1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories with 2 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. I'm Jackie Howard. After a seven day twil 3 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: a jury deliberated for less than two hours before returning 4 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 1: a guilty verdict for Nathaniel Rowland in the kidnapping and 5 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 1: murder of University of South Carolina student Samantha Josephson. Police 6 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: and prosecutors say twenty one year old Josephson had been 7 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: out with friends in Columbia's Five Points district. She called 8 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: an uber to get home and then mistakenly got into 9 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: the wrong car and impalla owned by Nathaniel Rowland. Samantha 10 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: Josephson's body was found by hunters hours later amid the 11 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: brush in a field seventy miles or so from Columbia. 12 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: Joining me now is Joscod Morgan, professor of forensics Jacksonville 13 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: State University and author of Blood Beneath My Joe. Before 14 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: we dive into the forensics and the details of this case, 15 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: let's take a listen to some of Mom Marcy Josephson's 16 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: victim impact statement. I closed my eyes and let go 17 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: when she endured in his hands one hundred and twenty times, 18 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 1: over and over and over fighting for her life locked 19 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: in his car. I used to have dreams for her. 20 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: Now will I have a nightmares? A hundred twenty times 21 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 1: the final moments for very faking and fighting for her. 22 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: I visualized blood flowing from her body, her beautiful body, 23 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,199 Speaker 1: A hundred and twenty times. For what That's where we start, Joe. 24 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: Forensic pathologist doctor Thomas Beaver with Medical University of South 25 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: Carolina told the jury that Jessison was stabbed over one 26 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: hundred and twenty times. Yeah, doctor, doctor Beavers, you know 27 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: you have those uh moment months many times in court 28 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: and whenever you get a pro like this forensic pathologist 29 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: that sits on the stand and he says, I stopped 30 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: counting at one hundred and twenty nine times, and that 31 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: that's that's verbatim, one hundred and twenty I stopped counting there. 32 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: That gives you the gravity of what we're talking about here. 33 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: This this trauma that was inflicted on on Samantha, or 34 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: as her family called her family called her Sammy. Uh, 35 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: this this trauma that she endured. And trust me, it 36 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: was beyond anything that that I even have the words 37 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: to describe, because it was so so very violent, and 38 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 1: you know when he goes into this, he's he's not 39 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: just describing stab wounds, which in forensic pathologists, in forensic pathology, 40 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: what we refer to as sharp force injuries, we can 41 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: either have slices or stabs. These are stab wounds. But 42 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: also she had these unique injuries that were abrasions, which 43 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: all of us can identify with scrapes, that sort of thing. 44 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: And then she had contusions, these bruises, and they all 45 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 1: kind of centered around the stab wounds. And the reason 46 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: behind this is very unique, and that's because he this 47 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: this perpetrator used a weapon that many of us have seen, 48 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: some of us have them, and it's a it's a 49 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: called a multitool. And you see, you know electricians and 50 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: you know hunters and all kinds of people that wear 51 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: them in a little pouch on their belt and it 52 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: has pliers in it. You know, it's got a file. 53 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: It's even got a little saw blade on some of them. 54 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: It's got a court screw. I've even used the courtscrew. 55 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: I've got one. I've used courtscrew is when I've been 56 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: out camping my wife and I side. I've had a 57 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: class one. But Jackie, I gotta tell you. In this 58 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: particular case, it is actually postulated that he used both blades, 59 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: that there were blades on both ends of this thing, 60 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: and he deployed these blades so that it's almost like 61 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: a reverse scissor where you have, you know, the scissors 62 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: are kind of outward or a kind of linear straight. 63 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: These are kind of peeked in to form like a 64 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: V and he begins stabbing her. So every time he 65 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: buries these blades into her flesh, it's leaving behind these 66 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: little abrasions, these little contusions that actually match up with 67 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: the underside of this multi tool, and so it made 68 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 1: it kind of difficult to interpret. But what we can 69 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: sumize at the end of the day is that there 70 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: were too many to count, and I don't know that 71 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: we can act ever begin to measure the horror that 72 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: Sammy endured. I'm having a real difficult time wrapping my 73 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: head around what has happened here, Joe, because number one, 74 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: how long does it actually take, even in a frenzy 75 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: to stab someone over one hundred and twenty times? And 76 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: what does that do to a body? The fact that 77 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: there were so many injuries gives us an indication that 78 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: this perpetrator would have had to expend and excruciating long 79 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 1: time with her because this is no small act. First off, 80 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: there's evidence in the back of the car where she 81 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 1: would have been transported that she may have fought back. 82 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: In one kind of really telling moment here the sled 83 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: personnel that's the State of South Carolina's law enforcement agency, 84 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: kind of state police, they detail a footprint on the 85 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: inside of the rear window, like you know, she's flailing 86 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: for her life and she actually puts her foot on 87 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: the window, leaving an impression up there in this very 88 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 1: confined space. He would have had to have taken a 89 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: protracted period of time because just to imagine this repetitive 90 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: event over and over, and this is no small task. 91 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: It takes a tremendous amount of energy to drive this instrument. 