1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Blow winds and crack your cheeks, rage, 2 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: blow you cataracts, hurricanoes, spout till you have drenched our steeples, 3 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: drowned the cocks. You'll so fur us and thought executing fires. 4 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: That's actually from Act three, Scene two of King Lear. 5 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: This is part two of the New Jersey Mansion Murders. 6 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. In 7 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: the first episode with the Mansion murders, we kind of 8 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: laid the groundwork, didn't we day for this unbelievable familial 9 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: tragedy that has occurred. And it would seem, just as 10 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: in the case of King Lear, that there were storms 11 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,960 Speaker 1: all about that you can curse the storms as much 12 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: as you want, but they're still going to come. And 13 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:20,320 Speaker 1: in this case it has ravaged this family and this community. 14 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: We're talking about four innocent people executed by shooting, by stabbing, 15 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: and then to make matters even worse, burned. It's really 16 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: hard to take the measure of it, isn't it, Dave. 17 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 2: That it is and Joe in this case where we 18 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 2: are dealing with a family being destroyed, and I mean 19 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 2: that in the general sense of the entire Canaro family. 20 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 2: And we're going Biblical on this. This is Book of 21 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 2: Genesis stuff, brother killing brother over you know, yeah, yeah, 22 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 2: And that's what we have. We have the older brother 23 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,799 Speaker 2: accused of killing the younger brother, and it comes down 24 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 2: to brains and money. Jealous of brains and a disagreement 25 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 2: about money. I've been here since the beginning. I deserve 26 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 2: the same thing you do, and that's just not the case. 27 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 2: It happens in a lot of businesses, but it's not 28 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 2: the case. And they saw things differently. Keith was at 29 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,239 Speaker 2: the point where he had decided that since his brother 30 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 2: Paul was spending too much money on things he didn't 31 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 2: that Keith did not believe need to be spent, he 32 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 2: was going to cut Paul's salary. I mentioned this in 33 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 2: the first episode. They were equal partners in one business, 34 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: but not in Square one, the tech business that was 35 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 2: the business that had a big future. Paul was not 36 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 2: a profit sharing participant in that. He wildly made it ben, 37 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: but he was not an equal partner. Be clear on that. 38 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 2: It was an employee and as his boss, Heath was 39 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 2: getting ready to cut his salary. A little demotion. You 40 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 2: can tell by how they lived. That there was a 41 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 2: big discrepancy in finance. 42 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, there was. However, I have to say quartermill per 43 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: year is nothing to sneeze at. 44 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: No, it's not. 45 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:26,839 Speaker 1: And you know, I I don't know. I guess I'm 46 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: very theatrial today. I'm thinking about it. There there's that 47 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: that that scene you know from Wall Street where Charlie 48 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: Sheen's character is asking Michael Douglas's character, you know, how 49 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: many yachts can you ski behind? And I don't know, 50 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: you know, but look, success is success, and it's earned 51 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: most of the time through hard work, and it it 52 00:03:54,560 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: creates an underlying jealousy. And look, we've known this ages, 53 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: right and you go back to canaan Abel. You know, 54 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: it's about jealousy, it's about envy, you know, those sorts 55 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: of things. But my Lord, to come to the point 56 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 1: where you've decided to execute a man in his front yard, 57 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: and I think it's rather emblematic of jealousy, because again, 58 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: this is all allegedly occurring at the hands of one 59 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: brother has not gone to trial yet. But to execute 60 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: a man in the front yard of this what has 61 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: been called a mansion, a mansion by New Jersey standards, 62 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: and then to go into a home wielding a pistol 63 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: and executing a wife, shooting her and then stabbing her 64 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 1: as if the shooting wasn't enough, and then go into 65 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: the bedroom of these because Dave, they they are children. Reminder, 66 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: they're eight and eleven, their little kids. You go in 67 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: and and you know, you hope that they didn't wake 68 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: up to see the man that they had spent Thanksgiving 69 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: with and you know, Christmas, and you know, maybe had 70 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 1: gone on vacation with him. Can you imagine that his 71 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: face illuminated there, you know, in that in that moment, 72 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: and he's willeding a knife and repeatedly stabbing them. I 73 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: don't know, it's uh, you know, I use the term 74 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: it's hard to take the measure of, but it truly is. 75 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: And when it comes down to it, it's it's just 76 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: absolute pure evil, Dave. 77 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 2: When the details of this case came out, I was 78 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: looking at the murder of Keith Canero on his front 79 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:59,559 Speaker 2: yard and I wondered how everything took place. I'm thinking 80 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 2: he was probably the first victim. Because Paul Canaro is 81 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,359 Speaker 2: accused of going into the home and killing Jennifer, the 82 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 2: wife and mother, and the two children differently than he 83 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 2: killed allegedly killed Keith. So did he run out of bullets? 