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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Did Washington State University know Brian Coburger was a dangerous threat?

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Speaker 1: Were there fiery red.

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Speaker 2: Flags of alarm that they chose to ignore? Would he

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Speaker 2: have been kicked out and home to mommy and daddy

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Speaker 2: in the Poconos and these murders would never have happened

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Speaker 2: if Washington State University had acted this. As photos of

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Speaker 2: the killer's bleak apartment are revealed, what clues did he

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Speaker 2: leave behind?

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Speaker 1: And believe it or.

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Speaker 2: Not, witnesses are getting death threats as the victims' families

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Speaker 2: in anguish as vile images of their children in death

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Speaker 2: are being released. Oh e double l n oh, I

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Speaker 2: mean as he Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want

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Speaker 2: to thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 3: Location of emergency.

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Speaker 4: Scream and she ran un stairs because she saw someone.

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Speaker 1: That's what I'm pretty sure she said. She someone's here

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Speaker 1: and she's screaming.

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Speaker 5: Just a random series.

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Speaker 6: Did you kill and murder Madison Mogan, Kaylee Gonsalves, Xana

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Speaker 6: cernodle Ethan Chapin.

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Speaker 2: Yes. At this our family members still holding out hope

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Speaker 2: that the Feds will swoop in and seek the death

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Speaker 2: penalty on Brian Coburger. Is it possible, And what about

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Speaker 2: the fact that he was leaving a trail a mile

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Speaker 2: wide red flags of alarm to Washington State University that

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Speaker 2: Brian Coburger was a danger. Will listen to what the

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Speaker 2: Gonsalvice family has to say. Find it really interesting that

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Speaker 2: Washington State had this long history of his anti woman,

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Speaker 2: misogynist stalking behavior and did nothing.

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Speaker 1: That's really interesting.

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Speaker 2: If he had been thrown out, he wouldn't have even

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Speaker 2: been there exactly.

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Speaker 7: Yep.

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Speaker 8: He should have been thrown out before he ever killed

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Speaker 8: these kids.

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Speaker 9: That's the truth.

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Speaker 8: If they should have set a standard and said, look,

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Speaker 8: we don't put up with this in our university. You

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Speaker 8: cross the line, you're done. It's not even our decision,

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Speaker 8: it's just your behavior. We're holding you accountable. You should

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Speaker 8: behave like this. That's the expectations in Washington State University.

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Speaker 8: And you either do it or you don't.

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Speaker 2: I can always tell when he's having a bad day,

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Speaker 2: and he looks probably the worst I've ever seen him,

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Speaker 2: and he just kind of stared at me, and there

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Speaker 2: was a newsaper sitting on the bar, and he just

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Speaker 2: kind of picked it up.

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Speaker 9: And I was like he was him.

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Speaker 8: He was really desperate for its engine and ways to

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Speaker 8: control people.

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Speaker 2: That last sound from our friends ever at Crime Fix

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Speaker 2: co workers when they heard about the killings.

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Speaker 1: They're like, it's Coburger.

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Speaker 2: It's got to be Brian Coburger with me an all

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Speaker 2: star panel of guests to make sense of what we

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Speaker 2: know right now. But first to Susan Hendricks, investigative journalists

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Speaker 2: that shot to fame in her coverage of the Delphi murderers,

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Speaker 2: author of Down the heel My, descended to the double

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Speaker 2: murder in Delphi and was there for the sentencing drinking

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Speaker 2: in every move Coburger made, such as it was or

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Speaker 2: was not, he seemed completely oblivious to all the pain

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Speaker 2: around him, pain he had caused. But Susan Hendrix, let

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Speaker 2: me get to the issue at hand.

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Speaker 1: Washington State University.

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Speaker 2: Did you hear mister Golensolvis telling us that there had

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Speaker 2: been thirteen complaints where he would intimidate or stalk female students.

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Speaker 7: Absolutely and that he almost or wanted to make them cry.

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Speaker 5: That is what he did.

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Speaker 7: He treated them completely different than the male students.

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Speaker 5: It was signed after.

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Speaker 1: Sign after sign. To me, what did it take?

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Speaker 5: And was that the final straw for him? When he

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Speaker 5: was finally let go.

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Speaker 7: But you're right, complaint after a complaint, the Gonzalvez family says,

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Speaker 7: it just told.

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Speaker 2: Me something I didn't know, Susan Hendrix, that part of

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Speaker 2: the intimidation tactics on Brian Coiberger was to try and

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Speaker 2: make the girls cry.

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Speaker 5: Yes, he seemed to enjoy what well.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that.

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Speaker 7: Yes, would criticize the girls more, pin them out, pointed

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Speaker 7: them out in class, and would.

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Speaker 1: Make them cry.

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Speaker 7: It was a clear difference in that classroom, and they

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Speaker 7: complained and finally was the final straw when he was

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Speaker 7: let go. But absolutely there were signs, and we keep

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Speaker 7: hearing more and more every day.

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Speaker 1: Did nothing. Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us.

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Speaker 2: In addition to Susan Hendrix, Doctor Bethany renounced like o

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Speaker 2: Alice out.

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Speaker 1: Of La author of deal Breakers.

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Speaker 2: You can see her now on Peacock and you can

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Speaker 2: find her a Dr Bethany Marshall dot com.

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Speaker 1: Dr Bethany.

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Speaker 2: That sounds like a fifth grade No, not even a

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Speaker 2: fifth grade, a first grade boy, kiss the girls and

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Speaker 2: make them cry, A grown man getting his PhD. One instance,

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Speaker 2: mister Golensovst told me about no is missus Gonsalvias told

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Speaker 2: me about Christy that he would standing in the doorway

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Speaker 2: where the students were trying to get into the classroom,

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Speaker 2: all boat up, and the girls would have to like

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Speaker 2: edge by him and their bodies, their front of their bodies,

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Speaker 2: you know what that ntails. It would have to brush

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Speaker 2: up against him. That's gross. And then Susant Hendricks telling

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Speaker 2: us that he would intentionally make the girls students cry.

