WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 60 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.359 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:13.440 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:15.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.960 --> 0:00:20.119 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:33.760 can make your own decisions. Uh, it could happen. Here 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:38.920 is the podcast that you're listening to. I'm Robert Evans, 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:42.879 the person that you're listening to, and one of the 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:46.159 people who does this podcast. Boy, what a what a 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:51.600 glorious introduction that was. Let me also introduce some human 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:55.120 beings who you might know. First, we have Chris and 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:59.160 and we have James. Are are our correspondence in the 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:04.360 field joining us today. Also is James's Spanish Civil War 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:08.880 era moson the gaunt YEP. That's right. Yeah, I'm very 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:11.360 happy it's joining us. It's going to make contribution throughout 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:16.760 the episode. Just gonna It's an antique bolt action rifle 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:21.119 served in three world wars. That's right. Yeah, and it's 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:24.200 about too, it's about to kick off. Yeah, this one 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:27.040 now which it might it might be it might be 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:31.040 two in the alcolumn for the most in the gun. Yeah, 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:34.080 it's it's it's it's had a it's served a mixed bag. 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:40.880 Um yea. Anyway, we're recording this the day of the elections, 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:45.399 so everybody's having a horrible one. Um yeah, I'm having 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.440 a firearm. Yeah, yeah, I did. I'm still hoping my 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:53.200 my Tech nine comes in before Oregon votes on its 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.880 next ballot measure. Anyway, Um, today I wanted to talk 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:01.680 a little bit about something that I've been thinking about 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:06.560 kind of constantly, which is, um it's called effective altruism. 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:10.200 And it's the short end of this is that like 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:16.440 it is a style of thinking about charitable giving that 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:20.640 Elon Musk in particular has recently highlighted as like how 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:25.040 he thinks about things. It's very popular with the billionaire set, 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.800 who are who are deeply invested in getting people to 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:32.040 think that they're saving the world, right, Um, the folks 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:35.280 who want to be seen as like looking ahead and 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:39.040 and and set protecting the future of mankind and saving 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:42.000 the world, um, but not doing it through things like 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:46.400 paying you know, more taxes and supporting you know less 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.600 money being in politics and and all that kind of jazz, 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:52.239 like not not anything that would would actually harm their 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:56.440 their personal ability to exercise power. So it's gotten kind 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:59.680 of attacked recently because it's associated with guys like Musk 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:02.320 and but as he is markedly less popular now than 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:07.600 he was let's say, ten years ago. Um, But I wanted, Yeah, 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:11.000 I wanted to talk because effective altruism, which is an 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:14.680 actual movement, there's like organizations that espouse this. There's hundreds 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:17.480 of millions of dollars in charitable giving that gets handed 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.639 out under the ages of effective altruism. And as it 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:23.240 heads up, like most of it's fine, like most of 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:25.800 its charities to like get let out of water and 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:29.480 stuff like. It's not like effective altruism is not comprehensively 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.519 some sort of like scam by the wealthy. It's more 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:38.120 of a an honest theory about how charitable giving ought 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.280 to work that has been adopted by the hyper wealthiest 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:44.160 justification for fucked up ship and married to something called 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:46.160 long term is um, which we will be talking about 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:47.960 in a little bit. But I want to talk about 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:50.880 where the concept of effective altruism comes from. If you 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:54.200 read articles about this thing. Most people who study it 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.080 will say that it kind of This got started as 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:59.920 a modern movement in nineteen seventy one with an austra 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:04.240 Ellian philosopher named Peter Singer, and Singer wrote an article 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:08.240 titled Famine, Affluence and Morality. Um. I think it was 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:11.440 actually published in nineteen seventy two. I don't know one 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:13.520 of the two seventy one or seventy two, And and 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:17.720 the essay basically argued that there's no difference morally between 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:20.440 your obligation to help a person dying on the street 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:22.159 in front of your house, Like the dude gets hit 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:23.760 by a car in front of your house, you are 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:26.440 not more morally obligated to help him than you are 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:30.400 morally obligated to help people who are dying in Syria, 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:36.200 you know. Um. And obviously, like there's a a version 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:38.520 of truth to that, which is that we're all responsible 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:41.320 for each other, and internationalism is the only actual path 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:43.359 away from the nightmare. And when we do things like 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:48.080 ignore authoritarians massacring their people, it inevitably comes back to 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:53.040 affect us and like fuel the growth of an authoritarian nightmare. Domestically, 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:57.839 that is very true, um, But also there's a fundamental 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:00.359 silliness in it because one reason why there is a 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:02.680 moral difference between helping a person dying in the street 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:04.800 in front of you and somebody who's in danger in 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:07.840 I don't know, southern China is that, like, you can 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.560 immediately help the person in front of your house, right, 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:12.800 like if somebody gets hit, but you have the ability 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:16.039 to immediately render life saving eight, it's actually quite difficult 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:19.000 to help somebody who is, for example, getting shot at 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:22.080 by the government uh in Tibet, right Like, not that 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:24.920 you don't don't have a moral responsibility to that person, 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:29.440 but your moral responsibility to actually immediately take action when 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:32.919 somebody is bleeding out is higher than your responsibility to 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:35.080 try to figure out how to help people in distant 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.640 parts of the globe. Um, this is more nuanced than 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:43.200 I think a lot of especially like rich assholes like 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:46.520 to It's more nuanced than like the the I shouldn't 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:49.640 say rich assholes. What what's the problem with this is 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:52.120 that it's the this is the kind of revelation like 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:54.960 when you start talking this way that that feeds really 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:58.400 well into a fucking ted talk. It it's a perfect 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:01.560 fix for that morality. Whereas the reality is like a 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:04.120 lot more nuanced where and number one, it's also like, 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:06.880 well that the kind of help that you would render 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:08.599 to somebody who's been hit by a car in front 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:11.200 of your house is very different and requires really different 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:13.320 resources than the kind of help you would give people 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.719 in say, again like Syria, who are being murdered by 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:19.000 their government. Right, if somebody gets hit by a car 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:20.400 in front of your house, you run out with a 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:22.719 fucking tourniquet and a bleed kit and you call nine 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.200 one one, Right, those are the resources that you can 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:29.680 immediately use. If Buthar al Assad is firing poison gas 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:35.880 at protesters in you know, Aleppo, well your your stop. 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:37.760 The bleed kit is not going to help with that, 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:40.000 one way or the other. Right, a very different set 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:44.320 of resources are necessary. Um, So it's it's foolish to 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:48.440 compare them anyway. Singer did um and his essay was 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:50.720 a big hit. It's often called like a sleeper hit 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:53.240 for for young people who are kind of getting into 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:58.120 the you know, the charity industrial complex, um or at 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.320 least we're considering it. I found an interview with one 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:04.039 named Julia Wise, who currently works at the Center for 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:09.600 Effective altruism um, and she was a started out as 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:11.080 a social work, like to give you an idea of 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:12.480 the kind of people who got into this. When she 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:16.520 read Weiss's article, Um, she was a social worker, she 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:19.160 kind of fell in love with the concept. And when 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.520 it started becoming a thing, and like the seventies and eighties, 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:26.120 it was, as she described quote, a bunch of philosophers 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:28.360 and their friends and nobody had a bunch of money. 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:31.320 So it was also more when Singer put it out, 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:34.320 kind of a a wave, like a way of people 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:37.160 kind of debating how to think about charity, which is 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:41.160 is fine. People should always be like exploring stuff like that. 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:42.680 So it's it's not I don't want to be like 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:46.200 going after Singer too well, I do a little bit 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:50.520 um because Singer after kind of his movement has a 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:53.360 couple of decades to grow, winds up doing a Ted 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.560 talk Um, and the Ted talk winds up kind of 0:07:56.600 --> 0:08:02.080 electrifying a very specific chunk of the American techno set um. 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:05.240 And you can see kind of in in some of 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:08.600 the writing on this, like the way in which his 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:12.480 talking about sort of the morality of charity has gotten 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.600 flattened over the years quote which is the better thing 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:17.679 to do to provide a guide dog to one blind 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.760 American or cure two thousand people of blindness and developing 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:24.680 countries um, which is like, I don't know both. There's 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:28.840 resources to do both. Um. We Again, if you, for 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:31.040 an example, in the United States, were to tacks the 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:34.440 billionaire class and corporations a lot more, you could provide 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:37.600 that blind person in the United States, uh with with 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:41.040 free healthcare in a way that many countries do. Um. 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:44.520 And we could also continue or even expand charitable giving, 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:46.200 maybe if we were to do stuff like spend less 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:48.920 money on our military. Again, it's like a false choice, 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:51.640 like it's worth but but of course it's It's because 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:53.839 the reason this choice is there is because they're thinking 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:57.440 about they're thinking about helping people purely in the form 0:08:57.640 --> 0:09:01.560 of like nobless obliged charity. Right, They're they're thinking about 0:09:01.559 --> 0:09:04.559 periods like rich like things that get improved when rich 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.880 people put money into them. Um. Yeah, so obviously we 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:11.400 should help you know, one of these groups before the 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:14.440 other because it's more effective and yeahda YadA YadA. Yeah. Yeah, Well, 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:16.160 and I think I think that was one of the 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:18.679 things that like the there there's there's a second way 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:20.760 you can look at the original sort of problem of 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:23.280 we have the same ethical responsibility someone who could sit 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:24.760 by car or somebodys on the other side of the world. 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:26.600 Is that Like the other way you can look at 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:28.560 that is like I don't care about what's happening is 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:29.520 some one of the other side of the world, so 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:30.760 they don't have to care about this person who get 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:35.439 hit by a car. And that seems like people are 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:38.440 doing It's like, well, really have to care about this 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:41.679 person here because there's some word over there. Yeah, I did, 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:44.240 like I can see like how this lines out with 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.719 some of these like like bigger like meta ethical kind 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:50.439 of perspectives on what equality is and what like your 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.760 ethical obligations are. But then yeah, it seems to just 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:58.000 kind of be like a very clear, like very clear, 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:00.719 slippery slope to making kind of mouth used and excuses 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:04.120 for doing fun. Right, That's that's where the story is heading. 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:07.640 So so good. Early two thousands, he does like a 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:11.520 ted talk. You know, the momentum around this idea starts 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:14.000 to build and it it really gets a shot in 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.160 the arm. In two thousand thirteen, with the work of 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:19.920 an author named Eric Friedman, Uh, Freedman's new book or 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:22.000 Freedland's book at the time that was new was called 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:26.439 Reinventing Philanthropy a Framework for more effective giving um and 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:29.000 he kind of he kind of extends the arguments that 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:31.280 singers making. One of the things that he does is 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:35.200 he he contrasts what St. Jude's Children's Reach their hospitals 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:39.520 are doing to like research children's medical or like like 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:42.760 illnesses that that kids suffer and treatments for them, um 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:46.400 with the Malagi Provincial Hospital in Angola. Um and he 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.520 kind of contrasts to patients who are being served at 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:52.880 the different hospitals for life threatening conditions and concludes, quote, 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:55.480 I'd probably also be very angry at the donors who 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:58.960 are continually funding St. Jude and leaving Melangi Provincial woefully 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:01.600 under resourced. Why are the patients of St. Jude's so 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:07.120 much more worthy of life? Like, Yeah, what a ridiculous 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:11.400 way to think about it. Children, fucking asinine. And the 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:13.440 fact that like many of the people who are doing 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.920 these fucking ted talks and contributing to this like a 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:18.320 global tech class are the same people who are making 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:22.280 fucking millions of dollars off the pharmaceutical industry, which continues 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:25.960 to neglect the diseases that people like in the colonial 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:28.880 periphery suffer from because there's no profit in selling them drugs, 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:32.199 and instead you're selling boldness cures to people in America, right, Like, 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:36.439 yes we can, I mean, like you you could if 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:38.599 we just if if every single person who had a 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:41.080 who's gotten a TED talk had all of their wealth 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:45.679 appropriated tomorrow, we could fund both of these hospitals exactly, Yes, yeah, 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:49.120 it would be better. It's fundamentally a kind of obscenity 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:53.360 to look at pharmaceutical company CEO is making hundreds of 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:57.120 millions and billions of dollars, selling people often literal poison 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.400 and jacking up the price of things like insulin. To 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.199 look at these text CEO is accumulating tens of billions 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:07.280 of dollars and to say, donations to this children's hospital 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:11.280 are robbing an Angolic hospital, so I won't be paying 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:16.920 my taxes. Yeah, why don't you go funk yourself? Yeah, 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.360 and anyway, like but this is like you can see 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.040 who this appeals to, righte If you like the kind 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:27.040 of people who love the freakonomics books, which are bullshit 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:35.400 regressive statistics story please. Yeah, Okay, So one of my 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:39.520 professors at Chicago was a political science guy, um or 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:42.720 I guess with public policy, and there's there's a thing, 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:44.480 there's a thing the freakonomics guy wrote where he was 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:48.400 trying to prove that money doesn't actually influence, like, doesn't 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:54.080 actually influence left. Yeah, and and you know what my my, my, 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:56.360 my professor wrote wrote a paper about that, which is 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:58.160 that you know and again this is this is a 0:12:58.160 --> 0:12:59.640 perfect example of how done this guy is. That he 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:01.880 doesn't This is how condis think, right, Like they when 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:03.560 they when they go into a field, they go in 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:06.520 thinking they already know everything and they can prove whatever 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:09.400 they want because, ok, but the thing this guy doesn't understand, right, 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:11.520 is that like and this is the thing most people 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:13.880 in the US do not understand about how Congress works. 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:16.080 Is that like all of the ship that's happening on 0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:18.360 the floor of Congress, all of those votes that is 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:20.360 not that is not real congress, right, that that is 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.480 fate Congress. Nothing nothing important to actually happens there. All 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:27.080 of the important stuff in Congress happens in committees. And 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:29.280 so you can't figure out whether money is doing anything 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.800 by measuring its effects on like votes on the floor, 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:34.760 because floor votes are bullshit. All of the important stuff 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:36.040 has already by the top, by the tip of floor 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:38.480 vote happens, all the important policing stuff has already happened. 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:40.600 And so he did this, heard this whole thing where 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:43.320 he was you know, he had this great I I. 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:47.120 He had this great metric called like uh oh god, 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:49.960 and it was it's called like like the the dairy 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:53.439 cow coefficients, which is like measuring like how how someone 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.040 should vote versus like how the dairy cows running. And 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:57.520 it shows out, you know, if you look at what 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:00.080 these people do in committee, no, yeah, hey, look it 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:03.640 turns out a lotting money is unbelievably effective. But because 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.560 this fucking guy had like and this is something that 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:09.120 like like this sort of distinction between between Congress like 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:11.640 on the floor and Congress and committee. Like there's a 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.000 president whose name of forgetting, who has this famous line 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:16.760 that like Congress and committee is Congress at work, Congress 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:18.559 on the floors, Congress at play or something like that. 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:21.600 Like it's it's like this is just like basic ship 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:25.280 that if you know literally anything about how a field works, 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:29.680 you cannot do if you wanna, if you wanna. If 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:32.440 you want a good breakdown of why the free economics 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:36.920 guy is full of shit? Michael Hobbs and Peter sham 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:38.920 Shary I think is his last name, have a new 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:41.560 podcast called If Books Could Kill and they break down 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:45.720 with like citations and everything, like why everything in that 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:48.400 book is horseship, but like the reason why it's the 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:50.120 only thing I'll disagree with you one Chris is I 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:52.880 don't think he's an idiot. I think he's very intelligent, 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:54.520 and I think the thing that he's smart to do 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:57.680 is he recognizes that there's a specific type of person 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.800 and engineers and programmers are very likely to be this 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:05.560 type of person who kind of fundamentally like their oppositional defiant. 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:08.480 If somebody if something, if people say like well this 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.600 is good or this is bad, um, they're going to 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:13.720 take they want to take the opposite stance. And if 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:15.760 you can provide the way to like feel like they're 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.240 enlightened and smart and actually looking at the data by 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.040 doing it, then they'll take the opposite stance on stuff 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.920 like it's bad to let people buy elections or it's 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:28.720 good to fund children's hospitals just because somebody has made 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:31.920 them feel smart for being an asshole. Um, that's what 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:35.360 the freakonomics guy does. Malcolm Gladwell does a subtler version 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.080 of it as a general rule. Um, and that's what 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:41.960 that's what the fucking Freedman is doing in this this book. 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:45.400 In two thousand thirteen, I found a good review of 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:49.680 it in the Stanford Social Innovation Review. Um. That is uh, 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:54.600 pretty scathing, Like surprisingly scathing considering it's it's written by 0:15:54.640 --> 0:15:58.120 a bunch of like Stanford nerds. This approach amounts to 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:01.120 a little more than charitable imperialist them, whereby my just 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.720 causes just in yours to one degree or another, is 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:07.280 a waste of precious resources. This approach is not informed 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:11.120 giving UM and I think that that does a pretty 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:15.400 good job of summarizing what I think is fucked up 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.480 about it. There's another thing that's really messed up, which 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:21.720 is that one of the conclusions that they gets come 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:24.280 that they come to here is that, um, they don't 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:26.920 recommend or there's an organization called gilve Well that kind 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:29.560 of gets gets formed as a result of the book 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:33.680 Freedman Rights, and they recommend not to deliver, like not 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:36.160 to donate money to disaster assistance in the wake of 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:40.640 the Japanese tsunami UM and opposed disaster relief donations in general. 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:44.040 UM because quote and this is from Freedman, most of 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:47.880 those killed by disasters could not have been saved by donations, UM, 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:51.320 which is number one. Like that's the donations are about 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:55.040 like rebuilding communities generally. It's not like about the saving lives. 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:57.880 Usually it's about like, well, all of the infrastructure was 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:02.120 destroyed and it must be rebuilt. Um. But okay, guy, 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:04.280 Well it's annoying to you because it's like it's it's 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:06.879 not like there's not good critiques of like pacifically always 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.600 like the Red Cross. Oh, it's all fucked up. Every 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:14.879 single yes critique is like the worst possible, like the 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:20.040 critiques yea, every single large charitable organization is fucked up. 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:22.040 And if you go and talk to people on the ground, 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:24.640 they will bitch. Like if you go to fucking war zones, 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:27.239 people bitch more about NGOs than the folks shooting at 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:31.760 them half the time. Like yeah, they bitch about it 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:35.040 being inefficient, about the stuff they're given being like bad 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:39.440 quality or like um, like nonsense, like just being handed 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:41.080 out to be handed out which is a thing that 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:44.199 happens sometimes, and a bitch about well paid aid workers 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.399 staying in hotels and showing up for a couple of 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:50.440 hours to like do a photo op. Um. There's also 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.520 more incisive, like you know, that's not to say none 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:56.439 of it's useful. Like, for example, as many complaints as 0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:59.480 people have, everyone I've known who has been in a 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:03.680 place where medicine sans Frontiers slash Doctors without Borders has operated, 0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.320 while they have complaints about doctors without borders are like, 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:10.040 it's good that there's more doctors here. We fucking need them. Um. 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:13.720 And you know, it's like U h c R. Plenty 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:15.520 of things to complain about you and h c R. 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:18.480 Every refugee camp I go to. Also, people have fucking 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:20.720 water filters, intins and ship because of you and h 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:23.159 c R, which isn't nothing. It's a damn site more 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:25.400 than nothing, And it's a damn site more than any 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:28.160 of these long term ass motherfucker's are doing for people 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:31.399 who are I don't know, displaced by war. Yeah, and 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:35.159 it's like some of the things that they're doing is 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:37.720 like this is very strange kind of attempts to calculate 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:40.679 and create markets for human life and human suffering, right, 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.320 which you see a lot if you were like I've 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:47.199 worked in nonprofit, I've worked in in disaster response, I've 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:49.399 seen some of these things on the ground, and it 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:53.479 it you see these bizarre fucking decisions being made by 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:55.920 by someone in an office who is likely never being 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:59.800 on the ground of these situations, and it inevitably results 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.840 in it's within these big organizations at the Red Cross 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:07.440 and MSF, but also on a governmental level, right, with 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:10.360 people not having the autonomy to respond in a situation 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:13.119 to reduce human suffering, and instead to be told to 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:15.640 do something which is supposedly evidence based based on someone 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:17.760 who's looked at the wrong criteria and come to the 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:21.679 wrong conclusion hundreds of miles away. And it's right us, 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:24.399 it's bureaucrats, right, And it's like we we've we've, we've 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:26.920 we've we've somehow managed to create like the absolute worst 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:29.560 possible and night mirror system of you have a bunch 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:32.120 of government bureaucrats and then you also have a bunch 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:34.399 of sort of privates that we have. We have like 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:37.840 different we're watching a collision of different kinds of private 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:40.440 sector bureaucrats, like you have, you have your sort of 0:19:40.480 --> 0:19:42.480 engeo bureaucrats you have, and then you know, and then 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:44.919 you have these billionaires who are also just fucking bureaucrats, 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:47.600 and all of them are just doing box ticking, and 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:51.840 we get like just the absolute worst nightmare fusion of 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:56.119 horrible bureaucracy and capitalism, which is a great way to 0:19:56.440 --> 0:20:00.560 run programs to have people not die. And so much 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:02.760 of this comes from what that. The whole like free 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:04.760 economics thing to me strikes me like we didn't, like 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.239 you said, reading the Wikipedia active about subject and then 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:08.960 applying trying to find out why you can apply a 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:12.119 market to it, and then posting that solution. It's stuff 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:14.680 we have. The episodes were dropping on Bastards well the 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.359 week before this episode will air, are about like why 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:18.840 the rent is so damn high? And one of the 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:21.560 complaints I have is that there's a specific class of 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:24.159 media people who the only answer they will accept is 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:28.280 because there's not enough multi family zoning, which is just 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:30.760 a part of why the rent is so damn high. 