speaker 3: But the northern coast of California is very different than

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Speaker 3: the southern California beaches. It's very rugged. Way back is impressive.

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Speaker 3: It is absolutely gorgeous, and this.

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Speaker 2: Is an area that I think a lot of people

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Speaker 2: now and then we're talking about nineteen twenty five, we're

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Speaker 2: attracted to They wanted to go to see the scenery

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Speaker 2: that you're mentioning here. So this is the Roaring twenties.

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Speaker 2: Because you know, I always have to talk about history.

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Speaker 2: This is the Roaring twenties, and the Roaring Twenties is

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Speaker 2: smacked in between the Great Depression, which was twenty nine

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Speaker 2: thirty and Prohibition, really the beginning of heavy heavy crime,

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Speaker 2: which was early nineteen twenties, so around nineteen twenty five.

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Speaker 2: I write about this a lot in my books is

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Speaker 2: the Roaring twenties where Gatsby, you know, you're reading about

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Speaker 2: Jay Gatsby, and you're reading about all of the money

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Speaker 2: and banks and businesses are giving away money left and right,

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Speaker 2: and there's a lot of affluence. If you had any

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Speaker 2: kind of hair brain scheme, you could probably get a

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Speaker 2: loan for it, and this would eventually lead to the

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Speaker 2: Great Depression. We also have flappers, the beautiful women, We

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Speaker 2: have the Harlem Renaissance. There's a lot of culture happening

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Speaker 2: this part of California, Eureka, California. The economy is going

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Speaker 2: really well and there are a lot of people who

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Speaker 2: are exploring these rural areas. And the two people who

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Speaker 2: were centering the story on are a twenty one year

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Speaker 2: old man named Henry Sweet and his teen girlfriend, who

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Speaker 2: is Carmen Wagner. There's discrepancy about how old she was,

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Speaker 2: but it sounds like seventeen or eighteen, and Henry was

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Speaker 2: twenty one in October seventh, nineteen twenty five. They decided

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Speaker 2: that they were going to go to the rugged hills

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Speaker 2: of Coyote Flat, And in a minute, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: show you that because it's important as a crime scene,

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Speaker 2: and one of the things that makes it more difficult

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Speaker 2: is when you don't know a lot about the victims.

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Speaker 2: So i'll just have a little spoiler alert. The victims

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Speaker 2: are going to be Henry Sweet and Carmen Wagner. When

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Speaker 2: I first started reading about this and I thought, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's a couple and they're going off into the wilderness

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Speaker 2: and somebody's not going to come back out, it's actually.

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Speaker 1: Both of them.

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Speaker 2: And this is a very very cold case and something

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Speaker 2: that is still up in the and this is less

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Speaker 2: about who killed them and more about who was a suspect.

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Speaker 2: So let's get to the story. They take their dog.

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Speaker 2: We've been talking about dogs. They take their cute dog

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Speaker 2: was a college named Pronto, which is a great name.

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Speaker 2: I ever name another dog, I think Pronto would be

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Speaker 2: the top of the list.

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Speaker 1: I love it.

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Speaker 2: Pronto came along and they were just going to go

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Speaker 2: on a hunting trip. And again not much known about

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Speaker 2: these two. It looks like that Carmen worked at a

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Speaker 2: beauty parlor and totally not surprising, the press and the

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Speaker 2: twenties focused on her looks.

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Speaker 1: She was apparently really beautiful.

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Speaker 2: And Henry sweet like a lot of young men dabbled

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Speaker 2: in bootlegging. So bootlegging was a pretty dangerous business in

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Speaker 2: the twenties. Literally dangerous, like you could blow yourself up

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Speaker 2: if you didn't know what you were doing, and dangerous

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Speaker 2: with a kind of people that were attracted to bootlegging.

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Speaker 3: So this is during the prohibition time, and of course

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Speaker 3: this alcohol is going to have value, and so whoever

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Speaker 3: has a supply of alcohol, it's just like having a

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Speaker 3: supply of cash, they're going to be a target because

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Speaker 3: they have something valuable with them that can be taken

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Speaker 3: away from them. So now you have other criminals possibly

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Speaker 3: take a life in order to gain this alcohol. But

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Speaker 3: then you also have law enforcement that you're trying to avoid.

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Speaker 3: So it really is a double edged sword for somebody

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Speaker 3: who is in that game.

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Speaker 2: And oftentimes these bootleggers didn't have money to begin with,

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Speaker 2: and so they would have.

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Speaker 1: To borrow money. I mean, this was not a cheap endeavor.

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Speaker 2: You actually had to create alcohol and it involved a

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Speaker 2: bunch of equipment, and so they would have to borrow

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Speaker 2: money and then promise to repay it, and then sometimes

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Speaker 2: they wouldn't and there would be bootleg alcohol buried all over.

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Speaker 1: The beaches of California.

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Speaker 2: Oh, right down the coast. Yeah, it's like buried treasure.

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Speaker 2: I mean they would bury alcohol. Uh Okay, So that

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Speaker 2: adds a little bit of a layer of oh boy,

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Speaker 2: what's going to happen to these two people and what

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Speaker 2: is the motive behind? So I'm assuming anytime we're involving

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Speaker 2: an illegal enterprise, it makes things more complicated for the

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Speaker 2: investigator because your list of suspects has to be expanded

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Speaker 2: out from the inner circle the personal relationships.

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Speaker 3: Yes, now their activity brings in a suspect pool that

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Speaker 3: can be potentially very large, because now you have many

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Speaker 3: individuals that could gain from the homicide.

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Speaker 2: Now, this is something that I find so interesting about

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Speaker 2: the time period, and you'll see a delay in a

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Speaker 2: reaction that shocked me at first, and then I thought about, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is nineteen twenty five. So they leave on October seventh,

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Speaker 2: nice cool night, nineteen twenty five.

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Speaker 1: They go out to Coyote Flat and they don't come

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Speaker 1: back home.

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Speaker 2: They're supposed to go back to Eureka, which is fifty

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Speaker 2: miles southeast of where they were supposed.

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Speaker 1: To be, So they were going to go back.

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Speaker 2: They were just going to go on a little hunting

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Speaker 2: trip with Pronto together, and then they were going to

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Speaker 2: return the next day, and they didn't. So the families

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Speaker 2: are alarmed and they contact the police, and it takes

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Speaker 2: about five days for search parties to go out to

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Speaker 2: this area Coyote Flat, to go search for them. And

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Speaker 2: at first I thought five days, that's a lot, and

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Speaker 2: I know that they're eighteen and twenty one in their adults,

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Speaker 2: But then I thought, boy, without cell phones and email

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Speaker 2: and all of that, it must have taken investigators a

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Speaker 2: long time. They have to travel to the person's home,

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Speaker 2: they have to gather evidence, they have to organize the

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Speaker 2: search party, and this is all encumbered by the fact

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Speaker 2: that you don't have cell phones.

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Speaker 1: This is land dialing and that's it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot of leg work there, and chances

286
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Speaker 3: are the local authorities didn't have a formal search and

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Speaker 3: rescue team like we have today, So now they're having

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Speaker 3: to take standard law enforcement officers as well as volunteers

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Speaker 3: out of the community in order to gather the resources

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Speaker 3: that would be needed to go out and look for

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Speaker 3: this missing couple.