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Speaker 5: Nancy, this doesn't surprise me at all because the defining

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Speaker 5: feature of psychopaths is that sexuality, cruelty, and sadism are

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Speaker 5: all commingled. They go together in some way. So making

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Speaker 5: the girls cry was probably sexually exciting for him.

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Speaker 2: Bethany, Okay, you know, even if you wear hit boots

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Speaker 2: when you walk through the saspool, you're still going to track.

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Speaker 1: A little home on the living room carpet.

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Speaker 2: Do you ever get so saturated you track a little

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Speaker 2: bit home? Because do you hear what you're saying? That

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Speaker 2: Coburger would get sexually aroused. Oh, I don't even think

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Speaker 2: about that, over seeing girls tear up and get upset.

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Speaker 2: And how does that connect to what he did to

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Speaker 2: the victims?

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Speaker 5: Well, yeah, so what I'm saying is that seeing them

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Speaker 5: cry is like looking in their eyes and seeing pain

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Speaker 5: of some sort. And when you think about what he

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Speaker 5: might have been doing to make them cry, he was

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Speaker 5: probably gathering personal information and pushing their buttons, and that

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Speaker 5: I'm saying this is associated with sexual arousal. So these

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Speaker 5: women he probably had an erection while he was doing this.

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Speaker 5: And how it relates to the murders is that the

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Speaker 5: murders were really overkilled. They were statistically motivated. And if

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Speaker 5: we think of think of him stalking the women, the

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Speaker 5: university women as kind of like foreplay before he got

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Speaker 5: to the major crime, which was stabbing these students multiple times.

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Speaker 5: So it's like he was graduating towards increasingly sadistic acts

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Speaker 5: in order to maintain his sexual excitement.

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Speaker 1: That's what we have to see.

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Speaker 5: So had he not been incarcerated.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Bethany, wait till you hear this, Christy. Missus Gonsalves

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Speaker 2: and husband Steve Gonsalves are telling me about how many

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Speaker 2: complaints he had. Now, remember, doctor Bethany, he had just

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Speaker 2: gotten to pull him in Washington State University and by

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Speaker 2: Thanksgiving they say that there were already that they know

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Speaker 2: of teen formal complaints by women against him. What is

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Speaker 2: that September, October, part of November, in two and a

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Speaker 2: half months. What I'm saying is Washington State apparently did nothing.

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Speaker 2: They finally had meetings and discussions and blah blah blah,

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Speaker 2: and decided they were going to let him go. But

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Speaker 2: they released him just out into the wilderness.

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Speaker 1: Now listen to what they said, doctor Bethany.

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Speaker 4: I mean, he had thirteen in the first semester. The

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Speaker 4: first one came in August, that's the first month that

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Speaker 4: you come to school, and then twelve twelve after and

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Speaker 4: November had a huge, you know, Thanksgiving break, and then

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Speaker 4: he didn't even go the whole month of December. He

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Speaker 4: took off, like December ninth or tenth. And there's thirteen

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Speaker 4: formal complaints back, aggressive and standing doorways from what we've read,

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Speaker 4: and the girls would have to like walk past him

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Speaker 4: and like all right, yeah, you know.

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Speaker 1: Joining me is justice.

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Speaker 2: Scott Morgan not only death investigator with literally thousands of

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Speaker 2: death scenes under his belt. He is a star of

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Speaker 2: hitting new series Body Bags with Joe. Scott Morgan, author

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Speaker 2: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, but purpose for

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Speaker 2: purposes of this discussion, Joe Scott is also professor a

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Speaker 2: forensics at Jacksonville State University.

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Speaker 1: Don't you guys have rules?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I know Jacksonville State University does, But how

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Speaker 2: many complaints do there have to be? There's thirteen formal

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Speaker 2: complaints we've been told by the gonsalvices.

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Speaker 1: How many more were they that were just like comments?

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Speaker 2: You know, just comments like what is wrong with him

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Speaker 2: going to complain to another faculty member or a guidance

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Speaker 2: counselor what in the world can you imagine a grown

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Speaker 2: man enjoying seeing his girls students.

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Speaker 1: Start crying and they just let it happen.

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Speaker 10: According to reports at jack State, he would have been

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Speaker 10: out on his ear. This is my twenty first year

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Speaker 10: as a college professor, Nancy, and I got to tell you,

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Speaker 10: I'm thinking about this in a different way now that

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Speaker 10: this conversation has come out and I've got my professor

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Speaker 10: hat on right now. I think that his motivation for

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Speaker 10: being in an academic environment is so that he can

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Speaker 10: perpetrate upon these defenseless kids. In this environment, he is

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Speaker 10: lord and master in this environment. He can control the classroom,

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Speaker 10: He can do whatever he wants to. He can do

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Speaker 10: that dead eyed stare at people, and he is not

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Speaker 10: in any way an educator. Look when kids come into

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Speaker 10: my class and they're learning about forensics, I don't want

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Speaker 10: to sound like a Kumba y'ah moment, because it's not.

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Speaker 10: I want them to come in so that they can learn,

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Speaker 10: so they can go forth and be effective practitioners in

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Speaker 10: the field. That's not the environment that he created, Nancy.

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Speaker 10: If I were to compare him to something, I would

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Speaker 10: say this. If you know how a snapping turtle works.

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Speaker 10: They sit on the bottom of the water, their mouth

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Speaker 10: is open, and you know what, their tongue comes out

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Speaker 10: and it looks like a worm. So anything that comes

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Speaker 10: by that fish is going to attack that worm and

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Speaker 10: then they clamp down. That's what he is. That's this behavior,

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Speaker 10: and he was utilizing the university in this environment to

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Speaker 10: look for victims. And I think he probably would have

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Speaker 10: continued as well, you're going to have.

