Speaker 1: Nature versus nurture. There have always been questions about which
Speaker 1: one contributes more to who we all become as adults.
Speaker 1: But imagine a future where the way you're raised is
Speaker 1: based on your essential nature, where your parents believe your
Speaker 1: genetic makeup is already pointing you to be a musician,
Speaker 1: or a doctor or a math professor, and they're just
Speaker 1: paving the way. All of this is based on the
Speaker 1: results of a DNA test that you've got just hours
Speaker 1: after your birth. In China, that future is happening now.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Prognosis, Bloomberg's podcast about the intersection of health
Speaker 1: and technology and the unexpected places it's taking us. I'm
Speaker 1: your host, Michelle fay Cortes. Throughout this season, you've heard
Speaker 1: about all the ways the proliferation of healthcare data, especially
Speaker 1: from genetic testing, is creating opportunities and challenges. That includes
Speaker 1: privacy concerns about who gets the information and how it's used.
Speaker 1: But that all out embrace of DNA testing is perhaps
Speaker 1: even more striking in China. This year alone, nearly four
Speaker 1: million Chinese are expected to take part in genetic testing
Speaker 1: to learn about their families and their health risks. But
Speaker 1: they're also pushing the boundaries of what these test results
Speaker 1: mean and what they can tell us about ourselves and
Speaker 1: our futures. From the very beginning of our lives. There
Speaker 1: are questions about what is scientifically possible or provable. This
Speaker 1: leading edge of DNA determinism is happening in a country
Speaker 1: where the very concept of data privacy and what consumers
Speaker 1: want and expect is vastly different from Western countries. For
Speaker 1: this episode, Bloomberg's Jan hob reports with April Ma and
Speaker 1: Danielle Away across three cities in mainland China and Hong Kong.
Speaker 1: Here's one with the story. This jogging track in a
Speaker 1: sprawl in Beijing Park has become a regular hangout for
Speaker 1: Lou Fey Long. The park overlooks the lake and it's
Speaker 1: nestled among blocks of residential high rises. Well, I usually
Speaker 1: tried to get out here to this park a few
Speaker 1: times a week to go running. The thirty six year
Speaker 1: old investor in Chinese web apps has made his workout
Speaker 1: here a priority after getting a genetics test online earlier
Speaker 1: this year. You know what, I have family history of diabetes.
Speaker 1: My father and my aunt both heaven and need insulent
Speaker 1: to survive. I do have high blush sugar, so I
Speaker 1: wanted to see if I was also at risk through
Speaker 1: a genetics test to the test indicated he's four times
Speaker 1: more prone to diabetes than the average person, so he
Speaker 1: changed his diet and began following the exercise regimen that
Speaker 1: came with the test results and by bidding into that
Speaker 1: test tube, blue Joint, China's DNA testing boom. China's consumer
Speaker 1: genetics market reached sales of about one point four billion
Speaker 1: dollars in and it's expected to grow nearly twenty percent
Speaker 1: a year through that's according to Research and Markets dot com.
Speaker 1: China is one of the fastest growing markets globally for
Speaker 1: DNA tests, and there's dozens of companies to choose from.
Speaker 1: There's even a twenty three and me similar sounding company,
Speaker 1: twenty three mo funk. They range from big outfits like
Speaker 1: b GI Genomics that's reportedly the world's largest genetics research center,
Speaker 1: to lots of small startups like one Gene and gene Box.
Speaker 1: That company offers a very basic genome test for less
Speaker 1: than a dollar fifty cents. Yep, that's right, one dollar
Speaker 1: and fifty cents shipping included in justin o those three
Speaker 1: years nearly sixty million Chinese will have given a sample
Speaker 1: of their DNA by taking a consumer genetic test. That's
Speaker 1: according to a Yeo, a Beijing research firm. The country
Speaker 1: is only beginning to grapple with a number of big
Speaker 1: questions like who has access to all that DNA data,
Speaker 1: how's it being used? And what happens when an authoritarian
Speaker 1: government potentially has access to the genetic blueprint for millions
Speaker 1: of its citizens. And the thorny issues over health data
Speaker 1: protection are surfacing as China becomes something of a wild
Speaker 1: West for genetics. That's thanks to a rapid and mostly
Speaker 1: unchecked growth. Ethical debates were raised just this year after
Speaker 1: Chinese scientists put human brain genes into monkeys and induced
Speaker 1: mental illness in other gene edited primates. But the Chinese
Speaker 1: genetics experiment that caused the loudest international outcry was scientist
Speaker 1: Hagen quies gene editing of the embryos of twin girls
Speaker 1: last year. He said he edited their DNA to give
Speaker 1: them immunity to HIV infection. The scientific community condemned the
Speaker 1: experiment and called it unethical, including Chinese scientists. Now, this
Speaker 1: kind of gene surgery is banned in so many countries.