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Speaker 2: So the police are out, they have all these search parties,

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Speaker 2: and the searchers finally find after four days and Carmen

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Speaker 2: Wagner is not with him. Okay, So Henry's sweet is

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Speaker 2: on the property of an empty cabin on Coyote Flat.

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Speaker 2: So let me take a moment and show you exactly

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Speaker 2: where they're searching.

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Speaker 3: Okay, I'm surprised looking at this because this is up

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Speaker 3: you know, in northern coastal California, Humboldt County, which is

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Speaker 3: very forested, you know, redwood trees and everything else, and

301
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Speaker 3: I'm looking at something that looks like the middle of Nevada. Yeah. So, yeah, no,

302
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Speaker 3: I'm surprised at this location, and I have some questions

303
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Speaker 3: about the actual location, but I'll let you keep going

304
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Speaker 3: and then maybe I'll start weighing in on some stuff.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

306
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Speaker 2: So Henry Sweet is found and he is on the property.

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Speaker 2: He's not in this cabin, this empty cabin. He's outside

308
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Speaker 2: of it. He's on a road and he was sprawled

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Speaker 2: out on the road near his car, which was a

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Speaker 2: very sporty roadster. We talk a lot about cars from

311
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:53,880
Speaker 2: the twenties and the thirties on this show, so this

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Speaker 2: was a little roadster. And they examine him and at

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Speaker 2: first they see what they think is blood stains on

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Speaker 2: his mouth, particularly also on his side, but without doing

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Speaker 2: an examination at first, they had wondered, because of the

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Speaker 2: blood stains on his mouth this is a quote, they

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Speaker 2: thought he had died from a violent hemorrhage caused by

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Speaker 2: lifting a heavy deer.

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Speaker 1: So why would that have happened?

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Speaker 2: They thought bleeding from the mouth meant that he had

321
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Speaker 2: exerted himself, as my understanding from that line, almost.

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Speaker 3: As if the strain had caused maybe an anorysm maybe yeah,

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Speaker 3: to a point that would cause oral bleeding.

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Speaker 1: There's blood underneath him.

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Speaker 2: The medical examiner took him back while they were continuing

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Speaker 2: to search for Carmen. He took him back and he

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Speaker 2: examined him, and the official cause of death was that

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Speaker 2: he was shot in the back multiple times with a rifle. Oh,

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Speaker 2: I know what a shotgune blast would do. Is a

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Speaker 2: rifle going to give you tiny holes? Or I guess

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Speaker 2: it depends on the cartridge and the size of the

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Speaker 2: gun or what.

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Speaker 3: There's so many factors that come into play in terms

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Speaker 3: of the types of wounds and the wound ballistics from firearms,

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Speaker 3: and part of it is going to be the distance

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Speaker 3: between the gun and the body. A lot of it

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Speaker 3: does come down to the velocity of the round.

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Speaker 4: Higher speed or higher.

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Speaker 3: Velocity bullets, they can pass through the tissue inside the

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Speaker 3: body at such a high rate of speed that they

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Speaker 3: actually force the tissue violently outwards. And so now you

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Speaker 3: have almost an inner explosive aspect as that tissue expands

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Speaker 3: violently outward. And you see that in the Kennedy assassination,

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Speaker 3: where now you have a rifle round going through Kennedy's

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Speaker 3: head and you see the right side of his skull

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Speaker 3: basically blown out. Well, that's the round, a higher velocity round.

347
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Speaker 3: That's passing into his brain tissue, and that brain tissue

348
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Speaker 3: expands outwards. Rifles generally are going to be higher velocity rounds.

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Speaker 3: The entry side can look relatively small, very clean looking. Internally,

350
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Speaker 3: there could be a lot of damage due to the

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Speaker 3: high velocity, this kinetic energy that is being passed on

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Speaker 3: to the tissues internally, but I would also expect that

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Speaker 3: with a rifle around those exit wounds can be pretty significant.

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Speaker 2: It'll be interesting because they're going to locate Carmen really

355
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Speaker 2: soon and she has similar injuries. But they had an

356
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Speaker 2: interesting note about the bullet. Okay, So Henry is with

357
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Speaker 2: the medical examiner and they continue to search for Carmen

358
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Speaker 2: and they haven't found her. And this is what's going

359
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Speaker 2: to be interesting. I want your thoughts on profiling in

360
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Speaker 2: this perpetrator. So I told you that Henry Sweet, her boyfriend,

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Speaker 2: the twenty one year old young man, was found sprawled out,

362
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Speaker 2: shot in the back with a rifle next to his car.

363
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Speaker 2: Carmen and her dog were missing. So they continue to look.

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Speaker 2: The public interest grows and grows and grows. It was

365
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Speaker 2: this big who done it, of course, in the newspapers,

366
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Speaker 2: and we know that newspapers in the twenties. The Heirst

367
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Speaker 2: papers love that, so they finally find her body two

368
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Speaker 2: weeks later.

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Speaker 1: Oh, so this is what's interesting.

370
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Speaker 2: She is buried in a shallow grave, and she is

371
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Speaker 2: a few miles away from where Henry Sweet was. So

372
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Speaker 2: you have one victim, the male who is left sprawled

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Speaker 2: out by his car, and then the female has been taken.

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Speaker 2: And before you ask, her body was so decomposed that

375
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Speaker 2: they couldn't do an examination.

376
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Speaker 1: For sexual assault, which I'm sure you.

377
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Speaker 2: Could assume is a problem because she's been buried for

378
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Speaker 2: three weeks after she had first gone missing.

379
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Speaker 4: Oh, so many questions.

380
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Speaker 1: I know, I know, I hope I have at least

381
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Speaker 1: some of the answers.

382
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Speaker 4: So Carmen's in a shallow grave.

383
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Speaker 1: Yep, advanced state of decomposition.

384
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Speaker 3: Was there any active insect infestation on her body at

385
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Speaker 3: the time.

386
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Speaker 2: No, My notes just say a very advanced state of

387
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Speaker 2: decomposition where I think they used her clothing to identify her.

388
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,159
Speaker 2: They found her on October twenty third, buried in this

389
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Speaker 2: shallow grave. She had gone missing October seventh, So that

390
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,520
Speaker 2: is more than two weeks.

391
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Speaker 3: If I'm looking at this case and I'm the one

392
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,159
Speaker 3: that is assessing this shallow grave. In the state of

393
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,000
Speaker 3: her remains, I'm looking for evidence. Is this consistent with

394
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,520
Speaker 3: the length of time since she went missing, as if

395
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,399
Speaker 3: she was killed the same day, And is there any

396
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,480
Speaker 3: indicators to indicate that she had been killed elsewhere, left

397
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Speaker 3: on the surface, or had been kept before her body

398
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:44,800
Speaker 3: was buried? Insects can possibly tell me that information. Depending

399
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,880
Speaker 3: on how advanced the decomposition is, there may still be

400
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,240
Speaker 3: indicators of body movement since the time of death. Even

401
00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:59,360
Speaker 3: blood flows can possibly show movement after the bleeding had started.

402
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,879
Speaker 3: And it's going to be dependent upon the circumstances. But

403
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,760
Speaker 3: right now I'm going to take it that you're telling

404
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,320
Speaker 3: me that the authorities are saying that everything is consistent

405
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,800
Speaker 3: that she was killed either on the day or shortly

406
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Speaker 3: thereafter after she went missing.