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Speaker 1: To tell me the tongue and the worm part again. What.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, snapping turtle will sit on the bottom of a

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Speaker 10: lake bed or on the bottom of a river bottom,

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Speaker 10: and they will sit there and they'll open their mouth

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Speaker 10: and their tongue looks like a worm. It'll come out

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Speaker 10: and just kind of sit in the water like this,

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Speaker 10: so if a fish comes by, they'll see it, they'll

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Speaker 10: strike at it, and when they do, the snapping turtle

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Speaker 10: clash down his jaws on them and there's your meal.

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Speaker 10: I've always felt like it was a reptile anyway, this

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Speaker 10: further confirms it to me as a professor.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there has to be rules that are followed.

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Speaker 2: I'm just thinking about what doctor Bethany is saying about

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Speaker 2: basically scaring the girls and making them cry and enjoying it.

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Speaker 2: And according to the Gonsolvaces, this was a pattern of behavior.

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Speaker 2: If they had kicked him out, as I think they

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Speaker 2: should have, he would have turned tail. You'd see nothing

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Speaker 2: but tailhole and elbows him are running home to mommy

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Speaker 2: and daddy. But no, he stayed and ended up murdering

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Speaker 2: the four students. And there's more. Listen to killing Gonsolvas's father.

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Speaker 1: React.

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Speaker 8: Guys should have been punched in the face. He was

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Speaker 8: a creep man. He's a disgusting creep the kind of guy.

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Speaker 8: We even heard about it from the Seven Sirens Bar

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Speaker 8: where those girls put a little note saying, hey, if

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Speaker 8: you get this credit card, watch out for this guy.

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Speaker 8: I mean, he's been doing this his whole life and

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Speaker 8: we didn't stand up to him. We need to start

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Speaker 8: standing up to these type of bully and death. No,

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Speaker 8: hopefully Idaho get it right. Hope, Hopefully the prisoner's in there,

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Speaker 8: they'll do the real justice.

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Speaker 10: They they'll have like real.

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Speaker 8: Men in there and they'll handle it the way that

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Speaker 8: he should be handled in the first place.

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Speaker 2: Are you surprised, doctor Bethany Marshall? He wasn't just terrorizing

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Speaker 2: the female students at school a lot of them thirteen

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Speaker 2: formal complaints that we know of. How many other complaints

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Speaker 2: were they that were there that were not formal, but

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Speaker 2: now we know it was discussed at bars and restaurants

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Speaker 2: where the female waitresses like, watch.

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Speaker 1: Out for this guy.

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Speaker 2: He is a creep state away from him, so he

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Speaker 2: couldn't contain himself.

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Speaker 5: It was compulsive, Nancy, and he could not stop himself. Again,

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Speaker 5: if we think of sex aggression, making women cry, dominating women,

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Speaker 5: threatening and intimidating them as all going hand in hand,

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Speaker 5: we could say, in a sense he was sexually compulsive,

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Speaker 5: that he was constantly instantly acting this out everywhere he went.

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Speaker 5: And Nancy, if the criminology professors told the school administration

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Speaker 5: that he was a danger. Why wouldn't they trust criminology professors.

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Speaker 5: I mean, these people are trained to spot sociopaths. And furthermore,

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Speaker 5: did you know that Brian Coberger's school office was in

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Speaker 5: the basement. It was it was isolated from other offices,

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Speaker 5: and because of that, students were afraid of him and

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Speaker 5: did not want to go in. So in a sense,

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Speaker 5: they served up the students like a tasty little snack

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Speaker 5: to him, which I think is just so so disgusting

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Speaker 5: and it's really disturbing.

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Speaker 3: The emergency of the emergency. What is the rest of

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Speaker 3: the address?

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Speaker 1: Oh roads okay?

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Speaker 3: And there's a house or an apartment.

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Speaker 1: It's a house.

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Speaker 3: Can you repeat theadress to make sure that I have

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Speaker 3: it right.

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Speaker 1: I'll talk to you guys.

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Speaker 11: We're we live a delights so we're next to them.

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Speaker 3: I need someone to repeat the adress for raification.

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Speaker 1: The address one one to two Kingdom.

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Speaker 10: So many stabs, it's unbelievable, And I've written in the

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Speaker 10: document I heard that.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna be okay, and you and I can call.

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Speaker 11: Your name to thee.

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Speaker 3: They saw some men in their house.

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Speaker 10: A route wised to each and every one of them.

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Speaker 2: Does it never end for the victims families? Well, short answer, no,

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Speaker 2: their suffering will never end. But now they have another

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Speaker 2: fight on their hands, trying to stop vile images of

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Speaker 2: their children in death being released.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine. I remember writing.

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Speaker 2: My first book, Objection, and I learned about what I

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Speaker 2: call blood money, people trying to get crime scene photos.

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Speaker 2: I remember specifically people trying to get Nicole Brown OJ

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Speaker 2: Simpson's wife autopsy photos. Yes, so they could sell them.

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Speaker 1: That fight going on.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't believe that there are ghouls out there doing that.

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Speaker 2: The family fighting tooth and now tonight to try to

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Speaker 2: stop those images. But right now I want to tell

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Speaker 2: you about just obtained photos.

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Speaker 1: And we are not not here on crime stories.

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Speaker 2: We are not posting photos, bloody photos of these children,

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Speaker 2: these University idahost students.

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Speaker 1: That is not happening here.

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Speaker 2: I will show you weird photos of the killer, Brian

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Speaker 2: Coburger's Pullman apartment, very bleak apartment to.

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Speaker 1: Determine what, if anything, we can learn.

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Speaker 12: Listen, new evidence photos show the bleak interior of Coberger's

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Speaker 12: Pullman apartment and WSU office. Aside from graded papers, criminology

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Speaker 12: textbooks and a few birthday cards. Coburger's apartment is largely

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Speaker 12: devoid of any personal items.

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Speaker 5: Police marked a.

