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Speaker 1: Conversations on life, style, beauty, and relationships. It's The Velvet's

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Speaker 1: Edge Podcast with Kelly Henderson. Okay, I'm here with Matt

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Speaker 1: Zeeman and you just asked me a really good question

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Speaker 1: actually which I'll start the podcast. But we're here to

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Speaker 1: talk about psychedelics. You are a master, you have a

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Speaker 1: masters of science and psychology and neuroscience. But I was

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Speaker 1: laughing at your Instagram bio because it says accidental psychonauts

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Speaker 1: like an astronaut, but like psychedelics. So I found you

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Speaker 1: via another podcast last week and I emailed you and

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Speaker 1: I said, hey, I would love to talk about psychedelics

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Speaker 1: with you asap if possible, And you just asked me

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Speaker 1: the question why so fast? Um? But we have monthly

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Speaker 1: themes every month on this podcast, and our theme this

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Speaker 1: month is expansion, and so there was nothing that I

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Speaker 1: could think of like it was the first thought in

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Speaker 1: my head was like, we have to talk about psychedelics.

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Speaker 1: This is first of all a topical I feel like

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Speaker 1: in our culture right now. And second of all, I

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Speaker 1: hadn't experienced myself, um about a year and a half

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Speaker 1: ago now, and it's completely changed my life, my mind,

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Speaker 1: my way of thinking, my capacity for love, like all

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Speaker 1: of those different things that we can kind of dive into. So, UM,

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Speaker 1: I wanted someone with more expertise than me from just

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Speaker 1: having one experience to come on. And you've also written

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Speaker 1: a book that I can't wait to read now, um,

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Speaker 1: and so I just want to just talk about this.

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Speaker 1: So let me ask you now the question what got

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Speaker 1: you first started in your journey in psychedelics? So I

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Speaker 1: think you when you said accidental psychodod it truly was

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Speaker 1: by accident. I had some friends who booked a guide

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Speaker 1: and for a guided psilocybin journey, and they said, hey,

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Speaker 1: do you want to do this. I was like, I don't,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't, I don't think so, and

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Speaker 1: they kind of talked me into it, and UM, it

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Speaker 1: just completely changed the way I looked at the world. UM.

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Speaker 1: I had this incredible healing journey. UM. In that first experience,

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Speaker 1: my mom died when she was forty nine, and in

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Speaker 1: the first experience, I reconnected with her. UM. I had

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Speaker 1: these insights into kind of how I was living my life. UM.

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Speaker 1: This felt this enormous sense of love and connection. And UM,

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, I need to learn

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Speaker 1: more about this. This is what I've been looking for

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Speaker 1: and not even knowing I was looking for it, so

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Speaker 1: kind of immediately just changed course on a bunch of

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Speaker 1: aspects in my life, went back to school, just hyper

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Speaker 1: hyper focused on learning about psychedelics and consciousness, human consciousness. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's an interesting segway because I'm curious if you had

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Speaker 1: a lot of experience before or interest in you know,

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Speaker 1: like the brain or why people do what they do.

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Speaker 1: Like that stuff is fascinating to me, and so this

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Speaker 1: is even felt like an extension of learning more about

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Speaker 1: that and understanding myself on such a deeper level. But

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Speaker 1: were you kind of wired that way before? Had you

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Speaker 1: done a lot of your own in a work, or

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Speaker 1: was this something completely out of the blue for you? Right? So,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm definitely a lifelong learner. I don't I'm

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Speaker 1: not afraid to just kind of tackle a topic deeply.

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Speaker 1: And Um, but no, on the like, I didn't have

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Speaker 1: a spiritual practice. I didn't believe in God, Um I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I didn't believe in therapy for myself. Um, if you

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Speaker 1: would have asked me how I was, I was fine.

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Speaker 1: I'm fine. I'm totally good. I'm running these businesses and

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Speaker 1: it's all good. It wasn't I didn't know what I

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Speaker 1: didn't know. Um, And yeah, this has been completely yeah,

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Speaker 1: but like not only completely knowing there's a higher power

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Speaker 1: and completely believing in in in life after death. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: just change changed so many things. So you were on

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Speaker 1: this path well before psychedelics. Well, I went on the

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Speaker 1: path of therapy and twelve step and all of those things.

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Speaker 1: And I still do all of those things. To me,

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Speaker 1: they've worked very well together actually, Um, but I had

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Speaker 1: reached a place, I think in my journey with that

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Speaker 1: kind of healing where I really wasn't connecting mind and body.

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Speaker 1: Like I had a lot of information. I felt like

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Speaker 1: a lot of information at a lot of knowledge, but

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure that I was fully able to integrate it.

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Speaker 1: And why are you smiling? I know, just a whole

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Speaker 1: twelve step connection. I've been kind of everywhere I've been

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Speaker 1: looking these days that I have been thinking about twelve steps.

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Speaker 1: And I just finished Carl Jung's uh the letters of

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Speaker 1: documents between Bill w and Carl Young and kind of

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Speaker 1: the creation of the twelve step program. And I just

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Speaker 1: didn't know that it really was a spiritual path hidden

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Speaker 1: around what originally was alcoholics and they became all these

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Speaker 1: other things. Yes, and that's what's so interesting about twelve seven.

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Speaker 1: That's a whole other conversation. But a lot of people

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Speaker 1: get that wrong, Like it is a spiritual program and

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Speaker 1: that's what it's all based on. So I have had

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Speaker 1: an experience where I had a spiritual awakening from working

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Speaker 1: the steps as well, and so this was like an

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Speaker 1: even deeper extension and piece of that that I was

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Speaker 1: able to kind of take what I had learned and

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Speaker 1: that experience, which had been about a decade before, and

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Speaker 1: then it kind of revisited on a deeper level when

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Speaker 1: I went into this experience. And mine was also psilocybin,

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Speaker 1: which I think is a place a lot of people start.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's true, but that's been my

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Speaker 1: experience and conversation. Maybe it seems a little less intense.