Speaker 1: Medical and scientific community are very upset about this. They
Speaker 1: are outraged China set his work violated government rules. Still,
Speaker 1: the controversy exposed the lack of oversight in the country's
Speaker 1: genetics field. There's a sense that the government doesn't want
Speaker 1: to impose too many regulations because it wants the industry
Speaker 1: to leap frog advances in the US and Europe. There's
Speaker 1: almost no regulation of the consumer market for DNA testing either.
Speaker 1: That makes it possible for Chinese companies to give out
Speaker 1: test results that go beyond what American companies would be allowed.
Speaker 1: This genetics boom is also happening against the backdrop of
Speaker 1: China stepping up mass surveillance of its citizens. Video camists
Speaker 1: are posted on most city blocks, millions of them, as
Speaker 1: China masses big databases of information on its own people.
Speaker 1: There are questions how the growing consumer genetics industry might
Speaker 1: feed into that. And if you ask Chinese consumers about
Speaker 1: protecting their genetic code, what makes you you, most will shrug.
Speaker 1: This seems especially true among the many new parents who
Speaker 1: get their offspring sequenced in hopes of discovering innate skills
Speaker 1: and future potential. Supposedly written in their DNA. Tama Joe
Speaker 1: Sao Ying is playing with her two year old son
Speaker 1: in their Shanghai home. Days after little bai Ye was born,
Speaker 1: his mom decided to have his DNA analyzed. Testing of
Speaker 1: babies in the womb and as newborns is one of
Speaker 1: the fastest growing sectors of the genomics business. Here what
Speaker 1: ina I did it for two reasons. One is to
Speaker 1: know about his talents in the future so that I
Speaker 1: can sell it direction for him. And then I wanted
Speaker 1: to know about his host risks, whether he has any
Speaker 1: genetic diseases, so that I can take preventive measures tell
Speaker 1: you where I am. And with one point four billion
Speaker 1: people and competition intents for schools and jobs, parents are
Speaker 1: trying to give their little prints or princess every advantage possible.
Speaker 1: The company salesman pitched that the test can show whether
Speaker 1: genetically her day's old son is gifted in arts, music,
Speaker 1: or math. So what did the genetic crystal ball tell her?
Speaker 1: Travel ball pen The test results show that my son
Speaker 1: has talent in the arts, especially in music. It says
Speaker 1: he's strong in creativity and weak in sports. I think
Speaker 1: it's very accurate. He's two years old now, and I
Speaker 1: have noticed that he can recognize us song after hearing
Speaker 1: it for the first time. If I asked him to
Speaker 1: harm the song, he can also do it into I'm
Speaker 1: surprised before the sales rep swabbed Little by his mouth
Speaker 1: with a cotton tip. His mother remembers signing paperwork. She
Speaker 1: thinks the paper might have been a disclosure for a woman.
Speaker 1: If it's a piece of paper with writing on both sides,
Speaker 1: it contained information about what your DNA is used for.
Speaker 1: I didn't look at it carefully, so I don't know
Speaker 1: if there is any mention in the document that it
Speaker 1: can only be used for research and not for other purposes.
Speaker 1: I didn't really pay attention. Joe, a former bank employee,
Speaker 1: sounds casual about protecting her son's genetic blueprint, and her
Speaker 1: nonchalance is in a way a reflection that Joe doesn't
Speaker 1: think that she has any real say over how the
Speaker 1: data may be passed around or used, or whether the
Speaker 1: government might one day access it. Jake don't see as
Speaker 1: an individual citizen, it's beyond our ability to control it.
Speaker 1: We have little power. Joe and many other Chinese don't
Speaker 1: think about privacy and the safeguarding a private data in
Speaker 1: the same way as Westerners, and they're likely to view
Speaker 1: the government's reach into their lives as benign. Example, why
Speaker 1: because we are in China. If the government obtains the
Speaker 1: data and uses it for something, we don't seem to
Speaker 1: have the right to oppose it. But I believe if
Speaker 1: our government is doing it, it must be doing it
Speaker 1: for a good cost and will protect our personal data.
