Speaker 1: My name is Clay Nukeleman. This is a production of
Speaker 1: the bear Grease podcast called The bear Grease Render, where
Speaker 1: we render down, dive deeper, and looked behind the scenes
Speaker 1: of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by f HF Gear,
Speaker 1: American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed
Speaker 1: to be as rugged as the places. We explore. What's
Speaker 1: your phone with silent alban because you know we'll go
Speaker 1: off album. What kind of wood are we burning? There?
Speaker 1: That right there? I think that's some hackberry bigger stumps.
Speaker 1: We're sitting around a hackberry fire. It's November the third
Speaker 1: and we're in southeast so Lahoma. And you may have
Speaker 1: heard of one week in November which is meat Eaters,
Speaker 1: Meat Eaters Whitetail Show. We're down here whitetail hunt and uh,
Speaker 1: I've got a very eclectic group of guests, um that
Speaker 1: I'm going to introduce individually, Cherry. Do you know that
Speaker 1: typically the Beargrease Render, which that's what this is. This
Speaker 1: is the Render, So Beargrease podcast is where we where
Speaker 1: we have a documentary style, big, robust story. The render
Speaker 1: is where we just gather up a group of people
Speaker 1: that talk about it. Typically there's there's one group of people,
Speaker 1: which is my wife Brent Reeves, who now we all
Speaker 1: suspect we're we're we're we're curious of his reasons for
Speaker 1: being my friend, uh, my dad, um Josh Spellmaker, Misty Nukam,
Speaker 1: my lovely wife. And then a sixth person that bounces
Speaker 1: around from a lot of different people. For the last
Speaker 1: several weeks, I've been on the road and so I've
Speaker 1: been having renders with all kinds of different people, and
Speaker 1: you get really people like that, but they're but there.
Speaker 1: They also like the regular crew. So anyway, it's it's
Speaker 1: good to be in southeast Oklahoma. I'm I'm being really
Speaker 1: hosted here by Alvin and Sherry grigg Man. Alvin, I
Speaker 1: was trying to think we met. I actually I almost
Speaker 1: know exactly how long ago. It was seven years ago
Speaker 1: because Fern, my plot coon hound, is eight years she'll
Speaker 1: be eight on November eleven. And she was about a
Speaker 1: year old, and she was a year and a half old. No,
Speaker 1: she was younger than that she was. She was he
Speaker 1: hadn't really even started in the woods yet. Really, you
Speaker 1: called me because I had some uh Steve Hurdge bloodline
Speaker 1: and bluff Creek and and actually actually the one we
Speaker 1: had with Sherry's dog. But anyways, and Steve would give
Speaker 1: you my number, and I remember she was she hadn't
Speaker 1: really I mean, I just say she was x raight
Speaker 1: months old. You know you started fooling with her, but
Speaker 1: I don't think you'd actually been. I remember her first
Speaker 1: cone she had treated Remember tell me remember telling well,
Speaker 1: I want to come back to that. I'm gonna introduce everybody,
Speaker 1: but that's a big story and I want to tell it.
Speaker 1: Alvin and Sherry, Grig Cherry say hi to everybody. Great Cherry,
Speaker 1: it's this is gonna be fun having you on here.
Speaker 1: So there to my right, directly to their left is
Speaker 1: big dirty Dave Gardner. Dave, good to see man, good
Speaker 1: to be here. This is your first time on the render, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: first time caller, a longtime listener. Everybody here thinks Dave
Speaker 1: looks like Dale Brisbee, so got the big stash and
Speaker 1: pretty much. Yeah, so Dave, tell us what you do.
Speaker 1: I'm a photographer and camera guy. Yeah, me and Dave
Speaker 1: have been we were counting today. We've been on five
Speaker 1: shoots together. So you know, shoots that like last over
Speaker 1: a week usually, so We've spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: like standing like uncomfortably those together in a tree, a
Speaker 1: tree together. Right. Uh, well, we're gonna get back to you.
Speaker 1: Dave to my left, Brian Ringles, also known as Rhino Man,
Speaker 1: you're the first official ferrier, real live fairier that we've
Speaker 1: had on the podcast, and I got some questions for you,
Speaker 1: all right, I guess some answers. Good fairiers have a
Speaker 1: lot of answers. I found that it may not be
Speaker 1: fairiers that are passionate people, but the people that are
Speaker 1: around farriers and equine people. Man, they see you doing
Speaker 1: anything on a horse or mule hoof, you get a
Speaker 1: lot of opinions, don't you. Yes, sir, very money? So
Speaker 1: how long you've been chewing horses? I've been full time
Speaker 1: eight years in this coming February eight years? Is that
Speaker 1: a good profession? Being? It's been good to me. I
Speaker 1: wish I would have started it when I was twenty
Speaker 1: and stead thirty or forty, but but yes, it's been
Speaker 1: real good to me. Yeah. Do you shoot Alvin's horses
Speaker 1: I have in the pass? Yes? Do you shoot your
Speaker 1: own horses? Alvin? No? I tried one time. I was
Speaker 1: gonna shoot my own and all I got was fronts.
Speaker 1: All I got was fronts. Yeah, as far as I
Speaker 1: made it. Well, we're gonna have to come back to
Speaker 1: the to the horse shoeing thing, all right, because I
Speaker 1: got I got some questions, but I gotta finish. My
Speaker 1: introduction to your left is Brian Jumpy. Yep, Brian, tell
Speaker 1: us what you do. I'm the Coke County Sheriff, Cold County, Oklahoma. Yes, sir,
Speaker 1: you're the sheriff. Yes, we called in the law for
Speaker 1: this man called outlaw. Well we had to. We had
Speaker 1: to call him the law to talk about the outlaws.
Speaker 1: How long you've been sheriff over here? Uh? Ten years?
Speaker 1: I've been sheriff for ten years and uh been a
Speaker 1: law enforcement seventeen Okay, And so being a sheriff is
Speaker 1: an elected position. Yes, so you gotta be a politician.
Speaker 1: I'm not too good of a politician, but good enough
Speaker 1: to win an election. You know this is like I'm
Speaker 1: a grown man and know this, but I've never really
Speaker 1: heard anybody explain it. You have city police departments that
Speaker 1: govern have jurisdiction inside of cities, and then sheriff departments
Speaker 1: have jurisdictions inside of counties, and so they're taking care
Speaker 1: of rural issues and rural people that aren't don't have
Speaker 1: a specific assignment to a to a to a city.
Speaker 1: Is that right? Right? We also work the city too.
Speaker 1: We have jurisdiction in the whole county. Okay. Is there
Speaker 1: anything that specific that a sheriff would do that just
Speaker 1: like a city police officer wouldn't do, like types of
Speaker 1: crimes or is it not? It's all but the same,
Speaker 1: just all about the same. What what would you say?
Speaker 1: You spend most of your time doing as sheriff, paperwork,
Speaker 1: office work, budget meetings. Really don't spend a lot of
Speaker 1: time on the street, no more so. You're managing people,
Speaker 1: managing the whole outfit. Is that? Is that good or bad?
Speaker 1: Just got us good days and bad days, a lot
Speaker 1: of bad days on it. But you're you're either on
Speaker 1: top of the world on or on bottom. Yeah, snow
Speaker 1: in between. Yeah, it's either going really good or really bad. Alvin,
Speaker 1: how long have you known Brian? They call him Jumpy.
Speaker 1: I hesitated known him my entire life, and we've been
Speaker 1: great friends for probably ninety five six about. We've been
Speaker 1: a really close friends since then. But I've known him
Speaker 1: when I was a little baby kid, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? Yeah, how you were gonna? You were? You
Speaker 1: told me you you had a interesting entry point into
Speaker 1: law enforcement. How how did you get into it? Ask
Speaker 1: him A long story. I don't know if you've got
Speaker 1: time to hear all of it. Yeah, we do. But
Speaker 1: I never got a long good with law enforcement of
Speaker 1: my whole life. And when I was about thirty four
Speaker 1: years old, I had a buddy that was in law
Speaker 1: enforcement and he come knocking on my door one day.
Speaker 1: No open a door, and seeing my buddy he's standing
Speaker 1: there in uniform, I thought, oh, that's this can't be good,
Speaker 1: you know, And I said, what are you doing here? Jerry?
Speaker 1: He tells me he said, well, we got a job
Speaker 1: opening down here and see police and thought you got
Speaker 1: the right temperament to make a good cop once you
Speaker 1: put your application in. So now, said Jerry, I don't
Speaker 1: even like cops. You said, I don't. I don't think
Speaker 1: I want to be one. He goes, well, just come
Speaker 1: out and ride with us a couple of weekends and
Speaker 1: see if you like it. I got to riding with
Speaker 1: him on the weekends. I got to lacking it. I
Speaker 1: thought back in was all hog hunting a lot, so
Speaker 1: this is a whole lot like hog hunting. You go
Speaker 1: catch a bad guy, tie him up and throw him
Speaker 1: in a pin like like we catch a hog, tie
Speaker 1: up and throw the hog in a pin, keep him
Speaker 1: and then uh, I eventually got hired on. It took
Speaker 1: a while I get hired on't when I got hired
Speaker 1: on about a year later. That's thirty five as well,
Speaker 1: like RT. Yeah, and uh, I thought, man, that's gonna
Speaker 1: be the best job ever. I'll be able to work
Speaker 1: evening shift in the after work on coon hunt all night. Hmm.
Speaker 1: Now coon hunt all night and I sleep biggest part
Speaker 1: a day and get up and go to work and
Speaker 1: catch bad guys and go coon hing again. It sounds
Speaker 1: like a good plan. It's a good plan. It didn't
Speaker 1: work out that good, though. If you had any guesses
Speaker 1: of why this sheriff is the first sheriff on the
Speaker 1: burgarys Render podcast, you've just heard why this man's a
Speaker 1: coon hunter hog hunter? It used to be a carry on. Well,
Speaker 1: that's really about it. I got I got started, and
Speaker 1: when I got started good, I thought, well, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be sheriff one day. Really, So that that was like
Speaker 1: a career ambition. You were like, I want to be
Speaker 1: the sheriff, and here I am. So what's it take
Speaker 1: to be a good chriff? Patience? You know, you gotta
Speaker 1: have good deputies, your deputies. This is what makes a
Speaker 1: good cheer. You ain't got good deputies, you don't have
Speaker 1: a good cheer, right, yeah, yeah, So you got to
Speaker 1: manage your team, right. How many deputies do you have
Speaker 1: here in this county? I usually have about nine. I'm
Speaker 1: sure handed right now because I've had to get rid
Speaker 1: of some of them. Yeah, big Dave, you got any
Speaker 1: questions for for Brian? Any law enforcement questions? Actually we
Speaker 1: were talking about this earlier, Clay. Uh. Now, why if
Speaker 1: you were pull somebody over and you're looking at their
Speaker 1: license and registration, would you ask them to come and
Speaker 1: sit in the front seat of a car with him?
Speaker 1: Depends on the person. If you look like a shady
Speaker 1: individual and I thought you or if I thought you
Speaker 1: was holding dope or been drinking and bat you back
Speaker 1: to the car. A lot of times to sit in
Speaker 1: the car with a sit in a car with me.