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Speaker 12: Black glove, Coburger's computer tower, a few receipts, and a

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Speaker 12: vacuum cleaner as evidence items, but found little of value

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Speaker 12: in the sparse apartment. Coberger's nearly empty home echoes his

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Speaker 12: thin social life. The admitted mass murderer had just eighteen

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Speaker 12: contacts saved in his cell phone and spoke to his

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Speaker 12: parents for hours at a time every single day.

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Speaker 1: Oh my stars.

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Speaker 2: Of course, Philip de Bay is going to join us

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Speaker 2: in just a moment to tell me how this doesn't

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Speaker 2: mean anything. But I guarantee you it would have meant

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Speaker 2: something to a jury. Did you see his bleak apartment,

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Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany Marshall, That means something.

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Speaker 1: Even his food in his freezer.

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Speaker 2: I remember a family was over, a friend of my

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Speaker 2: daughter's family was over and they're very oh my goodness, Okay, yeah, no,

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Speaker 2: that's not happening in our house. The family was over

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Speaker 2: and they were very strict on their diets and their

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Speaker 2: children's diets, and one of the children asked for, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, a juice box or something and I opened

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Speaker 2: up We're all standing in the kitchen. Of course, I

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Speaker 2: opened up our fridge and they literally physically react.

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Speaker 1: And they went because the fridge is.

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Speaker 2: Just crammed with leftovers and leftovers and blah. It's just

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Speaker 2: you have to dig in there. It's like an excavation

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Speaker 2: to find something.

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Speaker 1: Look at Coburger's.

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Speaker 2: I can hear Dubai in the background going, he wants

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Speaker 2: to jump in so badly. What does that mean, Bethany,

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Speaker 2: I mean, looking this fridge, there's nothing.

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Speaker 1: There's not even a piece of lint on the floor.

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Speaker 2: Oh is that an apple he's got in a zip

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Speaker 2: lock bag on the right. But you're not supposed to

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Speaker 2: put apples in the fridge, that said tofu. Yes, and

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Speaker 2: everything is hermetically sealed, and it looks like that fridge

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Speaker 2: was just cleaned out with some type of antibacterial spray.

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Speaker 1: Hit me, Bethany, well.

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Speaker 5: This, you know, the apples in the baggy are kind

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Speaker 5: of an OCD type thing, right, being afraid of germs.

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Speaker 5: I like what the commentator said about a thin emotional life.

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Speaker 5: When you think of the traits of the sociopath as

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Speaker 5: having very shallow emotions, their lives are not rich like ours.

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Speaker 5: They don't put photos around of family members, they don't

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Speaker 5: collect memories of the people around them. They're not comforted

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Speaker 5: by home. If you think of what we were talking

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Speaker 5: about earlier, about the fact that he has what we

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Speaker 5: call a perophilia, So a paraphilia is constant sexual arousal

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Speaker 5: at something that is not sexual in nature, so anything

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Speaker 5: other than sex paired with attraction towards non consenting adults.

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Speaker 5: This is something that preoccupies Coburger. That's all he has

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Speaker 5: room for. So it's not surprising to me when you

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Speaker 5: look at his apartment that there's no sign of emotional richness,

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Speaker 5: emotional life relationships, anything other than crime and the apples

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Speaker 5: in the baggie, which are both just very compulsive. His

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Speaker 5: whole life is organized around his compulsion. Nancy, I don't

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Speaker 5: know what you just said. You lost me at being

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Speaker 5: sexually aroused.

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Speaker 1: By an item not in nature, like, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what that.

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Speaker 5: Means, noet being a paraphilia is two things. It's being

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Speaker 5: aroused by anything that is not sexual in nature, meaning

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Speaker 5: it's and also being aroused by a non consenting adult.

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Speaker 5: That means that he would not be aroused by a

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Speaker 5: woman who loves him or wants to be with him,

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Speaker 5: he would he would only be aroused by a woman

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Speaker 5: who's non consenting and doesn't want to be with him.

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Speaker 5: In other words, he can't gain sexual excitement by anything

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Speaker 5: other than being around people who really are not connected

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Speaker 5: to him in any way. That's what we call a perversion.

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Speaker 5: You cannot be excited by a full connection with another

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Speaker 5: human being who loves you back. So it creates kind

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Speaker 5: of a shallow perspective in life, and the apartment seems shallow,

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Speaker 5: like it's just there's no life there.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now.

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Speaker 2: Special guest Chris McDonough, director cole CA's Foundation, former homicide

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Speaker 2: detective with over three hundred Oh yes, speaking of OCD,

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Speaker 2: check this out. Shoes lined up. He's staring up at

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Speaker 2: the shelf to make sure. Oh, he's cleaning the creases

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Speaker 2: in his shoe from.

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Speaker 1: What all that mud? No, from nothing.

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Speaker 2: Chris McDonough director, Cold Case Foundation, homicide detective, over three

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Speaker 2: hundred homicides under his belt. I found him on the

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Speaker 2: Interview Room on YouTube. That's his show, Chris. When you

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Speaker 2: look at this apartment, what I'm saying is overarching theory here.

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Speaker 2: There were red flags, fiery red flags being.

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Speaker 1: Waved in front of everybody's face. Okay, nobody got it.

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Speaker 2: Nobody did anything, and including Washington State University. I'm calling

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Speaker 2: you out, people, But are you surprised that there were

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Speaker 2: no blood drops in his home? They got that vacuum cleaner,

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Speaker 2: you know, to do what to see if there was

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Speaker 2: any trace of the victim's hair, any fibers, even dog

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Speaker 2: fibers from Murphy the dog, dog hair, from anything they

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Speaker 2: could find.

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Speaker 1: That's not gonna happen.

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Speaker 2: What do you see, you're the trained homicide detective. When

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Speaker 2: you look at his free key clean apartment, it gives

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Speaker 2: me the scheme just looking at.