Speaker 1: Even some Chinese law experts share the view that government
Speaker 1: access to individual data is not a big deal. Since
Speaker 1: the Indians, I think that when the state collects its
Speaker 1: citizens genetic information has a different purpose. Let's leaves shall
Speaker 1: know she's an associate professor who teaches classes in genetics
Speaker 1: law at Peaking University, one of China's top schools palamont In.
Speaker 1: Commercial companies that are providing genetic testing services are going
Speaker 1: after the bottom line to make a profit, but the
Speaker 1: state is collecting the data for scientific research and for
Speaker 1: the cure of diseases. So personally I trust the state
Speaker 1: more because they don't have any commercial intentions. Such an open,
Speaker 1: unskeptical embrace of an authoritarian government's agenda main leave Westerners
Speaker 1: scratching their heads. But let's step back for a second.
Speaker 1: The different cultural approaches to privacy comes down to the
Speaker 1: word itself. The Chinese word for privacy zine, and the
Speaker 1: characters that make up the word carry the connotations of
Speaker 1: hidden secrets. Tiffany Lee, who is a Resident Fellow at
Speaker 1: Yale Law Schools Information Society Project, points out that cultural
Speaker 1: norms around privacy on the mainland are often more about
Speaker 1: protecting a person from shame rather than the protection of
Speaker 1: individual liberty. The Chinese people are more open or less
Speaker 1: sensitive about the privacy UH issue. F they are able
Speaker 1: to treade privacy, say for convenience for uh sifety for efficiency,
Speaker 1: in a lot of cases, they're willing to do that.
Speaker 1: That's Robin Lee, the founder of search engine bai Do.
Speaker 1: His comments at a forum in Beijing last year were
Speaker 1: widely criticized online by his countrymen, a sign that attitudes
Speaker 1: may be shifting still. How Chinese approach data protection is
Speaker 1: often shaped by having grown up under a communist regime
Speaker 1: and within a Confucian culture that teaches the government will
Speaker 1: always enact policies for the common good. Contrast, that would
Speaker 1: the US new data protection law that came into effect
Speaker 1: last year that forced multinationals to scramble to comply. Its
Speaker 1: specifically outlines that the protection of personal data is a
Speaker 1: human right. China is also taking measures to better govern
Speaker 1: how genetic data is handled. New rules that went into
Speaker 1: effect this month layout protections for consumers. They call for
Speaker 1: companies to inform customers about how their DNA data will
Speaker 1: be protected and give them the right to opt out
Speaker 1: at any time. The good thing is that we see
Speaker 1: that China try to implement this international standard, which is
Speaker 1: the so called prior informed consent for the use or
Speaker 1: preservation collection of the genetic data. That's g On Lee.
Speaker 1: He's an associate law professor at the Chinese University of
Speaker 1: Hong Kong and he studies cyber law and privacy issues
Speaker 1: on the mainland. The government is trying to send a
Speaker 1: message to the market that is going to play tough
Speaker 1: for the violation of all this genetic information misuse. I
Speaker 1: do expect there will be some benchmark cases, probably in
Speaker 1: the first two to three years. Last year, the government
Speaker 1: handed down finds the multinational farmer company Astra Zeneca and
Speaker 1: five domestic firms for sharing DNA samples or genetic data
Speaker 1: with other organizations in China and outside the country. The
Speaker 1: new rules prohibit the sale of genetic data except for
Speaker 1: scientific research and puts restrictions on foreign companies. But there's
Speaker 1: one provision of the regulation that should raise concerns. And
Speaker 1: the other very prominently provision that I see from this
Speaker 1: slow is that they think that the government can have
Speaker 1: access to this genetic data. So for the purpose of
Speaker 1: public health, national security, and um public interests, the government
Speaker 1: can access these preserved genetic data. And it's actually not
Speaker 1: very clear. So what is the purpose of public health,
Speaker 1: national security and also public interests? National security can actually
Speaker 1: define very browth that might include everything. So what kind
Speaker 1: of genetic information could be valuable to the government. The
Speaker 1: coffin might have much more information about your family relations
Speaker 1: or your entstry, or what you did before and even
Speaker 1: for for example, if anyone have any illegmate child that's
Speaker 1: easy to track. So if anyone or if any entity
Speaker 1: has access to that kind of data base or unlimited
Speaker 1: unbalanced access to that kind of data, that would be
Speaker 1: ver very dangerous. Lee believes the government has huge databases
Speaker 1: or can get access to all sorts of information on
Speaker 1: its citizens financial records, did you pay your bills on time?