Speaker 1: They train you not to do that, but that's a
Speaker 1: good way to get him in a car. And go
Speaker 1: talking to him. You can smell alcohol on them where,
Speaker 1: you know, get talking to him and my hasn't open
Speaker 1: the pocket, can talk him how the dope probably get
Speaker 1: a little more nervous sitting back there with you, don't
Speaker 1: you know. So tell him your story. And I mean
Speaker 1: basically me and had had the same story. Just had
Speaker 1: random like a totally normal traffic stop. Go ahead. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I was just working a gig one night. I was
Speaker 1: filming filming a show and on the way out of there,
Speaker 1: I rolled through a stop sign and sure enough, there's
Speaker 1: a copyright there. And yeah, he asked me to come
Speaker 1: and sit in the front suite of his car while
Speaker 1: he was checking my license and registration insurance. And then
Speaker 1: he didn't even give you a ticket, didn't even give
Speaker 1: me a ticket, let me off with the warning. Yeah,
Speaker 1: nice guy. It was the Mullet bill. It was now
Speaker 1: I had the same thing happened, and uh, I think
Speaker 1: I was in South Dakota and had a state trooper
Speaker 1: pulled me over the middle of the day. I was
Speaker 1: going just a few miles over the speed limit and
Speaker 1: he he was he was real nice and we've been
Speaker 1: hunting in Canada and he was he was like, hey,
Speaker 1: you were going a few miles over, no big deal,
Speaker 1: but we like to keep it, you know, right there
Speaker 1: on the limit. And gave him everything and he was like, hey,
Speaker 1: come sitting in the car with me. And I was
Speaker 1: just like it kind of wigged me out. I was like,
Speaker 1: what are we doing here? Man? And anyway, he just
Speaker 1: and when I got the car, he just we talked
Speaker 1: about hunting for like twenty minutes in his car. Probably
Speaker 1: a fan. No, no, this was some years ago. This
Speaker 1: was years ago, years ago. But it's checking me out.
Speaker 1: He didn't just want to chat with me. He had suspicions.
Speaker 1: I'll be done. What's what's the main thing going on
Speaker 1: around here that you guys are enforcing in terms of
Speaker 1: the law, Uh, drugs and stealing, just theft and drugs
Speaker 1: they go hand in hand. Really yeah, yeah, that Germaine
Speaker 1: crimes tround here Staffton drugs, theft and drugs. Well, that's
Speaker 1: that's really interesting. I look forward to hearing your thoughts
Speaker 1: on r T. I gotta tell you guys the story.
Speaker 1: RT called me on the way here, like after dark,
Speaker 1: driving here and r T. You know, I mean, in
Speaker 1: our conversation, like we're it see we're just like buddies,
Speaker 1: you know, talking. But it surprised me to see his
Speaker 1: name come up on my on my on my phone
Speaker 1: and uh so I picked it up and he's he
Speaker 1: I should have known he was trying to get me.
Speaker 1: But he said, Clay, how you doing man? And he
Speaker 1: was real serious and I said, I'm doing good. He said,
Speaker 1: I got a problem. This is the first time he's
Speaker 1: called me since the podcast came out. He said, I
Speaker 1: got a problem. And I said, oh man, that's not good.
Speaker 1: What what's going on? And he said, man, ever since
Speaker 1: that podcast came out, I've been getting threats. I've uh,
Speaker 1: I've already got one, two, three, four, I mean, and
Speaker 1: I just was thinking, oh no, I've got this guy
Speaker 1: in trouble. And uh he let me thank it for
Speaker 1: a minute and then he was like, clut. You know,
Speaker 1: I made a living lying, right, And then he started
Speaker 1: laughing and he he had some guys in there that
Speaker 1: was he has a he has a he's an outfitter,
Speaker 1: and he had a bunch of guys hunting with him.
Speaker 1: But anyway, and outfit, now, yeah, he is, he sure is.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't trust him. He lies. Yep. Hey, y'all are
Speaker 1: all hog hunting buddies. And that's the reason I know
Speaker 1: Alvin is Uh is from hounds and Uh. I've said
Speaker 1: this to Alvin before, but I'll say it again. I Alvin,
Speaker 1: what little I know about hounds, A lot of it
Speaker 1: came from talking to album. Now, we've never hound hunted together.
Speaker 1: Y'all have come up and squirrel hunted with me. We
Speaker 1: we've never I've never heard hunted with you. But that
Speaker 1: going back to our original conversation of when we met.
Speaker 1: I had called you about trying to get a plot
Speaker 1: and UH and you we talked on the phone for
Speaker 1: basically the first two years of Ferns life. I was
Speaker 1: giving you the play by play what she was doing,
Speaker 1: and Uh, you were really good at articulating the hound world.
Speaker 1: The first first time we made you when you come
Speaker 1: to dog pain, well that's the first time I would
Speaker 1: have seen you get talking about these dogs. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna sit here and say, yeah, I told to
Speaker 1: you every thing. You know what, if you any questions
Speaker 1: you asked me, if I felt like I had to
Speaker 1: answer you know, I would try to do the best
Speaker 1: I could do to answer you know what. I mean
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff you were saying, you know, might
Speaker 1: have been some of the first experiences you had. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know you came hunt before, but some of the
Speaker 1: stuff you were explaining to me, you know, I had
Speaker 1: seen before, and I was like, well, I think this
Speaker 1: is actually what's going on. You know, don't be too
Speaker 1: concerned about it or whatever. You know, it's just kind
Speaker 1: of general conversation that I have with anybody, or you'd
Speaker 1: have with anybody if you knew. Yeah, and y'all do this.
Speaker 1: This is hog country, man. They're pretty much hogs all
Speaker 1: over this part of the world pretty much. Brian, tell
Speaker 1: me how Tell me about your schedule as a fairer,
Speaker 1: Like how many how many horses are you shooting every day? Oh?
Speaker 1: I try to keep it if I'm shooting something all
Speaker 1: the way around, you know, in the five or six
Speaker 1: a day range, and then if I'm trimming, I'll try
Speaker 1: to cut it off around twenty, you know, in the
Speaker 1: fifteen to twenty. I keep most of my clients on
Speaker 1: a six weeks rotating schedule. Six weeks rotating schedule. You
Speaker 1: gotta have a tight schedule. I mean you you you
Speaker 1: gotta manage it to get people in there, and and
Speaker 1: and that seems like a the ferriers I've worked with,
Speaker 1: that's been a challenge for me to be to fit
Speaker 1: their schedule. It can be tough. You know, you got
Speaker 1: a joke. Life happens to everybody, So you gotta juggle
Speaker 1: all of their schedules into yours, you know. I mean
Speaker 1: they have families, things come up, dr appointments, what have you.
Speaker 1: You know, so you're gonna gotta juggle all that. But
Speaker 1: it's it's doable. Yeah. Um so I trim just the
Speaker 1: front feet of my mule. Back feet typically stay pretty tight.
Speaker 1: Is that okay? That I don't ever trim our back feet? Yeah?
Speaker 1: You You normally won't have as much trouble with the
Speaker 1: back feet because the horse carries six sevent of their
Speaker 1: weight on the front end. Uh, the majority of your
Speaker 1: problems come in the front. You know. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: you never need to trim the back, but it's generally
Speaker 1: doesn't The problems won't show up there as quickly. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of like the front tires on your truck wearing
Speaker 1: out before the back tires. Yeah, you buy new tires.
Speaker 1: You put them on the front and put th old
Speaker 1: was on the back. That's just buy two at a time.
Speaker 1: That's right. That's the way y'all do it here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right, Alvin tell me and Sherry, Sherry, Never in
Speaker 1: my life have I heard Sherry grig not talk in
Speaker 1: like a span as long as we've heard that. So Sherry,
Speaker 1: I need to hear from you too. There's two things
Speaker 1: that you should never put on social media. Two things.
Speaker 1: One of them is anything that has to do with
Speaker 1: bee keeping. Okay, if you have a bee hive, keep
Speaker 1: it to yourself. No, no, I mean no, I don't
Speaker 1: know if they'll steal it. You will get more advice
Speaker 1: than you know what to do. With passionate advice. Beekeepers
Speaker 1: are the most passionate people. They'll they'll stalk you, they'll
Speaker 1: want to come to your house, they'll private message you
Speaker 1: from like every angle possible to try to get you
Speaker 1: to tell you, you know, like this thing you're doing.
Speaker 1: They're passionate people. And then the other group is horse people.
Speaker 1: So I had a couple of videos just I mean, man,
Speaker 1: I had a farrier that was coming to my house.
Speaker 1: He came probably four times and and just random times
Speaker 1: to put shoes on my mule when I was going
Speaker 1: out west. And he was a real nice guy, and
Speaker 1: he was just like Clay, you ought to be able
Speaker 1: to do this yourself, he said, I'll teach you how
Speaker 1: to do it. And so he just showed me how
Speaker 1: to trim her feet and how to put shoes on
Speaker 1: her a couple of times, and I just watched him
Speaker 1: and ask questions. So ever since then, I've done it
Speaker 1: myself and so I put randomly, we'll put a little
Speaker 1: video up of me trimming. Is these feet right? And
Speaker 1: it's it's like the sky fell people people going wild.
Speaker 1: I need to show you that video. Tell me if
Speaker 1: I'm making a train wreck. Well, she still, she's still sam,
Speaker 1: She's still going, and you're doing something right. A little
Speaker 1: bit on social media you can push block and you've
Speaker 1: listen to crap. I hear you. So, Sherry, tell me
Speaker 1: about your dogs. What kind of dogs do you have?
Speaker 1: Plot hound in the Corky plot in a corky Tell
Speaker 1: me tell me about your dogs. I love my dogs
Speaker 1: are awesome. What what's the bloodline like in your hog
Speaker 1: hunting with them? What? What tell me about them? A
Speaker 1: lot on our bloodline, aren't They were off across We
Speaker 1: got some dough. I got a female from Jerry Gas now,
Speaker 1: several years ago, she would have been about she's alive,
Speaker 1: she'd have been about ten probably. She's Jeep's mama and
Speaker 1: Jeep is uh fixing me eight, So yeah, she'd have
Speaker 1: been about ten probably, if she's still alive. And pretty
Speaker 1: much everything I got, I mean, we can trace it
Speaker 1: back to her, you know, I mean yeah, and uh
Speaker 1: we pretty much bred her offspring, you know, to outside males,
Speaker 1: you know, and then bread them back to our dogs
Speaker 1: and some mom's family tree. Don't forecat awful good, but
Speaker 1: it's well, that's what I think works good. You're the
Speaker 1: name of your kennel. What's on the papers of all
Speaker 1: your plots is how do you pronounce that? That's the
Speaker 1: name of this community right now. When it was Indian Territory,
Speaker 1: when uh it was in in territory, this was called Okeney.
Speaker 1: And when we share her first moved here, which moved here,
Speaker 1: I uh several years ago. There used to be a
Speaker 1: little school that was down there, and they moved it
Speaker 1: over to Clarita. And it's right down here to corner
Speaker 1: if you go straight north right here at our place.
Speaker 1: The county road curves in that corner right there. Was
Speaker 1: considered opening there was a school there and it stood
Speaker 1: there for several years until a few years from me
Speaker 1: and sure I got married, they moved it over here
Speaker 1: to Clarita. It's it has since fall out and everything,
Speaker 1: but there's actually still a graveyard back in there. And
Speaker 1: he moved here. I'll love here since twelve. Surely you
Speaker 1: live right in this area just with my mom and
Speaker 1: dad's place. And we lived next door and tell my
Speaker 1: mom dad passed away, got married, we bought the place
Speaker 1: that John's next to here. Okay, yeah, and I've lived
Speaker 1: here with her, Sherry for twenty years, but she's lived
Speaker 1: here like safe for five. Let's don't talk about that.
Speaker 1: So hey, Alan described for me the the plothound world,
Speaker 1: like like these guys like Roy Clark, like a lot
Speaker 1: of people would have heard me talk about Roy Clark
Speaker 1: in East Tennessee that has Laurel Mountain plots and then
Speaker 1: but you have the same thing going here with you.