407
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Speaker 1: That's what they believe.

408
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,080
Speaker 2: So she was buried, her dog Pronto was shot and

409
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,600
Speaker 2: killed laying nearby. Carmen was shot and killed. And let

410
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 2: me tell you about this autopsy. So Carmen was shot twice,

411
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:29,600
Speaker 2: and they retrieved a bullet because it was in the

412
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 2: grave with or one of them was, and it was

413
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Speaker 2: two through and through.

414
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Speaker 1: It's just like you had thought with a rifle.

415
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,520
Speaker 2: She was shot twice, once near her left ear, with

416
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,399
Speaker 2: the bullet exiting near her right ear. Okay, so is

417
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,200
Speaker 2: that the base No where would that go through right

418
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 2: through ear to ear almost except below?

419
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,119
Speaker 3: Well, based on that description without any measurements, because typically

420
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 3: a pathologist will use the apex of the skull and

421
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,639
Speaker 3: measure from the top of the head the entries you know,

422
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,879
Speaker 3: five inches, the exits senches, and then of course there's

423
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,880
Speaker 3: right and left deviations. You know, they take multiple measurements

424
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 3: to accurately place the entry and exit wounds on the body.

425
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 3: Here just you know, left ear to right ear. That

426
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 3: could be above both ears. And now it's passing through

427
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 3: the skull, passing through the brain. But imagine a shot

428
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,160
Speaker 3: that's beneath the left and right ears, let's say, underneath

429
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,359
Speaker 3: the lobes of the ears. That is possible for that

430
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,879
Speaker 3: shot not to enter the inner part of the cranium

431
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:35,399
Speaker 3: at all. Really, yes, So now the question is would

432
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Speaker 3: that shot be a fatal wound?

433
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,800
Speaker 2: Well, and there's one more shot to account for. So

434
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 2: the second bullet entered the left side of her neck,

435
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 2: which sounds like below the first shot below her jaw,

436
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 2: and exited again by her right ear. So it looks

437
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,959
Speaker 2: like he took two quick shots and she was probably

438
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 2: moving the whole time when you think maybe on the run.

439
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 3: Well, now you're saying that one of the projectiles was

440
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 3: recovered in the grave.

441
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:03,680
Speaker 1: M hmm.

442
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:08,360
Speaker 3: Okay, So unless that bullet was trapped somehow on her

443
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 3: body after she was shot, and then it came off

444
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,440
Speaker 3: and was deposited into the grave, because sometimes bullets will

445
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,240
Speaker 3: exit and then be trapped in the clothing or in

446
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,639
Speaker 3: the hair mass. I'm also wondering, was she placed in

447
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 3: the grave and then shot twice?

448
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 2: I messed up, Paul, So you're right, I messed up

449
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:30,879
Speaker 2: in my notes. So even though both of these bullets exited,

450
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,040
Speaker 2: the doctor who performed the autopsy retrieved a bullet from

451
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 2: her body, Okay, And I guess I assumed that that

452
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:38,640
Speaker 2: was out.

453
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: But you're right now that you're saying the story.

454
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 2: Now that you're saying, well, was she shot in the grave,

455
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 2: that doesn't make much sense to me. So what would

456
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 2: that note mean? It got caught in her hair, He

457
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,919
Speaker 2: got it off her body, but that doesn't mean it

458
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:52,880
Speaker 2: was caught inside her body.

459
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 1: Is that right?

460
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 3: So the pathologist said that she has two entries and

461
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 3: two exits.

462
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 1: Correct, but he recovered one bullet.

463
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 4: And so now it's really where is he finding it?

464
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 3: Because you can have a bullet that is starting to

465
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 3: emerge out of the skin from the exit wound, but

466
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 3: if the skin has clothing over it, if it has

467
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 3: hair over it, if it's laying on a surface, you

468
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 3: get what's called a shored exit.

469
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 4: It's kind of kept right there.

470
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 3: And so the bullet has basically as it passes through

471
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,199
Speaker 3: the body, it's expended all of its energy. You know,

472
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 3: it's slowing down, but it has just enough energy to

473
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 3: start to push through the skin. But then the hair,

474
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 3: the fabric or another surface at that part of the body,

475
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 3: and it's going to be her head on the right side,

476
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 3: it doesn't have enough energy to get all the way out,

477
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 3: or it gets all the way out and it just

478
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 3: gets trapped because now it's a slow moving object and

479
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 3: it just can't continue to penetrate through whatever is preventing

480
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 3: it from moving further. On Versus, let's say she's upright

481
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 3: and it passes completely through her skull, exits out, and

482
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 3: it could go into its has a lot of energy.

483
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 3: It could still go it to never neverland and that

484
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 3: one would never have been recovered. But he only recovers one.

485
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 3: He doesn't recover a second one.

486
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,360
Speaker 1: That's my understanding. Okay, so what does this still mean?

487
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,280
Speaker 2: If you've got two bullets sounds like pretty close together

488
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 2: in her head and neck, what would one have hit

489
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 2: an artery?

490
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 1: Is that what would have killed her?

491
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 3: There's so many structures, you know, most certainly as a

492
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 3: bullet passes through the skull, there's multiple different types of arteries.

493
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 4: I mean, you have, let's say the left neck wound.

494
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 3: This bullet could have you know, penetrated the jugular, the corot,

495
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 3: it it could have gone up into the brain itself

496
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 3: and the arteries in the brain. It's penetrating through the

497
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 3: brain tissue, Does it go through the vertebrate, does it

498
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 3: take out the spine at the base of the skull?

499
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 3: You know, so it all depends on the trajectory. And

500
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,880
Speaker 3: this is what pathologists are tasked with. They're not just saying, oh,

501
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 3: the bullet entered here and exited there. They're also in

502
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 3: their reports detailing the inner structures that the bullet is

503
00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 3: passing through, and this helps them form the opitu and yes,

504
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 3: this bullet hit a vital aspect of the body, and

505
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 3: this could be a fatal shot in and of itself

506
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 3: versus you can be shot in many parts of your

507
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 3: body and just the damage that that bullet does is

508
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 3: not going to be fatal. Yeah, just by the damage

509
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 3: it does.

510
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 2: So we don't have an answer based on those two

511
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 2: wounds and the trajectory whether this was a quick death

512
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 2: or a slow, painful bleedout for her.

513
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: Is there a likely scenario?

514
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 3: The likely scenario based on you know, where these two

515
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,679
Speaker 3: shots are, is that she was incapacitated and died very quickly.

516
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 4: I think that's the most likely scenario.

517
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 2: Okay, So he kills her, he buries her same gun.

518
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 2: Now this is where the story changes, because in my opinion,

519
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 2: the least interesting part of the story is the murder.

520
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 2: What happens after is what's really really interesting to me.

521
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 4: Okay.

522
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 2: So the medical examiner of the pathologist pulls the bullet

523
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 2: and the only way he describes it as a lead

524
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 2: pellet with and individual markings, So he couldn't say what

525
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 2: it sounds like either strange striations he wasn't used to

526
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: seeing or maybe customize bullets, but it wasn't something that

527
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,280
Speaker 2: he immediately looked at and said, oh, this is a

528
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 2: twenty two or whatever.

529
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: He thought it was pretty unusual.

