1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. If 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: my name is Robert. 4 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 2: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: In the last episode, we discussed the power of dreams 6 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: to impact the waking world, with a particular focus on 7 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: times and places where the mystique of dreams seems to 8 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: have held particular sway over prominent intellectual and or theological 9 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: circles in a given society. So you know, what does 10 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: it mean for a people when the gateway of prophetic 11 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: dreaming is open wider and what factors seem to contribute 12 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: to these upticks in dream fascination In particular, In the 13 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: last episode, we discussed European Romanticism in the eighteenth and 14 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: nineteenth centuries, as discussed by authors Lynn A. Strove and 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: Jennerer Ford in their respective works. In this episode, we're 16 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: going to continue looking at some of the times and 17 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: places that Struve singles out in her twenty nineteen book 18 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: The Dreaming Mind and the End of the Ming World, 19 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: drawing in additional sources as well. Now, I believe the 20 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: plan is to get into Struve's thoughts on the late 21 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: ning Dynasty dream culture in Part three of this series. 22 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: But to kick things off here, I thought we might 23 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: discuss another movement another time in place that she highlights, 24 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: and that is Quakerism of the mid seventeenth century, with 25 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: religious and political strife in England, pushing immigrants out, religious 26 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: dissenters out of England and into a new hotbed of 27 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: religious and political strife in the New World. Now, I 28 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: don't know, this is definitely one of those cases, and 29 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: this is going to continue to be the case with 30 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: some of the examples we draw on. Certainly we would 31 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: love to hear from anyone out there who has actual 32 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: roots in Quakerism. I know I have a cousin that 33 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: is a Quaker. So this is very quake Quakerism still 34 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: is very much alive, but we're going to be dealing 35 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: with mid seventeenth century Quakerism in particular. Here Streuve points 36 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: out that the majority of Puritans of the time period 37 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 1: considered Quakes heretical. It rejected the traditional Puritan power structure 38 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: in favor of a meeting structure where anyone in the 39 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: group could openly share their own account of seeking God 40 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: through Christ, and accounts of dreams factored into these oral presentations, 41 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 1: and sometimes these were written down as well. Quaker dream 42 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: testimonials lost much of their prophetic qualities, but continued to 43 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: be important into the nineteenth century. 44 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: So I tried to do some digging to learn a 45 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 2: bit more about the role of dreams in Quaker history 46 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 2: and the more general historical context, and I came across 47 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 2: a lot of references to what looks like a highly 48 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: relevant and well regarded academic book on the subject. It's 49 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: by Carla Jerona called Night Journeys The Power of Dreams 50 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 2: in Transatlantic Quaker Culture, University of Virginia Press in two 51 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 2: thousand and four. I was not able to read this 52 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 2: book itself, but I read a couple of academic reviews 53 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: of it to get a sense of its arguments and 54 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: major themes. So one of the reviews I'm going to 55 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 2: reference was by Robert Cox in the Journal of the 56 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 2: Early Republic Winter two thousand and five, and the other 57 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 2: was by Michelle Lisa Tartar in the Journal of Quaker 58 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 2: Studies two thousand and seven. But before I get into 59 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: this book directly, I think it'd be good to do 60 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 2: a little bit of background on the Quakers. So the 61 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: Quakers are officially known as the Religious Society of Friends, 62 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 2: and this tradition was founded in England in the mid 63 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 2: seventeenth century by a man named George Fox. So I 64 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: was reading about him in a book excerpt published in 65 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: The New York Times by historian named James Walvin. The 66 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 2: book is called The Quakers, Money and Morals. And before 67 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 2: going any further, I just have to note a physical 68 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: detail Waldning includes in the description of George Fox, which 69 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: is that he was described at the time as a 70 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: man with hair like rats tails. 71 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: I'm having trouble picturing that, because rats tales don't really 72 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: look like hair hair. They are by their very nature hairless. 73 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: Maybe he had kind of like a wet look and 74 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: had kind of like white or grayish hair. 75 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 2: Perhaps it was an ambiguous evocation for me as well, 76 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 2: But I'll keep trying to picture it as we go on. 77 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,919 Speaker 2: So George Fox was born in sixteen twenty four. He 78 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 2: was the son of devout Puritan parents in Leicestershire, which 79 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 2: is a city in the English Midlands. His father was 80 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 2: a somewhat wealthy weaver, and in sixteen forty three George 81 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 2: Fox had an unpleasant experience seeing friends drinking alcohol at 82 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 2: a local fair, and so the teenage Fox, after this experience, 83 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,119 Speaker 2: heard the voice of God Almighty telling him to leave home, 84 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 2: abandon his friend's and in his family, and seek the truth. 