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Speaker 9: It, You know, Nancy, what jumps out at me is

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Speaker 9: the duality of his personality. If we look at the

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Speaker 9: room as a whole, you can tell there's that OCD

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Speaker 9: you know, part of his personality. But then you go

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Speaker 9: into his closet, look inside of his closet to the

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Speaker 9: left side that is completely disheveled, all of the receipts

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Speaker 9: there you go, All of that tells us a whole

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Speaker 9: other side of his personality. This tells us what the

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Speaker 9: girls were seeing. This is the hidden side. Of his life,

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Speaker 9: the secret life, as we call it. These are the

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Speaker 9: complaints that we're seeing here, not physically, but this is

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Speaker 9: his personality. It's all about control in the public persona

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Speaker 9: and then behind the scenes it's about violence. If you

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Speaker 9: look at the book, there's one book there the Ivory Tower,

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Speaker 9: on the floor in it that was found inside of

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Speaker 9: his chester of other items there that is about sexual

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Speaker 9: assault of college students. It's called Unsafe in the Ivory Tower.

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Speaker 9: If we look closely at that book all right there

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Speaker 9: to the far right, in the bottom right corner, that

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Speaker 9: book is about sexual assault about college students. Now go

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Speaker 9: do the math, right.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing it right now. I'm making a note of

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Speaker 2: everything you say. You know what's really interesting, Chris mcdunna.

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Speaker 2: And this isn't aside. This is how you prepare for trial.

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Speaker 2: You get with somebody. I try to get with somebody

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Speaker 2: that knows more than I do so you can hear

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Speaker 2: their ideas. See, I've looked at those books. I've looked

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Speaker 2: at the titles. But you point out a book about

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Speaker 2: sex assault in the Unsafe in the Ivory Tower, how

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Speaker 2: female coeds are sex assaulted. It's not just a coincidence.

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Speaker 2: There is no coincidence in criminal law. These are all

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Speaker 2: tutorials for Brian Koberger, but nobody put together the puzzle pieces,

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Speaker 2: and now four students are dead. You know, Joe Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 2: Professor Forensics and a forensic expert. Joe Scott, You've been

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Speaker 2: to a million scenes and I can't explain why, but

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Speaker 2: when I would go to a crime scene, I would

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Speaker 2: want to just sit down and have everybody get out

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Speaker 2: of the room so I could just sit there.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know what I was.

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Speaker 2: Looking for, but I needed it to be quiet so

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Speaker 2: I could just look and see what I could see.

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Speaker 1: And learn what I could learn, and.

441
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 2: Feel what I could feel in a crime saint like

442
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 2: Coburger's bleak apartment. And what about that computer screen, Joe

443
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 2: Scott remember how he quote helped his colleague. Helped his

444
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 2: colleague put in her Wi Fi security cams so he

445
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 2: could have access and watch her walk around her apartment

446
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 2: naked or half naked, or just sitting there watching TV

447
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 2: or making out with their boyfriend.

448
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: I don't know what he was watching.

449
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 2: Can you imagine the hours he's spent on that computer.

450
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 2: Just look at the chair, look at the stark position.

451
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not a shrink, but this is telling

452
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 2: me something. And look at the bed one pillow. I

453
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 2: guarantee you he makes the bed up and at night

454
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 2: just get it said on his side and leaves the

455
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 2: rest made up and sleeps on the one little area.

456
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 2: See how one side is a little messed up and

457
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 2: the other side isn't He just like sleeps in one

458
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 2: spot by his computer. I mean, there's no way that

459
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: anyone would have known all this, but we're learning all

460
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 2: this in retrospect. Washington State knew a lot, but we're

461
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 2: learning a lot, and none.

462
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: Of it's good. Joe Scott, No it's not.

463
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 10: And listen, yeah, I can't imagine. I don't want to

464
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 10: imagine what he was viewing on that computer, particularly when

465
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 10: you think about this observable, you know, kind of track

466
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 10: that he was on where he goes into this woman's

467
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 10: apartment and tells her that he's going to assist her

468
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 10: with her security system. Lord only knows where that went.

469
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 10: And sitting around you know, to me, Nancy, this this

470
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 10: speaks to me as this guy is mission oriented and

471
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 10: his mission is to reak total and complete havoc. You're

472
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 10: showing the text here I'm wondering where his forensics text

473
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 10: are as well, you know, because for so long people

474
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 10: had kind of pushed out this idea that he is this,

475
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 10: and you know, I took great exception of this that

476
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 10: because he's studying criminology, that he's a forensics expert and

477
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 10: those two things. You can't conflate those two things. But

478
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 10: I would assume that he had texts relative to that

479
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 10: as well to help him kind of work through this

480
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 10: idea that I'm going to be this master criminal. He's

481
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 10: not trying to edify himself by studying these texts in

482
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 10: any way. He's using this. He's using this as a

483
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 10: means in order to understand what he needs to do

484
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 10: in order to get to certain points along this journey

485
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 10: of horror that he's on.

486
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 11: For me.

487
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 10: For me personally, one of the things that I would

488
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 10: really like to try to understand is not only what

489
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,479
Speaker 10: happened in Pullman, Washington. I hope, I true hope with

490
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 10: everything in my being, that they're going back to the

491
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 10: sales Nancy, that they're taking a long look at everything

492
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 10: that he got involved in in Pennsylvania and see if

493
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 10: there is anything else out there that is very disturbing

494
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 10: where he was interacting with people. I want to know

495
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 10: if there's any cold cases around that proximity, because this

496
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 10: is something he's been thinking about for a while. And

497
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 10: to start off, well, yeah, four homicide, four homicides. I

498
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 10: just think that there's.

499
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 2: He went from zero to one twenty mph overnight. Hey,

500
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 2: Cidy sign er, Joe Scott just says something that jogged

501
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 2: my memory. He says to Coburger, says to his female coworker,

502
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 2: let me help you.

503
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to help you set up your WiFi.

504
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 2: So he could watch her naked or half naked or

505
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 2: cooking or whatever she's doing in her place.

506
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: Same words and echo.