84 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 2: I mean from the shrime scene, what do you see? 85 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's what I'm thinking here. And you know, 86 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: you got to think dad's the gatekeeper here, right, because 87 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: if he sees someone in his yard, maybe maybe there 88 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: was a phone call preceding this, Maybe there was a. 89 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 2: Knock at the door early morning five A. 90 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and maybe maybe it's known that this man is 91 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: an early riser. He gets up, he's having this cup 92 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: of coffee, arrest of the families inside the house. It 93 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: would have to be someone that would be familiar, you know, 94 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: with the environment with this dwelling, certainly, And how do 95 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: you draw them out of the house? Do you do 96 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: you have a key to the house? Did you force 97 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 1: the entry into the house? Uh? Did you take this 98 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: man at gunpoint? Take him into the front and Dave, 99 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: this is the front yard? Think about that, the front yard. 100 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: You're going to execute somebody in their front yard. This 101 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: is not like you've done it in cover. Okay, you 102 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: know you haven't marched somebody out into the woods and 103 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: uh pumped rounds into them and left their body. I 104 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: mean how many cases have we have we covered that 105 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: involved concealment of a homicide and not just the body 106 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 1: but actually the act. You know, you know, you think 107 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: about this when this dynamic of of having someone in 108 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: their front yard and then unloading a weapon into their body, 109 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 1: and that has that has drawn me into this idea. 110 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: Did the individual run out of of live rounds at 111 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: this point in time or were they down to one? 112 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: And then you come armed also with a knife that 113 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: is sufficient to the task. And what I mean by 114 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: that it's not you're not talking about a steak knife, 115 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: because now you're utilizing a knife in order to facilitate 116 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: not the death of just one person, but an additional 117 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: two though they are children. You need something that's going 118 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,839 Speaker 1: to be robust enough, that will that will withstand this 119 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: vigorous utilization of it where you're you're constantly, you know, 120 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: just stabbing over and over and over again. It has 121 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: to be robust enough to maintain that. So, yeah, I 122 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: think that what's so eye catching about about the mansion 123 00:08:53,880 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: murder is the fact that you've got husband, father laying 124 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: dead in the front yard, don't I don't recall us 125 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: ever covering a case like this where it's it's almost like, 126 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's done in plain view, if you will. Now, 127 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: granted we have to go back to what we talked 128 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: about in the first episode. This mansion is very isolated. 129 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: I say isolated. It's not encumbered by you know, you're 130 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: not talking about where you've got a division of two 131 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: to three feet between holmes. You know how they'll go 132 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: into a subdivision, they'll build homes this way, And it's 133 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: not like this. This is on a substantial plot of 134 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: land up there, David. 135 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 2: And happening early in the morning. And again, Joe, I'm 136 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: I'm really befuddled by what took place because it is 137 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 2: so close. You're talking about brothers here, and you're talking 138 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 2: about niece's nephews, sister in law. You're talking about the 139 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: things that make life life. And Paul Canaro is allegedly 140 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 2: the guy that ended an entire family's life. Now front yard, 141 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 2: Keith Canaro is shot once in a lower back and 142 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 2: four times in the head. You got five bullets there, 143 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 2: assuming you didn't miss. No, I don't know how many 144 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 2: shots he fired, but you did mention you know they 145 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 2: are It's not like it's out in the middle of nowhere, 146 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 2: but it is isolated enough that gunshots at that time 147 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 2: of the day might not wake the neighbors because they're 148 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 2: a little bit further away than needed. But we've got 149 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 2: him dead on the front yard. You arrive. You mentioned 150 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 2: this in the previous show about when the firemen get there. 151 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 2: It's twelve thirty in the day. Okay, this began at 152 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 2: five am, before sun up, but nobody knows about it 153 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 2: until twelve thirty in the day when a next door 154 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 2: neighbor calls the fire department. So how did the murder 155 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 2: And let's just art with Keith Canara, How did his 156 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 2: murder occur in the front yard, assuming that he was 157 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 2: the first one killed, And that's probably not even a 158 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 2: good assumption, is it. 159 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: No, And it's hard to it's hard to put and 160 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: again with with whether it's stabbing or shooting. All right, 161 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to sequence cases. And I think that 162 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: many times jurors come in to a trial and they 163 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: expect the forensic pathologists to sit on the stand and 164 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: be able to say, Okay, this is the order that 165 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,839 Speaker 1: the injuries took place in. There are those cases where 166 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: that can be accomplished. However, in a case like this. 167 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 1: The big question is, well, I'm very interested in this 168 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: gsw to the back. Was there any hemorrhage in that wound? 169 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,719 Speaker 1: Like let's just say, for instance, this dynamic where you 170 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: actually have you actually have have Keith turning his back 171 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 1: on the perpetrator and to walk away, and this is 172 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: just one scenario, and the perpetrator fires center mass into 173 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 1: his back and knocks him down. Okay, Well, at autopsy, 174 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: one of the things that that we would do, and 175 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: this has not been revealed yet, is that at autopsy 176 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: you would check that wound to see if there's hemorrhage 177 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: in there, because even in a perry mortem state where 178 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: the individual is in the midst of dying as opposed 179 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: you know, I've talked about this before in between you know, 180 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: we've talked about anti mortem and perry mortim and post mortem. 181 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: So you've got this gunshot went to the back. Was 182 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: this used to knock him down to get him under control? 183 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: And then you approach him, you get closer and Dave, 184 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: you know, now, granted I've got a rather large melon 185 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: and on top of my shoulders, but heads are not 186 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: something that are to score headshot on anybody from a 187 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: firearm's perspective is indeed quite the feet and particularly with 188 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: a handgun. Okay, handguns are not noted for great accuracy 189 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: at distance, So you have to think about the relationship 190 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 1: between the end of that muzzle and where these bullet 191 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,199 Speaker 1: defects or projectile defects are in the head. So after 192 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: he's on the ground, maybe shot in the back. We 193 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 1: don't know this. I'm just kind of throwing this out there. 