85 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 2: And after this he spent several years a sort of itinerant, 86 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: just wandering the country with his Bible in hand, seeking 87 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 2: enlightenment of some sort, and apparently harassing local priests and 88 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 2: ministers along the way. One example is in sixteen forty 89 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 2: nine he was arrested and jailed for getting up in 90 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 2: the middle of a church service in Nottingham and arguing 91 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 2: with the minister about his interpretation of the Bible. Now, 92 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 2: in defining Fox's early preachings and the Quaker's early beliefs, 93 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 2: it's kind of interesting because several sources I've read mentioned 94 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 2: that they're more easily defined in opposition to other beliefs 95 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 2: than in the positive substance of themselves. But one thing 96 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 2: seems to be that Fox's theology developed to include a 97 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 2: belief in the necessity of inner spiritual rebirth. Sometimes this 98 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 2: is known as born again theology. It was very much 99 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 2: about having the inner light of God or the inner 100 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 2: light of Christ revealed within yourself and experiencing God directly, 101 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 2: and Fox also came to preach a message that was 102 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: basically against the institutional structure of Christianity. It seems Fox's 103 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,719 Speaker 2: unique thesis was that you do not need a church 104 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,720 Speaker 2: or a congregation or a cleric to act as any 105 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 2: kind of intermediary or interpreter between you and God, that 106 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 2: you should interact with God honestly and directly on your 107 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 2: own terms. 108 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,359 Speaker 1: And I think already we can see how this is 109 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: going to line up with the importance of dreams, the 110 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: idea that there's some sort of direct communication. We saw 111 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: that already with the example of Fox having heard the 112 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: voice of God. And as we've been discussing already in 113 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: this series, there's this longstanding human tradition of potentially interpreting 114 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: dreams as such as well. 115 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,359 Speaker 2: That's right, so we will get there. But another thing 116 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 2: I should note before we move on is that this 117 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 2: is happening in England in the sixteen forties, which is 118 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 2: the same time as the English Civil War, or directly 119 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 2: after the English Civil War, in the Interregnum period, and 120 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 2: this is a time of major change, political, social, cultural 121 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 2: upheaval in England. I want to read a brief passage 122 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 2: from Walven summarizing the cultural climate in England at the time, 123 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 2: quote Fox was not alone in suffering turmoil in the 124 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 2: sixteen forties. The entire nation was racked by personal and 125 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 2: social agitations that had been whipped up by a bloody 126 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 2: and vengeful civil war. That decade and the interregnum years 127 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: of the sixteen fifties formed what Christopher Hill has described 128 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 2: as the greatest upheaval in English history. Old assumptions and beliefs, 129 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: old certainties were shattered by the convulsion of religious and 130 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 2: political freedoms, which had scarred most people in some way 131 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 2: or other. The traditional acceptance that all English people belong 132 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 2: to the National Church and must worship as a matter 133 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 2: of obligation was destroyed forever. And another feature of this 134 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: period that Walvin notes is that this is a time 135 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: when there was a sudden dissolution of the strict censorship 136 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: laws that had up until then controlled the printed word. 137 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 2: There was kind of a sudden explosion in different kinds 138 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 2: of materials that could be disseminated in print, including books 139 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: and tracts that advocated radical and unorthodox points of view 140 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: in civil and religious life. Now, the people around George 141 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 2: Fox when he was traveling and preaching in the sixteen 142 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 2: forties or sixteen fifties. These would mostly include members of 143 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 2: the Church of England, the mainstream Protestant church in England 144 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,839 Speaker 2: at the time, and also Puritans, people who dissented from, 145 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 2: or at least wanted to reform the Church of England, 146 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 2: largely on the grounds are to oversimplify, but largely on 147 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 2: the grounds that it was not removed enough from its 148 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 2: Roman Catholic roots and not sufficiently based on Sola scriptura. 149 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 2: That Church of England was not Protestant enough. I mentioned 150 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 2: that Fox was jailed at least one time for interrupting 151 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 2: a church meeting in Nottingham. He was jailed other times, 152 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: I think for blasphemy of various sorts. Fox made a 153 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 2: lot of people angry, but he also won a lot 154 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 2: of converts, if that's the right word. At least you 155 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 2: could say he persuaded a lot of people to see 156 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: their relationship with God in his way, and his movement 157 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 2: spread rapidly in England and also to the colonies in 158 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 2: North America in the sixteen fifties. In fact, the colony 159 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 2: of Pennsylvania was founded by William Penn, who was a 160 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 2: wealthy English Quaker to serve as a safe haven for 161 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 2: Quakers who were sometimes viciously persecuted in England. Now once again, 162 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,839 Speaker 2: it's sometimes easier to say what Quakers don't believe than 163 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 2: what exactly they do believe. But though there's some variation, overall, 164 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 2: Quakers were known for rejecting hierarchy and rejecting the enforcement 165 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 2: of orthodoxy and religious matters, and they were also known, 166 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 2: though this might not have been a direct result of 167 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 2: their theology, they were known for at certain times, but 168 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 2: not always, having many members who supported radical social and 169 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 2: political causes such as pacifism, advocating for women's rights, and 170 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 2: the abolition of slavery. One thing that I think is 171 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 2: worth noting with relevance to the role of dreaming is 172 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 2: the format of Quaker religious meetings, which very often were 173 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 2: just sort of like gatherings of the religious society of Friends, 174 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 2: the friends that would typically allow anyone to speak men 175 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: and women alike, rather than just having a minister sermonized 176 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 2: top down to the congregation. 