Speaker 1: What I'm saying is described described kind of like how
Speaker 1: how groups with these line bred people are. People want
Speaker 1: their their stuff, and their stuff's the best, and they
Speaker 1: don't like to outsources. Well it's not so much the best,
Speaker 1: it's just that I mean there's so many when you're
Speaker 1: raising dogs, there's so many pups in a litter, you know,
Speaker 1: you obviously can't keep them all, and you want to
Speaker 1: know what they do and how they performed to kind
Speaker 1: of keep kind of quality control on your on your product.
Speaker 1: You know, what you're what you're producing, what the bloodline
Speaker 1: is producing, you know, and everything. And you kind of
Speaker 1: get you get you small circles, some guys you can trust,
Speaker 1: you know, and and and uh and you just kind
Speaker 1: of share your dogs, you know, and that's just kind
Speaker 1: of way you do it. And it's on I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just a blueprint of what Row has done, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to do. I mean, he's as good
Speaker 1: as it gets, you know, far a drumcer, and he's
Speaker 1: a legend in the sport, you know, and and breeding
Speaker 1: and hunting and everything. And and you see how he's
Speaker 1: done it. You know, he said it more than once
Speaker 1: on your podcast. He couldn't do it myself because it's
Speaker 1: just so many dogs, you know, and take so many people,
Speaker 1: you know, to keep it going. And and he's got
Speaker 1: him a small, tighten knit group and and there we're
Speaker 1: all working together, you know, and that's that's the only
Speaker 1: way you can do it. One guy can't feed sixty head,
Speaker 1: you know. And it takes literally takes nearly that many
Speaker 1: dogs to really get a good thing going, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. Yeah, And Brian Ringles and Jump, he's
Speaker 1: had some of my dogs, and then I've got some
Speaker 1: more friends around here. You know, it's had some And
Speaker 1: that's that's just the way I've tried hard. In Wisconsin.
Speaker 1: I got Wisconsin. You go up to Wisconsin hunting in
Speaker 1: different parts of the country, baron, baron hog Wisconsin in
Speaker 1: different places. They come down every year to our Wisconsin buddies. Yeah, hunting. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: why plot hounds sell me? Oh, don't get its started.
Speaker 1: I wanted, I wanted. I wanted this dog a long
Speaker 1: time for he didn't He would get me one until
Speaker 1: he wanted one. Oh really, you want to plot hounds first? Really? Yea?
Speaker 1: Did come on? Tell me I didn't know out there
Speaker 1: staying in West Virginia and Hitt knew. Yeah, that's she
Speaker 1: wanted the one when I was was uh had card
Speaker 1: dogs and crossbred dogs. You know. She always like the
Speaker 1: plots bring on color, you know, And I did too,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, did she just like it
Speaker 1: because of the color. I just want on. I was raised,
Speaker 1: my brother hunted all my life and hounds all accounts,
Speaker 1: and I like it that I think the pretty. And
Speaker 1: we was staying out in West Virginia for a while
Speaker 1: and I got noticing one and more of them out there.
Speaker 1: Didn't have any idea about them. I just wanted one.
Speaker 1: And truth is, I mean, yes, that's pretty much how
Speaker 1: it worked out. I mean I was out there, you know,
Speaker 1: and I met some hound hunters, didn't really hunt with
Speaker 1: anybody out there, and met some hound hunters around there,
Speaker 1: and plots were pretty popular out there, you know. And
Speaker 1: I got to send them around there and and got
Speaker 1: a few phone numbers some people, you know, and and
Speaker 1: she more or less talked man to it, you know.
Speaker 1: And and the first one I had is pretty good
Speaker 1: when it comes from Eugene Walker. It was a Pocahona's plot.
Speaker 1: Liked her and got something from Curtis Walker, you know,
Speaker 1: you went and met him, and and then I just
Speaker 1: got started trying different bloodlines. And then I got really
Speaker 1: intrigued with how how each bloodline was like a breed
Speaker 1: all in itself, you know what I mean, just like
Speaker 1: you could take a like Curtis Walker's dogs were nothing
Speaker 1: like Eugenes, and they were still plots, you know, just
Speaker 1: they've just been bred different for yous. You heard to
Speaker 1: find it, you can tell Steve Heard dog just looking
Speaker 1: at it, and it got interesting. It really got interesting
Speaker 1: to me. That's when I got into the kind of
Speaker 1: the breeding aspect of it. I kind of got interesting
Speaker 1: to me. But because how people could literally mold something
Speaker 1: to themselves, you know what I mean, It's like to
Speaker 1: fit the style exactly. Yeah, you could take you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, it just got interesting and I just got
Speaker 1: consumed with it, you know, and I just just all
Speaker 1: worked out. Okay, Thank you, Sherry, because I was gonna say,
Speaker 1: Alvin is the one that really sold me on plots
Speaker 1: even after I had one, because I got a plot
Speaker 1: almost on accident. Steve Heard and U, um, the dog
Speaker 1: what was the dog's name? Gunner? Bear Path, Gunner bear Path, Gunner.
Speaker 1: First dog that we ever did a legendary barehound article
Speaker 1: in for bare Honting magazine completely coincidentally was about Steve
Speaker 1: Heard's dog, bear Path Gunner. I mean, just totally random,
Speaker 1: and I got to know Eve my kids were the
Speaker 1: right age they needed a dog. We had gone years
Speaker 1: without having a dog, and they were just right for
Speaker 1: a dog. And uh so I ended up getting what
Speaker 1: I believe was a kind of a a dog that
Speaker 1: didn't make the cut for what Steve wanted, to be
Speaker 1: honest with you, because I told him, I said, I
Speaker 1: don't want a dog that hunt real hard. I want
Speaker 1: one to kind of be a pet in anyway, I
Speaker 1: get this dog from him, bring it home six months old.
Speaker 1: He tells me, all this dog is gonna do. And um,
Speaker 1: when it was eleven months old, it came in and
Speaker 1: did really good for me. And but so I called Alvin.
Speaker 1: I was gonna try to get another plot, and Alvin
Speaker 1: was like, man, you don't need you. You pretty much
Speaker 1: told me you'd help me find a pup, but you
Speaker 1: didn't think your bloodline would coon hunt the way I
Speaker 1: wanted one. Is that about right? So you didn't try
Speaker 1: to sell me. We don't. We don't have I would
Speaker 1: give them too if I thought they would have worked
Speaker 1: for we don't. Mike, are cuts sold? They are? They don't.
Speaker 1: They don't make it. Yeah, even think he takes pride
Speaker 1: in his dogs and not putting off a lot of crap.
Speaker 1: I mean I mean, how dogs that are bred for
Speaker 1: hog when there's stiffic specific traits and skill sets she's
Speaker 1: breed for for hogs? You know, you don't. That's got
Speaker 1: nothing to do with I mean, it's like I was saying, well, go,
Speaker 1: how these guys can shape these bloodlines to mask their dogs?
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, I mean a lot of my dogs
Speaker 1: on tree worth a flip, you know, And I knew that,
Speaker 1: you know, they got some tree bread into them almost
Speaker 1: with their plots. But I mean I haven't bred for
Speaker 1: that for years, and hadn't bread for cold drilling kinds
Speaker 1: of stuff, you know what. I'm just I knew the
Speaker 1: percentages would be so low it wasn't worth your time
Speaker 1: to mess with it, you know, so I didn't. But
Speaker 1: you taught me about the cult of the plot hound.
Speaker 1: And and I mean, really, you're the one who sold
Speaker 1: me on these guys like Roy Clark and Eugene Walker,
Speaker 1: and I mean all these guys that were big plot
Speaker 1: men and kind of how neat that was meant a
Speaker 1: lot of interesting people, as would be a strong word,
Speaker 1: but but it's it's pretty close, pretty close. I call
Speaker 1: it tight circles, you know, And it's just no I'll
Speaker 1: go with a cult. And now they would believe that
Speaker 1: they weren't even good for hog dogs because the barking track,
Speaker 1: but they come around. Yeah, people people thought that over
Speaker 1: the years. Now now, Jumpy, you probably don't like a
Speaker 1: Have you ever tried to plot for colin hunting? I
Speaker 1: have didn't work out? Did it? Now? It was one
Speaker 1: of my It happened just like I thought it would
Speaker 1: happen for you. But I'm a blue tick man. That's
Speaker 1: why he don't hurt with us. Yeah, what kind of
Speaker 1: what blood lone of blue ticks? Do you have? Echo? Echo?
Speaker 1: And that's a that's a line that kind of came
Speaker 1: out of Southeast Oklahoma. Come from Lane, Yeah, Lane, Oklahoma. Yeah.
Speaker 1: What what are their strongest characteristics? Cold nose, move track,
Speaker 1: good good tree dogs. I think they're pretty too accurate
Speaker 1: tree dogs most of more. Yeah. Yeah, well I started
Speaker 1: with blue ticks when I first started coon hunting. But anyway,
Speaker 1: I've joined the cult now, so I gotta have I
Speaker 1: gotta have plots out. A guy that I coon hunted
Speaker 1: a little bit with last year, he really wanted to
Speaker 1: go with me, he said, And when I got down
Speaker 1: to it, he said, Clay I've never seen a plot
Speaker 1: tree a coon now, I've always wanted to. He hunted
Speaker 1: a lot, He hunted with a lot of I was amazing.
Speaker 1: People didn't know what one was. We went when I
Speaker 1: had a signed bull. They were puppies and we took
Speaker 1: them to a lot of hog bands and people, what
Speaker 1: are the plots? They never heard of them. They heard
Speaker 1: him after that little series of summer things though, because
Speaker 1: they went and one a lot of stuff they did.
Speaker 1: And then the next year I went in there. I'm
Speaker 1: kind of a big head, thinking I was gonna win everything,
Speaker 1: and they were growing dogs in they went caught like
Speaker 1: a bulldog was over Yeah, straight up, never made to
Speaker 1: sound his point caught. So that was the end of
Speaker 1: their baying days. Yeah, do you hunt a lot with album?
Speaker 1: I used to anymore? Well, my knees hurt, okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 1: So now you got plots too, bro? Yeah? How many
Speaker 1: dogs you got? Oh, I'm I'll be feeding Tunior twil
Speaker 1: right now. I'll probably some coon dogs too, though, dogs
Speaker 1: coon dog. He's got a plethora of color out there
Speaker 1: my my dog yard. Right now. It looks like I
Speaker 1: rated the pound pretty much. I hear you. I hear you, Dave,
Speaker 1: you got any dogs? I got one dog. She's an
Speaker 1: American classic. What does that even mean? She's I thought
Speaker 1: he was gonna say you sit to you or something
Speaker 1: like that, and I was gonna, yeah, I was just
Speaker 1: gonna say, like something something a little okay, so you
Speaker 1: got you do have a dog? I do? Yeah? Where's
Speaker 1: the dog go when you go on these trips? Man? Oh?
Speaker 1: She stays with a friend in Missoula. Okay, yeah, okay, Hey,
Speaker 1: did y'all know Dave reminded me of this today and
Speaker 1: he told me not to bring it up. David's from
Speaker 1: New York. Do y'all know that yankee? Upstate New York? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Definitely from upstate New York. Is that's the bottom minute? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's downstate? Or how you speaking of stuff they
Speaker 1: do up north that we don't get to do that here?
Speaker 1: Dave killed an elk last week. I did do that.
Speaker 1: You did kill it the Oklahoma Dave? Why don't you
Speaker 1: go sitt in a truck? Yeah? Sure, you just you
Speaker 1: killed alkan Oklahoma. We'll come back to you, Dave. Maybe
Speaker 1: that's fine. When did you kill it out? It was
Speaker 1: like their third season wasn't it second or third, you know,
Speaker 1: they had they had got it. They started getting an
Speaker 1: established herd in certain little pockets of south eastern Oklahoma.