507
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: I'm gonna help you. That's what he said to the

508
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 2: murder victim before he butchered her. Another thing that you

509
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,719
Speaker 2: said earlier, Sidney Center, Sydney Summer Crime Stories.

510
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: Investigative reporter joining us that he had a thin social.

511
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 2: Life, as evidenced by his devices, explain.

512
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 11: Well, we've learned that Brian Koberger only had eighteen contacts

513
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 11: saved in his phone. I cannot imagine by the twenty

514
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 11: seven year old when this first started, only having eighteen

515
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 11: people saved in your phone and most of those contacts

516
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 11: didn't even have names associated with them. That's what I

517
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 11: found even more odd about this that oh girl, I

518
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 11: went jogging with another girl, I went jogging with red hair.

519
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 11: So the eighteen contacts that he does have saved in

520
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 11: his phone, many of those are extremely impersonal, somebody who

521
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 11: maybe met once or twice. So it just goes to

522
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 11: show that he was very socially in it and speaking

523
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 11: on the phone for hours with his parents every single day.

524
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 11: There's evidence that he would call them and talk to

525
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 11: them until he fell asleep every single day, and that

526
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 11: is just again extremely odd for a twenty seven year

527
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 11: old in a PhD program.

528
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 2: DoD to Mathony Marshall, I named his shrink and I

529
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 2: named one fast hit me well.

530
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 5: The fact that he didn't have their real names in

531
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 5: the phone suggests that he was already trying to depersonalize

532
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 5: potential victims, right, I said earlier, sexual attraction only to

533
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 5: non consenting adults. If they become real, then he has

534
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,479
Speaker 5: to relate to them. He just wants to have power

535
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 5: over people, and aggression is such a core part of

536
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 5: that personality. I bet he talked to his parents for

537
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 5: hours because that was the only place he could even

538
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 5: feel a semblance of an attachment, right, he probably didn't

539
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 5: feel attached to anybody.

540
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,959
Speaker 2: Contort thing doctor Bethany to keep the phone open and

541
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: talk to your mom until you fall asleep. It's like

542
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 2: it's or holding onto you.

543
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, having your little binkie in your mouth exactly.

544
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 5: And that computer in his room, I just can't stop

545
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 5: looking at it and wondering what else is in there?

546
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 5: Are there other pictures he took of non consenting adults

547
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 5: in public? Like was he going into bathrooms and putting

548
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 5: the you know, the mirror and the camera into the

549
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 5: stall or you know, I would be surprised if this

550
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:46,479
Speaker 5: perverse activity was just isolated to the one professor and

551
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 5: to the students and to the people in the bars

552
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 5: and restaurants. He had to have been doing it everywhere.

553
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: That's a scary thought.

554
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: I wonder if bathrooms at these restaurants and where he

555
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 2: worked had been checked for you know, like the tiny

556
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 2: cameras they need to check.

557
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: I don't know if they've thought of that yet.

558
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 2: Okay, joining me now, veterans trial lawyer Philip Dubay joining

559
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 2: us the LA jurisdiction. Okay, Dubai, I guess now you're

560
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 2: going to tell me that none of this amounts to

561
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: a hill of beans.

562
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 5: Right, not even close.

563
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 13: I mean, are you going to say that because he's

564
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 13: living in an austere apartment as a starving student, basically

565
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 13: not having a pot or a window is a foreshadow

566
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 13: of a quadruple homicide? I mean, I look back at

567
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 13: my own college days and those days we had a

568
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 13: beanbag chair and a lawn chair in our living room. Seriously,

569
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 13: and to suggest it because he has a quote unquote

570
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 13: bag of apples, that it's a sign of lowliness or

571
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 13: a sign of sexual fatigue or some other type of psych.

572
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 1: Said at all what we said, Dubai.

573
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 2: Look, you can do your legal analysis, your defense related

574
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 2: analysis through your your lens.

575
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: But at least get it straight.

576
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 2: We were talking about the sparsity of items in his

577
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: fridge and the way that things were organized neatly, and

578
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:18,520
Speaker 2: the austerity of his apartment and the lack of any

579
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 2: connection to anybody another human. Did you see his mom

580
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 2: and dad in a frame photo by his bed, or

581
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,240
Speaker 2: a lot of pieces of paper and memories and ticket

582
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 2: stubs and photos stuck to his wall with Scotch tape.

583
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 1: Uh huh? No, No, he's like a robot.

584
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 2: He's a machine, a killing machine, and it means something,

585
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 2: whether you want to admit it or not, it means something.

586
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 13: The guy's on the spectrum, don't you remember he has

587
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 13: as birds. You know what that is. It's a social

588
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,720
Speaker 13: awkward news. He doesn't know how to relate to other people.

589
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 13: He's alienated himself. Nobody wants to be around the guy,

590
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 13: let alone give them their telephone number and address to

591
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 13: be it as a contact to his phone. That is

592
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 13: one of the symptoms of aspergers. They don't have a

593
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 13: social network or people in their orbit. So if you

594
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 13: were to look at it from afar, yeah, compared to

595
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 13: other healthy, able, working, assiduous college students, he stands out.

596
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 13: But to suggest that this is all a symptom or

597
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:26,280
Speaker 13: a foreshadow of a quadruple homicide, that is psychobabble.

598
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 6: The families of Madison Mogan and Ethan Chapin are suing

599
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 6: Moscow over the release of hundreds of crime scene photos

600
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,919
Speaker 6: and video of the first response to eleven twenty two

601
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 6: King Road. Their attorney claims many of the photos constitute

602
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 6: an unwarned invasion of privacy. Leander James says blurring on

603
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 6: the images isn't effective and blood is still visible on

604
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 6: floors and walls, and footage sounds of sobbing friends and

605
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 6: roommates are incredibly traumatizing for the families. James argues the

606
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 6: crime has been extremely sensationalized and harrowing images have now

607
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 6: been plastered across the Internet, news channels and social media,

608
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 6: often for economic game.