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Speaker 1: It was pretty incensed, but um but yeah, but it

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Speaker 1: was the most beautiful experience of revisiting a deeper relationship

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Speaker 1: with a higher power, Like you're you're saying um and

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Speaker 1: then kind of also feeling trying to think of how

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Speaker 1: to verbalize this. All I know is the thing I

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Speaker 1: kept saying to people when I was done, was I

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Speaker 1: feel like my heart could explode with love. Like I

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Speaker 1: just literally felt that, and it didn't really realize how

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Speaker 1: many walls or blocks I had up before that, because

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Speaker 1: I think as adults we go through experiences where that

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Speaker 1: just naturally happens, as like we want to protect ourselves

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Speaker 1: and we kind of lose that childlike love and purpose

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Speaker 1: in this world and connection and things like that. So

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Speaker 1: that was mine. Tell ourselves a bunch of stories. What

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Speaker 1: do you mean as we get older, it starts with

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Speaker 1: I think giving up agency. So first it's okay, our

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Speaker 1: parents are in charge, the teachers in charge, the government's

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Speaker 1: in charge, and then it's and then we tell ourselves stories.

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Speaker 1: This is how, this is who I am. I am,

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Speaker 1: I am Kelly, I am a fashion person, I am

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Speaker 1: a I am a whatever daughter, this and that or

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Speaker 1: the other thing. And the stories get deeper and deeper,

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Speaker 1: and the and the thinking around those stories gets more ingrained.

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Speaker 1: And I think with psychedelics, for whatever period of time

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Speaker 1: that you're experiencing that medicine, it it reminds you that

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Speaker 1: you didn't always in this way. There was a time

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Speaker 1: when the world was more colorful. There was a time

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Speaker 1: when you felt a deep love, you knew you were loved,

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Speaker 1: you didn't have to do anything to be enough. And

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Speaker 1: and then it's like, oh, I forgot, I forgot I

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Speaker 1: could do that. I forgot I could feel this way.

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Speaker 1: I forgot my brain could think this way. And that's

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Speaker 1: that catalyst that then people can take into the integration process.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean, like, explain that more? Al Right, So,

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Speaker 1: this is my opinion, But psychedelics it's not a it's

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Speaker 1: not just a biochemical reaction that cures anything. It is

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Speaker 1: a biochemical spiritual catalyst that then opens our minds and

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Speaker 1: our hearts up for change. And then it's what do

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Speaker 1: we do after that experience to process that? So you

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Speaker 1: said I felt like my heart was going to explode,

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Speaker 1: could feel all this love. I would imagine as you

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Speaker 1: move farther and farther away from that experience, pieces of

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Speaker 1: that don't feel the same. How can so I think

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Speaker 1: that the goal or the challenges? How do you on

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Speaker 1: these other using these other techniques, whether it's twelve steps

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Speaker 1: or mindfulness or whatever else you do, how do you

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Speaker 1: keep that feeling alive? Right? You set yourself kind of

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Speaker 1: a north star. Oh, I didn't know this was possible,

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Speaker 1: now you do. So now what that's a really great

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Speaker 1: way to say it, because well one, and we can

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Speaker 1: kind of talk a little bit more about this than

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Speaker 1: a bit. But I think when you do the experience,

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Speaker 1: obviously that day and the following days, you know, you're

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Speaker 1: really feeling it and you're really in the moment of that.

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Speaker 1: And like you said, as you go into life, like

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Speaker 1: life starts happening again, yes, and and humans happen and

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Speaker 1: humans are messy, and there's complicated relationships and all these things,

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Speaker 1: and um, you can kind of move out of that.

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Speaker 1: But I will say something I've experienced personally, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know if this is true for everyone, but like

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Speaker 1: in the moments where I can get I still get triggered,

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Speaker 1: or I still get you know, reactive or worked up

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Speaker 1: and all these things, but it is so much quicker

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Speaker 1: for me to come back to that place, like it's

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Speaker 1: like a rewiring happened in some capacity where I genuinely

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Speaker 1: go but wait, I know, like it's like this bigger

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Speaker 1: knowing of something bigger or something greater or deeper that

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Speaker 1: I can go back to in those moments and remember

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Speaker 1: that the thing happening right in front of me, isn't

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Speaker 1: really like I mean always I'm like, this isn't even real,

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Speaker 1: Like this is just sort of like this thing to

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Speaker 1: hear to teach me something, you know, but it brings

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Speaker 1: me back to that place of it, and it can

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Speaker 1: get into an acceptance place so much faster. Now is

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Speaker 1: that is that? Did I make that up? Because you're

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Speaker 1: actually saying two very distinct things. The first thing you're

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Speaker 1: saying is there you have a new awareness. So when

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Speaker 1: you get I think the phrase use was triggered when

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Speaker 1: something happens that creates a feeling, feelings or feedback. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're saying, oh, I'm aware, I'm feeling this, I am triggered,

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Speaker 1: I am whatever the emotion is. And then you're saying,

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Speaker 1: but I don't have to suffering as option, I don't

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Speaker 1: have to feel this way. I remember that I don't

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Speaker 1: have to feel this way, and I choose to air

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Speaker 1: on the side of love or or to process it.

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Speaker 1: This is a story. This really doesn't matter. This is

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Speaker 1: or this is my creation, and I can interpret it

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Speaker 1: this way or I can interpret it that way. But

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Speaker 1: I have the choice. I have the power because I

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Speaker 1: remember that now. So it's an awareness and then the

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Speaker 1: response to different things. That's interesting. And I think it

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Speaker 1: also the bigger picture being when you said you didn't

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Speaker 1: have a relationship with higher power and then you did.

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Speaker 1: There is something that seems to come out of this

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Speaker 1: a little bit where there's a bigger understanding of the

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Speaker 1: universe and whatever you want to call it, higher power, God,

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Speaker 1: the fucking tree. I don't know, like whatever it is

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Speaker 1: for you, but that you're not doing this, You're not

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Speaker 1: like out there alone, like there is always a greater

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Speaker 1: purpose and you actually are probably participating in that, and

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Speaker 1: and it's all loving, it's all for your greatest good

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Speaker 1: and your highest good, and it's not cruel and it's

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Speaker 1: not angry, and it's not here to hurt you or

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Speaker 1: take away from you or punish you or things like that.

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Speaker 1: And once I had that switch, that's really helped me too.

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Speaker 1: I love that. I love this idea that we are nature. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like we're not separate from the earth, we're not separate

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Speaker 1: from our physical environments, were not separate from the trees.