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:34.560 And reducing it to just that ignores UM, the price 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:38.280 fixing software that tens of millions of Americans, uh like 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:42.880 landlords use UM. It ignores shit like airbnb. It ignores 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.199 like the fucking problems in the construction industry, the lingering 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.399 effects of the two thousand eight crash. It's very frustrating, 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:52.000 and it's the these kind of like freakonomics guys like 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:55.000 to do the same thing, like the fucking fre economics student. 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:57.399 In particular, one of the things he got famous for 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:00.639 is being like, uh, you know, the up and crime 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:03.400 in the nineties, this unprecedented fallen crime was due to abortion, 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:07.159 which zero I will say again zero people who are 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:09.720 experts on the topic of crime in America agree with. 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:12.040 What they will say is actually there's a shipload of 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:14.480 different things that contributed to the declining crime, and there's 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:17.520 a good chance that abortion had an impact. A bigger 0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:20.600 impact was probably getting the lead out of like reducing 0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:23.880 environmental let although that gets overstated too. There's all sorts 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:26.640 of different ship including like air conditioning, just the fact 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:29.080 that like, yeah, now more people have air conditioning, and 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:31.400 guess when violence is highest in the summer, when people 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.480 are stuck around each other outside and like all sorts 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:37.960 of computer games. Don't people crimes because something else to do, 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:40.200 but it's you want to if you're gonna be doing 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:42.120 the kind of like if you're gonna be doing Ted 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:48.159 talk fucking uh public works philosophy, then it helps to 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:50.920 just be able to like make one big Malcolm glad 0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:53.800 while style fucking reveal. Anyway, that's how all these people 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:56.880 exist and how all of their morality is informed. After 0:21:57.000 --> 0:22:01.119 two thousand thirteen, Friedman is kind of like followed up 0:22:01.160 --> 0:22:04.080 by this guy named William McCaskill, who was currently the 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:08.240 he's a Scottish philosopher um, which god, it's easy to 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:12.560 get called a philosopher these days, um. And he is 0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:15.800 he is a personal friend of Elon Musk. When must 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:18.520 tests messages got released as part of that court filing, 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:21.840 some of them were with McCaskill um, who was considering 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:24.320 like putting a bunch of money into buying Twitter. They 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:28.200 ultimately decided not to, I think because they just like 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:30.439 it seems like McCaskill just didn't trust that Musk had 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:32.520 any sort of planned So he is, I will say this, 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:37.159 not an idiot, um, but he's wrong in ways that 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:39.280 are are deeply fucked up. And he wrote a book 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:41.880 that is currently a bestseller. It was published in August 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:45.879 called What We Owe the Future and the gist of 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:48.720 this is that, like it's merging this kind of effective 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:51.240 altruism with what's called long term is um, which is 0:22:51.320 --> 0:22:56.440 this argument that morally we have to consider the impact 0:22:56.520 --> 0:22:59.400 of our actions as not just on people alive today 0:22:59.480 --> 0:23:02.760 but in future your people, which is fine. There's actually 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:05.359 a lot to that idea, But the way it always 0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:08.200 works out is we can't pay attention to problems that 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:10.520 people are suffering now. We have to we have to 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:14.280 work on saving the world from these bigger problems. Um. 0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:17.159 And again it's almost it's almost exclusively used as an 0:23:17.240 --> 0:23:19.920 argument for guys like Musk to like, well, we shouldn't 0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:23.480 tax billionaires out of existence because I you know, I 0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:26.320 see this that with clarity the problems that we face, 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:28.760 and the long term solution is for me to be 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:30.800 able to push for these specific things that I think 0:23:30.840 --> 0:23:33.200 are the only way to save humanity. Right. I'm getting 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:35.560 ahead of myself a little bit here. Let's talk about 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:38.960 mccaskell again. Um, when he was at Oxford. He's an 0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:42.240 Oxford boy, James. Uh, look at it we've had in 0:23:42.320 --> 0:23:46.200 Bangus sure. Yeah. Uh. He started a group called Giving 0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:48.960 what we Can in two thousand nine. Uh, and members 0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:50.840 were supposed to give away ten percent of what they 0:23:50.920 --> 0:23:55.160 earned to the most cost effective charities possible, which is fine, 0:23:55.400 --> 0:23:58.280 there's nothing wrong with that idea basically, and it was 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:00.680 like supposed to be basically a lifelong promise that like, 0:24:00.800 --> 0:24:02.960 you know, we're all because you assume Oxford people, a 0:24:02.960 --> 0:24:04.480 lot of them are going to wind up making very 0:24:04.520 --> 0:24:07.680 good money. You know, as we move into our careers, 0:24:07.760 --> 0:24:09.960 this will be a more and more influential kind of 0:24:10.040 --> 0:24:15.679 giving um. But yeah, dropped the board. If they'd had 0:24:15.760 --> 0:24:19.600 me there that, Yeah, those meetings might have gone a 0:24:19.680 --> 0:24:25.560 little bit different in Yeah, Over time though, he's kind 0:24:25.600 --> 0:24:28.320 of moved into he's merged this and and again the 0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:31.560 whole effective altruism movement. A lot of it does start 0:24:31.760 --> 0:24:35.320 reasonably with people being like, are these charities were donating 0:24:35.359 --> 0:24:38.159 to working? How can we make sure they're effective? Like 0:24:38.280 --> 0:24:41.520 what can we do to make giving um work better? 0:24:41.600 --> 0:24:44.840 Which is again perfectly fine, but very quickly gets married 0:24:45.240 --> 0:24:48.240 to this kind of long termist thinking um and they 0:24:48.320 --> 0:24:52.080 focus instead of stuff like, for example, funding hospitals, stuff 0:24:52.119 --> 0:24:55.680 like preventing an artificial intelligence from killing everybody, or like 0:24:56.119 --> 0:24:59.399 sending people to distant planets, which are like cool, and 0:24:59.560 --> 0:25:02.520 sci fi I and everything, but also deeply unrealistic. I'll 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:04.840 say it right now. Our our threat is not that 0:25:04.960 --> 0:25:07.240 an AI kills us all. There's certainly a threat that 0:25:07.320 --> 0:25:10.840 different kind of artificial intelligences are used by authoritarians to 0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:13.359 make life worse for everybody. But by the way, Peter 0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:16.840 Teal is a big back or of effective altruism. He's 0:25:16.880 --> 0:25:20.200 one of the people building that fucking aim. This is 0:25:20.280 --> 0:25:22.760 the guy who wrote that thing about earning to give 0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:25.160 right like that. He was like, this is the guy 0:25:25.200 --> 0:25:28.600 who did that. Yeah, okay, I'm familiar. Promise to never 0:25:28.760 --> 0:25:32.080 take more than thirty one dollars or something and income 0:25:32.119 --> 0:25:34.400 over the course like of a year in his life 0:25:34.480 --> 0:25:38.359 and give charity. He gives all his book profits to charity. 0:25:38.960 --> 0:25:42.000 But he also runs an organization that is spending more 0:25:42.040 --> 0:25:44.520 and more on keeping its people comfortable because I guess 0:25:44.560 --> 0:25:47.040 he doesn't have the money personally to spend anyway. I 0:25:47.080 --> 0:25:50.240 think there's some sketchy ship there. Yeah, this whole idea, 0:25:50.359 --> 0:25:52.399 and I'm sure we're gonna get today right like like, 0:25:53.440 --> 0:25:58.200 it completely overlooks our obligation morally to agitate for structural change, 0:25:58.520 --> 0:26:01.560 right like. It says like if you can become a 0:26:01.640 --> 0:26:05.720 billionaire through whatever bullshit, evil, fucking exploitative grift you can, 0:26:05.960 --> 0:26:09.440 and then give nine of that away. You're still perpetuating 0:26:09.480 --> 0:26:12.600 a system in which one grift gets rich and thousands 0:26:12.680 --> 0:26:16.080 of people die without fucking clean water. But that's okay 0:26:16.119 --> 0:26:18.639 because you also donated some water filters or whatever like. 0:26:18.760 --> 0:26:23.280 And it's not okay, and it makes me very angry. Actually, yeah, yeah, 0:26:23.320 --> 0:26:25.040 it makes me angry too. And it's one of those 0:26:25.080 --> 0:26:27.320 things if you look at, like, here's all the charities 0:26:27.359 --> 0:26:29.639 that mc caskell and his organization are putting hundreds of 0:26:29.640 --> 0:26:32.320 millions dollars of dollars into. They're not all bad. A 0:26:32.400 --> 0:26:34.360 lot of them are good, and I'm glad that money 0:26:34.480 --> 0:26:37.479 is going there, but there's always this strain of deeply 0:26:37.560 --> 0:26:39.800 unsettling logic running through it. Now, I want to quote 0:26:39.800 --> 0:26:42.120 from a Time article that I think kind of gets 0:26:42.680 --> 0:26:45.640 in a very subtle way, has this guy's number. When 0:26:45.720 --> 0:26:48.160 I start thinking in practice, if you've got if you've 0:26:48.160 --> 0:26:50.040 got some things that look robustly good in both the 0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:52.120 short and the long term, that definitely makes you feel 0:26:52.160 --> 0:26:54.040 a lot better about something that is only good from 0:26:54.040 --> 0:26:56.959 a very long term perspective. He says. This year, for example, 0:26:57.000 --> 0:27:00.160 he personally donated to the Let Exposure Elimination Project, which 0:27:00.160 --> 0:27:02.920 aims to in childhood let exposure, and the Atlas Fellowship, 0:27:03.119 --> 0:27:05.600 which supports talented high school students around the world to 0:27:05.640 --> 0:27:08.720 work on pressing problems. Not all issues are equally tractable, 0:27:08.760 --> 0:27:10.879 but McCaskill still cares about a range. When we met 0:27:10.880 --> 0:27:13.760 An Oxford, he expressed concern for the ongoing political crisis 0:27:13.840 --> 0:27:16.840 in Sri Lanka, though admitted he probably wouldn't tweet about it. 0:27:17.280 --> 0:27:19.639 The answer, he believes, is to be honest about it. 0:27:19.840 --> 0:27:22.879 In philanthropy, big donors typically choose causes based on their 0:27:22.920 --> 0:27:27.119 personal passions and ultra subjectivist approach. McCaskill says, where everything 0:27:27.200 --> 0:27:29.800 is seemingly justifiable on the basis of doing some good, 0:27:30.119 --> 0:27:32.360 he doesn't think that's tenable. If you can save someone 0:27:32.400 --> 0:27:34.840 from drowning or ten people from dying in a burning building, 0:27:35.080 --> 0:27:37.200 what should you do, he proposes, It is not a 0:27:37.280 --> 0:27:41.080 morally appropriate response to say, well, I'm particularly passionate about drowning, 0:27:41.119 --> 0:27:43.360 so I'm going to save one person from drowning rather 0:27:43.440 --> 0:27:45.520 than the ten people from burning. And that's exactly the 0:27:45.640 --> 0:27:48.639 situation we find ourselves in and like, no, it is not. 0:27:49.119 --> 0:27:51.480 That is nonsense because, among other things, if you're a 0:27:51.600 --> 0:27:55.119 random person, uh, and you have a choice between saving 0:27:55.640 --> 0:27:57.600 someone from drowning or ten people from dying in a 0:27:57.640 --> 0:28:01.440 burning building, well you actually probably don't because satan people 0:28:01.480 --> 0:28:04.440 from drowning is a really difficult technical skill, which is 0:28:04.480 --> 0:28:07.240 why people usually die when they try to rescue whether 0:28:07.320 --> 0:28:11.080 folks who were drowning. The guy the creator of Hugo 0:28:11.280 --> 0:28:14.840 died trying to from drowning. It's really hard and dangerous, 0:28:15.119 --> 0:28:18.160 and also so is rescuing people from a burning building, 0:28:18.160 --> 0:28:20.680 which is why we have firefighters. And guess what, a 0:28:20.760 --> 0:28:23.160 lot of firefighters may not be very good at saving 0:28:23.200 --> 0:28:25.320 people from drowning because they have not trained for that. 0:28:25.640 --> 0:28:29.000 There are different skills, and these are both problems, but 0:28:29.080 --> 0:28:32.240 they're different skills. But what have you instead spend that 0:28:32.400 --> 0:28:35.560 time buying some testlas dogs and then sold them and 0:28:35.600 --> 0:28:37.920 instead invested in Uh I know, I fink it's something 0:28:37.960 --> 0:28:41.320 that stops water from from drowning people. Like, none of 0:28:41.400 --> 0:28:44.360 the problems we have are are None of the problems 0:28:44.600 --> 0:28:46.960 I'm going to say right now, zero percent of the 0:28:47.040 --> 0:28:49.120 problems we have are the result of some sort of 0:28:49.240 --> 0:28:53.720 like lifeguard firefighter standing in between a burning building and 0:28:53.920 --> 0:28:56.760 like a yacht race gone wrong and going oh god, no, 0:28:58.400 --> 0:29:01.720 it's like the trade doing the troning problem. He's he's 0:29:01.840 --> 0:29:05.200 just he's trying to do Tony problem. It's funny that 0:29:05.200 --> 0:29:07.160 he's talked about Sri Lanka too, because it's like this 0:29:07.320 --> 0:29:09.240 is the perfect example. This is the perfect example of 0:29:09.280 --> 0:29:13.080 a political crisis that is like completely intractable to all 0:29:13.160 --> 0:29:15.800 of these like no, no, no, none of these people 0:29:15.840 --> 0:29:19.360 donating the charities can like do literally anything about that, 0:29:19.440 --> 0:29:22.160 because that's actually you know, like this like the crisis 0:29:22.200 --> 0:29:24.600 of Sri Lanka is a is a is a both 0:29:24.680 --> 0:29:26.760 both is it like it is, but it is both 0:29:26.800 --> 0:29:30.280 a sort of short term crisis of this like you know, 0:29:30.680 --> 0:29:33.840 like utterly horrific genocidal political elites, and then also a 0:29:33.880 --> 0:29:35.600 sort of long term crisis about like the sort of 0:29:35.600 --> 0:29:39.040 structural position of like specificcific countries and sort of the 0:29:39.680 --> 0:29:42.360 global colonial system. This is not something any of these 0:29:42.400 --> 0:29:44.160 people can solve. The only the only thing, the only 0:29:44.200 --> 0:29:45.840 way any of these people could solve this is if 0:29:45.840 --> 0:29:48.760 the people of Sri Lanka like just expropriated them. But 0:29:49.000 --> 0:29:52.600 you know, but he but because because because because these people, 0:29:52.800 --> 0:29:55.040 like because Sri Lankas do not have access to this 0:29:55.240 --> 0:29:59.280 guy and like six guns. Right, there's no there's no way, 0:29:59.480 --> 0:30:00.800 you know, he can just sort of sit there with 0:30:00.880 --> 0:30:03.520 his chair going, well, it's a crisis. I'm gonna tweet 0:30:03.560 --> 0:30:07.080 about it. I'm not gonna tweet about it. He's yeah, 0:30:07.200 --> 0:30:09.080 I was. I was simply talked to newspapers about it 0:30:09.080 --> 0:30:11.880 in tweeting. What what I would say is that, like, 0:30:12.640 --> 0:30:15.600 here's the actual solution to the stupid problem this guy 0:30:15.680 --> 0:30:18.400 came up with. Well, if we were to tax all 0:30:18.480 --> 0:30:20.560 of the billionaires to the point that they weren't billionaires 0:30:20.600 --> 0:30:23.440 and then put that into a massive new like works 0:30:23.560 --> 0:30:27.600 progress fund that instead of like just building national parks, 0:30:28.120 --> 0:30:31.720 provided like rental assistance to millions of Americans in exchange 0:30:31.760 --> 0:30:34.040 for them learning how to fight fires and getting basic 0:30:34.120 --> 0:30:37.240 life gave saving care and getting trained in things um 0:30:37.560 --> 0:30:40.440 like that, so that they could deal with the consequences 0:30:40.480 --> 0:30:42.560 of climate change and be able to protect their communities 0:30:42.600 --> 0:30:46.280 effectively and be incentivized to gain the actual technical skills 0:30:46.320 --> 0:30:48.720 that would allow them to protect people. Well, then you 0:30:48.760 --> 0:30:51.120 would have more people capable of saving someone from a 0:30:51.160 --> 0:30:55.840 burning building or from drowning. Um, but anyway, whatever, that's 0:30:55.960 --> 0:30:59.040 that's that's my that's my pie in the sky. Leftist 0:30:59.400 --> 0:31:03.040 solution to that is use funds taken from the rich 0:31:03.200 --> 0:31:06.800 in order to incentivize people to gain the skills that 0:31:06.840 --> 0:31:09.200 will allow them to protect their communities in the event 0:31:09.280 --> 0:31:14.560 of disasters. Um, anyway, whatever. Uh So, over the last decade, 0:31:14.600 --> 0:31:17.120 all of this thinking has increasingly given away from a 0:31:17.200 --> 0:31:20.640 wonky theory on charitable giving by bighearted, guilt ridden millennial kids. 0:31:20.680 --> 0:31:23.360 And that's that's how this guy has always framed in articles, 0:31:23.440 --> 0:31:25.920 McCaskill is. He's like, in fact, I'm gonna fucking I'm 0:31:25.960 --> 0:31:27.720 gonna scroll down here to my notes and I'm gonna 0:31:27.760 --> 0:31:29.480 find the section of the article to like show you 0:31:29.560 --> 0:31:31.840 the way he gets fucking talked about in all of 0:31:31.920 --> 0:31:35.520 these quote. Thirteen years ago, William McCaskill found himself standing 0:31:35.560 --> 0:31:38.400 in the aisle of a grocery store, agonizing over which 0:31:38.440 --> 0:31:40.880 breakfast cereal to buy. If he switched to a cheaper 0:31:40.920 --> 0:31:43.200 brand for a year, could he put aside enough money 0:31:43.280 --> 0:31:48.440 to save someone's life? Like that's the Yeah, that's sort 0:31:48.440 --> 0:31:50.400 of like that you have where your engagement with global 0:31:50.440 --> 0:31:56.480 poverty is in the fucking Cheerios aisle exactly exactly the 0:31:57.080 --> 0:32:00.880 yeah of weight Rose in Oxford. I'm sure like, no, funk, Sorry, 0:32:00.960 --> 0:32:04.320 I'm so fucking angry at this ship. And it's it's clearly, 0:32:04.480 --> 0:32:06.520 very clearly I can see that this is going towards 0:32:06.560 --> 0:32:09.280 an excuse for incredibly wealthy people paying funk all in 0:32:09.360 --> 0:32:11.520 taxes because they claim that that it's not an efficient 0:32:11.560 --> 0:32:14.560 way to do things, and they completely ignore all these 0:32:14.920 --> 0:32:18.480 structural things which have to exist for their effective altruism 0:32:18.560 --> 0:32:22.720 to occur in the first place. Right, Yeah, it's um anyway, 0:32:23.360 --> 0:32:26.239 this is effectively like over the years given away from 0:32:26.320 --> 0:32:29.280 this again kind of this wonky theory by guilty millennial 0:32:29.360 --> 0:32:32.320 kids to this pop philosophy for the fintech set, because 0:32:32.600 --> 0:32:35.120 that's how these guilt written millennial kids wound up making 0:32:35.160 --> 0:32:38.400 a bunch of money. Um. And yeah, that time article 0:32:38.640 --> 0:32:41.640 gives like I just want to read another quote from 0:32:41.640 --> 0:32:44.040 it about one of the other guys who's involved in 0:32:44.120 --> 0:32:48.600 putting a lot of money into McCaskill's organization quote Mr 0:32:48.920 --> 0:32:52.040 Mr Bankman Freed makes his donations through the ft X Foundation, 0:32:52.080 --> 0:32:53.880 which is given away a hundred and forty million, of 0:32:53.920 --> 0:32:56.120 which ninety million has gone through the group's future fund 0:32:56.160 --> 0:32:59.520 towards long term causes. Mr McCaskill and Mr Bankman Fried's 0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:02.400 relationship as an important piece and understanding the community's evolution 0:33:02.440 --> 0:33:04.400 in recent years. The two men first met in two 0:33:04.440 --> 0:33:06.640 thousand and twelve, when Mr Bankman Freed was a student 0:33:06.680 --> 0:33:09.520 at M I T with an interest in utilitarian philosophy. 0:33:09.920 --> 0:33:12.280 Over lunch, Mr Bankman Freed said that he was interested 0:33:12.280 --> 0:33:16.080 in working she related to animal welfare. Mr McCaskill suggested 0:33:16.120 --> 0:33:18.240 he might do more good by entering a high earning 0:33:18.360 --> 0:33:21.040 field and donating money to the cause and by working 0:33:21.080 --> 0:33:24.400 for directly. Mr Bankman Freed contacted the Humane League and 0:33:24.400 --> 0:33:26.560 other charities, asking if they would prefer his time or 0:33:26.640 --> 0:33:29.120 donations based on his expected earnings if he went to 0:33:29.160 --> 0:33:31.360 work in tech or finance. They opted for the money, 0:33:31.440 --> 0:33:34.360 and he embarked on a remunerative career, eventually founding the 0:33:34.440 --> 0:33:42.720 cryptocurrency Exchange nineteen. First off, that guy absolutely did not 0:33:43.000 --> 0:33:45.760 call any charities. Um, sorry, this was a four. This 0:33:45.880 --> 0:33:48.720 was from the Forbes article I used, not the Time article. Um. 0:33:49.120 --> 0:33:52.280 First off, I don't believe that he but if he did, 0:33:52.320 --> 0:33:55.120 it was something like, Hey, I don't have any skills 0:33:55.360 --> 0:33:57.400 or training. Do you want money or do you want 0:33:57.440 --> 0:33:59.680 me to volunteer? And they were like, who then is this? Kids, like, 0:33:59.720 --> 0:34:02.320 we don't we don't need another asshole wandering around here 0:34:02.360 --> 0:34:06.760 trying to touch the cats. Um, send us you a check. Yeah, 0:34:06.880 --> 0:34:09.640 And so instead of I don't know, getting trained as 0:34:09.640 --> 0:34:11.759 a vet tech or something where he would actually be 0:34:11.800 --> 0:34:15.040 able to help animals, he founded a cryptocurrency exchange and 0:34:15.120 --> 0:34:17.560 contributed to the burning of massive amounts of carbon that 0:34:17.640 --> 0:34:20.880 will contribute to mass deforestation in the deaths of animals 0:34:20.920 --> 0:34:23.479 around the world. That's good. I think that there's another 0:34:23.560 --> 0:34:25.720 aspect of this, which I think is sort of under explored, 0:34:25.760 --> 0:34:28.840 which is that utilitarianism is genuinely one of the greatest 0:34:28.840 --> 0:34:32.320 evil's humanity has ever created, every every bad decision anyone 0:34:32.360 --> 0:34:34.200 has ever made. If you look behind it, you can 0:34:34.239 --> 0:34:36.440 find your deilitarian is like it's a basis of the 0:34:36.480 --> 0:34:41.800 basis of all economics. It's horrible, haything bad in the world. 0:34:43.880 --> 0:34:46.200 It is an engine that allows rich people to feel 0:34:46.239 --> 0:34:48.800 good about hurting poor people. That's that's what it is. 0:34:49.000 --> 0:34:50.959 But and that's what I think this all makes clear. 0:34:51.400 --> 0:34:54.400 So the actual rhetoric from these people is always like it, 0:34:54.719 --> 0:34:56.400 especially if you're just kind of encountering it out in 0:34:56.400 --> 0:34:58.160 the wild. It's hard to argue with a lot of 0:34:58.239 --> 0:34:59.880 the time because they'll be like, well, look, we need 0:35:00.080 --> 0:35:01.719 look at what's going to help the most people, and 0:35:02.000 --> 0:35:03.800 that's why we're you know, setting up None of this 0:35:03.920 --> 0:35:06.320 matters if we don't deal with this problem or that problem. 0:35:07.080 --> 0:35:10.359 And it's it's Taylor made to sound profound and again 0:35:10.440 --> 0:35:12.160 and like a Ted talk or the website for the 0:35:12.360 --> 0:35:14.920 Charitable Giving organization aimed at getting you to like put 0:35:15.200 --> 0:35:18.439 ten percent of your income to long termist causes. But again, 0:35:18.560 --> 0:35:21.200 the funked up ship crusts kind of around the edges 0:35:21.280 --> 0:35:23.520 for the most part in lines like these from a 0:35:23.640 --> 0:35:27.200 time profile on the Castle. The first public protest against 0:35:27.200 --> 0:35:31.240 African American slavery was the six eighty eight Germantown Quaker petition. 0:35:31.640 --> 0:35:34.360 Slavery was only Yeah. Slavery was only abolished in the 0:35:34.400 --> 0:35:37.720 British Empire in eighteen thirty three decades later in the US, 0:35:37.760 --> 0:35:40.840 and not until nineteen sixty two in Saudi Arabia. History 0:35:40.960 --> 0:35:44.920 encourages mccaskell to favor gradual progress, so for revolution, abolition, 0:35:45.000 --> 0:35:47.319 he says, is maybe the single best moral change ever. 0:35:47.400 --> 0:35:50.360 It's certainly up there with feminism, and they're extremely incremental. 0:35:50.640 --> 0:35:53.040 They don't seem that way because we enormously shrink the past. 0:35:53.080 --> 0:35:56.040 But it's almost three hundred years we're talking about. Um. 0:35:56.480 --> 0:35:58.480 That wasn't the result of incremental change. It was the 0:35:58.560 --> 0:36:02.160 result against the people who enslaves, fighting viciously against any 0:36:02.200 --> 0:36:05.400 attempts to end slavery. Like it was a it was 0:36:05.480 --> 0:36:08.239 a battle. It was a series of in fact, a 0:36:08.360 --> 0:36:11.360 series of revolutions in a lot of cases including like 0:36:11.440 --> 0:36:14.399 the Haitian Revolution and guys like John Brown. There were 0:36:14.480 --> 0:36:17.319 a ship bleeding Kansas. There were a shipload of people 0:36:17.400 --> 0:36:20.239 died fighting in order to end slavery. Like yeah, it's 0:36:20.239 --> 0:36:23.879 a civil war, dude, what do you call that? That's 0:36:23.920 --> 0:36:27.279 not incremental. A million people shot each other to death, 0:36:27.719 --> 0:36:29.080 you know, And it's it's so far as we can 0:36:29.120 --> 0:36:31.040 talk about sort of income with the progress, it's stuff 0:36:31.120 --> 0:36:33.959 like okay, So the like the slaves in Haiti freed 0:36:34.000 --> 0:36:36.279 themselves by means of revolution and then sent a bunch 0:36:36.320 --> 0:36:38.880 of guns and weapons to people in Latin America so 0:36:39.000 --> 0:36:42.000 that their armies could march through Latin America and end slavery, 0:36:42.440 --> 0:36:46.600 Like many revolutions had to occur to end slavery because 0:36:46.680 --> 0:36:49.600 it was a powerful system at the center of global 0:36:49.719 --> 0:36:52.760 capital that a lot of entrenched and heavily armed interests 0:36:52.880 --> 0:36:56.040 were willing to die to maintain. Which also is fun 0:36:56.200 --> 0:36:59.480 because I I I bet, I bet if you look 0:36:59.560 --> 0:37:01.440 through these people supply chains, and this is almost certainly 0:37:01.480 --> 0:37:04.479 true of Elon must supply chains, like I mean, okay, 0:37:06.680 --> 0:37:09.680 must supply chains. In China. You can have some kind 0:37:09.760 --> 0:37:11.919 of debate as to whether the kinds of forced labor 0:37:11.960 --> 0:37:14.680 you're going to be encounting our slavery, Like I I 0:37:15.280 --> 0:37:17.040 bet if you look through night present the people who 0:37:17.040 --> 0:37:19.520 are affective aulters, you can find slavery in their supply chains, 0:37:19.920 --> 0:37:23.000 and their arguments will be like, well, I can't slavery 0:37:23.040 --> 0:37:26.160 and must supply chain because I guarantee it. They're all 0:37:26.200 --> 0:37:29.560 in the tech industry, and like nobody has a laptop 0:37:29.719 --> 0:37:32.560 or a smartphone without the use of rare earth minerals 0:37:32.640 --> 0:37:35.799 that are like acquired via slavery. It's it's the same 0:37:35.840 --> 0:37:38.640 thing if you're wearing clothes, you have something that slavery 0:37:38.760 --> 0:37:42.000 was involved in. Because the garment industry, slavery is literally 0:37:42.080 --> 0:37:45.400 inextricable from it. Like the company that has tried the 0:37:45.520 --> 0:37:49.359 hardest to remove slavery from their from their production line, Patagonia, 0:37:49.840 --> 0:37:53.680 UM still continually finds like, oh, no, they're smart. Yeah, 0:37:54.719 --> 0:37:57.560 they're pretty good. I'm going out, But yeah, they put 0:37:57.560 --> 0:37:59.279 a load of money into that ship and they still 0:37:59.560 --> 0:38:04.239 it is hard. Um. Anyway, UM, I'm going to read 0:38:04.280 --> 0:38:07.480 another fun quote from the Forbes article. Mr Bankman Freed 0:38:07.520 --> 0:38:09.080 said he expected to give away the bulk of his 0:38:09.200 --> 0:38:11.479 fortune in the next tender twenty years. If you're worried 0:38:11.480 --> 0:38:13.960 about existential risks of a really bad pandemic, you sort 0:38:14.000 --> 0:38:16.160 of can't stall on that. Mr Bankman Freed said in 0:38:16.200 --> 0:38:18.799 an interview. That is how his text messages popped up 0:38:18.800 --> 0:38:21.720 among hundreds of others sent to Mr Musk. Mr Bankman 0:38:21.760 --> 0:38:24.399 Freed ultimately did not join Mr Musk's bid. I don't 0:38:24.400 --> 0:38:26.640 know exactly what Elon's goals are going to be with Twitter. 0:38:26.800 --> 0:38:29.160 Mr Bankman Freed said in an interview there was a 0:38:29.239 --> 0:38:31.680 little bit of ambiguity there. He had his hands full 0:38:31.760 --> 0:38:34.360 in the month that followed his cryptocurrency prices crashed. The 0:38:34.400 --> 0:38:36.440 Twitter deal has been volatile in its own way, with 0:38:36.560 --> 0:38:38.840 Mr Musk trying to back out, before recently announcing his 0:38:38.920 --> 0:38:41.560 intention to follow through that after all. In August, Mr 0:38:41.640 --> 0:38:44.480 Musk retweeted Mr mccaskeell's book announcement to his hundred and 0:38:44.480 --> 0:38:47.680 eight million followers with the observation worth reading this is 0:38:47.719 --> 0:38:54.279 a close match to my philosophy. So that's that's kind 0:38:54.360 --> 0:38:57.719 of the surface of where we are now. Um. It 0:38:57.880 --> 0:39:00.920 is not. It doesn't quite get at all of the 0:39:01.000 --> 0:39:03.080 things that are deeply fucked up. And for that I 0:39:03.200 --> 0:39:06.640 wanted to quote from another article. UM. I found an 0:39:06.680 --> 0:39:10.880 a on a E O N. It's an essay by h. 0:39:11.280 --> 0:39:13.200 Got Let make it the author here because it's it's 0:39:13.280 --> 0:39:15.319 quite good about long term as. It's an essay called 0:39:15.360 --> 0:39:19.160 against long termism by Emil P. Torres, a phb candidate 0:39:19.320 --> 0:39:24.600 at a university in Hanover in Germany uh Leibnitz Universitat. 0:39:24.680 --> 0:39:26.600 I don't know. I feel silly every time I try 0:39:26.680 --> 0:39:28.960 to say Germans, so I'm not going to try that hard. 0:39:29.239 --> 0:39:32.000 But the article is very good, um, and it kind 0:39:32.040 --> 0:39:36.400 of gets at how this effective altruism movement has merged 0:39:36.680 --> 0:39:40.200 with long term is um in a way that specifically 0:39:40.280 --> 0:39:45.080 exists to buoy the interests of wealthy authoritarians around the 0:39:45.120 --> 0:39:48.480 world quote. This has roots in the work of Nick Bostrom, 0:39:48.520 --> 0:39:51.800 who founded the grandiosely named Future of Humanity Institute f 0:39:52.000 --> 0:39:54.680 HI in two thousand five, and Nick Bestead, a research 0:39:54.719 --> 0:39:58.320 associated FHI and a program officer at Open Philanthropy. It 0:39:58.360 --> 0:40:01.520 has been defended most publicly by the HI philosopher Toby Ord, 0:40:01.600 --> 0:40:04.680 author of the precipice Existential Risk in the Future of Humanity. 0:40:05.160 --> 0:40:07.840 Long Termism is the primary research focus of both the 0:40:07.880 --> 0:40:11.440 Global Priorities Institute and an f HI in linked organization 0:40:11.520 --> 0:40:14.560 directed by Hillary Greeves, and the Forethought Foundation run by 0:40:14.640 --> 0:40:17.920 William mccaskell, who also holds positions at f HI and 0:40:18.000 --> 0:40:20.520 g p I. Adding to the tangle of titles, names, 0:40:20.560 --> 0:40:22.879 institutes and acronyms, long termism is one of the main 0:40:23.040 --> 0:40:26.239 cause areas of the so called effective altruism movement, which 0:40:26.320 --> 0:40:28.760 was introduced by Ord in around two thousand even eleven 0:40:28.800 --> 0:40:31.160 and now boast of having a mind boggling forty six 0:40:31.239 --> 0:40:34.440 billion dollars in committed funding. It is difficult to overstate 0:40:34.480 --> 0:40:37.879 how influential long termism has become. Karl Marx in forty 0:40:37.920 --> 0:40:40.080 five declarded that the point of philosophy isn't merely to 0:40:40.160 --> 0:40:42.560 interpret the world, but change it, and this is exactly 0:40:42.600 --> 0:40:45.120 what long term USTs have been doing with extraordinary success. 0:40:45.560 --> 0:40:48.520 Consider that Elon Musk, who is cited and endorsed Bostroom's work, 0:40:48.719 --> 0:40:51.440 has donated one point five million dollars to FHI through 0:40:51.480 --> 0:40:55.320 its sister organization, even more grandiosely named Future of Life Institute. 0:40:55.600 --> 0:40:58.960 This was co founded by the multimillionaire tech entrepreneur Jan Talinn, 0:40:59.200 --> 0:41:01.600 who has a recently noted doesn't believe that climate change 0:41:01.640 --> 0:41:04.880 poses an existential threat to humanity because of his adherence 0:41:04.920 --> 0:41:08.759 to the long termist ideology. Meanwhile, the billionaire libertarian and 0:41:08.840 --> 0:41:11.240 Donald Trump supporter Peter Teal, who once gave the keynote 0:41:11.239 --> 0:41:14.359 address and an effective Altruism conference, has donated large sums 0:41:14.400 --> 0:41:17.640 of money to the Machine Intelligence Research Institute, whose mission 0:41:17.719 --> 0:41:20.560 is to save in humanity from super intelligent machines and 0:41:20.719 --> 0:41:24.200 is deeply intertwined with long termist values. Other organizations, such 0:41:24.239 --> 0:41:26.480 as g p I and the Foe Thought Foundation are 0:41:26.520 --> 0:41:29.160 funding essay contests and scholarships and an effort to draw 0:41:29.239 --> 0:41:31.760 young people into the community. Well, it's an open secret 0:41:31.800 --> 0:41:33.960 of the Washington d C. Base Center for Security and 0:41:34.040 --> 0:41:37.440 Emergence and Emerging Technologies c SET aims to place long 0:41:37.520 --> 0:41:40.840 termsts within high level US government positions to shape national apology. 0:41:41.200 --> 0:41:44.000 In fact, c SET was established by Jason Mathani, a 0:41:44.080 --> 0:41:46.120 former research assistant and f HI who is now the 0:41:46.200 --> 0:41:49.000 Deputy Assistant to US President Joe Biden for Technology and 0:41:49.080 --> 0:41:52.560 National Security. Or It himself, has, astonishingly for a philosopher, 0:41:52.760 --> 0:41:55.359 advised the World Health Organization, the World Bank, the World 0:41:55.400 --> 0:41:58.359 Economic Forum, the U S National Intelligence Council, the UK 0:41:58.520 --> 0:42:01.400 Prime Minister's Office, Cabinet, all US in Government Office for Science, 0:42:01.440 --> 0:42:03.920 and he recently contributed to a report from the Secretary 0:42:04.000 --> 0:42:06.799 General of the United Nations that specifically mentions long term 0:42:06.960 --> 0:42:10.040 is um. The short answer is that elevating the fulfillment 0:42:10.040 --> 0:42:13.000 of humanities supposed potential above all else could not trivially 0:42:13.080 --> 0:42:16.040 increase the probability that actual people those alive today in 0:42:16.320 --> 0:42:19.600 the near future suffer extreme harms even death. Consider As 0:42:19.600 --> 0:42:22.480 I noted elsewhere, the long termist ideology inclines its adherence 0:42:22.480 --> 0:42:26.040 to take an Insusian attitude towards climate change. Why because 0:42:26.080 --> 0:42:28.920 even if climate change causes island nations to disappear, triggers 0:42:28.920 --> 0:42:31.719 mass migrations and kills millions of people. It probably isn't 0:42:31.719 --> 0:42:33.919 going to compromise our long term potential over the coming 0:42:34.000 --> 0:42:36.400 trillions of years. If one takes a cosmic view of 0:42:36.440 --> 0:42:39.200 the situation, even a climate catastrophe that cuts the human 0:42:39.200 --> 0:42:42.000 population by se for the next two millennial will, in 0:42:42.040 --> 0:42:44.080 the grand scheme of things, be nothing more than a 0:42:44.160 --> 0:42:46.360 small blip, the equivalent of a nine year old man 0:42:46.480 --> 0:42:49.719 having stubbed his toe when he was two. So this 0:42:49.920 --> 0:42:53.600 is evil, right, Like, this is like, this is vicious 0:42:53.719 --> 0:42:55.839 and vile and cruel, and it's one of those things. 0:42:55.920 --> 0:42:57.879 There's a book that I've talked about on the show 0:42:57.920 --> 0:43:00.600 a couple of times UM that is quite popular called 0:43:00.640 --> 0:43:03.000 Ministry of the Future UM, And I think it's a 0:43:03.080 --> 0:43:05.000 very good book. And one of the attitude, like the 0:43:05.120 --> 0:43:08.640 basic premise of it is that climate change is addressed 0:43:08.719 --> 0:43:12.319 finally and the worst aspects of it are are dealt 0:43:12.400 --> 0:43:15.320 with and like begin to be repaired because of the 0:43:15.480 --> 0:43:18.320 establishment of an organization called the Ministry of the Futures. 0:43:18.320 --> 0:43:21.719 Its international organization that exists to like look out for 0:43:21.800 --> 0:43:25.680 the interests of unborn people and animals and plant species. 0:43:26.080 --> 0:43:27.880 And part of how they do this is by murdering 0:43:27.920 --> 0:43:31.080 billionaires in their beds uh and blowing up planes to 0:43:31.200 --> 0:43:34.040 in international air travel, which is so there's a version. 