530
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 2: And that is actually kind of key, even though I

531
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 2: know we have very vague information that becomes key.

532
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 1: Later on to law enforcement.

533
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 2: Okay, so this case turns into a very racially charged

534
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 2: case because the police say, this bullet seems to be

535
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 2: sort of ornamental, not a bullet that you would use

536
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 2: a hunter would go out and use, sort of like

537
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 2: what someone in they would call Indian territory, but of

538
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 2: course now we say Native American would use. And they

539
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 2: begin to target a particular man who was Native American

540
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 2: and plain a little bit more about that. So the

541
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 2: media is trying to gather information, and the police come

542
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 2: out there, police who are not very well versed in

543
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 2: a lot of things, including investigating other cultures, and they

544
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 2: put forth a theory that the district attorney talks a

545
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 2: little bit about that Carmen, the woman, had been offered

546
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 2: as a blood sacrifice at what they perceived to be

547
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 2: her grave site was a mystic shrine that observers saw.

548
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 2: There were tree trunks nearby, and there was some bark.

549
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 2: And the way it was arranged is that it was

550
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: arranged by quote unquote Indians who wanted to sacrifice a

551
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 2: beautiful white woman, and so one of the things was

552
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 2: this bullet with the strange markings. They're connecting to local

553
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 2: Native Americans who would have been in California at that time,

554
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 2: and they start looking at suspects and turn on one

555
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 2: of them.

556
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 1: What do you think about that.

557
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 3: I'm looking at the injuries in terms of assessing the

558
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 3: injuries mentally, and she's been shot twice in the head.

559
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 4: For me, that sounds like an execution.

560
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't sound like there's anything ritualistic about the

561
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 3: manner of homicide. Now, if there's a ritualistic aspect, I

562
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 3: would imagine that there would be something a little bit

563
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 3: more significant that would stand out. I don't know anything

564
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 3: about the Native American's culture. I've never heard of performing

565
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 3: these types of ritualistic sacrifices, but I have no knowledge

566
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 3: on it.

567
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 4: It's just not something that I've ever heard of.

568
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 1: Yeah.

569
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 4: The only thing that is really.

570
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 3: Perplexing right now, it's like, well, what are they seeing

571
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 3: on this leaden pellet? What are this strange and individual markings?

572
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 3: You know? My initial thought was, well, they're dealing with

573
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 3: a rifled black powder weapon. Yeah, and maybe this was

574
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 3: something that this pathologist do. We know it wasn't even

575
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 3: a pathologist that did the autopsy.

576
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 2: It was a pathologist, but it could have been a

577
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: Civil War relic that he had ever seen before. You know,

578
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 2: pathologists are not ballistics experts, so who knows?

579
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: You could have been homemade. Can't you make your own bullets?

580
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 3: You absolutely can. You can make your own guns. So

581
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 3: this is where strange and individual marketing is. Okay, Well,

582
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 3: if I don't have a photo to say, oh, these

583
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 3: are just landing groove impressions from inside a rifled barrel.

584
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 4: This is what we typically see.

585
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 3: But maybe it's on a round pellet from a black

586
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 3: powder weapon. And that's throwing this pathologist off or questioning

587
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 3: the competence of the pathologist. You know, it's like, well,

588
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 3: maybe he doesn't handle homicides much, he doesn't know guns much,

589
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 3: and now he's dealing with something where he goes, well,

590
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 3: I've never seen this, and so he's just reverting to

591
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 3: a descriptor and investigators are now running with this as

592
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 3: being okay, this is something that is very unusual.

593
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 4: So this is a clue as to who our fender is.

594
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: Yep.

595
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 3: And to conclude based on what you've told me so far,

596
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 3: that there's a ritualistic aspect to it. I'm very skeptical

597
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 3: about that at this moment in time.

598
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: I agree.

599
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 2: I don't know much about whatever accusations wrogans Native Americans.

600
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 2: I do know in the nineteen twenties that racism and

601
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 2: xenophobia were incredibly rampant. So this was something that the

602
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: press in particular and local law enforcement latched onto. So

603
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: they start looking at not the inner circle, like who

604
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 2: would have followed them fifty miles to kill them, jealous boyfriend,

605
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 2: jealous girlfriend, any of that. They start looking at the

606
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 2: people in the area closest to where their bodies were found.

607
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 2: And there was a searcher who was Native American on

608
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 2: his mother's side, and they started saying something terrible in

609
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 2: the press. They kept calling his name was Jack Ryan,

610
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 2: and they kept calling him a half breed. So he

611
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: was in the search party. And he also briefly knew

612
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: Carmen Wagner in school in Eureka, so he had been

613
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 2: a ranch hand along.

614
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: With his brother, Walter David. And these are two young men.

615
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 2: Jack Ryan's twenty one, Walter's around that same age. So

616
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: something starts to make sin to me in that this

617
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 2: is someone who had a connection to at least one

618
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 2: of the victims. And it sounds like the victim who

619
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 2: was actually targeted because she was buried right, not shot

620
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 2: and left willy nilly. It sounds like maybe he encountered.

621
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 2: The killer encountered the two of them, shot Henry sweet

622
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 2: and then took Carmen for we don't know what reason.

623
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 4: No, you know, we don't have that.

624
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 3: But in all likelihood, based on this set of circumstances,

625
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 3: the males eliminated Carmen is taken remotely. This is for

626
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 3: a sexual assault homicide. That would be my presumption until

627
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 3: I'll proven otherwise. Based on this set of facts, I

628
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 3: do have a question. Though Carmen and Henry went out

629
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 3: there to hunt, did they have a gun with them?

630
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: Doesn't sound like it.

631
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 2: It sounds like it was supposed to be a hunting trip,

632
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: but they never recovered a weapon, and they never recovered

633
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,959
Speaker 2: this weapon. He didn't bring a rifle and the bullet

634
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 2: wouldn't have matched, So it wasn't like the killer took

635
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 2: their gun and used the gun against him. This was

636
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 2: the killer's gun and neither weapon had been recovered.

637
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: If Henry had a gun at all.

638
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 2: So they are focused in on Jack Ryan and his

639
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 2: brother Walter David, and these are both kind of outdoor men.

640
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 2: They worked on ranches, they were both part Native American,

641
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 2: and the suspicion continued to grow that they had done

642
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 2: something to Carmen Wagner and Henry Sweet because who else

643
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 2: would have done it? This was their best shot. The

644
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: sacrifice part, I think had been dismissed pretty quickly, but

645
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: that was an interesting illustration of just how racist things

646
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: were in the nineteen twenties that that was immediately The

647
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: assumption is at a couple of trees and some bark

648
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 2: was a altar for sacrifice for Native Americans. So Jack

649
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 2: Ryan does have a very small connection, and I think

650
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 2: the assumption was that they saw these two young people

651
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: on the roadster. Jack Ryan recognized Carmen. They're in the

652
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: middle of nowhere. Nobody else is out there, and it's

653
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 2: kind of a crime of opportunity. And when they arrest them,

654
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: which is on pretty shaky evidence, when they arrest them,

655
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: there is so much hatred towards these two men on

656
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 2: virtually no evidence, that the sheriff has to take them

657
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 2: out of town because there's going to be a lynch

658
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 2: mob pretty quickly.

659
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 4: Oh wow, Okay, it.

660
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: Is outrageous to people.