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Speaker 1: We're just another piece of nature. And I think psilocybin,

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Speaker 1: particularly mushrooms particularly, you can understand that connection. You can

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Speaker 1: feel it almost through the ground too, to the tooth

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Speaker 1: of trees, to the flowers. You can look sometimes at

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Speaker 1: the sky and feel the breathing of the air. Um. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure people listening are like, what in the hell

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Speaker 1: are they talking about? And I always I described I've

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Speaker 1: talked of a little bit about my journey before, and there,

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Speaker 1: you know, there was a moment where I came out

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Speaker 1: of it and the shaman that was with me was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna leave you now, Like, because you're good and

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Speaker 1: you can go, I recommend going to sit outside. So

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Speaker 1: I went and set under this tree and it was

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Speaker 1: like the leaves were talking to me. And it sounds

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Speaker 1: insane and I can say that, but it was the

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Speaker 1: most beautiful moment. I just cried and cried and cried.

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Speaker 1: Um But I always like to describe it to people

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Speaker 1: that might be listening and they're like, this sounds crazy,

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Speaker 1: as it's that moment you know when you walk up

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Speaker 1: to the ocean and you just remember how small you are.

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Speaker 1: It's just that times ten or whatever. It's like that feeling.

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Speaker 1: Or you're in the mountains and you look down and

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Speaker 1: you look out and it's just like, wow, I am

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Speaker 1: this tiny, little, small piece of this whole big thing.

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Speaker 1: And I'm here for a purpose, but it's one purpose

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Speaker 1: of all these purposes, and like we're all here working together.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that's my take, but I love that

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Speaker 1: my purpose. It doesn't really matter all that much. Matters

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Speaker 1: is that I feel loved. And what matters is that

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Speaker 1: I can give love freely. What I do for any

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Speaker 1: particular way to generate resources, it doesn't really matter how

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Speaker 1: many resources I have. It really doesn't matter. It's this.

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Speaker 1: It's this, it's this internal feeling, which, for I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of us was kind of type A personalities.

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Speaker 1: Were the doers. We get stuff done. We are we

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Speaker 1: are rewarded for activity, and in this other world, you're

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Speaker 1: rewarded for feeling. M hmm. And that's hard. It's hard,

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Speaker 1: I know for you, Gali, it's hard for me to

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Speaker 1: slow down. It's or what especially this this part has

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Speaker 1: slowed me way down. And then it's just it's just

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Speaker 1: just on how I grew up. I had to I

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Speaker 1: had to create, create, create, create, all the time, creating something.

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Speaker 1: H We're feeling like if if I don't do something

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Speaker 1: for you, you're not gonna love me. You're not gonna

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Speaker 1: like me, you're gonna kick me out right, um, And

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Speaker 1: I don't. Yeah, that all goes away with these are

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Speaker 1: that can go away. These medicines can show you that

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Speaker 1: that is a a not a healthy train of thought. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting because our society has built and so much

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Speaker 1: of that energy, and so it's a hard thing to

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Speaker 1: let go of, I feel, especially when you attach your

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Speaker 1: security to that, the hustle and the working for your

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Speaker 1: worth kind of mentality. I know I did for many

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Speaker 1: years as well. Um. I feel very grateful at this

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Speaker 1: point in my life that I came to this world

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Speaker 1: as one of the biggest feelers and so I have

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Speaker 1: never been able to just escape feelings, which I now

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Speaker 1: look at as an extreme gift. But for many years

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Speaker 1: it was really hard because I'm not really capable of

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Speaker 1: stuffing in the same way I can see other people

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Speaker 1: do it. Um, But it's a gift now because I'm

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Speaker 1: able to dive deeper and I'm accepting that in myself

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Speaker 1: and I see that that actually is for me a

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Speaker 1: much truer way way to live, and it's the way

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Speaker 1: that I feel more at peace. That's definitely a superpower

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Speaker 1: a going it's a that's impressive. UM, I want to

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit because you have such a background

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Speaker 1: in you know, neuroscience and psychology, can you tell us

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Speaker 1: a little bit to anyone listening that might be like

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Speaker 1: curious about psychedelics, but like, is there actual brain science

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Speaker 1: to why this works? Because I know it's being talked

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Speaker 1: about in treating PTSD or treating anxiety and depression and

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Speaker 1: people are like, Okay, well we have other drugs for that,

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Speaker 1: like that a doctor prescribes, and I find a lot

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Speaker 1: of fault in those kind of things. But that's a

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Speaker 1: whole another conversation. UM, stick that for a moment. Definitely

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Speaker 1: stick on that. So let's talk about what do prescribed today,

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Speaker 1: and then we can talk about the brain science of psychedelics.

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Speaker 1: But today the most widely prescribed UM medicine is our antidepressants.

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Speaker 1: So what does the brain science tell us about antidepressants.

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Speaker 1: They tell us that in roughly the population they don't work,

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Speaker 1: so that's a pretty big number. They tell us that

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Speaker 1: in more than fift they're The side effect profile is

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Speaker 1: is significant. Um, pick you can pick a gastro intestinal issues.

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Speaker 1: I mean, how many of us have friends that we

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Speaker 1: know have been on antipressants have stomach issues, sexual dysfunction.

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Speaker 1: Seventy of people who are on antidepressants have some form

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Speaker 1: of S seventy two point like six. Yet it's it's

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Speaker 1: a high and it's not discussed enough. It's a big

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Speaker 1: big number, um, weight gain, lethargy, um, suicidal ideation. So

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Speaker 1: so again, if they work for you, great, But if

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Speaker 1: they don't work for you, that's not your fault. And

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are like, oh that

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Speaker 1: I failed the medicine. No, the medicine failed you. And

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Speaker 1: there just hasn't been really another option that doesn't involve

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Speaker 1: six to fourteen weeks to find out if another antidepressant

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Speaker 1: is gonna work, and then what are those side effects

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Speaker 1: going to be and how are you going to juggle

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Speaker 1: your life around that? It's tough. So what are what

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Speaker 1: are the what's happening with psychedelics in terms of the

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Speaker 1: brain science, So let's talk about what's legal. Ketamine is

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Speaker 1: legal today all fifty states. People can choose to do ketamine.

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Speaker 1: And we know that ketamine works in the glutamate system

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Speaker 1: versus serotonin, which is what most antidepressants work on. We

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Speaker 1: know it increases what's called be D and F where

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Speaker 1: a brain derived under a tropic factor. We know that

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Speaker 1: it um it's stifles It's called the default mode network.

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Speaker 1: So that's like that inner narrator that's like, oh this

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Speaker 1: is good, this is bad. You're not good enough, you're

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Speaker 1: not working hard enough. That that constant voice, it quiets

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Speaker 1: that down. So I don't did you experience that on

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Speaker 1: psilocybin where is like that was just quiet? You know

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Speaker 1: it was weird because it was quiet in my head.