0:43:34.120 --> 0:43:37.520 Like again, the idea that like, we should be thinking 0:43:37.600 --> 0:43:41.080 about people and and living creatures who have not yet 0:43:41.120 --> 0:43:44.440 been born is reasonable, and the reasonable conclusion of that 0:43:44.640 --> 0:43:47.520 is and so we should deal with things like climate 0:43:47.640 --> 0:43:51.360 change and stop like thoughtlessly degrading our environment so that 0:43:51.600 --> 0:43:54.200 people in the future will be able to live a 0:43:54.320 --> 0:43:58.040 quality life. Um. The argument that these long terms are 0:43:58.080 --> 0:44:00.600 making is no, that's foolish, because in a true billion years, 0:44:00.640 --> 0:44:02.239 none of it will matter. And I intend to be 0:44:02.280 --> 0:44:04.040 alive in a trillion years because I will be an 0:44:04.040 --> 0:44:09.320 immortal machine man billionaire forever. You know, it's about these people, 0:44:09.840 --> 0:44:12.600 these people like you think about this. If you believe this, 0:44:12.760 --> 0:44:15.680 the only literally, the only thing that you should spend 0:44:15.719 --> 0:44:18.080 your time doing is trying to dismantle every single nuclear 0:44:18.120 --> 0:44:20.239 weapon on the planet. Like you, you you should be 0:44:20.320 --> 0:44:23.560 forming your own private armies to like storm military basis 0:44:23.600 --> 0:44:25.959 to destroy nukes. And none of them will ever fucking 0:44:26.000 --> 0:44:27.960 do this. All these people will back candidates who like 0:44:28.080 --> 0:44:29.960 want to have a nuclear weapons. All these people who 0:44:30.040 --> 0:44:32.640 will back candidates who like, like, you know, I I 0:44:33.040 --> 0:44:35.520 wonder how many these people personally supported dropping a nuke 0:44:35.560 --> 0:44:37.080 in the middle of a rock in two thousand four, 0:44:37.239 --> 0:44:45.600 Like god, yeah, anyway, this is probably that's probably enough. 0:44:45.960 --> 0:44:48.279 I wanted to At some point, I think we will 0:44:48.320 --> 0:44:51.359 be doing a more detailed look into some of these people, 0:44:51.440 --> 0:44:53.719 and a more detailed look into some Maybe maybe it's 0:44:53.760 --> 0:44:57.600 a Bastards episode, but this is just getting more relevant, 0:44:57.680 --> 0:44:59.720 and I wanted to give people I wanted to connect 0:44:59.760 --> 0:45:03.760 them with some like some some resources, particularly that article 0:45:03.840 --> 0:45:07.800 on a on about the dangers of long termism and 0:45:08.120 --> 0:45:12.840 uh yeah, anyway, be be advised. This is what the 0:45:12.960 --> 0:45:16.640 fucking assholes who have spent like think about how many 0:45:16.760 --> 0:45:19.000 cool things the tech industry has actually made in the 0:45:19.120 --> 0:45:22.600 last decade. It's it's not many, right, Like it's mostly 0:45:22.719 --> 0:45:25.480 been vaporware, like most of the different big apps and 0:45:25.560 --> 0:45:28.040 stuff have all are in the process of collapsing right now. 0:45:28.120 --> 0:45:31.480 That's why the industry is falling apart as we record 0:45:31.600 --> 0:45:35.200 this in the metaverse. Yeah, that's right, that's right. Legs 0:45:36.080 --> 0:45:38.560 like you're sitting right next to me, James, except for 0:45:38.640 --> 0:45:41.240 you have no laying legs in. Your mouth is opened 0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:48.000 in an endless, wordless scream. Um finally, anyway, that's what 0:45:48.160 --> 0:45:50.440 these assholes want to do, what they've done to the Internet, 0:45:50.880 --> 0:45:54.480 sucking the vibrancy and the life and like the freedom 0:45:54.960 --> 0:45:58.279 out of this this incredible creation and turning it into 0:45:59.080 --> 0:46:02.120 uh an engine for sucking your personal data out and 0:46:02.239 --> 0:46:05.120 marketing things to you and making you angry all the 0:46:05.239 --> 0:46:07.960 time as much as possible, and convincing your parents and 0:46:08.040 --> 0:46:11.600 grandparents that fucking Joe Biden has been replaced by a 0:46:11.719 --> 0:46:15.680 lizard man. Um. Like the people who did that, uh 0:46:16.280 --> 0:46:18.720 now think that we can't take care of people today 0:46:18.800 --> 0:46:21.000 because that would distract from our mission to take care 0:46:21.080 --> 0:46:23.319 of people who have never been born a trillion years 0:46:23.360 --> 0:46:45.680 from now. Um, anyway, fuck them. Everything's dead. Wait no sorry, Um, 0:46:46.120 --> 0:46:50.000 it's it could happen here a podcast about stuff falling 0:46:50.040 --> 0:46:54.200 apart and today about the fact that things fell less 0:46:54.239 --> 0:46:56.720 apart than people were worried they were going to fall apart, 0:46:56.960 --> 0:47:00.960 and in some ways got might get better. So that's 0:47:01.040 --> 0:47:06.520 kind of that's kind of nice. Sure, Yeah, on the whole, 0:47:06.880 --> 0:47:08.920 we're talking about the mid terms today and on the 0:47:09.000 --> 0:47:18.520 whole Okay, I feel okay, an excellent descripture. Yeah, it's 0:47:18.600 --> 0:47:22.320 the mid terms equivalent of getting like an ounce of 0:47:22.640 --> 0:47:25.840 of of like mid grade weed for like fifty bucks, 0:47:26.360 --> 0:47:29.000 but you find out later that like kind of in 0:47:29.040 --> 0:47:31.520 the middle of it was like half of a paper 0:47:31.600 --> 0:47:34.080 towel roll that they stuck in there to push up 0:47:34.120 --> 0:47:37.680 the weight. But it's like, well, at least I got weed. 0:47:38.360 --> 0:47:42.440 All right, I've introduced the podcast Who do We? Who 0:47:42.480 --> 0:47:47.920 do we have here? Today? Oh? You got me? I'm 0:47:48.040 --> 0:47:53.240 James Still that's right. H Yeah, I'm Garrison. I didn't vote. 0:47:55.000 --> 0:47:57.719 Look at you. Wow. Way to be a way to 0:47:57.760 --> 0:48:04.719 be an anarchist, Garrison or can Adien same deaf democracy? Yeah? 0:48:06.480 --> 0:48:10.600 I like committing voter fraud for the Democratic Party. Yeah yeah. 0:48:11.040 --> 0:48:13.920 I also decided to not vote for the people who 0:48:14.000 --> 0:48:17.840 are doing like the war on drugs in California. Right now, Garrison, 0:48:17.960 --> 0:48:21.360 you you continued your your years long tradition of submitting 0:48:21.920 --> 0:48:25.880 a crew drawing of the Premier of Canada um to 0:48:26.480 --> 0:48:30.160 to a ballot box ship. Let's Trudeau coming out of 0:48:30.200 --> 0:48:36.040 a cave. Who else do we have on with us? 0:48:36.160 --> 0:48:42.200 Right now? I'm here, Christopher Wong, and I absolutely despise elections. 0:48:42.600 --> 0:48:47.160 So I brought my friend who actually does like elections 0:48:47.800 --> 0:48:53.480 that's excellent token election in Jordan pretty much. Yes, Hi, 0:48:53.840 --> 0:48:59.239 I am Jack. I am Christopher's token friend, as mentioned um, 0:49:00.040 --> 0:49:03.760 and I'm here partly because of nepotism for knowing Christopher 0:49:03.960 --> 0:49:08.840 and partly because, as he reminded me, before we got started, 0:49:08.960 --> 0:49:12.560 I had a ninety three accurate prediction rating for all 0:49:12.560 --> 0:49:14.640 of the elections that I was paying attention to this year, 0:49:14.840 --> 0:49:20.880 so things, congratulations. I only made one prediction before this election, 0:49:20.920 --> 0:49:23.000 which was, well, he doesn't feel like dr oz is 0:49:23.040 --> 0:49:28.520 gonna win, which which means you did better than a 0:49:28.640 --> 0:49:31.680 lot of the people who are paid to do this. Like, Okay, 0:49:32.000 --> 0:49:37.200 that man, that man said the word crew didtay in 0:49:37.280 --> 0:49:42.759 an election in Pennsylvania, Like there was he was never good. 0:49:42.880 --> 0:49:45.840 The moment that d came out, he was going to lose. 0:49:48.040 --> 0:49:51.960 That's much more nuanced than my my political analysis, which 0:49:52.080 --> 0:49:55.040 was the fact that the other guy was much taller 0:49:55.120 --> 0:49:58.320 than him and also way hot. Like if they just 0:49:58.880 --> 0:50:01.520 settled it with a fistfight, Pat could have taken it. Yep, 0:50:01.760 --> 0:50:04.440 which that seems good. Uh, it was fun. It was 0:50:04.480 --> 0:50:06.480 a fun election. We all had a good time. I 0:50:06.680 --> 0:50:11.360 enjoy that. Fucking Marjorie Taylor Green and j d vance 0:50:11.520 --> 0:50:13.800 are going to be in Congress together. That's going to 0:50:13.880 --> 0:50:15.759 be fun for everybody. We're all gonna have a good time. 0:50:17.280 --> 0:50:19.560 But I suspect there's probably some stuff we haven't like. 0:50:19.760 --> 0:50:22.799 As you may have noticed listeners, we didn't do much 0:50:22.840 --> 0:50:25.320 in the way of pre mid term content because we 0:50:25.400 --> 0:50:30.120 all hate it. But but now now we're talking about it. 0:50:30.239 --> 0:50:33.359 So what what? What? What should we know about these 0:50:33.440 --> 0:50:35.520 mid terms? What? What? What kind of occurred to you 0:50:35.600 --> 0:50:38.680 as somebody who's like actually has spent a lot more 0:50:38.760 --> 0:50:41.440 time delving into the nitty gritty and thinking about what 0:50:41.640 --> 0:50:46.600 was likely to happen. Um. So I told Christopher I 0:50:46.640 --> 0:50:49.759 would say this, and in varness, I do genuinely believe it. 0:50:50.280 --> 0:50:54.200 I think the story of these mid terms, when historians 0:50:54.239 --> 0:50:57.240 look back at it, will be that the Dobbs Supreme 0:50:57.280 --> 0:51:00.239 Court decision had the same electoral impact in the United 0:51:00.280 --> 0:51:03.160 States as nine eleven did. I think that is going 0:51:03.239 --> 0:51:05.879 to be like how this plays out over time, um, 0:51:06.320 --> 0:51:10.280 because when you look at how things were going before 0:51:10.360 --> 0:51:14.920 Dabbs and then how things were going after Dabbs, obviously 0:51:15.000 --> 0:51:16.839 things got a lot worse on the policy front because 0:51:16.840 --> 0:51:19.840 abortion became illegal in a lot of states. Um. But 0:51:19.960 --> 0:51:23.759 the election essentially flipped overnight from what was going to 0:51:23.800 --> 0:51:28.439 be a Republican wave to the even split that we got. 0:51:29.200 --> 0:51:33.279 And that makes this one of three post World War 0:51:33.360 --> 0:51:36.560 two midterms where the incumbent party did well, and so 0:51:37.160 --> 0:51:39.000 this is definitely going to be aim in term that 0:51:39.080 --> 0:51:42.759 gets lectured about in policy one on one courses for 0:51:42.800 --> 0:51:45.239 the next hundred years. Also one of those, one of 0:51:45.280 --> 0:51:49.759 those other three was to push le because it was yeah, yeah, 0:51:50.000 --> 0:51:53.600 actually really because obviously I was aware, just because there 0:51:53.719 --> 0:51:55.440 was so much coverage saying like, this is the best 0:51:55.520 --> 0:51:58.200 performance from an incumbent party in a mid term since 0:51:58.280 --> 0:52:00.680 two thousand two. So it was aware of that fact, 0:52:00.840 --> 0:52:03.239 but for some reason I hadn't put it together in 0:52:03.360 --> 0:52:08.000 my head that way that like, yeah, the this means that, 0:52:08.160 --> 0:52:11.719 like the Supreme Court's decision on Roevie Wade had kind 0:52:11.760 --> 0:52:15.279 of a comparable electoral impact to flying two planes into 0:52:15.360 --> 0:52:18.799 a pair of skyscrapers, said the Pentagon plates. I mean, 0:52:19.400 --> 0:52:21.960 to be fair whatever, to be fair, there Spreme Court 0:52:22.080 --> 0:52:25.160 have killed Like in terms of the immediate impact, the 0:52:25.200 --> 0:52:27.279 Screme Court will have killed more people than that by 0:52:27.360 --> 0:52:32.400 like Thursday or something. So yeah. The other one was 0:52:33.040 --> 0:52:36.520 was fdos fest made term right. Uh No, the other 0:52:36.600 --> 0:52:38.799 one so that so I said, post Woe War two. 0:52:40.080 --> 0:52:43.120 The other The other one was when the American electorate 0:52:43.200 --> 0:52:46.120 apparently got so mad at Republicans in p team Bill 0:52:46.160 --> 0:52:48.719 Clinton that they decided to vote for Democrats in a 0:52:48.760 --> 0:52:51.719 good term. Again. Well that's yeah, that's the other thing 0:52:51.800 --> 0:52:53.799 Biden can do if it, if it goes south. It's 0:52:53.800 --> 0:52:58.080 good to know their uptions. Yeah, but I think non 0:52:58.280 --> 0:53:00.400 zero chance that will happen any way. I mean, I 0:53:00.400 --> 0:53:04.960 guess we're still waiting. Who knows. Yeah, dog Brandon, I 0:53:05.200 --> 0:53:09.600 enjoyed from from an entertainment perspective, the like three months 0:53:09.640 --> 0:53:11.920 of lucidity that we got out of Joe Biden this year. 0:53:12.000 --> 0:53:14.919 We'll see how many more he has in him. Yeah, 0:53:15.640 --> 0:53:21.600 who knows? So yeah, like it. So you're you're suggesting 0:53:21.640 --> 0:53:24.200 that Dobbs has been like the really pivotal thing here 0:53:24.239 --> 0:53:28.359 in swinging a lot of these close races, right, absolutely, um, 0:53:28.760 --> 0:53:32.600 and Dobbs definitely being the number one factor. Um. Tragically, 0:53:32.960 --> 0:53:36.680 because it's very cringe and I wish this hadn't happened. 0:53:37.160 --> 0:53:40.279 The January six investigation does actually seem to have also 0:53:40.400 --> 0:53:46.000 swung several important races. That's I mean, I'm interested in 0:53:46.040 --> 0:53:49.200 your thoughts on this, but I actually I'm glad that 0:53:49.360 --> 0:53:52.040 it mattered that they tried to do a coup, and 0:53:53.880 --> 0:53:57.600 I'm glad that people cared about that. I'm glad it mattered. 0:53:58.120 --> 0:53:59.920 I just I just think it sucks that because the 0:54:00.000 --> 0:54:05.399 way they went about the investigation was so incredibly terrible. Yeah. Um, 0:54:05.680 --> 0:54:07.640 like Marrick Garland is going to go down as like 0:54:07.719 --> 0:54:10.240 one of the most cowardly attorney generals in American history. 0:54:10.680 --> 0:54:13.840 But um, yeah, it's it's pretty clear that in a 0:54:13.960 --> 0:54:16.720 lot of races like the the investigation made a difference. 0:54:16.800 --> 0:54:19.000 I think this is really clear if we're getting into 0:54:19.360 --> 0:54:24.600 like very kind of under the hood. Um, Democrats ran 0:54:24.680 --> 0:54:28.920 the table in competitive state level secretary of state races, 0:54:28.960 --> 0:54:32.279 and these are the officials that run elections. UM. And 0:54:32.360 --> 0:54:34.919 not only did Democrats run the table, pretty much every 0:54:34.960 --> 0:54:38.280 single one of those candidates outperformed the top of the ticket. 0:54:38.360 --> 0:54:41.560 So they outperformed governor and Senate candidates. UM. So there 0:54:41.680 --> 0:54:44.040 are a lot of people. This is another big story 0:54:44.120 --> 0:54:46.800 the midterms is that swing voter. Your swing voting is 0:54:46.880 --> 0:54:51.359 back not swing voting, I'm sorry, Split ticket voting is back. Um, 0:54:52.120 --> 0:54:54.520 there were quite a few there were quite a few 0:54:54.600 --> 0:54:58.880 millions of voters this year who voted for Republican in 0:54:58.960 --> 0:55:00.920 the Senate or Republican and for governor and then a 0:55:01.000 --> 0:55:05.239 Democrat to run their states actual elections. That's kind of good. 0:55:05.280 --> 0:55:09.760 It's so that's also like speaks promisingly of people's engagement 0:55:09.840 --> 0:55:12.480 with the political system and education about it and the 0:55:12.840 --> 0:55:16.880 awareness of what these different things do. Yes, um, but 0:55:17.120 --> 0:55:20.520 other like like that, other than that, but just overall 0:55:20.800 --> 0:55:26.000 high level Dobbs was the big one. Um. There is 0:55:26.680 --> 0:55:30.719 a person whose name I'm going to unfortunately mispronounce and 0:55:30.800 --> 0:55:32.640 that I should have looked up beforehand. So all right, 0:55:32.719 --> 0:55:35.400 this is a safe place for that, thank you. But 0:55:35.520 --> 0:55:38.120 there's a person there's a guy down in Louisiana named 0:55:38.200 --> 0:55:41.200 John uh cool Van I think is my best guests, 0:55:41.320 --> 0:55:43.160 And he is one of the people who makes money 0:55:43.360 --> 0:55:47.839 off of like looking at elections, um. And his big 0:55:48.000 --> 0:55:51.640 thing is that you can predict the outcome of elections 0:55:52.360 --> 0:55:56.520 just by looking at the nationwide composition of the primary electorate. 0:55:56.960 --> 0:55:59.799 So like, if Republicans turn out more voters in their 0:56:00.000 --> 0:56:02.360 primaries and Democrats to Republicans are going to win the 0:56:02.400 --> 0:56:05.520 election and vice versa. This has been true in pretty 0:56:05.600 --> 0:56:08.360 much every single election for the last thirty years or 0:56:08.440 --> 0:56:14.160 so UM, and he unfortunately got led astray um this 0:56:14.360 --> 0:56:18.040 year because nationwide at the end of the primary season, 0:56:18.120 --> 0:56:20.320 Republicans were up by about like five points, and so 0:56:20.480 --> 0:56:24.120 he was insisting the whole rest of the campaign that 0:56:24.200 --> 0:56:27.760 Republicans are going to win. That's obviously not really what happened. 0:56:28.200 --> 0:56:32.200 But if you look at pre Dbs versus post OBS, 0:56:33.040 --> 0:56:38.200 the primary elector at post OBS was Democrats plus like 0:56:38.400 --> 0:56:40.600 up by one point. That is the electorate that we 0:56:40.760 --> 0:56:45.560 got in the mid terms. So Dobbs set the tone 0:56:45.719 --> 0:56:47.920 of like what the mid terms were gonna be, Um, 0:56:48.560 --> 0:56:52.080 because we are not going to be legalizing abortion nationwide 0:56:52.320 --> 0:56:54.120 in the next two years, because we are going to 0:56:54.239 --> 0:56:58.040 have a Republican House almost certainly Dobbs is almost definitely 0:56:58.080 --> 0:56:59.920 going to be a huge factor in twenty four as well. 0:57:03.520 --> 0:57:07.520 I mean, and I guess that, like because the question 0:57:07.600 --> 0:57:09.239 I had, and I think a lot of people had 0:57:09.600 --> 0:57:12.840 running into this, especially people who are not election lovers, 0:57:12.960 --> 0:57:17.560 is like do things matter? Right? Like? It was Dobbs 0:57:17.600 --> 0:57:20.720 going to matter? And was the were the constant sort 0:57:20.760 --> 0:57:24.560 of Republican assaults on on the ability of people to vote. 0:57:24.680 --> 0:57:29.080 Was the fucking attacks on children's hospitals and on trans 0:57:29.160 --> 0:57:31.800 case and stuff like, was all of that going to work? 0:57:31.880 --> 0:57:36.600 Like do do things matter still? And uh, you know, 0:57:36.800 --> 0:57:39.760 we'll have to renswer that question. But it does kind 0:57:39.800 --> 0:57:42.760 of seem like that's the positive take out from this 0:57:43.120 --> 0:57:47.480 is not like, you know, it's it's probably probably too 0:57:47.560 --> 0:57:50.080 early to say are we seeing some sort of grand 0:57:50.200 --> 0:57:53.479 progressive swing or are people coming around on or Biden 0:57:53.600 --> 0:57:56.040 or whatever things politicos want to take. But it does 0:57:56.160 --> 0:57:59.120 kind of seem that, like on a on a very 0:57:59.240 --> 0:58:03.840 like ground floor level. Uh, it mattered that the Republicans 0:58:03.920 --> 0:58:09.040 were doing awful things, Yes, mattered. Um, I think Christopher 0:58:09.080 --> 0:58:11.560 and I have talked about how, in his words, Leah 0:58:11.600 --> 0:58:15.200 Thomas cost the Michigan Republican Party in the election. Uh, 0:58:15.920 --> 0:58:18.200 let's let's talk about that, because I think a lot 0:58:18.280 --> 0:58:22.439 of people, I mean, yeah, let's yeah, let's talk about Okay, 0:58:22.480 --> 0:58:25.600 I'll give the I'll give the meme version of it first. 0:58:25.760 --> 0:58:28.240 The meme version of it basically is that there was Okay, 0:58:28.280 --> 0:58:31.360 so there there there was a report released by the 0:58:32.160 --> 0:58:35.720 Republican Party in Michigan after the election when they sort 0:58:35.720 --> 0:58:38.080 of got hammered, and part of what they're talking about 0:58:38.200 --> 0:58:42.959 was like, okay, so inflation is like seven point seven 0:58:43.000 --> 0:58:45.640 percent right now, right, this is the freest election anyone 0:58:45.680 --> 0:58:49.920 has ever been handed, like in human history, Like a 0:58:50.360 --> 0:58:53.520 child could have won this election, and the Republicans managed 0:58:53.520 --> 0:58:56.760 to blow it. And one of these they talk about 0:58:56.760 --> 0:59:00.360 this they spent they spent like twenty five million olders, 0:59:00.760 --> 0:59:05.120 like specifically on ads about trans like trans kids in sports, 0:59:06.200 --> 0:59:09.400 and everybody missed it. Was just like what the yes, 0:59:09.520 --> 0:59:14.240 this really not just not just blew it, but blew 0:59:14.280 --> 0:59:15.760 it in a way that they haven't blown it in 0:59:15.960 --> 0:59:18.800 forty years. Because for the first time in forty years, 0:59:18.920 --> 0:59:23.360 Democrats will have complete control of the Michigan state government. Yeah. Yeah, 0:59:23.480 --> 0:59:25.280 And it's like it's like the other things. It wasn't 0:59:25.320 --> 0:59:28.840 just in Michigan where this happened, right like like quite possibly, 0:59:29.040 --> 0:59:31.520 like one of the ways they're going to lose the 0:59:31.640 --> 0:59:34.760 Senate is because like the Republicans like entire sort of 0:59:35.360 --> 0:59:38.640 apparatus and Nevada was running against the Equal Rights Amendments, 0:59:39.160 --> 0:59:41.640 which and specifically they were running against the equal Nevada 0:59:41.680 --> 0:59:44.320 passing University of the Equal Rights Amendment, like specifically on 0:59:44.360 --> 0:59:47.560 the grounds of transphobia, and the e ARRA passed by 0:59:47.840 --> 0:59:53.439 seventeen points. Uh, and Republicans are about to lose that Senate. See. 0:59:53.480 --> 0:59:56.320 And it's just like my main version of this is 0:59:56.360 --> 0:59:59.480 that the Republican Party ran a platform that is like 1:00:00.000 --> 1:00:04.560 a political equivalent of like a street preacher, right, like 1:00:04.640 --> 1:00:06.520 that that is the constituency for this. It is like 1:00:06.840 --> 1:00:11.800 they unbelievably hate trans people. They like an unbelievably hard 1:00:11.880 --> 1:00:14.680 line anti abortion position, which again like nobody actually likes. 1:00:15.240 --> 1:00:17.040 And you know, it turns out like if if if 1:00:17.280 --> 1:00:19.800 your constituency is street preachers, like the thing an average 1:00:19.880 --> 1:00:22.640 person does when they run into a street preacher is 1:00:22.720 --> 1:00:26.320 walked past them. And it turns out that's what happened 1:00:26.320 --> 1:00:29.920 to you, Like they got oh that's that's that's the 1:00:30.040 --> 1:00:32.680 mean version of it. Absolutely, I mean that's not just 1:00:32.800 --> 1:00:35.280 the mean version of it is essentially what happened, um 1:00:35.480 --> 1:00:38.320 in Michigan and Pennsylvania, in all of these states where 1:00:38.720 --> 1:00:42.600 hard line Christian nationalists won Republican primaries, like they went 1:00:42.680 --> 1:00:46.560 down hard um and so as Robert said, yeah, things 1:00:46.960 --> 1:00:50.640 actually mattered this election, and that's a good thing. Um. 1:00:51.080 --> 1:00:55.200 And I think I know for me, as like, I 1:00:55.320 --> 1:00:58.760 went into election night very nervous about my own predictions 1:00:58.840 --> 1:01:03.800 because when I put together my UM Google spreadsheet that 1:01:03.880 --> 1:01:05.440 will never be shown to any of you because of 1:01:05.480 --> 1:01:10.280 how insane it is UM. And I was picking, you know, 1:01:10.800 --> 1:01:13.760 I got more races wrong, by the way, by picking 1:01:13.880 --> 1:01:16.800 Republicans to win that Democrats actually one than the other 1:01:16.840 --> 1:01:19.920 way around, because I kept second guessing myself. It's like, no, no, no, 1:01:20.080 --> 1:01:22.680 I'm not I'm being too kind to Democrats and then 1:01:22.720 --> 1:01:28.480 I went too far. But when I was making those predictions, honestly, 1:01:28.560 --> 1:01:30.560 I just kept thinking about, like, so I'm adopted. My 1:01:30.680 --> 1:01:32.600 parents are both white, and my mom is this like 1:01:32.720 --> 1:01:37.960 white woman from Appalachian, Ohio, and she is UM in 1:01:38.080 --> 1:01:41.280 her upper sixties, so she grew up in a world 1:01:41.480 --> 1:01:47.800 before Roe V. Wade UM, and I had never seen 1:01:47.960 --> 1:01:53.680 my mom so angry about anything in politics, and like 1:01:53.760 --> 1:01:57.920 she was very very angry when Trump won UM. She 1:01:58.160 --> 1:02:00.400 has been very angry. She's been very angry about like 1:02:00.560 --> 1:02:02.560 January six. She's been angry about a lot of stuff 1:02:02.560 --> 1:02:05.320 the last several years, as is my dad UM because 1:02:05.320 --> 1:02:11.760 they're both very normally Democrats. But my mom has never 1:02:11.880 --> 1:02:14.160 been angrier as far as I've seen her than she 1:02:14.360 --> 1:02:17.720 was angrier about Dobbs. And it wasn't just like my mom. 1:02:17.760 --> 1:02:21.280 I was hearing from friends of mine from across the 1:02:21.360 --> 1:02:27.000 Midwest who also have like normy white suburban parents, and 1:02:27.120 --> 1:02:28.760 that was kind of the same thing that I was 1:02:28.840 --> 1:02:30.520 hearing from them too, is like, my mom is so 1:02:30.640 --> 1:02:32.840 upset about this, my grandmother is so upset about this. 1:02:32.920 --> 1:02:35.040 These women who remembered what it was like to grow 1:02:35.200 --> 1:02:37.760 up in a world where abortion was not something that 1:02:38.120 --> 1:02:42.840 they had access to if they needed it, um. And that, honestly, 1:02:42.920 --> 1:02:46.200 you know, it's it's obviously completely anecdotal. It's not databased 1:02:46.320 --> 1:02:47.880 or data driven in any way. But that was just 1:02:48.040 --> 1:02:52.120 what I kept thinking about as I was making predictions 1:02:52.160 --> 1:02:54.000 about how the mid term was gonna go, was you know, 1:02:54.240 --> 1:02:57.840 I think that these people are angry enough that they 1:02:57.880 --> 1:03:00.640 are not going to care about and Saan, They're not 1:03:00.680 --> 1:03:02.480 going to care about the fact that our economy is 1:03:02.640 --> 1:03:06.320 very clearly headed for recession, um, because this is going 1:03:06.360 --> 1:03:11.040 to matter more to them, um, And it did. I 1:03:11.120 --> 1:03:13.840 kind of want to move on to talking about what 1:03:14.800 --> 1:03:19.760 what we think this sets us up for because I 1:03:19.880 --> 1:03:23.000 think the clearest and we talked about this a little earlier, 1:03:23.080 --> 1:03:26.280 but sort of the clearest thing that's positive about this 1:03:26.560 --> 1:03:30.360 is that we have fewer state secretaries of state and 1:03:30.400 --> 1:03:34.560 state legislatures in the hands of the Republican Party, which 1:03:34.640 --> 1:03:38.000 means more of a chance that like what people actually 1:03:38.600 --> 1:03:43.000 vote for is going to matter. Um. Now, we're still 1:03:43.120 --> 1:03:46.360 dealing with the judiciary that is as fucked as it 1:03:46.520 --> 1:03:50.040 was prior to the mid terms and probably won't be 1:03:50.280 --> 1:03:55.160 less fucked in a way that is notable. Um and aggregate, Yeah, 1:03:55.560 --> 1:03:59.120 we can. We can always hope and pray. Yeah, they 1:03:59.160 --> 1:04:05.160 can to be a couple of very specific yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:04:05.280 --> 1:04:08.400 yeah on that point. Actually, So there I know a 1:04:08.560 --> 1:04:12.200 bang on about about like how the United States deals 1:04:12.200 --> 1:04:15.520 with its Indigenous people a lot, but like they slated 1:04:15.680 --> 1:04:17.400 and we'll do an episode on it, but we're trying 1:04:17.400 --> 1:04:21.080 to do it properly. Like slated for this Supreme Court 1:04:21.120 --> 1:04:23.520 session is to look at AQUA right, the Indian Child 1:04:23.600 --> 1:04:28.080 Welfare Act, and like the challenge to it challenges a 1:04:28.200 --> 1:04:32.840 lot of the basis of other tribal law and in 1:04:33.120 --> 1:04:37.360 places like Arizona, right, like indigenous people are a large 1:04:37.520 --> 1:04:40.120 like often like they're supposed to be, like the swing 1:04:40.200 --> 1:04:44.840 electorate for like Blue Arizona. So they could have positive 1:04:44.880 --> 1:04:48.000 outcomes for for Democrats. It could. They could. I don't 1:04:48.000 --> 1:04:49.160 know how they could go out their way to do 1:04:49.280 --> 1:04:51.360 in French trans indigenous people, but they find you and 1:04:51.400 --> 1:04:54.240 exciting ways to do it all the fucking time, So 1:04:54.440 --> 1:04:58.560 like that will be interesting. And one thing I wanted 1:04:58.640 --> 1:05:01.600 to raise is like, so I live in California, which 1:05:01.600 --> 1:05:04.000 I think is seen as like the left coast and stuff, 1:05:04.000 --> 1:05:07.120 but we have an alarming amount of really chuddly people 1:05:07.200 --> 1:05:12.960 going to the House from California, And yeah, it's becoming 1:05:13.040 --> 1:05:15.120 increasingly a bit like well, like some of you live 1:05:15.160 --> 1:05:17.640 in Oregon, where you have a very dif the far 1:05:17.760 --> 1:05:20.600 right in California is larger than the population of like 1:05:21.360 --> 1:05:27.240 many United US states. Yeah, yes, and they're increasingly big 1:05:27.320 --> 1:05:32.240 mad about like small things. But yeah, like I'm just 1:05:32.320 --> 1:05:34.400 looking at the districts around the one I'm in, and 1:05:34.680 --> 1:05:38.960 a number of them have sent like anti reproductive rights 1:05:39.320 --> 1:05:44.520 house representatives back to the House. California is a state where, um, 1:05:45.320 --> 1:05:48.280 the Democratic Party likes to flop its way to victory. 1:05:48.800 --> 1:05:51.760 It's one of it's one of the most incompetent state 1:05:51.840 --> 1:05:54.439 Democratic parties in the country, which is really saying something 1:05:54.480 --> 1:06:00.280 because they're competing. They're competing with they're competing with Florida. Like, 1:06:00.600 --> 1:06:03.160 I mean, hey, Oregon's not didn't do great either, Like 1:06:03.280 --> 1:06:06.000 the state Democratic Party in Oregon had their most narrow 1:06:06.680 --> 1:06:11.240 governor's race in a long time, and also the Dems 1:06:11.280 --> 1:06:14.440 lost their their supermajority in the state Congress. They did 1:06:14.520 --> 1:06:18.040 lose their supermajority, but Democrats in Oregon do now have 1:06:18.640 --> 1:06:23.040 the ability to redistrict again so they can take back 1:06:23.160 --> 1:06:28.280 that seat that Republicans picked up because there was a 1:06:28.400 --> 1:06:31.360 constitutional amendment that got passed by the voters of Oregon 1:06:32.160 --> 1:06:34.960 that says that if Republicans do what they have done 1:06:35.040 --> 1:06:37.080 in the last few years in Oregon, which is walk 1:06:37.120 --> 1:06:40.120 out of the state House anytime that a lot might pass, 1:06:40.520 --> 1:06:43.840 they get banned for running for re election. But also, 1:06:44.080 --> 1:06:46.640 like without the supermajority, I don't know that there's as 1:06:46.720 --> 1:06:49.320 much of any I mean, we'll see what happens um, 1:06:50.360 --> 1:06:53.400 but yeah, it's there. As a general rule, it seems 1:06:53.440 --> 1:06:57.800 like when you've got there's no meaningful competition for what 1:06:58.040 --> 1:06:59.840 party is going to be in control of the state, 1:07:00.400 --> 1:07:05.480 it becomes a haven for like the political equivalent of grifters. 1:07:05.640 --> 1:07:10.640 To sucking huge salaries and do very little um and yeah, 1:07:11.400 --> 1:07:16.840 yeah like math or to do like star mare look 1:07:16.920 --> 1:07:23.240 at that. Also yeah, and she's up for re election 1:07:23.560 --> 1:07:25.280 in a few months. Then we can only hope that 1:07:25.320 --> 1:07:29.400 she that she loses. I can't imagine her winning. I mean, 1:07:29.560 --> 1:07:34.520 it could happen. If it could happen, it could happen. 1:07:34.560 --> 1:07:39.080 Here's here's an ad break. Good work, Garrison. Yeah, what 1:07:39.200 --> 1:07:45.080 a professional. Ah. We're back. And you know what talking 1:07:45.120 --> 1:07:49.880 about the midterm elections makes me feel like doing smoking 1:07:49.880 --> 1:07:53.560 a cigarette? Buy cigarettes, kids, They're is good for you 1:07:53.680 --> 1:07:59.520 as democracy. All right, we're back. In some other interesting news. 1:07:59.600 --> 1:08:04.560 This is so the this this pessimn terms had more 1:08:04.720 --> 1:08:08.040 lgbt Q candidates win office than ever before in a 1:08:08.320 --> 1:08:13.920 midterm election. There was a few notable winds, specifically with 1:08:14.040 --> 1:08:19.280 trans people in the Midwest actually, which has been probably 1:08:19.640 --> 1:08:22.640 a decent side. It's it's a good side. You know, 1:08:23.960 --> 1:08:28.559 heroes are doing good. Yeah. There's been a multiple multiple 1:08:28.600 --> 1:08:32.200 trans people and trans uh particularly quite a few trans 1:08:32.280 --> 1:08:37.479 women elected to state legislatives across across the Midwest, like 1:08:37.560 --> 1:08:55.680 in Montana and inside uh Midwestern that out yeah, well 1:08:57.080 --> 1:09:00.120 Mountain West. See, well, the thing is I grew up 1:09:00.120 --> 1:09:03.880 in Saskatchewan, which is like above Montana, and whenever you 1:09:03.920 --> 1:09:06.000 would drive down, we would always stay in the more 1:09:06.120 --> 1:09:09.759 midwest east sections, and everyone talks it felt very Midwest 1:09:09.840 --> 1:09:12.600 to me because of where I lived in Saskatchewan. So 1:09:12.760 --> 1:09:23.280 apology of apologies to people who are Montana mountaineers, I guess, apologies, No, No, 1:09:23.680 --> 1:09:30.280 we don't need to be so. Zoe Zephyr, who testified 1:09:30.360 --> 1:09:34.080 against anti trans legislation previously, is now able to vote 1:09:34.120 --> 1:09:38.320 against it. Um in Minnesota talked about that, like very briefly, 1:09:38.400 --> 1:09:40.800 which is that like, okay, there are a lot of 1:09:40.880 --> 1:09:45.320 queer communities in places that people just fucking ignore. Yeah, 1:09:45.800 --> 1:09:49.880 absolutely can you cannot discount these places. Yeah, It's like 1:09:50.040 --> 1:09:55.519 Missoula specifically has has a like like pretty substitutve queer community. 1:09:55.720 --> 1:09:57.800 They do good ship, they're out there like they're like 1:09:58.960 --> 1:10:01.080 there's there's this sort of tendency I think to like 1:10:02.240 --> 1:10:03.920 like look at like a state and go like, oh, 1:10:03.960 --> 1:10:06.120 it's a red state, Like there's whatever the commune which 1:10:06.120 --> 1:10:07.599 you were just fleeing, and it's like it's not true. 1:10:07.680 --> 1:10:09.280 Like there there are a lot of people who are 1:10:10.120 --> 1:10:12.559 like have for many years been building a community there 1:10:12.560 --> 1:10:15.839 and hanging auccenaciously and building it. And also in Missoula, 1:10:16.360 --> 1:10:19.439 people take notice. Also in Missoula, the first non binary 1:10:20.080 --> 1:10:24.519 candidate was elected in uh s J. Howell so to 1:10:24.920 --> 1:10:30.160 uh to trans people elected there in in uh in Missoula. 1:10:30.640 --> 1:10:33.160 But the way did did did did Missoula Missoula do this? 1:10:33.240 --> 1:10:39.240 People in Portland would fall probably, but Portland's Portland's like 1:10:39.920 --> 1:10:44.599 city councils like four people. Yeah that's true, Yeah, entirely. Yeah, 1:10:44.760 --> 1:10:49.360 and it was pretty conservative that this past election actually, um, 1:10:49.960 --> 1:10:54.559 but we also had in Minnesota lay a thing because 1:10:54.600 --> 1:10:56.840 the first trans person in state let us, let let 1:10:56.920 --> 1:11:00.240 us later. And in New Hampshire they elected the first 1:11:00.320 --> 1:11:05.080 transman to a US Statehouse. So yeah. And the other 1:11:05.120 --> 1:11:08.479 other good thing is um Arizona got a Democratic governor, 1:11:08.960 --> 1:11:13.160 which means a whole bunch of potential legislation will probably 1:11:13.360 --> 1:11:17.040 not get signed on because Arizona did have some pretty 1:11:17.439 --> 1:11:19.960 pretty pretty bad anti transport to come up in the 1:11:20.040 --> 1:11:22.800 past few years. I also want to talk about. So 1:11:22.920 --> 1:11:26.880 the Arizona election was critical, not just because it's amazing 1:11:27.000 --> 1:11:29.400 that fucking carry Lake's not going to be a governor, 1:11:29.439 --> 1:11:34.360 because she is an election denying Google. Um, but the 1:11:34.560 --> 1:11:39.240 nicest thing Blake Masters might be the scariest person who 1:11:39.320 --> 1:11:42.080 was running for election. He is he is the scariest 1:11:43.880 --> 1:11:48.160 he was for serial killer. Yeah yeah, yeah he was. 1:11:48.320 --> 1:11:51.120 He was scary until he was funny, is the thing, 1:11:51.200 --> 1:11:54.519 because like I you know, when they failed, they're always funny. Yeah. 1:11:54.640 --> 1:11:57.280 But Christopher and I were talking about this before the 1:11:57.360 --> 1:12:01.599 podcast and like during the during the final debate between 1:12:01.880 --> 1:12:05.040 Blake Masters and Mark Kelly, like and I want to 1:12:05.120 --> 1:12:09.719 swear on this podcast, like we're allowed to say whatever 1:12:09.800 --> 1:12:15.240 the hell we want, perfect um debate. In their final 1:12:15.360 --> 1:12:19.840 debate between Mark Kelly and Blake Masters, Mark Kelly's like 1:12:20.000 --> 1:12:23.800 final statement, his conclusion argument was essentially pointing at Blake 1:12:23.880 --> 1:12:27.240 Masters and going, look at this fucking freak. Yeah. Yeah, 1:12:27.400 --> 1:12:29.720 it was great. It was just the which is one 1:12:29.760 --> 1:12:32.360 of the most powerful things he could do in pols 1:12:32.400 --> 1:12:35.160 because he was he was just like, like the specific 1:12:35.240 --> 1:12:38.000 thing he did because his language was was I think 1:12:38.040 --> 1:12:40.760 a lot more nuanced than that, because what he was 1:12:40.800 --> 1:12:43.320 saying is Blake Masters, for those of you who don't 1:12:43.320 --> 1:12:46.120 don't know, like one of the most like famous moments 1:12:46.160 --> 1:12:49.320 of this campaign is he he put out a campaign 1:12:49.360 --> 1:12:52.920 ad that was just him parking in the desert with 1:12:53.040 --> 1:13:00.720 a silenced handgun mentioned which is a child gun first off, 1:13:00.760 --> 1:13:04.200 but anyway, mentioning twice that the gun was German and 1:13:04.320 --> 1:13:10.439 like Germans to arrested, and then firing it blindly at nothing, 1:13:10.840 --> 1:13:14.679 and then the ad he fired it across the lake. Yeah, 1:13:15.680 --> 1:13:17.880 we don't see him shoot at something. We don't see 1:13:17.920 --> 1:13:21.559 him hit a target. He is his stances dogs anyway. 1:13:22.040 --> 1:13:25.280 But it's just him taking a silence pistol out repeatedly 1:13:25.360 --> 1:13:28.200 mentioning that the gun is German, firing it, and then 1:13:28.280 --> 1:13:33.439 the ad ends that's the whole a seconds of him 1:13:33.520 --> 1:13:37.360 just fondling and badly shooting it. It's worth giving the 1:13:37.439 --> 1:13:40.599 context that the person he's running against is someone whose 1:13:40.680 --> 1:13:44.679 wife was shot in the head. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:13:44.800 --> 1:13:50.880 because d so that's but it's also just like, look, 1:13:51.200 --> 1:13:53.439 guns are a big part of American life. A lot 1:13:53.479 --> 1:13:56.880 of politicians have, including Democrats, have ads that involved guns, 1:13:56.960 --> 1:14:00.400 and usually it's like here is me hunting, you know, 1:14:00.840 --> 1:14:03.679 or even like here is me at the range with friends, 1:14:03.760 --> 1:14:07.160 engaging in a thing that many Americans do. Masters was 1:14:07.320 --> 1:14:11.400 just blindly shooting a twenty two caliber handgun after immediately 1:14:11.479 --> 1:14:14.639 mentioning that it's chairman. It was it was like someone 1:14:14.680 --> 1:14:17.639 showed an alien like a regular campaign ad of someone 1:14:17.640 --> 1:14:21.240 shooting a gun, and then yes, I mean, it's funny 1:14:21.280 --> 1:14:22.840 that that's the term that you use, because that was 1:14:22.920 --> 1:14:26.080 a term that was flying around like Arizona social media 1:14:26.160 --> 1:14:28.439 the entire campaign. It was like, Blake Bastards looks like 1:14:28.520 --> 1:14:33.920 an alien and you get red with Peter Teel money 1:14:34.000 --> 1:14:36.680 for so so he has this and he has a 1:14:36.720 --> 1:14:39.800 couple of others like he is, he is, he's a 1:14:40.000 --> 1:14:42.760 number one. He worked with Peter Teel for years. Um 1:14:43.240 --> 1:14:46.120 he's doing all sorts of fucking ghoule ship on Twitter, 1:14:46.320 --> 1:14:51.759 like really mask off fascist, unhinged shit. And Mark Kelly 1:14:52.560 --> 1:14:54.679 in the debate isn't just like look at this freak. 1:14:54.720 --> 1:14:57.880 He's like, hey, we all know guys like this to 1:14:58.040 --> 1:15:00.640 talk about how dangerous and how scary they are, but 1:15:00.760 --> 1:15:04.960 they they've never done anything. They're just like weirdos trying 1:15:05.040 --> 1:15:09.120 to scare you so that you'll think that they're they're powerful, 1:15:09.280 --> 1:15:12.000 and like, don't don't fall forward it And it was 1:15:12.960 --> 1:15:15.720 perfect and the good news is that Arizona voters did 1:15:15.800 --> 1:15:18.840 not fall for it, because you know, not only did 1:15:18.920 --> 1:15:23.680 Blake Masters lose by the best performing Republicans in Arizona 1:15:23.720 --> 1:15:28.800 where their House candidates, like the statewide House popular vote 1:15:28.840 --> 1:15:31.560 for the for U S Congress, not the Statehouse was 1:15:31.960 --> 1:15:34.000 I think Republicans want it or going to win it 1:15:34.080 --> 1:15:39.040 by like five. So Carli Lake already drastically underperformed that 1:15:39.240 --> 1:15:41.519 by six because she's gonna lose. And then to Blake 1:15:41.560 --> 1:15:48.640 Masters underperformed his House candidates by like ten or eleven. Unbelievable. 