Speaker 1: And I guess it was I mean, I quote me
Speaker 1: any of this stuff, you know, but seven or eight,
Speaker 1: ten years ago they started having a season and we
Speaker 1: had the property we hunt, which is properly you're hunting now.
Speaker 1: And you've seen pictures of them they come to this
Speaker 1: year on some cameras. But there was some something in there,
Speaker 1: and you know, when we started entertaining the ideal trying
Speaker 1: to kill one, you know, there was a quota. Where
Speaker 1: did they come from? Where did they turn? Yea, literally
Speaker 1: they got loose from a ranch. Wow. But now they're
Speaker 1: regulated by the state. Yeah, the whole state is cutting
Speaker 1: four quarters in Oklahoma. Yeah, so then like out west,
Speaker 1: there's no quota. You know, places a cow elk out
Speaker 1: there in the quota was Yeah, she was the last
Speaker 1: one where he had to call her the morning, you know,
Speaker 1: make sure the quotas field. And we had some that
Speaker 1: was coming around some of our stand sites and come
Speaker 1: on the camera and on, and she just kept playing
Speaker 1: cat and mouse with him, you know, and I said,
Speaker 1: they're gonna feel the quota before you get to kill one,
Speaker 1: you know. And she called that evening and and uh,
Speaker 1: she said it's still open. I'm going hunting, which man
Speaker 1: reas one hunting too. We were actually youth hunting, me
Speaker 1: and my daughter. It's the first day use season. And
Speaker 1: my daughter had actually killed a dough and then uh,
Speaker 1: we'd shot the dough. And then when we recovered the dough,
Speaker 1: when a few minutes my phone started ringing, you know.
Speaker 1: And when we're hunting, you know, getting the text mess
Speaker 1: is not nothing unusual when you start getting phone calls
Speaker 1: that she's good shooting a lot. At the end of
Speaker 1: the day, you know, something's going on, you know. And
Speaker 1: I gotta I gott a cow, you know, and everything.
Speaker 1: I'm like, what'd you hit her? You know and everything?
Speaker 1: And she tells me all the stuff, and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: get oot for blood. So here we are tending to
Speaker 1: a dough, you know and everything. So I'll go walk
Speaker 1: through the truck, get the truck, drive down here with
Speaker 1: the doze. At by the time I get down here,
Speaker 1: shere he's found the cow, you know. And she tells me,
Speaker 1: She's like, it's such and such you do one tells
Speaker 1: me how to drive right towards she's at and uh,
Speaker 1: She's like, how are we gonna get down here? I said.
Speaker 1: She gives me a hard time about this, And I've
Speaker 1: been around. I'm not at West guy, you know, but
Speaker 1: I have been. I turned seen the cow before, and
Speaker 1: I mean me and a couple of guys loaded it
Speaker 1: in the back of a truck. So I was like, man,
Speaker 1: I can get it up in there, you know. She's like, what,
Speaker 1: I can get it up back of this truck from
Speaker 1: drive right there close to it, you know. So I'm
Speaker 1: driving around talking on the phone, you know, and uh,
Speaker 1: I still thinking I can get this hell in the truck.
Speaker 1: And I was dead wrong, and she's giving me a
Speaker 1: hard time. But I had And how man, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I couldn't flip it over. It was the lead cow.
Speaker 1: It was the biggest cow in the group. You know.
Speaker 1: There was there was an immature bull in there, and
Speaker 1: she she was gonna shoot you to the bull or whatever.
Speaker 1: You know. It's just kind of whatever. You know. It
Speaker 1: wasn't once in a lifetime deal kill no, And she
Speaker 1: was after whatever, you know, But she got a chance
Speaker 1: to cut that big cow. And and it was the
Speaker 1: biggest on a group. I don't know five d n,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know the big big me
Speaker 1: to put them back on a trup. Yeah. I just
Speaker 1: run my daughter's hunt and she said, you just head
Speaker 1: to up me. Well, Dave, you killed a little scrawny
Speaker 1: bull up in Montana. Oh yeah, my first bull. So
Speaker 1: that was pretty stoked. Yeah. So you moved from New
Speaker 1: York to Montana like five or six years ago, almost
Speaker 1: eight now, eight years ago. Yeah, I'm pre COVID and prettyellowstone,
Speaker 1: so I feel like I'm in the clear, you know,
Speaker 1: there you go. Yeah, okay, So so people that moved
Speaker 1: there after COVID, it's like a certain type of people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well the demographic has been changing. Yeah, yeah, okay for sure.
Speaker 1: So um but yeah, I killed the bull last week,
Speaker 1: my first bull. Been chasing him with a bow for
Speaker 1: quite a few years and a rifle. But I spent
Speaker 1: like twenty days in archery this season, missed one and
Speaker 1: then third day with a rifle. How big was how
Speaker 1: big were the how big was the rack? He's a
Speaker 1: six by six. Yeah, he's not a giant, but a
Speaker 1: good I feel like a good Yeah you were how
Speaker 1: far from the truck when you killed it. Uh. I
Speaker 1: was pretty lucky that I was only like two and
Speaker 1: a quarter miles because there was some points in archery scene. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's some chery and I was pretty far out. Um,
Speaker 1: So I shot at like two o'clock, and then that
Speaker 1: evening I quartered it up. I was by myself, quartered
Speaker 1: it up, took out a front quarter and all the
Speaker 1: loose meat, and then the next day I went in
Speaker 1: with a sled. I was a little far away from home,
Speaker 1: so trying to call friends to come help me pack out.
Speaker 1: It wasn't really it wasn't really working out. So the
Speaker 1: next morning I bought a sled, hiked in, put the
Speaker 1: other three quarters on a sled, and dragged it out.
Speaker 1: It wasn't too bad. You get to one in Pacalama's
Speaker 1: I seen it. Yeah, that's what he needs. I need
Speaker 1: to get a mule. I need to talk to Jump
Speaker 1: about buying one of the mules. We got. I got
Speaker 1: about tena over there. Yeah we didn't say that Jump
Speaker 1: is a muleman too. Hey, we were gonna talk about
Speaker 1: our squirrel hunt. You and Alvin, Brian, Brian Ringels and
Speaker 1: Alvin came up and squirrel hunted with me in February.
Speaker 1: We were just gonna hunt pretty much one day, right,
Speaker 1: and y'all brought your horses and I had the mule,
Speaker 1: and we had an uneventful squirrel hunt in terms of
Speaker 1: killing squirrels. But we went to a big property and
Speaker 1: I had my two fights and and they hunted out
Speaker 1: in front of us while we rode down some just
Speaker 1: basically old roads. And yeah, that that was. That's all
Speaker 1: I can remember is that I was riding to a
Speaker 1: tree and the dogs were treated, and I took a
Speaker 1: stick in the eye, which I mean isn't terribly uncommon.
Speaker 1: I just kind of thought I could just blank it out,
Speaker 1: and man, it just kept getting It. Probably happened that
Speaker 1: I don't know, ten o'clock in the morning. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: had already shot the only squirrel to be shot. And
Speaker 1: what happened, actually, I'll get this story for all the listeners.
Speaker 1: What actually happened was the squirrels were starting to move
Speaker 1: pretty good and we were starting to get a lot
Speaker 1: more trees, and Clay new I was fixing to put
Speaker 1: on this squirrel shooting exhibition, and that's what happened. I
Speaker 1: don't I don't know if I've witnessed it. That way
Speaker 1: for sure or not, but maybe I was missing something. Uh,
Speaker 1: it was something like that. It was something like that.
Speaker 1: So you poked yourself. Now, where are you going to day?
Speaker 1: My chair just had a blowout. Oh wow, they've lost
Speaker 1: a chair. This is what happens when you been sitting
Speaker 1: in the tree stand for a couple of days. Well,
Speaker 1: that's my new chill rocking chair. My friend get me,
Speaker 1: we gotta, we gotta. Yeah, just go over there and
Speaker 1: get that chair. Okay, when that kind of stuff happens
Speaker 1: to skinny people, makes you feel good a chair now.
Speaker 1: So I was, I was riding, riding to the squirrel tree,
Speaker 1: took a stick in the eye. Didn't think I mean,
Speaker 1: it hurt right away, but you know, probably a few
Speaker 1: minutes later, I was like, man, I took a stick
Speaker 1: in the eye, cant already see on this eye? And man,
Speaker 1: rather than getting better, it just kept getting worse. Well,
Speaker 1: probably two hours later I couldn't hardly see how to
Speaker 1: either eye. And it was like probably one o'clock and
Speaker 1: these guys had driven hours to come up here and
Speaker 1: hunt for one day and I couldn't see. Alvin had
Speaker 1: to drive my truck driving me to the eye doctor.
Speaker 1: Why don't. Did you take me straight to the now?
Speaker 1: I took you home and Misty Head came to get you.
Speaker 1: That's right. And anyway, I went to the eye doctor
Speaker 1: and I had scraped five layers off my cornea, which
Speaker 1: sounds worse than it than it is. They put a
Speaker 1: medicated contact lens over your eye and basically that's all
Speaker 1: they do, and it and it heals. But that's all.
Speaker 1: Who's year after the fabrication knew of the eyepatch that
Speaker 1: we did out there in the woods. For what we do.
Speaker 1: I forgot to cut a piece of a saddle blanket
Speaker 1: off or something I can't remember, and you tied it
Speaker 1: around your head was something. It was pretty primitive. Yeah,
Speaker 1: killing it. No, I told Alvin this the other day.
Speaker 1: So I'm relatively new to the equine world. I mean
Speaker 1: I was an adult when I started riding quite a bit.
Speaker 1: And um, we were riding. So when I go with
Speaker 1: people that have been around, you know, have have been
Speaker 1: riding and doing stuff their whole lives. I'm paying attention,
Speaker 1: trying to learn something when I was When when we
Speaker 1: were riding, we we came to a rocky a real
Speaker 1: steep rocky bluff and uh. And I didn't blame Alvin
Speaker 1: a bit. He stepped off as we rode through some
Speaker 1: pre ruugh stuff and when we came to the spot,
Speaker 1: it was brushy and about a probably a three and
Speaker 1: a half foot drop of slick rock. Real bad too,
Speaker 1: you know it potential sliding down and uh man, I
Speaker 1: I mean, I think any horse guy, mule guy would
Speaker 1: pride himself on not getting off, and so I would
Speaker 1: be in that category. But when I saw you get off,
Speaker 1: I went and looked it over and was like, you
Speaker 1: know what, I think I'll get off too, which is
Speaker 1: pretty rare. It's pretty rough little spot. So me and
Speaker 1: you just let our you're a horse by mule down
Speaker 1: this little deal and coming up Brian's coming up behind
Speaker 1: us on his Mustang and and I just know he's
Speaker 1: about to get off, and he doesn't get off, and
Speaker 1: he does the man from Snowy River deal off the
Speaker 1: off of this thing and leans back and this back
Speaker 1: was on the butt of that horse. And I was impressed.
Speaker 1: I was thoroughly impressed with that. That you didn't get
Speaker 1: off your horse. That was probably just pure de laziness
Speaker 1: on my part. You just didn't want to get off.
Speaker 1: Tell me about your horse. What kind of horse you got?
Speaker 1: He's a Mustang out of Arranging, Nevada as where he
Speaker 1: come out of what I'm here in a wild horse.
Speaker 1: The paperwork no, uh, I've got two of them, but
Speaker 1: he was. The paperwork on him says he was a
Speaker 1: four year old when they gathered him off the range,
Speaker 1: and I've been using him since he was about ten.