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Speaker 1: As far as I wasn't attaching to those narratives, I

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Speaker 1: was able to be like, oh, hey, anxiety, I see you.

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Speaker 1: They're like kind of talk to it versus feel it

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Speaker 1: and let it overwhelm me. If that makes that makes

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Speaker 1: total sense. And that's so psilocybin similar in that respect,

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Speaker 1: similar to kenemine is quieting down the default mode network.

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Speaker 1: We then know that people on ketemine have this disassociative effect.

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Speaker 1: So ketemine at a higher dose is an anesthesia. At

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Speaker 1: a lower dose, it's a dissociative. So it's kind of

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Speaker 1: like you're separating from your body. You're allowing these subconscious

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Speaker 1: thoughts to kind of come into the mind. UM that

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Speaker 1: can can help you UM process other things without the shame,

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Speaker 1: blame and guilt that might be associated with them. And

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Speaker 1: then just like LSD and psilocybin other psychedelics, there's a

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Speaker 1: spiritual component that many patients are. People who experience academine

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Speaker 1: talk about that it connected them to something more powerful.

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Speaker 1: So Bill w going back to your twelve step why

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Speaker 1: did he want to introduce LSD into the twelve step program.

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Speaker 1: It was a forced spiritual experience for people who couldn't

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Speaker 1: connect to that higher power. So ketamine can do that.

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Speaker 1: So we know all those things happen. Do we know

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Speaker 1: exactly why kenemine works for depression anxiety? No, but these

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Speaker 1: are these are the things that happened in the brain

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Speaker 1: the brain science that then lead to the results. We

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Speaker 1: do know that when people who have anxiety and depression

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Speaker 1: take ketamine UM, it is significantly reduces those the symptoms

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Speaker 1: around depression anxiety UM for those people. So we know

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Speaker 1: that UM on other psychedelics. There's I mean, for perspective, Kelly,

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Speaker 1: there's over three hundred academic institutions either studying psychedelics or

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Speaker 1: the Psychedelic Center right now. There's tons of research and

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Speaker 1: brain images and all sorts of things for depression, anxiety, PTSD,

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Speaker 1: O c D, eating disorders, substance use challenges. It just

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Speaker 1: goes on and on. So the there's a ton of

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Speaker 1: research out there for people who are curious. And I

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Speaker 1: think that the headline is what we've been taught for

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Speaker 1: the last fifty years was not based on science. This

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Speaker 1: whole just say no was a big bag of bullshit

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Speaker 1: that we were handed and uh, and that's what the

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Speaker 1: entire psychedelic community is combating it with this research now

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Speaker 1: and saying that wasn't true then, and here's the science.

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Speaker 1: Have you watched How to Change Your Mind? Of course? Okay?

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Speaker 1: I think they do booking series on Netflix, Yes, and

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Speaker 1: they do such a good job of kind of talking

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Speaker 1: about the regulations around all of this stuff. And it

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Speaker 1: was shocking to me, like it was. And it's actually

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Speaker 1: really sad because then it is that moment where you

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Speaker 1: realize how much misinformation we're actually just being fed all

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Speaker 1: the time. And and I don't really understand, I don't

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Speaker 1: think other than money, and so maybe you can talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about this, but um, I find it

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Speaker 1: so interesting. I actually after my still asibin trip, I

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Speaker 1: just took time off alcohol. It really wasn't like I

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Speaker 1: did not like it. I didn't want it. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to break from it. I was going through some other

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Speaker 1: stuff and I was like, I just want to clear

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Speaker 1: head processing. But I just didn't have a taste for

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Speaker 1: it either. It was really interesting and I don't know

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Speaker 1: if those two were connected, for it was just the

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Speaker 1: time in my life. But um, I find it so

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Speaker 1: bizarre now that I've had that like step back from it,

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Speaker 1: that alcohol is legal. I'm literally like, what, how is

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Speaker 1: this the thing that we do on it like some

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Speaker 1: people on a daily basis, and it's so not even

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Speaker 1: talked about as weird. It is so weird to me

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Speaker 1: now because I've learned so much about the effects on

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Speaker 1: your body and your brain and I mean, just like

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Speaker 1: you just learned learning about the deaths per year, and

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Speaker 1: it's just crazy to me. Yet psilocybin is illegal, Like

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Speaker 1: I don't understand. So can you talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about that. I mean, there's there's a fantastic study that

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Speaker 1: a professor nut funny name for psychiatrist or research professor

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Speaker 1: in space um did on harmed to self and harm

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Speaker 1: to others of different drugs. And if you look at

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Speaker 1: the results on the far left hand side, the greatest

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Speaker 1: harm to self and others is alcohol, and I think

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Speaker 1: it was like a seventy two on the scale. It's

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Speaker 1: pretty high. On the far right hand side, thirty drugs

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Speaker 1: later is psilocybin mushrooms and it's like a six. And

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Speaker 1: it really helped wake up the regulatory committee of we

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Speaker 1: are not scheduling drugs appropriately, we're not scheduling them based

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Speaker 1: on logic, and then we're not teaching our kids like

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Speaker 1: I would much rather my kid do mushrooms versus drinking

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Speaker 1: themselves to oblivion at a fraternity party. It's so much safer. Um.

403
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Speaker 1: But we don't have those discussions in this society and

404
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Speaker 1: this culture. Um. We go down Broadway and it's bar

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Speaker 1: after bar after bar, tons and tons of alcohol, um,

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Speaker 1: at noon on a Tuesday. Um. But we yeah, we

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Speaker 1: just don't have so so then what happens We get

408
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Speaker 1: into who's interested in what gets scheduled. We get into

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Speaker 1: the whether it's the big farmer lobby. Because it's one

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Speaker 1: challenge with anti with the psychedelics versus antidepressants is it's

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Speaker 1: not an everyday drug. So how do you make any

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Speaker 1: real money off of this thing that people might do

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Speaker 1: once in their life, once a year, once a quarter,

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Speaker 1: but there is no once a day in in the

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Speaker 1: psychedelic world. So where where do you make money on this?

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Speaker 1: Isn't that so sad? I mean, I think it's like

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Speaker 1: the thing that could actually help people make progress in

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Speaker 1: their lives or make changes is being hats because you

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Speaker 1: can't make money off of it. That that like makes

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Speaker 1: me sick of my stomach. It's not ideal. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I there are groups that are are working to change this.

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Speaker 1: I think what Rick Doblin and the Multi Disciplinary Association

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Speaker 1: of Psychedelic Studies have done with this public benefit corporation model.