1:15:49.600 --> 1:15:52.320 It's it's I mean it. It really goes to show 1:15:53.120 --> 1:15:57.479 that whatever most Americans want, they don't want a fucking 1:15:57.960 --> 1:16:04.080 weirdo fascist freak threatening uh there an astronaut's wife with 1:16:04.160 --> 1:16:09.760 a gun. Yeah. Really briefly, like also like on this note, 1:16:09.960 --> 1:16:12.599 of all of the queer and trans candidates who one 1:16:13.200 --> 1:16:16.400 um I will point out this follows the pattern that 1:16:16.520 --> 1:16:18.760 has taken shape in the last decade, which is that 1:16:19.360 --> 1:16:22.680 these supposedly well not supposedly they are, but like these 1:16:22.760 --> 1:16:25.719 red and purple states in the South and the Midwest 1:16:26.160 --> 1:16:28.320 are sending queer and trans people into the halls of 1:16:28.439 --> 1:16:32.040 power a lot faster than deep blue states on the 1:16:32.120 --> 1:16:36.400 West coast and in the Northeast. The first non unfortunately 1:16:36.439 --> 1:16:40.360 forget their name, but the first non binary state legislator 1:16:40.680 --> 1:16:43.560 in the country was elected in Oklahoma. And they're not 1:16:43.680 --> 1:16:46.479 only non binary, they are black and Muslim non binary. 1:16:47.160 --> 1:16:54.560 UM so it's like you know, these um these communities 1:16:54.920 --> 1:16:58.000 as Christophers like a, these communities do matter, and we 1:16:58.080 --> 1:16:59.960 can't forget about them, we can't abandon them. But all 1:17:00.000 --> 1:17:02.560 so like not just they matter, but like as I 1:17:02.920 --> 1:17:06.960 will happily argue with any political operative from either coast, 1:17:07.880 --> 1:17:09.960 we are much more likely to see some kind of 1:17:10.080 --> 1:17:14.040 progressive or surgeon and resurgeons in this country led by 1:17:14.200 --> 1:17:17.880 candidates out of the South or Midwest than either Yeah. 1:17:17.960 --> 1:17:19.280 Well and like like look at like this is one 1:17:19.320 --> 1:17:20.920 of everythings that that you know, so I have a 1:17:20.960 --> 1:17:25.800 lot of friends in the like Michigan Teachers Union, right 1:17:26.560 --> 1:17:28.920 and you know, like right right now, what is happening 1:17:28.960 --> 1:17:30.920 in the Michigan Like in Michigan is that the teachers 1:17:30.960 --> 1:17:34.439 Union is literally sending lists of laws like to to 1:17:34.600 --> 1:17:36.479 the governor that are like you need to get rid 1:17:36.520 --> 1:17:38.519 of this. And you know, if you like if even 1:17:38.520 --> 1:17:41.000 if you look at like like almost every other democratic 1:17:41.080 --> 1:17:44.519 party like in the country is just constantly at word 1:17:44.520 --> 1:17:48.120 with their teachers unions and you know, and then you 1:17:48.200 --> 1:17:50.640 look at like you look at what's happening in Wisconsin 1:17:50.800 --> 1:17:53.760 and it's like it's like, what's happening in Michigan. Well, 1:17:53.920 --> 1:17:56.400 I also Wisconsin to with like they have a much 1:17:56.439 --> 1:18:00.040 more labor friendly like Democratic Party even like fucking a 1:18:00.120 --> 1:18:04.479 Francisco or like the ghouls in like like honestly the 1:18:04.880 --> 1:18:09.479 ghules in the Chicago machine, right Eric Adams office. Yeah, right, 1:18:09.560 --> 1:18:14.920 Like there's there's there's I don't know, they're like everybody 1:18:15.040 --> 1:18:17.160 doors the Midwest and we're here, damn it, we do 1:18:17.320 --> 1:18:20.400 good things. Well's it's a little bit like I mean, 1:18:20.439 --> 1:18:22.120 it's a little bit of what we were saying earlier 1:18:22.200 --> 1:18:26.479 that like when you've got these states where because of 1:18:26.600 --> 1:18:33.160 the population layout, the Democratic Party doesn't have to struggle 1:18:33.240 --> 1:18:36.160 to actually win for the most part, you're a hell 1:18:36.200 --> 1:18:39.519 of a lot. Number one, the party becomes effectively a cartel. 1:18:39.800 --> 1:18:43.680 So they're very good at stopping any like upstart young progressive, 1:18:43.760 --> 1:18:46.920 non binary, queer trans people from like getting a hold 1:18:47.000 --> 1:18:49.920 on in local politics. You know, we we just had 1:18:50.000 --> 1:18:52.679 the most progressive member of the Portland City Council ousted 1:18:52.800 --> 1:18:57.920 by corporate business interests um and you know it, which 1:18:58.000 --> 1:18:59.479 is very different from the trend that you're seeing in 1:18:59.560 --> 1:19:01.760 places like Montana, and its like Oklahoma with a lot 1:19:01.760 --> 1:19:04.479 of these very progressive, you know, young candidates. And it's 1:19:04.520 --> 1:19:07.720 because UM number one, maybe the state parties are a 1:19:07.760 --> 1:19:09.599 little more willing to throw a hail Mary. But also 1:19:09.720 --> 1:19:14.080 just like those individual people, the people running in the 1:19:14.120 --> 1:19:16.000 folks doing their campaign have had to be a lot 1:19:16.120 --> 1:19:19.920 harder and a lot smarter to survive surrounded by people 1:19:19.960 --> 1:19:25.160 who hate them. And I think also, like there's one 1:19:25.240 --> 1:19:29.519 of the ways that I was pretty sure that this 1:19:29.720 --> 1:19:31.760 wasn't going to be a read tsunami was so I 1:19:31.840 --> 1:19:33.840 have some friends. I have friends who go to Wheaton College, 1:19:34.520 --> 1:19:36.439 And for people who don't know who what Wheaton College is, 1:19:36.600 --> 1:19:40.960 it is like, we're sorry that we're about to inform you. Yeah, 1:19:41.080 --> 1:19:44.160 so Wheaton College is one of like I don't know, 1:19:44.200 --> 1:19:49.080 maybe the second behind like Graham Young, like most right 1:19:49.120 --> 1:19:52.519 wing evangelical college in the US, like they they famously 1:19:52.920 --> 1:19:55.760 it's not as bad as the Liberty Yeah, yeah, it's 1:19:55.800 --> 1:19:58.040 like number three, right, But like so it's this is 1:19:58.120 --> 1:20:02.840 this is like the the intellectual sense of UM, like 1:20:03.040 --> 1:20:06.240 of sort of evangelical politics. Like me, make sure I 1:20:06.280 --> 1:20:09.640 have this right, Yeah, like Billy Graham's family has funneled 1:20:09.720 --> 1:20:12.240 money into Wheaton College for decades in two days now 1:20:12.800 --> 1:20:16.719 and okay, so like Whetton is a like broadly beaking, 1:20:16.800 --> 1:20:21.080 like a fucking ferociously hostile place to be anything other 1:20:21.200 --> 1:20:25.760 than a like assist head white person, right, it is 1:20:26.240 --> 1:20:32.640 like unbelievably homophobic. It is really anti Semitic. And like 1:20:32.880 --> 1:20:37.639 a few months ago, I was walking like through Wheaton 1:20:37.720 --> 1:20:41.439 downtown to visit a front and in the middle of 1:20:41.560 --> 1:20:46.160 fucking Wheaton downtown, they're they're they're like there there was 1:20:46.240 --> 1:20:49.080 someone who on in their in their like fucking lawn 1:20:49.520 --> 1:20:52.000 had had like had a giant Pride flag and like 1:20:52.000 --> 1:20:53.400 it wasn't like it was like it was like the 1:20:53.520 --> 1:20:56.000 there was the like the brown Pride flag too, right, 1:20:56.600 --> 1:21:01.280 Like that was like even five years ago, that would 1:21:01.280 --> 1:21:03.960 have been unimaginable, Like you would have been like you 1:21:04.000 --> 1:21:06.040 would have been fucking chased out of town by m Bob. 1:21:06.640 --> 1:21:11.479 Like and it's it's just there now, and I don't know, 1:21:11.760 --> 1:21:14.519 like they haven't been run out. It's still there. No, 1:21:15.000 --> 1:21:18.360 it's literally yes, everything that Christopher just said, and you 1:21:18.439 --> 1:21:21.559 know these are people that Christopher, Christopher and I grew 1:21:21.640 --> 1:21:24.800 up with like we literally I was there was a 1:21:24.960 --> 1:21:28.240 granddaughter of Billy Graham in my high school class. UM. 1:21:28.840 --> 1:21:32.800 And I think you know, as much as you know, 1:21:32.880 --> 1:21:34.799 these people are not going to be socialists or progressive 1:21:34.800 --> 1:21:37.000 at anytime soon. They are very much like normy moderate 1:21:37.120 --> 1:21:40.800 Democrats now. But there were a lot of suburban white 1:21:40.840 --> 1:21:43.439 people who got very turned off by Trump for the 1:21:43.520 --> 1:21:48.320 Republican Party. And I think that this midterm is the 1:21:48.439 --> 1:21:52.520 confirmation that, barring you know, some kind of economic catastrophe 1:21:52.600 --> 1:21:58.559 that always always throws elections to the out of power party. Uh, 1:21:58.840 --> 1:22:02.599 these Norman white urban nights are not going back. Uh. 1:22:02.800 --> 1:22:05.080 And we you know when you look at trends across 1:22:05.120 --> 1:22:09.960 the country. Um, you know JB. Princker one do Page County, 1:22:10.160 --> 1:22:14.360 which is the county that Wheaton is in, which is 1:22:14.400 --> 1:22:17.120 like you know, this is yeah, like this used to 1:22:17.200 --> 1:22:20.680 be within Christopher and I's lifetimes. This used to be 1:22:20.760 --> 1:22:24.240 a county that Republicans banked on getting three hundred thousand 1:22:24.320 --> 1:22:27.560 votes out of on a statewide margin level. Um, and 1:22:27.640 --> 1:22:30.360 now it's being one up and down by Democrats. Like 1:22:30.439 --> 1:22:33.960 Democrats flipped the county executive office in du Page County 1:22:34.040 --> 1:22:38.000 this year. Um, So like Chicago suburbs are trending are 1:22:38.000 --> 1:22:42.120 continuing to trend left, Atlanta suburbs are continuing to trend left. Uh, 1:22:42.439 --> 1:22:46.120 the like Raleigh Durham area in North Carolina is trending left. 1:22:46.200 --> 1:22:48.720 The Texas urban areas are trending left. And this isn't 1:22:48.760 --> 1:22:51.160 just like in comparison to twenty six. This is in 1:22:51.240 --> 1:22:54.919 comparison to two years ago, which was a democratic environment. 1:22:55.560 --> 1:22:58.920 Um So, the fact that these counties are swinging left 1:22:59.240 --> 1:23:02.559 in a year where the country, even though the overall 1:23:02.600 --> 1:23:07.000 results were fine, the country definitely swung right. Like these 1:23:07.040 --> 1:23:08.640 people are not going back. And not just that these 1:23:08.680 --> 1:23:11.719 people are not going back, but the ones who are staying. 1:23:11.760 --> 1:23:15.120 Republicans aid, they're moving. They're leaving the suburbs and they're 1:23:15.280 --> 1:23:18.679 establishing their little new white flight outposts in other places. 1:23:19.520 --> 1:23:22.479 Um and the people who are replacing them are largely 1:23:22.560 --> 1:23:25.160 people of color. Like the suburbs today in America are 1:23:25.200 --> 1:23:28.320 sixty percent white as compared to in the year two 1:23:28.360 --> 1:23:32.000 thousand when they were something like seventy percent white. Um 1:23:32.600 --> 1:23:35.439 So this is I think this year was the confirmation 1:23:35.520 --> 1:23:37.200 we needed that this is a permanent trend that the 1:23:37.280 --> 1:23:40.280 suburbs from now on are either going to be a 1:23:40.360 --> 1:23:44.519 wash or even frankly just democratic places where Democrats will 1:23:44.600 --> 1:23:47.960 net votes. And this is all There still is a 1:23:48.040 --> 1:23:50.479 lot of fear, and there's still is reason to be 1:23:51.479 --> 1:23:54.439 very concerned about the ability of the GOP's power to 1:23:54.479 --> 1:23:59.040 push things in Revanteus direction in an anti democratic election, 1:23:59.120 --> 1:24:01.080 to remove the ability of people because that that is 1:24:01.200 --> 1:24:02.800 you know, we're seeing them talk right now. We're seeing 1:24:02.800 --> 1:24:05.880 guys like Matt Walsh Christopher Ruffo talk right now about 1:24:05.880 --> 1:24:08.240 the need to like stop young people from voting, to 1:24:08.439 --> 1:24:11.760 like crackdown on mail voting. Like this is not not 1:24:11.920 --> 1:24:14.840 to say like, all right, it's all done, um, but 1:24:15.240 --> 1:24:18.600 this is like, I guess the thing that's that's optimistic 1:24:18.680 --> 1:24:25.479 about this overall is that it is um. It's evidence 1:24:25.600 --> 1:24:30.960 that the there there was this kind of open question 1:24:31.240 --> 1:24:36.720 after Trump won in UM and if one thing you 1:24:36.800 --> 1:24:38.920 could look at, you could look at you could look 1:24:38.920 --> 1:24:42.760 at two and they're like, well, clearly the trend since 1:24:42.840 --> 1:24:45.360 then has been for the GOP to lose big in 1:24:45.520 --> 1:24:49.320 most of these elections. But that was also anything but clear, 1:24:49.479 --> 1:24:52.439 kind of as a result of of in the way 1:24:52.520 --> 1:24:55.400 COVID fuck things up. And this this does seem to 1:24:55.520 --> 1:24:59.080 like submit that that like, yeah, it may it may 1:24:59.160 --> 1:25:03.240 have the long run proved to be a major, major 1:25:03.479 --> 1:25:06.960 tactical failure to to have gone for this guy the 1:25:07.000 --> 1:25:08.760 way that they did. Oh yeah, I mean and we 1:25:08.800 --> 1:25:12.559 can only hope. Um. I mean, I personally, from an 1:25:12.680 --> 1:25:18.360 entertainment factor, cannot wait for the de Santas versus Trump primary. Um, 1:25:18.600 --> 1:25:20.679 I will be. I will be rooting for Trump because 1:25:20.720 --> 1:25:24.360 he is funnier online. Um. And also I don't think 1:25:24.400 --> 1:25:27.880 it would make a substance of difference uh in whether 1:25:28.000 --> 1:25:31.240 or not like who would be the nominee, because the 1:25:31.320 --> 1:25:36.800 Santis is just Trump without the charisma. Um. But I 1:25:36.920 --> 1:25:41.720 think yeah, hopefully, Like we saw the Republican Party pay 1:25:41.800 --> 1:25:45.080 a price this year for arguably the first time in 1:25:45.160 --> 1:25:50.240 a long time for their insanity. Um, and it's good 1:25:50.280 --> 1:25:53.719 to see that that happened. Hopefully it will happen again. 1:25:53.960 --> 1:25:57.120 And I will also note for anyone listening, who does 1:25:57.320 --> 1:25:59.080 you know you care about elections? You want to get 1:25:59.080 --> 1:26:02.240 involved somewhere. The next somewhere for you to get involved 1:26:02.280 --> 1:26:06.720 in is the state of Wisconsin, where the there is 1:26:06.760 --> 1:26:10.040 a state Supreme Court seat up for election in April. 1:26:10.560 --> 1:26:13.880 If Democrats win that seat, they will flip the Supreme 1:26:13.920 --> 1:26:19.880 Court in Wisconsin, and that means that the absolutely insane 1:26:20.520 --> 1:26:23.960 Republican gerrymanders in that state, which pretty much render the 1:26:24.000 --> 1:26:28.479 state of Wisconsin a non democracy, will likely get overcharged 1:26:28.479 --> 1:26:31.240 if Democrats are able to flip the Wisconsin Supreme Court, 1:26:31.800 --> 1:26:34.320 which would mean a lot of good things could happen 1:26:34.439 --> 1:26:38.360 for a lot of people who live in that state. Okay, 1:26:38.400 --> 1:26:41.599 there is one other thing that is like basically I'm religious, 1:26:41.640 --> 1:26:44.080 that I want to touch on before we close up, 1:26:44.080 --> 1:26:47.000 which is that the extent to which the Republicans have 1:26:47.439 --> 1:26:51.559 sort of entered chaos mode now a with with Trump 1:26:51.720 --> 1:26:55.040 just sort of like going off on the Santis and 1:26:55.160 --> 1:26:59.000 like the Republican Civil War happening. And then secondly, because 1:26:59.120 --> 1:27:02.639 they see it looks like they've gotten the chaos mode 1:27:02.720 --> 1:27:08.720 configuration of their House majority. Yes, um, any anyone who 1:27:08.800 --> 1:27:12.240 pays attention to Congress, I would encourage you to get very, 1:27:12.400 --> 1:27:17.560 very familiar with the term discharge petition, which is a 1:27:17.680 --> 1:27:20.920 mechanism by which, if you have a majority of the 1:27:21.000 --> 1:27:23.680 House is willing to sign a piece of paper that 1:27:23.840 --> 1:27:25.800 says we should put this bill on the floor no 1:27:25.920 --> 1:27:29.800 matter what it goes to the floor. No matter what, um, and, 1:27:30.280 --> 1:27:33.400 I think you're probably gonna see Democrats successfully put a 1:27:33.479 --> 1:27:35.439 lot of bills on the House floor in the next 1:27:35.520 --> 1:27:37.519 two years because they're going to get they're going to 1:27:37.600 --> 1:27:41.599 pick off the Republican moderates in the northeast to sign 1:27:41.680 --> 1:27:44.800 these these pieces of paper. We should I think we 1:27:44.840 --> 1:27:49.120 should explain what exactly the Republican position looks like, because 1:27:49.200 --> 1:27:53.879 it's oh sure, so um it's so, I should caveat 1:27:53.960 --> 1:27:57.320 this with the statement that there is still like I 1:27:57.360 --> 1:28:00.360 would say, a five percent chance that Democrats may manage 1:28:00.439 --> 1:28:05.880 to scrap, like scrape their way to a one seat majority. Um, 1:28:06.120 --> 1:28:08.160 it's not likely by any means, but like, it is 1:28:08.160 --> 1:28:11.719 still theoretically on the table, mostly because Lauren Bobert managed 1:28:11.880 --> 1:28:15.840 to put herself into position where she might actually lose UM. 1:28:17.080 --> 1:28:22.920 And but default modal outcome I would say is Republicans 1:28:23.000 --> 1:28:25.839 end up with a three or four House seat majority. 1:28:26.400 --> 1:28:30.519 Uh in. But what that means is that UHL, we 1:28:30.560 --> 1:28:34.120 get Calvin Ball for the next two years, essentially because 1:28:34.240 --> 1:28:39.160 Kevin McCarthy as a person, UM is well a he's 1:28:39.200 --> 1:28:42.479 like very unintelligent in general. And this is like a 1:28:42.640 --> 1:28:45.400 very common sentiment that you will run into uh. In 1:28:45.479 --> 1:28:48.600 people who pay attention to Congress, he is not personally 1:28:48.680 --> 1:28:52.200 capable of managing a House majority of four. This is 1:28:52.320 --> 1:28:54.920 so widely accepted that Nancy Pelosi was willing to go 1:28:55.080 --> 1:28:58.680 on the record in an interview the other day saying that, um, 1:28:59.400 --> 1:29:04.000 and so, who knows, Kevin McCarthy may not even end 1:29:04.080 --> 1:29:06.400 up being the speaker. We may not have a speaker 1:29:06.479 --> 1:29:11.280 until March because no one would get two and eighteen votes. Um. 1:29:11.680 --> 1:29:15.160 But whoever has that job, whatever Republican has that job, 1:29:15.479 --> 1:29:17.160 it is going to be the most thankless job of 1:29:17.240 --> 1:29:19.599 their life that they will suffer through the two years. 1:29:20.920 --> 1:29:25.439 Because you know, the the pundit class and political operatives 1:29:25.520 --> 1:29:28.559 love to talk about how ideologically diverse the Democratic Party 1:29:28.720 --> 1:29:30.920 is in the House. And it's true because like on 1:29:31.000 --> 1:29:32.760 the left wing end of the of the caucus you 1:29:32.840 --> 1:29:36.120 have people like Rashida Claib and Ellen Omar, and the 1:29:36.240 --> 1:29:38.120 right wing end you have people like Henry quay Are, 1:29:38.320 --> 1:29:44.800 who tragically survived his primary this year. Um. But I 1:29:44.920 --> 1:29:48.120 think it has gone under the radar that Republicans in 1:29:48.240 --> 1:29:53.559 the House are arguably more ideologically diverse than Democrats are 1:29:53.720 --> 1:29:57.400 because the moderates, the moderate Republicans in the House are 1:29:57.520 --> 1:30:03.200 like your very standard like socially liberal, fiscally conservative types 1:30:03.240 --> 1:30:05.880 that were very popular and like two thousand ten, um, 1:30:06.200 --> 1:30:09.280 like you have like some of these Northeastern Republicans who 1:30:09.720 --> 1:30:12.240 are were more than happy to vote for same sex marriage, 1:30:12.320 --> 1:30:17.479 though they would probably vote for uh like to quodify row, 1:30:17.520 --> 1:30:22.160 they would probably vote to codify birth control legal like reality. 1:30:23.200 --> 1:30:24.920 And on the other end you have Marjorie Taylor Green 1:30:26.200 --> 1:30:31.800 and like if MTG. Yeah, if if there is a 1:30:31.920 --> 1:30:35.680 person on this earth who is capable of managing that caucus, Um, 1:30:35.840 --> 1:30:37.599 I don't know who they are. I don't think anyone 1:30:37.720 --> 1:30:41.040 knows who they are. UM, And I think that the 1:30:41.400 --> 1:30:44.920 smartest thing that that person could do is um not 1:30:45.120 --> 1:30:48.320 take the job and let someone else take the fall 1:30:48.800 --> 1:30:50.880 for what is going to be two years of chaos 1:30:51.040 --> 1:30:53.920 that will most likely hurt the Republican brand a lot 1:30:54.080 --> 1:30:56.439 in the next two years. Yeah. That that's like one 1:30:56.439 --> 1:30:59.280 of the things that actually makes me like slightly optimistic 1:30:59.439 --> 1:31:05.760 is that like the Republican Party like is it is 1:31:05.840 --> 1:31:08.080 it like a first coalition and it had been being 1:31:08.120 --> 1:31:13.759 held together sort of like by Trump, And now Trump's 1:31:13.760 --> 1:31:17.960 on on Twitter anymore, and Twitter may not exist by 1:31:18.080 --> 1:31:23.080 like the time community speaker. Well, it's also I think 1:31:23.120 --> 1:31:26.160 I might add Chris, it's not just by Trump. And 1:31:26.320 --> 1:31:29.000 part of why Trump was able to get the position 1:31:29.040 --> 1:31:31.479 did is it's it's a mix of Trump and owning 1:31:31.520 --> 1:31:34.240 the Libs, right, Like, that's that's a huge part of 1:31:34.320 --> 1:31:37.439 why the most visible members of this caucus are where 1:31:37.520 --> 1:31:40.559 they are, Like, there's no there's no Marjorie Taylor Green 1:31:40.920 --> 1:31:45.800 right without the way that particular social reinforcement pattern works. 1:31:46.560 --> 1:31:51.600 And um, yeah, I I think that like that's not 1:31:52.040 --> 1:31:54.400 like number one, if Twitter goes away, which could have 1:31:54.479 --> 1:31:56.280 happened by the time you listen to this episode, that 1:31:56.400 --> 1:31:58.800 really gets gets in the way of their ability to 1:31:58.880 --> 1:32:01.360 own the Libs. But also so if they're just getting 1:32:01.400 --> 1:32:04.240 their asses kicked up and down the country, they're they're 1:32:04.280 --> 1:32:08.240 no longer owning the Libs. The Libs have not been owned, No, 1:32:08.640 --> 1:32:11.720 they have not. And I think the other you know, 1:32:12.200 --> 1:32:16.439 the other consideration here is that, um, we like to 1:32:16.479 --> 1:32:18.800 talk a lot in this country because it's true about 1:32:18.920 --> 1:32:22.720 neither party ever puts forth a substance of policy agenda. Um. 1:32:23.320 --> 1:32:26.080 And there are a lot of Republican political operatives who 1:32:26.120 --> 1:32:29.200 are running around right now complaining and saying that Republicans 1:32:29.280 --> 1:32:31.800 lost because they failed to offer a viable alternative. Except 1:32:31.840 --> 1:32:35.160 that's not true. Republicans did offer a policy agenda in 1:32:35.240 --> 1:32:38.600 this midterm, and that policy agenda was Christian nationalism, and 1:32:38.920 --> 1:32:41.400 American voters took one look at that and said, are 1:32:41.479 --> 1:32:44.840 you fucking for real? Yeah, yeah, like that that's the 1:32:45.200 --> 1:32:48.400 thing that like everyone like like people like all the 1:32:48.439 --> 1:32:52.360 fucking New York Times calumn this, Like people don't understand that. 1:32:52.520 --> 1:32:56.360 Like there's maybe thirty of the population who actually likes 1:32:56.400 --> 1:33:00.080 that ship, and everyone else in the country is like, 1:33:00.400 --> 1:33:04.680 what the fuck? And you know, and but but you know, 1:33:04.840 --> 1:33:10.320 like the like the the the actual sort of median 1:33:10.479 --> 1:33:13.720 person in the US is so much less like that 1:33:14.120 --> 1:33:16.360 than the median person that every pundit imagines that like 1:33:16.439 --> 1:33:19.160 the version of reality that exists in sort of like 1:33:19.240 --> 1:33:23.479 the minds of the media class. Like it's not yeah, 1:33:24.640 --> 1:33:27.320 they've they've they've cre they've created like incredible sand castles 1:33:27.360 --> 1:33:29.719 in their mind. Now the tides like washing them away. 1:33:30.240 --> 1:33:31.840 I don't know if the tide washing them away. I 1:33:31.960 --> 1:33:34.280 think we can we can only hope that The New 1:33:34.360 --> 1:33:37.960 York Times gets washed out to see. But I think, 1:33:38.200 --> 1:33:42.519 you know, I sorry, go for it, no, no, no please. 1:33:43.080 --> 1:33:46.000 I was just gonna say, like, you know, obviously the 1:33:46.080 --> 1:33:48.920 next two years are going to be the next two years, UM, 1:33:49.479 --> 1:33:52.040 and no one can predict the future. Anyone who anyone 1:33:52.240 --> 1:33:55.360 who tells you and literally the next eighteen months that 1:33:55.479 --> 1:33:57.760 they know how the two four elections are going to 1:33:57.840 --> 1:34:00.360 go is lying to you, and you should lock them 1:34:00.479 --> 1:34:04.679 and perhaps to report them to like whatever like non 1:34:05.320 --> 1:34:08.519 retributed forms of authority exists in your local area. But 1:34:08.960 --> 1:34:13.880 um my, you know, based on how this went, if 1:34:14.200 --> 1:34:17.120 the same trends play out for the next two years, 1:34:17.320 --> 1:34:21.280 which would be suburbs continue swinging left, Democrats continue to 1:34:21.360 --> 1:34:25.040 rack up problems with minority voters, but like not to 1:34:25.120 --> 1:34:30.240 the extent that we're gonna lose urban seats anytime soon. Um, 1:34:30.479 --> 1:34:33.280 and Republicans continue racking up margins in the states and 1:34:33.400 --> 1:34:35.559 like the seats that they're already winning by eighty points, 1:34:35.640 --> 1:34:37.720 which helps them on a statewide level, but does not 1:34:37.800 --> 1:34:40.720 help them in the U. S. House. My I would say, like, 1:34:41.280 --> 1:34:45.559 assuming the current trends continue the trends we've had since sixteen, UM, 1:34:46.320 --> 1:34:49.160 that would mean Democrats flip back the House in two 1:34:49.240 --> 1:34:52.000 thousand twenty four. H it would also mean that we 1:34:52.080 --> 1:34:54.120 are once again in like the fight of our lives 1:34:54.240 --> 1:34:56.519 for the Senate, as we likely will be for every 1:34:56.600 --> 1:34:58.800 single cycle for the next ten years. So you know, 1:34:59.000 --> 1:35:01.439 just kind of get used to the um while you 1:35:01.560 --> 1:35:05.160 can when you have the breather um. But yeah, like 1:35:06.040 --> 1:35:09.880 we had an okay in term that was literally a 1:35:10.040 --> 1:35:12.599 year ago looking like it was going to be possibly 1:35:12.680 --> 1:35:16.240 the worst in term wipe out, possibly the end of 1:35:16.920 --> 1:35:25.439 the Republic as literally literally, um, so you might be good. 1:35:25.840 --> 1:35:28.280 I think the responsible thing to do now is to 1:35:28.400 --> 1:35:31.920 close out by each giving one of our unhinged predictions 1:35:32.120 --> 1:35:35.360 for what we're going to see in and I'm going 1:35:35.439 --> 1:35:39.080 to start. I think we're gonna see Musk and McConaughey 1:35:39.560 --> 1:35:42.760 VI for the governor of Texas once Greg Abbott is 1:35:42.880 --> 1:35:46.880 forced out god from a sex scandal. Um, that's my 1:35:47.080 --> 1:35:51.320 that's my call. Proved to me, show show when when, 1:35:51.400 --> 1:35:55.840 when it happens? Everybody, everybody alowe me, Yeah, some some 1:35:56.040 --> 1:36:01.360 French fries, Oh god, it's gonna happen. Calling it now, 1:36:01.760 --> 1:36:04.840 Tom Brady, I reckon, Tom Brady is gonna Tom Brady 1:36:04.920 --> 1:36:08.320 is gonna take a swing at it at Texas. No 1:36:09.080 --> 1:36:11.639 one of those states up in where it's cold marines 1:36:11.680 --> 1:36:15.000 all the time. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, one of those. Yeah, 1:36:15.320 --> 1:36:22.400 I assume he's from, broadly speaking, Illinois to Wisconsin. He is, 1:36:22.800 --> 1:36:24.760 he would be running in New England. Please do not 1:36:24.840 --> 1:36:27.479 pin that on us. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, bro, but 1:36:27.560 --> 1:36:29.800 not that kind of cold like yeah, just just gray, 1:36:29.960 --> 1:36:33.800 not like like miserable cold like you will have there. Yeah. 1:36:33.880 --> 1:36:35.559 Tom Brady running in a place where you can't grow 1:36:35.600 --> 1:36:38.960 tomatoes is Yeah, it's my prediction that feels good after 1:36:39.120 --> 1:36:45.600 his massive success selling the hit crypto platform f t X. 1:36:46.160 --> 1:36:50.840 What one can't Tom Brady do? Who knows? Don't, don't 1:36:50.840 --> 1:36:53.559 ask that, whyn't put that out there? Robert win games 1:36:53.600 --> 1:36:58.760 for the Bucketeers. Yeah, in Germany. Yeah, survive eating what 1:36:59.000 --> 1:37:04.040 any normal human being would eat on a given day. Garrison, 1:37:05.120 --> 1:37:07.640 I don't know, I don't. I don't care about this 1:37:07.840 --> 1:37:11.200 type of thing very much. The perfect reason to make 1:37:11.320 --> 1:37:15.080 unhinged prediction. I don't know. I think. One of the 1:37:15.120 --> 1:37:17.920 funniest things is that earlier this year there's this big 1:37:18.160 --> 1:37:22.040 bitcoin account who said that if things continue, bitcoin is 1:37:22.080 --> 1:37:25.479 going to be a major factor in the mid terms, 1:37:27.120 --> 1:37:37.080 which is so so I'm saying that what's the what's 1:37:37.200 --> 1:37:43.240 what's the even dumber cryptocurrency? Um I was thinking of? 1:37:43.560 --> 1:37:45.920 I was thinking of, does coin is gonna be a 1:37:46.000 --> 1:37:54.559 significant factor in election? Yeah? Uh? Mine is that? Mine 1:37:54.680 --> 1:37:57.280 is that? Okay, Pritzker is going to bring back like 1:37:57.439 --> 1:38:01.000 the old school democratic machine, and but by Biden is 1:38:01.000 --> 1:38:04.040 gonna fall out a window like Kamala Harris. He's going 1:38:04.160 --> 1:38:07.400 to sort of like turn up like that they're going 1:38:07.479 --> 1:38:09.479 to drain a damn in thirty years and find her 1:38:09.520 --> 1:38:14.559 body and going to run again. Yeah, yeah, he won't 1:38:14.640 --> 1:38:16.720 because he will have fallen out of a building then 1:38:16.840 --> 1:38:20.960 near the end of at the end of about three Christmas. 1:38:24.040 --> 1:38:26.000 That's your prediction that Joe Biden will fall out of 1:38:26.040 --> 1:38:33.120 a window the fourth comenetration of Prague. Like we we 1:38:33.400 --> 1:38:35.840 we all think that like the sort of like threat, 1:38:35.920 --> 1:38:38.599 like the threat to bourgeois democracy comes come comes from 1:38:38.600 --> 1:38:41.519 the Republicans. It's not. It's Pritzker. Prisker is gonna coup 1:38:41.560 --> 1:38:44.559 the fucking country and probably sixty percent of the population 1:38:44.640 --> 1:38:46.599 is going to be completely on board because he's going 1:38:46.640 --> 1:38:49.080 to be less insane than like everyone that's been like 1:38:49.160 --> 1:38:51.280 in charge of this country for the last fifty years. 1:38:52.000 --> 1:38:58.799 And you know, he's gonna save democracy then okay, yeah, okay, 1:39:00.080 --> 1:39:01.960 leaves me. What is my unhin prediction. I don't think 1:39:01.960 --> 1:39:05.800 I'm going to top christophers prediction about JP prinsker Um. 1:39:08.800 --> 1:39:11.080 You know, I think my unhin prediction will be that 1:39:11.160 --> 1:39:14.280 Taylor Swift runs for Senate in Tennessee. Oh god, oh 1:39:14.400 --> 1:39:18.240 she could do it. Yeah, yeah, I don't don't look 1:39:18.360 --> 1:39:20.800 if she if she brings on, if she brings on 1:39:20.920 --> 1:39:23.120 the head of her fan club who went to jail 1:39:23.200 --> 1:39:27.080 in Israel for refusing to serve the idea, I think 1:39:27.120 --> 1:39:30.600 that actually might get some progressive Yeah, that may have 1:39:30.680 --> 1:39:35.040 been untrue sadly, the oh the Swifty refuge, but maybe 1:39:35.080 --> 1:39:38.320 not really. Why why did you even introduce that? Why? 1:39:38.439 --> 1:39:41.679 Why would you? Why would you say that to me? Again? 1:39:41.720 --> 1:39:43.800 Because not all these beautiful things we believe it could 1:39:43.800 --> 1:39:47.800 be true, But Taylor Swift running for Tennessee, she would 1:39:47.840 --> 1:39:50.400 almost certainly be better than whoever is a Tennessee senator 1:39:50.479 --> 1:39:55.240 now right, Yeah, it's now Colonel Sanders or someone basically 1:39:55.479 --> 1:40:00.720 the same as Colonel Sanders, I imagine, can Hucky Yeah, 1:40:00.800 --> 1:40:06.080 come on, come on, Brittany James is Kentucky. It's called Kentucky. 1:40:06.200 --> 1:40:09.639 Fried chicken, James, that was that was basically a slur. 1:40:13.680 --> 1:40:17.200 I there is a type of guy epitomized by Colonel 1:40:17.240 --> 1:40:20.400 Sanders who also occupies all the Senate seats south to 1:40:20.439 --> 1:40:24.400 the Mason Dixon line. That's not true. That's that's my 1:40:24.800 --> 1:40:27.240 that's my stunts, and I'm sticking to it. I am 1:40:27.320 --> 1:40:32.840 pushing back on this. Well, I'm gonna watch a fog 1:40:32.880 --> 1:40:36.040 Horn Leghorn video because that's that's who I'm thinking of now, James, 1:40:36.280 --> 1:40:42.760 all right, everybody that's been the episode, mm go vote swift, Yeah, 1:40:42.840 --> 1:40:46.400 vote another couple of times. Just make sure, yeah, the 1:40:46.600 --> 1:40:50.519 old Chicago model. Vote early, vote often pay for pay 1:40:50.560 --> 1:40:54.519 for a few meals. Everyone go to Colorado and vote 1:40:54.560 --> 1:40:58.640 against Yes, literally seven of you or whatever conswing this 1:40:59.360 --> 1:41:01.719 move to color Right. We can't deal with that Sha anymore. 1:41:01.840 --> 1:41:05.120 Fund raise in order to purchase a huge number of 1:41:05.240 --> 1:41:09.240 drones and drop ballots over wherever it is in Colorado. 1:41:09.320 --> 1:41:15.439 They count votes. I assume Denver. Yeah, like at Denver 1:41:15.600 --> 1:41:31.960 in your ballots and stop listening to podcasts. Legal disclaimer Okay, 1:41:32.040 --> 1:41:34.599 it's actually me not the legal disclaim a guy from 1:41:35.040 --> 1:41:37.400 Medical aud but we just wanted to mention that both 1:41:37.600 --> 1:41:39.960 of Our guests today are members of you a W, 1:41:40.400 --> 1:41:43.719 but they do not speak on behalf of you a W. Okay, 1:41:43.840 --> 1:42:05.880 enjoy the podcast. Uh could happen here? It's it's it's 1:42:05.880 --> 1:42:08.719 this podcast. It's podcast. We're doing a podcast. It's a podcast, 1:42:08.960 --> 1:42:12.720 and today it's podcast with me. I'm James and I'm 1:42:12.840 --> 1:42:15.560 joined by Chris and I'm joined by a couple of 1:42:15.600 --> 1:42:18.160 grad students from you see San Diego. Today we're going 1:42:18.200 --> 1:42:20.599 to talk about grad students strikes. Are going to talk 1:42:20.600 --> 1:42:22.559 about the grad student strike Volte that's coming up at 1:42:22.600 --> 1:42:25.120 you see San Diego and some other grad students strikes 1:42:25.160 --> 1:42:27.439 that Chris and I have been part of back in 1:42:27.560 --> 1:42:32.080 the Middle Ages. Okay, so I'm joined today. But Alex, Alex, 1:42:32.120 --> 1:42:35.559 you're you're you're studying. I'm trying to get this correct. 1:42:35.800 --> 1:42:38.320 Cancer genomics a U C s D. Is that correct? 1:42:38.920 --> 1:42:41.759 That is correct? Thanks for having me. Yeah, you're welcome. 1:42:41.920 --> 1:42:44.439 And Tyler Bell as well. And Tyler you're a post 1:42:44.520 --> 1:42:48.760 doc and you're doing Altzheimer's research, so right, yes, and 1:42:48.880 --> 1:42:52.240 you're both members of U a W. Yes, that's correct. 1:42:52.520 --> 1:42:56.160 I've been a member for at least two years. But yeah, 1:42:56.880 --> 1:43:00.360 and I'm a member of the actual the subset of 1:43:00.360 --> 1:43:04.160 you aw that just formed representing student researchers in completing 1:43:04.200 --> 1:43:06.680 their PhDs. So we'll explain all the details of that 1:43:06.800 --> 1:43:10.360 of course going forward. Yeah, I think maybe we should 1:43:10.400 --> 1:43:13.680 start there and explain kind of the economic relationship of 1:43:14.200 --> 1:43:17.800 PhD and POSTDC students to the university, like what what 1:43:18.040 --> 1:43:21.719 work they do and the As we were talking about beforehand, 1:43:21.720 --> 1:43:23.760 people might not even be familiar with the fact that 1:43:24.280 --> 1:43:27.320 you get paid by the university in many of these positions, right, 1:43:27.920 --> 1:43:32.400 So can you explain like how that works? Yeah, definitely. 1:43:32.680 --> 1:43:36.479 So Yeah, as you mentioned, UM, we do uh in 1:43:36.600 --> 1:43:40.519 our various roles as graduate students, teachers, and post docs. 1:43:40.920 --> 1:43:43.800 We do a lot of work, majority of the work 1:43:43.840 --> 1:43:46.679 in fact, that is critical for the university to function 1:43:46.760 --> 1:43:49.000 as it does, UM, and we do that in a 1:43:49.040 --> 1:43:53.120 few different roles. Some of us are paid to teach 1:43:53.400 --> 1:43:56.480 or t a classes. We call those academic student employees 1:43:57.040 --> 1:43:59.840 who are represented by one of our unions you aw 1:44:00.000 --> 1:44:02.920 to eight six five. The ragnder of PhD students are 1:44:02.920 --> 1:44:05.080 actually paid directly to do their research, and this is 1:44:05.160 --> 1:44:07.280 usually funded up of grants or other money that the 1:44:07.360 --> 1:44:10.960 university has your march for research. So as we are 1:44:11.120 --> 1:44:13.680 progressing towards our degrees. We are doing work that is 1:44:13.720 --> 1:44:17.240 productive in our labs to get papers out, get grant 1:44:17.280 --> 1:44:20.960 funding coming in, and we receive a stipend to perform 1:44:21.040 --> 1:44:23.840 that work. Uh. Those students are known as graduate student 1:44:23.920 --> 1:44:27.719 researchers or gsrs, who are represented by a new union 1:44:27.800 --> 1:44:30.720 that just formed because it actually became recently legal to 1:44:30.840 --> 1:44:33.720 form such a union in the state of California. We 1:44:33.800 --> 1:44:36.639 are represented by s are you bargaining for our first contract? 1:44:37.080 --> 1:44:39.519 And then we have the post docs, which Tyler can 1:44:39.560 --> 1:44:43.519 probably talk more about. Who are students who have completed 1:44:43.560 --> 1:44:46.600 their I'm sorry I should We're really clarified. Are not 1:44:46.760 --> 1:44:49.680 students they are They are employees of the university who 1:44:49.720 --> 1:44:52.000 have completed their degrees so are no longer students and 1:44:52.080 --> 1:44:55.040 are doing research work in labs, usually driving their own 1:44:55.080 --> 1:44:59.240 projects forward under supervision of professors. So they are represented 1:44:59.280 --> 1:45:01.000 by a third union, and that's part of this sort 1:45:01.000 --> 1:45:05.160 of collective um organizing called you a w F A ten. 1:45:05.760 --> 1:45:09.479 Well you have postox unions. Yeah, well that's so cool. 1:45:11.200 --> 1:45:13.280 I think the one here you see is actually the 1:45:13.400 --> 1:45:16.400 biggest and one of the first ones that formed. I 1:45:16.400 --> 1:45:18.799 remember I was on a Wikipedia page, which I shouldn't 1:45:18.880 --> 1:45:22.040 use as an academic, but I totally there and I 1:45:22.080 --> 1:45:27.720 was likely made the game away. Yeah, yeah, And I 1:45:27.840 --> 1:45:30.120 think it's it's fascinating because if there are all these 1:45:30.200 --> 1:45:33.280 like memes that you'll see as a graduate student, and 1:45:33.360 --> 1:45:35.360 then it's like when you finish your pH d, where 1:45:35.400 --> 1:45:37.360 it's like you always think that you're going to get 1:45:37.400 --> 1:45:40.519 off the like the grind, right, Like you're like, oh, 1:45:40.600 --> 1:45:42.280 I'll do my m A and then I'll get off 1:45:42.320 --> 1:45:43.800 and then I'll do my pH d and then the 1:45:44.080 --> 1:45:46.439 people respect me and I'll be compensated for a massive 1:45:46.439 --> 1:45:48.400 amount of work I do. And then like I'll just 1:45:48.520 --> 1:45:50.400 finish this post doc and then you're like, oh, I'm 1:45:50.439 --> 1:45:54.400 fifty five, you know. Like it's all of those positions 1:45:54.439 --> 1:45:57.840 are heavily exploited by by universities that make a metric 1:45:57.880 --> 1:45:59.880 ship ton of money from these people, who, as you say, 1:46:00.240 --> 1:46:02.679 do most of the work that keeps a university running. 1:46:03.920 --> 1:46:06.760 So perhaps we could talk about the issues that are 1:46:07.000 --> 1:46:09.519 at stake that that are leading to this this strike 1:46:09.600 --> 1:46:12.040 authorization vote, and maybe if we go through a little 1:46:12.040 --> 1:46:14.960 bit of a timeline as well, that would be great. Yes, 1:46:15.080 --> 1:46:17.280 maybe Teller, maybe you could like explain the fifty ten 1:46:17.360 --> 1:46:18.960 timeline and I can talk a little bit about this, 1:46:19.080 --> 1:46:20.720 are you, and I guess kind of place a five 1:46:20.760 --> 1:46:24.920 point yeah. So chronologically the post talk we're up for 1:46:25.000 --> 1:46:28.240 their contract negotiation, which that's just to set our wages, 1:46:28.320 --> 1:46:31.680 benefits and workplace safety and other types of protections we 1:46:31.760 --> 1:46:35.600 want UM. And that actually came up I think in 1:46:35.680 --> 1:46:40.439 September of UM, and I could be wrong with the 1:46:40.520 --> 1:46:43.720 date specifically. So much has changed, but we initially back 1:46:43.760 --> 1:46:47.479 in UM started actually asking people what they wanted to 1:46:47.520 --> 1:46:50.360 see in their new contract, like our members, because the 1:46:50.520 --> 1:46:53.439 union isn't like like I if I didn't care about 1:46:53.479 --> 1:46:55.200 the union or no one else care to what exists 1:46:55.280 --> 1:46:57.320 like it's the post docs and we have to take 1:46:57.360 --> 1:46:58.840 out like a couple of hours a week to do 1:46:58.960 --> 1:47:01.600 this thing, and sometimes is twenty hours on top of 1:47:01.640 --> 1:47:04.479 our research which is forty hours. And so during that 1:47:04.640 --> 1:47:08.880 time we surveyed, everyone got the demands that people wanted, 1:47:09.160 --> 1:47:11.120 and the top two issues that people asked for that 1:47:11.200 --> 1:47:15.680 they want it changed was our wages and also the housing. UM. 1:47:15.800 --> 1:47:18.840 We wanted affordable housing because right now, UM, you know 1:47:18.920 --> 1:47:23.080 over of academic workers, including the post docs, who you 1:47:23.120 --> 1:47:25.519 would think you know, you have a PhD. This is 1:47:25.560 --> 1:47:28.160 the time you can finally have affordable housing and you 1:47:28.160 --> 1:47:30.040 don't have to worry about food scarcity and all these 1:47:30.080 --> 1:47:31.960 other things that you're worried about as a graduate student. 