661
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 2: These two young people out in the rugged hills are

662
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 2: murdered brutally.

663
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: And buried and it's so violent.

664
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 2: And then who else would it be but these two

665
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 2: Native American men, and it becomes a media circus literally

666
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 2: in the middle of nowhere, you know.

667
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 3: Kind of going back a little bit, Henry's body is

668
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 3: found near a cabin.

669
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 2: I thought that was interesting. Why not take her in

670
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: the cabin? Why drive her several miles away? It's almost

671
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 2: like two different motivations. But I'm not the expert, you know.

672
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 4: My question is is, well, whose cabin is it?

673
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 3: Because if we start talking about, okay, who would be

674
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 3: in this remote location at that point in time. Well,

675
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 3: one of the persons or people that would be might

676
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 3: be the property owner, who whether they lived at the

677
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 3: cabin full time or visited the cabin, And so I'm

678
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 3: going where.

679
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 2: They talked to and I don't know that, but I

680
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 2: do know that that's something that we're going to need

681
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 2: to talk about near the.

682
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: End of this.

683
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 4: Okay.

684
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 2: So we have a new DA in town, and the

685
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 2: DA really wants to make a name for himself, and

686
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 2: he wants these two guys locked up. The problem is

687
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 2: is Walter David, the brother, has a really really good alibi.

688
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 2: I know you're gonna ask me what it is, but

689
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 2: I don't know what it is. I just know the

690
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 2: sheriff immediately released him. It was good enough for this

691
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 2: white sheriff and he just said this guy was not there.

692
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 2: So obviously it was very very solid. Okay, Jack Ryan,

693
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 2: not so much the brother, the twenty one year old.

694
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 2: And that's where this piece of history becomes pretty important.

695
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 2: So Jack Ryan had been searched head to toe. Jack

696
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 2: Ryan's house where he was staying, this ranch house was searched,

697
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 2: no nothing, nothing found connecting him to the murder. No gun,

698
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 2: The murder scene had been searched looking for evidence. They

699
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,879
Speaker 2: didn't tell if Carmen and Henry had been robbed. They

700
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 2: really didn't bring anything with him, and the gun was gone.

701
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 2: But here's what then happens. They do another search and

702
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: they search again the ranch house where Jack Ryan lived

703
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 2: and they find Carmen Wagner's watch. So Jack Ryan's house

704
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 2: had already been searched by authorities and they hadn't found anything.

705
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 2: So the second time they searched the house. They find

706
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 2: Carmen's watch, and they also find the shell casings from

707
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 2: Jack Ryan's gun in the creek, so he did have

708
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 2: a gun, and they were not able to definitively say

709
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 2: that this was the gun that killed her, but it

710
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 2: was a rifle and it was enough for them to

711
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 2: really build a case against him. So the issue is

712
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 2: is that deputies admitted that these were things that were

713
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 2: found on the second search, not the first search.

714
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,280
Speaker 3: And of course there's no photographic documentation now to show

715
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,240
Speaker 3: that on the first search on the dining room table

716
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 3: there was nothing. On the second See they walk in

717
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 3: and oh my god, there's a watch there and it

718
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 3: happens to be the victims. If the evidence is planted,

719
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 3: my expectation would be that that evidence would be in

720
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 3: a location that would be very easy to find it,

721
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,759
Speaker 3: because the planter of the evidence wants to make sure

722
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 3: it's found.

723
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 2: So this is what's interesting. They have criminologists come in.

724
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 2: Of course, there's the defense attorney. When he goes on

725
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 2: trial in February of twenty six, Jack Ryan's offensive attorney

726
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 2: is saying police planted all of this, and the police

727
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 2: are saying, you have no proof of that, and criminologists

728
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 2: looked at the different pieces of evidence and they determined

729
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 2: that Jack Ryan had some clothing that appeared to have bloodstains.

730
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 2: It was inconclusive. Not only was it in conclusive, so

731
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 2: whether this was human or animal blood stains, it was inconclusive.

732
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 2: This was even blood to begin with.

733
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 3: Back in nineteen twenty five, this is a timeframe in

734
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 3: which chemical presumptive tests, just color tests are what are

735
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 3: being used to be able to say, yes, there's blood

736
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 3: here or there isn't blood here. Some of those tests

737
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,919
Speaker 3: are in use today, but they're considered presumptive tests. They

738
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 3: have the potential to cross react with non blood substances,

739
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 3: but it is a good way to eliminate a stain

740
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 3: as being blood.

741
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: So there is very little evidence. There's the watch which

742
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,479
Speaker 2: could convince a jury. There's the shell casings which could

743
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 2: convince a jury. There's that he knew them or he

744
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 2: knew her at least, so that could convince a jury.

745
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,760
Speaker 2: And of course we're talking about just the general racist

746
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 2: tone in this part of California in the nineteen twenties.

747
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 2: This is a all white jury. Unsurprisingly, this is an

748
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 2: all male jury. Also unsurprisingly, different states allowed women to

749
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 2: serve on juries at different times, and I didn't see

750
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 2: when California was, but it was not in nineteen twenty five.

751
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 2: So the jury gets the case, they deliberate, this is

752
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: March twelfth of nineteen twenty six, and they come back

753
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:14,760
Speaker 2: with a unanimous verdict.

754
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 3: What do you think it was based on the evidence

755
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 3: that I see right now? Is it what it should be?

756
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,760
Speaker 3: Is not guilty? But I'm guessing due to the dynamics

757
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 3: of what's going on that they came back guilty.

758
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: No, oh really, not guilty.

759
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 4: Not guilty.

760
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 2: They believe not enough evidence, which was shocking to me. Also, however,

761
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 2: this was just the beginning of the ordeal for Jack Ryan.

762
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 2: So Walter David, his brother, is never charged. Jack Ryan

763
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 2: is acquitted. This is great. The press lets it go.

764
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 2: Jack Ryan goes on with his life for not very

765
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 2: long though. So the DA who took over was a

766
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: guy named Stephen Metzler, which normally I would not call

767
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 2: out a DA from the nineteen twenties, but he's very important.

768
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 2: He was a prominent attorney when he became DA, and

769
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 2: he was also a prominent bootlegger. So he ran on

770
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 2: two platforms. One was that he would get rid of prohibition,

771
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 2: and the other was that he would get another conviction

772
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 2: out of Jack Ryan. One way or the other, he

773
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,359
Speaker 2: would get him convicted. So this was not good news

774
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 2: for Jack Ryan.

775
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 3: You might have to tell me this, but double jeopardy

776
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 3: existed at the time.

777
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 4: So if you haven't.

778
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 3: Acquittal, Yeah, what was he going to go after Jack

779
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:36,879
Speaker 3: Ryan with?

780
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you how.

781
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 2: He knew that he wasn't going to be able to

782
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,439
Speaker 2: get him for murdering Carmen Wagner. But he had only

783
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 2: gone on trial for Carmen Wagner. He had not gone

784
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 2: on trial for Henry Sweet. Oh, but he was also

785
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 2: going to get him for some other things. Okay, So

786
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 2: Jack Ryan's character comes into question here pretty quickly. The

787
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 2: first problem, though, that Jack has to deal with is

788
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,760
Speaker 2: something that involve his brother. So in Halloween of nineteen

789
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 2: twenty seven, Walter David, who as we know, is Jack

790
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 2: Ryan's half brother, is found dead in his home. Not surprising,

791
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 2: you know, this does happen, especially somebody who's living this

792
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 2: rugged life as a ranch hand. He had been tortured

793
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 2: to death and strangled with barbed wire.