Speaker 1: I bought him. I bought him already broke from some
Speaker 1: more guys that had actually been roping cabs on him
Speaker 1: and using him on a ranch. But he's made a
Speaker 1: nice hunting horse. And he's actually on his way back
Speaker 1: from New Mexico elk season right now, on the second
Speaker 1: gun season. Some boys borrowed him and took him out there.
Speaker 1: What is there legitimate stuff about what those a Mustang
Speaker 1: would be better at than just regular horse that had
Speaker 1: been bred and raised in captivity. I think so well,
Speaker 1: it's just got to do with the same as about
Speaker 1: he was talking about line breeding the dogs and stuff
Speaker 1: like that, you know, I mean, they're just the hybrid
Speaker 1: vigors there, and the survival of the fittest has been
Speaker 1: there from natural selection for so long as what makes
Speaker 1: them our gene pool, so much difference you know from
Speaker 1: the domestic course that we race here, you know, has
Speaker 1: been so they're actually selecting for characteristics of survival that
Speaker 1: work for a horse on the range. Naturally that happened,
Speaker 1: you know, yes, to where we've selected for different performance
Speaker 1: aspects on the in the courter horse world or whatever
Speaker 1: the other you know, domestic course might be. So that's
Speaker 1: the difference. They're just naturally selected for brains, toughness. You know,
Speaker 1: they don't have feet problems. They don't have teeth problems.
Speaker 1: That stuff weeded itself out. You know. You can fix
Speaker 1: the colt's feet with the shoes, but you they're born
Speaker 1: that away. If they don't have feet right feet, they die, right.
Speaker 1: I see what's say? Now? That brings up a good question,
Speaker 1: and we we're gonna get to talking about r T
Speaker 1: soon enough. Okay, people ask me this and I don't
Speaker 1: have a good answer. I like having good answers when
Speaker 1: people ask me stuff. Every today. Most modern horses have
Speaker 1: to be shod or they'll go lame. I mean, for
Speaker 1: the most part. Or is that it's true statement? Well,
Speaker 1: depending on their job, that can be a true statement. Yes,
Speaker 1: you know, there's a couple of reasons. This is gonna
Speaker 1: be very broad, but there's a couple of reasons to
Speaker 1: shoot a horse, and it's you're gonna be either two
Speaker 1: for protection or some type of a dietary that they
Speaker 1: need to overcome a genetic issue, you know. And so yes,
Speaker 1: most performance horses today have to be shod and some
Speaker 1: wear another because they kind of let that part of
Speaker 1: the selection in the breeding be on the back burner
Speaker 1: for so long. So that's why a wild horse wouldn't
Speaker 1: have to had shoes a thousand years ago. It was
Speaker 1: because he was selected for having good feet. Well, yes,
Speaker 1: that's true, you know, unless they had some type of
Speaker 1: job that they're wearing off more than they can grow back,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean even uh, I read a book
Speaker 1: just the other day. It said that there was some
Speaker 1: some of the Apache Indians even would cut a piece
Speaker 1: of skin off of the hip of their horse whenever
Speaker 1: they was riding one and he was about to give
Speaker 1: up on them and put that over their foot, you know.
Speaker 1: So people have been a half horse actually off the
Speaker 1: same horse they were riding, you know. And but they
Speaker 1: didn't need to be shod for purposes like balance and
Speaker 1: pedietary and that kind of thing where you was correcting
Speaker 1: genetic issues. They just had to be shot because you
Speaker 1: were wearing more foot off the naked girl back. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know in rough Rocky capturin you know. So it
Speaker 1: depends on their job cutting holder. Stud can get down
Speaker 1: on his belly and cut a cat like no other
Speaker 1: and he's got a crooked foot. He's still getting bread
Speaker 1: and he's still passing him genetics on down their line.
Speaker 1: I see what you're saying. So if there's one that's
Speaker 1: real good at this other stuff, feet aren't that big
Speaker 1: a deal. You can fix the feet with a farrier,
Speaker 1: but not in the well. But not in the well. Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's why me and Jumpy ride mules. Right, jump right up.
Speaker 1: I heard he has one that loves seems what your
Speaker 1: wife told me, Mad and Bailey, Yeah, that's what she
Speaker 1: called it, all right, RTI Stewart's secret agent man. What'd
Speaker 1: you take? Alvin? What stood out to you? You know? Uh?
Speaker 1: When I first started listening to the the part about
Speaker 1: leading double lives, you know, and kind of missing with
Speaker 1: him his mind, you know, Yeah, that was something I
Speaker 1: never would have thought of. You know what. It's kind
Speaker 1: of like, Oh, I never would have thought of that,
Speaker 1: you know, and that really was probably about his interesting.
Speaker 1: I mean, that was probably most interesting, don't get wrong.
Speaker 1: I mean I'm looking forward to episode two where he
Speaker 1: talks about some of the different you know jobs he
Speaker 1: was on you know, and and what what some of
Speaker 1: the things were that were happening that they put a
Speaker 1: stop too, and stuff like that. But from the first one,
Speaker 1: that was pretty much what was kind of something I
Speaker 1: never would have thought of, kind of kind of come
Speaker 1: across pretty interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I want to know his wife,
Speaker 1: he was married, he was how she took it, because
Speaker 1: you can't tell me if he's leading a double life.
Speaker 1: He wasn't leading the hanging out with Buddy's partying and drinking. Well.
Speaker 1: He rt is very open about this stuff. It's in
Speaker 1: his book, So I feel like I can say this,
Speaker 1: and he even said it on the podcast. It just
Speaker 1: didn't make the cut. But like he he lost his wife,
Speaker 1: he lost his marriage, uh during that time, and he
Speaker 1: he's really open about it about how he uh yeah,
Speaker 1: it did affect his marriage, and I felt I felt
Speaker 1: sorry for him, and he said, you know what, I
Speaker 1: didn't go to graduation and stuff. He he didn't get
Speaker 1: paid enough for that. Yeah, and they already say, you
Speaker 1: know he eve regretted, he wouldn't do that. You know
Speaker 1: I wouldn't do it again. Yeah, did it strike y'all
Speaker 1: as and this is an honest question to any of you,
Speaker 1: did it strike y'all as unique that he was is
Speaker 1: open about that stuff as he was, I mean about
Speaker 1: like making mistakes, because I mean it seems to me
Speaker 1: like people well or or or just find a way
Speaker 1: to justify it or blame it on someone else. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's like we have all these mechanisms to deal with
Speaker 1: kind of the way we've maybe mess stuff up. And
Speaker 1: he was just like, yeah, pretty much. Is he not
Speaker 1: worried about him because he wrecked people's lives? And I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess he's missing with hins, that's different, but you miss,
Speaker 1: really he'll don't like it. You know, they still could
Speaker 1: come get you twenty years later. They're not gonna forget.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to how if he that back was mine? Yeah,
Speaker 1: if he if he was ever worried about retaliation from people.
Speaker 1: Some people are just more open than other people. I mean,
Speaker 1: some people will talk about things it's like it's nothing,
Speaker 1: and some people want that's about all your Felons album.
Speaker 1: He's perfect. He's perfect, but also too. I just had
Speaker 1: this thought when you were saying that, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: this guy lived up a live of life for so
Speaker 1: many years. It may be a breath of fresh air
Speaker 1: for him to tell you everything you want to know
Speaker 1: about himself. Right, Yeah, it could be. I mean, would
Speaker 1: you do it jumping? Ask that again? You do that?
Speaker 1: Going to cover and leave your daughter, grandkids? I wouldn't
Speaker 1: have made a good undercover do y'all? Do you all
Speaker 1: work with any undercover agents drug people people? Yes? So
Speaker 1: how would that work with you? With you? I mean,
Speaker 1: can you talk about that? I'm not probably not a
Speaker 1: whole lot. But when we have something going on, well
Speaker 1: we'll call some of them guys and have them come
Speaker 1: in and try to make some buys or something for us.
Speaker 1: Kind of works a long same lines. What RT was done?
Speaker 1: What do you think Jumpy? Just overall? Well, I tell
Speaker 1: you a whole lot of things he talked about I
Speaker 1: can relate to, and uh, it's really intrigued with the
Speaker 1: psychology part of it. And uh, we'll first off, you know,
Speaker 1: he's got a pin full of blue ticks. I got
Speaker 1: a pinfull he was thirty five when he started law enforcement.
Speaker 1: That was thirty five when I started. So but the stress,
Speaker 1: you know, it's unbelievable what kind of stress UH police
Speaker 1: officer goes through? And I just only imagined what he stress,
Speaker 1: this constant stress like that. Yeah, I thought it was
Speaker 1: so fascinating when that psychologist Dr. Matthew Sharps I was
Speaker 1: talking about how humans were designed to handle acute stress,
Speaker 1: which is acute means short term stress because of our
Speaker 1: hunter gatherer roots, but we don't have any mechanism deal
Speaker 1: with chronic stress. I love that guy man I when
Speaker 1: we contacted him, he's from uh California State University, I
Speaker 1: think in Fresno, and I was I was very happy
Speaker 1: that he was pumped that we were a hunting related
Speaker 1: podcast like he. I wasn't so sure if he knew
Speaker 1: what he's getting into, but he was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: he's studied quite a bit about UH. He had, he
Speaker 1: had a lot of knowledge. But I thought that was
Speaker 1: an insightful thing. I would have never thought about that.
Speaker 1: Even the way we're wired is built for UH, you
Speaker 1: know kind of comes back from our background. What what
Speaker 1: anything else stand out to Yes, he got close to
Speaker 1: some of those guys, And uh, I relate the same
Speaker 1: way with some of the some of our inmates that
Speaker 1: we have, people that we were as of course, I
Speaker 1: was raised here in Cold County. It's a small county. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I know most other people that were putting in jail,
Speaker 1: and I have work crew and a lot of times
Speaker 1: I'll get the guys out and walk down highway picking
Speaker 1: up trash or mos cemetery. Well, you get kind of
Speaker 1: in about ninety percent of the guys once they get
Speaker 1: in jail and get sobered up, they're pretty good people,
Speaker 1: pretty decent people. You kind of get, uh, kind of
Speaker 1: get a relationship with them, you know, kind of become friends,
Speaker 1: and it's easy to get close to him, to them
Speaker 1: guys like that. Yeah, and uh, I just make it
Speaker 1: clear with them. You know, some of some of the
Speaker 1: ones we put in jail or deer hunters or coon hunters,
Speaker 1: old hunters, and some of them just bad people. They're
Speaker 1: never gonna get any better. But when they get out,
Speaker 1: the ones will get close to they get out and
Speaker 1: they know they get out there and get the messing
Speaker 1: up again that you know they're not gonna get no
Speaker 1: break or going to right back to jail. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: you're saying the relationship maybe helps helps them stay straight
Speaker 1: in the future. Not very many. No, No, they all
Speaker 1: want to when they go to jail gets straight. We're
Speaker 1: not doing this again. We're not coming back. Most of
Speaker 1: them is back within a few months, all right, back
Speaker 1: in the same crowd. If they don't change the company
Speaker 1: they run with and don't get a job to keep
Speaker 1: their hands busy, stay out of trouble, they end up
Speaker 1: right back in jail. Most of them do, not all
Speaker 1: of them, but most of them do. Yeah, they end
Speaker 1: up right back in jail. Most of them do. Not
Speaker 1: all of them, but most of them do. M What
Speaker 1: would you think that a guy like RT, like his
Speaker 1: life would have really been in danger with wildlife criminals
Speaker 1: like he was dealing with. No, not around here, he wouldn't. Uh.