1:47:32.280 --> 1:47:34.200 So just take this in the context of like we're 1:47:34.240 --> 1:47:36.200 post docs. We're supposed to be like the most paid 1:47:37.080 --> 1:47:39.040 or at least a better off because we have our PhD. 1:47:39.520 --> 1:47:41.559 Think about like what that means for the graduate students 1:47:41.600 --> 1:47:44.400 and those that aren't yet at that stage yet. Um. 1:47:44.640 --> 1:47:47.600 And so when we went forward with our proposals, we 1:47:48.200 --> 1:47:50.680 um create a lot of other things that we thought 1:47:50.720 --> 1:47:55.120 were important, including things like transit UM bargaining demands to 1:47:55.840 --> 1:47:58.679 make public transit like affordable for post docs because currently 1:47:59.120 --> 1:48:01.240 we don't get any kind of like free paths for that. 1:48:01.880 --> 1:48:04.120 They don't even consider it um. In fact, you know, 1:48:04.320 --> 1:48:06.880 they probably think we all have cars, which isn't true 1:48:06.880 --> 1:48:09.600 because a lot of post docs are international scholars. We 1:48:09.680 --> 1:48:12.400 were also asking for child care support because currently, like 1:48:12.840 --> 1:48:16.800 a good bit of you know, our post docs have children. Um, 1:48:16.880 --> 1:48:19.719 which is normal because this is a normal like family 1:48:19.760 --> 1:48:22.680 creation time or whatever you wanna call it, but um, 1:48:24.000 --> 1:48:26.080 it can be one of the only times as an 1:48:26.120 --> 1:48:28.799 academic when it when it really sort of doesn't massively 1:48:28.840 --> 1:48:33.080 disadvantage your career to have stuff me right exactly. And 1:48:33.200 --> 1:48:36.120 like post docs, like the whole preposition of a post 1:48:36.200 --> 1:48:39.040 doc was, you know, there's not enough faculty spots for 1:48:39.160 --> 1:48:42.320 once you get a PhD. And post docs now can 1:48:42.439 --> 1:48:45.200 last five if not longer, like five years or longer. 1:48:45.840 --> 1:48:49.599 And there's a new position called an academic researcher, which 1:48:49.680 --> 1:48:51.280 is a type of like title that you get when 1:48:51.280 --> 1:48:52.800 you can no longer be a post doc. But it's 1:48:53.040 --> 1:48:55.240 also because there's just not enough faculty, so they put 1:48:55.280 --> 1:48:59.360 you into a different title to do research. And UM collectively, 1:48:59.439 --> 1:49:03.200 both US post docs and people that are academic researchers, 1:49:03.520 --> 1:49:06.519 we don't get any affordable childcare, we don't have affordable 1:49:06.600 --> 1:49:09.800 housing UM, and our wages are below the cost of living. 1:49:10.280 --> 1:49:14.920 And currently we went through the proposals back then and 1:49:15.160 --> 1:49:18.080 we over time a year and a half have not 1:49:18.200 --> 1:49:21.320 really made any leeway on these proposals that actually changed 1:49:21.320 --> 1:49:25.040 the material conditions for post docs. Like the university has 1:49:25.400 --> 1:49:27.320 been you know, bargaining in bad faith that we have 1:49:27.560 --> 1:49:33.639 multiple unfair UM labor practice lawsuits against from our public 1:49:33.680 --> 1:49:37.280 relations board for the employers UM and three of those 1:49:37.360 --> 1:49:40.000 have been UM. Sorry, let me get those numbers right. 1:49:40.720 --> 1:49:44.280 Multiple of those have actually been successfully have complaints filed 1:49:44.280 --> 1:49:46.719 against the university. Some of the things that the university 1:49:46.760 --> 1:49:49.519 has done in particularly while we've been bargaining is one 1:49:49.640 --> 1:49:51.719 not bringing the information to the table that we request, 1:49:51.800 --> 1:49:55.519 like denying our request for information. They have also refused 1:49:55.560 --> 1:49:57.120 to bring the people that can make the type of 1:49:57.160 --> 1:50:00.360 decisions that we need to the table. And they've all 1:50:00.520 --> 1:50:05.000 also been making unilateral changes to things like bullying policies 1:50:05.240 --> 1:50:08.160 and other workplace issues without even being at the bargaining table. 1:50:08.840 --> 1:50:10.720 And the last thing that they've been doing during this 1:50:10.840 --> 1:50:15.080 process is serving members of our union outside of like 1:50:15.760 --> 1:50:18.439 the bargaining process, Like we we don't know about it. 1:50:19.160 --> 1:50:20.640 I mean, we did find out about it, and then 1:50:20.680 --> 1:50:25.479 we followed the UM the the complaint and so right 1:50:25.479 --> 1:50:27.200 now we're at a point where we've gotten a lot 1:50:27.240 --> 1:50:30.400 of things, you know, kind of like moved on in 1:50:30.560 --> 1:50:33.000 terms of things that aren't compensation in terms of our 1:50:33.040 --> 1:50:36.680 bargaining UM, like things that we want such as bullying protections. 1:50:37.040 --> 1:50:38.519 That was something that we actually had to like have 1:50:38.640 --> 1:50:41.080 a big action for to actually get that on the table. 1:50:41.160 --> 1:50:45.400 To move. So currently we won protections against bullying, which 1:50:45.479 --> 1:50:50.200 is kind of like pretty enormous because in academia, university 1:50:50.200 --> 1:50:52.360 says we're against bullying and that they have all these 1:50:52.439 --> 1:50:55.559 resources for you, but through resources always end at we're right, 1:50:55.640 --> 1:50:59.560 you're wrong. And UM. Now we have something in our contracts, 1:50:59.760 --> 1:51:02.200 not just for that post docs and acondic researchers, but 1:51:02.280 --> 1:51:05.400 also for UM the other bargaining units to actually protect 1:51:05.520 --> 1:51:08.000 us UM in a process that like we could grieve 1:51:08.040 --> 1:51:12.200 it as you know, UNI represented workers UM. And so 1:51:12.439 --> 1:51:14.719 right now, the reason that we had to authorize the strike, 1:51:15.120 --> 1:51:17.840 especially for our group as post docs and economic researchers, 1:51:18.439 --> 1:51:23.360 because they started bargaining kind of like maybe UM further 1:51:23.439 --> 1:51:25.639 along in that year with us, but they are kind 1:51:25.640 --> 1:51:27.400 of at the same place of like not getting the 1:51:27.439 --> 1:51:31.479 same type of responses and UM. We just want them 1:51:31.520 --> 1:51:33.400 to actually come to the table, bring the people that 1:51:33.439 --> 1:51:36.080 can make the decisions so that we can have you know, 1:51:36.240 --> 1:51:39.439 affordable housing, fair wages to actually do the research that 1:51:39.520 --> 1:51:41.400 we do here. And I just want to say that 1:51:41.479 --> 1:51:43.360 we bring a lot of value to the university through 1:51:43.640 --> 1:51:46.479 grants in particular as post talks, so we do most 1:51:46.520 --> 1:51:50.240 of the writing of research papers, conducting the experiments. UM. 1:51:50.320 --> 1:51:52.559 People think that if people think that faculty sit there 1:51:52.600 --> 1:51:54.760 and run a wet lab and actually do the you know, 1:51:54.840 --> 1:51:57.120 the work of the wet labs. Um. You know, that 1:51:57.160 --> 1:51:59.400 would be an amazing faculty person, But they're really busy 1:51:59.400 --> 1:52:01.640 in terms of like having to write grants themselves. We 1:52:01.800 --> 1:52:03.479 do the bulk of the work and actually making the 1:52:03.520 --> 1:52:05.920 research happen. UM. We do a bulk of the training 1:52:05.960 --> 1:52:08.200 in terms of the graduate students and the undergrads that 1:52:08.240 --> 1:52:10.759 are in the lab, and so we provide an enormous 1:52:10.800 --> 1:52:13.439 value to the university. But at the same time, while 1:52:13.479 --> 1:52:17.360 we provide these values, UM, the university doesn't want to 1:52:17.479 --> 1:52:21.680 give us a fair living condition or affordable housing. And 1:52:21.840 --> 1:52:23.639 the last thing I'll say and then I'll let Alex 1:52:23.680 --> 1:52:26.360 talk about the other units, UM, is that you know, 1:52:26.760 --> 1:52:28.800 we bring a ton of value to the university because 1:52:28.840 --> 1:52:31.160 of these grants. And for every hundred dollars of that 1:52:31.280 --> 1:52:35.240 grant that is UM given to the university, the university 1:52:35.360 --> 1:52:38.240 charges things like the nih you know, um, you know, 1:52:38.640 --> 1:52:42.719 fifty eight dollars and indirects. So this is a ghost 1:52:42.800 --> 1:52:45.080 money that we don't know where it goes. Our pis 1:52:45.120 --> 1:52:47.719 don't get to have a say over, and that's money 1:52:47.800 --> 1:52:50.439 that usually goes to things that capital projects that could 1:52:50.479 --> 1:52:54.719 go back to keeping you know, um, the post docs 1:52:54.800 --> 1:52:59.479 actually living in uh An Okay living situation. We just 1:53:00.000 --> 1:53:03.439 in what capital projects are so counter projects or things 1:53:03.479 --> 1:53:07.200 like you know, um planning out building buildings that they 1:53:07.280 --> 1:53:10.640 want and other things things that aren't really like compensation 1:53:10.720 --> 1:53:13.400 based or employee based, you know, because the university, like 1:53:13.439 --> 1:53:16.160 you see as the biggest landowner and so they obviously 1:53:16.280 --> 1:53:18.200 we want more and more things that they can develop 1:53:19.000 --> 1:53:21.599 or lands that they can buy um, and that's kind 1:53:21.640 --> 1:53:24.120 of what they kind of focus many of these indirects on. 1:53:24.520 --> 1:53:26.519 And I really don't know the clear picture on indirects, 1:53:26.640 --> 1:53:28.400 and that's kind of the problem is that we don't 1:53:28.439 --> 1:53:32.559 know where all this money kind of goes. It's they 1:53:32.640 --> 1:53:35.160 if people. Obviously lots of our listeners are in San Diego. 1:53:35.240 --> 1:53:41.080 The scale of construction at UCSD is incredible. Like I've 1:53:41.240 --> 1:53:43.519 been here for fifteen years now, and I swear every 1:53:43.560 --> 1:53:47.000 time I go back there's a new building, like and 1:53:47.120 --> 1:53:50.960 they contend to student housing. It's really old student housing. 1:53:51.000 --> 1:53:52.880 I think that they've built. But yeah, and if I 1:53:52.920 --> 1:53:54.840 can jump in about one of those, which relates a 1:53:54.920 --> 1:53:59.080 lot to why graduate students have become more active on 1:53:59.160 --> 1:54:03.080 this campus. UM. Three or four of those extraordinarily large 1:54:03.080 --> 1:54:05.840 buildings you're talking about, we're actually intended to be built 1:54:06.040 --> 1:54:09.400 as subsidized graduate student housing, where you would be you know, 1:54:09.479 --> 1:54:11.680 you get on a waite list, you're guaranteed once you 1:54:11.720 --> 1:54:12.960 get off the way, which you can live there for 1:54:13.040 --> 1:54:17.639 two years and pay below market rent. UM. That lasted 1:54:17.760 --> 1:54:21.000 for a little bit of time, but the university just 1:54:21.080 --> 1:54:24.439 a couple of years ago or so almost doubled um 1:54:24.760 --> 1:54:27.600 the price for those units. They tried to hide it 1:54:27.680 --> 1:54:31.519 behind saying that their capacity increases, but um, what they're 1:54:31.520 --> 1:54:33.320 saying is for the same price as before, you can 1:54:33.400 --> 1:54:35.720 live with two people in a very small square footage 1:54:35.760 --> 1:54:38.760 studio apartment. UM. But really that studio is now just 1:54:39.080 --> 1:54:42.640 double UM. So that is one of the things, uh, 1:54:42.720 --> 1:54:45.040 certainly that we are concerned about is that, Yeah, money 1:54:45.240 --> 1:54:47.800 of what significant portion university's budget does go into these 1:54:47.880 --> 1:54:51.880 capital improvement projects which are nominally intended for student and 1:54:52.400 --> 1:54:56.640 UH and postdoc benefit UM, but which tend to come 1:54:56.680 --> 1:54:58.880 back and and not be quite as helpful in the 1:54:58.920 --> 1:55:00.880 long run. I mean, it seems like they're just doing 1:55:00.960 --> 1:55:05.440 real estate speculation and then doing rent extraction from it, 1:55:05.600 --> 1:55:08.000 which yeah, and this is something they've done, like they 1:55:08.080 --> 1:55:10.520 did this, this is a very very similar thing in 1:55:10.920 --> 1:55:14.240 what like two thousand nine. Like like again, like they 1:55:14.320 --> 1:55:16.440 built what I built into your building. It was affordable 1:55:16.440 --> 1:55:17.720 for a short a period of time, and then it 1:55:17.760 --> 1:55:22.600 suddenly became completely unaffordable, and like they've really consistently extracted 1:55:22.640 --> 1:55:25.920 rent from the people that they are under paying. Yeah, 1:55:26.000 --> 1:55:28.920 and those buildings were actually this this incident even got 1:55:28.960 --> 1:55:31.560 a lot of faculty on our side because those buildings 1:55:31.720 --> 1:55:35.400 were a major um draw for how we were able 1:55:35.440 --> 1:55:37.880 to recruit new people to come and do research with us. 1:55:37.920 --> 1:55:39.440 As we were saying, yeah, the costle living here is 1:55:39.480 --> 1:55:42.080 really high. You're not going to get a huge stipend 1:55:42.160 --> 1:55:44.880 er salary, but we do have the subsidised housing. And 1:55:45.320 --> 1:55:48.160 people had actually already committed to do their PhD here 1:55:48.280 --> 1:55:51.400 in labs of the university, and then the rent increase 1:55:51.480 --> 1:55:54.440 came out that April or May and people said well no, 1:55:54.680 --> 1:55:56.879 and then they a bunch of people decommitted from programs. 1:55:57.120 --> 1:55:59.320 So it was it was a significant issue here. But 1:56:00.040 --> 1:56:03.800 if not backed off of that, and the problem with 1:56:03.960 --> 1:56:06.360 like the university being one of the biggest landlords, is 1:56:06.400 --> 1:56:09.560 that when they increase the rents for these even grad housing, 1:56:09.600 --> 1:56:13.160 it affects everyone else. So like prices, like my current rent, 1:56:13.280 --> 1:56:16.080 I live maybe a mile away from campus. My rent 1:56:16.240 --> 1:56:19.160 was seventeen hundred, which was eating up most of my 1:56:19.640 --> 1:56:23.760 income anyway, and it went up to and you know, 1:56:23.920 --> 1:56:26.440 this is directly tied to like the university setting a 1:56:26.520 --> 1:56:29.600 higher market rate UM, which then allows them to hurt 1:56:29.640 --> 1:56:33.200 everyone else that lives you know, not just in around UCSD, 1:56:33.360 --> 1:56:36.480 but also in San Diego generally. Yeah. One of the 1:56:36.520 --> 1:56:38.680 big things about UM that we're trying to get the 1:56:38.760 --> 1:56:40.640 university to understand, and one of the reasons I'm proud 1:56:40.680 --> 1:56:43.680 of the demands that we're making UH in this round 1:56:43.720 --> 1:56:45.560 of bargaining is is the effect we have on the 1:56:45.640 --> 1:56:48.720 local economy and of people who aren't even affiliated with 1:56:48.800 --> 1:56:52.320 the university have their lives affected based on the rent 1:56:52.400 --> 1:56:53.960 and based on the cost of things because of the 1:56:54.080 --> 1:56:57.280 economic footprint that we have. And as how I mentioned, 1:56:57.320 --> 1:57:01.160 one of our demands is UM some more subsidized transit passes. 1:57:01.200 --> 1:57:04.320 The university already subsidizes It's a significant amount of transit, 1:57:04.400 --> 1:57:06.440 but it's not enough, and it's not enough to actually 1:57:06.520 --> 1:57:08.920 really make a difference in terms of emissions in our region. 1:57:09.000 --> 1:57:11.839 So we're trying to raise both our own working conditions 1:57:11.880 --> 1:57:14.800 as well as as make meaningful changes in the university's 1:57:14.840 --> 1:57:17.640 impact in the region. And in response to that, the 1:57:17.720 --> 1:57:20.920 university released in part a very funny statement the other 1:57:21.000 --> 1:57:23.400 day that accused us and used transit as an example, 1:57:23.760 --> 1:57:27.080 accused us of having a quote social justice agenda. So 1:57:27.440 --> 1:57:31.200 I wasn't quite sure if the university or um Ronda 1:57:31.280 --> 1:57:34.760 Santis wrote that particular sans release, but uh, it was. 1:57:34.960 --> 1:57:38.640 It was quite funny, you know, Okay, like that. The 1:57:38.720 --> 1:57:41.680 more thinking about this, right, this is a public university. 1:57:41.920 --> 1:57:45.880 Why are they even charging rent? They own the land, right, 1:57:46.200 --> 1:57:48.560 why are they even charging rent in the first place? 1:57:48.600 --> 1:57:51.480 Like what what is? Oh my god? Like, well, it's 1:57:51.520 --> 1:57:54.800 just the the housing example I brought up was funded 1:57:54.840 --> 1:57:57.880 through what they very proudly refer to as a public 1:57:57.960 --> 1:58:01.680 private partnership. So that's where the one is going. Oh great, 1:58:02.640 --> 1:58:07.400 it's going to investors. And recently, for the post docs, 1:58:07.560 --> 1:58:10.800 their solution to our housing crisis was they obtained some 1:58:11.840 --> 1:58:14.600 building in downtown San Diego, which is you know, twelve 1:58:14.680 --> 1:58:17.480 or more miles away from campus and the building starts 1:58:17.520 --> 1:58:20.840 at like rent of three thousand dollars or more. But 1:58:20.960 --> 1:58:23.640 like I said, this building, yeah, with the one with 1:58:23.720 --> 1:58:26.680 the creepy bed and the closet that comes out and 1:58:26.800 --> 1:58:30.880 kills your cat. But you know what it has like 1:58:31.360 --> 1:58:35.960 a closet that folds out o comes out. Is that 1:58:36.040 --> 1:58:38.360 their extended downtown. Yeah. I've been trying to p R 1:58:38.400 --> 1:58:40.240 A and a bunch of stuff about that building and 1:58:40.320 --> 1:58:45.920 they've been quite reticent to hand it over and toddly. So, Alex, 1:58:45.960 --> 1:58:47.560 is there any more contexts you wanted to add from 1:58:47.600 --> 1:58:50.920 your side about like is about sort of what is 1:58:51.000 --> 1:58:55.480 driving people to to ask for a strike authorization vote? Yeah, definitely. 1:58:55.520 --> 1:58:59.240 I mean, our concerns as graduate students are certainly very 1:58:59.280 --> 1:59:03.040 similar to a out of the concerns that postdoctoral students have, 1:59:03.640 --> 1:59:05.920 except that we make even less money than they do. 1:59:06.080 --> 1:59:10.200 So certainly UH urgent on the compensation side, our units 1:59:10.200 --> 1:59:14.800 are demanding a minimum UH graduate student stipend of fifty 1:59:14.840 --> 1:59:17.920 four thousand dollars a year UM, whereas UH none of 1:59:18.000 --> 1:59:20.320 us make more than thirty three or thirty four right now, 1:59:20.400 --> 1:59:22.879 and that's very deficient of the program and very dependent 1:59:23.040 --> 1:59:27.280 on your source of funding, so most make quite less 1:59:27.360 --> 1:59:29.880 than that. UM. We also have a number of other 1:59:30.040 --> 1:59:33.600 issues that have come up and cause problems for students 1:59:33.640 --> 1:59:35.000 that we want to be able to have a union 1:59:35.080 --> 1:59:38.600 in order to rectify. I mentioned that UM our Student 1:59:38.680 --> 1:59:41.600 Researchers United Union. It actually knew. We're bargaining for our 1:59:41.680 --> 1:59:43.920 first contract, and we think we're going to be able 1:59:43.960 --> 1:59:45.560 to get a lot of practical benefits out of that, 1:59:45.720 --> 1:59:48.080 not just UM you know, in terms of a contract, 1:59:48.160 --> 1:59:51.320 but actually something where we can have some parody and 1:59:51.480 --> 1:59:53.880 and some for some some some organization to come to 1:59:53.960 --> 1:59:57.880 back for us when the university creates issues. For example, Uh, 1:59:57.960 --> 2:00:00.120 the university has known this for a long time. But 2:00:00.360 --> 2:00:03.920 the payroll system that manages graduate students stipends and fellowships 2:00:03.960 --> 2:00:06.720 and and and and to stipend disperse mints is a 2:00:06.800 --> 2:00:12.880 bit unreliable for reasons that they can't explain. Boy, so 2:00:13.200 --> 2:00:15.200 I wasn't I wasn't a grad student, but I was 2:00:15.320 --> 2:00:18.800 an undergrad when our Chicago's grad students when a strike, 2:00:19.280 --> 2:00:22.400 and that was a big thing of like people like 2:00:22.480 --> 2:00:24.760 people would get paid in the university would sometimes they 2:00:25.000 --> 2:00:26.800 wouldn't get paid enough. The wouldn't get paid at all. 2:00:26.960 --> 2:00:29.880 There was another time where they accidentally get overpaid and 2:00:29.920 --> 2:00:31.600 the university wouldn't tell them and then they just take 2:00:31.640 --> 2:00:35.720 all the money out of their bank account and catastrophe. Yeah. 2:00:36.800 --> 2:00:42.800 Is it similar things here? Very much? So? Yeah, yeah, 2:00:42.840 --> 2:00:46.480 there is at least My personal story with this is 2:00:47.000 --> 2:00:51.160 um uh pretty much ever since so, I applied for 2:00:51.280 --> 2:00:55.400 and received in in i H Individual Fellowship. For all 2:00:55.440 --> 2:00:57.160 the other nerds out there, I got it. It's a 2:00:57.480 --> 2:01:00.200 thirty one in i H Fellowship. But essentially what that 2:01:00.240 --> 2:01:02.480 says is the n i H likes my research proposal 2:01:02.520 --> 2:01:04.720 and they are going to fund a portion of the 2:01:04.760 --> 2:01:07.960 rest of my PhD. So in a sense, I've offset 2:01:08.000 --> 2:01:10.000 the cost of my labor by bringing an extra a 2:01:10.080 --> 2:01:14.080 few tens of thousands of dollars to the university. Um However, 2:01:14.760 --> 2:01:17.960 the processing for that has not been smooth, and there 2:01:18.000 --> 2:01:20.200 are months where I simply have to remind them to 2:01:20.280 --> 2:01:23.880 pay me. And when that paycheck doesn't come through, my 2:01:24.520 --> 2:01:26.920 very hard working program coordinator, it's not her fault, but 2:01:26.960 --> 2:01:28.640 she has been open support tickets. She has to go 2:01:28.720 --> 2:01:30.960 through ten different levels of bureaucracy to find out where 2:01:31.000 --> 2:01:33.560 the hold up is, and so What that results in 2:01:33.960 --> 2:01:38.240 is people often times not getting significant portions of their 2:01:38.280 --> 2:01:40.960 stipend and tell well into the beginning of the first 2:01:41.080 --> 2:01:44.640 or second week of the month. UM. I personally am 2:01:44.800 --> 2:01:46.839 been lucky enough to you know, build up some savings 2:01:47.280 --> 2:01:50.680 living here UM, but many students, especially our first year 2:01:50.720 --> 2:01:53.680 is coming right out of college, have not been able 2:01:53.720 --> 2:01:55.840 to do that. And a lot of times at the 2:01:55.880 --> 2:01:57.840 first of the month we have people, you know, people 2:01:57.880 --> 2:02:00.640 will come to me and say they just didn't they 2:02:00.800 --> 2:02:02.400 I don't know why my stipmens I didn't work. I 2:02:02.440 --> 2:02:05.480 can't pay rent, or I can't get groceries. And these 2:02:05.600 --> 2:02:08.080 issues have been going on. This have not been one 2:02:08.160 --> 2:02:10.280 time things or sporadic things. These are things that have 2:02:10.400 --> 2:02:15.200 been continuously going on for years. And what we're really 2:02:15.280 --> 2:02:18.280 hoping for is that with the creation of this Student 2:02:18.320 --> 2:02:20.440 Researchers Union, that we will be able to not just 2:02:20.560 --> 2:02:22.600 you know, send polite emails and say hi, can you 2:02:22.680 --> 2:02:25.800 pay me if you get a chance, We will actually 2:02:25.960 --> 2:02:30.160 have a literal international union that will be sending those 2:02:30.240 --> 2:02:32.560 emails and say, you know, you fix this, or by 2:02:32.600 --> 2:02:34.280 the terms of the contract, we get X, Y and 2:02:34.400 --> 2:02:37.400 Z damages UM. And we're hoping that that leads to 2:02:37.480 --> 2:02:39.560 improvements in the system as a as a whole, because 2:02:39.640 --> 2:02:42.160 it will get more expensive. So that issaraily. One of 2:02:42.160 --> 2:02:44.240 the reasons we formed s are you and are after 2:02:44.440 --> 2:02:48.040 a brief vote to strike for recognition because the university 2:02:48.560 --> 2:02:53.160 ignored the employee religious part of California, which resulted in 2:02:53.240 --> 2:02:57.080 some very spicy press releases from herbs which is great, um, 2:02:57.480 --> 2:03:00.360 but we did eventually get recognition and and now hopefully 2:03:00.400 --> 2:03:01.640 in a couple in a month or so, we'll have 2:03:01.720 --> 2:03:04.600 a contract. Yeah, to explain for people as well who 2:03:04.600 --> 2:03:07.000 aren't familiar. If you're teaching right, you may not have 2:03:07.120 --> 2:03:11.480 been paid over the summer in some positions like I 2:03:11.600 --> 2:03:14.280 know I wasn't in mind, so like a late payment 2:03:14.560 --> 2:03:17.760 in September or even wait until October, like is you're 2:03:17.800 --> 2:03:21.600 already at the bottom of your savings, like there were 2:03:22.160 --> 2:03:25.880 there were full quarters the headquarters at UCSD where like 2:03:25.960 --> 2:03:28.720 I lived in my car because it didn't make it 2:03:28.760 --> 2:03:30.600 all the way through the summer and the savings I had, 2:03:30.640 --> 2:03:32.840 you know, So it really is. And I'm sure there 2:03:32.840 --> 2:03:35.040 are a lot of still like and how it's graduate 2:03:35.080 --> 2:03:38.320 students at UCSD because of the cost of living in 2:03:38.400 --> 2:03:42.680 the the wags are so divergent. Yeah, hey, Chris, you 2:03:42.840 --> 2:03:45.000 you know what won't make you live in your car? 2:03:45.840 --> 2:03:50.320 Oh God, there's no way that's It's going to be 2:03:50.360 --> 2:04:00.520 the watches that Harry patrol again, Todd Gloria, Okay, yeah, 2:04:00.600 --> 2:04:02.960 this has brought to you by Landlords into The's adverts 2:04:03.800 --> 2:04:06.600 and we're back. And so what I wanted to talk 2:04:06.600 --> 2:04:08.960 about was some of the actions that have been taken 2:04:09.360 --> 2:04:12.720 by student organizations so far, and also some of the 2:04:12.800 --> 2:04:16.000 repercussions to come from those actions, because again, student organizing 2:04:16.080 --> 2:04:18.080 is a little different, and I want people to understand that. 2:04:18.640 --> 2:04:22.720 So maybe if it makes sense to start with this wildcats, right, 2:04:22.760 --> 2:04:24.720 we can start there. If you want to start further back, 2:04:24.760 --> 2:04:28.280 then we can start fither back to you. You know, 2:04:29.360 --> 2:04:32.720 is probably about the extent of my how far my 2:04:32.880 --> 2:04:35.280 experience goes back, Um, But I can tell kind of 2:04:35.320 --> 2:04:38.160 the story of that a little bit. Um. There was 2:04:38.200 --> 2:04:41.400 a movement that we referred to as COLA, which stands 2:04:41.480 --> 2:04:44.560 for a cost of living adjustment and convenient as very 2:04:44.600 --> 2:04:46.960 convenient acronym, which resulted in people coming to protest with 2:04:47.000 --> 2:04:48.760 empty bottles coke on a stick. And that was a 2:04:48.800 --> 2:04:52.440 really common science fantastic UM. But that was a movement 2:04:52.520 --> 2:04:55.520 that started at the University of California, Santa Cruz. One 2:04:55.560 --> 2:04:58.600 of the for people aren't familiar with. You see, it 2:04:58.800 --> 2:05:01.920 is really actually many campuses together in one system. In 2:05:01.960 --> 2:05:04.880 this particular one started at our campus in Santa Cruz, 2:05:05.840 --> 2:05:08.840 UM and it was what is called a wildcat strike, 2:05:08.960 --> 2:05:11.000 which is if you're not family with unions that is 2:05:11.560 --> 2:05:14.600 um UM, at least in America, there are very uh 2:05:15.040 --> 2:05:17.760 careful rules that you have to follow of when exactly 2:05:17.840 --> 2:05:20.480 you are allowed to call a legally protected strike, and 2:05:20.560 --> 2:05:22.800 that's often dependent on your contract or the label laws 2:05:22.840 --> 2:05:26.200 of your state. UM. But it is possible for workers 2:05:26.240 --> 2:05:30.240 to get together without the explicit approval of their union 2:05:30.560 --> 2:05:35.000 and UH take the added risk that involves to hold 2:05:35.040 --> 2:05:37.800 a labor stoppage so UM I'm not sure of the 2:05:37.880 --> 2:05:41.080 exact number, but somewhere between fifty and a hundred or 2:05:41.160 --> 2:05:44.040 two hundred or so t a s um SO teaching 2:05:44.080 --> 2:05:48.200 assistance at the Santa Cruz campus decided to withhold teaching 2:05:48.320 --> 2:05:52.520 and also final exam and UH semester or sorry quarter 2:05:53.360 --> 2:05:58.040 grades UH for a quarter uh in I believe this 2:05:58.120 --> 2:06:02.000 would have been fall or followed twenty team UM and 2:06:02.480 --> 2:06:06.880 they held UM. They held essentially daily pickets and protests 2:06:07.560 --> 2:06:11.560 UM at their central insrance of their campus, and this 2:06:11.720 --> 2:06:17.320 resulted in quite an extreme response from Santa Cruz administration, 2:06:17.680 --> 2:06:20.600 University of Santa Cruz administration. UH. They called in the 2:06:20.680 --> 2:06:25.280 California Highway Patrol. UM. Also there's will I've asked, I'll 2:06:25.320 --> 2:06:27.839 send this to christ and James put in the footnotes. 2:06:27.880 --> 2:06:29.960 But there is a Vice article where someone did a 2:06:30.040 --> 2:06:32.240 lot of public records request and found out that the 2:06:32.360 --> 2:06:35.960 FBI was also involved, or at least FBI provided technology 2:06:36.080 --> 2:06:38.800 was involved. UM. There may have been sort of counter 2:06:38.920 --> 2:06:44.000 terrorism UH units involved in the state in interesting ways UM. 2:06:44.080 --> 2:06:47.440 But essentially there was a highly militarized response to what 2:06:47.640 --> 2:06:51.640 was essentially a few grant students not doing grades. UM. 2:06:52.000 --> 2:06:54.680 So this response, the images that came out of this, 2:06:54.840 --> 2:06:57.440 people getting arrested UH for being in the street and 2:06:57.520 --> 2:07:01.560 such UM started to actually provoke sympathy actions across the 2:07:01.640 --> 2:07:04.000 rest of the campus and there was really a campus 2:07:04.080 --> 2:07:08.480 wide or system wide movement starting to build. And then 2:07:08.600 --> 2:07:12.200 March of happened and almost all of us are labs 2:07:12.200 --> 2:07:15.160 shut down, the campuses shut down, UH. Those of us 2:07:15.160 --> 2:07:17.560 who work from home could, UM. Those of us who 2:07:17.560 --> 2:07:19.720 couldn't often had you know, many other struggles to deal with, 2:07:19.800 --> 2:07:23.120 and that kind of killed the pandemic, essentially killed that movement. 2:07:23.200 --> 2:07:27.280 But at the same time, UM, you know these uhh 2:07:27.720 --> 2:07:29.720 u A W twets at five and you could get 2:07:29.760 --> 2:07:32.280 ten already existed. SRU was starting to get formed at 2:07:32.280 --> 2:07:34.680 this time. We actually managed to get car check recognition 2:07:34.800 --> 2:07:36.440 during the pandemic where no one could actually go to 2:07:36.520 --> 2:07:38.520 one central point in get cards. So I'm quite proud 2:07:38.560 --> 2:07:41.320 of that. And we sort of rebuilt off of kind 2:07:41.400 --> 2:07:44.320 of UM, sort of the ashes of that movement. And 2:07:44.360 --> 2:07:47.480 even though it was not UM and I personally supported, 2:07:47.520 --> 2:07:50.120 but even though it was not a university sort of 2:07:50.560 --> 2:07:56.200 excuse me, certainly not university supported, but union supported uh movement. UM, 2:07:56.320 --> 2:07:59.880 I think it really helped a kind of um plants 2:08:00.040 --> 2:08:03.080 needs for graduate students and post docx having some you know, 2:08:03.320 --> 2:08:05.680 some degree of labor consciousness. When I was doing walkers 2:08:05.720 --> 2:08:07.520 to get people signed up for the union, get people 2:08:07.920 --> 2:08:09.960 quote on the strike, they would say, you know, they 2:08:10.000 --> 2:08:11.720 haven't obviously been keeping track of all the barguing, but 2:08:11.760 --> 2:08:13.320 would say, oh, yeah, I remember, is this like in 2:08:13.360 --> 2:08:15.720 Santa Cruz, I remember what they did, and people would 2:08:15.760 --> 2:08:18.920 be and be ready, you know, to get involved. So um, 2:08:19.640 --> 2:08:24.200 it was a deferred kind of benefit given the pandemic, 2:08:24.320 --> 2:08:26.840 but I think it helped get a lot of the 2:08:26.960 --> 2:08:30.280 energy that we have today. Yeah, that's great to see actually, 2:08:30.280 --> 2:08:32.920 because iknew we really struggled with sort of political consciousness 2:08:32.960 --> 2:08:35.880 on the on the among the grab seeds in my 2:08:36.000 --> 2:08:38.000 time at E C. S D. And Yeah, I guess 2:08:38.040 --> 2:08:39.520 it makes us like that they were I remember, like 2:08:39.680 --> 2:08:41.800 I were talking to some people who were sort of 2:08:41.840 --> 2:08:44.040 involved with it, and like watching the videos coming out 2:08:44.040 --> 2:08:47.320 of here, like that was I think, like probably the 2:08:47.360 --> 2:08:50.160 most intensive military responsive I think I've ever seen to 2:08:50.240 --> 2:08:53.200 a strike at the US. It was wild. Like, Yeah, 2:08:54.040 --> 2:08:57.240 the university chancellor, chancellor of Santa Cruz at that time 2:08:57.920 --> 2:09:00.280 bragged or I don't know if it was Brad or 2:09:00.400 --> 2:09:03.480 complained that they were spending three hundred thousand dollars a 2:09:03.600 --> 2:09:08.440 day on that response. Yeah, they went incredibly hard. And 2:09:08.480 --> 2:09:11.200 I want to kind of get into why, like the 2:09:11.480 --> 2:09:16.600 university is really really strongly strongly dislike strikes and partly 2:09:16.720 --> 2:09:19.720 because they rely heavily on underpaid graduate student labor and 2:09:19.920 --> 2:09:23.680 increasingly relying heavily on underpaid adjunct labor as well to 2:09:23.800 --> 2:09:27.200 take the place of these expensive tenure track positions. So 2:09:27.920 --> 2:09:30.280 can we talk about a little bit about like what 2:09:30.440 --> 2:09:32.280 it means to strike as a grad student, because it's 2:09:32.320 --> 2:09:34.400 not the same strike as a grad student as it 2:09:34.520 --> 2:09:37.360 is to strike if you work on a production lineup right, Like, 2:09:37.680 --> 2:09:40.520 it really can make a serious impact on your whole career, 2:09:40.600 --> 2:09:42.040 and it can make it a serious impact on your 2:09:42.080 --> 2:09:46.000 relationship prets with your with your supervisor or advisor or mentor, 2:09:46.400 --> 2:09:49.120 and so can you can you one of you or 2:09:49.200 --> 2:09:51.360 both of you explained a little bit about the repercussions 2:09:51.360 --> 2:09:55.920 to come from striking as a graduate student. Yeah, I'm 2:09:55.920 --> 2:09:58.800 having to share my thoughts and then and then um Tyther, 2:09:58.880 --> 2:10:00.920 you can maybe talk about what uh what post docs 2:10:00.960 --> 2:10:06.040 are thinking? Um from the uh t A perspective, I 2:10:06.120 --> 2:10:08.920 think I don't want to. I'm not currently I'm currently 2:10:08.920 --> 2:10:11.520 a student researchers, so I'm not currently teaching, I think, 2:10:11.800 --> 2:10:13.840 and that since it makes there's a little more cut 2:10:13.920 --> 2:10:16.000 and dry. It's you're not going to teach your discussion section, 2:10:16.080 --> 2:10:18.160 You're not going to grade your exams. There's are very 2:10:18.240 --> 2:10:20.680 concrete things you can do that are sort of separate 2:10:20.760 --> 2:10:24.280 from your research work. For those of us paid to research, 2:10:24.400 --> 2:10:27.800 it's a little bit um harder to figure out where 2:10:27.840 --> 2:10:30.840 exactly you're sometimes you're labor for the university is and 2:10:31.200 --> 2:10:34.960 where you're um uh kind of research and and and 2:10:35.080 --> 2:10:36.880 not wanting to sort of harm yourself. Like I know 2:10:36.960 --> 2:10:39.760 people who have planned their advancements to candidacy during this time, 2:10:39.800 --> 2:10:42.000 and I think they're still going through with that because 2:10:42.080 --> 2:10:44.080 we can say, well, that's more academic, that's more your 2:10:44.160 --> 2:10:47.680 personal a kind of progress um in life, and and 2:10:47.880 --> 2:10:52.040 so those sort of things will continue, um. But but 2:10:52.240 --> 2:10:55.760 I think it's one of the things, um that that's 2:10:55.800 --> 2:11:01.720 sort of um important is is um sort of your 2:11:02.320 --> 2:11:05.720 day to day work in the lab and not necessarily 2:11:05.760 --> 2:11:08.200 saying your research project, but on just sort of maintaining things, 2:11:08.280 --> 2:11:12.360 answering questions, communicating with collaborators, sharing your results with people, 2:11:12.800 --> 2:11:16.839 helping undergraduates in the lab, helping um you know, prepare 2:11:17.000 --> 2:11:20.600 figures or prepare text for your advisor to submit grants, 2:11:20.680 --> 2:11:23.080 and all these other things that are not necessarily like 2:11:23.160 --> 2:11:25.560 I am doing this particular, you know, I think for 2:11:25.640 --> 2:11:27.720 my degree. UM. So I know a lot of people 2:11:27.720 --> 2:11:31.240 are worried about, especially because in the life sciences. We 2:11:31.320 --> 2:11:33.880 have situations where we have experiments that go on for 2:11:34.040 --> 2:11:36.920 months and they cost tens of thousands of dollars to run, 2:11:36.960 --> 2:11:38.560 and if you miss a time point on that we're 2:11:38.600 --> 2:11:40.560 throwing months of your life and out of the window, 2:11:40.640 --> 2:11:43.600 and that it hurts yourself really more than the university. 2:11:43.680 --> 2:11:47.320 So it's been a I think, especially because organizing grad 2:11:47.400 --> 2:11:51.720 student researchers is something new, at least in America. UM. 2:11:52.400 --> 2:11:55.640 I think it's something that in the coming years will 2:11:55.840 --> 2:11:58.640 be kind of considered more and people will kind of 2:11:58.760 --> 2:12:00.520 I think I hope. What I hope is people learn 2:12:00.600 --> 2:12:03.000 from our whatever our experience happens to be next week 2:12:03.040 --> 2:12:06.120 when we walk out and start to kind of calibrate, 2:12:06.200 --> 2:12:08.000 what does it look like? What is what is an 2:12:08.040 --> 2:12:11.560 effective work stoppage for a researcher look like? UM? And 2:12:11.640 --> 2:12:13.960 I think people are are We've had a lot of discussions, 2:12:14.120 --> 2:12:15.960 We've had programmed meetings, so a bunch of students from 2:12:16.000 --> 2:12:18.200 my program got together and talked about this UM and 2:12:18.280 --> 2:12:20.320 I think it might end up looking different for different people, 2:12:20.400 --> 2:12:22.840 But really what we're trying to communicate is is don't 2:12:22.880 --> 2:12:27.000 do something that's going to UM, you know, damage yourself. UM. 2:12:27.760 --> 2:12:30.879 But but but do what you can to disrupt normal operations. 2:12:30.920 --> 2:12:33.880 Show up at the picket, um uh, and and make 2:12:33.920 --> 2:12:37.120 sure you you communicate, you know, to everyone and around 2:12:37.200 --> 2:12:39.960 you why you're leaving, and and and you know, cause 2:12:40.000 --> 2:12:42.680 as much disruption as you can. That's kind of what 2:12:42.800 --> 2:12:46.080 our our thinking is at the moment. Yeah, and I 2:12:46.160 --> 2:12:48.880 thin guts you want to add t Yeah, so I 2:12:48.920 --> 2:12:51.960 want to add that. UM. So for this one, this strike, 2:12:52.640 --> 2:12:54.640 I mean, the reason that we're doing it is because 2:12:55.040 --> 2:12:58.120 they're not coming to the table in good faith. So 2:12:58.240 --> 2:13:00.120 I was going to correct my numbers. So we had 2:13:00.160 --> 2:13:03.520 twenty seven UM complaints that we fouled with the California 2:13:03.600 --> 2:13:08.280 Public Employment Relations Board, and six of those were actually 2:13:08.320 --> 2:13:11.760 official complaints to the University of California. And so this 2:13:11.800 --> 2:13:14.720 strike is a little different because it's you know, it's 2:13:15.120 --> 2:13:18.600 interesting to have to explain to other people why this 2:13:18.720 --> 2:13:22.000 is so important, especially in such a short time frame. 2:13:22.560 --> 2:13:24.320 And so for post docs, like on a day to 2:13:24.360 --> 2:13:28.839 day basis, we do so much research that every day matters, 2:13:29.480 --> 2:13:32.480 and our employment schedules aren't very long. So I say 2:13:32.520 --> 2:13:34.520 that post docs are generally in there for five years. 