194 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 1: Then you approach him and you pump the rest of 195 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 1: these rounds in to his head. Are they through and through? 196 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: Which means do you have you know, around that inner say, 197 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: in the back of the head and exits out at 198 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:57,839 Speaker 1: the front. Are all these rounds still contained within the head? 199 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: And when they say head, it doesn't necessarily mean like 200 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: the cranial vault, because if they say head, it can 201 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: mean face, it can mean jaw, it can be something 202 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: that is just kind of a gray's wound that you 203 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: have maybe that runs along one aspect of the neck, 204 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: that is a separate gunshot wound from everything else. This 205 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: is another thing I've talked about through and through. You know, 206 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: many times when you fire into well most of the 207 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: time when you fire into a skull. There is going 208 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: to take place a fracturing of the plates of the skull, 209 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: so that compromises the structural integrity. So maybe you will 210 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: fire into a skull a single time and that first 211 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: round will not exit the skull. But once that structural 212 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: integrity of the skull is compromised, and you've got these 213 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: kind of little they look like for those that have 214 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: never seen it, they'll kind of if you take a 215 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: hard boled egg and you dropped it on the surface 216 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: and look at how the shell will fracture. You get 217 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: these multiple floating areas in there. Well, that's the integrity 218 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: of the egg being compromised. So you can fire into 219 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: a skull that's already fractured. Now, whereas you may have 220 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: been able to contain the first shot, those subsequent shots 221 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: might pass through and through, so you might have wherever 222 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: he is laying, you might have these projectiles that have 223 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: passed through the skull. They've had to go in and 224 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: excavate these, you know, from beneath the body, and that 225 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: would be something that would be quite quite critical in 226 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: a case like this, because you're trying to tie back 227 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: those projectiles to the same weapon. Okay, or you know, 228 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: if you're thinking that maybe you've got multiple shooters, well, 229 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: why would multiple shooters shoot a guy multiple times in 230 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: the head. This is not Hollywood. And why is it 231 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: that anyone would shoot some more than one time in 232 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: the head, Because if you have an understanding of firearms, 233 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: then you would understand that it's probably only to take 234 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: one right, particularly if he's already shot in the back. 235 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: What's the need for And of course, with that idea 236 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: in mind, Dave, this goes to overkill, and overkill always 237 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: goes to passion, doesn't. So Keith is lying on the 238 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: front lawn, multiple gunshot wounds. I think that anybody that 239 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: has the least bit of perception on their part can 240 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: tell that Keith is not getting up from this. That 241 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: line of the home, if you will, that in visual 242 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:07,680 Speaker 1: that would provide safety, that would protect his family is down. Now. 243 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: Any perpetrator that wanted to could go into the home 244 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: and they're going to be face to face with Keith's wife. Well, 245 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: did Keith's wife hear anything, did she alert to it, 246 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: or did the perpetrator seek her out in a specific 247 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: location within the home and then attack her. Well, we 248 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: know that she has sustained at least one gunshot wound 249 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: to her body and multiple stab wounds. Once you've eliminated 250 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: the adults, the children are easy prey. But you run 251 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: the risk by discharging a firearm in that house to 252 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: alert everyone in there? What happened with the kids? Did 253 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: the kids know that a weapon had been fired from 254 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: within the house? Did they wake up? Now? Just because 255 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: the neighbors didn't hear this day doesn't mean that the 256 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: people inside the house, and I'm talking about Keith's family, 257 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: his wife and those precious children, I'm you know, did 258 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: they hear the report of the firearm over and over 259 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: and over again outside? Did they hear? And I say they, 260 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: I mean the children. Did they hear their mother being 261 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: shot inside of the house? Did they alert to this? 262 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: Or is this house, this structure so vast, it's so large, 263 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: that they're positioned in a place where they might not 264 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 1: hear it. I think these are all salient questions. 265 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 2: Day and powerful when you actually look at the dynamic here. 266 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 2: Assuming that we have Keith Canaro dead on the front yard, 267 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 2: and then going in you have his wife, Jennifer forty 268 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 2: five years old. She's mother. She's not going to let 269 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 2: you know what talking about the dad being there to stop, 270 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 2: you know, protecting all that. Well, hey, when dad's not there, 271 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 2: it's mom, Yeah, mama bear, Yeah, she's going to protect 272 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,959 Speaker 2: the babies. And so she is shot once and then 273 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 2: knifed not knowing. Because it hasn't gone a trial yet, 274 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 2: we don't have all of the information, but we do 275 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:19,360 Speaker 2: know that Jennifer Canaro was shot and stabbed multiple times. 276 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 2: We know that the children were not shot, they were 277 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 2: only stabbed, which is an up close and personal murder. 278 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 2: Talk to you about this on the phone as I 279 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 2: was prepping this, because I was trying to get my 280 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 2: head wrapped around all of this that when we talk 281 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:38,719 Speaker 2: about a gunshot wound that can be cold, doesn't have 282 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 2: to be up close and personal, but when you talk 283 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: about strangulation or stabbing, you've got to be right there 284 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 2: on the person. And so I was thinking, perhaps maybe 285 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 2: the alleged shooter killer only had one round left in 286 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 2: the gun and he used that on Jennifer and that 287 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 2: immobilized her enough so that he could finish the job 288 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 2: with the knife. And then he takes on the children 289 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 2: who are only eight and eleven, assuming a lot because 290 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 2: we don't know, But here's my bigger question, Joe. We 291 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,439 Speaker 2: know that a fire in this house began early in 292 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 2: the morning. We know that it wasn't reported until the 293 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 2: next door neighbors, as you mentioned a little ways away, 294 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,239 Speaker 2: they saw smoke earlier in the day and assume they 295 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 2: were just hey, got a fire in the fireplace, asked smoke. 