Speaker 1: I don't know how the laws are in Ohio. But
Speaker 1: in Oklahoma the wildlife laws are all misdemeanors. And how
Speaker 1: are you how are they in the Ohio I don't know,
Speaker 1: because we have the lazy act here. Of course, that's
Speaker 1: if you carought take a legal game a cross state line,
Speaker 1: that's a failed me. But most just like somebody going
Speaker 1: out here poaching deer. That's a misdemeanor, you know, a fine.
Speaker 1: They rarely put somebody in jail. They do, but it's
Speaker 1: not real commonly. Yeah, you can leave you hunting license over,
Speaker 1: you know that. I wouldn't take a chance on it.
Speaker 1: He had a lifetime hunting license. Think he lose that? Um?
Speaker 1: I think I definitely there was some felonies given out
Speaker 1: to some of the guys that he was. He was
Speaker 1: after he almost have to be justified the time and
Speaker 1: money spent putting into it. A spoiler for the next episode. Um.
Speaker 1: He he tells the story where he's with these guys
Speaker 1: and basically his undercover world means that he he cannot
Speaker 1: he can break the law, like he could actually go
Speaker 1: shoot a turkey if he felt like it was in
Speaker 1: the name of keeping his cover and was gonna help
Speaker 1: bust these guys like so, so, these undercover guys have
Speaker 1: some liberty to do the work that they need to do.
Speaker 1: And in all his work, he only killed one illegal animal,
Speaker 1: which I thought was pretty incredible because he was on
Speaker 1: hundreds of illegal deer and turkey kills. He sounds like
Speaker 1: an awesome job party running on a shoot crap. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't want to come home either. Surery, you just exposed
Speaker 1: your deep motivations. Uh no, But he said the one
Speaker 1: thing that he couldn't do in his undercover position was
Speaker 1: knowingly commit a felony. And one time he was with
Speaker 1: these guys and he's driving the poach coach and they
Speaker 1: go into a gas station and rob it and come back.
Speaker 1: He just he's out there pumping gas and has no
Speaker 1: knowledge of it, and he, uh, it's just a total spoiler.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna, I'm gonna it's just a cool story here
Speaker 1: and to tell it. But basically they come back out
Speaker 1: and they're like, let's go, golt golts go, and he's like,
Speaker 1: what happened? What's going on? And they robbed the store
Speaker 1: and he turned on his video cameras so that the
Speaker 1: video would pick up that he didn't know about it.
Speaker 1: So he he was like, man, I had no idea
Speaker 1: you guys were gonna do that, and they were like, well,
Speaker 1: it just happened. We you know. He he wanted it
Speaker 1: because he would have gotten trouble, and turns out there's
Speaker 1: a lot of liability with being an undercover agent. He
Speaker 1: was constantly worried about him get himself getting in trouble.
Speaker 1: But the other thing that happened spoiler alert to is
Speaker 1: that he he's with these guys one night and they're
Speaker 1: they're plotting to kill a guy that had turned them
Speaker 1: into the game warden. Like literally he is over hearing
Speaker 1: a conversation. Well, no, no, no, no, no, it wasn't
Speaker 1: it wasn't even that straightforward. He had somehow had his
Speaker 1: uh uh surveillance equipment on and he overheard the guys
Speaker 1: in the poach coach talking about how they were gonna
Speaker 1: kill such and such and such like had a plan,
Speaker 1: but he didn't hear. He didn't hear in person. He
Speaker 1: goes back and listens to the tape. Here's them plot
Speaker 1: in this murder, but in Ohio. For a conversation to
Speaker 1: be recorded, at least one person in the conversation hasn't
Speaker 1: been aware of what's happened. No, so he calls his
Speaker 1: boss and he says, hey, we gotta sticky situation. These
Speaker 1: guys are gonna kill this guy and I know this,
Speaker 1: but I know this illegally, and and so what do
Speaker 1: we do? And basically the boss was like, we just
Speaker 1: got to write it out. And anyway, they ended up
Speaker 1: not killing the guy, but just constantly finding himself in
Speaker 1: pretty wild situations. Yeah, and I mean they're rough folks. Man.
Speaker 1: I thought I said it early on in the podcast,
Speaker 1: and it was stuck with me, and I was like, man,
Speaker 1: he said that, and corrat me if I heard it wrong.
Speaker 1: But he said that every person he was investigating, at
Speaker 1: some point in time during the course of the the
Speaker 1: mission or whatever, they had questioned him about are you
Speaker 1: proudly are you under cover? Every one of them? And
Speaker 1: I thought, I mean, the first thing I thought was,
Speaker 1: I mean, if if I think you're undercover, you're saying no,
Speaker 1: I'm not. It's not good enough for me. I don't
Speaker 1: understand months and him doing Sady Crepton. I guess maybe
Speaker 1: so I don't know, I thought, I mean, I can't believe.
Speaker 1: I can't believe no one figured out. I mean, I
Speaker 1: guess he's good, good, good What he did? You know? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know. I mean, you think about it.
Speaker 1: Every single situation he was the new guy, I mean,
Speaker 1: just because they didn't know him from childhood. I mean,
Speaker 1: like literally he was the new guy. And in every
Speaker 1: situation he was deep in with these guys and was
Speaker 1: going out and poaching with him big time. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: I I think sometimes it was joking. It would just
Speaker 1: be like, man, I bet R two is a game Warden, Dave,
Speaker 1: what do you think, man, you said he had some
Speaker 1: serious thoughts. Well, I have some thoughts. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It seemed I don't know to the extent of what
Speaker 1: he was catching people doing. But I mean, like he said,
Speaker 1: he got close to some of these guys and he's
Speaker 1: like he knew he was about to ruin their lives.
Speaker 1: And I don't know, it just seems it's like going
Speaker 1: undercover like that for that long. It seems really deceitful
Speaker 1: and for I imagine mostly these situations, these guys were
Speaker 1: doing crimes far beyond just like shooting some more you'd
Speaker 1: have turkeys and do that, dear. But yeah, it just
Speaker 1: seemed a little it seems over intrusive, Yeah, a little
Speaker 1: little icky, almost almost wildlife violations. They're not I mean,
Speaker 1: they're not shooting the last rhino or you know, or yeah,
Speaker 1: let me say that. If you read the book, which
Speaker 1: the book is called Poachers Were My Prey, and it's
Speaker 1: a very well written book. Chip Growths, the guy that
Speaker 1: was on there he he wrote, he actually wrote the
Speaker 1: book and it the book is very well written. It's
Speaker 1: like well done, and all of these anything ART was
Speaker 1: called on was pretty major. I mean, for instance, there's
Speaker 1: and I won't talk about this, Art doesn't talk about this,
Speaker 1: but one of the chapters was about poachers from West
Speaker 1: Virginia that were literally krding for years enormous amounts of deer, turkey, squirrels,
Speaker 1: any any kind of meat that they could get, taken
Speaker 1: it to Cincinnati, Ohio to sell to restaurants. Really yeah,
Speaker 1: and so RT, yeah, so RT goes there and uh
Speaker 1: and he's like these guys are selling to these people
Speaker 1: and and uh they you know, he infiltrates and like
Speaker 1: it's like the super underground thing and basically they were
Speaker 1: putting it in stir fry for real, the whole whole
Speaker 1: chapter about it. Like that's pretty serious, you know. And
Speaker 1: then and then the other guys, like when he got
Speaker 1: really the guy he talks about that he got so
Speaker 1: close to those guys in in In he he worked
Speaker 1: that case for like seventeen months. RT himself was on
Speaker 1: with one guy was on. He couldn't even remember how
Speaker 1: many turkeys before season. That guy poached. He said, oh,
Speaker 1: probably around he said, between forty and sixty. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean that's a lot of turkeys in one season
Speaker 1: for one guy. I mean, that's pretty serious stuff. So
Speaker 1: that's why they're going to that extent. But yeah, they're
Speaker 1: not trying to catch a guy out here. That's you know,
Speaker 1: trying to sms limited squirrels. Yeah, I mean, trying to
Speaker 1: get the bigger guy and probably take down more people.
Speaker 1: But I don't understand how you can go along with
Speaker 1: forty two sixty turkey kills and just I mean, right
Speaker 1: at some point in time, this is what we're trying
Speaker 1: to stop. Well, and he he talks about that and
Speaker 1: all that stuff is like very much on their minds,
Speaker 1: and what they were doing was, um, they had by
Speaker 1: the time he was going after one guy, and by
Speaker 1: the time he was done, they had twenty six people
Speaker 1: that were deeply involved in this that he had evidence on.
Speaker 1: And so like, you know, maybe they've got this guy,
Speaker 1: but they're still working on this guy, and the sting
Speaker 1: has to come down at one time, so they say, hey, man,
Speaker 1: we need two more months. And during that two month time,
Speaker 1: he's got to maintain his cover and do his stuff,
Speaker 1: and he actually said that, he said, there came a
Speaker 1: point when we just had to say, oh, enough is
Speaker 1: enough for the people of Ohio. We gotta bring this down.
Speaker 1: So if you read his book, he's gonna explain all this.
Speaker 1: He explains it because I don't have to read it,
Speaker 1: because I just can't write my mind around all that.
Speaker 1: For me, Yeah, it's pretty wild that I started talking
Speaker 1: about buying new vehicles and renting houses for time, and
Speaker 1: I started thinking, I mean, I would I started trying
Speaker 1: to imagine in my head actual like a analytical sheet
Speaker 1: you know, that showed how much money they spent and
Speaker 1: all the actual convictions they got, and started trying to
Speaker 1: just imagine what I mean, it's probably gonna break down
Speaker 1: to millions of dollars, you know, for I mean, obviously
Speaker 1: several several convictions. But yeah, it's kind of mean. Natural
Speaker 1: resources gotta be protected. But at some point in time,
Speaker 1: you can't spend billions millions of taxpayers dollars, you know.
Speaker 1: But like you said, there's some pretty big cases, you know,
Speaker 1: don't wonder I wonder, I wonder how that money could
Speaker 1: have been spent towards. Like I started thinking about how
Speaker 1: many of these guys, we gotta fire to buy a
Speaker 1: bunch of public lan Well, I mean, those are legitimate questions,
Speaker 1: I think. I mean, first of all, back in the nineties,
Speaker 1: I think they were on such shoestring budgets to actual
Speaker 1: money that they spent on these things was relatively small,
Speaker 1: you know. But I think wildlife enforcement over the years,
Speaker 1: it's almost like, uh, what do they say that there's
Speaker 1: there's some there's some if if if people know that
Speaker 1: that's going on and that they're seeing people go to
Speaker 1: jail and get felonies for stuff, kind of it's like
Speaker 1: having an unhunted population of grizzlies in the West. They
Speaker 1: get super aggressive because there's no penalty for doing bad.
Speaker 1: When there's a penalty for doing bad, it kind of
Speaker 1: filters of the whole system. That's the way I think
Speaker 1: about undercover. Is that pretty close? Yeah, just because I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, if all I have to do is dodge
Speaker 1: got in a uniform, I mean maybe that's I mean,
Speaker 1: there's ways to do. Even even Russ Arthur the the
Speaker 1: the Forest Service agent who interviewed Louis Dell or try
Speaker 1: which worked on Louisdell and Charlie Edwards. He the first
Speaker 1: thing he said to me, as he said, Clay, how
Speaker 1: hard is it for a a single poacher to evade
Speaker 1: one man that has to cover seven counties? You know?
Speaker 1: Basically he was like, it's not hard to get away
Speaker 1: with breaking the law and uh. And so anyway, the
Speaker 1: undercover thing, though, kind of filters out and it's like,
Speaker 1: holy holy smoked, better be watching ourselves. How bad did
Speaker 1: that bother him? Knowing he was putting these met in
Speaker 1: jealful stuff that he was doing right along with them. Well,
Speaker 1: I think that's just part of the job. It's kind
Speaker 1: of like, you know, does the bull rider get upset
Speaker 1: when they get hurt? It's like they ride bulls. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I don't think that's just part of the deal.