2:13:35.040 --> 2:13:36.880 But p I don't want to keep a post talk 2:13:36.920 --> 2:13:40.880 for a year or two or longer, especially like I've 2:13:40.920 --> 2:13:44.200 noticed a pattern here in academia in general that post docs. 2:13:44.320 --> 2:13:46.720 It's some people prefer to keep them a year and 2:13:46.760 --> 2:13:48.840 two years because by the time you ask for pay 2:13:48.920 --> 2:13:51.200 raises or the time you ask for curd development and 2:13:51.280 --> 2:13:53.480 to get to your next stage, you're not worth it 2:13:53.560 --> 2:13:56.760 to them anymore, and they change you out. So when 2:13:56.840 --> 2:13:58.720 I come in as a post doc, each position, I've 2:13:58.760 --> 2:14:02.080 come in everyday mattered and setting up my research experiment, 2:14:02.120 --> 2:14:04.520 setting up my papers, setting up what I was gonna 2:14:04.560 --> 2:14:06.680 do for the job search, because you don't have that 2:14:06.760 --> 2:14:08.760 much time. It takes you know, six to eight months 2:14:08.840 --> 2:14:11.879 to get get even an initial interview for a faculty 2:14:11.960 --> 2:14:14.600 job UM, and that's a rare thing that you would 2:14:14.600 --> 2:14:16.720 get anyway. I think about two percent of post talks 2:14:16.760 --> 2:14:20.720 become faculty at this point, and so we're giving up 2:14:20.720 --> 2:14:23.480 a lot of Yeah, it's really bleak, and so like 2:14:24.120 --> 2:14:26.920 right now, I think the fact that we authorize a 2:14:27.000 --> 2:14:30.040 strike based on the UM bad faith bargaining. We did 2:14:30.120 --> 2:14:32.320 that because like things are so important, but we know 2:14:32.400 --> 2:14:34.040 what we're gonna lose. So if you have to strike 2:14:34.440 --> 2:14:37.600 for weeks, that is lost experiments, that's lost time to 2:14:37.720 --> 2:14:42.280 do our publications be competitive for this competitive job field. UM. 2:14:42.360 --> 2:14:43.920 And also we're gonna let down a lot of people 2:14:44.160 --> 2:14:46.360 because we're kind of anchors in our lab for the 2:14:46.440 --> 2:14:50.080 undergraduates and the under and the graduate students and also 2:14:50.160 --> 2:14:52.720 the text in our lab. And so if we're gone, 2:14:52.840 --> 2:14:54.640 the lab just kind of die, especially if the grass 2:14:54.680 --> 2:14:59.440 roots walk out too. UM. But I think we know 2:14:59.640 --> 2:15:03.560 that the value that I would get personally for my career, UM, 2:15:04.280 --> 2:15:07.040 it isn't worth it if I see not only myself 2:15:07.120 --> 2:15:09.240 suffering each year, not being able to make my rent 2:15:09.520 --> 2:15:12.200 enable to feed myself, like eating one mill a day 2:15:12.480 --> 2:15:15.960 is um not really great, and being able to afford 2:15:16.080 --> 2:15:18.840 one UM wardrobe this entire two years of employment is 2:15:18.880 --> 2:15:21.600 not great either. UM. And I'm a post doc and 2:15:21.640 --> 2:15:24.000 I see the graduate students who I was a graduate 2:15:24.000 --> 2:15:26.640 student two years ago. There's not a real border there, 2:15:27.240 --> 2:15:29.720 UM and seeing them suffer. You know, most of us 2:15:29.760 --> 2:15:31.640 post talks don't want to see anyone else have to 2:15:31.720 --> 2:15:34.240 go through that. So it's worth the lost time, and 2:15:34.440 --> 2:15:36.600 it's kind of encalculable. But I could say what we 2:15:36.680 --> 2:15:39.920 would lose because grants are so up in the air. 2:15:40.120 --> 2:15:43.000 But you know, We're talking millions of dollars for a 2:15:43.040 --> 2:15:46.080 grant cycle being lost if a post doc can't you know, 2:15:46.360 --> 2:15:50.280 submit the application. We're talking you know, uh what Alex said, 2:15:50.280 --> 2:15:52.960 how expensive this equipment and experiments are in these big 2:15:53.080 --> 2:15:58.080 labs UM in biology and engineering. So it's really immeasurable. 2:15:58.120 --> 2:15:59.400 And I think it's on the u C to come 2:15:59.440 --> 2:16:01.800 to the table and good faith and say, hey, let's 2:16:01.840 --> 2:16:04.040 not do let's not's not ruin their research and their 2:16:04.080 --> 2:16:06.960 teaching UM, because that's the thing that we're here to 2:16:07.000 --> 2:16:09.800 support UM. And I just want to say that overall, 2:16:10.200 --> 2:16:13.080 we're only less than one percent of you see's total budgets. 2:16:13.120 --> 2:16:15.160 So what is it to give us a fair wage 2:16:15.200 --> 2:16:18.000 and a good housing so we can continue to not UM, 2:16:18.160 --> 2:16:20.240 to continue to continue to do our research and teaching 2:16:20.320 --> 2:16:21.880 and not have to go and strike and lose all 2:16:21.880 --> 2:16:24.960 of this. Yeah, yeah, I think it's very fair. You 2:16:25.040 --> 2:16:28.040 know what else, It only pays out one percent of 2:16:28.120 --> 2:16:34.920 their income to their employee, said the Washington to stay 2:16:34.959 --> 2:16:39.320 higher patrol notes not they pay Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, it's disappointing, 2:16:39.400 --> 2:16:42.960 isn't it. Yeah, We're we're back. Yeah. So I think 2:16:43.000 --> 2:16:45.520 you've done a really excellent job of explaining sort of 2:16:45.600 --> 2:16:48.760 what's at stake and what people can stand to lose. 2:16:48.879 --> 2:16:51.440 I know it can be very confusing. Also as a teacher, 2:16:51.480 --> 2:16:54.080 I will add, like what do you do when you're 2:16:54.200 --> 2:16:56.560 you're not supposed to communicate right like, so, like what 2:16:56.720 --> 2:16:58.480 what about when your students email you? That can be 2:16:58.600 --> 2:17:02.200 very difficult or especially if it comes towards the time 2:17:02.240 --> 2:17:04.760 when you're writing application letters or your writing letters of 2:17:04.840 --> 2:17:07.120 support for your your be a students who want to 2:17:07.120 --> 2:17:09.080 go into an m a. Or pH d program, like 2:17:09.720 --> 2:17:13.400 you don't want like many of us teach as much 2:17:13.440 --> 2:17:16.640 out of vocation as for the thirty ye old grand 2:17:16.680 --> 2:17:18.000 a year. We can make it a place where the 2:17:18.040 --> 2:17:21.400 cost of living is insane, and so like we want 2:17:21.480 --> 2:17:23.680 to help those people because we care about our students 2:17:23.760 --> 2:17:25.600 and and so it can be very hard for us 2:17:25.680 --> 2:17:27.920 to go on strike. I will say that we're very 2:17:27.959 --> 2:17:30.080 fortunate in the community college district here, which is a 2:17:30.160 --> 2:17:33.560 different system and for people who aren't aware it's an 2:17:33.840 --> 2:17:37.600 entirely different university system. We have a very strong union 2:17:37.879 --> 2:17:40.400 and as a result, our I junct faculty here are 2:17:40.640 --> 2:17:42.280 I believe some of the best paid in the country. 2:17:43.160 --> 2:17:46.080 The teacher the community college sometimes and it's exclusively thanks 2:17:46.160 --> 2:17:50.360 to a strong union and faculty being willing to back 2:17:50.480 --> 2:17:53.440 up that union, so like it does work, which is 2:17:53.760 --> 2:17:56.560 nice to see. But let's talk about some of the 2:17:56.600 --> 2:17:59.520 actions that have been taken already and understand it. Some 2:18:00.080 --> 2:18:03.720 folks occupied like a very busy intersection earlier this year 2:18:03.760 --> 2:18:06.360 in the spring, right you want to talk about that. Yeah, 2:18:06.520 --> 2:18:12.480 that was the action that we had um UM back 2:18:12.520 --> 2:18:17.280 in April UM to sort of raise awareness of the 2:18:17.520 --> 2:18:19.400 you know, issues of bargaining and some of the things 2:18:19.400 --> 2:18:22.040 that we're going out at that time UM and I 2:18:22.160 --> 2:18:25.560 was really impressive how well it went, actually UM in 2:18:25.720 --> 2:18:27.960 terms of the number of students who came out number 2:18:28.000 --> 2:18:29.880 we are actually willing to participate in that. But yeah, 2:18:29.879 --> 2:18:33.760 we gotta several hundred people altogether marched down to UM 2:18:34.000 --> 2:18:36.879 the intersection for our San Diego listeners. That's via La 2:18:36.920 --> 2:18:38.720 Joya and La Hoya Village Drive, just so you can 2:18:38.760 --> 2:18:41.080 get a picture of how important of an intersection this 2:18:41.240 --> 2:18:43.440 was those of you who know it. UM and did 2:18:43.520 --> 2:18:45.960 not allow any cars at the intersection for an entire 2:18:46.000 --> 2:18:52.080 rush hour, which was fantastic UM and the whole foods 2:18:53.160 --> 2:18:58.800 we did. Yeah, yeah, I took UH I hope that 2:18:59.200 --> 2:19:02.120 UM sic p D build UCSD for that because they 2:19:02.160 --> 2:19:06.280 had about fifty officers controlling traffic to helicopters. UM it 2:19:06.440 --> 2:19:09.280 was quite a response. I talked to an undercover cop 2:19:09.360 --> 2:19:11.800 on the bridge over the highway they had. He was 2:19:11.920 --> 2:19:15.040 upset that he was missing something, some baseball game or something. 2:19:15.040 --> 2:19:20.000 I don't know. I could have had a real job 2:19:20.680 --> 2:19:25.240 just left. Yeah, I'm actually staring at that intersection right now, 2:19:25.240 --> 2:19:26.840 And if I could tell you how busy it is, 2:19:27.080 --> 2:19:30.760 Like we were terrified of what, Like safety was the 2:19:30.879 --> 2:19:33.280 most important thing, and I think we did a good 2:19:33.320 --> 2:19:35.560 job being sure everyone was safe. But like it's busy, 2:19:35.720 --> 2:19:40.920 it's it is a heartline over your My first day 2:19:40.959 --> 2:19:43.800 in America, I was walking with another Grats to try 2:19:43.840 --> 2:19:46.080 and find some food and we tried to cross that road, 2:19:46.120 --> 2:19:48.520 goes stuck in the middle, got to jaywalking ticket and 2:19:49.600 --> 2:19:53.240 right I knew I had made a great choice in 2:19:53.280 --> 2:19:56.160 coming to California at that time. Yeah, that is that 2:19:56.360 --> 2:19:58.840 road takes like if you want to cross all three ways, 2:19:58.840 --> 2:20:01.000 because it's one of our one of stupid California roads, 2:20:01.000 --> 2:20:02.960 we can only cross the intersection on three sides, so 2:20:03.040 --> 2:20:04.560 we're gonna go all the way around. That's going to 2:20:04.640 --> 2:20:08.240 be like five six, seven minutes waitning at crosswalks. It's 2:20:08.320 --> 2:20:11.560 it's but that's that's for maybe a different podcast about 2:20:12.320 --> 2:20:15.520 nightmares here in San Diego. UM. I think there's one 2:20:15.560 --> 2:20:17.840 other action that we had that I would really want 2:20:17.879 --> 2:20:20.440 to highlight and and this was about, you know, related 2:20:20.480 --> 2:20:22.600 to a post dox. So maybe maybe Tyler can kind 2:20:22.600 --> 2:20:27.080 of film the details UM about the the action we 2:20:27.200 --> 2:20:30.720 had for UM for the UH postox redence. I can't. 2:20:30.720 --> 2:20:34.320 I can't. I'm blanking on her name, but made may 2:20:34.360 --> 2:20:36.560 be able to talk about There's been so many post 2:20:36.680 --> 2:20:39.560 docs and actions. So this is a really horrible case 2:20:39.680 --> 2:20:42.640 where someone who you know had brought up that there 2:20:42.720 --> 2:20:47.000 was data UH ethics issues in their lab, which obviously, 2:20:47.080 --> 2:20:50.240 as any post soccer graduate student telling your boss that 2:20:50.280 --> 2:20:53.520 they're doing something wrong never goes well. UM, but this 2:20:53.680 --> 2:20:56.160 person was bringing up this issue. This person also was 2:20:56.520 --> 2:21:00.760 UM was pregnant and UM at that point the person, 2:21:00.879 --> 2:21:03.240 once they found out that this person was pregnant, UM 2:21:03.280 --> 2:21:05.960 had decided, oh, well, you need to leave by the 2:21:06.080 --> 2:21:09.280 end of the year, UM, which would make the make 2:21:09.360 --> 2:21:11.240 it to where the person would get deported. Because this 2:21:11.320 --> 2:21:15.480 was an international scholar UM in their third trime. Master UM, 2:21:15.879 --> 2:21:19.760 you know, in in January, and so it was too 2:21:19.840 --> 2:21:23.640 more insurance during her third trimester. Yeah, and so Alex, 2:21:23.720 --> 2:21:25.240 if if you have a good memory of the action, 2:21:25.280 --> 2:21:28.120 I'll let you speak about it, because it was pretty awesome. Yeah, 2:21:28.200 --> 2:21:29.959 it was pretty great. We got a ton of people 2:21:30.040 --> 2:21:34.840 to rally in the health sciences area of campus. UM 2:21:35.040 --> 2:21:38.720 people essentially set up little mini pickets of the relevant 2:21:38.760 --> 2:21:42.240 buildings UM basically not blocking the insurance, but making sure 2:21:42.280 --> 2:21:44.960 everyone went in new exactly you know why we were 2:21:45.000 --> 2:21:47.600 there and what the issue was. And they were eventually 2:21:47.840 --> 2:21:49.440 towards the end of the day. I was I wasn't 2:21:49.440 --> 2:21:51.800 there at that point, but they were able to actually 2:21:51.879 --> 2:21:56.680 get up to UM where UM the chair of her 2:21:56.720 --> 2:22:00.280 department's office in lab were UM and I there nothing 2:22:00.320 --> 2:22:01.800 threatening that went on, but I do believe the cops 2:22:01.840 --> 2:22:06.800 were called nonetheless UM and and my understanding was this 2:22:06.959 --> 2:22:09.000 is just rumor. But he told someone that he really 2:22:09.040 --> 2:22:10.840 needed them to leave because he had to get to 2:22:10.879 --> 2:22:13.720 the bathroom and didn't want to talk to the students. 2:22:13.840 --> 2:22:16.920 So that was funny part of the story. UM. But 2:22:17.000 --> 2:22:19.960 they did get him on video because they eventually were 2:22:20.000 --> 2:22:21.880 able to talk to the chair of the department and 2:22:22.320 --> 2:22:25.360 got him on video saying I think this person deserves 2:22:25.400 --> 2:22:27.680 an extension of their contract. And that day or two 2:22:27.760 --> 2:22:32.280 later UCSD did actually award this post doc um and 2:22:32.400 --> 2:22:35.360 extension of her contract. But yeah, that this is an 2:22:35.400 --> 2:22:37.840 incident that you never would have seen the light of day, 2:22:38.240 --> 2:22:41.640 um unless this had been raised. Uh, unless we hadn't 2:22:41.640 --> 2:22:44.640 already had this kind of activists kind of consciousness going 2:22:44.680 --> 2:22:46.720 on because of the ongoing bargaining, and the union was 2:22:46.760 --> 2:22:49.360 able to post union was able to win kind of 2:22:49.520 --> 2:22:51.960 I think out of a really terrible situation, I think 2:22:51.959 --> 2:22:54.760 salvage probably one of the best outcome. She'll be able 2:22:54.840 --> 2:22:57.480 to have her child here um and look for new 2:22:57.560 --> 2:23:00.600 jobs in the meantime to um, you know whatever her 2:23:00.600 --> 2:23:02.880 family wants to do extended visa or or go back 2:23:03.520 --> 2:23:07.600 to their original country. But they essentially they have security, uh, 2:23:07.720 --> 2:23:10.959 some measure of security now, um, which wouldn't have happened 2:23:10.959 --> 2:23:16.040 about uh raising uh quite a disruption over it. And 2:23:16.200 --> 2:23:17.760 I also want to say that this was a post 2:23:17.840 --> 2:23:20.480 doc and the grad students came out to protect a 2:23:20.640 --> 2:23:23.840 post doc. So all these invisible lines at the university 2:23:23.920 --> 2:23:26.080 draws like obviously there were post docs there too. But 2:23:26.560 --> 2:23:29.000 if you think about the number of graduate students, like 2:23:29.560 --> 2:23:31.360 they are the immune system that has come out and 2:23:31.480 --> 2:23:34.160 saved a bunch of post docs through these actions. There 2:23:34.240 --> 2:23:36.840 was another action with someone that was being let go 2:23:37.000 --> 2:23:40.520 within four months of their employment, um in an inappropriate way. 2:23:40.640 --> 2:23:42.600 This person was kind of using their lab as that 2:23:42.800 --> 2:23:46.160 research mill I talked about only really hired women post 2:23:46.200 --> 2:23:49.240 docs and really did not treat them well, um despite 2:23:49.280 --> 2:23:53.600 doing research in women's health. And um, the grad students 2:23:53.640 --> 2:23:56.360 also came out for that, and we got to save 2:23:56.440 --> 2:24:01.680 that person from getting immediately fired and they're better off. Man. Hell, yeah, yeah, 2:24:01.840 --> 2:24:04.320 it's great. I think that sort of diarity is super important, 2:24:04.800 --> 2:24:07.920 and yeah, is the only thing that stops university from 2:24:07.959 --> 2:24:11.040 just rapidly exploiting everyone apart from like a hundred and 2:24:11.080 --> 2:24:14.320 fifty people at the very top. Actually, on that note, 2:24:14.400 --> 2:24:17.840 can I ask have you been working with like I guess, 2:24:19.040 --> 2:24:21.840 what's the tactical name for them, like the like the 2:24:22.840 --> 2:24:27.000 like the the other non student unions on campus. Oh 2:24:27.040 --> 2:24:32.160 it's like a f tis yeah yeah, like yeah, yeah yeah. 2:24:32.360 --> 2:24:36.240 They Unfortunately most of the unions don't have sympathy strike 2:24:36.440 --> 2:24:40.040 or uh those sorts of things. In their contract if 2:24:40.120 --> 2:24:43.240 if they cannot do an official strike if they are 2:24:43.720 --> 2:24:47.160 under contract. But yeah, they've definitely been helping in terms 2:24:47.200 --> 2:24:50.160 of kind of raising consciousness and awareness. I know, the 2:24:50.280 --> 2:24:54.199 ones that have the ability to, um, you know, maybe 2:24:54.640 --> 2:24:57.199 cancel their classes or use class time to teach about 2:24:57.240 --> 2:24:59.560 the strike or you know, do things like that. UM 2:25:00.040 --> 2:25:03.800 have been um uh there there that they're planning to 2:25:03.879 --> 2:25:06.520 do that. UM. What's nice as well is that this 2:25:06.600 --> 2:25:08.960 isn't really a union, but there's kind of a non 2:25:09.240 --> 2:25:13.720 university affiliated sort of group of faculty who you know, 2:25:13.840 --> 2:25:17.040 advocate for for for changes across the entire campus, and 2:25:17.080 --> 2:25:19.720 they're organizing a very large petition and letter writing campaign 2:25:19.920 --> 2:25:23.440 from faculty members supporting our action, which I think is 2:25:23.600 --> 2:25:27.040 is really critical because the university won't listen to us, 2:25:27.120 --> 2:25:30.160 but they may listen to if you get to a 2:25:30.240 --> 2:25:34.680 critical massive of professors supporting what we're doing. UM. So 2:25:34.920 --> 2:25:37.640 there's been uh, you know, not universal certainly, but but 2:25:37.760 --> 2:25:40.440 there's been a great deal of solidarity, even coming from 2:25:41.400 --> 2:25:43.200 some of the people who who the university I think 2:25:43.200 --> 2:25:45.440 has relied on to be more on their side, which 2:25:45.520 --> 2:25:51.640 is the professors, like the Faculty Association. I think that's 2:25:51.680 --> 2:25:54.440 pretty awesome because you can imagine that you see doesn't 2:25:54.440 --> 2:25:58.400 want them to ever unionize, but they obviously see the 2:25:58.480 --> 2:26:01.240 leaky pipeline where grass students or you know, either not 2:26:01.360 --> 2:26:04.600 staying in their programs or post talks aren't coming. And 2:26:04.800 --> 2:26:06.040 you just you know, what you happen to have at 2:26:06.040 --> 2:26:07.760 the end of that is people that have generational wealth 2:26:08.240 --> 2:26:10.440 um at the end of it, who happened to stay 2:26:10.480 --> 2:26:12.800 in these programs. And I think that's what really motive 2:26:12.800 --> 2:26:14.560 the facony to come out and say something because like 2:26:14.840 --> 2:26:18.440 you see says, oh, we support equity university, but then 2:26:18.480 --> 2:26:21.120 they have seen constantly the university not do anything materially 2:26:21.160 --> 2:26:26.600 to change that. Yeah, yeah, it's good. It's good to 2:26:26.640 --> 2:26:29.920 see the fact that he's shooting up UM. And again 2:26:29.959 --> 2:26:33.240 that's it's sort of that's that's how we fix these things, right, 2:26:33.440 --> 2:26:35.959 is by staking together with sort of dearity, with organizing. 2:26:36.320 --> 2:26:38.960 So maybe to finish up, if we talk about what 2:26:39.080 --> 2:26:42.360 next week is going to look like, what next week 2:26:42.480 --> 2:26:44.480 might look like I guess or I guess it'll it'll 2:26:44.480 --> 2:26:47.160 be this week by the time this comes out, Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, 2:26:47.200 --> 2:26:48.760 So what can people look for and the on the 2:26:48.840 --> 2:26:53.520 timeline from U c s D from the university or 2:26:53.600 --> 2:26:57.000 from from from from the from the strike. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, Well, 2:26:57.000 --> 2:27:02.680 we'll have a number of pickets throughout campus, UM mostly 2:27:02.760 --> 2:27:04.920 kind of trying to keep them geographically oriented, so everyone 2:27:04.959 --> 2:27:06.640 from the surrounding buildings just go to you know, one 2:27:06.760 --> 2:27:09.200 one specific spot. We've we're doing you know, sign ups, 2:27:09.320 --> 2:27:12.120 organizing strike pay, all those sorts of typical things have 2:27:12.240 --> 2:27:16.080 been going on this week, UM, and the walkout begins 2:27:16.160 --> 2:27:20.560 November for across you know, not just UCSD but all 2:27:20.640 --> 2:27:25.520 the campuses. So that's our total um UM bargaining unit 2:27:25.560 --> 2:27:28.800 membership across the three unions is for people of those 2:27:29.920 --> 2:27:33.120 voted on our strikeout vote voted yes. So we're expecting 2:27:33.560 --> 2:27:36.400 a pretty significant turnout of that entire membership to be 2:27:36.440 --> 2:27:40.320 on the picket line. UM. So that will there will 2:27:40.400 --> 2:27:42.480 be UM, you know, those t as who are walking 2:27:42.520 --> 2:27:44.199 out will be that that will be the first disruption 2:27:44.320 --> 2:27:46.959 university feels before they feel a research disruption. They will 2:27:47.040 --> 2:27:49.720 very clearly see the teaching disruption and exams not taking place, 2:27:49.760 --> 2:27:53.520 grades not being entered, UH, sections not being taught across 2:27:53.560 --> 2:27:57.920 every single campus and UM and that will certainly be 2:27:58.800 --> 2:28:03.960 UM something that they will UM have to deal with 2:28:04.120 --> 2:28:07.160 the end and hopefully the size of the disruption in 2:28:07.200 --> 2:28:10.440 the first few days will convince them to come to 2:28:10.560 --> 2:28:15.040 the bargaining table in a reasonable way UM, and if not, 2:28:15.200 --> 2:28:21.240 we are prepared to continue until they do. And the 2:28:21.320 --> 2:28:24.000 other interesting part about what's gonna happen next week is 2:28:24.040 --> 2:28:27.200 that this is UM a picket line that is going 2:28:27.280 --> 2:28:31.000 to be not just including you know, researchers and instructors, 2:28:31.080 --> 2:28:33.120 but also people that support us. So there's a big 2:28:33.160 --> 2:28:36.840 conference downtown for a lot of neuroscientists and UM it's 2:28:37.040 --> 2:28:39.920 it's called sf N I can't remember what that stands for, UM, 2:28:40.080 --> 2:28:41.520 but a lot of them are actually coming to the 2:28:41.560 --> 2:28:45.760 picket line to support us. I didn't know about that. 2:28:45.959 --> 2:28:49.320 That's great, Yeah, yeah, it's I think that's pretty exciting. 2:28:49.320 --> 2:28:51.200 I didn't know it was in San Diego, but UM, 2:28:51.360 --> 2:28:53.400 they're gonna be here, and also, you know, vouch for 2:28:53.520 --> 2:28:56.199 us because you see does like we are the leading 2:28:56.240 --> 2:28:58.480 research group and we contribute to a lot of the 2:28:58.520 --> 2:29:01.880 research that are at these meetings. Anyway. UM, there's also 2:29:01.920 --> 2:29:04.400 going to be it's a child friendly picket line and 2:29:04.560 --> 2:29:07.000 for people with access needs, we're gonna have UM, you know, 2:29:07.200 --> 2:29:10.240 virtual picketing and you'll see what that looks like. Um, 2:29:10.640 --> 2:29:13.160 it's still being developed, but I think that's pretty exciting. 2:29:13.200 --> 2:29:15.800 As someone, you know, with a disability to myself, it's 2:29:15.840 --> 2:29:19.720 exciting that other people can contribute to that. Yeah, it's 2:29:19.800 --> 2:29:22.280 very cool to you guys to do that. It's very cool. 2:29:22.840 --> 2:29:24.920 How can people help? How can we support you? How 2:29:25.000 --> 2:29:28.480 can people find you? On the internet? Yeah, So, I 2:29:28.520 --> 2:29:30.360 think if you want to keep up with the strike news, 2:29:30.480 --> 2:29:32.960 there's three Twitter accounts, the s r U U a 2:29:33.200 --> 2:29:36.280 w u W and you a W two week six five. 2:29:36.480 --> 2:29:38.360 I think they kind of share a lot of sim 2:29:38.440 --> 2:29:40.760 content sometimes because we're all kind of doing this together. 2:29:40.879 --> 2:29:43.959 But that's a good place to keep track of the news. 2:29:44.440 --> 2:29:47.440 I know there is a link to UM. There's a 2:29:47.560 --> 2:29:50.760 they've set up a Hardship strike fund UM. I don't 2:29:50.800 --> 2:29:53.520 have that link off top of my head, but if 2:29:53.600 --> 2:29:57.600 you yeah to us later and if you go to 2:29:58.240 --> 2:30:00.400 fair you see now dot org it have all the 2:30:00.440 --> 2:30:02.959 information about what's happening, but also those type of links 2:30:03.000 --> 2:30:05.960 to UM. So if you want some contact, so it's 2:30:05.959 --> 2:30:10.520 pretty good. Yeah, and then how about YouTube personally? Would 2:30:10.560 --> 2:30:12.400 you like to share your personal Twitter so or do 2:30:12.400 --> 2:30:17.160 you just want to stick with the the organizational once. Um, 2:30:18.040 --> 2:30:19.879 I would love to. I promise, I'm not that fun, 2:30:19.959 --> 2:30:25.240 but minus Tyler Bell PhD. That's my dad. Yeah, and 2:30:25.360 --> 2:30:28.640 I'm Alex t Winzel on Twitter. I once this is over, 2:30:28.720 --> 2:30:30.720 I'll probably go back to tweeting entirely about my work 2:30:30.800 --> 2:30:35.960 and pictures of busses. Your Twitter, Alex, Yeah, is a 2:30:36.040 --> 2:30:40.320 high value follow. Thank you. Alex gives live updates about 2:30:40.360 --> 2:30:43.959 transit and it's exciting. You see a train, It's all good. 2:30:45.800 --> 2:30:48.160 It pretty like hits at like five year old child. 2:30:48.640 --> 2:30:50.520 We have pretty much of busses in San Diego. Now 2:30:50.600 --> 2:30:53.640 what can I say here? Yeah? All right, all right, 2:30:53.760 --> 2:30:55.200 thank you so much of your time, both of you. 2:30:55.440 --> 2:30:57.560 I really appreciate it. Best to luck next week. Maybe 2:30:57.560 --> 2:30:59.800 I'll come up and bring you, i know, sim super 2:31:00.080 --> 2:31:02.800 like like an oil can that we can start firing 2:31:02.840 --> 2:31:07.720 on campus or something. Yeah, let's do it. Have one here, 2:31:07.800 --> 2:31:11.160 let's do it. I'm down, all right, Yeah, best of 2:31:11.240 --> 2:31:14.680 black and we'll look forward to hearing what happens. Thank 2:31:14.720 --> 2:31:17.880 you so much for thanks so much for talking to us. Hello, 2:31:18.040 --> 2:31:20.640 podcast fans. I know you got to the end of 2:31:20.640 --> 2:31:23.120 the episode and you were thinking not enough James. Not 2:31:23.240 --> 2:31:27.560 enough strikes, not enough UCSD. So lucky you. I've been 2:31:27.640 --> 2:31:30.200 up to since you see San Diego today, and I've 2:31:30.240 --> 2:31:34.440 recorded with Tyler and Alex at the strike and we 2:31:34.560 --> 2:31:36.720 got some audio of the strike going on as well. 2:31:37.240 --> 2:31:39.560 It was really amazing, really incredible to see that many 2:31:39.560 --> 2:31:42.520 people out Never thought I see that UCSD. So without 2:31:42.560 --> 2:31:45.040 further Ado here his main view with them all right, 2:31:45.840 --> 2:31:48.480 So here with dying Alex again this time with more 2:31:48.520 --> 2:31:53.520 background noise. We're at the strike now. How many people 2:31:53.520 --> 2:31:57.160 are here? Roughly oh man somewhere, probably around at least 2:31:57.160 --> 2:32:00.240 a couple of thousand right right now. Definitely a couple 2:32:00.280 --> 2:32:03.040 of thousand people out here. It's really impressive. Like I 2:32:03.440 --> 2:32:05.040 read do U C s D if you haven't picked 2:32:05.080 --> 2:32:06.480 that up yet, And like we did not get too 2:32:06.560 --> 2:32:09.600 many people even when like people started hanging new seas 2:32:09.640 --> 2:32:12.960 around campus. I didn't. I didn't think I'm being so 2:32:13.040 --> 2:32:16.240 I did again. This is genuinely very impressive. And what's 2:32:16.280 --> 2:32:18.840 been what's been happening? UM? I think things have gone 2:32:19.120 --> 2:32:21.000 really well so far this since day two as we're 2:32:21.000 --> 2:32:24.280 recording this, that we've been on strike. UM, there has 2:32:24.360 --> 2:32:26.920 been some progress at the bargaining table that I've heard, um, 2:32:27.040 --> 2:32:29.040 but we do know that you see is going to 2:32:29.080 --> 2:32:30.720 try to drag this out. They think that they can 2:32:30.760 --> 2:32:33.280 outlast our momentum. But so far as you can really 2:32:33.280 --> 2:32:34.720 hear from the noise behind us and see all the 2:32:34.800 --> 2:32:38.080 different you know, uh, thousands of people converging from all 2:32:38.080 --> 2:32:40.160 the pict locations across campus that they've been at since 2:32:40.200 --> 2:32:42.400 eight in the morning, I think our energy is going strong. 2:32:42.400 --> 2:32:44.840 Where do you think, Tyler? Yeah, so I think the 2:32:44.920 --> 2:32:47.520 energy is really strong here today. Uh. The UC did 2:32:47.600 --> 2:32:49.720 not expect us to come on day two, which we 2:32:49.800 --> 2:32:52.879 know because at bargaining they canceled our meetings for today, um, 2:32:52.879 --> 2:32:56.039 because they didn't expect to show up. But somehow magically 2:32:56.120 --> 2:32:59.360 a meeting immerged around two o'clock today, and it maybe 2:32:59.760 --> 2:33:01.520 do to the fact that two thousand people are out here. 2:33:01.600 --> 2:33:04.720 Pretty piste, uh and one a fair contract. But yeah, 2:33:04.720 --> 2:33:07.120 I think the momentum it's pretty high. We actually did 2:33:07.160 --> 2:33:10.320 more disruption today, going directly talking to the deans and 2:33:10.360 --> 2:33:12.600 the faculty and screaming in their offices as they sat 2:33:12.640 --> 2:33:15.360 really comfy. But I'll say, yeah, first floor seminars didn't 2:33:15.360 --> 2:33:18.440 go well today. I'll put it that way, all right, 2:33:19.160 --> 2:33:21.280 there was something that I know the university about like 2:33:21.360 --> 2:33:27.280 intimidation and un friend lavorite practices, and you come too, Yeah, 2:33:27.360 --> 2:33:31.000 I can talk to generalities. UM there's uh well, the 2:33:31.080 --> 2:33:33.000 labor law that governs us is is is a little 2:33:33.000 --> 2:33:37.000 bit complicated because some of us also receive uh course 2:33:37.080 --> 2:33:39.439 credit for the work that we do that is protected 2:33:39.560 --> 2:33:42.680 under activity that protects our strike activity, which is a 2:33:42.760 --> 2:33:44.959 little bit of an anti labor practice in and of itself. 2:33:45.080 --> 2:33:46.600 There's no reason I have to sign up for twelve 2:33:46.680 --> 2:33:49.160 credits of just existing doing work. That doesn't make any 2:33:49.200 --> 2:33:52.600 particular sense, but it's the way the inversity run things. So, UM, 2:33:52.680 --> 2:33:54.520 there has been some emails that are sent out that 2:33:54.600 --> 2:33:58.880 are are questionable legal correctness as to whether um we 2:33:59.000 --> 2:34:01.040 can be hurt in terms of our academic standing for 2:34:01.160 --> 2:34:04.000 participating on the strike. That is definitely not true, UM 2:34:04.280 --> 2:34:07.160 is if we are if the is activity that's governed 2:34:07.280 --> 2:34:10.280 under the what our union is representing us for UM. 2:34:10.320 --> 2:34:12.000 So we know we've had some issues with that. Tyler, 2:34:12.040 --> 2:34:14.119 I guess you could talk about maybe some other examples 2:34:14.160 --> 2:34:17.640 that have come out. It's on the postox side. Right now, 2:34:17.760 --> 2:34:20.360 the university has released like an f a Q of 2:34:20.480 --> 2:34:23.360 sorts in an email where it says, oh, well, you'll 2:34:23.360 --> 2:34:26.040 have to tell the niage that your postox aren't doing 2:34:26.120 --> 2:34:28.039 research and that they are funding needs to get pulled. 2:34:28.360 --> 2:34:30.240 But that's kind of a joke. There's no like reporting 2:34:30.280 --> 2:34:33.000 mechanism for that. It's more like a stipend for a 2:34:33.080 --> 2:34:36.120 living um. So we're telling people just to stay strong 2:34:36.320 --> 2:34:38.800 and uh, people see you kind of pass like the 2:34:38.879 --> 2:34:40.920 threats that they're making, and a lot of faculty see 2:34:40.920 --> 2:34:43.959 through it too. Okay, we just intercepted you. When you're 2:34:43.959 --> 2:34:47.160 going somewhere else, you would you like to introduce yourself? 2:34:47.400 --> 2:34:51.000 All right? So them post doc um, I'm pretty new 2:34:51.720 --> 2:34:53.800 in your c s C. I joined in April, and 2:34:53.920 --> 2:34:56.920 I came here having already done another post doc and 2:34:57.000 --> 2:34:59.760 a PhD in Europe. I joined the union on this 2:35:00.000 --> 2:35:06.279 instantly when I came here, since i've I was basically horrified, 2:35:06.879 --> 2:35:08.480 for lack of a better way to put it, so, 2:35:08.600 --> 2:35:11.600 I studied in the EU for ten years and my 2:35:11.760 --> 2:35:15.080 experience of academia is what I experienced there, which was 2:35:16.840 --> 2:35:20.760 decent working conditions, being able to save money, not having 2:35:20.800 --> 2:35:23.080 to spend fifty of your salary on ransom. When I 2:35:23.120 --> 2:35:28.240 came here, and experienced post stock life. I couldn't believe it. 2:35:28.400 --> 2:35:30.120 So I believe. I met Tyler when I came here 2:35:30.160 --> 2:35:32.600 for the first time and we did this orientation that 2:35:32.840 --> 2:35:37.400 was awesome and awesome horrifying at the same time. Sorry, 2:35:37.640 --> 2:35:40.200 it was awesome to meet you because I realized it 2:35:40.360 --> 2:35:42.320 was then that I learned how a labor union worked. 2:35:42.560 --> 2:35:45.480 My knowledge of labor unions was minimal up until the 2:35:45.480 --> 2:35:47.640 point that I moved here, so minimal that I didn't 2:35:47.640 --> 2:35:50.120 even know what labor unions in the EU functioned like 2:35:50.400 --> 2:35:52.640 until I came here and realized, Oh my god, we 2:35:52.720 --> 2:35:55.440 are actually lucky to have a union that supports postdocs, 2:35:55.520 --> 2:35:57.720 and this is not the case in a lot of 2:35:57.760 --> 2:36:00.720 places in the US. Yeah, yeah, that's true. And so 2:36:00.840 --> 2:36:04.880 how has the strike action gone so far? Expect it's 2:36:04.879 --> 2:36:08.080 been crazy. We've been planning this for so long. It's 2:36:08.080 --> 2:36:10.680 a bit surreal to be part of it. I think 2:36:10.680 --> 2:36:14.600 it's been going great. It's been very energizing, and it's 2:36:14.640 --> 2:36:16.879 been intense. Yeah, it's hard, right, none of us really 2:36:16.920 --> 2:36:19.119 want to be out here and strike, and the fact 2:36:19.240 --> 2:36:22.680 that so many people are putting work on hold just 2:36:23.240 --> 2:36:26.400 speaks to the intensity and seriousness of the problem and 2:36:26.480 --> 2:36:29.360 what we're striking for. Ye yeah, yeah, I think that's 2:36:29.440 --> 2:36:31.280 very true. It's really impressive. How many people here I 2:36:31.320 --> 2:36:38.400 can't over Yeah some time. Yeah, very impressive. So let's see. Look, 2:36:38.560 --> 2:36:40.360 do you guys know how the bargaining has gone and 2:36:40.480 --> 2:36:44.360 what we can expect from here. Well, what we would 2:36:44.440 --> 2:36:46.280 like would be for the u SEE to meet us 2:36:46.360 --> 2:36:49.120 at the bargaining table and give us a fair contract. 2:36:49.600 --> 2:36:55.520 But um repeating that ad infinite um bobby with whole 2:36:55.640 --> 2:36:58.480 labors is the plan thus far. But what's actually been 2:36:58.560 --> 2:37:02.520 happening is um U SEE just hasn't been paying fair 2:37:02.959 --> 2:37:08.720 as you know. Yeah, it's it's been. It's been infuriating 2:37:08.800 --> 2:37:12.480 for me. It makes me very angry. It's very serree 2:37:12.480 --> 2:37:14.400 and especially I think if you're used to a sort 2:37:14.400 --> 2:37:18.200 of more sane labor context, to see them just make 2:37:18.240 --> 2:37:21.200 a gas lighting and righting and doing what I'm fraise 2:37:21.240 --> 2:37:25.959 for it is illegal stuff. It's disrespectful, is what I feel. Yeah, 2:37:26.920 --> 2:37:30.640 maybe illustrates sort of what they see post toxographs in 2:37:31.040 --> 2:37:35.720 economic gens. Yeah, as a workforce whose rights are not 2:37:35.879 --> 2:37:37.360 to be value to do a bulk of the work. 2:37:37.440 --> 2:37:40.360 It's it's very disrespectful, you know, I think it certainly 2:37:40.400 --> 2:37:43.280 speaks to uh. Like I said earlier, they're trying to 2:37:43.320 --> 2:37:45.440 outlast us, and they think that we will reach a 2:37:45.480 --> 2:37:47.320 certain point where we we no longer feel like we 2:37:47.440 --> 2:37:49.440 can avoid our work, that we can stay out here. 2:37:49.760 --> 2:37:52.560 And I think you would think that if that's their strategy, 2:37:52.680 --> 2:37:55.400 would realize that we are in a point of desperation, 2:37:55.480 --> 2:37:58.320 We are in a point of procarity, um, where we 2:37:58.520 --> 2:38:03.439 really need wages and compensation and and and workplace protections 2:38:03.520 --> 2:38:05.720 that meet the current economic situation that we live in, 2:38:05.760 --> 2:38:07.959 because right now that's not what we have, and currently 2:38:08.000 --> 2:38:09.760 at the bargaining table, they're kind of putting a lot 2:38:09.800 --> 2:38:12.200 of our labor reps and to like, uh, something that 2:38:12.200 --> 2:38:15.119 looks like like jaw like jig saw like type trap 2:38:15.240 --> 2:38:18.119 rooms where they have only for lesson hiding and no windows, 2:38:18.200 --> 2:38:20.240 and then them not knowing whether or not they have 2:38:20.360 --> 2:38:21.960 to get a flight back because they're not going to 2:38:22.040 --> 2:38:24.040 meet with them that day. UM, them saying that they 2:38:24.080 --> 2:38:25.880 haven't reserved rooms, even though that you know, they have 2:38:25.959 --> 2:38:28.400 so much power. Who's who's taking up a room from them? 2:38:28.879 --> 2:38:30.560 Um to meet with them and actually come up with 2:38:30.680 --> 2:38:33.960 some proposals. I got an update that admin wasn't bargaining 2:38:34.040 --> 2:38:36.880 because they couldn't reserve a room. What does that mean 2:38:36.959 --> 2:38:39.160 there's forty eight thousand people on strike, the entire system 2:38:39.200 --> 2:38:42.480 isn't working. We mean, it's your rooms also, you own 2:38:42.560 --> 2:38:45.320 the rooms. I'm I was, I bet that was a 2:38:45.400 --> 2:38:47.720 fascinating update. I'm sorry, I just had to mention something 2:38:47.760 --> 2:38:49.560 about that. So that's just all we have to know 2:38:49.720 --> 2:38:52.000 right now is that they keep canceling meetings adding meetings. 2:38:52.120 --> 2:38:53.560 They're kind of just waiting us out and see how 2:38:53.600 --> 2:38:55.200 long we'll actually be on strike and whether or not 2:38:55.720 --> 2:38:57.760 we actually care about our contracts, which I think you 2:38:57.879 --> 2:38:59.320 being here today, you see how many people are out 2:38:59.320 --> 2:39:00.879 and no one's going to lead EVE this picket line 2:39:01.160 --> 2:39:04.760 throughout the week. So yeah, yeah, I think that's basically it. 2:39:04.840 --> 2:39:06.320 People aren't going to leave the picket line, and the 2:39:06.440 --> 2:39:10.320 energy is awesome because people are fed up. People are 2:39:10.440 --> 2:39:13.000 fed up, people are fed up being poor and homeless, 2:39:13.040 --> 2:39:15.200 and this is not why we come to grad school, right. 2:39:15.280 --> 2:39:17.760 I mean, I was very fortunate to have a good 2:39:17.760 --> 2:39:19.879 grad school experience and that's why I'm still in academia. 2:39:19.920 --> 2:39:21.760 But the majority of the people who come to the 2:39:21.840 --> 2:39:25.720 university spending savings. I know people with student loans back 2:39:25.760 --> 2:39:28.360 from India who are here to do a master's and 2:39:29.040 --> 2:39:33.120 are teeing doing research, killing themselves because they had a dream. 