609
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 2: Straight out to Susan Hendrix joining US investigative journalist on

610
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: the case. Okay, so now the family that's still dealing

611
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 2: with the murder, the brutal murder of their children, are

612
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 2: having to take on a fight.

613
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: So these vile photos are not released. Why would they

614
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: be released?

615
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 2: I mean somebody files a for you request freedom of information.

616
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: I so what exactly.

617
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 7: Stacy Chapin, Ethan Chapin's mom and also Matty Mugen's family

618
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 7: filed this and said it opens a wound. This is

619
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 7: what Stacy said. That's not healed yet. In Dell fin Nancy,

620
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 7: they were sealed. Sadly, there was a leak of the

621
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 7: crime scene photos early on, but the autopsy sealed decision

622
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 7: made by Judge Frank goul and I think it should

623
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 7: be made here. But there was a hearing on this,

624
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 7: and the judge said that you will make a decision

625
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:55,959
Speaker 7: down the road.

626
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 5: So I hope. So, I mean, why do we have.

627
00:36:58,040 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: To see that exactly?

628
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I I get it that when a case

629
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 2: you're seeing some of the photos that have been released.

630
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: We are not showing bloody photos.

631
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 2: Of the victim's blood in the crime scene the home

632
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: on King Road. The families have been through enough, not

633
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 2: only that, not only that, now witnesses are being threatened,

634
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 2: death threatened.

635
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: Listen, Judge Hipler.

636
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 6: Weighing redaction, attorneys say witnesses name should remain private, as

637
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 6: witnesses have been threatened and stocked, hiring private security and

638
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 6: relocating from their homes. In particular, attorneys believe Coberger's alternate

639
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 6: perpetrators should be kept from the public. Hitpler asked for

640
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 6: the information on each intended redaction, including their roles in

641
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 6: the case and whether they have already been identified in

642
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 6: the media.

643
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 2: Okay, Sidney Sumner, Crime Story's investigative reporter, also on the

644
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 2: Coburger case, I take it that the well, there have

645
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 2: been a lot of threats on witnesses, but the witnesses

646
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 2: that are getting the most serious threats are the ones

647
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 2: that defense wanted to use as some other dude did

648
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 2: it scapegoat and they knew all along it wasn't true.

649
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 11: That is correct. That is those are the witnesses that

650
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:27,760
Speaker 11: attorneys on both sides are most concerned about getting any

651
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 11: kind of threat or having safety concerns with their names

652
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 11: being made public. And the defense at this point has

653
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 11: admitted that those people were never involved in this crime

654
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 11: and this was simply a defense. They were trying to

655
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 11: point the finger elsewhere to say it was not Brian

656
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 11: Coburger that committed this crime. So that has been disproven.

657
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 11: But we know how many people support Brian Coberger. We

658
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 11: saw the Reddit threads, we saw the Facebook groups trying

659
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 11: to prove Brian coburgers in a sense, So they want

660
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 11: to protect those people that were named in this alternate

661
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,919
Speaker 11: perpetrator theory and make sure their names are not linked

662
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 11: to the public so no one can do anything to

663
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 11: put those men in harsh way.

664
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, doctor Bethanie Marshall, the victims'

665
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 2: families call them the quote proburgers that are still going online.

666
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 2: I said every time I dare to look at social

667
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 2: media that he was framed they're actually death threatening witnesses,

668
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 2: especially threats going.

669
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: To some other dude did it scapegoat?

670
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 2: The defense came up with, knowing full well Coburger committed

671
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 2: the murderers. They were going to blame somebody else in

672
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 2: open court and it leaked out and now the scapegoats

673
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,880
Speaker 2: are getting threat What is Nancy these people?

674
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 9: Do?

675
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 1: You know?

676
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 5: Three to five percent of the general population has the

677
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 5: same personality disorder that Coburger has, so it's not surprising

678
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 5: to me that he has this huge following. Coburger probably

679
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 5: did what his minions or followers wish they could have

680
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 5: done themselves. They just don't have the courage to do it, Nancy,

681
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 5: So he's their king. They are pro Burger, and they

682
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 5: probably are harassing anybody who they feel is going to

683
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 5: bring the king down. That's just what's happening here.

684
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 2: And Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, I can't stress enough the

685
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 2: brutality of the crime scene photos. They're worse than any

686
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 2: so called slice and dice video you've ever seen, except

687
00:40:52,760 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 2: they're real. And to re victimize these victims and you

688
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 2: a horrible death that night and their families, I mean,

689
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 2: I can't convey the nature of these photos, Jo Scott.

690
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 10: It's very difficult to do that. Nancy, reflect back, just

691
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 10: for a moment. Do you remember being in pre trial

692
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 10: as a prosecutor and when we still had the old

693
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 10: format images and they would be spread out all over

694
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,959
Speaker 10: the table, and you're trying to decide what you're going

695
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 10: to use in order to describe what happened, all right,

696
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 10: and some of these images in our circumstances, you and

697
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 10: I over those years ago, you think, do I really

698
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 10: need to show this to the jury to get the

699
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 10: point across because we would have to use our discernment

700
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 10: in order to do that. Because some of these things

701
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 10: are so over the top, Nancy, I can't express this

702
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 10: enough to the viewing public. Why do you need to

703
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 10: see them outside of court? The thing has been adjudicated

704
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 10: at this point in time. There is no value in this.

705
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 10: No one is edified by this at all. And families

706
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 10: are being destroyed, they're being traumatized, they're having to live

707
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 10: through this over and over and over again. People don't understand.

708
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 10: You know, you could just be one of these parents

709
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 10: and you could be in a store and someone would

710
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 10: have seen this on the internet and they'll say, I

711
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 10: can't believe what happened to your child. I actually saw

712
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 10: the image. Just let that sink in.

713
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 9: Just check.

714
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: I can tell you one thing, Joe Scott.