Speaker 1: You know, you would bother me that I would. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, better than them to a sence, because you're
Speaker 1: going along with it. Well, and that's kind of what
Speaker 1: I built up in the thing, is that, like it's
Speaker 1: it's an odd philosophical and ethical position to go and
Speaker 1: break the law. Yeah. Yeah, this this undercover agent deal
Speaker 1: being a deterrent, you know, like you're explaining, and that
Speaker 1: makes great sense. But I had a thought on that
Speaker 1: right there. You know what I mean, it's regionally, it's
Speaker 1: it basically blows your cover, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I mean, once a big bus happens in Southeast Ohio,
Speaker 1: you're not making it. You don't infiltrate no more poaching
Speaker 1: rings in that area for a long long time. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just big news. Everyone knows the undercover and they
Speaker 1: it comes out in the news stories. You knowing that
Speaker 1: how many years a had and and there's poaching ring?
Speaker 1: Is it probably like it probably just helped them, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, which if you read the book and there's
Speaker 1: no way that you know in our podcast is going
Speaker 1: to give you all the details of this book, here's
Speaker 1: the way it would go down. Is a lot of
Speaker 1: times they wouldn't Well, this doesn't directly answer your question.
Speaker 1: I see what you're saying, But as far as Art goes,
Speaker 1: he was able to work in the same general kind
Speaker 1: of Southeast Ohio for his whole career because a lot
Speaker 1: sometimes they didn't even know who the undercover guy was.
Speaker 1: Before social media is yeah, I don't think you get
Speaker 1: buy that now because you can reverse image search and
Speaker 1: find you know, find anything. Yeah, there would be platform
Speaker 1: of social media available that people are looking at twenty
Speaker 1: four hours a day, seven days a week. Nowadays, it
Speaker 1: would be blown all over, you know, and it would
Speaker 1: be that they might not even know. They would just
Speaker 1: be like you remember that Bob Thomas Skot he was
Speaker 1: my neighbor for two years and he moved. He did
Speaker 1: he come out always not always. What I'm saying is
Speaker 1: they don't necessarily have to know who it is. They
Speaker 1: just have to. They just have to know that. You
Speaker 1: gotta be careful. They're using undercover agents now and and
Speaker 1: therefore no one's even if no one not infiltrating, infiltrating
Speaker 1: that group of people, because they're aware. Now. The other
Speaker 1: thing I learned in this is that they're also what
Speaker 1: they call I think they call winding informants. Is that
Speaker 1: phrase makes sense jumpy where basically where if you were
Speaker 1: if if you were a bad poacher and there was
Speaker 1: somebody close to you that got arrested, they could come
Speaker 1: to him and say, make a plea deal with him
Speaker 1: if they'll help catch this guy. So you could have
Speaker 1: a wedding informant, which means an informant that is working
Speaker 1: along with the undercovers. So it could be your best friend.
Speaker 1: But it's not a good life when everybody finds out
Speaker 1: about it. No, it's not. It's a dangerous one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of it's there's a lot of and
Speaker 1: he goes through the law like in the book, kind
Speaker 1: of like how stuff legally works. And it is pretty interesting.
Speaker 1: But my question is good RT catch Louis Deal. I
Speaker 1: don't think so. Good question. I don't think so. Man,
Speaker 1: He's like the ghost coon. You ain't catch any Did
Speaker 1: you listen to the together? Yeah? Yeah. I want to
Speaker 1: say when Louis Delle said, hey, are you're a private
Speaker 1: an investigator and he said no, I want to say,
Speaker 1: Louis Deal would have followed up. He would have done
Speaker 1: some more recon y'all y'all heard it on there when
Speaker 1: when RT like elephant in the in the room when
Speaker 1: I said I've heard of undercover agents that like live
Speaker 1: in the area and drive a couple hours and just
Speaker 1: kind of have and he said, oh, that's playing undercover.
Speaker 1: That's playing you know. He didn't know that I had
Speaker 1: interviewed a guy and it was kind of I can't
Speaker 1: throw Russ under the button. That was just what they
Speaker 1: had available. He that's just the way they had to
Speaker 1: do it. They didn't have a big budget, he wasn't
Speaker 1: more trained for their tax dollars. Well, but I think
Speaker 1: if they had gone in and I think RT would
Speaker 1: have caught him. I think I think it sounds like
Speaker 1: r D's the goat comes to this undercovered stuff. RT.
Speaker 1: He he sounded like he was probably as good as
Speaker 1: you could be at that job. Yeah, I think he's
Speaker 1: real deal. What was it? What was the timeline that
Speaker 1: he was he was doing this? What years um, late
Speaker 1: eighties through eighteen years past that? So like the mid
Speaker 1: you know, like two thousand six or four, question for you.
Speaker 1: So I wonder how much since the emergence social media
Speaker 1: they've had to they they haven't had to go undercover
Speaker 1: as much and totally different. So Russ Arthur, the Sports
Speaker 1: Servants law enforcement guy that I interviewed, he called the
Speaker 1: Forest Service before he talked to me and just said, Hey,
Speaker 1: is it okay? If I talked to this guy and
Speaker 1: they were like sure, and and he said it was
Speaker 1: because the undercover world is so vastly different. Used to
Speaker 1: you could just show up and have an I D
Speaker 1: and say maybe searching Bob Thomas's social media for the
Speaker 1: last twenty years right now if you showed up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's different tactics. My question, if they took that
Speaker 1: many turkeys, how do you affect population in years after that?
Speaker 1: Because I know turkey uh density As a question thinking
Speaker 1: you like to follow up one? You know how it
Speaker 1: is that they were if you can kill forty turkeys
Speaker 1: and you're in a good turkey area number one, Um,
Speaker 1: so they had they had a robust population. How was
Speaker 1: it that, Well, you need to figure that out. I
Speaker 1: don't know, you need looking at that. Yeah, well they
Speaker 1: they it's it's definitely you know the in the in
Speaker 1: the the ethical position is that for that is that
Speaker 1: game populations are owned by all the people. So that
Speaker 1: guy was taking more than this year, so he was
Speaker 1: taking game away from other people, you know, And so
Speaker 1: it sounds like they didn't have to men hunters back then.
Speaker 1: If you had that many turnkeys that were good area,
Speaker 1: they were in a good area. What do you think
Speaker 1: about it? Mr? Ferrier? Well, a couple of things jumped
Speaker 1: out at me about the I just had never thought
Speaker 1: of before. But he it makes you think about your
Speaker 1: own psyche a little bit, you know. But he said
Speaker 1: that he caught every one of those people basically by
Speaker 1: stroking their ego, you know, putting them on a pedestal,
Speaker 1: he said. And so that'll tell you something about the
Speaker 1: human mind that wants to be bragg down. That's why
Speaker 1: I think he caught on social media now because they
Speaker 1: can't resisce Pope posting it. Yeah, there Bay like spragg.
Speaker 1: That's why I was wondering if they've had less agents
Speaker 1: since social media because they can just scroll through Instagram
Speaker 1: and find him now. Yeah. And another thing that was
Speaker 1: a little bit stood out to me was I never
Speaker 1: thought of this, but he said that he went into
Speaker 1: that job and done that for all those years and
Speaker 1: put up with all that stress and was very successful
Speaker 1: at it and was able to overcome all of the
Speaker 1: challenges of it, but he couldn't stand to go home
Speaker 1: and take care of his family. Is you know, he's
Speaker 1: he couldn't stand the stress of taking care of his
Speaker 1: kids or fixing the roof on the house, But he
Speaker 1: can go undercover for years and handle that. He was
Speaker 1: living a good life undercover. That's pretty wild. Badly was
Speaker 1: getting some sort of rush out of it too, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean it was it was it was
Speaker 1: like a I mean it may not be probably an
Speaker 1: affect everyone the same way, but undaudly he may may
Speaker 1: may don't say it, and he may don't even realize it,
Speaker 1: but he undatally was getting some sort of adrenaline rush.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I'm not trying to say he's a
Speaker 1: bad guy, and if I'm just saying it was it
Speaker 1: was probably like his feeling. Oh he he talks about it,
Speaker 1: and you know it's it's hard. I talked to him
Speaker 1: for almost four hours and y'all heard thirty minutes of it.
Speaker 1: You know, the podcast was an hour long, but you
Speaker 1: actually heard Artie talking for thirty minutes. So I mean,
Speaker 1: like he go he went into that. Oh he he
Speaker 1: was like absolute adrenaline rush. He said, constantly. He said,
Speaker 1: you walk into a new house with a guy and
Speaker 1: you don't know what's about to happen, and at any
Speaker 1: second your cover could be blown. He said, it's just
Speaker 1: constant fight or flight. And he thrived on that. And
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say it was more of that then it was.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not trying to defend a gun nothing,
Speaker 1: but I mean it was probably more of that enjoying
Speaker 1: that enjoyed that adrenaline rush and it was actually, you know,
Speaker 1: not being neglected. You know. I mean he let on
Speaker 1: like he's intelecting his house and his family and everything.
Speaker 1: You know, but it probably he was neglecting it. But
Speaker 1: he wasn't neglecting it because he was a bad guy.
Speaker 1: He was neglecting that because just rush and his adrenaline
Speaker 1: rush was drawing him back so so hard. You know.
Speaker 1: That's a mama. I can't see anything that would take
Speaker 1: you from your kids though I've made that. I mean
Speaker 1: Sherry first got married. I mean, this is is irresponsible.
Speaker 1: I remember quitting jobs to deer hunt. How stupid is that?
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. Yeah, I mean that's ridiculous.
Speaker 1: I mean, it don't make me a bad person, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, but but but some things, I mean, sometimes
Speaker 1: you let things draw you away from your responsibilities. You know,
Speaker 1: he can't leave un anymore I did hunting New Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I couldn't see leaving my kids for that long. That
Speaker 1: would break my heart. Yeah, there would be no adrenaline.
Speaker 1: That'd be almost like the drugs that say they can't
Speaker 1: get off of drugs for their kid's sake because they
Speaker 1: liked it high too much. So I'm saying he is
Speaker 1: he is like addicted to the highf he can leave
Speaker 1: his kids a long almost sure. I was really glad
Speaker 1: to hear him say that. In the way he said it,
Speaker 1: I believed him. He said he said he has a
Speaker 1: really strong relationship with his kids. Now, I'd like to
Speaker 1: question his kids and see how how old were they,
Speaker 1: And I bet they've got some stories that he don't
Speaker 1: want to hear. As adults, they may understand it, but
Speaker 1: as little when they were a little bit, they didn't.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, And I think I think that's where
Speaker 1: it felt to me, like he's taking responsibility for that now. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's that's good. That takes a lot to say
Speaker 1: that I didn't looklected my kids, and I missed this,
Speaker 1: this and this, and he admits it wasn't worth it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I caught myself all throughout that thinking, man, it'd be
Speaker 1: a pretty pretty cool job. Parts like, oh man, I
Speaker 1: couldn't do that, you know. And it's just I was
Speaker 1: back and forth and I'm like, oh, it sounds like it,
Speaker 1: but you know, right down my alien and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, I couldn't do that, you know. It's just
Speaker 1: so it's kind of one of them deals, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. I'm sure things about it he didn't like,
Speaker 1: you know, throughout all that, but oh no, it's it
Speaker 1: sudered him to a tea and he's actually pretty day
Speaker 1: them good at it. Yeah, yeah. How long was he
Speaker 1: in law enforcement before he retired? You know, he worked
Speaker 1: eighteen years undercover, but I think he was a couple
Speaker 1: of years as a uniform well I know for sure
Speaker 1: a couple of years as a uniformed officer before that.