92 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: And it's not like a regular knife that I can't 93 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: emphasize that enough. It's not like a single bladed butcher knife. 94 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: This is something that's kind of blunted. It has a 95 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: sharp end on it, but there's also other elements of 96 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: it that are blunted. So it would have taken a 97 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of force to go through not just skin 98 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: but muscle. Send you bone and then down into her 99 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: internal viscera, into her organs, and so this is done 100 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: over her and over and over again. It is not 101 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: it is not beyond reasonable to think that he would 102 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: have literally exerted himself to the point where he is 103 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: sweating during this period of time. He is just driving 104 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: this weapon into her over and over again, and it 105 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: would have I don't know that there's necessarily a measure, 106 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: but I do know this. What was fascinating about this 107 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: case is that someone had locked used the child locks 108 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: for the rear doors on this vehicle. So when she 109 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: would have gotten into the vehicle, guess what, she couldn't 110 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,679 Speaker 1: have escaped. And by the time she realized this wasn't 111 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: her uber driver, you can imagine panic had begun to 112 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: set in. And you know, like has been said, she 113 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: was found well in excess of sixty miles away from 114 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: downtown Columbia, South Carolina. She was found along always away 115 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: and what we would referred to as the sticks her 116 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: body wasn't wasn't found until some hunters came along and 117 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: found her. Some turkey hunters. Actually Jill what was the 118 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: primary location of the stab wounds on her body where 119 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: they primarily in the torso. Yes, these injuries, the injuries 120 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: that she sustained, were concentrated in the torso. And I 121 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: think that our listeners, our listeners are so bright that 122 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: Nancy has and I know that I know they'll understand 123 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: this when you're in a confined space and everybody can 124 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 1: identify with being in the back of a four door sedan. Okay, 125 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: it's a tiny area. It's not like you're in your bedroom. Okay, 126 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: there's very little room to move around. It's not like 127 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 1: you can extend yourself across the room away from an individual. 128 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: At most you might have a foot to two feet 129 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: of clearance if you really press it out. So her, 130 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: these injuries she sustained were concentrated, you know, from the 131 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 1: neck region all the way down to the torso. And 132 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: there's evidence that she had thrown up her arm as well, 133 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: where she's got these contusions that are covering her hands 134 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: in her arms, and of course we all know what 135 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: that means. That's an indication of what we referred to 136 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: as defensive injuries. That she had an awareness, she had 137 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: an awareness that she was being attacked. This is not like, 138 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: this is not like you see in some kind of 139 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: movie where someone took a knife and essentially, you know, 140 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: drove it into the base of her brain or cut 141 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: her throat, where you know, life just suddenly left her body. 142 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: This is something that she was very, very painfully and 143 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: acutely aware of that was hattening to her. And you 144 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: couple that with the panic of not being able to 145 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: escape from this confined space to the fact that she 146 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: suddenly came face to face with this monster, and she 147 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: probably had an awareness that her life was about to 148 00:09:52,280 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: end out there in this desolate, abandoned area. Crime stories 149 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, this crime scene the impelled a crime 150 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: scene on wheels. Josephson's blood was sound everywhere inside this car, 151 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: a large amount of blood. In fact, the pathologist said 152 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: that almost every drop of blood was gone from her body. Yeah, 153 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: just let that sink in just for a moment when 154 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: you began to think that the pathologist said that every drop. 155 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 1: I think, with the exception of possibly, I think the 156 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: pathologists framed it as maybe a couple of tablespoons. Everybody 157 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 1: knows what a tablespoon is. It's gone. And this in 158 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,840 Speaker 1: forensic terms, this is what we referred to as exanguination. 159 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: It's kind of a fancy word for saying she bled 160 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: to death, and that means that he insulted her body enough. 