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Speaker 1: And let's get m d m A to be re

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Speaker 1: legalized and let's at least get it allowed to be

426
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 1: used with people with post traumatic stress disorder treatment resistant PTSD.

427
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: So think about veterans, first responders, victims of sexual assault.

428
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 1: There's what they're finding as these people who nothing has

429
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 1: worked after a combination of therapy, talk therapy and m

430
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,880
Speaker 1: d m A three sessions of empty m A six

431
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: no longer qualifies having PTSD. It's how do you argue

432
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: with a number of success that's that high? And I

433
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: think you don't I think that's why the FDA has

434
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 1: given them breakthrough therapy designation. I think that's why they've

435
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 1: done great on their Phase three trials and hopefully it

436
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: becomes lead across our country and within two years. Yeah,

437
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 1: So what would that look like if let's say they

438
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: do legal as it, What would that look like to

439
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: be used with therapy, Because I think there's a difference

440
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,400
Speaker 1: between I mean, people do what you want, like, I'm

441
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 1: not telling you do or don't do drugs, but there

442
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 1: is a difference between recreationally using any of these things

443
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: that we're calling medicine and then or let's let's calm

444
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 1: drugs in that capacity and then using them as medicine.

445
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 1: Like can you speak a little bit to those two

446
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: differences and why you might have a different outcome. I

447
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: think about this a lot, and here's here's where I struggle, Kelly.

448
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 1: So maybe you can help. Maybe you know me. There

449
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 1: are people who approached these drugs saying I have a diagnosis.

450
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: I have depression of anxiety of PTSD and I'm looking

451
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: for medical help. Okay, I get that. And that's and

452
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: we have a whole group of people going down the

453
00:25:55,440 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: medicalization path where they will be selling a service to

454
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: help us sure things. So let's call that path number one.

455
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 1: There's another group of people who say, I don't have

456
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: a diagnosis. I'm fine, but I'm interested in being better.

457
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 1: M okay, So is that recreational or is that medical?

458
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it's recreational. It's intentional, but

459
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: it's technically recreational. So let's put that in bucket number two,

460
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: the human optimization bucket. I don't think I need therapy.

461
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: I don't think I need anything. I just want to

462
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,959
Speaker 1: become better. And I don't even know what better means.

463
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: I don't even know, but I'm being drawn to this

464
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: because I think there's something missing in my life. I'm

465
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: not feeling joy. But that's not medical, that's intentional. And

466
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: then the third bucket is I've heard that um with psychedelics,

467
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: maybe I can have a spirit a practice. And I'm

468
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: longing for I'm longing for connection. I'm longing for connecting

469
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 1: to a higher power. And I'm I've heard I might

470
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 1: be able to have a commune communist God. Yeah, I'm

471
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: super interested in that. So that's so is that medical? No?

472
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: Is it optimization intentional? No, it's really religious. So it's

473
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: a third bucket? Are any of these buckets not okay?

474
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,199
Speaker 1: There's now that doesn't mean they're not legal. Number two

475
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: and bucket number three right now are illegal, but for

476
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: most part, bucket number one is illegal. But should any

477
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 1: of these be illegal? Should you be able to say,

478
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 1: oh no, you shouldn't be allowed to practice your religion

479
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: or explore your spirituality through using these compounds that have

480
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: been used for thousands of years. But you can't use them, Kelly,

481
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: where you, Kelly can't. You have to have something wrong

482
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 1: with you that needs to be where you're allowed to

483
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 1: go use these medicines. See. I would argue that both

484
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: of two and three could be an argument for mental

485
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 1: health though, because if we're not growing, we're dying, right

486
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: if you want to use that that statement. And then also,

487
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: like I think if in any other capacity in our

488
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 1: lives we work, like for physical health, we work out

489
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: what do we do for Like, if you want to

490
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: get better at your job, you go study more, you

491
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: go take a class of something, you practice, you do something,

492
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 1: And mental health for whatever reason, seems to be the

493
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 1: thing that's gotten lost in that whole growth process. So

494
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: to me, what you said would fall under that category

495
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: of like I'm expanding, We're going to use that word

496
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: my mental health, my brain capacity, my capacity for love,

497
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: like my healing process, and we need those as humans. Um.

498
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: But yeah, I don't know how you regulate that or like,

499
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: and there in lies the challenge. So yes, we could

500
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: put in mental health, we could put in spiritual health.

501
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: But either those buckets aren't necessarily medical. The way our

502
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: society deals with medical our society is a broken fix

503
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 1: it society. And this is this is proactive, this is

504
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: let's let's let's allow us to expand, let's allow us

505
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: to feel, that's allow us to remember and then move forward. Um.

506
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: So my hope is that there's place for all of this.

507
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: My hope is that there is a medical model where

508
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: if you want you are more comfortable having a doctor

509
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: prescribe it, and you want to know exactly that this

510
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: strain of psilocybin is, this is going to have this potency,

511
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: and you want all the medical accoutrements around it. Great,

512
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: you should have, you should be able to do that

513
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: all day, every day. But if you want to go

514
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: to a a psychedelic ceremony and sit with a shaman

515
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: and experience what you exp sperience. I think you should

516
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: be able to do that as well. Umm, can you

517
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: want to find a coach who's going to work with

518
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: you and some psychedelics. I think that should be okay

519
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: as well. It's reminding me of when weed first was legalized,

520
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: because remember you had to have a medical car to

521
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: go buy it. Yeah, and now it's like in certain

522
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 1: places you can just go by it. And so they're

523
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: leaving it up to our discretion. I guess whether or

524
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: not we need that or not need that, I guess.

525
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: I always was associating, um, like with mushrooms, for instance,

526
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: doing mushrooms at a party, versus like the way I

527
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: did it, which was a drink, this drink after a

528
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: spiritual session basically with a shaman. Then we put on

529
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: this playlist that's been made by John's Hopkins too, you know,

530
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: trigger my brain into this whole thing. It was a

531
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: whole thing and it was very um I don't know

532
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: if sacred is the right word, but there was like

533
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: a sacred experience to it that made it so spiritual

534
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: for me and healing and mentally stimulating. And it wasn't

535
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: like having a trip or a bad trip at a

536
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: party when you're like panic attacking because there's all these

537
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,479
Speaker 1: a lot of music. You can't control it. You know,

538
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: it's like a complete opposite experience of that, or it

539
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: was for me. Um. And so that's where I get

540
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: stuck because I'm like, well, just legal as it for

541
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: the good stuff. But I guess you can. How do

542
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: you regulate that? It's hard? It's hard, and it's hard.