Speaker 1: So about twenty years plus. Yeah, yeah, Yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: lot of stress. Twenty years would be a lot of stress.
Speaker 1: How long are you going on seventeen seventeen? Yeah, he
Speaker 1: deals with a lot of stress. I deal with a
Speaker 1: lot of stress. Everybody. Now, are you gonna Are you
Speaker 1: gonna run for sheriff next election? We'll just see what
Speaker 1: happened talking about We'll just see what happens between now
Speaker 1: and the end. Do you need us to help you
Speaker 1: with your campaign on burgaries? Oh? Yeah, next year still
Speaker 1: a couple of years away. It'd be uh, it'd be
Speaker 1: a year and a half. Actually, with your credentials, you
Speaker 1: would be the only sheriff at this time in North
Speaker 1: America that I know that we could put the whole
Speaker 1: Burgary's brand behind to get reelected. So the mules that
Speaker 1: you know, Brian, were you you had you had two
Speaker 1: great points there were with those? Do you everything else
Speaker 1: to say? Well? I just had a question in my mind.
Speaker 1: I wonder, you know, I'm not taking nothing away from
Speaker 1: the gap, but how good would you have been without
Speaker 1: those informants? You know, his whole career was shut up
Speaker 1: on the informant thing. You know, I know you gotta
Speaker 1: have him a good team. He had a good team
Speaker 1: to do job. Yeah, you know, you know what those
Speaker 1: guys when you're with him, and this is just so
Speaker 1: that couldn't he talked about his boss and his all
Speaker 1: the people around him. Oh, he gave a lot of
Speaker 1: credit to other people. You know, he really did, you know.
Speaker 1: On the podcast, it's like I wanted to talk about
Speaker 1: how great he was, you know, but is that what
Speaker 1: you're saying? Just like he was around the team of people.
Speaker 1: Well you have that and then you know the s
Speaker 1: and he could right, you know, if it wasn't for
Speaker 1: the if it wasn't for the scumbag that would throw
Speaker 1: his own mama in front of a train to get
Speaker 1: out of trouble. He might not could have got some
Speaker 1: of those convictions, but he also had a good, close
Speaker 1: knit team, like you're saying, on his side too, you know,
Speaker 1: no doubt about that. Yeah, but that just goes back
Speaker 1: to me. I'm not trying to took my own horn,
Speaker 1: but I put a lot of stuck in honesty, you know,
Speaker 1: And whenever a guys stands up and says that it's
Speaker 1: pretty much all all propped up on a lie, then
Speaker 1: I'm I got my guard up, you know. But but
Speaker 1: I would be all four whatever tactics he had to
Speaker 1: use if he was out there catching somebody that was
Speaker 1: mistreating little kids or raping women or something like that.
Speaker 1: You know. So it's it's just, uh, I had a
Speaker 1: little bit of a question they're about that. You felt
Speaker 1: like it was a little too much, kind of like
Speaker 1: Dave a little too much force for something. I don't
Speaker 1: think wen't wrap around anybody poaching like that, even Brian
Speaker 1: both I'm I'm mirror what they're thinking too. You know.
Speaker 1: It's a little it's a little extreme, but it's just
Speaker 1: like what shared just said is exactly is a great point.
Speaker 1: I can't wrap my mind around what bad something could
Speaker 1: be in a poaching world, you know, I mean I
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean yeah, and I imagine too if
Speaker 1: they're I mean, if they're poaching that bad then' like
Speaker 1: they held upstations. I mean they're they're different. And you know,
Speaker 1: I came to him to talk about wildlife stuff. Almost
Speaker 1: everything involved drugs, and I mean they were getting and
Speaker 1: they were getting, they were getting convictions for everything. Like
Speaker 1: he was law enforcement, so he could he could, Uh,
Speaker 1: he didn't have just jurisdiction over a guy killing a
Speaker 1: legal turkey, you know, if that guy is selling drugs
Speaker 1: or if this guy is doing you know what. And
Speaker 1: that just blows my mind. How this guy got inside
Speaker 1: with these guys and talked his way out of drinking
Speaker 1: and drive and you know he couldn't wouldn't supposed to
Speaker 1: drink and drive, you know, and didn't need to drink drive,
Speaker 1: and and they're obviously probably doing drugs around him him
Speaker 1: not not doing any drugs. I mean, how do you
Speaker 1: fit in with these these scumbags? You know, they sit
Speaker 1: on there like they had. He showed with big corns
Speaker 1: and stuff like that in Turkey fans and he got
Speaker 1: from the DN or I so bad want to give
Speaker 1: the biggest spoiler. He okay, I'm not gonna tell the
Speaker 1: whole thing. RT is on the stand that he's in
Speaker 1: court looking at these people all twenty six minus one
Speaker 1: of the guys that he is about to Ah, it's
Speaker 1: so complicated, it will give it all away. Basically, they
Speaker 1: asked him the the defense on drinking and drugs, and
Speaker 1: they straight up ask him, were you ever drunk with
Speaker 1: this man? And are It's so good to hear rttail.
Speaker 1: I can't tell it, but he told them the truth
Speaker 1: and then he said, have you ever done drugs with
Speaker 1: this man? RT tells the truth? Anyway, it was incredible
Speaker 1: the way the way he did it, and I'll tell
Speaker 1: you afterwards. I gotta leave it as a as a
Speaker 1: shocker for everybody else that's in the next episode. But
Speaker 1: he he navigated through all kind of wild stuff, all
Speaker 1: kind of would have been a wild life. It's pretty interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what I said. I mean, it'd be a lot
Speaker 1: of fun. Well, hey, we've been uh, we've been going
Speaker 1: on a while here. Closing thoughts, Hey you okay, there
Speaker 1: is a set of shed antlers right over there. How
Speaker 1: big are those horns? Alvin? There? I don't know is
Speaker 1: it a twenty five point buck? I mean counted on
Speaker 1: a buddy of mine scored them, but I don't. I've
Speaker 1: never even counted on giants, said a non typical antlers
Speaker 1: that were found over here somewhere, And tell me, tell
Speaker 1: me what the guy said that you showed those two
Speaker 1: while you were working. My brother, my brother in law,
Speaker 1: found the first match set at the ranch house. Brought
Speaker 1: him over to us, and I was like, whoa you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, I know, but quite a bit about deer horns,
Speaker 1: and that's like them are not normal, you know. And
Speaker 1: they were like a hundred and seventy inches, you know.
Speaker 1: And the next year he finds a single one and
Speaker 1: then never did find the other one. Ther right behind
Speaker 1: the ranch house, like coming up behind the ranch house.
Speaker 1: He's finding when he's feeding. He's not looking for sheds,
Speaker 1: you know. It just and anyways, the next year he
Speaker 1: finds this final set and uh, he brings him over
Speaker 1: to the house and we got all of the minute,
Speaker 1: get mall to us. He's not a deer hunter nothing,
Speaker 1: he won't hunter. Anyways, I had him and they're they're
Speaker 1: magnificent set of horns, you know, carrying them around you know,
Speaker 1: everyoneren't showing different people, you know, and and uh the
Speaker 1: guy worked with and uh a lot of comments about him,
Speaker 1: you know, different comments. Boy A like to kill that
Speaker 1: one and all this. You know, where are you working.
Speaker 1: You're working on pipeline. We're doing the pipeline job, but
Speaker 1: with tongue. And this guy was from this guy I'm
Speaker 1: actually Arkansas. He's an Arkansas anyway, Arkinson anyway. He was
Speaker 1: a dozer operator. And I knew he was crazy fanatic
Speaker 1: deer hunter, you know, and and I, hey, check he's out,
Speaker 1: you know. When he comes over and he gets his
Speaker 1: hands on him, you know, and he just kind of
Speaker 1: don't say nothing for a few minutes, you know, and
Speaker 1: he's looking at him and he's turning them this way
Speaker 1: and turning them that way, and and I'm kind of
Speaker 1: waiting for him to say something, you know, because it's
Speaker 1: kind of moment sound moment pause here, you know, and
Speaker 1: he he just looks me straight in the eye and
Speaker 1: he says, I'd go to jail to kill his deer
Speaker 1: right here, or he said I would. He's he's exact
Speaker 1: what was, I would go to jail trying to kill
Speaker 1: his deer. And I fell over I busted out laughing,
Speaker 1: and he didn't crack a smile. He was not joking
Speaker 1: and go to jail over a deer, man, I can't wait.
Speaker 1: I can't wait for Mark Kenyon one day to hand
Speaker 1: me instead of horns. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do just what Alvin's buddy. I'm gonna look
Speaker 1: at jail trying to have a hard time, not cracking small.
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody it was a pretty good hideout
Speaker 1: deal because the guy that lives right behind the ranch
Speaker 1: house never would he denied it. I confronted him. I
Speaker 1: was like, how you got pictures that in here? No,
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? I want Boston Goods. And
Speaker 1: then after the deer didn't show up for a couple
Speaker 1: of years and the horns didn't show up for a
Speaker 1: couple of years, and to our knowledge, he finally admitted
Speaker 1: to it. And I actually seen daylight pictures of the deer.
Speaker 1: He showed me daylight pictures of deer, and he actually,
Speaker 1: you know, admitted to it. Obviously show me, but uh,
Speaker 1: no one else. I never talk talk to anyone else
Speaker 1: in that area that ever had pictures of that deer,
Speaker 1: but he did, he had and he did for several years.
Speaker 1: He didn't tell nobody. Yeah, I couldn't do that. Brian
Speaker 1: and Ryan on both No him, I tell you who
Speaker 1: It wasn't good off here. But yeah, I don't think
Speaker 1: any because I think if somebody killed him, we had
Speaker 1: heard about it. I mean yeah, because the process and
Speaker 1: plans right down the road to and he knew about him.
Speaker 1: He's seen all the ships and boys. I'd go to
Speaker 1: jail trying to kill it this week man in Dirty
Speaker 1: Dave have been trying to kill We'd kill one a
Speaker 1: lot smaller one from the camera. Well, hey, it's been
Speaker 1: fun having all you guys on Jumpy. You're you're a
Speaker 1: big Burgheries man the Most Bargeries podcast several times over. Yeah,
Speaker 1: probably your biggest fan. He needs autographs. Hat my hat,
Speaker 1: he got me hat you on my hat right on.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. I do. I appreciate it. Um, she's
Speaker 1: got my hat on. I was sing it got the
Speaker 1: Burgheries hat. Crazing thoughts. Anybody is your last chance? The
Speaker 1: same thing about RTI Stewart. If I don't sure, I
Speaker 1: don't listen as as much as to the stuff that
Speaker 1: when I flipped through your podcast real or if it
Speaker 1: looks interesting, I'll listen. I'm not a faithful listener, but
Speaker 1: I'm really looking forward to this next one. I really him.
Speaker 1: I kind of want to hear the rest of this stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, big dirty Dave. I'm excited to hear more.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. And I'm crossing my fingers. Do you have
Speaker 1: we get a buck even close to that size walking
Speaker 1: from I'd kill a buck with just the amount of
Speaker 1: inches off of one side of absolutely no news, Yankee.
Speaker 1: You're wearing crocs. Oh, Dave's got crocs. Way to go, Dave,
Speaker 1: crocks and socks the first on the boat. Well, thank
Speaker 1: you guys so much. Been a pleasure. And uh yeah,
Speaker 1: this is a this is the first podcast we've done
Speaker 1: in southeast Oklahoma. So come around. The campfire's good. That's good.