177 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I believe streve mentions that of the various 178 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: written dream reports that would survive, a lot of these 179 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: were by women. 180 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: That's right. So that brings us back to a couple 181 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 2: of the reviews I wanted to talk about of that 182 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 2: book by Karla Girona, Night Journeys, The Power of Dreams 183 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 2: in Transatlantic Quaker Culture. Not only did early Quakers believe 184 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 2: that dreams contain and genuine revelatory prophetic content, the culture 185 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 2: of Quakerism in the North American colonies was substantially downstream 186 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 2: from the contents of dreams, or what they might call 187 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 2: night journeys. 188 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: I don't know why night journeys is just such a cool 189 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 1: term for dreams. I mean, it just ties in with 190 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: a lot of what we're talking about here, But then 191 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 1: it also sounds like it could be like an eighties 192 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: rock anthem. I don't know. 193 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 2: Where the dream warriors don't want to dream no more, 194 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 2: except they did want to dream more. They in fact, 195 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 2: wanted to dream quite a lot and discuss all their dreams. 196 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 2: So Cox sort of summarizes Jerona's point as quote, dreams 197 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 2: are not only models of culture, they are models for it. 198 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 2: And I think a way of understanding this better is 199 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 2: that while we today often think of dreams as simple 200 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 2: reflections of individual internal psychological states and fixations, in the 201 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 2: case of early American Quakerism, during the colonial and revolutionary periods, 202 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 2: dreams were quote a collective endeavor. So the way I 203 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 2: understand it is that for these seventeenth and eighteenth century 204 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 2: Quakers there was not only an emphasis placed on prophetic 205 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 2: visions received through dreams, but the development of a collaborative 206 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 2: prophetic dream culture where stories of other Quakers prophetic dreams 207 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 2: would be shared either in meetings or disseminated and circulated 208 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 2: in print, and then interpreted by the community. Coxwrites, quote 209 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 2: more than any of their sectarian peers, Quakers developed a 210 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: uniquely intense practice of recording and circulating their prophetic dreams 211 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 2: within their meetings and beyond, each minister sharing in the 212 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 2: discussion and interpretation, each dreamer and each auditor imparting his 213 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 2: or her own shades of meaning, dialectically collectively shaping a 214 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 2: common Quaker identity in the problem. So this really captured 215 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 2: by imagination because it's sort of describing a scenario where 216 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 2: dreams are such a common topic of conversation and a 217 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 2: common subject of printed material circulated within the Quaker community 218 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 2: that they really kind of become a major facet of 219 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 2: what the culture is, a lot of what it meant 220 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:27,239 Speaker 2: to be a Quaker in these times came from discussing 221 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 2: dreams and what you thought you learned from them. 222 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, which is something that I honestly did not know 223 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: about Quakerism until we started getting into this research here. 224 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: But there's another side to it too, which is, as 225 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 2: with many religions that contain the possibility of individual revelation, 226 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 2: whether that's through dreams or visions, or you know, you 227 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 2: believe in God speaks to you directly or whatever, there's 228 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 2: evidence of a kind of push and pull effect with 229 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 2: radical beliefs emerging through supposedly prophetic visions and dreams, and 230 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 2: then kind of taming or watering down process that comes 231 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 2: through interpretation or through selective publication. So if you think 232 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 2: about it, there's kind of an inherent tension between the 233 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 2: wild individual agency of democratized dream revelation. Again, thinking like 234 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 2: somebody could have a dream and share it with us, 235 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 2: and that may well be God himself speaking to us. 236 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 2: There's that, and then there's also just like the practical 237 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 2: necessities of maintaining a stable social group, or the self 238 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 2: interested motives of leaders in maintaining their positions of power. 239 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's easy to imagine for any of 240 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: you out there who are a part of say like 241 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: a modern Protestant or Catholic denomination, Like imagine going into 242 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: church one day and it being announced, Okay, from now on, 243 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: starting right now, everybody can have an input on what 244 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: we believe and what our individual relationship with God happens 245 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: to be. And also a second part of that, dreams 246 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: count as well. Whatever's happening in your dreams, bring that 247 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: into the conversation. Like I think for people who who 248 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: have not had had any either aspect of this be 249 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: part of their religious and organized religious experience, that would 250 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: seem chaotic. That would that you would wonder what does 251 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: that mean that my faith is now going to be 252 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: like a Wikipedia article where anyone can edit it and 253 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: they can cite dreams, or is it going to be 254 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: something to where organically something will emerge to sort of 255 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: keep it in check, kind of like you see with 256 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: many mainstream Wikipedia pages. 