794
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 4: Wow. Okay, so he's murdered.

795
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, I want to assess, you know how big,

796
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,359
Speaker 3: strong of a man Walter was. But to have that

797
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 3: type of homicide occur indicates that, you know, you either

798
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 3: have a very robust offender, you have multiple offenders.

799
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,720
Speaker 2: I agree, And more broadly, it's the category of person

800
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: who I think did this. So as soon as Jack

801
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 2: Ryan had been given a guilty verdict, he and his

802
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 2: brother began getting death threats. They had always been getting them,

803
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: but these really escalated, and also it escalated with the

804
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 2: election of this DA. So there are death threats which

805
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 2: essentially say you need to confess to them of Carmen

806
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 2: Wagner and Henry Sweet, go back on trial, take responsibility

807
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 2: for what you did.

808
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: And it's to both the brothers.

809
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 2: And ultimately, the DA does not investigate at all Walter

810
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 2: David's murder, not one little bit.

811
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: It's a closed case.

812
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 2: One piece of information that I think is interesting, that

813
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,760
Speaker 2: is probably my theory, is that when you have somebody

814
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: like the Steven Metzler who's in office, even though he

815
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,879
Speaker 2: wanted to get rid of prohibition, he also became someone

816
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 2: who was supposed to enforce it, and in the nineteen twenties,

817
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 2: who they used the government used to enforce prohibition was

818
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 2: the KKK, and they targeted Native Americans, black.

819
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: People, Jewish people.

820
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: They were just given the authority to enforce the Volstead Act,

821
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 2: but they enforced so much more than that. And to me,

822
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 2: this sounds like a KKK thing. What happened with Walter David.

823
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, the torture kind of confuses me a little bit.

824
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,280
Speaker 4: Yeah. Was the torture done to try to extract information.

825
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 3: They're not doing this to where this body is being

826
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 3: displayed in public to send a message at least directly

827
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 3: where somebody is now seeing something. But you know, I

828
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 3: was thinking, you know when you brought this up with Walter,

829
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 3: and I'm thinking a multiple offenders. Is this a form

830
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 3: of a lynching? Yeah, where they just went in and

831
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 3: said you know what you're done, I do, You're going

832
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 3: to suffer and you're dead.

833
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. I think it was either

834
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 2: like a KKK or the local I don't think this

835
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 2: was their families. I don't think this was Carman and

836
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 2: Henry Sweet's families. I think this was local anger. The

837
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 2: threats against them had been accelerating, both of them, and

838
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 2: Walter David just got caught by himself and it happened.

839
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 2: So Jack Ryan is of course devastated and of course

840
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 2: doesn't expect any kind of justice because this man, this

841
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,760
Speaker 2: DA has clearly a data against him and his family.

842
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 2: Jack Ryan tries to go back to a normal life.

843
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 2: This does not happen. And this is where Jack Ryan's

844
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 2: story takes a little bit of a turn. And just

845
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 2: be patient because more information will come out. I know

846
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 2: that I like to torture you sometimes by gyps and drabs,

847
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 2: but you know, I like a good dramatic story. So

848
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 2: Jack Ryan is arrested once again, and it is not

849
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 2: for murder.

850
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: It's a July.

851
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 2: Twelfth, nineteen twenty eight, so it doesn't have anything to

852
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 2: involved with the murder at Coyote Flat.

853
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: He is charged with statutory rape of a thirteen year

854
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: old girl.

855
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,280
Speaker 2: And then there are more young people coming forward and

856
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 2: the mothers are coming to the DA and saying, you know,

857
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,240
Speaker 2: you need to arrest this man. He is in jail

858
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,360
Speaker 2: for about two months until he ends up talking to

859
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 2: the district attorney and to the police in a very

860
00:43:54,520 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 2: prolonged interrogation where he confesses to these statutory rapes, to

861
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,240
Speaker 2: two of them out of the several ones that are happening.

862
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 2: So now you have people who say, see this guy,

863
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,280
Speaker 2: I mean, this guy was a terrible guy. We're putting

864
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 2: him in jail for rape. And this then becomes us

865
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 2: looking at Jack Ryan as less of a sympathetic victim

866
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: in all of this, which seems to be becoming a

867
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 2: very complicated story. What do you think about that revelation

868
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 2: of the statutory rape accusations against him.

869
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: I haven't told you if they're real yet or not.

870
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 3: Well, if I make the assumption that he is actually

871
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 3: committing the sexual assaults on younger girls, that's showing a

872
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 3: level of criminality. Now Carmen is seventeen eighteen, most certainly

873
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:54,760
Speaker 3: an individual that is capable of sexually assaulting younger girls,

874
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 3: can and do sexually assault seventeen year olds, twenty five

875
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 3: year olds, thirty five year olds. You know this. This

876
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 3: is crossover offending. These offenders do not just typically stick

877
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 3: within a very very narrow range. Some do, many do not.

878
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 3: So this would tend to suggest that Jack has a

879
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,840
Speaker 3: propensity for the type of violence that I think happened

880
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:25,280
Speaker 3: to Carmen, that she was abducted, sexually assaulted, and killed.

881
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 3: That is my theory in the double homicide. So it

882
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 3: elevates my suspicion of his role in Carmen. And this

883
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 3: is where, even though at this point three years later

884
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 3: he has been acquitted of that, the cartridge case is

885
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 3: found in the river on his property.

886
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 4: You know, none of that is I put no weight

887
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 4: on that whatsoever.

888
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 3: Unless it's tied to the weapon and amnition that was

889
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,439
Speaker 3: used to kill Henry and or Carmen. It comes down

890
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 3: to the watch. How do we know this is Carmen's watch?

891
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 3: Obviously it wasn't on her body. So if they found

892
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 3: a watch, did they go to the family and say,

893
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 3: is this Carmen's watch? Didn't have insigny on it? I

894
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 3: want to know more about the watch and then ultimately, well,

895
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 3: how did the watch get into Jack Ryan's possession and

896
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 3: what documents, what testimony was given at trial and stuff

897
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 3: in order to assess the veracity of that item of evidence. Yeah,

898
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 3: but it's just possessing a single item that you possibly

899
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,839
Speaker 3: could never say was on her body at the time

900
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 3: that she was killed.

901
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there are those accusations that the police planted it. Yes,

902
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 2: he and his defense attorney pretty much are the only

903
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 2: ones making those accusations because everyone else is white. You

904
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 2: know how it will go with local police and maybe

905
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 2: a small town. They just want somebody caught. They want

906
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: people to not be scared anymore. And this is scary

907
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 2: even for nineteen twenty five this part of rural California.

908
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 2: A woman in a shallow grave and a guy sprawled

909
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 2: out by his car from a different part of the

910
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,760
Speaker 2: state would be frightening. And they just wanted somebody behind bars.

911
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 2: And now you have this man who is seemingly attacked

912
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,240
Speaker 2: young girls, and people are coming forward and they're saying,

913
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 2: do you see do you see what you did? You

914
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 2: acquitted this guy, and look at the bad things that

915
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 2: he's been doing.