296 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 2: But when that smoke continued and got bigger and got bigger, 297 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 2: that's when they called police and fire and said, hey, 298 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 2: we got a fire next door, you know, come on. 299 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 2: And so now that we have looked at this, the 300 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 2: fire crews show up on the scene. They find Keith 301 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 2: Canaro on the front yard debt. You mentioned in our 302 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 2: last episode that once they are positive he is gone, 303 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 2: they no life saving measures can be taken. They basically 304 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 2: cover the body and move onto the house to see 305 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 2: what else they've gone in there. 306 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, yeah, they would, and they'll they will freeze. 307 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: They will freeze the processing of the crime scene. Okay, 308 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 1: until that moment. And here's something. 309 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 2: That when you say freeze the crime scene. 310 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:23,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you pointed out that's really inaccurate. They 311 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: will forego processing the crime scene at that moment. Tom. 312 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: It's just like if you come across. If you come 313 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 1: across somebody that is bled out somewhere, maybe they're in 314 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,479 Speaker 1: one area of the house, well, you're you have to 315 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: go through the rest of the house in order to 316 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: assess if there is someone that is still there, they've 317 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 1: been injured and perhaps you can save them. But at 318 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: an even higher level here, we're not talking about that. 319 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: We're actually talking about a fully involved fire at this point, 320 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: where you have to knock this thing down. So the 321 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 1: fact that he has deceased, that Keith is deceased on 322 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: his front lawn is trumped by the necessity of knocking 323 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 1: down this fire because you don't know. I mean, keep 324 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: in mind, Dave this thing and trust me, firefighters structurally, 325 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: they are aware of what they've got on their hands here. 326 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 1: This house is a tinder box, okay, of all the 327 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: household items, everything, and they know that this thing can 328 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: get out of hand really quick. And most of the time, 329 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: you know, November when this case happened, November is a 330 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:44,119 Speaker 1: very dry month over pretty much most of the US. 331 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: It's not like springtime where you've got storms that are 332 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: rolling through and supersaturated ground and all this stuff. You've 333 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: got dry leaves about. There's tender everywhere, and not to 334 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: mention everything. If you've got this neighborhood that's adjacent to 335 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: wood area. If they don't get the scene knocked down, 336 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: the sink can spread, and so they're thinking about all 337 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: of the rest of the area, you know, to try 338 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: to keep it contained as best they can, and then 339 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: they will return or the scene will be turned over 340 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: two investigators following getting this thing knocked down and secured 341 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: to the point, and they'll have to go through the 342 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,959 Speaker 1: home to see if you know, maybe a kid crawled 343 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: inside of a closet and just by the grace of God, 344 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: they have survived this inferno. You never know what you're 345 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 1: going to find. Maybe they ran into the basement, you know, 346 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: maybe they're there, they're sequestered down there, away from all 347 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 1: of this damage that's going on. They have to go 348 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: through and assess all of this. They have to know 349 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 1: do they have a gas leak on their hands? Is 350 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: there something in this house that could kick off where 351 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: now you're not just dealing with a fully involved fire, 352 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,440 Speaker 1: Now you're going to deal with a potential explosion. You've 353 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: got motor vehicles there that presumably are gas operated. Are 354 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: they going to be you know, are they going to 355 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: be involved in the fire again another explosion. Is there 356 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 1: a propane tank adjacent to the house. Do they work 357 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: on natural gas or is it propane tank that's operating 358 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: everything within the home? Is this thing going to explode? 359 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: There's so many other considerations when firefighters are assessing an area. 360 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: And I know a lot of people think, well, you're 361 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: dragging a hose and this could happen. I'm not saying 362 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: it happen. In this case, it has happened. You're dragging 363 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: hose and equipment over a decedent in the front yard. Well, 364 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: you try, you make note of it. But let me 365 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 1: tell you something. If if there is a decedent in 366 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: the front yard of a structure and you're trying to 367 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 1: pull a hose from the curb that's attached to a 368 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: pumper or directly to a fire hydrant, if the body 369 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: is there, that hose is going right over body. They're 370 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 1: going to get to the house to knock this fire down. 371 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: So it's a real intricate dance, and you have to 372 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: take account of this when you're processing the scene. And 373 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: here's something interesting that many people might not know. Did 374 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: you know that investigators will take statements from everybody that's 375 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 1: present at that scene, and that's something you know. So 376 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: you'll go back and you'll interview the firefighters, you'll interview 377 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: the paramedics, you'll interview the lieutenants and the captains that 378 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,719 Speaker 1: rode in on those trucks. If a chief shows up 379 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: in a car and he crossed that tape, he's getting 380 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: interviewed or she's getting interviewed. So everybody that rolls out 381 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: to that scene is going to be interviewed. We want 382 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: to know what you have to say because in most 383 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: cases like this, the police will be there, but the 384 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: police are not running into the house. That's what the 385 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: firefighters do. So when the firefighters make their way into 386 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: that house, they're going to have the first snapshot of 387 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: what's going on in this environment. Okay, some of them 388 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: might have seen the scene before got completely obliterated by fire, 389 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: so their remembrances are so critical to this case, Dave, 390 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: that they can appreciate what happened, what level of destruction, 391 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: Where did you see the most intense areas of flame? 