257 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 2: But there's another layer of difficulty there too, because it's 258 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 2: not just like, oh, William had this opinion about what 259 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 2: we should believe, and that comes from William. Beliefs potentially 260 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 2: come directly from the divine. The creator of the universe 261 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,119 Speaker 2: is telling you this through your dreams. 262 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, when anyone in a given congregation, any given group, 263 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: is opened up to the like direct communications from the 264 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: divine or you know, certainly things that are interpreted or 265 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: reinterpreted or presented as such. Yeah, that brings a whole 266 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: new way to everything. 267 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 2: Now, it's one thing if these supposed revelations are just 268 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 2: about you know, theological beliefs, understanding of the nature of 269 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 2: Christ or something. Not to say that's not important, but 270 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 2: that's you know, a different kind of subject matter than 271 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 2: dream revelations supposedly from God that are things like maybe 272 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 2: we should overthrow the government, or maybe we should all 273 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 2: stop going to work, or something like that. Where it 274 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 2: turns out that a lot of these early dream revelations 275 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 2: in Quaker friends meetings did have direct political connotations and 276 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 2: direct political implications. There was often ay for dreams of 277 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 2: the early Quakers to be interpreted as granting license to 278 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 2: revolt against church and state, and one thing documented in 279 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 2: this book is that in response, influential Quaker ministers often 280 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 2: kind of counteracted these radical explosions of dream revelation that 281 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 2: threatened political or social stability by guiding collaborative dream work 282 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 2: sessions and by controlling the publication of prophetic dreams to 283 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 2: sort of like steer them toward different interpretations, often having 284 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 2: more to do with individual morality and regulation of personal 285 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 2: behavior rather than having these radical political implications. And this 286 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 2: was especially true apparently for the dreams of women. To 287 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 2: illustrate this, I'm going to quote from the review by 288 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 2: Lisa Tarder now, who writes, quote, At the beginning of 289 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 2: the Quaker movement, such dreamings were experienced and expressed as 290 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 2: apocalyptic prophesying, replete with symbolic language, which they promoted friends 291 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 2: religious enthusiasm, often attacked political leaders and addressed contemporary issues, 292 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 2: similar to their public tradition of prophesying. Seventeenth century friends 293 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 2: shared their visions and dreams quite often and in public. 294 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 2: But then by the eighteenth century there was a transition 295 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 2: to a more corporate dream work within Quaker culture that 296 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,120 Speaker 2: was facilitated by leaders of specific Quaker groups who assumed 297 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 2: control of the publishing of these dreams, and they regulated 298 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 2: and sort of censored how dreams were discussed in Quaker print. 299 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 2: Tartar writes, quote. No longer confrontational or enthusiastic, this newly 300 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 2: shaped corpus of dreams sought to regulate Quaker behavior and 301 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 2: self discipline was more introspective in nature and focused on 302 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 2: the individual, but extended to community wide meaning. And so 303 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 2: she says that leaders at the time saw dreams as 304 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 2: powerful tools that like, if you selected the ones to 305 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 2: publish and share with other Quaker groups, and if you 306 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 2: interpreted them the right way, they could be used to 307 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 2: encourage unity among the friends, to make everybody sort of 308 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 2: like you know, fit together and function well as a 309 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 2: social group. But you had to be careful to avoid 310 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 2: letting prophetic dreams rock the boat too much, basically, And 311 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 2: this is interesting to me because it seems this would 312 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 2: probably be the case for any religion that allows new 313 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 2: beliefs or new theology to evolve from individual direct experiences 314 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 2: that people have, whether that's they believe to be waking 315 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,199 Speaker 2: visions or just sort of verbal revelations God speaking to 316 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 2: people or through dreams. There's always going to be this 317 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 2: battle going on within a religious culture that believes in 318 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 2: these kinds of revelations. Anyone can present the contents of 319 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 2: their own mind and their own imagination as a kind 320 00:19:55,480 --> 00:20:00,120 Speaker 2: of new scripture carrying the terrifying authority of the Almighty. 321 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 2: But then these dreams have to be quote interpreted, and 322 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 2: there will be various pressures guiding that process of interpretation, 323 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 2: often trying to resist the radical authority that leaps like 324 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 2: lightning out of the mind of a single parishioner. 325 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is fascinating, and I mean you can even 326 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 1: compare it to to situations where individual ideas and opinions 327 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: within a given movement or a given group, you know, 328 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: are not tied to dreams and visions. But even in 329 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 1: those situations, like say like a protest environment environment, like 330 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: a protest movement, is there going to be an effort 331 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: to sort of amplify certain voices and demands within that group? 332 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: Is there going to be an effort to like to 333 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,239 Speaker 1: lessen the impact of other ideas? And then and then 334 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: also how do you make it all actionable? Like what 335 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: ultimately is the sort of the what are you going 336 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,679 Speaker 1: to end up nailing to the church doors? In other words? 