715
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 2: Before I would introduce brutal photos like this, I would

716
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: absolutely clear the courtroom and warn the victims' families.

717
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 6: Brian Cobert wasn't always skinny, as surviving roommate Dylan Mortenson

718
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 6: said in her description of the mass perp. Golberger was

719
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 6: quite plumped before losing one hundred and thirty pounds just

720
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 6: in time for his sixteenth birthday. Goberger bragged about the

721
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 6: weight laws and a job application, claiming his dedication to

722
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 6: running and boxing qualified him for the part time security

723
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,720
Speaker 6: job at a school in his hometown's Pleasant Valley district.

724
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 2: Again, Doctor Bethany Marshall, I don't know what it means,

725
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 2: but it means something. Brian Cober obese then goes on

726
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 2: a crash diet. A crash oh my goodness, yes, okay,

727
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 2: a crash diet. It means something.

728
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: I don't know.

729
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 2: If it was to lure women, what does it mean?

730
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 2: The body image? How does that factor into this?

731
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 1: Well?

732
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 5: Antisocial personality disorder, which is used interchangeably with sociopathy and psychopathy.

733
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 5: It causes impulsivity and disregulation, meaning that people cannot control

734
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,800
Speaker 5: all of their emotions overwhelm them. So somebody who's disregulated

735
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 5: and impulsive is just going to eat anything that's not

736
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 5: nailed down. Okay, So he probably had to go into

737
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 5: this total starvation mode, vegan vegetarian mode to get the

738
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 5: weight off so he could predate on women. I mean,

739
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 5: you're right, he had to look great to lure women.

740
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 5: And what was this one of his first It was

741
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 5: as a security guard, a position of power. He was

742
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 5: already graduating to the next thing, which would be working

743
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 5: in an academic environment where he would have access to

744
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 5: women and could study criminology. So it had a dual purpose,

745
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 5: access to women and at the same time he was

746
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 5: learning and preparing for the upcoming crime.

747
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 2: You know, Chris McDonough, I'm thinking through all of these

748
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 2: red flags, the bleak apartment, the lack of contacts, the

749
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:39,760
Speaker 2: objectification of women he would put as a contact red hair.

750
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:43,879
Speaker 1: I'm trying to take it all in.

751
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 2: But one of the most disturbing is that Washington State University.

752
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: Knew they knew there was a big.

753
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 2: Problem when they heard about the Mersey's Coburger.

754
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 1: They knew, but they let him stay.

755
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 2: If they had fired him long before, maybe these murders

756
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 2: would not have happened.

757
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's a great point, Nancy. I mean, what did

758
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,280
Speaker 9: they know, right did they? They obviously had a PhD

759
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 9: file hire and deeper on complaints about Brian Coberger. And

760
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 9: also if we look back into his apartment for a minute,

761
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 9: you know, and this is his office here. You know,

762
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,920
Speaker 9: it's just such a bleak personality. But look at the

763
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,280
Speaker 9: Look at the birthday card to the left. It's Teddy

764
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 9: Roosevelt on a Torontosaurus Rex. And there's a comment on

765
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 9: that that says, this is basically your person your egos

766
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 9: and your personality. You know, carry a big stick. But

767
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 9: make sure you know you eat them. I eat right there,

768
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,919
Speaker 9: both of your egos. This is a whole whole other

769
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 9: lane for for doc to tell us about. But this

770
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 9: really is Brian Coberger, and other people saw it, and

771
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 9: WSU most definitely saw it.

772
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 2: Okay, DEBEI, what do you make of the Freedom of

773
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:09,879
Speaker 2: Information Act to release these brutal photos, the judges taking

774
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,440
Speaker 2: it under advisement. I don't say there's any way that

775
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,800
Speaker 2: you can redact out all of that gore.

776
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 13: No, And first of all, I don't even know who

777
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 13: would want it. I mean seriously, I mean what type

778
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 13: of carnography would the petitioner be into?

779
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: The freaks?

780
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, gore core is what I call it.

781
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 13: But make no mistake about it that just because somebody

782
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 13: files a petition to make these photos public doesn't mean

783
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 13: the court's just going to grant that petition. It's subject

784
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 13: to a balancing test where court has to balance the

785
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 13: public interest in disclosure against the privacy interests of the

786
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:49,280
Speaker 13: next of ken.

787
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,879
Speaker 9: And if you have a situation.

788
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 13: Where you can prevent trauma, preserve dignity, and prevent further

789
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 13: distribution of this type of carnage, of court can deny it.

790
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 13: There's no automatic right to this material. And frankly, I

791
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 13: could see somebody who's into this type of imagery further

792
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 13: disseminating it on the black market somewhere, maybe to share

793
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 13: in this type of gorecore, or to even propit from it.

794
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 13: Who in their right mind would even want this?

795
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, blood money, blood money, debey, you ask who is it?

796
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,399
Speaker 1: Probably nobody that you associate with.

797
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 2: It's uh, probably the same people that wanted Nicole Brown's

798
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 2: autopsy photos. Them, those people, and they do make money

799
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 2: off of it.

800
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: You know what, for once, debate for once.

801
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:43,240
Speaker 2: I pray that you are right and the two judges

802
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 2: involved in this matter will hear your voice tonight, debate

803
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 2: as we all join the victims families and ask the

804
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 2: judges please do not release these photos, these images, this

805
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 2: audio where you can hear crying and see what happened

806
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 2: to the victims. Please don't do this to their families.

807
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 2: Don't say the law compels. The law does not compel.

808
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 2: Doby was right. You are responsible for the release of

809
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 2: these photos. Judge, It's on you. As we wait for

810
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:30,120
Speaker 2: justice two unfold, we remember an American hero Officer Darren

811
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:39,360
Speaker 2: Burke's Dallas PD survived by his grieving mother, Sheri. American

812
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:47,839
Speaker 2: hero officer Darren Burke's rest in peace officer Nancy Grace

813
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 2: signing off goodbye friend,