2:39:33.400 --> 2:39:37.240 They literally moved across the world to come here following 2:39:37.280 --> 2:39:39.280 a dream and our ending up being broken. That's that's 2:39:39.320 --> 2:39:42.240 heartbreaking from a university as big as this. Nobody deserves 2:39:43.480 --> 2:39:46.360 to be treated this way, and I think everybody here 2:39:46.520 --> 2:39:48.960 is feeling it. If you go to fair you see 2:39:49.040 --> 2:39:51.760 now dot org there's a link to a strike fund 2:39:51.840 --> 2:39:54.080 right now, a hardship fund, and people can donate to 2:39:54.160 --> 2:39:57.280 that any amount they want to. And there's also we're 2:39:57.320 --> 2:40:00.360 taking donations to actually feed people out here. So people 2:40:00.360 --> 2:40:02.520 have questions about that, they can just email the links 2:40:02.600 --> 2:40:07.560 at that website. UM. Yeah, can people to like would 2:40:07.560 --> 2:40:10.160 you like? People? People are very very welcome to show 2:40:10.200 --> 2:40:12.400 up to the picket line to come help. All help 2:40:12.520 --> 2:40:15.000 is appreciated. You want to join us, you want to chant, 2:40:15.080 --> 2:40:17.320 you want to bring supplies, we'll be there. This is 2:40:17.360 --> 2:40:20.400 across all ten you see campuses, if you're near the 2:40:20.440 --> 2:40:22.840 picket line, if you want to show support and solidarity, 2:40:22.959 --> 2:40:25.920 come join us. Yeah, the virtual picketing is still happening, 2:40:26.000 --> 2:40:27.959 and what they've been actually doing is making sure people 2:40:28.040 --> 2:40:30.440 get here and nowhere to go, since the picketing is 2:40:30.520 --> 2:40:33.440 so transient, like we're literally moving building to building as 2:40:33.520 --> 2:40:36.040 it's needed, and they're doing the calls for us and 2:40:36.280 --> 2:40:38.760 directing us, so which is a wild thing. But also 2:40:38.959 --> 2:40:41.520 the other thing is just people retweeting everything that we post, 2:40:41.920 --> 2:40:43.920 making sure that no one can silence us, because that's 2:40:43.959 --> 2:40:45.800 what you see. Once. Thank you so much for coming, 2:40:45.879 --> 2:40:48.440 Thanks for giving us this platform. The awareness is really 2:40:48.480 --> 2:40:50.160 critical to make sure that you see can't ignore us. 2:40:50.240 --> 2:41:07.680 So thank you so much for coming. It's the podcast, 2:41:07.879 --> 2:41:10.160 it's it could happen here. It is about something that 2:41:10.240 --> 2:41:15.959 could happen here very specifically. Um, yeah, I'm I'm Christopher Wong. 2:41:16.360 --> 2:41:19.200 I'm here with James Stout and Garrison Davis. Hello, Hello, 2:41:19.280 --> 2:41:22.600 do you both hello? We all joined the SIMP call 2:41:22.800 --> 2:41:25.480 that that did happen here, and that did show everybody 2:41:25.640 --> 2:41:27.840 all right, Okay, so that's the thing that that did 2:41:27.920 --> 2:41:29.320 happen here, and now we're gonna talk abou something that 2:41:29.400 --> 2:41:34.640 could happen here, and that specific thing is uh a 2:41:34.760 --> 2:41:37.720 call by two Harvard academics to hire five hundred thousand 2:41:37.879 --> 2:41:43.280 more cops. Nope, so okay, they're like, I don't I 2:41:43.280 --> 2:41:44.800 don't know when this is going to go up. But 2:41:45.600 --> 2:41:48.040 sometime in the past that there was a piece that 2:41:48.080 --> 2:41:50.920 went viral by civil rights lawyer and anti prison activist 2:41:50.959 --> 2:41:53.920 turned media critic Alec karaka Tanis about a pair of 2:41:53.920 --> 2:41:56.600 Harvard academics who wrote this article calling for five thousand 2:41:56.640 --> 2:42:00.520 more cops. And this is okay, Like the fact that 2:42:00.600 --> 2:42:03.440 we have academics writing position papers basically that are calling 2:42:03.480 --> 2:42:06.560 for five thousand more cops is terrifying in and of itself. 2:42:07.200 --> 2:42:12.120 But but but crime is that a record high You're 2:42:12.240 --> 2:42:15.840 about to see ship. You're about to see You're about 2:42:15.879 --> 2:42:17.400 to see and hear ship that is going to make 2:42:17.480 --> 2:42:20.920 your fucking ears bleed because it's not ship. Like okay, 2:42:21.000 --> 2:42:24.080 normally these are Harvard academics, right, So you're assuming these 2:42:24.080 --> 2:42:26.120 are like right wing nats at Google's right or like 2:42:26.160 --> 2:42:28.960 their equivalent in in in the sort of like you 2:42:29.040 --> 2:42:32.760 know these are not. This was written by a socialist. 2:42:33.440 --> 2:42:36.200 And when I say a socialist right like, I don't 2:42:36.240 --> 2:42:37.520 mean a sort of like one of the sort of 2:42:37.640 --> 2:42:41.160 like terminally online desperate cranks trying to hold together like 2:42:41.200 --> 2:42:44.160 a maoist micro sect. I'm talking about people who are 2:42:44.320 --> 2:42:48.720 incredibly well connected inside the mainstream socialist left. So the 2:42:48.959 --> 2:42:51.800 authors of this call for five hundred thousand more cops 2:42:52.200 --> 2:42:54.960 are Christopher Lewis, who is a Harvard law professor who 2:42:55.000 --> 2:42:58.920 makes me embarrassed to have my own name, and more 2:42:59.040 --> 2:43:03.320 interestingly of a sociology professor, auditor usumy So who is 2:43:03.360 --> 2:43:07.040 auditor Usumi um. He is on the board. He's on 2:43:07.080 --> 2:43:11.199 the editorial board of Catalyst, which is a Marxist man. Okay, 2:43:11.240 --> 2:43:14.000 do you do you have you two know what Catalyst is? Yeah, 2:43:15.480 --> 2:43:18.840 besides the sequel to the Mirror original game and l 2:43:18.879 --> 2:43:22.680 I don't. Yeah, okay, so they're they're a a Marxist magazine. 2:43:22.680 --> 2:43:25.080 There supposed to be a more sort of theoretical Marxist 2:43:25.320 --> 2:43:28.080 like magazine founded by a guy named vi Vic Chibber, 2:43:28.200 --> 2:43:31.320 who's a pretty influential, sort of like soaked Marxist who 2:43:31.360 --> 2:43:34.240 could be found literally in any any of the last 2:43:34.320 --> 2:43:36.760 like five decades, you can find him yelling about the 2:43:36.840 --> 2:43:39.680 cultural turn in academia and calling for a return of 2:43:39.760 --> 2:43:49.800 political economy. Yes, yes, about this for decades longer. I 2:43:49.879 --> 2:43:51.680 think he's been yelling about this for longer than I've 2:43:51.720 --> 2:43:56.000 been alive. God, Like, that's how long has been going on. 2:43:56.480 --> 2:43:59.600 People have definitely been like fetching about the cultural turn 2:43:59.680 --> 2:44:02.039 for long than any of us have been alive. Yeah, 2:44:02.200 --> 2:44:06.520 and they've been wrong for that entire time. And him 2:44:06.720 --> 2:44:08.600 is like one of the guys who trained us to 2:44:08.680 --> 2:44:12.080 me in the first place. Now catalysts other major founder 2:44:12.720 --> 2:44:15.680 um is much more famous, and that's someone you probably 2:44:15.760 --> 2:44:20.400 have heard of, who is one bosh Car Sunkara, who 2:44:20.600 --> 2:44:23.000 is the current President of the Nation and also the 2:44:23.040 --> 2:44:26.360 founder of jocobin where and this is where it gets 2:44:26.400 --> 2:44:30.360 fun us to me also on the editorial board of Jocobin. 2:44:31.640 --> 2:44:34.360 This is the guy caring for five hundred that was 2:44:34.400 --> 2:44:37.199 in More Cops. Right. This isn't coming from the usable 2:44:37.240 --> 2:44:39.959 sort of like rabid reactionaries. This is coming from people 2:44:39.959 --> 2:44:45.040 who have serious credentials in the mainstream socialists left and Okay, 2:44:45.360 --> 2:44:49.320 so all right, I want to talk about what's actually 2:44:49.400 --> 2:44:52.840 in the paper. And the first thing I need everyone 2:44:52.879 --> 2:44:54.760 to understand about this from the get go is that 2:44:54.879 --> 2:44:57.360 this is maybe the worst paper I've ever read. Like 2:44:57.800 --> 2:45:00.080 if I had tried to turn this paper in to 2:45:00.240 --> 2:45:04.160 my like freshman under like into like an undergrad class, 2:45:04.240 --> 2:45:06.680 I would have failed, Like when when when I was 2:45:06.760 --> 2:45:08.520 in my freshman year in college, I had to read 2:45:08.560 --> 2:45:12.160 Biblical analysis written by a freshman Ted Cruise supporter who 2:45:12.280 --> 2:45:14.320 was arguing that there was a problem in the Bible 2:45:14.400 --> 2:45:16.640 where there was no way for God to talk to people. 2:45:18.000 --> 2:45:22.480 This is worse than that and the Koran. It's like, 2:45:23.200 --> 2:45:26.800 how is how how is that worth? Chris? Okay, so 2:45:27.280 --> 2:45:30.080 let's let's let's just start off right. I'm gonna I'm 2:45:30.080 --> 2:45:32.199 gonna start off with a random part in the middle, 2:45:32.280 --> 2:45:37.240 so you understand how just mind numbingly atrocious this is okay, 2:45:37.280 --> 2:45:38.920 So I'm gonna I'm gonna read this. This is an 2:45:39.000 --> 2:45:41.600 article called, and I'm not kidding about the title of 2:45:41.680 --> 2:45:48.160 this quote, the Injustice of under policing in America. Uh yeah, 2:45:48.560 --> 2:45:56.160 so we're starting we're turning off right, so yeah, so 2:45:56.240 --> 2:45:59.480 so so before we get into the actual main argument, 2:45:59.520 --> 2:46:03.960 I'm just gonna read this quote, which is right. Even 2:46:04.040 --> 2:46:07.400 if our answers prove unsound, we hope that the combination 2:46:07.480 --> 2:46:12.040 of empirical social science and analytic moral and political philosophy 2:46:12.160 --> 2:46:15.879 we can we contribute can help eliminate what alternative answers 2:46:15.879 --> 2:46:19.320 to those questions might have to look like. To be sound, which, 2:46:19.480 --> 2:46:24.320 first off, terrible scism. This is why I would prefer 2:46:24.400 --> 2:46:27.000 the immortal science of markis Latinism. This is awful, like said, 2:46:27.879 --> 2:46:30.119 is writing terrible? Said it back to an editor, give 2:46:30.160 --> 2:46:32.400 them a decade, they'll come back with it. Second off, 2:46:32.840 --> 2:46:38.240 I literally cannot imagine two disciplines I would like rather 2:46:38.440 --> 2:46:41.640 less apply to the problem of mass incarceration than those 2:46:42.360 --> 2:46:45.280 like these authors have dared ask the question, what if 2:46:45.320 --> 2:46:49.000 we combined the bone rattling stupidity of analytic philosophy with 2:46:49.080 --> 2:46:52.520 the sociologist complete inability to do statistics? And the answer 2:46:52.760 --> 2:46:56.680 is this? And what I say, complete inability to do statistics? Right, 2:46:56.680 --> 2:47:00.480 I need people to understand how bad this article is, 2:47:00.959 --> 2:47:04.520 right like I I like, I like viscerally needs you 2:47:04.680 --> 2:47:08.440 to understand. So here, here is here, Here is a quote. 2:47:09.000 --> 2:47:12.599 Here's another section of this article. But while firearm availability, 2:47:12.920 --> 2:47:15.520 no doubt has some impact on the level of violence, 2:47:15.680 --> 2:47:18.240 we think the effect is likely to be small. A 2:47:18.400 --> 2:47:21.080 large effect would be difficult to square with other patterns 2:47:21.120 --> 2:47:25.760 across place, persons, and time. Consider, for example, that while 2:47:25.800 --> 2:47:28.200 the United States has ten times as many guns as 2:47:28.240 --> 2:47:31.120 El Salvador, the homicide rate there is roughly ten times 2:47:31.200 --> 2:47:35.280 higher than it is here. Now stats, nowhere's think for 2:47:35.400 --> 2:47:39.520 a second about what they just compared. Right, The United 2:47:39.600 --> 2:47:44.280 States has ten times as many guns. The homicide rate 2:47:45.080 --> 2:47:49.959 in El Salvador as ten times higher. Right, Yeah, yeah, 2:47:49.959 --> 2:47:52.240 I think, Okay, what what does the US have more 2:47:52.320 --> 2:47:57.080 of than El Salvador? No, no, we have more guns, 2:47:57.120 --> 2:48:02.640 but we also have fifty times the population. The million 2:48:02.680 --> 2:48:05.480 people of Salvador is six point five million people, which 2:48:05.560 --> 2:48:07.840 means again if if you're looking at this in terms 2:48:07.879 --> 2:48:12.080 of guns per capita, right, A salpits guns per capita 2:48:12.160 --> 2:48:16.280 is actually five times higher than ours. Wow, that's quite impressive. Yeah, 2:48:16.680 --> 2:48:20.840 and financial perspective, because we have a little guns. Yeah. Right, 2:48:20.879 --> 2:48:25.160 and you know, okay, again, if you're if you're gonna 2:48:25.200 --> 2:48:29.640 do basic statistics, right, you would think that these professors 2:48:29.800 --> 2:48:33.400 at Harvard University would know the difference between a rate 2:48:33.520 --> 2:48:36.119 of gun ownership and the pure owner of ship of guns. 2:48:36.480 --> 2:48:39.880 They do not. They do not, do they not? Have 2:48:40.040 --> 2:48:43.920 they decided that they're going to pretend they don't. I don't. Okay, 2:48:44.080 --> 2:48:46.120 here's the thing going into this, right, I assume this 2:48:46.240 --> 2:48:47.880 was just sort of pure hackshit, and I think a 2:48:47.959 --> 2:48:50.600 lot of it is. I think they also are genuinely 2:48:50.720 --> 2:48:55.520 this dumb like genuine I I it's it's really incredible, 2:48:55.640 --> 2:48:58.680 like I mean again, like the thing like like, the 2:48:58.800 --> 2:49:02.360 thing they've actually demonstrate with their own numbers is precisely 2:49:02.360 --> 2:49:04.480 the opposite of what they're arguing. The thing they've demonstrated 2:49:04.720 --> 2:49:06.440 with the numbers they have given us is that there 2:49:06.480 --> 2:49:10.760 is a correlation between gun ownership rates and the homicide rate, right, 2:49:10.959 --> 2:49:14.360 Like they're trying to there. This entire section is about 2:49:14.640 --> 2:49:16.840 proving that they're that they that the number of guns 2:49:16.920 --> 2:49:19.280 doesn't like that, this isn't even like this isn't me 2:49:19.680 --> 2:49:21.480 like like I don't like this is not like me 2:49:21.640 --> 2:49:24.080 yelling about gun control or whatever. Like this is just 2:49:24.200 --> 2:49:26.840 to get you to understand the level of statistics these 2:49:26.879 --> 2:49:28.600 people are on. And also I should point this album. 2:49:28.920 --> 2:49:31.520 I tracked down their citation because I wanted to make 2:49:31.560 --> 2:49:34.320 sure I didn't I wasn't misunderstanding their arguments, right, So 2:49:34.480 --> 2:49:36.880 I tracked down their citation on these numbers, and I 2:49:36.959 --> 2:49:39.160 went to the paper they cited, and the thing they 2:49:39.240 --> 2:49:42.680 cited does not have a gun ownership numbers for El Salvador. 2:49:43.320 --> 2:49:45.160 So I have no idea where they getting any of 2:49:45.160 --> 2:49:47.280 these numbers they apparently they quite possibly have pulled this 2:49:47.360 --> 2:49:50.920 out of their ass completely because apparently apparently nobody checked 2:49:50.959 --> 2:49:54.080 if their citations actually contain the things that they're supposed to. 2:49:55.040 --> 2:49:56.960 This is what I wanted to talk about. There is 2:49:57.000 --> 2:49:59.560 a thing that happens when you get tanya or you 2:49:59.680 --> 2:50:02.160 become professor at the very established university, and that thing 2:50:02.280 --> 2:50:05.560 is you just say shit and people trust you. Like 2:50:05.680 --> 2:50:09.000 we've seen this time and again in the academy, right that, 2:50:09.200 --> 2:50:12.280 like peer review is not serving its functioned because like 2:50:12.360 --> 2:50:16.320 the status hierarchy of people in academia is more important 2:50:16.400 --> 2:50:20.120 to both the peer reviewers and the people doing the 2:50:20.240 --> 2:50:23.640 writing than the actual process of peer review. Yeah, like 2:50:24.920 --> 2:50:29.680 their citations are this is an interesting Uh, this is 2:50:29.959 --> 2:50:33.080 I don't know that they they've made the capital letters larger. 2:50:33.560 --> 2:50:35.920 They used a small arms survey. I guess for that. 2:50:35.920 --> 2:50:39.400 Obviously it doesn't it doesn't. It does show it doesn't 2:50:39.440 --> 2:50:44.600 have those numbers. It's amazing. Okay, So you know we've 2:50:44.680 --> 2:50:47.560 we've we've established that these people are absolute hacks whose 2:50:47.600 --> 2:50:49.760 word would have gotten be failed out of an undergrad course. 2:50:49.800 --> 2:50:52.760 So to be fair, maybe it's actually it's it's technically 2:50:52.800 --> 2:50:55.240 possible the University of Chicago just holds its students to 2:50:55.280 --> 2:50:57.560 more riduous standards than Harvard or M I. T. Whose 2:50:57.640 --> 2:51:01.120 journal published this does their intellectuals. So you know, I, 2:51:01.320 --> 2:51:05.119 I we we never know. This is also I never 2:51:05.440 --> 2:51:08.920 used Jacobin as a source on the show because they 2:51:09.000 --> 2:51:12.600 pay fifty bucks per article and that ship way. Yeah, 2:51:12.760 --> 2:51:16.879 Jacobin not a cool publication, actually not mega based. Yeah, 2:51:18.040 --> 2:51:20.640 your workers, if you're pertaining to be socialised. Yeah, she's 2:51:20.640 --> 2:51:25.800 trying to be like a labor But Bosh Garconara is 2:51:25.920 --> 2:51:28.800 on the record talking about the quote, his quote petite 2:51:28.840 --> 2:51:33.400 bourgeois hustle, talking about how we made Jacobin. So you know, okay, 2:51:33.480 --> 2:51:35.520 well we'll we'll get back to the class aspect of 2:51:35.560 --> 2:51:38.600 all of this next episode. But okay, let's go back 2:51:38.640 --> 2:51:41.720 to this paper, and let's take a second just look 2:51:41.720 --> 2:51:44.800 at what they're actually arguing. And the first thing I 2:51:44.840 --> 2:51:47.120 need to used to understand about their argument is that 2:51:47.160 --> 2:51:51.720 their entire, the entire substantive argument of this paper hinges 2:51:51.920 --> 2:51:56.160 on an absolutely enormous lie. Um here, let me let 2:51:56.280 --> 2:51:59.000 let let me let me we quote this lie. Yet 2:51:59.040 --> 2:52:01.800 it also illustrate rate's the much less well known fact 2:52:01.879 --> 2:52:04.320 that America is not in all an outlier and it's 2:52:04.440 --> 2:52:07.600 rate of policing. The United States has around two hundred 2:52:07.640 --> 2:52:10.880 and twelve police officers for every hundred thousand total residents, 2:52:11.280 --> 2:52:14.280 which ranks it in the forty one percentile of today's 2:52:14.320 --> 2:52:19.600 developed world. Now, as Alec Carricatanas points out, they've deliberately 2:52:19.680 --> 2:52:22.360 picked the lowest number of cops they can find any like, 2:52:22.440 --> 2:52:24.280 the lowest reported number of cops in the US they 2:52:24.280 --> 2:52:27.320 can find anywhere. Um, and so they picked six hundred 2:52:27.959 --> 2:52:30.879 thousand from basically like it's it's they picked this number 2:52:30.879 --> 2:52:34.680 from an FBI reporting thing. But the FBI also says 2:52:34.720 --> 2:52:36.520 that they don't have all the cops there because it's 2:52:36.560 --> 2:52:39.120 it's like it's basically like a voluntary reporting thing. So 2:52:39.200 --> 2:52:41.560 there's a bunch of cops that aren't there. And then, um, 2:52:41.600 --> 2:52:45.680 here's from Karakatatas, who's a piece about this quote the professors. 2:52:45.959 --> 2:52:49.879 The professor then admitted privately over email that the US 2:52:49.959 --> 2:52:53.560 census count is actually one million, two hundred twenty seven thousand, 2:52:53.640 --> 2:52:57.840 seven eight police. That's seventies six percent higher for the 2:52:57.920 --> 2:53:01.480 number they chose the US article. What is the significance 2:53:01.520 --> 2:53:04.480 of this using this number? They admitted to me the 2:53:04.560 --> 2:53:08.199 United States truthfully has one point one times the media 2:53:08.360 --> 2:53:13.960 rated rich countries. So they've been over email that they have. 2:53:14.520 --> 2:53:17.680 This whole article is based on them lying how many 2:53:17.720 --> 2:53:20.360 cops there are in the US. And it's actually way 2:53:20.440 --> 2:53:24.080 worse than this because as as as he points out right, 2:53:24.440 --> 2:53:28.400 this number than to the number that they're using only 2:53:28.520 --> 2:53:34.440 tracks public police, so they doesn't count private police. And 2:53:34.480 --> 2:53:36.600 if you count private police, that number doubles. Again, not 2:53:36.760 --> 2:53:41.039 like there's private police, there's there's no FIV cops, right 2:53:41.080 --> 2:53:42.640 and and the other thing isn't this the other thing 2:53:42.720 --> 2:53:46.320 is doesn't count? Is this counts zero federal agencies? I 2:53:46.440 --> 2:53:49.679 just gonna say that it doesn't count. Federal agency doesn't 2:53:49.720 --> 2:53:53.840 count like state police even I think, I think, actually 2:53:53.840 --> 2:53:57.000 I don't know. You can't shareff Is that not police? 2:53:57.080 --> 2:54:02.480 Their deputies? They're different patrol. I mean, who's who's to say, 2:54:02.560 --> 2:54:10.080 who's spent more time on this if they have already yeah, 2:54:10.320 --> 2:54:13.040 right right, okay, like to to get it to to 2:54:13.080 --> 2:54:16.280 get it understanding of this, even if you exclude the 2:54:16.360 --> 2:54:20.520 Feds entirely right EXCLA. And again, and this is actually 2:54:20.560 --> 2:54:22.360 a bad idea because again we have like a fucking 2:54:22.440 --> 2:54:25.240 trillion federal agencies, for example, ice in the Border Patrol, 2:54:25.280 --> 2:54:28.680 who again run just another police state inside of the 2:54:29.080 --> 2:54:33.560 American police state. Right, we have that and obviously, okay, 2:54:33.600 --> 2:54:36.360 so he's comparing our our level of policing to policing 2:54:36.440 --> 2:54:40.199 in in uh in like European countries, right, and okay, 2:54:40.280 --> 2:54:43.320 I I don't want to minimize how many border cops 2:54:43.400 --> 2:54:47.320 European countries have, but the US has way fucking more 2:54:47.360 --> 2:54:52.760 border clan they do not like, they do horrible things. 2:54:52.879 --> 2:54:55.080 I will yell at the until the end of time 2:54:55.120 --> 2:54:57.280 about how every every friend text member needs to be 2:54:57.400 --> 2:55:04.760 like redacted, etcetera, etcetera parody. But like, no, great, even 2:55:05.200 --> 2:55:07.959 even even if you cut that out right, the actual 2:55:08.120 --> 2:55:10.440 number of cops in the US is three times higher 2:55:10.480 --> 2:55:14.720 than the number they've given us. Actually it might be yeah, yeah, okay, 2:55:14.920 --> 2:55:17.280 I feel like there's there's anything that we can agree 2:55:17.320 --> 2:55:20.040 on as a nation is that America kind of has 2:55:20.080 --> 2:55:23.199 a lot of police. That's like that's like what everyone 2:55:23.320 --> 2:55:27.360 kind of knows. That's like people like people the place 2:55:27.440 --> 2:55:31.320 with like the really like it's like really militarized and 2:55:31.400 --> 2:55:35.200 heavy policing. Yeah, like like a person who moved to America, 2:55:35.320 --> 2:55:38.080 it is shocking how many cops there are, how many 2:55:38.080 --> 2:55:40.920 different cops there are, and how there are cops everywhere 2:55:41.080 --> 2:55:44.640 all the time. It is the thing that it is 2:55:44.760 --> 2:55:50.640 very different about America. Oh god, okay, so statistic to 2:55:50.760 --> 2:55:58.040 get that number quite possibly like that ship. Yeah yeah, 2:55:58.080 --> 2:56:02.120 I would absolutely if one of my students in community. 2:56:02.160 --> 2:56:05.040 God days, we'd have a talk. Okay, okay, So do 2:56:05.280 --> 2:56:07.320 you know what else is based on the myth of 2:56:07.400 --> 2:56:14.400 under policing these adverts for private cops. Yes, Federal Protective 2:56:14.400 --> 2:56:18.400 Service gets them. All right, we're back, uh okay, So 2:56:19.320 --> 2:56:23.040 all right, we've established that this this is, this is 2:56:23.160 --> 2:56:25.120 This argument is built on a pile of lines. However, 2:56:25.440 --> 2:56:28.760 the actual content of the argument is also really funny 2:56:28.920 --> 2:56:34.680 and completely incomprehensible. So their argument is that somehow, if 2:56:34.720 --> 2:56:38.879 the US had more cops, right, and and and if 2:56:38.959 --> 2:56:42.800 if if if the ratio of cops to people like 2:56:43.560 --> 2:56:45.560 that the U S had was like in line with 2:56:45.680 --> 2:56:49.360 the European countries, that somehow and there they never have 2:56:49.440 --> 2:56:52.359 a mechanism for how this would happen, This would somehow 2:56:52.600 --> 2:56:57.320 lower the incarceration rate. I think the mechanism is line 2:56:59.440 --> 2:57:01.960 that's whatever one says is that we have more police 2:57:02.000 --> 2:57:05.760 that lowers incarceration rates. Yeah. Yeah. The entire argument here 2:57:05.920 --> 2:57:08.320 is what if the US was like Sweden, then there 2:57:08.360 --> 2:57:11.320 would be five thousand more cops, but somehow also less 2:57:11.360 --> 2:57:16.920 one also one point nine billion less uh prisoners. So well, 2:57:17.240 --> 2:57:23.280 anything that's different between US and Sweden is oh god, okay. 2:57:23.320 --> 2:57:25.760 So so what why are socialists pushing for this? And 2:57:26.120 --> 2:57:29.280 especially socialists and again as these are these are people 2:57:29.760 --> 2:57:32.039 who in their article admit that they think the best 2:57:32.120 --> 2:57:34.760 way to deal with with poverty and with crime is 2:57:34.840 --> 2:57:39.199 welfare programs, not mass incarceration. So okay, so why why 2:57:39.640 --> 2:57:42.279 why are they pushing for this? And the initial answer 2:57:42.360 --> 2:57:46.120 is that they think they can reduce crime, specifically homicides 2:57:46.200 --> 2:57:52.119 by increasing policing, and they think which should be fair 2:57:52.360 --> 2:57:56.400 is an opinion that I would say at this point 2:57:56.560 --> 2:58:00.920 probably the majority of Americans have maybe I don't know 2:58:01.000 --> 2:58:04.440 if I buy that. I don't know if that's I 2:58:04.560 --> 2:58:06.360 think you may be a little bit further out of 2:58:06.360 --> 2:58:10.960 the Overton window. The majority of Americans, I think, do 2:58:11.360 --> 2:58:15.080 do believe that if there's a few more cops, maybe 2:58:15.120 --> 2:58:18.320 we'll have a few less murders. I don't know. Well, well, 2:58:18.360 --> 2:58:20.760 well we'll see about that. But Okay. The other thing though, 2:58:20.840 --> 2:58:24.080 that's sort of like amazing about this right is that 2:58:24.200 --> 2:58:26.800 they think, okay, so they think they can cut the 2:58:26.840 --> 2:58:29.360 homicide rate by hiring more police. They also think that 2:58:29.520 --> 2:58:33.240 hiring more police i will solve the problem with policing 2:58:33.280 --> 2:58:35.960 because the problem with police is that the police don't 2:58:36.040 --> 2:58:38.800 do enough, and so we need more of them. And 2:58:38.879 --> 2:58:41.760 then and then also and then also this will make 2:58:41.840 --> 2:58:45.720 them less violent. I mean, this is something, This is 2:58:45.800 --> 2:58:49.720 even the this is even like the whole like Joe Biden, like, 2:58:50.040 --> 2:58:52.600 we have to we can't we can't defund the police. 2:58:52.600 --> 2:58:54.840 We have to fund the police, have to resources because 2:58:54.879 --> 2:58:59.560 if if they have less resources, then that means they'll 2:58:59.600 --> 2:59:02.760 have to use more violence. And it's that that style 2:59:02.840 --> 2:59:07.640 of arguments, it's it's talking point. Yeah. But what's interesting 2:59:07.720 --> 2:59:10.199 about this again is that these people nominally are socialists, 2:59:10.840 --> 2:59:13.440 and you know, in order to justify this right, they 2:59:14.520 --> 2:59:16.840 argue that while being in prison is bad, and then 2:59:16.840 --> 2:59:19.760 they list a bunch of consequences of being in prison, 2:59:20.240 --> 2:59:23.320 being in a neighborhood is with high crime is also 2:59:23.440 --> 2:59:26.560 as bad. For the same reason. They're literally arguing the 2:59:26.720 --> 2:59:30.200 being in a place with crime is basically the same 2:59:30.280 --> 2:59:39.200 as being in prison, big time Prinston understanding, like I look, okay, 2:59:40.200 --> 2:59:42.160 there are there are very few people I would ever 2:59:42.240 --> 2:59:47.400 say that, Garrison. Look, I hope these people gotta do 2:59:47.440 --> 2:59:50.720 withthnography of this one day, Like I I hope, I 2:59:50.840 --> 2:59:52.640 hope they get to go study what the inside of 2:59:52.720 --> 2:59:56.280 prison is like I think participant observation. Yeah, I hope 2:59:56.320 --> 2:59:59.680 they do this like you, like they're they're there. There 2:59:59.720 --> 3:00:03.000 are there are lines in this article like here here, 3:00:03.280 --> 3:00:05.520 here is a random line I've pulled from this article, 3:00:05.560 --> 3:00:08.080 and they say at one point, quote, in fact, black 3:00:08.160 --> 3:00:11.879 people seem to be underrepresented among those who report ever 3:00:12.040 --> 3:00:17.600 having been arrested in their lifetimes. What alright? That is 3:00:17.600 --> 3:00:24.960 a direct quote citation need. What they've done some absolutely insane. 3:00:25.240 --> 3:00:27.000 I'm not even I'm not I'm not actually going to 3:00:27.120 --> 3:00:29.520 dignify them by laying out the stats bullshit that they've 3:00:29.560 --> 3:00:32.400 they've they've attempt to justify this, like we have already 3:00:32.520 --> 3:00:36.000 seen what their stats look like, their stats are trying 3:00:36.000 --> 3:00:40.800 to compare a rate. Yeah, it's insane, it's completely nuts. 3:00:41.400 --> 3:00:43.800 Like that's the one thing that that's the one thing 3:00:43.879 --> 3:00:47.000 that even like racist like Republicans like no is like 3:00:48.520 --> 3:00:52.200 they'll be like, yeah, there's more because because I don't 3:00:52.280 --> 3:00:56.560 like black people, and you're like, that's not why, but whatever. Yeah, 3:00:56.560 --> 3:01:01.000 I'm between this paragraph now and it is actually it's bad. 3:01:01.680 --> 3:01:05.800 So okay, I think, okay, so we have established this 3:01:05.840 --> 3:01:08.960 is bullshit, right, I want to read a kind of 3:01:09.080 --> 3:01:12.640 long section that I think gives the game away as 3:01:12.720 --> 3:01:16.840 to why they're arguing this quote. We think, in the 3:01:16.959 --> 3:01:20.000 long run, a significant expansion of social policy we reduce 3:01:20.080 --> 3:01:23.320 crime by addressing its root causes, and in turn reduced 3:01:23.360 --> 3:01:27.200 the need demand for both policing and imprisonments. Okay, other work, 3:01:28.040 --> 3:01:30.920 this is true, I would say probably probably true. In 3:01:31.000 --> 3:01:34.120 other work, we argue that any coherent conception of distributive 3:01:34.200 --> 3:01:37.400 justice or economic efficiency entails that the United States should 3:01:37.400 --> 3:01:41.480 expand its social policy. But a significant expansion of social 3:01:41.560 --> 3:01:46.160 policy requires significant redistribution from rich to poor. Redistribution of 3:01:46.240 --> 3:01:48.920 this magnitude will require the poorer to wield some kind 3:01:48.959 --> 3:01:51.800 of leverage over the rich. Given the collapse of the 3:01:51.840 --> 3:01:55.039 American labor movement and the electoral fracturing of the American 3:01:55.120 --> 3:01:58.199 working class, we doubt we will see anything like this soon. 3:01:59.120 --> 3:02:02.080 Our aim in this essays to say something useful about 3:02:02.120 --> 3:02:04.560 what should be done in the non ideal world in 3:02:04.600 --> 3:02:07.560 which we live, not just in the ideal world in 3:02:07.600 --> 3:02:12.240 which we would like to live. Just to hold on, wait, 3:02:12.520 --> 3:02:14.400 let me let me, let me read this next sentence. 3:02:14.879 --> 3:02:18.199 It gets worse. Okay, to say something about that question. 3:02:18.320 --> 3:02:23.600 We limit ourselves two options that are revenue neutral. Ah, 3:02:24.400 --> 3:02:28.720 these are socialists, so bizarre. I think they may have 3:02:28.879 --> 3:02:33.640 walked outside. They've yeah, like like they've they've you know, okay, 3:02:34.080 --> 3:02:36.160 there's okay, So there's actually more of this that is 3:02:36.200 --> 3:02:39.560 also like like it keeps going, can never have a 3:02:39.600 --> 3:02:43.480 better world. And you know what that means is that 3:02:43.560 --> 3:02:47.760 we should have more police. Here here, here is there, 3:02:47.840 --> 3:02:51.440 Here is their defense ofness. But why consider only prisons 3:02:51.480 --> 3:02:54.680 and police. Why couldn't the government redistribute the existing pool 3:02:54.720 --> 3:02:58.720 of money from prisons and police to social programs, as 3:02:58.800 --> 3:03:02.880 many reformers have to ended, We would argue in and 3:03:02.959 --> 3:03:05.040 What's Wrong with Mass Incarceration? Which is a book that 3:03:05.080 --> 3:03:13.560 they're going to release that I hope nobody buys. This 3:03:13.760 --> 3:03:16.440 is because social policy is bedeviled by what we call 3:03:16.600 --> 3:03:21.000 the efficiency feasibility paradox. To address the root causes of 3:03:21.120 --> 3:03:24.160 crime would be meaningfully to change the opportunity structure for 3:03:24.200 --> 3:03:27.360 the most disadvantaged people in America. To do this by 3:03:27.480 --> 3:03:32.280 expanding untargeted universal social programs will require significant resources, since 3:03:32.320 --> 3:03:36.160 the vast majority of beneficiaries are not America's most disadvantaged people, 3:03:36.879 --> 3:03:39.400 because penal spending is hyper targeted in a way that 3:03:39.480 --> 3:03:43.320 social spending is not. It costs about three billion dollars 3:03:43.360 --> 3:03:46.240 a year to run the world's most extensive penal state, 3:03:46.280 --> 3:03:48.560 but something like three trillion dollars to run its most 3:03:48.640 --> 3:03:52.520 amnemic welfare state. We admit there are significant This is 3:03:52.560 --> 3:03:55.920 a slightly lated prograph. We admit there are significant obstacles 3:03:55.959 --> 3:03:58.680 to changing the balance that state and local government strike 3:03:58.800 --> 3:04:02.440 between the arms of law enforcements. There are, after all, 3:04:02.640 --> 3:04:05.280 reasons that the United States has involved its present day 3:04:05.320 --> 3:04:08.400 penal balance. But our view is that the first world balance, 3:04:08.440 --> 3:04:10.240 So the first world balances is that the thing they're 3:04:10.240 --> 3:04:12.560 talking about that like supposedly Norway has or some ship 3:04:12.720 --> 3:04:15.200 where they have bore cops, but like per capita but 3:04:15.280 --> 3:04:18.760 less people incarcerated. Um. But our view is at than 3:04:18.840 --> 3:04:22.560 first world balance is nonetheless substantially more feasible than any 3:04:22.720 --> 3:04:25.840 of the than the kinds of things that reformers tend 3:04:25.879 --> 3:04:29.840 to demand today. In the highly unequal aligarhic America in 3:04:29.920 --> 3:04:34.800 which we live at present, calls to calls to reallocate 3:04:34.879 --> 3:04:37.600 a fixed pool of revenue will meet with less powerful 3:04:37.640 --> 3:04:41.000 opposition than calls to tax the rich. That is why 3:04:41.080 --> 3:04:44.080 we assume it is infeasible to expect the United States 3:04:44.160 --> 3:04:46.480 to build a generous welfare state in the mold of 3:04:46.480 --> 3:04:50.800 the Scandinavian social democracies. Proposals to use hyper targeted social 3:04:50.879 --> 3:04:55.440 policy to adjust the root causes of crime are similarly infeasible. 3:04:55.959 --> 3:04:58.760 As we have argued, to be efficient, a social policy 3:04:58.800 --> 3:05:01.959 intervention must' meaning we transformed the opportunity structures of those 3:05:02.040 --> 3:05:04.920 most likely to commit crime. I mean, an intervention that 3:05:04.959 --> 3:05:08.760 transformed the structures of opportunity only in only those in 3:05:08.840 --> 3:05:11.440 this position will up end the effective in such a 3:05:11.480 --> 3:05:14.360 structure of unequal societies, thus coming up the economy and 3:05:14.400 --> 3:05:18.560 eliciting political opposition. I mean here's Here's the thing is that, 3:05:19.000 --> 3:05:22.039 in some ways I agree that the United States won't 3:05:22.280 --> 3:05:25.560 get better by making social policies within my lifetime. But 3:05:25.720 --> 3:05:29.080 my solution to this is a legalist lifestylist of not 3:05:29.280 --> 3:05:32.440 hiring workoffs. Well, don't worry, there is there is a 3:05:32.600 --> 3:05:38.760 significant section of this. Wheathery shipped on anarchism. Okay, okay, 3:05:40.040 --> 3:05:43.480 this is what fucking happens when all your friends are 3:05:43.560 --> 3:05:47.640 also Harvard professors. I mean it's also real fucking people, 3:05:47.720 --> 3:05:51.080 because you don't fucking talk to them and they're like, oh, 3:05:51.840 --> 3:05:56.119 the lever it's it's obviously written by somebody who's currently 3:05:56.280 --> 3:06:00.200 like well off. Like it's they're currently doing well. Which 3:06:00.240 --> 3:06:03.360 is why because they because they don't think the world's 3:06:03.400 --> 3:06:06.680 going to turn into socialist utopia, but they're personally doing Okay. 3:06:07.040 --> 3:06:09.200 The way to will make the world feel better for 3:06:09.280 --> 3:06:11.560 them is maybe more police will make me feel safer 3:06:11.840 --> 3:06:14.480 like that, that's what that's what they're doing is because 3:06:14.520 --> 3:06:18.280 they're already well off and they're like, well, social isn't coming. 3:06:18.560 --> 3:06:21.200 I want to live a happier life. Maybe police will 3:06:21.280 --> 3:06:23.840 keep the bad people away from me. Yeah, because they 3:06:23.879 --> 3:06:27.400 see poverty of an issue of poverty is upstream of crime, 3:06:27.600 --> 3:06:29.920 and crime is a fucking annoyance to them because someone 3:06:30.000 --> 3:06:34.040 might steal their fucking BMW again crime. Living in a 3:06:34.080 --> 3:06:36.320 place where crime is the same as being in prison 3:06:38.560 --> 3:06:42.840 because you cannot conceive because it's socialism without sucking empathy 3:06:43.040 --> 3:06:46.800 or experience of fucking poverty. Right, so you can make 3:06:46.879 --> 3:06:50.600 these ludicrous statements and all your friends in the smoking 3:06:50.720 --> 3:06:53.240 room a Harvard will agree with you. Go harm yes, 3:06:56.200 --> 3:06:58.160 and I mean, I mean this is the thing very frustrating, 3:06:58.480 --> 3:07:02.039 Like they they fundament sleep like when Bernie lost the election, 3:07:02.120 --> 3:07:05.080 these people gave up on politics. Like that's what's happening there. 3:07:05.120 --> 3:07:07.880 They're arguing that like not even is not even just 3:07:08.000 --> 3:07:10.720 like the class drug goes is unwinnable. They're arguing that 3:07:10.920 --> 3:07:15.160 basic liberal politics is impossible, right, like taxing the rich 3:07:15.360 --> 3:07:17.240 like is a thing that that that's not like a 3:07:17.360 --> 3:07:20.880 radical thing, that's like like the basic that's like a 3:07:21.000 --> 3:07:24.720 basic democratic party thing. And they're they're arguing that it's 3:07:24.760 --> 3:07:28.640 so impossible that anyone who has a plan to change 3:07:28.680 --> 3:07:32.720 anything has to pre means test it to be compliant 3:07:32.760 --> 3:07:36.120 with a non existent balanced budget amendment to get the 3:07:36.240 --> 3:07:39.480 right to support it, Like Liz trust here, shit like 3:07:40.160 --> 3:07:42.040 this is what this was written by? What of the 3:07:42.120 --> 3:07:45.280 people on the editorial board of Jocobin. Yeah, well that 3:07:45.360 --> 3:07:50.040 doesn't chock me. But it's very funny to look at 3:07:50.040 --> 3:07:54.720 their citations, which are like people being like this article 3:07:54.840 --> 3:08:00.320 is horse shit, and then like like cop publications, Yeah, 3:08:00.400 --> 3:08:04.720 ok yeah, let's go so okay, so so have having 3:08:04.800 --> 3:08:06.840 actually well okay, so before we do we should we 3:08:06.840 --> 3:08:10.520 should do another add thing. Do you know what? Who 3:08:10.600 --> 3:08:14.040 else has completely abandoned the idea that there's any possibility 3:08:14.080 --> 3:08:18.000 of social change in the world. The Conservative Party and 3:08:18.160 --> 3:08:21.040 Unions Party in quite written in Northern Island. Yeah do 3:08:21.200 --> 3:08:24.200 they do. I guess now we're going to take the 3:08:24.240 --> 3:08:30.440 money out there. Thank you, Richie sa and okay, we're back. 3:08:30.520 --> 3:08:34.320 So so, having abandoned politics in favor of complete capitulation 3:08:34.400 --> 3:08:37.119 to the forces of reaction, they turned towards a cost 3:08:37.200 --> 3:08:42.040 benefit analysis of having more cops. The benefit, they argue, 3:08:42.160 --> 3:08:45.120 is less crime. And this is bullshit. There is no 3:08:45.160 --> 3:08:49.440 staistical evidence to having more cops produces crime. I have done, like, 3:08:50.800 --> 3:08:52.720 there are other reasons why this is bullshit. I have done. 3:08:52.959 --> 3:08:56.960 I have done the entire series about there is a 3:08:57.000 --> 3:09:00.600 lot of writing on this topic and how discorely this 3:09:00.760 --> 3:09:06.000 correlation is not actually effective. Um, but yeah, and and 3:09:06.240 --> 3:09:09.120 and it's also like a very important thing here is 3:09:09.480 --> 3:09:11.160 this is this is this is the thing that's about 3:09:11.200 --> 3:09:13.960 what kind of crime you care about, right, Like I 3:09:14.280 --> 3:09:17.080 have written an entire series about why my about. You know, 3:09:17.879 --> 3:09:20.320 the times of my police department was literally being run 3:09:20.400 --> 3:09:22.560 by multiple drug gartels at the same time when they 3:09:22.600 --> 3:09:24.960 strapped used to fucking radiators and attacking the balls the 3:09:25.000 --> 3:09:27.520 car batteries. They shot children in the street, They disappeared 3:09:27.560 --> 3:09:29.360 people to be tortured in the fucking black sites, and 3:09:29.400 --> 3:09:31.080 then they went to fucking a rock and teach the 3:09:31.120 --> 3:09:34.280 CIA how to do it. Like like these people that 3:09:34.400 --> 3:09:36.560 the cops are they are rapists, they are kidnappers, they 3:09:36.560 --> 3:09:39.760 are extortionists, they are thieves, they are torturers, they are murders. 