392 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: Did you hear anything when you entered the house. So 393 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,719 Speaker 1: all of that plays into all of this as very complex. 394 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 2: All right, So that actually explains. This is from the 395 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 2: actual timeline put together by the prosecutor. Sometimes before five am, 396 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 2: Paul Knaro allegedly removed certain items of evidence that's a 397 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 2: direct quote, certain items of evidence from his brother's place 398 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 2: and set fire to the house. We don't know what 399 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 2: these certain items of evidence are. They will come out 400 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 2: of trial, but police new enough investigators determined he actually 401 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 2: removed certain items of evidence. Then the fire was not 402 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,639 Speaker 2: discovered until twelve thirty eight PM that day when a 403 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 2: neighbor's groundskeeper reported it to authorities. Direct quote, again, based 404 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 2: on what we know about the cause and origin of 405 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 2: that fire, It was started in the basement, It continues 406 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 2: to smolder until there was entry made into the home. 407 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 2: Entry is not made by Keith, his wife, his children, 408 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 2: because they're all dead. Keith on the front yard, the 409 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 2: rest of the families in the house. The entry was 410 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 2: made by fire fighters that went inside to see They 411 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 2: see the smoldering, they see what's going on, and this 412 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 2: is what he says. The prosecutor says, quote, a great 413 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 2: deal of oxygen coming into the home effectively fed the fire. 414 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 2: So it wasn't reported until twelve thirty eight. And what 415 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 2: we believe caused the fire to catch on from there 416 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: is likely the feeding of oxygen as the house was 417 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 2: entered into. 418 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's a beautiful excep do nation. It's actually 419 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: something that we use in fire science to teach our 420 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,959 Speaker 1: students with because fire itself is what's referred to as 421 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: an uninhibited chemical chain reaction. So you have to have 422 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 1: a heat source striking a match. You have to have 423 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: an accelerant. Well, that could be any number of different 424 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:27,120 Speaker 1: petroleum items for instance. Okay, some are a bit more 425 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 1: unstable than others. Gasoline is very unstable, whereas if you 426 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: have diesel, for instance, it'll burn a bit slower. Kerosene 427 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: kind of rest in the middle there. And there's other 428 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: things that you can start fires with, you know, road flares, 429 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,959 Speaker 1: you know those sorts of things, and you can have 430 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: electrical origins. And then you have to have fuel source. Well, 431 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: in this case, the fuel source would be if anything 432 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: had been drug into the house, like dry wood you 433 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: had you know, people take piles of clothing and put 434 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: them about every now and then, or it can just 435 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: be furniture. It can be because you don't know what 436 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: the structure of that basement was. For all I know, 437 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: is a super duperman cave, and you've got wood paneling everywhere, 438 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: You've got wooden floors that's lacquered or whatever, and it's 439 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: smoldering in there, and it's seeking out oxygen. But if 440 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: it's sealed up so tightly that all you're getting is 441 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: kind of the seepage of smoke that's pouring out. And 442 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: then you have to have a supply of oxygen, an 443 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,719 Speaker 1: uninhibited supply of oxygen. So let me tell you this, 444 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: we're very lucky we don't have deceased firefighters, okay, because 445 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: when that door opens and oxygen blows into that room, 446 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: you can have this kind of flash over that takes 447 00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: place with this introduction of the source of oxygen, and 448 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you've got this blast that initiates. 449 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: And that's quite fascinating that the prosecutor framed it that way. 450 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: I'm very curious as to the mechanism that this individual 451 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: went with in order to get this thing to You've 452 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: got a slow burn that's going on. How do you 453 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: maintain that slow burn to the point where this thing 454 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: is not going to kick off for several hours, perhaps 455 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: after it's been set, maybe it's been kind of slowly 456 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: burning down there, and then all of a sudden boom, 457 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: the door opens up and you're in a raging inferno 458 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 1: at this point in time, which is critical here. What's 459 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 1: going to be fascinating this case, Dave, is to listen 460 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: to the arson investigators talk about this. One other thing 461 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: I'd like to know is was there any accelerant splashed 462 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: about the house? You see what I'm saying, So did 463 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: the perpetrator take multiple cans of an accelerant like gasoline 464 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:11,479 Speaker 1: and go floor by floor, room by room and body 465 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: by body. So many of our friends are very well 466 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: versed in forensics, and it's not just my doing, it's 467 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: just everything that you hear in true crime. And I'm 468 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: so glad that we have friends like that that listen 469 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: to the show. And if you've listened to True crime 470 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: for any period of time, you know that fire deaths 471 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: are deaths where fire has been introduced into an environment 472 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: are some of the most complex things that we work, 473 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: I mean, and you have to take account of the 474 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: body in its pristine state at the scene document those 475 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: things that seem so convoluted because it is fire scenes 476 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: are so messy. You're dealing with burned remnant that is 477 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: not necessarily just the body, but you're talking about ceilings 478 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: collapsing on bodies that are burning. Not just the bodies, 479 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: but the ceilings are burning, smoke damage, and all of 480 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 1: this ash has fallen down on the bodies. If there's 481 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: any remnant left of something that maybe clothing, maybe a 482 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: blanket a body was wrapped in, you have to be 483 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: able to appreciate all the little boundaries that have been 484 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: burned away in order to get everything up out of 485 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 1: that area, because you can, Dave, you can actually set 486 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: a body on fire or have fire into a body 487 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: and the clothing burned up, and of course the clothing 488 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: that is beneath the body will be to a certain extent, 489 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: don't run too far with this. To a certain extent, 490 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: it's going to be preserved. Say, if you've got a 491 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: couple of kids laying in bed and their bodies are burned, well, 492 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: if they're wearing pajamas, if they're laying face down, then 493 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: the surface on their chest is going to be protected 494 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: from totally being burned away, whereas everything on the back 495 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: is going to be gone. And this goes to injury 496 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: assessment too. You know, when we get these bodies into 497 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: the morgue. Where do you begin, Well, the first place 498 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: that we begin is going to be with the X rays. 499 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:50,239 Speaker 1: That has to That is key here because when you 500 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: look at a body that has been consumed partially by fire, 501 00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: first off, the external the external observations that you're making 502 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: are going to be like any nothing else that you 503 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 1: see on crime scenes. The bodies will be cracked, the 504 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,240 Speaker 1: surfaces will be burned to the point where the bodies 505 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: are literally charred, just like any other item that you 506 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: might have in a fire. And you can't make heads 507 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: or tails if you're looking at a bullet defect, or 508 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: if you're looking at a knife wound, if you're looking 509 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: at someone that has been pludging with something. So it 510 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: is very very complex, my friend. 511 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 2: All right, So we've got the three bodies in the house, 512 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 2: Jennifer and both children, Jesse and Sophia. And we know 513 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 2: that this fire smoldered for a number of hours before 514 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 2: it exploded into an inferno, with the oxygen being poured 515 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 2: into the building by doors being open and what have you. 516 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 2: We know that it took twenty different fire I don't 517 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 2: know if that's fire departments or if that's just fire. 518 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: You know, I think it's companies and those yeah, fire companies, Yeah. 519 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I But we've got twenty of those involved, 520 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 2: and they're not involved for just an hour. We got 521 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 2: twenty fire companies involved for hours trying to extinguish this fire. 522 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 2: We know that the bodies were burned, but how are 523 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 2: you going to determine based on the burning and everything else? 524 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 2: When somebody is stabbed, unless bone is nicked or something 525 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 2: along those lines, I would think that your evidence on 526 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 2: the body is going to be pretty much burned, right. 527 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: Not necessarily. Here's the beauty of it is that you know, 528 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: this is not like a cremation where you have bodies 529 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: that have been burned for a protracted period of time. 530 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: You're having turned coals and all those sorts of things. 531 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,240 Speaker 1: Did you know, Dave, that once a body is burned, 532 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 1: the exterior of the body, See how can I put this? 533 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: The exterior of the body will actually form almost a 534 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: hardened shell. Okay, with and again is quite ghastly, but 535 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: with the skin and the underlying subcutaneous fat, it'll it'll 536 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 1: almost harden to a certain extent, and you might not 537 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: be able to appreciate the injuries externally However, once you 538 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: open up that body, let's just say someone has been stabbed. 539 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: Did you know that you can still appreciate the wound 540 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: tract because once you open the body, so you reflect 541 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: the the the chest tissue for lack of a better term, 542 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: on the underside of the tissue, you can actually still 543 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: see like a slit like mark there that a knife 544 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: has passed through. You overlay that and you can track 545 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: that through it, passing through maybe between the ribs, you can. 546 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: It'll track through the organs because the organs are still 547 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: and depended upon how soon they get to the body, 548 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:04,720 Speaker 1: there will be areas of hemorrhage and the defect itself 549 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: that you'll be able to track through all the ways, 550 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 1: say through like the solid organs like a heart or 551 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 1: the lungs, and still be able to say, okay, this 552 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: is in fact a stab wound. Okay. Now, externally, because 553 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: of that kind of crust that's built up externally on 554 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,359 Speaker 1: the body, you can't really see it that well, if 555 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: you're very, very careful, you can in some circumstances. And 556 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 1: here's the other thing. Just because of the top of 557 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: a body is burned. And when I say top, I 558 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: mean like the top of the trunk, Okay, the top 559 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,240 Speaker 1: of the Torso just because that portion of the body 560 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: is burned extensively doesn't mean the lower half that's going 561 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: to be burned as much. Okay, this is very randomized 562 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: kind of thing. Even I've had bodies where people have 563 00:37:53,719 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: dumped gas on bodies and set them aflame. You will 564 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: sometimes that flame will just flash over and once the 565 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 1: accelerant is burned off, then then you're not going to 566 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: have a lot more damage done to the body. Okay, 567 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: post mortem, all right, And it's gruesome if somebody gets 568 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: gas splashed on them and they catch fire in life, 569 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:21,319 Speaker 1: but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about 570 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 1: the dead. Whereas if you have the upper portion of 571 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: the body, say overlying a fuel source like a mattress 572 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: or clothing or some kind of cloth or a wood, 573 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,360 