Speaker 1: Digital payments? How many luxury watches, did you buy speech
Speaker 1: and online activity on the internet. What if all that
Speaker 1: information could be combined on any one individual. Well, there
Speaker 1: is a plan to merge some of that. Some provinces
Speaker 1: have begun to implement what will become a nationwide social
Speaker 1: credit system that melds personal financial data with behavior. Under
Speaker 1: this new system, every citizen is ranked if you owe
Speaker 1: money or don't pay your taxes, you run red lights,
Speaker 1: or don't pick up after your dog, then points are deducted.
Speaker 1: Good behavior and deeds like donating blood and money improve
Speaker 1: your score. Those with low credit scores may lose access
Speaker 1: to benefits or services, while those with good credit scores
Speaker 1: are given priority and access. Already, Chinese have been prevented
Speaker 1: from buying plane and rail tickets because of their social
Speaker 1: credit scores. The system is still in its early days,
Speaker 1: and there's still debate whether the project is aimed at
Speaker 1: increasing surveillance or if it's China's unique way to incentivize
Speaker 1: citizens to uphold laws. Many Chinese are actually in favor
Speaker 1: of the system. They say it promotes good behavior and
Speaker 1: engenders trust. With that unfolding on the ground, Lee is
Speaker 1: concerned what will happen as d NA is thrown into
Speaker 1: the mix. There is a possibility that all these different
Speaker 1: kinds of a personal data, including the biological one and
Speaker 1: digital one, will be connected together. Um. But we have
Speaker 1: no idea how that combination will be used against you
Speaker 1: because the technology is still developing. For most of the people,
Speaker 1: I don't think they will feel very comfortable, um, if
Speaker 1: they have that kind of information accessed by any other
Speaker 1: parties other than yourselves. Um. Not to mention that a
Speaker 1: lot of information actually is not known to you yourselves.
Speaker 1: We were hard pressed to find experts in China raising
Speaker 1: concerns on the government's potential access to genetic data. That
Speaker 1: may be partly because the consumer genetics industry is still
Speaker 1: relatively small and developing in the country. Well, I've never
Speaker 1: thought about how genetic testing can be used to maintain
Speaker 1: a stable society. That's lea shall known of Peaking University. Again,
Speaker 1: she's trying to figure out the critics, is ms and
Speaker 1: reservations that Westerners have about the Chinese government or police
Speaker 1: getting their hands on individual DNA information. How would that
Speaker 1: be possible? Would they find out through gene tests which
Speaker 1: individuals have a genetic mutation that shows they're more likely
Speaker 1: to raise a rebellion. Is that what people in the
Speaker 1: West think that the Chinese government is going to predict
Speaker 1: which people are going to cause chaos through genetic testing
Speaker 1: and then put them under higher surveillance. Actually, some critics
Speaker 1: say some version of that scenario is already playing out.
Speaker 1: The United Nations and the United States say more than
Speaker 1: one million weekers are being held enforced re education camps.
Speaker 1: There are Muslim ethnic group that's under surveillance. China says
Speaker 1: it's fighting separatism there in Cindio, this region of western China.
Speaker 1: UH the authorities are requiring people from the age of
Speaker 1: twelve to six to all be submitting the d n
Speaker 1: A samples um to be put in a searchable DNA database.
Speaker 1: That's Maya Wong, a senior researcher for Human Rights Watch
Speaker 1: focused on China. The organization says it has documented that
Speaker 1: Chinese police have collected forty million DNA entries from ordinary
Speaker 1: Chinese not connected to crimes. The nonprofit says the nation's
Speaker 1: Ministry of Public Security started building a searchable national DNA
Speaker 1: database in the early two thousands as part of a
Speaker 1: police project known as the Golden Shield. A lot of
Speaker 1: these AI systems then feed into the next layer of surveillance,
Speaker 1: which is the use of big data programs by the
Speaker 1: police to track monitor people's relationships, where they go and ins,
Speaker 1: for example, where this surveillance is most intrusive and visible.