543
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: We have a very paternal culture where it's like I

544
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: know what's best for you, Kelly, you know, yeah, and this,

545
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,959
Speaker 1: and I think these these drugs, these medicines make us

546
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: aware that, yeah, these are problems, are problems in the

547
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: way that it's structured. However, more and more people are

548
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: doing them. There is a legal way with ketamine. There's

549
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: more and more underground premonies like it sounds like the

550
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: one you participated in. There's international travel and more and

551
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: more those are popping up. And I think what you

552
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 1: just talked about that container people are understanding. Oh okay,

553
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: So what do I want. Well, I want to have

554
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: a certain amount of people, and I want to have

555
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: someone who has a certain level of experience, and I

556
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: want to have guided music, and I want to know

557
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: there's a plan if I have an uncomfortable experience and okay,

558
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: and you're there's more of that open discussion, UM, So

559
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: I think that's healthy. There's more discussion of it's okay

560
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: to not be okay, and that's healthy. So it's an

561
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: exciting time for all of this and these are I

562
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: think these are just good discussions. Do you believe in

563
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: bad trips? So that's a that's a tricky question. I

564
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: believe there are people who are taking medications that have

565
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: contraindications with some psychedelics, and if they are not screened,

566
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: it can be Yeah, there can be an awful experience

567
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: for them. I think there are people who have a

568
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: mental unstability that they're not firmly planted into this consensus reality,

569
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: and then going into a a a planned psychotic experience

570
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: can be very challenging for that type of person as well.

571
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: Beyond those two kind of caveats, I think they're experiences

572
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: that can be very challenging UM and still really positive.

573
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: Actually throw a will more caveat UM. I think there

574
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: are people who are who are practicing some of these

575
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: medicines who are not creating safe containers. So all of us,

576
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: when we're honest, like in a non ordinary state of consciousness.

577
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: We're vulnerable and you really need the people around you

578
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: to be making sure you're safe. And that can be

579
00:33:57,840 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: as simple as I have to go to the bathroom,

580
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: how do I get from here to there? And it

581
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 1: can be as extreme as don't touch me when I'm

582
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,280
Speaker 1: in this team. So there can be very bad trips

583
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: with people who are not holding safe containers. UM. But

584
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: I think beyond that, the medicine brings up a lot

585
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: that um that we might not have wanted to look

586
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: at it, we might not have looked at if it

587
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: wasn't for this um and and and way. And regardless

588
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: of what I think Johns Hopkins, they've they've done tons

589
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: of research on this, and people who said this was

590
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 1: one of the hardest things I've ever done would also

591
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: rate it as one of the top five or ten

592
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: things they've ever experienced in their lives. So, um So,

593
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: challenging does not mean bad. That's kind of what I've

594
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: always associated. I talked to someone who had experienced a

595
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 1: psychedelic journey before I did it, and she I said,

596
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 1: I just keep getting a little nervous that what if

597
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,479
Speaker 1: I have a bad trip, Like I don't even really

598
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: know what I was asking. I was just sort of like,

599
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 1: that's what you here. You know, especially with mushrooms, I

600
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: think people can be like or you know LSD people

601
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: are like, oh, you can get stuck that way, or

602
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 1: just whatever you hear. And so I had asked her

603
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,399
Speaker 1: what how to get over that anxiety and she was like,

604
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: she literally said to me, there is no such thing

605
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 1: as a bad trip. And I hear your caveats, and

606
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: I believe that that's accurate. Um, but she said, whatever

607
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: is coming up is meant to come up, and it's

608
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: teaching you something. And so that's why I said I

609
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,799
Speaker 1: was talking to my anxiety during the trip, Like, there

610
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: was a moment where I had to get up and

611
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: use the restroom and I couldn't go by myself, so

612
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: you know, my guide had to walk me there. And

613
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: then I got in the bathroom and I actually started

614
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: laughing out loud because the walls were moving and you know,

615
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: just the tiles were like looking all crazy, and um,

616
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: I was like, whoa, I am gone. It was I've

617
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,879
Speaker 1: never been like that before and so it was really

618
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: strange experience. But um, I got back in my bed,

619
00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 1: which is where I was doing my journey, and I

620
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: had the moment come up where I was like, oh

621
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 1: my god, what if I get stuck like this? Like

622
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: I feel like this forever. I see the walls like

623
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: I just saw them. And it wasn't really until I

624
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: kind of integrated my awareness with where I was on

625
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,320
Speaker 1: my trip that I had that panic. But I remembered

626
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: what Ruthie said and she was just like, you start

627
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: talking to it, and I was like okay. So I

628
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 1: literally said, oh, high anxiety, I see you, and then

629
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: I was gone again back into my journey, and it

630
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: was just it just needed to be acknowledged almost, and

631
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 1: so I just beautiful, you had a really good preparation.

632
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 1: I mean that is knowing how long, knowing that if

633
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 1: something comes up and you're uncomfortable, just surrendered to it.

634
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: What are you here to me? It's okay, I'm just surrendering.

635
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 1: But that's something I've taken to my life now, Like

636
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: when it comes up and I feel the feeling, instead

637
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: of reacting, I'm like, oh, whoa, there you are? What

638
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 1: what is it? What are you? What's going on? Like

639
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 1: what you know? I just talked to myself And that

640
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 1: might sound crazy to some people, but it is actually

641
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: one of the greatest tools that I learned in that

642
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: experience to just be really in tune with myself. That's

643
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,359
Speaker 1: that awareness you're talking about from earlier. You can see

644
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: it now in a way that you couldn't, and you

645
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: could see it as this is a story. This is

646
00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: just a this is just make believe. This is not real.

647
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,319
Speaker 1: This is believe that living in a fictitious past. We're

648
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: living in a fictitious future, but it's not living right now.