337 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 1: You know, mm hmm, But it is interesting, yeah, that 338 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: you bring up like through publication and selective publication, there 339 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: is kind of like a theological hierarchy that comes into 340 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: play here, determining exactly what sort of gets presented, what 341 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 1: actually gets put forth For further discussion. 342 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 343 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: Struve in her book rights that in the cases she covers, 344 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: including those early on involving Euro American dream mystique and 345 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: also the example get to here in a minute, there 346 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: is ultimately a trichotomy of opinions concerning the nature of dreams, 347 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: fed by various influences, including philosophy, religious doctrine, and folklore. 348 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: And they are one dreams as residue of thought and 349 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: or byproducts of bodily processes. We've just we've talked about that. 350 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: The second area dreams is seen as being caused by 351 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: demonic or satanic forces. And then three, in rare cases 352 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: with exceptional individuals, they are divine visions or messages. And 353 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: with the Quaker example, of course, we see item number 354 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 1: three taken and democratized. It's no longer the chosen few 355 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: who have the vision. It's everyone who has insight into 356 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: the vision, everyone who's potentially hearing the words of God. 357 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is interesting, and it seems like so Struve 358 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 2: is saying with those that trichotomy you mentioned basically that 359 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 2: every place you look in history there is sort of 360 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 2: a three way understanding of dreams, where there's some understanding 361 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 2: that they might just be essentially natural, you know, nothing 362 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 2: much to them. They're either something arising from the digestion 363 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 2: of beef in your gut, or they're just what you 364 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 2: were thinking about in the day. Second thing is they're 365 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 2: from an evil spiritual entity, and the third is they're 366 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 2: from a good spiritual entity. And so yeah, it seems 367 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 2: like the Quakers really opened the floodgates on option number three. 368 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it does make me wonder like today are 369 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: we are we still living in an age where predominantly 370 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 1: the floodgates are open on item one, like like they 371 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: are we in? You know, can I this doesn't cover everybody. 372 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,400 Speaker 1: You're gonna still have certain areas and parts of society 373 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: where two and three are gonna have more weight. But 374 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: for the most part, yeah, do we just sort of 375 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: default too? Well? You know, I shouldn't have eaten that potato, 376 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: or I shouldn't have like in my case just the 377 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: other night, shouldn't have watched that horror movie. Messed up 378 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: my dreams all night long, gave me a terrible night 379 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: of sleep. But I'm not blaming it on a satanic force, 380 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: but true what chimes in on this idea of like 381 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: you know prophetic dreams and how they're managed, and she 382 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: says that yeah. It then falls to authority figures to 383 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: employ these categories as needed to quote protect their respective 384 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: creeds against challenges to orthodoxy from the random mental effusions 385 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: of neophytes. So that means that, you know, in more 386 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: sort of balanced situations, if someone's saying, hey, God spoke 387 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: to me in a dream, then you would have someone 388 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: in a position to say so, come forward and say, well, 389 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: I don't know that that's God's voice. Perhaps that is 390 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 1: the potato you ate, or you know, there are other 391 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: reasons we have the dreams that we have and perhaps 392 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: that's what it was, or even potentially dipping into number 393 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: two and saying, you know, there are other forces that 394 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: may influence our dreams and they are not all divine. 395 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 2: Now, one last thing I think is worth emphasizing about 396 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 2: the Quakers is I think Struve selects them because they 397 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 2: do conform to her general idea that times and places 398 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 2: where there is a sudden, sudden profusion of writing about dreams. 399 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 2: This often coincides with times of extreme social and cultural change, 400 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 2: where there's a lot of like churn and who has 401 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 2: power and there's a lot of uncertainty and anxiety, which 402 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 2: again would have been true about England in the sixteen forties. 403 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 2: That remember that passage from Walvin about like it being 404 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 2: the greatest time of upheaval and English history. 405 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so you can definitely see those pressures in place. 406 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: And then yeah, and then not only on the bridge 407 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: side of the ocean, but then once they get to 408 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: the new world, like, yeah, they are all sorts of 409 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: new stresses and problems. Like it is not it is 410 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: not just this world of new opportunity. Obviously there are 411 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 1: there's you know, an indigenous population, there are all these 412 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: other groups. There's just sort of the you know, the 413 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: potentially harsh nature of the reality of colonial life and 414 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: so forth. Now, with all of that in mind, it's 415 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: it's interesting that one of the other main examples that 416 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: she makes in the book that Struth makes concerns sufism 417 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: in the Ottoman Empire. And as we get into this 418 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 1: here and discuss it, I think it'll become like more 419 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: obvious how this particular example falls in line with what 420 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: we've been discussing, but also some of the things that 421 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: seem to make it unique if I'm understanding everything correctly, 422 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: So dreams are of great importance in Islam, especially as 423 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: referenced in the Qur'an and the revelations of the prophet Muhammad. 