161 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: He insulted her body enough with this weapon that there 162 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: were so many defects in her body, so many stab wounds, 163 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: that all of the blood, all of the blood literally 164 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: came out. And let me tell you another chilling part 165 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 1: to this. The fact that the blood came out of 166 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: her body gives us an indication that her heart was beating. 167 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: That means that she was a live while this was 168 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: going on. Because you know, look, I've worked a lot 169 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: of cases over my career where people sustained stab wounds 170 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: for the chest, okay, and they'll have blood contained within 171 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: the chest walls, all right. That means they bled out 172 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: for a little bit and then they died. Just an 173 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: organ failure. No, no, no no, that's not what happened. She 174 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: was stabbed so many times and in all of these 175 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: variety of locations over her torso that there was blood 176 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: coming out multiple holes in her body till everything was 177 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: left around her, you know, the seats, the clothing, even 178 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: the backs of the seats, the door jam and I suspect, 179 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: and I suspect all over the perpetrator as well. He 180 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: would have been bathed in her blood, up and down 181 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,079 Speaker 1: his arms. Certainly the weapon you remember he was found. 182 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: He was witnessed later attempting to i think by a 183 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: lady friend of his, trying to clean trying to clean 184 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 1: this instrument. He had it on his arms, He probably 185 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: had it on his neck. He had blood everywhere, her blood, 186 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: Sammy's blood, he had all over him. So that gives 187 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 1: you an idea. Again, it goes to the horror of 188 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: this that it's a hopeless situation at this point in 189 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: time where life is slowly draining out of her body 190 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: and finally, you know she because of lack of strength, 191 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: she just would not have had the ability to fight 192 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: back any longer. One of other things that came out 193 00:12:56,360 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 1: in the trial is that Josephson had facial injuries that 194 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: looked as if she was dragged. Yeah, and that gives 195 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: you an indication that perhaps in that he didn't even 196 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: take the time to essentially cradle her and carry her away, 197 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: that just like some dead animal he perpetrated this horrific 198 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: crime on He just kind of drug her along the 199 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: ground and deposited her out there in the stick. Let's 200 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: backtracked us a little bit Joe Josephson is driven out 201 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: to this remote area nearly sixty seventy miles from Columbia 202 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: to a remote area nearby to where Roland's parents lived. 203 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,479 Speaker 1: But the defense pointed out that nothing from the woods, 204 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: either dirt or debris, is on Roland's clothing or shoes. 205 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: How's that possible? How's it possible that he didn't actually 206 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: leave the scene with nothing on his person that would 207 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: tie him back. You know, in forensic suite, we actually 208 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: have a practice of you know, say, for instance, soil science, 209 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: all right, that goes back to trace evidence, where we 210 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: can identify a certain you know, that depend upon a 211 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: region that you're in in the country. And this part 212 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: of South Carolina has actually referred to as the Piedmont region. 213 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: There's specific soil that you find in these locations. It's 214 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 1: kind of a sandy loamy kind of kind of a 215 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: composition mixed with a little clay, and it's very distinctive, 216 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: particularly when you look at it under a microscope. But 217 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: you know, people will say, well, how how did he 218 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: not have this dirt on him, or how did he 219 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: not have vegetation or anything. I'll tell you why, because 220 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: he cleaned himself up. He cleaned himself up to the 221 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: point where there was nothing left behind that they could find. 222 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: And also I would I would offer up that because 223 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: he had so much of her blood on him, I 224 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: think he was probably and this is a horrible turn 225 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: of events, probably partially shielded by Sammy's blood on his 226 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: person from taking on anything else, any of the debris 227 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: that might be associated with a specific identifier back to 228 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: that area. We're going to talk about the DNA evidence 229 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: here in just a second, Joe, but I want to 230 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: talk about the video and the digital evidence that came 231 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: out in this trial. There was video of the car 232 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: in the area where Jesus and went missing. There were 233 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: phone pings to the area, camera footage of them seen 234 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: driving throughout the town. Then you have the dash cam 235 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: video when Roland was actually pulled over. It was almost 236 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: too much to try to get away with this. There 237 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: was so much evidence there. What's amazing about the world 238 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: that we live in now, It's really difficult for anybody 239 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: that perpetrates a chrome to not leave behind some kind 240 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: of electronic signature. And even in this case, we're not 241 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: necessarily talking about things that are very electronic specific. You know, 242 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: where they're pinging phones and this sort of thing. Although 243 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: that is part of this, probably the most compelling thing, 244 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: the most visceral thing that you can see in this case, 245 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: and I'll kind of break this down for you, is 246 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: the CCTV footage. And the reason is is that you 247 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: can see Sammy in the video where she is out 248 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: on the street and and you can tell, like many 249 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: young people nowadays, and I'm guilty of it as well, 250 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: where she has her smartphone in her hand and she's 251 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: actually looking at the phone. You know that she's already 252 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: ordered a car up. She's waiting for the car to 253 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: come up. And there's even one instance in this view 254 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: of her, you're kind of looking at the right side 255 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: of her body, so you kind of see her in profile. 