Speaker 1: than that, because it again you have that fuel source 574 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 1: that's there that's constantly burning, that area of the body 575 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: will be more extensively burned. So you just have to 576 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,799 Speaker 1: be very very careful. And that's why it's important to 577 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 1: document where the bodies are at the scene so that 578 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: you can appreciate their relationship, the body's relationships to any 579 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: other kind of items that might be surrounding that body. 580 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 2: This is amazing what you are able to break down 581 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 2: from something that doesn't seem to have it. I want 582 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 2: to say this the right way. There is so much 583 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,359 Speaker 2: information that you bring to the table and talking about 584 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 2: a situation like this that I'm dumbfounded by what I've 585 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 2: never even thought of kind of thing. Because we know 586 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 2: we have a massive home, it's almost six thousand square 587 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 2: feet and is on fire that has been smoldering for 588 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 2: hours before it finally really takes off. We've got one 589 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,839 Speaker 2: man dead on the front yard, which, by the way, 590 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 2: I was noting his the nine one one call from 591 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 2: the neighbor. He actually called when he realized the smoke 592 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 2: was more intense than he had originally thought. And he's 593 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 2: getting closer to the home and as he gets in, 594 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 2: you can actually hear, according to the description, and we'll 595 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 2: find this out at trial, his description becomes more frantic 596 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 2: as he's relating this to nine one one about the fire. 597 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 2: And then he gets to the yard and he finds Keith, 598 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,600 Speaker 2: and he said that's when he freaks out, Oh my god, 599 00:39:55,640 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 2: there's blood, there's there's a dead body. You know, That's 600 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:03,440 Speaker 2: what the fire crews were and police were coming into. 601 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 2: They knew this is something more than just a big 602 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:10,239 Speaker 2: house on fire, and so I was wondering about, you know, 603 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:15,319 Speaker 2: the fire hoses. I maybe it might seem like I 604 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 2: don't care, but I was wondering about that when you 605 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 2: talked about the hoses would be drug right over the 606 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,479 Speaker 2: body because you got to get to the fire. There's 607 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,320 Speaker 2: more danger in there too. But it took them several 608 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,759 Speaker 2: hours before they could even actually go into the structure, 609 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 2: all the while knowing they probably have bodies inside. Joe, 610 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 2: do the fire crews as they go through the house 611 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 2: and they're putting out the fire, do they kind of 612 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 2: do a quick analysis of the structure of the building. 613 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 2: It determine whether or not you can come in and 614 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 2: look at what's left. What point does that decision made? 615 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well you will have to have there will 616 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: be a senior person with the fire service that will 617 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 1: walk through and they'll check the structural integrity of the 618 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 1: scene itself. And a little aside here I've had I've 619 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: had a rafter collapse on my head that was still 620 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: on fire. It had coals burning on top of it. 621 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: I got the back of my neck burned and as 622 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 1: kind of a joke, but I was greatly appreciative of it. 623 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,720 Speaker 1: At that time. I used to wear a hard hat 624 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: when I would go out one of the fire stations 625 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: that I was friends with. Those guys, they didn't actually 626 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: invite me over to eat every now and then when 627 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,800 Speaker 1: I was on duty. Uh, they gave me a h 628 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,920 Speaker 1: They gave me a fire helmet at one point, and 629 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: as it turned out, you know, now it's pretty common 630 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: practice if you go to a medical examiner's office, you'll 631 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 1: fire you'll find those kind of classic fire helmets that 632 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,920 Speaker 1: people think of, you know, and they'll be the badge 633 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,719 Speaker 1: on the front of will actually say medical examiner, now, 634 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 1: oh wow. And you know the heavier jackets that they wear, 635 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: those sorts of things. That's kind of common practice back 636 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,799 Speaker 1: in my day, early on in my career that that 637 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: didn't happen as much. So you you're you know, in 638 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,760 Speaker 1: a case like this, your safety is pre eminent because 639 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: you you know, if anybody is in there that is deceased, 640 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 1: you're not going to bring them back to life by 641 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: virtue of your presence. However, you can die because it's 642 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 1: a very unstable, dangerous environment, and you want to make 643 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 1: sure that it's safe when you go in there to 644 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 1: begin to process the scene. You know, before you're going 645 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 1: to remove anything. And here's another thing. When you have 646 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: bodies that are kind of semi rendered down as a 647 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: result of fire, all of the area that is approximating 648 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 1: the body is going to go into the bag as 649 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 1: well into into the body bag at the scene, and 650 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 1: when that is X rayed, you'll find nuts, screws, springs, 651 00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,319 Speaker 1: You'll find all kinds of stuff that's in there, and 652 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 1: you kind of have to make when you're looking at 653 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 1: the x ray, you're kind of having to make your 654 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: way through it and try to understand is this important, 655 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: is that something or is this within the body as 656 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 1: opposed to outside of the body, Because you know, with 657 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,680 Speaker 1: a case like this where you've you've already got evidence. 658 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: Can you imagine the shock of that neighbor. He's rolling up, 659 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,440 Speaker 1: he sees smoke, and he rolls up and here's a 660 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:27,120 Speaker 1: guy that's probably you know, leaned over the you know, 661 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 1: proverbial fence with and chatted you know with before, and 662 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 1: he's laying dead in the front yard. You know, you're 663 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 1: looking upon him and you're thinking, oh, my Lord in heaven, 664 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,280 Speaker 1: you know what what's happening. You know, at this moment 665 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,359 Speaker 1: in time. You never know what you're going to find 666 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 1: at a crime scene involving a fire. You never know 667 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 1: what you're going to find with the bodies. Because you're 668 00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: talking about gunshot womens. You can find a projectile in there. 