424 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: In Sufism, a more mystical branch of Islam, dreams are 425 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: even more important given the emphasis on quote direct experience 426 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: of the divine and on achieving is static union with 427 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: God through dreams, visions, and trance unquote. The interest in 428 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: dreams was, according to Struve, generally prognostic, and there were 429 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: various manuals for dream interpretation, but they also probed their 430 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: dreams and journaled the contents of their dreams as a 431 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 1: way of seeking quote indications of their current spiritual state unquote, 432 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: which you know, to a certain extent, Like that kind 433 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 1: of jives with the way we see dreams today, right 434 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 1: though often I guess in a non spiritual sense, like 435 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 1: you could look at your dreams and you could learn 436 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: something perhaps about the state of your own mind if 437 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: you had you know, the ability or the tools to 438 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 1: sort of dig through like the nonsense that is inherent 439 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 1: in our dreams. But again in Sufhism, particularly Ottoman Sufism, here, 440 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: according to stry Of, dreams were seen as sacred bestows 441 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,400 Speaker 1: rather than subjective, and it all contributed to an intense 442 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: intellectual focus on the contents of dreams. Under the Ottoman Empire, 443 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: intellectuals of the day look to dreams for solutions, for inspiration, 444 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: and also for introspection. Quote. Every change in daily life 445 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: was believed to have a counterpart in dreams or to 446 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: possess an otherworldly dimension. So I did a bit more 447 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: reading on the subject of Sufi Ottoman dreaming, and according 448 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: to scholar Osgen Phelik in twenty twenty three, quote, the 449 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: study of dreams in the Ottoman and greater Islamic worlds 450 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: is still in its early emergent stages unquote, So it 451 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: seems like that's an important caveat to make here that 452 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: there is. It seems to be quite a bit more 453 00:27:54,119 --> 00:28:00,119 Speaker 1: on all of this for academics to consider and to analyze. Now. 454 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: Felick had previously edited a volume titled Dreams and Visions 455 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: in Islamic Society, in which Alexander D. Denesh shares that 456 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: the Arab mystic Ibn al Arabi, who lived eleven sixty 457 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: five through twelve forty, suggested that quote the only reason 458 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: God plays sleep in the animate world was so that 459 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: everyone might know that there is another world similar to 460 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: the sensory world. 461 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting, though, I wonder if I'm interpreting this right. 462 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 2: So it would mean that under Ibn al Arabi's view, 463 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 2: that God gave us dreams, so we would know that 464 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 2: the material world is not all there is, that there 465 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 2: is another world, and dreams are like one demonstration of that. 466 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which is which is quite quite fascinating to 467 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: see this stress especially. I mean, I can't help but 468 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: think about things that I've read in the past concerning say, 469 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: witchcraft persecution in Europe, and the idea that like that, this, 470 00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: this world of the alleged occult was perhaps a focus 471 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: for witchcraft persecutors because it gave them some idea of 472 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: like here is the supernatural world, and if the infernal 473 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: version of that is real, then so is the divine. 474 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: But here this stress seems to be like look no 475 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: further than the world of dreams, Like that is kind 476 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 1: of the proof right there again, if I'm understanding this correctly. 477 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: But according to even Lrab, here the dream state allows 478 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: one to probe mysteries of God and creation that are 479 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: normally quite invisible to us. Densh describes this view as 480 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: one detailing dreams as an instrument of cognition that enable 481 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: people to better understand not only the inner workings of 482 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: the waking world, but to better understand the next world 483 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: as well. For as even Lrab would frequently quote, the 484 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: Prophet said that people are asleep and when they die, 485 00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: they awake. So dreams are like this hidden window. Now, 486 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: the author stresses that while not all Muslims of the 487 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: time would have agreed with even l R. Beyond this, 488 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: they would at least still value the importance of dreaming 489 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: and of waking visions in the Muslim life. Pre modern Muslims, 490 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: Dannish Rights saw dreams as things that revealed not only 491 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: hidden personal insights, but hidden aspects of the wider universe, 492 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: things otherwise hidden, citing the words of the prophet that 493 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: with his death, tidings of prophecy would end, but quote 494 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: true dreams would endure. And with this in mind, believers 495 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: in the Sufi school of Islam saw dreams as a 496 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: kind of a font of continued revelations. It's kind of 497 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 1: like the main font of revelation is now closed. It's 498 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 1: the message is complete, but there's kind of this continued 499 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: signal that will be open to those you know who 500 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: will listen to it. Who can you receive these true dreams? 501 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: So the strits that the result is kind of twofold 502 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: here for this particular example. First of all, a devout 503 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: Muslim could expect the guidance of God in dreams, and 504 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: two Sufi's in particular made broad use of dreams and 505 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: dream lore quote from training Sufi disciples and prognostication to 506 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: confirming the special status and authority of individual Sufi masters, 507 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: as well as authenticating spiritual genealogies and mystical orders. At 508 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: the same time, Dnes points out that dreams and visions 509 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: were and still are seen by Muslims as not only 510 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: cosmological and social, but also reflections of the dreamers inner 511 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: world quote expressions of both inner and outer voices. So 512 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 1: again coming back to this idea that yeat dreams may 513 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: reveal things about the world unseen, they may reveal things 514 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: about the future, but also they may reveal things about yourself, 515 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: which again that kind of compares rather favorably with sort 516 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: of the secular way that many people, certainly in the West, 517 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: few dreams today. 