256 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: She actually steps off the curb into the street because 257 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: there's a car that comes by and she thinks that 258 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: it's her uber and it wasn't, and she doesn't about 259 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: face and goes back up to the curb. There's there's 260 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: like a diagonal part spot for a handicapped person the 261 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: vehicle there. She comes back to the curb, but guess what, 262 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: off in the distance almost out of sight at that 263 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: moment time there's the perpetrator's car. And guess what he's doing. 264 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 1: He's already passed down the street a couple of times. 265 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: He's looking. He's looking for a victim. And the first 266 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: thing I thought of when I saw this, you know, 267 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: was a person in the water and a shark is circling. 268 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: You don't necessarily know where they are, and you might 269 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: not even have an indwelling fear that there's a shark there. 270 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 1: But suddenly, at this moment he appears. He actually pulls 271 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: up to the light which would have been to Sammy's 272 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 1: left at this point, and makes a turn toward her. 273 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 1: And a matter of fact, it's almost like he's so 274 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: excited when he sees this potential victim that when he turns, 275 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 1: he turns this car is will to the right. The 276 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: right rear tire of this vehicle that Sammy was murdered 277 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: in actually goes up on the curve. He cut the 278 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 1: corner too quickly and then swung right into right into 279 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: the handicap spot. And without thinking about it, she opens 280 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: the door and she gets in the back of the car. 281 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: And the reason this is so chillingness that is the 282 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: last time, that's the last time that we see Sammy alive. 283 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,360 Speaker 1: He backs out, waits for traffic to pass, and then 284 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: pulls on out. And you know, you're thinking all along, 285 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: you know, you're watching this CCTV play out before you, 286 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: and you're actually thinking, you know, my god, I wish 287 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: I could freeze time. I wish that somebody would step 288 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: up and grab her. But who has any aware of 289 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: awareness of this. We live in a world of rideshare now, 290 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: and because that happened, it leaves us with the sense 291 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: that she's gone forever and she, as it turns out, 292 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: she is. He drove off with her, and he had 293 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: been looking for someone. He had been trolling this area 294 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: looking for a potential robbery victim. And what's really also 295 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: another part to this that's so very startling about this 296 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: particular case is that all of us that have children, 297 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: when our kids were little and they've kind of gotten 298 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,920 Speaker 1: out of car seats, we used to put in booster 299 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: seats in the back of the car. Well, in the 300 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: back of this car was a little booster seat. It 301 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: was a little booster seat that was used to transport 302 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: children with it. And this was actually in the back 303 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: of the car. So here Sammy is she seated in 304 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: the back seat and on the other side of the 305 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: car from her is a child's booster seat. Now, what 306 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: could have been going through her mind at that point 307 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: in time. Well, maybe this is a dad that's just 308 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: working extra to make a living for his family. Now 309 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: what it was was a monster that was using this vehicle, 310 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: the same vehicle as used as transport small children, actually 311 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: used it to take Sammy to her death. It's very chilling. Joe. 312 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: Let's move on and talk a little bit about the DNA. 313 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: As we've mentioned, there was blood everywhere, and as you said, 314 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: you've theorized that the perpetrator, Nathaniel Rowland, was covered in 315 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 1: Josephson's blood. So let's talk about the significance of the DNA, 316 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: what was found and what wasn't found. The evidence that 317 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: we saw presented in the trial, the defense and the 318 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:32,719 Speaker 1: prosecutor really pushed some facts about the DNA, you know, 319 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: the DNA. I think that when the defense in this 320 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: case they come forward with a theory or supposition that 321 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: they put before the court, that it is a bona 322 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: fide fact in forensic science that an absence of DNA 323 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: from the perpetrator is an indication of innocence, and those 324 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 1: two things they don't necessarily exist in the same plane. 