916
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,959
Speaker 4: Yeah. So now for the rest of the story where

917
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 4: these statutory rape accusations actually substantiated.

918
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: Well, here's what's interesting.

919
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 2: At his court date, after having a Metzler, the DA,

920
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 2: who we think is a crooked DA. At this point,

921
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 2: the DA and the investigators not only does he plead

922
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 2: guilty to the statutory rape charges, he also admits to

923
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 2: killing Carmen Wagner and Henry Sweet at Coyote Flat. And

924
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 2: you're right, double jeopardy. He couldn't be charged with Carmen,

925
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 2: and so they charge him with Henry Sweet and he

926
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 2: is immediately taken to San Quentin and he gets a

927
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 2: life sentence, so no death penalty. But this is a

928
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 2: quick turn of events and not something I would have expected.

929
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 3: Nor I now comes into question considering the DA, considering

930
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 3: the racial curt culture. Do you have a situation of

931
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 3: coersion where this defendant basically his only out for whatever

932
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 3: it is, is to admit to something that he didn't do.

933
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 3: If he's confessing at that point in time, then he

934
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 3: needs to give me a complete rundown of every single

935
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:27,360
Speaker 3: thing that happened during the homicide of Henry and Carmen

936
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 3: as well as the killing of Pronto, and tell me

937
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 3: where the murder weapon's at.

938
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,800
Speaker 1: And this is why police withhold information well.

939
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 3: Most certainly during the investigator phase, but with Jack Ryan,

940
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 3: this has gone to trial.

941
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, their cards are on the table, They should be

942
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 2: all on the table.

943
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 3: You're trying to secure a conviction, and the murder weapon

944
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 3: is nowhere to be found. So that's going to be

945
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 3: the one thing that I am going to be wanting

946
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 3: him to lead me to if it still exists. If

947
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 3: he says, you know, I melted it down and you

948
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 3: know it's been scattered the river, then it's unrecoverable.

949
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 4: But if it still exists, give me the murder weapon.

950
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 2: Well this is where it all unravels. Everything comes undone here.

951
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:12,879
Speaker 2: So Jack Ryan, of course recants, is what we would

952
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 2: think would happen. He recants. He says, I didn't do

953
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 2: any of this, including the statutory rapes. And he is

954
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 2: in prison for twenty years until nineteen forty seven when

955
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 2: the Bureau of Indian Affairs gets pissed off and starts

956
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 2: looking into this finally, and they interrogate Metzler, the DA

957
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 2: who is now no longer the DA, and they present

958
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 2: him with all of this evidence. This doesn't make sense.

959
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,919
Speaker 2: You already searched, where did the cartridges come from? Where

960
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 2: did the watch come from? He didn't even really know

961
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:46,200
Speaker 2: an these people, He wasn't even really in the air.

962
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, all of this is really bad evidence.

963
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:53,799
Speaker 2: And Metzler, proudly it sounds like, starts offering all kinds

964
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:58,280
Speaker 2: of things that he did to orchestrate a huge conspiracy

965
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 2: against Jack Ryan. He pays women's mothers, girls mothers to

966
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 2: come and accuse this man of statutory rape. They all said,

967
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 2: we got money for it. Wow, so they wanted.

968
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 1: Him to get in jail.

969
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 2: He admitted that he had tried to set up Ryan

970
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 2: in other previous attempts. So the Los Angeles Times did

971
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 2: a huge investigation into this, and they documented that Metzler

972
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 2: arranged for a trip wire to be set up so

973
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 2: it would fire a booby trapped rifle at Ryan, as

974
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 2: he wrote on the trail that he regularly traveled to

975
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 2: just take this guy out. He hated him so much,

976
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 2: and I think this comes into the racism part of it.

977
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:41,280
Speaker 2: He wrote threatening letters to Ryan saying if you don't confess,

978
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 2: you will be murdered the same way your brother was

979
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 2: murdered with the strangulation with a barboar. So this is

980
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 2: all coming out that he has really been trying to

981
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 2: set this up. They planted evidence all to orchestrate to

982
00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 2: get this guy in prison.

983
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 1: Finally, all based on racism.

984
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 3: From my understanding, did Mettzler coordinate the homicide of Walter.

985
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 1: No, we'll get to the end of that.

986
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 2: I know you want to get to the meat of it,

987
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:10,879
Speaker 2: but you know I like to drag things at dramatically,

988
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 2: so all of this comes out. It's still it takes

989
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 2: six years for Jack Ryan to be released. So he

990
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 2: was in prison for twenty six years for something he

991
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 2: didn't do, for two murders.

992
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 1: That he didn't do.

993
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 2: So he gets out in fifty three and he was paroled. Finally,

994
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 2: he was paroled at fifty years old. He wasn't even pardoned.

995
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 2: And finally Ronald Reagan commuted in sixty nine when he

996
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,800
Speaker 2: was a California's governor, he commuted Ryan's sentenced to time served.

997
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 1: So he wasn't I mean, this was not even a pardon.

998
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,320
Speaker 1: He was out. He was no longer a parolee.

999
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 2: So he went back to Humboldt County and he was

1000
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 2: isolated because there was just no family left.

1001
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 1: He had missed all of those years.

1002
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 2: And in nineteen thirty, if we go back thirty something years,

1003
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 2: the DA that we're talking about, Meer was charged with

1004
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 2: conspiracy to violate national prohibition laws because he was a bootlagger,

1005
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,320
Speaker 2: and he ultimately ended up in prison, but not because

1006
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 2: of this. So this was incredible because he knew all

1007
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 2: along that Jack Ryan was innocent of this, and he

1008
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 2: continued to try to fabricate evidence and make threats against

1009
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 2: him for various reasons that I suspect had to do

1010
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 2: with politics, mostly had to do just with this hatred

1011
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 2: of someone who was Native American.

1012
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 3: It's tragic. Here you have an innocent man. He's arrested

1013
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 3: in nineteen twenty eight, his reputation is smeared, he's coerced.

1014
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 3: He spends roughly forty years in prison. Most of his

1015
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 3: life is from behind bars. At this point, the very

1016
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 3: most sacred right that we have is freedom. The government

1017
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 3: took it away from him, and it was due to

1018
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 3: this corrupt official and all the people that participated to

1019
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 3: do it. But on the other hand, you still have

1020
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 3: a double homicide of Henry and Carmen, I know, and

1021
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 3: that must still be unsolved today.

1022
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 2: So here's the ending of this. There's an amazing person

1023
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:15,800
Speaker 2: named Rachel Walton who was an investigator for the District

1024
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 2: Attorney's office in the eighties, and she spent ten years

1025
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 2: looking at Jack Ryan's case, and she worked tirelessly. She

1026
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 2: interviewed more than four hundred people to come to the

1027
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 2: conclusion definitively that this man had been set up, that

1028
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 2: he had been coerced into confessing this was a false confession,

1029
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 2: which happens all the time. My father used to say,

1030
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:39,800
Speaker 2: you know, you hear on shows all the time. Innocent

1031
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:41,240
Speaker 2: people don't call attorneys.

1032
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 4: Yes they do, Oh yeah, they do.