518 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 2: So I'm understanding this as the difference being that many 519 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 2: Muslims would view dreams not as a source of sort 520 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 2: of new theology that would change anything revealed in the 521 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 2: Qur'an or anything like that, but that it would offer 522 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 2: sort of specific guidance that is more particular to your 523 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 2: time and place in history. 524 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, that's that's my understanding. And now, as with 525 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: our example with the Quakers, you know the same here. 526 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: If you have have a particular expertise and background and 527 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: Islam or in Sufism, you know, we would love to 528 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: hear from you and get your individual take on all 529 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: of this. But based on what we've been reading in 530 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: researching herea, it does seem like dreams important in Islam broadly, 531 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: with a heightened importance in Sufism, and then during the 532 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: Ottoman Empire particularly so particular focus of time and place, 533 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: though it is kind of a broader period of time. 534 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: We'll get into details on that in just a second. 535 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: Even more focus on the power of dreams now Danish 536 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: also drives home though that Yeah, it is important to 537 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: note that dream cultures will vary from one Muslim society 538 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: and one time to another. So yeah, don't again, don't 539 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: take any of this as meaning like all Muslims, all Sufis, etc. 540 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: Believe this about any given dreams. Now, the book I 541 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: reference covers different topics under this umbrella of dreaming, but 542 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: there's another author in it, Gottfried Hagen, who singles out 543 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: Ottoman dream culture as well. I just wanted to share 544 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: a quick quote from Hagen on this quote. Throughout the 545 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: pre modern era and probably much longer, people in the 546 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: Ottoman Empire were firmly convinced of the reality of dreams. Now, 547 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: another interesting thing to think about, especially with this particular case, 548 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: is that, you know, naturally one sees the importance of 549 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: dream culture reflected in folklore as well, you know, because 550 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,800 Speaker 1: a lot of this is concerning I guess my understanding anyway, 551 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: like the upper parts of like the Sufi system at 552 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: the time, But beneath all that you're also going to 553 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:26,760 Speaker 1: have sort of underlying folklore, right, that is, I'm assuming 554 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,719 Speaker 1: working both ways, like folklore influenced by the prominent dream 555 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: culture of the day, but also perhaps contributing to the 556 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: general energy of it as well. I looked at a 557 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: paper titled dream Motif in Turkish folk Stories and Shamanistic Initiation, 558 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: and it discusses some examples of this, such as a 559 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 1: motif of a young man or woman having an important dream, 560 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 1: either after a traumatic event or after they pray to 561 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 1: God for help following such an event. And then in 562 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: the dream that follows, a holy man or holy men, 563 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 1: and then sometimes it's a maiden offers the youth a 564 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,800 Speaker 1: cup of wine to drink, and this is sometimes described 565 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: as like a love potion. They predict his future love 566 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 1: or her future love. They give them a pseudonym under 567 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: which to write poetry, and they offer guidance in the future. 568 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,280 Speaker 1: And then there's additional dream imagery that occurs in this motif, 569 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: including the like the burning of the body, like the 570 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: mortal body, and the dream burns away and they awake 571 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 1: with all this inspiration brought on by the dream. Now 572 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: they're inspired to write poetry inspired by both this dream 573 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: cup of wine and also inspired by God. The author 574 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: writes quote the dream motif complex and Turkish folk stories 575 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 1: provides a valuable case to illustrate how a ceremonial right, 576 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: a shamanistic initiation right, turns into a fiction motif through 577 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,400 Speaker 1: long social and historical development. There is a striking resemblance 578 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: between the initiation of a candidate into a shamanistic profession 579 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: and the dream motif complex which initiates the candidate into 580 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: the new life of an artist and lover. And the 581 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: author here links these folkloric stories, including the one that 582 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: I just shared, and also some that are discussed elsewhere 583 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: in this particular ride up to magico religious life of 584 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 1: the Turko Mongol Shamans. 585 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 2: But this is not particular to the Ottoman Muslim period 586 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 2: in Turkey. 