649
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: It's just a story. So I okay, I don't need

650
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: to accept that. You can move on. I've heard you

651
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: say in a podcast that psychedelics are one of the

652
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: greatest ways to get to know yourself. Can you talk

653
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: a little bit about that for me? I think with again,

654
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,760
Speaker 1: we get into these thought patterns. It's repetitive thinking behavior,

655
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: and as we get older, those those tracks in our

656
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: brains get deeper, the amount of neurons that are connecting

657
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: get fewer. And when when you take this psychedelic medicine,

658
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 1: you're gonna light up a whole bunch of neural pathways

659
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: that you haven't it up in years. And during that time,

660
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 1: that gives your brain a chance to to look around

661
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 1: and to UM. I can't overstate enough the power of

662
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: removing shame, blame, and guilt. So one thing I read

663
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 1: about in my book Kelly, is back when I was

664
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: an early teenager, I had some inappropriate sexual contact with

665
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: the family member ten years older. And it I am

666
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: a compartmentalizer. I had tucked that away. It was in

667
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 1: the vault. We were not talking about it. We were not,

668
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 1: But every now and again, something would happen and I

669
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: would feel this thing in my stomach, like this pit,

670
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: or my cheeks would start to get red or my

671
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: ears are your red, and I'd have this almost like

672
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: a nauseous feeling where I was reprocessing it. Um. In

673
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: one of my psychedelic experiences, I was right back there

674
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: and I did not ask to be back there. It

675
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: was not part of my intentions, it was not some

676
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: thing I was working on. It just happened, UM, And

677
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: I was able to relok at this situation without shame, blame,

678
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:10,919
Speaker 1: or guilt. So what did that look like? It looked

679
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: like me saying, huh, I don't have to forgive or

680
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,919
Speaker 1: condone what this person did. But I can also see

681
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: how deeply unloved she was feeling, how rejected from her father,

682
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: how the substance use issues that she was going through,

683
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 1: the how lost she was. And again I don't have

684
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: to condone, but I can empathize. And again right now

685
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: thirty some years later, and it just went away. I

686
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: can now talk about it. I don't have a pit.

687
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: It's gone. I did not know how much I was

688
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 1: carrying until that moment. I didn't know myself. Um, I

689
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: didn't know how much this bothered me until that day. UM,

690
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 1: because I wouldn't. I just wouldn't talk about it. So

691
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 1: that's just That's one probably a million examples that people

692
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: can give, but it's for me. It was just I

693
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 1: was like, Wow, I just can't believe what I was

694
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: carrying for decades that I didn't need to be nothing

695
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 1: physically or changed from one day to another. It was

696
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 1: just the way I looked at that experience. And I

697
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: owe that to the power of the psychedelic mm hmm.

698
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,160
Speaker 1: What would you say to people listening that are like, yeah,

699
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: but I don't want to go back. I don't want

700
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: to look at that stuff, you know, like you keep

701
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: saying the word I was carrying, did you, I mean,

702
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: were you conscious of that way? Like it doesn't sound

703
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: like before that experience you necessarily were. And so I

704
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: feel like sometimes in our culture people are like, yeah,

705
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: but I don't want to do that, you know, like

706
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: I'm good and why would I want to go drag

707
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 1: up the past? Like what would you say? What do

708
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: you feel differently now? It's a So I'm curious what

709
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: your reaction be on this when when for me, when

710
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 1: I experience the psychedelic medicine or drug, the weight of

711
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: the world is lifted off my shoulders. I am just

712
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: in this zone of bliss and of love and of abundance,

713
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: and there's no room for scarcity, there is no room

714
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:36,879
Speaker 1: for fear. There's just there's plenty. I'm plenty. There's plenty.

715
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: Life is good. And then there's the stories that come up.

716
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 1: This is a story or a read. Sure it's based

717
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: on an experience, but it's my interpretation of that experience.

718
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 1: It's my story. So the medicine is like, Okay, you're

719
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: in this place of blissed, you in this place of safety.

720
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 1: Now you want to look at this because this is

721
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: something I know as a medicine that you're dealing with

722
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 1: on the other side. So let's knock this out of you. Yeah,

723
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: So I don't see it as a hardship to be

724
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: asked to do those things on the on the medicine,

725
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:15,800
Speaker 1: But I guess I would. I guess I would ask somebody,

726
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: if you don't want that, then what are you doing

727
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: it for? Anyhow? Are you just doing for some cool visuals?

728
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:27,720
Speaker 1: That's that's like a bonus side sidebar that this you're doing,

729
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 1: in my opinion, doing this to connect to a higher power.

730
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: You're doing this to get to know yourself. You're doing

731
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: this so that you can be a happier, more content

732
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: person and more connected and more giving and more um,

733
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: more awake. Yeah. I think that last part, the part

734
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,959
Speaker 1: about the happiness and the joy, that's what was first

735
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 1: pinning in my head because, um, I think the more

736
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:59,280
Speaker 1: you suppress and you stuff down and you become unaware

737
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: of the pain, the more you actually suppressed the joy

738
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: and the capability of like experiencing the good stuff too,

739
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: Like we're only to me. It's it's that, um, that balancing.

740
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 1: I don't really know the word for it, but it's

741
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 1: like you can't have one without the other. We can't

742
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 1: have joy without pain. And so if we're suppressing all

743
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 1: those feelings and we're not feeling pain, We're not really

744
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 1: feeling anything. And so if you can clear out and

745
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: release and free yourself of all of the painful things.

746
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,439
Speaker 1: And I love your story because it's such a good

747
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 1: story of like you holding onto the resentment and it

748
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 1: actually being the thing that is hurting you at that point, um,

749
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: versus punishing the other person and then finding freedom from

750
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: that and experiencing this whole new awareness and connection in

751
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: this capacity for love and joy and peace that you

752
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: probably had never even experienced before. In that releasing like that,

753
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,320
Speaker 1: to me is what this stuff does. It just helps

754
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: you get to the other side of whatever it was.

755
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:00,879
Speaker 1: And I actually I cry. I do the first part

756
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 1: of mine, and um, I actually no, you're probably not

757
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: supposed to. Everyone's experience is completely different, so you know,

758
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,919
Speaker 1: I sometimes I'm now trying not to give so many

759
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: specifics about mine. But I cried, but I wasn't sad.

760
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: It was like a release that I needed and then

761
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 1: I just laughed the whole second half. I was so happy.

762
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:22,919
Speaker 1: And so I think your body just knows what you need.

763
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: And so, like you said, if you're holding onto something

764
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: and it's time to let go, like it'll happen, and

765
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: whatever is supposed to happen happens. I do believe that

766
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 1: in this experience, which is why also not the experiences

767
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: between two people are never the same, but also for

768
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 1: the same person. You're a different person today than you

769
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 1: were a week ago or next week, and your psychedelic

770
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: journey at any of those points in time might be

771
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: very different. And that's that's okay, it's meant to be

772
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,479
Speaker 1: that way. Yeah, well this, why go ahead, go ahead?