1033
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 2: Smartiness that people also call attorneys, and it's okay to

1034
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 2: do that, yes, But what ended up happening was you

1035
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 2: have all of these police officers who were there in

1036
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 2: the nineteen twenties that she interviewed in the eighties who said, yes,

1037
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 2: he was coerced, he did not actually do this. So

1038
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 2: he died in seventy eight. He never had children, he

1039
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:05,280
Speaker 2: never married, He lived a very quiet life. Twenty years later,

1040
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 2: Pete Wilson, who was the governor of California at the time,

1041
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 2: finally issued a pardon and just said he was in

1042
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 2: the wrong place at the wrong time. This is overwhelming

1043
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 2: evidence of a conspiracy and he deserves to be finally exonerated,

1044
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 2: which was just so long overdue.

1045
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: But we do have two unsolved.

1046
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:29,319
Speaker 2: Murders, and that nasty, horrible Da Metzler did give the

1047
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 2: name of somebody who he thought was responsible, but we

1048
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 2: can't verify it.

1049
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 1: Okay, this guy's been gone for decades.

1050
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 2: But remember I told you Henry Sweet dabbled in a

1051
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 2: little bit of bootlegging, like probably my grandparents are great grandparents,

1052
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 2: and I mean, everybody did.

1053
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:44,280
Speaker 4: Sure.

1054
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:49,359
Speaker 2: So the suspicion from what Metzler the DA thought, and

1055
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 2: what I think this woman Rachel Walton also thinks, is

1056
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 2: that this was a bad deal that happened, that really

1057
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 2: sweet was killed over a debt, and that Carmen was

1058
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 2: a victim of circumstance, So she was not the initial target,

1059
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,640
Speaker 2: but it was a crime of opportunity. If this was

1060
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 2: indeed a sex assault, and I'm just not sure if

1061
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 2: she were not personally targeted, I can't imagine this would

1062
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:17,240
Speaker 2: be anything but a sexual assault against her.

1063
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 1: If she's buried, that's just the theory that.

1064
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:21,480
Speaker 2: It was a bad deal. And that's why I was

1065
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:23,880
Speaker 2: wondering about that cabin. Was he told to go to

1066
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 2: this cabin you have to settle a debt. That's why

1067
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:28,399
Speaker 2: they went. It wasn't for a hunting trip. Maybe that's

1068
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 2: why they never found the gun. And this whole thing

1069
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 2: went down because it's weird. It happened next to a

1070
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 2: cabin that had been empty.

1071
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 3: Now, the luring of these victims out, isolating these victims

1072
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 3: out middle of nowhere by this cabin, This, from my perspective,

1073
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 3: shows a certain behavior by the offender. The offender is

1074
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 3: willing to leave the mail. Henry just laying out in

1075
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:51,440
Speaker 3: playing view on.

1076
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 2: The surface recognizable. Yep, doesn't mutilate.

1077
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 4: Them, but to hide Carmen.

1078
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:00,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, this for me is like, Okay, this offender does

1079
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:06,240
Speaker 3: not want to be known as a rapist. Maybe Henry

1080
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 3: is a message to others that odette. But now I've

1081
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 3: got beautiful Carmen. I'm going to take advantage of having

1082
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 3: this beautiful young woman sexually, and then now I will

1083
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 3: eliminate her. Was the dog in the grave or the

1084
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 3: dog left on the surface.

1085
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: I think he was left on the surface.

1086
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:24,800
Speaker 2: It's not easy to dig a grave, even a shallow grave,

1087
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 2: so you have to be motivated.

1088
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 1: There has to be a reason he did it.

1089
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 4: The dog on the surface.

1090
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:34,240
Speaker 3: I speculate that the dog was killed first because it's sparking,

1091
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 3: it's yappy. The offender is eliminating this noise and this

1092
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 3: kind of a dog that may be pestering the situation.

1093
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 3: And now the offender, with the dog eliminated, possibly sexually

1094
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:49,839
Speaker 3: assaults Carmen at this location, kills her, puts her in

1095
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 3: the grave. This would suggest that after Henry's killed, the

1096
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:57,240
Speaker 3: offender takes Carmen and the dog to this very location,

1097
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 3: likely in a vehicle. When I was looking at Coyote Flats.

1098
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:03,760
Speaker 3: You know, when we start talking with roads up there,

1099
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:06,400
Speaker 3: these aren't paved roads. These are the locations where I

1100
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 3: take my cheap.

1101
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know. And even though Henry had.

1102
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 3: Just a little roadster, my guess is that this offender

1103
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 3: has a vehicle to be able to go into these

1104
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 3: various locations up there off road, and that vehicle is

1105
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 3: going to be equipped with the necessary implements in order

1106
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 3: to work with the land.

1107
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 4: My focus is going to be maybe back at that cabin.

1108
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 1: Who owns it?

1109
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, the social circle, the people that own that cabin.

1110
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 3: We see this, believe it or I've got a case

1111
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:39,440
Speaker 3: and solved case dealing with the Hell's Angels back in

1112
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:44,439
Speaker 3: the fifties sixties initiation fights to the death supposedly out

1113
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 3: in Contracosta County, and these were occurring not on Hell's

1114
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 3: Angels property, but somebody associated with the Hell's Angels. And

1115
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 3: so that's where I start looking at this, going, Okay,

1116
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 3: who owns the cabin, who's out there all the time,

1117
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 3: but who's associated with the property owned? Maybe this is

1118
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 3: somebody who's willing to have meetups in the bootlegging industry.

1119
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 3: Who's to eliminate the DA who's also a bootlegger? Yeah,

1120
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 3: it was Henry doing business with the DA.

1121
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 1: At one point might have been You're right.

1122
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 3: And that's why the DA is so focused in on Ryan.

1123
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:20,479
Speaker 3: That's the misdirection. Fascinating case.

1124
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 2: It's a fascinating case, and it is eighty five years

1125
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,439
Speaker 2: and nine, almost ninety years old. But the only thing

1126
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 2: for sure we know about this case is that Jack

1127
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 2: Ryan didn't have anything to do with it.

1128
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it really it cost him this light. He got

1129
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 3: a death sentence back in nineteen twenty eight, essentiallyin.

1130
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 2: Well, this was a sad ending to another wonderful recording

1131
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 2: with you, though every time I think I know exactly

1132
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 2: what Paul is going to say, you surprise me. Most

1133
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:51,440
Speaker 2: of the time, I know what you're talking about, but

1134
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 2: you come up with a little kernel of something that

1135
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 2: makes me think of things differently, which is not easy

1136
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:59,080
Speaker 2: for me because I think through crimes pretty well. I've

1137
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:02,400
Speaker 2: been reporting on crime for so long. But that's what's

1138
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 2: good about this collaboration is you really do pop up

1139
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 2: stuff in my head that wasn't.

1140
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 1: There to begin with. So I think that's pretty great.

1141
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:11,479
Speaker 4: You do a good job of keeping me in the dark.

1142
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 4: Now you keep me guessing. Thank you until next time.

1143
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production for.

1144
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 3: Our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com

1145
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:28,240
Speaker 3: slash Buried Bones sources.

1146
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1147
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:34,000
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1148
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

1149
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:38,960
Speaker 4: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1150
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1151
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1152
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1153
00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 2: Buried Bones Pod.

1154
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1155
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race of decode the

1156
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 3: criminal Mind, is available for pre order now

1157
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:02,080
Speaker 2: And Paul's best selling memoir Are Unmasked, My life solving

1158
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 2: America's cold Cases is also available now