587 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: No no. But though the particular dream motif that is 588 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: shared here I believe has some like clear Islamic cultural 589 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: cultural labeling, like the way that the that the holy 590 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: Men are presented, they're presented at least in this version 591 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: of it, as Islamic holy Men. Yeah. But I bring 592 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: it up though, just to sort of try to dig 593 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: at and explore the idea that, yeah, that any given 594 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: culture you're going to still have like these other folkloric 595 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: energy is going on as well, that are going to 596 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:03,320 Speaker 1: have certain stresses regarding let's say, the reality of dreams, 597 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: the cause of dreams, and the prophetic nature of dreams 598 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: as well. But to come back to the Ottoman dynasty specifically, 599 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: which ultimately runs twelve ninety nine through nineteen twelve. According 600 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: to Struve, one has a strong dream tradition of Sufi Islam, 601 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: the influence of Turkish Shamanism, and by the sixteenth century 602 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: one sees a particularly strong Ottoman empire quote, as the 603 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 1: empire was brought by successive conquests to nearly ring the 604 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,760 Speaker 1: Mediterranean Sea, and also on top of that the prominence 605 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,719 Speaker 1: of the Sufi Halvetti order, and also growing excitement in 606 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: the Muslim world over quote anticipation of the appearance of 607 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 1: a messiah, the Mahdi, who would prepare the world for 608 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:51,319 Speaker 1: judgment day, a millennial belief affirmed in Sufism. So if 609 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: I'm understanding everything correctly here, Struve seems to outline less 610 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,279 Speaker 1: of an external stress based inward gaze and one more 611 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: like Dee, deeply rooted in religion and culture, sure, and 612 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: then heightened by theological prominence and millennial excitement. So it 613 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 1: was like a high time of dream reports, dream journaling, mythologizing, 614 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 1: dream law, and consultation of one's own dreams for daily guidance. 615 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 1: Struve quotes the modern historian drawerza Hevy on all of this, 616 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 1: who is a historian with a particular expertise in Ottoman culture. Quote. 617 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,360 Speaker 1: Ottoman culture may be described as a dream culture in 618 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,720 Speaker 1: the sense that true or imaginary every change in daily 619 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,240 Speaker 1: life was believed to have had a counterpart in dreams, 620 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 1: or to possess an otherworldly dimension. People seem to have 621 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: used dreams for introspection, to interpret the past, to anticipate 622 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 1: the future, and to calculate their moves. Dream Lore was 623 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 1: a unifying discourse, uniting people in a bond of shared experience, 624 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: knitting together insights from politics, medicine, and religion. 625 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 2: Oh well, there is a kind of similarity with the 626 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 2: Quaker example of the emergent gents of a sort of 627 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,800 Speaker 2: collective dream culture in a way where people would share 628 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 2: and discuss their dreams and the meaning of dreams. And 629 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 2: there was it was more than just like an individual 630 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 2: private experience that you have, believing that it reflects the 631 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 2: you know, the contents of your own mind. That there 632 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,839 Speaker 2: was something bigger and more collective to it. 633 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. This, Yeah, I was really taken by that as well. 634 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,880 Speaker 1: A unifying discourse. Which there's so many things that are 635 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: different about the Ottoman example in the Quaker example, but 636 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,319 Speaker 1: this does seem to be the thing that they both 637 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: have in common in their own ways. And again, both. 638 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:38,359 Speaker 1: In both cases, it's so different from the way we 639 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: think about our dreams today, Like since we often have 640 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: this idea that it is at best this kind of 641 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 1: thing we extrude that has if you tease it apart 642 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: enough and to have some sort of insight or about 643 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 1: our own inner world. It's the kind of thing where 644 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: if you imagine yourself going to work, if you're you know, 645 00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 1: among your coworkers and go like, hey, everybody, you want 646 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,399 Speaker 1: to hear about my dream last night, like that would 647 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: feel more like a social faux pas, right, that would 648 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,839 Speaker 1: seem like something you should not do, like nobody wants 649 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 1: to hear that, or perhaps you're oversharing by mentioning it, 650 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: you know, unless you have something I guess just the 651 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 1: right calibration to share. Whereas in these accounts like the drink, 652 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: sharing your dreams was just was part of the culture, 653 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: and it brought people together rather than making them seem like, 654 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 1: you know, the office weirdos, as it might be in 655 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: today's world in the West. All right, on that note, 656 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: we're going to go ahead and close this episode out, 657 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:34,719 Speaker 1: but we'll be We'll be back for at least one 658 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 1: more episode dealing with this whole topic of dream mystique 659 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: and dream fascination and dream culture, so be sure to 660 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: tune in on Thursday for that. In the meantime, you 661 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 1: can check out other core episodes of Stuff to Blow 662 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,240 Speaker 1: Your Mind and the Stuff to Blow Your Mind podcast 663 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: feed on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Mondays we do a 664 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 1: listener mail, on Wednesdays we do a short form artifact 665 00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,920 Speaker 1: or monster effect, and on Fridays we set aside most 666 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,400 Speaker 1: serious concerns to just talk about a weird film on 667 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: Weird House Cinema. 668 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,239 Speaker 2: Huge thanks to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. If 669 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:08,719 Speaker 2: you would like to get in touch with us with 670 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,239 Speaker 2: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a 671 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,759 Speaker 2: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you 672 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 2: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your 673 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 2: Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production 674 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. 675 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,279 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit 676 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 2: The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 677 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 2: your favorite shows.