Speaker 1: That information is also used to um control people's movement
Speaker 1: and also to be analyzed who put certain people who
Speaker 1: are politically untrustworthy into political inductritional Asian camps um So
Speaker 1: in that context, the collection of DNA is problematic because
Speaker 1: it is part of a bigger program of mass surveillance
Speaker 1: and gathering big data of people with the explicit purpose
Speaker 1: of social control. With d NA, police can identify who's
Speaker 1: related to whom once an individual is flagged as suspicious
Speaker 1: or a threat. She says, Entire families could also be marked.
Speaker 1: She says the biological information being collected here could be
Speaker 1: used to isolate a group of people and discriminate against them.
Speaker 1: China's Foreign Affairs Ministry didn't comment on our questions about
Speaker 1: DNA being gathered in Shinjang. At a recent press briefing,
Speaker 1: the Foreign Ministry spokesman said the camps are vocation training
Speaker 1: centers that counter terrorism, and with so many consumer genetic
Speaker 1: companies collecting DNA data. There's concern that Chinese government could
Speaker 1: compel companies to turn data over with impunity. The rules
Speaker 1: allow for the Chinese government to basically access data without
Speaker 1: any procedures or legal oversight or any kind of you know,
Speaker 1: restrictions on what they can access and what they can
Speaker 1: take um and that has implications well for one billion people,
Speaker 1: but also some of these companies also work abroad. Here
Speaker 1: at a busy crosswalk in the manufacturing hub of Shenzen,
Speaker 1: the surveillance of ordinary citizens is on public display. Across
Speaker 1: the street is a gigantic TV monitor that displays the
Speaker 1: photos of people who have gotten caught jaywalking. If the
Speaker 1: software can identify a jaywalker, they're assessed to find that
Speaker 1: sent us a text message to their phone. The city
Speaker 1: is also home to the headquarters of genetics Firmwigian, the
Speaker 1: popular consumer genetics testing company started into fourteen and has
Speaker 1: tested the DNA samples of about three hundred thousand users.
Speaker 1: Company CEO Chung Gung welcomes the country's new rules on
Speaker 1: managing genetic data and says they won't disrupt business. The
Speaker 1: genetic data Regien collects from customers is only being used
Speaker 1: inside regien. We have not and will not share such
Speaker 1: data with other organizations. Chun says the government hasn't come
Speaker 1: knocking on its doors about the DNA data it's been collecting.
Speaker 1: And what if the government ever asked for the data,
Speaker 1: whether it's a tech company or genetic testing company, we
Speaker 1: may have to provide data and situations where it's required,
Speaker 1: but so far there isn't an order on this matter.
Speaker 1: If there's a regulation requiring companies to do it, there's
Speaker 1: no way a company can refuse. One very significant project
Speaker 1: between the government and a genetics consumer company is unfolding
Speaker 1: here in Shenzen. This hub of more than thirteen million
Speaker 1: people is also home to be Gi Genomics, one of
Speaker 1: the world's largest genome sequencing companies. The firm is also
Speaker 1: the biggest provider of prenatal genetic testing in China. The
Speaker 1: publicly listed company is also charged with running China's National
Speaker 1: Gene Bank, a huge database and repository of DNA and
Speaker 1: biological samples from millions of Chinese across the country, and
Speaker 1: it aspires to be the biggest such center in the world.
Speaker 1: China spent nearly one billion dollars to fund the first
Speaker 1: phase and started the Gene Bank for health and disease research.
Speaker 1: Under the new rules, there's a high chance that no
Speaker 1: one will ever know when and how the government or
Speaker 1: law enforcement might invoke public health, national security, or public
Speaker 1: social interest reasons to access the genetic data stored there.
Speaker 1: The rules don't outline a process for checks on the
Speaker 1: government's access. B g I said customers data belonged to
Speaker 1: the those clients and it respects national laws. In other
Speaker 1: Chinese cities, some private genetics companies are working with law enforcement.
Speaker 1: A handful of companies advertised as a selling point that
Speaker 1: they share children's DNA data with police. Chinese police launched
Speaker 1: a database in two thousand nine to collect DNA information
Speaker 1: of children. The program is aimed at preventing child kidnapping
Speaker 1: and trafficking. Joe is a mom of two kids and
Speaker 1: says she wouldn't hesitate to add her children's genetic blueprint
Speaker 1: to police database. Just if your kid does go missing
Speaker 1: and there are still traffickers out there, that's pretty scary.