773
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 1: There's the whole thing about not about discovering the love

774
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 1: you have. You can have for yourself then allow as

775
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 1: you too, then turn that out outwards. So for me,

776
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 1: like I don't think I know, I wasn't as connected

777
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: as my wife as I could have been. I wasn't

778
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: connected with my kids as much as I could have been. UM,

779
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:16,919
Speaker 1: and through this it's like, wait a minute, I have

780
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: plenty of love that I can give them, and I

781
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: can see where I was holding back. I was holding

782
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 1: back because I was afraid of dying. I was holding back.

783
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: I didn't know what they were looking for. I didn't

784
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: know that all they wanted was my love. UM, and

785
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 1: that was like, okay, I get that. And then even

786
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: the love with other people Like I again, as a guy,

787
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, you're taught that love is is in

788
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: the bedroom, like you're trying to this is this is

789
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 1: love for this is intimacy and the idea that no, no, no,

790
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,399
Speaker 1: you can be intimate with a lot of people and

791
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 1: not of any sexual energy and that's beautiful and you

792
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: have plenty of love to go around. I had no idea.

793
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: I didn't. I just didn't. That just was in my awareness. Yeah,

794
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 1: I totally resonate with that, and I think there's like

795
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: a removal of fear that it happens to with that

796
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 1: fear and love is the balance that I would talk

797
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: about there, but um, yeah, the capacity for love. And

798
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 1: also like I don't know if you felt this, but

799
00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 1: I had this moment where I was just like, this

800
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: is why we're here and we get so lost and

801
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: all the other ship and you're like, God, that doesn't

802
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: even matter, None of it matters about like, have you

803
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 1: ever seen someone take their last breath? I don't know

804
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: if kell you asked you that question? Have you seen that? Um?

805
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: I haven't seen the actual last breath. Now. I was

806
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 1: with my grandfather when he died though, and yes, I

807
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:47,959
Speaker 1: think I had a similar experience. What you're about to say,

808
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,760
Speaker 1: but go ahead. And so when when you watch somebody

809
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,320
Speaker 1: in that moment and you know that every breath, that

810
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 1: those last breaths are so precious, and my I would

811
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 1: imagine that from many people they would give everything for

812
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: another breath or another breath. And how much of our

813
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: lives we we just throw them away. We have all

814
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 1: these units of energy and we just waste them because

815
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: we're doing something, we're building something, but we're not connecting,

816
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 1: we're not loving, We're just moving things around. And and again,

817
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: I think psychedelics can show you as a catalyst, not

818
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: a cure, can show you these units of energy, these

819
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:40,399
Speaker 1: breaths are really valuable, and you can move things around

820
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,720
Speaker 1: and not move anythings around. It doesn't change your worth

821
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: as a person. You are valuable just as you are.

822
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: Enjoy your breaths. Enjoy your breaths. I love that the

823
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: book is called Psychedelics for Everyone. Can you tell the

824
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 1: listeners a little bit about what they can find in

825
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: the book. Sure? Um, I wanted to put put a

826
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: book together that has some personal stories. So I have

827
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: four kind of just revealing stories in there, and then

828
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 1: a beginning section that's kind of just like an overview

829
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: of psychedelics. What does this mean, where did they come from,

830
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 1: what is the overall research? What are things to be

831
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: aware of with UM, with kind of them as a whole.

832
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: And then it goes into the eight most common compounds

833
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: that people tend to think about, so psilocyde. There's a

834
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,839
Speaker 1: chapter in psilocybin, another one in m D M a

835
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: IB again, kenemine, ayahuasca, UM lsd UM, and it dives

836
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 1: deep into kind of how do they work, what does

837
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: the research say, what are things you should know? UM,

838
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:46,400
Speaker 1: what does the risk profile? And then I put it together,

839
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: so there's pieces I wrote, the pieces I had other people, right,

840
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 1: I had medical advisors fact check every chapter. UM. But

841
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: it's written for people who don't have a scientific background.

842
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: But I still put in the references so that if

843
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: you something strikes you as into saying, oh, I'm curious

844
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 1: about UM psilocybin for alcohol used disorder, there's papers in

845
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: there that you can go pool if that's interesting to you. UM.

846
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:14,280
Speaker 1: And I'm hoping that people the book psychedelics for everyone.

847
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 1: I didn't mean that everyone should take a psychedelic. What

848
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 1: I meant was that for those who, UM do want

849
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 1: to take them great, For those who aren't aware how

850
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: they could help someone else, this book will help. And

851
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 1: for those who are just wondering, how do I vote?

852
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: How do I think about this? As a public policy issue?

853
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 1: It would help for that as well and for them.

854
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: I'm hoping that people walk away saying, yeah, these are

855
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,720
Speaker 1: good for society, this is good for the world. Um

856
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: and I don't need to take it to believe that

857
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 1: psychedelics are for everyone. Yeah, I wish everyone would take it.

858
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: I'll work on that one next year. Can work on that.

859
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: We can both work on that, Kelly, one person at

860
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 1: a time. Yeah, Matt, thank you so much for being here.

861
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 1: Where else can people find you? I'm gonna put the

862
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,280
Speaker 1: link of the book in the description of this podcast

863
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 1: if you guys want to go check that out. But

864
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 1: where else can they find you? If they want to

865
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 1: just keep up with everything else you're doing? Yeah, So,

866
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: Matt zeeman Z e m o N dot com is

867
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: my website. I've got a bunch of videos on different

868
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,479
Speaker 1: compounds and information. I have a free guide to micro

869
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: dosing for people are interested in that with kind of

870
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: the different protocols and ways to think about micro docing. Okay,

871
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 1: and then UM, linked in and Instagram, UM pretty pretty

872
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 1: much out there's and and I answer my things. So

873
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,320
Speaker 1: if you have questions, if you're listening, your fifty minutes

874
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,320
Speaker 1: into this and you're listening and you're curious about something,

875
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: don't be shy. I send us send a question. Amazing.

876
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 1: Will you guys go check out Matt on all of

877
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 1: his pages. I will put all the links to everything

878
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 1: and all these resources in the description of the podcast. Matt,

879
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 1: thank you again so much for being here. Kelly, thanks

880
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 1: for having me. I appreciate it. Thanks for listening to

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00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 1: The Velvet's Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson, where we believe

882
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: everyone has a little velvet and a little edge. Subscribe

883
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:57,280
Speaker 1: for more conversations on life, style, beauty, and relationships. Search

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00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:00,879
Speaker 1: Velvet's Edge wherever you get your podcasts. Four