325 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:09,880 Speaker 1: Just because just because the perpetrators DNA was not found 326 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 1: on her, on sammy or underneath her nails, does not 327 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 1: mean that he that he's innocent. It just doesn't. Now. 328 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 1: Her DNA, however, was found everywhere because it was deposited 329 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 1: visa her blood, which you know we've already talked about 330 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 1: that she had. It was a couple of tablespoons left 331 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: in her body, so this car him her the surfaces, 332 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: they're a wash in her blood and her DNA. So 333 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: there was a minuscule amount of DNA of his that 334 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: was found, but it was also commingled with other people. 335 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: I think that that even even on the multi tool 336 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: they had trouble finding DNA. But keep in mind when 337 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: it comes to the instrument itself, he was actually witnessed 338 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: who have been cleaning this thing, and they couldn't say 339 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: with a reasonable scientific certainty that his DNA was present. 340 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: They thought that they found some, but it wasn't within 341 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: the parameters. However, for her, the numbers were astronomical. I mean, 342 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: I think they were talking into the sextillions. If anybody 343 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: out there can kind of wrap their brain around that 344 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: how vast that number is. So you can't just simply 345 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: say that because she Sammy did not have his DNA 346 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: deposited on her, that you know, he wasn't the perpetrator. 347 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: And also one other thing that folks need to keep 348 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 1: in mind, there's no indication in this case that this 349 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: was a sexual assault. There's no indication that, you know, 350 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 1: this was a provocative event where her clothing was disordered 351 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: to in the sense that you would see, say, for instance, 352 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: a sexual attack victim. There's no indication of that. This 353 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: was at least prosecutors and the investigators believe this was 354 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: an actual property crime. It was actually a robbery that 355 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,520 Speaker 1: was taking place. To remember, he was actually found pawning. 356 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: Now I think that he had pawned some of her items. 357 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: So the intent here was that he was merely out 358 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: there to rob her, and at the end of the day, 359 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: he did robbery. Robbed her of her life, and he 360 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: robbed her family of her life and and any kind 361 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: of future she might have, all for you know, a 362 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: few bucks. And you know it's it's by no fault 363 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: of her own that his DNA was not there, but 364 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: there was enough of her DNA spread around that it 365 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: was very, very difficult for the defense to explain that away, 366 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:52,479 Speaker 1: and so much so that the defense didn't really offer 367 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: up anything to the contrary. As a matter of fact, 368 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 1: they didn't call any of any of their own experts. 369 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: They didn't even have any experts. Essentially, they relied upon 370 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: the prosecution to provide all of the experts and then 371 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 1: they just tried to undercut them, and they didn't really 372 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 1: present a defense in this particular case. And Roland did 373 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: not take the stand in his own defense either. But 374 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: we also know you were talking about the possibility of 375 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: items being pawned. We know that the perpetrator tried or 376 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: someone tried to use Josephson's debit card. I also want 377 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: to point out Nathaniel Roland did not have a mark 378 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: on him or cut, not a bruise. But we also 379 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 1: know he was wearing long sleeves and gloves, So this 380 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: pretty much means there was a lot less chance of 381 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: transfer of DNA. Yeah, when an individual is essentially cocooned 382 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: like this, you're not going to get a lot of 383 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: transference from the individual. Say, for instance, if you've got 384 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: if folks at home will just kind of think about 385 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: with your arms being exposed. Okay, one of the first 386 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 1: primal defense moves that we make as human beings as 387 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: to thrust our hands out to capture an attacker's hands 388 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: to try to prevent them essentially from attacking us. Well, 389 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,440 Speaker 1: if if you're if you're talking about like contact DNA 390 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: or trace DNA that's left behind a partial DNA, it's 391 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: not going to be on his skin. Also, she's not 392 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: going to have access to his arms in order to scrape. Now, 393 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: one of the hurdles that's that's hard to overcome here 394 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: is is obviously in an absence of say, scrapes down 395 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: his face and that sort of thing. But you know, look, 396 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: she just didn't react potentially in time. Maybe she was 397 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: so injured by the initial attack that she didn't have 398 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: the will to fight back at that point in time. 399 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 1: Can you imagine the terror that was overtaking her at 400 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: that point in time, and he just continued to stab 401 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: her over and over and over and over again. So again. 402 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: After a seven day trial, the jury deliberated for less 403 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 1: than two hours before returning to guilt di verdict for 404 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: Nathaniel Roland in the kidnapping and murder of Samantha Josephson. 405 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: The judge went straight into sentencing. Nathaniel Roland gets life 406 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: in prison. This is Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm 407 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: Jackie Howard.