669 00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking about Key's body right now. You've 670 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 1: got multiple gunshot wounds, So are there multiple projectiles? Well 671 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,720 Speaker 1: with the wife, is the projectile still in her body? 672 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 1: And where is it located? That would be essential. And 673 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,360 Speaker 1: I think some people would think, well, what's the purpose 674 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 1: of doing an X ray on a body that's been stabbed? 675 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 1: How do you know they've been stabbed, particularly in a 676 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,000 Speaker 1: fire scene. Oh and by the bye, if they are stabbed, 677 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:28,720 Speaker 1: guess what happens to blades? Many times blades chip, blades break. 678 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 1: I found the tips of knife of knives broken off 679 00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,160 Speaker 1: in spines. Before you know, you see that perfect little 680 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,799 Speaker 1: opaque triangle that's resting there, you know, in the in 681 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 1: the spine, and you're going to have to go in 682 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,719 Speaker 1: an autopsy and dissect out that vertebral body and retrieve, 683 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 1: retrieve that tip of that So there's a lot to 684 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,160 Speaker 1: be considered, and most importantly, I think here one of 685 00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: the assessments that you're going to do with the autopsy 686 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:05,200 Speaker 1: is were they alive? Were they alive when the fire started? 687 00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:08,480 Speaker 2: You know, how are you going to tell that? 688 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,839 Speaker 1: Joe, Oh, It's it's actually quite simple day tell the truth. 689 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,520 Speaker 1: That's actually one of the most simple things that we do. 690 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,319 Speaker 1: First off, there's two things. There's actually multiple, but I'll 691 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 1: just I'll try to keep it simple and brief. But 692 00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:31,880 Speaker 1: first off, the tissues within within the mouth, the fairynex, 693 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 1: going down the throat into the airway, you'll see them 694 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:41,320 Speaker 1: be highly irritated, obviously, and then you're thinking about taking 695 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:45,799 Speaker 1: on soot because every time you breathe in like that 696 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,319 Speaker 1: and you're in a smoking environment, you're going to take 697 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,400 Speaker 1: in those particulate bits and you'll find those again in 698 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,600 Speaker 1: the airway and certainly down into the lungs. The other 699 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:58,200 Speaker 1: thing that we do at autopsy is we run a 700 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 1: test called a carboxy human globin level, and it's something 701 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:05,640 Speaker 1: that you see with carbon monoxide poisoning. Well, carbon monoxide 702 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:11,160 Speaker 1: is a byproduct of a fire, and when you do 703 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,919 Speaker 1: the autopsy, just even when you draw the blood. Guess 704 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,919 Speaker 1: what color the blood is if there is, if there's 705 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:24,520 Speaker 1: carbon monoxide, it's pink. Think about the brightest artificially made 706 00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,440 Speaker 1: candy that's out there. It's that got that kind of 707 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:33,120 Speaker 1: weird pinkish, reddish hue to it, and that gets into 708 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,640 Speaker 1: the organs as well. Well. The only way that happens 709 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,400 Speaker 1: is if there's an uptake of oxygen or an uptake 710 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: of air, rather not oxygen but air in this environment 711 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: that's got carbon monoxide in it, so you're taking that 712 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,560 Speaker 1: on board. So there's multiple ways that we can tell 713 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:51,840 Speaker 1: if the individual was still in the land of the 714 00:46:51,880 --> 00:47:01,320 Speaker 1: living when they died. And you know, the interesting point 715 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,360 Speaker 1: here is this, and this is what we will eventually 716 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:11,240 Speaker 1: hopefully find out. First off, how much did these victims suffer? 717 00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:17,840 Speaker 1: What was their absolute cause of death? Was it a 718 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,319 Speaker 1: stab wound or was it a stab wound where they 719 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:27,480 Speaker 1: were left in the space slowly bleeding out all the 720 00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:31,000 Speaker 1: while breathing in the smoke that was coming up from 721 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:31,560 Speaker 1: the basement. 722 00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,480 Speaker 2: Joe, the way you've just phrased all that is so important. 723 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:40,480 Speaker 2: A wrongful death lawsuit has been filed by the maternal 724 00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:46,120 Speaker 2: grandfather of Sophia Canaro follow me here, friends. Paul Canaro 725 00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:48,560 Speaker 2: has been charged in the killings and is awaiting trial 726 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,760 Speaker 2: after six years. We're now looking at possibly next March 727 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,640 Speaker 2: before this goes to trial. He is the sole defendant 728 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,719 Speaker 2: in the wrongful death lawsuit filed on behalf of the 729 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:03,880 Speaker 2: estate of Sophia Canaro by Vlassis Coreedes, her maternal grandfather. 730 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,680 Speaker 2: The suit is seeking damages from Paul Canaro on behalf 731 00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:12,440 Speaker 2: of the girl's estate. How is that possible? Keith, Jennifer 732 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 2: and Jesse Canaro died instantly, but an autopsy now shows 733 00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:21,440 Speaker 2: Sophia survived for nine hours after the attack before she 734 00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,719 Speaker 2: died of smoke inhalation. And the lawyer that files is 735 00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,359 Speaker 2: filing the wrongful death lawsuit says that's why they are 736 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,239 Speaker 2: filing it this way, because Sophia survived her parents, she 737 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:35,320 Speaker 2: inherited their estates and died into state, passing the estates 738 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,759 Speaker 2: to her grandparents, and Vlassis Coreedes has standing to now 739 00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:45,239 Speaker 2: bring this claim of wrongful death against Paul Canaro. So 740 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:49,480 Speaker 2: now we know, while Keith, Jennifer and Jesse Canaro all 741 00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:54,680 Speaker 2: died instantly, little Sophia lived for nine hours and died 742 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:55,760 Speaker 2: of smokinghalation. 743 00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,560 Speaker 1: There's so much more left here with this case, to 744 00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,640 Speaker 1: be able to unpacked, to be able to understand, and 745 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,800 Speaker 1: to be able to put together this mosaic that seems 746 00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:10,640 Speaker 1: very very complex. And you know, to kind of paraphrase 747 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:16,200 Speaker 1: a quote from the defense attorney that is handling this 748 00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:21,960 Speaker 1: case for Paul brother Paul, this is a dump truck 749 00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,640 Speaker 1: load of forensic evidence and there are terabytes of it. 750 00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:31,200 Speaker 1: The question is what kind of tale will be told 751 00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:37,080 Speaker 1: in the New Jersey murder Mansion. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 752 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,560 Speaker 1: and this is Body Backs