Speaker 1: We are unlimited as parents to protect our kids, and
Speaker 1: if there are other institutions and the government that are
Speaker 1: doing this together for our children, I'm okay with it.
Speaker 1: Going to launch of heights do this okay, though the
Speaker 1: government's latest regulation on the Management of Genetic material addresses
Speaker 1: other Chinese fears. The provision band's foreign companies from collecting
Speaker 1: and storing the DNA of Chinese in the country or
Speaker 1: sending Chinese data overseas. After China's f d A find
Speaker 1: the company's last year from mishandling genetic data, articles circulated
Speaker 1: online that the DNA that were illegally exported could be
Speaker 1: used by foreign entities to harm Chinese. Here again is
Speaker 1: Lou fe Long. He's the web app investor we first
Speaker 1: met on the jogging track at the beginning of our story.
Speaker 1: He's college educated and highly informed. He sees the pitfall
Speaker 1: of Chinese DNA in the wrong hands. Larger problem is
Speaker 1: if an organization and gets hold up these genes of
Speaker 1: our ethnicity or of Chinese people, they might be able
Speaker 1: to extract from it where are people are different from
Speaker 1: others and then target those vulnerabilities. In Beijing, seven year
Speaker 1: old r curator Jung Tang Wawin is working in the studio.
Speaker 1: He and his family members have all given samples for
Speaker 1: genetic tests because they wanted to dig into their health risks.
Speaker 1: He's among the minority of consumers who's actually given some
Speaker 1: thought to genetic data protection. He imagines the future in
Speaker 1: which the government could use DNA to dictate professions and
Speaker 1: life choices in I'm worried that if the government has
Speaker 1: control over genetic information, this data will be incorporated into
Speaker 1: each person's idea. Different groups will be separated by their
Speaker 1: genetic information. His fears may not be as paranoid as
Speaker 1: they sound. Chinese genetic testing companies now routinely give out
Speaker 1: results that tell customers if they're at risk for depression
Speaker 1: or mental disorders. Parents test their newborns to see if
Speaker 1: they're likely to suffer from poor retention and memory. Yet,
Speaker 1: despite those fears, John is determined to call valuable information
Speaker 1: from his own DNA now before private companies or the
Speaker 1: government does. He says everyone should have health data on
Speaker 1: themselves and be able to enjoy the lighter side of
Speaker 1: it too, like knowing if your lineage can be traced
Speaker 1: back to an ancient emperor. So Nah, I know it
Speaker 1: all comes with a price. There's no such thing as
Speaker 1: absolute privacy. It just depends on the value of the information.
Speaker 1: So I choose to overlook it because I'm after the
Speaker 1: health information and the entertainment from the testing. I have
Speaker 1: no control over the privacy of the information, and it's
Speaker 1: small proactive to get the results now wait for the
Speaker 1: day it will be accessed anyway. What this millennial's approach
Speaker 1: to data privacy is both fatalistic and proactive at the
Speaker 1: same time. If he were in the US, he might
Speaker 1: be among those selling their DNA data in exchange for
Speaker 1: gift cards, cryptocurrency, or shares to any number of companies
Speaker 1: looking to buy it. Whatever China's consumer genetics market evolves into,
Speaker 1: it will be shaped by the fears, needs, and cultural
Speaker 1: values of more than a billion Chinese consumers, and there's
Speaker 1: a good chance it will look nothing like what we
Speaker 1: could ever imagine. Stay tuned, and that's it for the
Speaker 1: second season of Prognosis. We hope you enjoyed hearing about
Speaker 1: all the promise and privacy issues that are swirling round
Speaker 1: healthcare data. We still want to hear from you, especially
Speaker 1: if you have a story about healthcare in the US
Speaker 1: or around the world. Find me on Twitter at aa
Speaker 1: Cortes or email me m Cortes at Bloomberg dot net.
Speaker 1: If you were a fan of this episode, please take
Speaker 1: a moment to rate and review us. It really helps
Speaker 1: new listeners find the show and don't forget to subscribe.
Speaker 1: This episode is produced by Lindsay Cratterwell. Our story editor
Speaker 1: was Rick Shine. Special thanks to mung Ling Huang and
Speaker 1: Drew Armstrong. Francesca Leavia as head of Bloomberg Podcasts. Thanks
Speaker 1: and we'll see you next time.