3:09:39.920 --> 3:09:42.320 A lot of them are in literal neo Nazi gangs 3:09:42.320 --> 3:09:45.680 who run their own serial killer competitions. Um, none of 3:09:45.800 --> 3:09:48.480 this apply, like appears in any of the analysis that 3:09:48.560 --> 3:09:52.440 these dipshits have compiled. And it's when the old cultural 3:09:52.480 --> 3:09:56.200 turn to get involved. Ye look at the material conditions here, yeah, yeah, 3:09:56.280 --> 3:09:58.920 then the material conditions apparently are cop go up, crime 3:09:59.040 --> 3:10:02.440 go down, which it's also important, Like I think it's 3:10:02.440 --> 3:10:06.000 important to note there's a really good article, I think 3:10:06.040 --> 3:10:08.320 it was my amplist one called raise the Crime Rate 3:10:08.959 --> 3:10:11.520 from It's from like two thousand six. But they have 3:10:11.680 --> 3:10:15.400 that they have this point, which is that like the 3:10:15.520 --> 3:10:19.800 reductions in the crime way that we like see insofar 3:10:19.879 --> 3:10:23.039 as they happen, are not actually reductions into the amount 3:10:23.040 --> 3:10:27.640 of crime going on. Like what's happening is that, like 3:10:28.520 --> 3:10:32.640 we put people in prison and then the crime happens 3:10:32.720 --> 3:10:37.000 to them there. Right, Like, even even if you reduce 3:10:37.080 --> 3:10:40.920 the homicide rate outside of prison, there's still the homicide 3:10:41.000 --> 3:10:43.680 rate inside of prison, which nobody fucking gives a shit about. 3:10:44.400 --> 3:10:46.960 And you know because because again, this crime doesn't go away. 3:10:47.000 --> 3:10:49.360 All that happens is that it gets, it gets, you know, 3:10:49.440 --> 3:10:51.600 intensified and inflicted on a group of people the American 3:10:51.640 --> 3:10:54.240 public doesn't give a shit about. So, you know, all 3:10:54.280 --> 3:10:56.360 of the violence, all of the all of the rape, 3:10:56.400 --> 3:10:58.640 all the fucking murder, all of the theft, all of 3:10:58.720 --> 3:11:01.280 the ship we normally throw people in isn't for in theory, 3:11:01.520 --> 3:11:03.640 is just happening to people inside of prisons. It's just 3:11:03.720 --> 3:11:05.720 that academics can stop pretending to give a shit about 3:11:05.720 --> 3:11:08.400 it when they don't have to see it. Yeah, I 3:11:08.560 --> 3:11:11.320 like where I live, right, We just re elected a 3:11:11.400 --> 3:11:14.720 sheriff who was overseen like nineteen deaths in jail this 3:11:14.920 --> 3:11:17.280 year in San Diego. Right, but that is not seen 3:11:17.360 --> 3:11:20.120 as an issue of evidently to the people who voted 3:11:20.160 --> 3:11:23.200 for it, to the Democratic Party who endorsed her, and 3:11:23.360 --> 3:11:26.040 instead like they would much rather have that because there 3:11:26.560 --> 3:11:29.000 presumably worried that the person who ran against her in 3:11:29.040 --> 3:11:31.600 the primaries would be too soft d own crime and 3:11:31.720 --> 3:11:37.440 therefore you know, their teslas might get keyed. Yeah, so, okay, 3:11:37.560 --> 3:11:42.240 let's let's look at the supposed benefits. But less I 3:11:42.400 --> 3:11:45.520 guess those are the benefits. Let's look at let'sok at 3:11:45.560 --> 3:11:50.520 the costs. Finally consider, finally, consider the cost of policing. 3:11:50.720 --> 3:11:53.320 On the one hand, a world of more policing would 3:11:53.400 --> 3:11:57.680 perhaps unsurprisingly be a world of more arrests. Based on 3:11:57.840 --> 3:12:00.440 recent work by Chaplain our best guests at the First 3:12:00.520 --> 3:12:03.720 World Balanced would be a world of almost seven point 3:12:03.920 --> 3:12:08.959 eight million arrests. On the other hand, for some for okay, 3:12:09.000 --> 3:12:10.480 this is a direct quote. By the way, I need 3:12:10.560 --> 3:12:12.600 everyone to understand I am directly quoting them when I 3:12:12.680 --> 3:12:15.920 say this. On the other hand, for the somewhat speculative 3:12:15.959 --> 3:12:19.000 reasons we gave earlier, we guess that a world of 3:12:19.080 --> 3:12:22.160 more policing would be one of less police violence. About 3:12:22.280 --> 3:12:28.720 nine fewer people killed by the police based on what America. 3:12:30.560 --> 3:12:34.879 That's what that's that's how James americle occurs more cops 3:12:35.320 --> 3:12:40.320 than do less violence. Yep, yeah, this you know you 3:12:40.400 --> 3:12:43.160 could if you were, for example, a social scientist, right 3:12:43.280 --> 3:12:45.120 at all, you could look at all of the all 3:12:45.200 --> 3:12:47.279 of the other times the US has gotten more cops 3:12:47.800 --> 3:12:50.680 and tried to see if that like increased or decreased 3:12:50.680 --> 3:12:53.840 the amount of violence the police do. And you know 3:12:54.800 --> 3:12:56.720 the line, if you want the line, it's all good. 3:12:57.240 --> 3:12:59.080 I just I do want to your attention to figure 3:12:59.120 --> 3:13:02.240 one where they exactly one day to point and that 3:13:02.320 --> 3:13:06.800 they've just drawn a line to it, dissected a data 3:13:06.879 --> 3:13:12.400 point like blind oline. Like this whole thing is just 3:13:12.560 --> 3:13:16.280 sort of like like okay, So even if somehow, right 3:13:16.400 --> 3:13:19.800 by some miracle, this occurred and less people were killed 3:13:19.800 --> 3:13:22.240 by the police, we're killed by police violes because there 3:13:22.320 --> 3:13:24.560 was more cops. Which this is the kind of thing 3:13:24.680 --> 3:13:27.280 that for for for the purposes of this thought experiment, right, 3:13:27.360 --> 3:13:30.200 we are allowing people to believe this, like for the 3:13:30.280 --> 3:13:32.080 same reason that we allowed children to believe in the 3:13:32.120 --> 3:13:39.920 Easter Bunny. So kids don't believe in the Easter Buddy, 3:13:40.200 --> 3:13:43.120 I have I have met kids who believed in the 3:13:43.160 --> 3:13:46.600 Easter Bunny. I understand believing in Santa but people actually 3:13:46.640 --> 3:13:49.440 believe in the Easter Bunny. Not many, not many. But 3:13:49.800 --> 3:13:52.520 also also also most people don't believe the police will 3:13:52.520 --> 3:13:54.800 be more violent if if you have if it would 3:13:54.800 --> 3:13:59.160 be less violent if you have more of them. Yeah, 3:13:59.280 --> 3:14:02.760 let's let's let's let's let them believe this. Right, This 3:14:03.080 --> 3:14:07.360 entire argument hinges on the theory that incarceration and arrest 3:14:07.800 --> 3:14:11.360 are distinct outcomes of policing. Right, they're arguing that there's 3:14:11.360 --> 3:14:14.600 going to be more arrest but that's okay because there 3:14:14.640 --> 3:14:18.400 will be less people in prison. Now, there is one 3:14:18.520 --> 3:14:21.520 tidy problem here that you may have seen, which is 3:14:21.600 --> 3:14:25.600 that when you arrest people, it leads to people going 3:14:25.800 --> 3:14:31.440 to prison. Nowhere in this entire article have these two 3:14:31.600 --> 3:14:35.560 Harvard professors at any point considered the fact that when 3:14:35.640 --> 3:14:38.800 you arrest someone, they sometimes go to prison, and that 3:14:39.040 --> 3:14:42.360 arresting more people will mean more people go to prison, 3:14:42.640 --> 3:14:47.000 because that's what happens when you arrest someone. They've never 3:14:47.160 --> 3:14:50.200 considered this, and in fact, in fact, not only have 3:14:50.280 --> 3:14:52.520 they never considered this, they seem to believe that there 3:14:52.600 --> 3:14:55.480 is an inverse correlation between the number of people getting 3:14:55.520 --> 3:14:58.280 arrested and how many people go to prison. They think 3:14:58.440 --> 3:15:02.320 that seven million, eight hundred thousand more arrests will somehow 3:15:02.440 --> 3:15:05.840 lead to one point two million people less in prison. 3:15:07.400 --> 3:15:13.280 It's yeah, even the fucking what people in this country 3:15:13.480 --> 3:15:17.120 die in between arrest and they're hearing, right, like, in 3:15:17.200 --> 3:15:21.400 between arrested and having a fair trial, Like, yeah, to 3:15:21.520 --> 3:15:25.640 ignore that, it's it's not just like, it's not just wrong, 3:15:25.680 --> 3:15:29.200 it's callously cruel. Also, like they appeared to have not 3:15:30.080 --> 3:15:32.440 looked at any point at the opportunity cost of having 3:15:32.480 --> 3:15:35.680 all these cops. Right, we pay tops a metric ship 3:15:35.760 --> 3:15:39.160 ton of money because they're the only unions that apparently 3:15:39.240 --> 3:15:42.120 the state cares about, and like we could do something 3:15:42.240 --> 3:15:44.560 useful with that money, right, Like, well, the thing, the 3:15:44.640 --> 3:15:47.240 thing they claim they're doing is that they're going to 3:15:47.320 --> 3:15:49.920 fund less prisons and fund more cops, and this will 3:15:50.000 --> 3:15:52.080 lead to less people being in prison. Now, if this 3:15:52.200 --> 3:15:54.080 doesn't make any sense to you, that's because it doesn't 3:15:54.080 --> 3:15:56.640 make any sense at all. And and and again we 3:15:56.720 --> 3:15:58.960 have to come back to the question, what do you 3:15:59.160 --> 3:16:01.760 think happens a people who get arrested? Like do these 3:16:01.800 --> 3:16:04.080 people think they could send a vacation to Tahiti. Like 3:16:04.360 --> 3:16:06.560 I know none of these people, none of the people 3:16:06.600 --> 3:16:09.560 writing this have been arrested, but like you can't be 3:16:09.720 --> 3:16:17.040 the stupid, Like there's no way God. So okay, like 3:16:17.680 --> 3:16:19.920 we're I'm gonna close on some stuff here, which I'm 3:16:19.920 --> 3:16:21.840 gonna close on the sort of anarchist stuff that they 3:16:22.080 --> 3:16:24.680 they're ranting about. Um, I'm gonna'm gonna read another quote 3:16:24.680 --> 3:16:29.360 from this. Some civil libertarians might prefer radical decarceration without 3:16:29.400 --> 3:16:33.039 any increase or perhaps even some reduction in police force size, 3:16:33.520 --> 3:16:36.120 on the grounds that state imposed violence or harm is 3:16:36.200 --> 3:16:39.760 morally different from and worse than, interpersonal violence committed by 3:16:39.800 --> 3:16:43.600 private individuals. An extreme version of this position would hold 3:16:43.680 --> 3:16:46.560 that no amount of interpersonal violence could ever justify the 3:16:46.640 --> 3:16:49.360 use of commercive force by the state, but any state 3:16:49.440 --> 3:16:52.600 completely lacking and coercive power would be unable to enforce 3:16:52.760 --> 3:16:55.520 tax law and policy, and thus unable to collect revenue. 3:16:56.120 --> 3:16:58.840 Without revenue, the governor could not provide public goods to 3:16:58.879 --> 3:17:01.000 a social safety net. Which also, by the way, I 3:17:01.040 --> 3:17:04.080 want to stop here in like point out that like 3:17:04.440 --> 3:17:07.200 they like in any other context, none of these people 3:17:07.240 --> 3:17:09.200 believe this because like these. These people are all deal 3:17:09.280 --> 3:17:11.320 chart lists like that, they're all unempty people, and so 3:17:11.400 --> 3:17:14.520 they don't actually believe that money that they they in 3:17:14.640 --> 3:17:17.320 any other context except this one, they understand that money 3:17:17.360 --> 3:17:21.240 is something created by the state, except here when they 3:17:21.280 --> 3:17:25.000 have to justify police. Without revenue, governments cannot provide public 3:17:25.040 --> 3:17:27.199 goods or a social safety net. So this extreme version 3:17:27.200 --> 3:17:30.800 of libertarian civil libertarianisition is essentially a kind of political anarchism, 3:17:31.280 --> 3:17:33.280 and we doubt many are in fact committed to this 3:17:33.400 --> 3:17:37.360 brand of anarchism. So okay, well, let's unpack this second. 3:17:37.400 --> 3:17:40.080 When they say civil libertarianism here, what they say is 3:17:40.160 --> 3:17:43.959 that anyone who proposes to defund the police or reduce 3:17:44.000 --> 3:17:47.279 a number of people in prison. Right in the next paragraph, 3:17:47.360 --> 3:17:49.600 they argue that anyone who wants to do those things 3:17:50.320 --> 3:17:53.560 is actually in favor of increasing the homicide rate because 3:17:54.280 --> 3:17:57.400 when there's less when there's less cops than quote, serious 3:17:57.520 --> 3:18:00.920 crime runs unchecked in poor neighborhoods, which leaves you with 3:18:00.959 --> 3:18:04.280 two choices. Right, you can be an anarch quote unquote 3:18:04.280 --> 3:18:06.959 anarchist and let the crime happen because you supported decreasing 3:18:06.959 --> 3:18:10.640 the number of cops, or you can support having more cops. Yeah, 3:18:10.760 --> 3:18:13.960 it's yeah, it's just an absurd extrapolation of a position. Well, 3:18:14.080 --> 3:18:16.360 but it's it's not just that they've they've given. What 3:18:16.440 --> 3:18:18.800 they're doing here is they're giving their entire gameaway. Right. 3:18:19.320 --> 3:18:23.440 What they've admitted is that their ideal society requires and 3:18:23.840 --> 3:18:26.600 this is what they are saying about the state's need 3:18:26.680 --> 3:18:30.400 for coercive power, right with their own arguments. They the 3:18:30.640 --> 3:18:32.800 course of power they need is the police. And so 3:18:32.920 --> 3:18:36.040 what they're saying is that their politics requires an entire 3:18:36.120 --> 3:18:39.080 class of rapist, neo Nazi murderers to you know, like 3:18:39.360 --> 3:18:41.800 to enforce their vision of the welfare state. Like, in 3:18:42.160 --> 3:18:43.640 order for there to be a welfare state, who have 3:18:43.760 --> 3:18:45.240 to be a bunch of people who can fucking walk 3:18:45.280 --> 3:18:47.400 into your door and shoot you, Right, there have to 3:18:47.440 --> 3:18:49.440 be a group of people who can fucking stand there, 3:18:49.920 --> 3:18:52.760 grab your child, smash her head into a wall fifteen times, 3:18:52.840 --> 3:18:55.360 and then fucking grab you and throw you through a window. Right. 3:18:55.720 --> 3:18:59.119 This is what they are arguing, And and this plays 3:18:59.160 --> 3:19:01.040 the question, Okay, so why these people want more cops, 3:19:01.640 --> 3:19:03.480 And you know, the caricature they offer up is that 3:19:03.560 --> 3:19:05.320 without cops, everyone would just murder each other. And so 3:19:05.400 --> 3:19:07.160 we need neo Nazi desk wats to stop us often 3:19:07.200 --> 3:19:13.480 murdering each other. But okay, that's stupid, right, like self 3:19:13.560 --> 3:19:16.600 Evidently police police are only like police are not that old. 3:19:16.680 --> 3:19:18.920 They've only been around for like two hundred years, so 3:19:19.200 --> 3:19:21.080 we know that's not true. So why do they actually 3:19:21.160 --> 3:19:25.120 want more cops? And you know something, something that's very interesting, 3:19:25.160 --> 3:19:27.760 given that this is an article about the police that 3:19:27.959 --> 3:19:30.600 is written by people who are on the editorial board 3:19:30.600 --> 3:19:34.800 of socialist magazines, Nowhere in this article doesn't mention the 3:19:34.879 --> 3:19:38.440 fact that the cops exist to protect private property. Right. 3:19:39.040 --> 3:19:41.160 This is this is a huge part of what their existence. Right. 3:19:41.200 --> 3:19:43.280 Their job is to ensure if there is one class 3:19:43.280 --> 3:19:45.160 of people who owns the factories in the fields and 3:19:45.200 --> 3:19:47.440 the grocery stores and the fast food chains and the 3:19:47.520 --> 3:19:51.119 fucking card dealerships, and that there is another class who 3:19:51.200 --> 3:19:52.800 was forced to work for them and have their labor 3:19:52.840 --> 3:19:55.120 stolen every day of their lives. And of course these 3:19:55.160 --> 3:19:57.640 sort of like faux pro cop, the pro cop like fox. 3:19:57.680 --> 3:20:00.760 Social democrats will never mention it, right, but these people's 3:20:00.800 --> 3:20:04.040 version of quote unquote socialism is one in which all 3:20:04.160 --> 3:20:06.920 that ship, all the stuff that makes things like all 3:20:06.959 --> 3:20:09.120 of the businesses, all of the corporations, all of the 3:20:09.240 --> 3:20:11.240 all of that ship is owned by capitalists and not 3:20:11.320 --> 3:20:15.880 the working class. They need those cops specifically to protect 3:20:15.920 --> 3:20:18.560 the property of the ruling class from you, right like that. 3:20:18.720 --> 3:20:21.000 That that is ultimately what this is about, the specter 3:20:21.120 --> 3:20:24.520 of crime. And and this is true whether it's coming 3:20:24.560 --> 3:20:26.640 from socialists or whether it's coming from the most like 3:20:27.280 --> 3:20:31.640 unbelievably deranged Blue Lives Matter, cop freak. It is about 3:20:31.680 --> 3:20:35.760 stopping you from taking what is yours. And that that's 3:20:35.800 --> 3:20:37.920 the end of part one. In part two, we're gonna 3:20:38.000 --> 3:20:42.120 look at the whole sort of background ideology that's running 3:20:42.160 --> 3:20:47.680 all of this, and it also sucks. So yeah, come 3:20:47.720 --> 3:21:10.959 back tomorrow for more news. Love it? Yeah, podcasting, Oh 3:21:11.160 --> 3:21:13.879 I love it. I love when we're talking to microfilms 3:21:13.920 --> 3:21:19.879 and people listen. Yeah, good for them. It's gonna outlive 3:21:19.959 --> 3:21:26.000 microblogging apparently. Yeah, okay, who could who could have thought? 3:21:26.800 --> 3:21:31.720 We've won? Guys? We are the last medium standing. Well, 3:21:31.800 --> 3:21:33.920 to be fair, I do think the majority of people 3:21:34.000 --> 3:21:39.640 on this call got got this job small part because 3:21:39.720 --> 3:21:45.600 of like, yeah, yeah it's tree. Look at where our 3:21:45.680 --> 3:21:49.960 posts of bought us here to this moment. On the 3:21:50.040 --> 3:21:54.520 podcast it could Happen Here podcast where we don't explain 3:21:54.640 --> 3:21:58.800 what the podcast is. That's right, yea, And yeah, the 3:21:58.840 --> 3:22:02.680 podcast also contain me, Christopher Wong, contains Garrison Davis, it 3:22:02.720 --> 3:22:09.120 contains James Stout m and allegedly Rebert. However, Evans is 3:22:09.959 --> 3:22:12.800 I think he's legitimately actually busy right now. He is. 3:22:12.920 --> 3:22:15.320 He is like recording something else. There's yeah, he's doing 3:22:15.360 --> 3:22:16.720 a marath and think but if you look at the 3:22:16.760 --> 3:22:19.360 Ihart page, it's only Robert. We have. We have a 3:22:19.400 --> 3:22:23.000 lot of a lot of podcasts on Yeah, anyways, on 3:22:23.320 --> 3:22:26.560 the Cool Zone Media. Yeah, on the Cool Zone Media. 3:22:26.600 --> 3:22:30.800 That's right. So, speaking of podcasts we've done on the 3:22:30.840 --> 3:22:33.120 Cool Zone Media, we did one that came out the 3:22:33.200 --> 3:22:36.480 one before this one, and we'll see it about it 3:22:36.560 --> 3:22:38.360 was it was about how a bunch of socialists want 3:22:39.320 --> 3:22:46.160 more cops. Yeah, so okay, I asked myself the question 3:22:46.920 --> 3:22:50.960 when I read this, why why do they want this? 3:22:51.920 --> 3:22:56.200 How did we get here? Because they're rich and they're scared? Yes, 3:22:57.400 --> 3:22:59.960 this is true, it's there's there's also sort of there's 3:23:00.000 --> 3:23:03.119 also sort of deeper roots to what's happening here. And okay, 3:23:03.160 --> 3:23:05.800 so like it is true that there's been a whole 3:23:05.840 --> 3:23:08.200 wave of people who were sort of nominally progressive or 3:23:08.240 --> 3:23:10.800 like socialistity dozens six, ten or two and seventeen who 3:23:11.480 --> 3:23:13.800 turned right in the past few years, particularly over ratio 3:23:13.879 --> 3:23:18.040 issues like Leafing, Grant Greenwald like more recently the t 3:23:18.200 --> 3:23:21.440 y T people like bush Ar Sakara's were doing crime 3:23:21.480 --> 3:23:24.760 wave ship like kind of recently, which was actually really funny. 3:23:24.760 --> 3:23:26.760 He had this tweet about how like, oh, the crime 3:23:26.879 --> 3:23:29.520 race is not actually down. There's a specific neighborhoods where 3:23:29.560 --> 3:23:31.960 the crime where people are poor, where the crime is up, 3:23:31.959 --> 3:23:33.600 and then you look at the data and that's exactly 3:23:33.600 --> 3:23:37.400 the opposite of what's happening. But okay, so, but this 3:23:37.680 --> 3:23:39.960 entire push for sort of more police is part of 3:23:40.120 --> 3:23:42.600 a broader political project that Donna Roused me and his 3:23:42.680 --> 3:23:45.120 sort of allies in Jocoban and etcetera, etcetera, been pushing 3:23:45.160 --> 3:23:49.680 for years now. And this sort of like political project 3:23:50.000 --> 3:23:52.280 is the class side of what's called the class versus 3:23:52.400 --> 3:23:55.840 race or the race versus class debate. So for people 3:23:55.879 --> 3:23:58.160 who were either weren't here for this or have like 3:23:58.320 --> 3:24:02.920 blissfully forgotten this, the race class debate was basically an 3:24:03.000 --> 3:24:06.920 argument about sort of the role of race in leftist organizing. Um. 3:24:07.080 --> 3:24:10.200 The argument was basically like, Okay, should we understand race 3:24:10.400 --> 3:24:13.680 is like a structural force in in the US that 3:24:13.800 --> 3:24:17.480 requires its own specific organizing around racial justice and liberation movements, 3:24:17.680 --> 3:24:21.000 or should be attempt to put class first and attempt 3:24:21.040 --> 3:24:23.360 to solve racism by appealing to the interests of the 3:24:23.520 --> 3:24:27.080 entire working class and only doing class based organizing. Um, 3:24:27.600 --> 3:24:30.800 there are broadly like three types of class first people. Weirdly, 3:24:30.800 --> 3:24:33.760 we're gonna see two of them here. Um, there are 3:24:33.800 --> 3:24:36.680 a very small number of very committed and very radical 3:24:36.760 --> 3:24:39.640 Marxists and like a small number of anarchists who think 3:24:39.760 --> 3:24:42.480 that like well, race was a product of class anyways, 3:24:42.520 --> 3:24:44.039 and so if you end the class system and abolished 3:24:44.040 --> 3:24:47.240 private property, that's the sort of like actual central like 3:24:47.760 --> 3:24:51.080 mechanism of oppression society. And if you do that, like 3:24:52.400 --> 3:24:54.440 you know, race will sort of fall apart, and so 3:24:54.879 --> 3:25:00.120 you know you should um whatever consciousness anyway, Yeah, like 3:25:00.400 --> 3:25:02.520 these people are wrong. I think they're less dangerous and 3:25:02.520 --> 3:25:03.920 the other kind of two people. But we're also gonna 3:25:03.920 --> 3:25:06.960 see one of these guys later. So there there's the 3:25:07.000 --> 3:25:09.080 people like call the like class with like a k 3:25:10.160 --> 3:25:13.440 people who are just straight up like racists like they 3:25:13.480 --> 3:25:17.040 are they are class with a kkk yeah right like 3:25:17.120 --> 3:25:20.240 they you know, the groups of socialists I've compared them to, 3:25:20.480 --> 3:25:22.080 or like the socialist who came to the US after 3:25:22.120 --> 3:25:25.720 Etty and we're like, oh, ship who cares like slavery, 3:25:25.840 --> 3:25:28.080 Like we we don't care about slavery. The actual thing 3:25:28.240 --> 3:25:30.640 that like is good for the working classes, stealing more 3:25:30.720 --> 3:25:32.520 land for indigenous people, and this is how we're going 3:25:32.560 --> 3:25:35.800 to solve the labor question. Or also the sort of 3:25:35.920 --> 3:25:37.800 like like the the people who were in the Nights 3:25:37.800 --> 3:25:40.160 of Labor, like the eighteen eighties, who were like, all right, 3:25:40.200 --> 3:25:41.879 we need to we need to defend labor the way 3:25:41.879 --> 3:25:44.520 we're gonna defend labors by technically cleansing the entire West 3:25:44.560 --> 3:25:47.760 coast of Chinese people like these are basically these guys 3:25:47.879 --> 3:25:50.160 right there, they're just straight up racists to want unions 3:25:50.240 --> 3:25:53.920 and healthcare. Um. They used to be a real faction 3:25:54.000 --> 3:25:56.120 in the d s a UM formed around just like 3:25:56.200 --> 3:26:00.520 absolutely dogshit subreddit called stupid pole Um. They used to 3:26:00.520 --> 3:26:02.680 be a bunch of them in Philadelphia and these kind 3:26:02.720 --> 3:26:05.360 of people like they were like red scares initial base 3:26:05.920 --> 3:26:09.400 and so by you know, this is like the by 3:26:09.480 --> 3:26:13.160 now like two, these people are almost entirely deranged trade 3:26:13.200 --> 3:26:16.240 cats who spent literally their entire time deep throwing Peter 3:26:16.400 --> 3:26:20.680 Field's boot. So they're kind of mostly like they're they're 3:26:20.760 --> 3:26:23.160 just right wingers now like that that's what's happened to 3:26:23.200 --> 3:26:27.880 these people. Um, good riddance fuck um. I yeah. And 3:26:28.000 --> 3:26:30.880 then there are people like ordinary used to be in 3:26:30.920 --> 3:26:34.360 Bosh carcent Kara who don't really want to end capitalism 3:26:34.680 --> 3:26:37.400 and think that socialism is just sort of like welfare 3:26:37.480 --> 3:26:40.600 states and some unions. And also and they also and 3:26:40.680 --> 3:26:43.480 this is sort of critical, tend to think that racial 3:26:43.560 --> 3:26:46.240 justice organizing is a distraction from their main goal of 3:26:46.360 --> 3:26:49.600 achieving socialism. And by achieving socialism, I mean electoralism, and 3:26:49.680 --> 3:26:52.360 by electoralism, I mean getting these people elected to office. 3:26:53.280 --> 3:26:56.880 I hate these people. Their politics sucks. I've been fighting 3:26:56.920 --> 3:26:59.160 them from like since I became a leftist. I've been 3:26:59.160 --> 3:27:02.360 at war with these bowl and to to get a 3:27:02.480 --> 3:27:05.560 sense of how we got from, you know what, what 3:27:05.760 --> 3:27:08.480 was legitimately in a lot of cases, what was at 3:27:08.560 --> 3:27:10.720 least legitimately in arguing about how to deal with racism 3:27:11.040 --> 3:27:14.240 to a bunch of socialists going, we need more cops. 3:27:14.400 --> 3:27:17.080 I want to take a look at a piece r 3:27:17.959 --> 3:27:21.360 Adam or Usami wrote in Catalyst with David Zachariah called 3:27:21.440 --> 3:27:24.720 the class path the racial Liberation, And I want to 3:27:24.800 --> 3:27:26.720 take a quote from its opening to give it a 3:27:26.840 --> 3:27:29.480 sense of people of like how awful this politics is. 3:27:30.040 --> 3:27:31.360 This is like like one of the sort of like 3:27:31.440 --> 3:27:34.320 opening statements about what what the's why they're taking the 3:27:34.360 --> 3:27:37.680 class side in the debate. We argue that the class 3:27:37.760 --> 3:27:41.840 race debate should center on one principal domain, the distribution 3:27:41.959 --> 3:27:47.959 of material resources. Now, Okay, at first glance, this seems 3:27:48.040 --> 3:27:53.680 kind of reasonable enough, But there's another incredibly important aspect 3:27:53.760 --> 3:27:57.000 of any attempt to grapple with racing class that Usumi 3:27:57.080 --> 3:28:01.920 is just ignoring entirely. And that's violets, right. Race. Race 3:28:02.080 --> 3:28:04.480 is not just a measure of economic inequality. It's an 3:28:04.520 --> 3:28:08.879 index of violence. And you know, racialization increases your risk 3:28:08.920 --> 3:28:11.400 of interperson inter personal violence, and increases your risk of 3:28:11.440 --> 3:28:14.119 sexual violence, and increases your risk of mass communal violence 3:28:14.120 --> 3:28:17.199 on lynching or sort of ethnic cleansing campaigns, and maybe 3:28:17.280 --> 3:28:21.080 most importantly for this whole argument, like being racialized dramatically 3:28:21.200 --> 3:28:25.560 increases the risk of suffering state violence. And this is 3:28:25.600 --> 3:28:28.119 a real problem for the sort of class first people 3:28:28.200 --> 3:28:31.080 because you know, something sort of multiple like multi racial 3:28:31.120 --> 3:28:34.000 working class electoral project won't do ship to prevent people 3:28:34.480 --> 3:28:37.440 from experiencing state violence just because there's welfare programs, you know, 3:28:37.640 --> 3:28:39.280 which we talked about this what this looks like in 3:28:39.320 --> 3:28:42.680 our Brazil episodes. Right, you actually have like legitimately a 3:28:42.720 --> 3:28:44.680 you know, like a sort of united multi racial working 3:28:44.680 --> 3:28:48.480 class at election social democratic governments and they enact anti 3:28:48.520 --> 3:28:51.280 poverty before performs and increase the size of the welfare state. 3:28:51.640 --> 3:28:54.320 And while this is happening, they also increase incarceration the 3:28:54.360 --> 3:28:58.480 incarcerated population by six and created a rated police killing 3:28:58.520 --> 3:29:00.760 that as eleven times higher than it is an US right. 3:29:02.040 --> 3:29:04.879 And this is the thing these people really don't want 3:29:04.959 --> 3:29:07.240 anyone to think about, which is that race is actually 3:29:07.280 --> 3:29:12.120 more complicated than economic inequality, which this entire politics is 3:29:12.160 --> 3:29:14.640 is dedicated to not seeing because class first politics, like 3:29:14.720 --> 3:29:17.560 a lot of what it really is about, amounts to 3:29:17.720 --> 3:29:22.240 a theoretical framework that gives you a way to argue 3:29:22.280 --> 3:29:24.840 that race is not an explanatory framework for literally anything, 3:29:24.879 --> 3:29:26.960 so you don't have to talk about it and anyone 3:29:27.000 --> 3:29:28.960 who talks about it is dividing the working class or 3:29:29.000 --> 3:29:34.640 some ship, and it, yeah, it fucking sucks. And you know, 3:29:34.800 --> 3:29:36.600 like one of one of the big sort of political 3:29:36.680 --> 3:29:42.560 violence things is massacrceration. And one of sort of donna 3:29:42.640 --> 3:29:45.920 is like political projects is arguing that massacrcepiration isn't about 3:29:46.000 --> 3:29:52.640 race at all, but it's actually about class, which so 3:29:53.120 --> 3:29:56.200 we're going to see somewhere bullshit, um, he wrote. He 3:29:56.280 --> 3:29:58.760 wrote an article in Catalyst called the Economic Origin the 3:29:58.800 --> 3:30:02.840 mass Incarceration a longside New Chicago professor John Clegg, and 3:30:02.920 --> 3:30:06.560 I have like I have an enormous special contempt for 3:30:06.640 --> 3:30:09.320 John Clegg for two reasons here. One because you know, 3:30:09.400 --> 3:30:12.039 a Donner is like an irredeemable Jocobin like soaked them 3:30:12.120 --> 3:30:14.960 hack right. Clegg is nominally was was part of the 3:30:15.000 --> 3:30:17.880 sort of the anglophan Barxist like ultra left right, like 3:30:18.040 --> 3:30:19.959 he he was one of the contributors to the sort 3:30:20.000 --> 3:30:22.879 of to to the ultra left theory journal like ultra 3:30:22.920 --> 3:30:26.240 left Barxist Communization Journal end Notes, which you know, like 3:30:26.480 --> 3:30:27.760 that influenced me a lot when I was like a 3:30:27.840 --> 3:30:31.320 tiny baby leftist. And he I also have an incredible 3:30:31.320 --> 3:30:33.360 amount of contempt here because he's a Harper Schmidt fellow 3:30:33.400 --> 3:30:36.280 at the University of Chicago. And here's the thing. Okay, 3:30:36.280 --> 3:30:38.320 I don't know what Harvard is like, right, I've never 3:30:38.440 --> 3:30:40.560 been there. I don't know what their campus is like. 3:30:40.720 --> 3:30:42.680 I don't know what it's like to be be on 3:30:42.840 --> 3:30:46.039 campus at Harvard. I know what you Chicago. The Chicago 3:30:46.120 --> 3:30:47.920 campus is like. I know, but there's a cop on 3:30:48.000 --> 3:30:50.920 every fucking corner. I know that the surveillance campus literally everywhere. 3:30:51.160 --> 3:30:53.480 I know if that they locked down the entire fucking campus, 3:30:53.520 --> 3:30:55.920 will hundreds of heavily armed cops storm through every building 3:30:55.959 --> 3:30:58.240 in every courtyard in the area every single time that 3:30:58.320 --> 3:31:00.320 kids steal something from a gaming store and runs for 3:31:00.360 --> 3:31:02.600 it until they've hunted them the fun down. And I 3:31:02.720 --> 3:31:04.680 know that, you know, I I know that the cops 3:31:04.720 --> 3:31:06.560 almost fucking killed me while I was there during a 3:31:06.600 --> 3:31:09.440 police chase. I know that John Clegg was on fucking 3:31:09.520 --> 3:31:11.880 campus when the Chicago Police Department shot a kid who 3:31:11.959 --> 3:31:15.440 was having a mental health crisis. And to to watch 3:31:15.680 --> 3:31:19.040 this ship every single fucking day and to make this 3:31:19.200 --> 3:31:22.520 kind of argument is just fucking unforgivable. It is. It 3:31:22.640 --> 3:31:24.840 is fucking atrocious. I I guess I should. I should 3:31:24.840 --> 3:31:26.400 explain this a little bit for people who do don't 3:31:26.480 --> 3:31:29.520 understand this. So, the University of Chicago is like in 3:31:29.600 --> 3:31:32.040 the middle of the South side of Chicago. It's like 3:31:32.160 --> 3:31:34.959 the nigh like most neighborhoods around it are like black. 3:31:35.080 --> 3:31:37.039 And then there is just this fucking university they've planted 3:31:37.080 --> 3:31:39.400 in the middle of it. And this college has the 3:31:39.400 --> 3:31:42.440 world's largest private police force. There's the also the regular 3:31:42.520 --> 3:31:45.840 fucking cpds around there. There are like for like blocks 3:31:45.879 --> 3:31:48.600 and like like through other neighborhoods there were just Chicago 3:31:48.640 --> 3:31:52.200 police officers there. There are fucking CPD cops everywhere. It 3:31:52.360 --> 3:31:56.720 is a fucking bibilitorized hell hall. And yeah, and you know, 3:31:56.920 --> 3:31:59.880 like it is a place where like the way that 3:32:00.080 --> 3:32:02.600 race functions in the US is blindingly fucking obvious. You 3:32:02.680 --> 3:32:06.280 can you can immediately understand it by looking, Like you 3:32:06.680 --> 3:32:09.280 walk outside your fucking dorm, you look at the cop, 3:32:09.520 --> 3:32:11.480 and you look at how the cop treats people depending 3:32:11.480 --> 3:32:15.560 on what the race is. Right, it is so unbelievably obvious. However, 3:32:15.760 --> 3:32:18.560 Comma in this article Clagg, it is to me are 3:32:18.560 --> 3:32:21.080 going to argue that mass incarceration is actually a product 3:32:21.200 --> 3:32:24.840 of class policy resulting from a lack of social democracy 3:32:24.920 --> 3:32:28.199 and underdevelopment resulting from a transition from an agrarian economy 3:32:28.240 --> 3:32:32.560 to an industrial economy in the in the century, and 3:32:32.800 --> 3:32:35.880 the subsequent mass migration of black people north. Like what 3:32:38.120 --> 3:32:43.760 kind of a grarian economy? We have to watch economy? 3:32:43.920 --> 3:32:50.400 How much paid? It's like it's like the basic argument 3:32:50.800 --> 3:32:53.560 that they're gonna make is that, like, well, so there 3:32:53.560 --> 3:32:54.920 are a bunch of people who had been slaves and 3:32:54.959 --> 3:32:57.400 then they became not slaves, and then a bunch of 3:32:57.400 --> 3:33:00.200 them started migrating north. But because there was this mass migration, 3:33:00.200 --> 3:33:01.959 all these people showed up to the like showed up 3:33:01.959 --> 3:33:04.560 to these cities where there was no infrastructure, and then 3:33:04.600 --> 3:33:06.600 so there was a bunch of crime, and then because 3:33:06.600 --> 3:33:10.640 of the crime, there was mass incarceration, which is, okay, 3:33:10.640 --> 3:33:12.720 we're going to get some war into this. But before 3:33:12.760 --> 3:33:15.960 we go into served the reactionary part of this article, right, 3:33:17.000 --> 3:33:19.240 you have to understand that when these people say that 3:33:19.360 --> 3:33:23.080 this is a a like a class based policy, like 3:33:23.440 --> 3:33:25.840 class here does not mean the same thing that it 3:33:25.920 --> 3:33:28.440 means for like you know, a regular person who thinks 3:33:28.480 --> 3:33:31.039 about class, or like you know, a Marxist which again 3:33:31.160 --> 3:33:34.199 both these people nominally are. Um. Here's from the journal Specter, 3:33:34.240 --> 3:33:36.680 which a really good sort of critique of of this 3:33:36.800 --> 3:33:41.440 whole absolutely dogshit article. Quote Clegg and usums claim that 3:33:41.640 --> 3:33:45.560 class is essential to understanding mass incarceration amounts to a 3:33:45.680 --> 3:33:50.480 repackaging of a widely understood fact as revelatory insight. And 3:33:50.600 --> 3:33:53.760 while they titled their article quote the Economic Origins and 3:33:53.800 --> 3:33:57.560 mass Incarceration, they never delve further into class and a 3:33:57.640 --> 3:34:02.520 Marxist or even critical sense. Instead, they use educational attainment 3:34:02.680 --> 3:34:06.000 data as a proxy. They note that a large portrait 3:34:06.080 --> 3:34:09.400 of people who are imprisoned have low levels of educational entertainment. 3:34:09.480 --> 3:34:12.000 And I I'm glad to know that everyone on this 3:34:12.080 --> 3:34:14.720 call who does the exact same job as me, we're 3:34:14.760 --> 3:34:18.520 all from different classes. Congratulations, James, you are now the bourgeois. 3:34:18.520 --> 3:34:21.160 The congratulations Garrison, you're not proletariat, I might guess, the 3:34:21.240 --> 3:34:25.880 labor aristocracy. Why I'm here to expropriate the surplus value 3:34:25.959 --> 3:34:32.560 from your labor gyeah? Yeah, And if you get to prison, 3:34:32.680 --> 3:34:37.080 it's it's my fault. Yeah, Like I I just okay, 3:34:37.600 --> 3:34:42.280 So like what an asshole? What would ridiculous fucking claim? Yeah? 3:34:42.480 --> 3:34:44.720 And it's like like these okay, so like like it 3:34:44.840 --> 3:34:46.600 was some these like the Jocobin people do this all 3:34:46.640 --> 3:34:48.400 the time, right, Like they had this they made this 3:34:48.440 --> 3:34:50.520 famous study about the people who vote for Trump that 3:34:50.720 --> 3:34:52.920 was like, oh, it's people people who voted for Trump 3:34:52.959 --> 3:34:55.240 didn't like working class areas and the game woarding class 3:34:55.440 --> 3:34:59.320 was by education data. And then also they didn't go 3:34:59.520 --> 3:35:01.360 because it's up like this is actually true, right there 3:35:01.400 --> 3:35:02.720 there are a lot of people who vote with Trump 3:35:02.760 --> 3:35:05.039 for working class areas. It turns out who those people 3:35:05.080 --> 3:35:07.240 are are the small business owners who work class areas. 3:35:08.120 --> 3:35:10.960 They didn't fucking go grand your love, so that you 3:35:11.040 --> 3:35:12.560 know they do this ship all the time, right, and 3:35:12.800 --> 3:35:16.480 this is the kind of analysis that like like proxy 3:35:16.840 --> 3:35:20.400 for class. It's like it's a classic fallacious thing. Yeah, 3:35:20.480 --> 3:35:24.120 like like what's his name, Nicholas Christoff, but yeah he 3:35:24.320 --> 3:35:27.000 did this too, also like like this is this is 3:35:27.040 --> 3:35:30.280 this is We're we're getting fucking Christoff level analysis out 3:35:30.320 --> 3:35:36.480 of these supposed Marxists and like, okay, so all right. 3:35:36.640 --> 3:35:39.280 The curious thing here is that clag at least on 3:35:39.320 --> 3:35:41.800 an intellectual level, knows better than this, right, Like he 3:35:41.959 --> 3:35:43.800 votes he wrote for end notes and notes has a 3:35:43.879 --> 3:35:47.000 very sophisticated class analysis. But if you're actually interested in 3:35:47.040 --> 3:35:49.120 the sweeping arc of the history of the proletariat, you 3:35:49.240 --> 3:35:51.400 can't make the kinds of arguments that Clagg is making 3:35:51.480 --> 3:35:54.720 in this thing. And so, you know, because because he's 3:35:54.760 --> 3:35:56.400 trying to make this argument, users used to this like 3:35:56.680 --> 3:36:00.200 like just absolutely like like seventh rate like fucking New 3:36:00.280 --> 3:36:04.480 York Time is pundit level analysis. Yeah, it's like okay, 3:36:05.120 --> 3:36:07.560 you know, like there there, it's it's this is really 3:36:07.600 --> 3:36:09.760 sad because for actual Marxists and not sort of like 3:36:10.040 --> 3:36:13.520 liberal bourgeois hacks doing like fucking New York Times bullshit. 3:36:14.280 --> 3:36:16.680 You know, classes about ownership, right, It's about who owns 3:36:16.720 --> 3:36:18.560 the means of production and who's forced to work for them. 3:36:19.040 --> 3:36:21.600 And you know, okay, so you have this, you have 3:36:21.680 --> 3:36:23.720 the proletariat or like the working class, where the people 3:36:23.720 --> 3:36:25.360 who own nothing and are thus forced to sell their 3:36:25.440 --> 3:36:27.560 labor for people who do who do own stuff. Right. 3:36:28.600 --> 3:36:31.640 But this also presents a problem for this entire argument, 3:36:31.760 --> 3:36:34.440 because if you actually want to do class analysis, you 3:36:34.520 --> 3:36:37.039 have to understand that race plays a major roland who 3:36:37.120 --> 3:36:39.240 even gets to become part of the regular proletariat in 3:36:39.240 --> 3:36:42.840 the first place, because most there's a lot of people 3:36:42.920 --> 3:36:44.959 through the development of the course of capitalism who fucking 3:36:45.080 --> 3:36:47.959 never even got to become wage labors because they were enslaved, 3:36:47.959 --> 3:36:50.400 they were exterminated, they were turned to debt peons and 3:36:50.840 --> 3:36:53.520 oh wait, guess who fucking got that ship? Oh yeah, 3:36:53.560 --> 3:36:56.480 it wasn't white people. And you know, if if, if 3:36:56.480 --> 3:36:58.480 you're if you're gonna write and if you're gonna be 3:36:58.560 --> 3:37:01.520 writing arguments and like playing the rise of like a 3:37:01.680 --> 3:37:04.560 mass system of enslavement, you might want to think about this. 3:37:04.760 --> 3:37:12.200 But no, okay, So do you know what else is 3:37:12.240 --> 3:37:17.160 responsible for a mass serious a mass system of enslavement? Uh? 3:37:17.280 --> 3:37:21.720 The advertising and how they affect our brains. Yeah, that one. 3:37:21.879 --> 3:37:25.360 I was going to go with Stalin, but the same 3:37:25.879 --> 3:37:29.520 same day if honestly, yeah, Stalent first mass marketer so 3:37:29.840 --> 3:37:32.840 true famously Yeah it Stalin. I'll saying you're me okay, 3:37:32.879 --> 3:37:36.080 if you're asking, Okay, we're back, and we're back to 3:37:36.120 --> 3:37:40.040 talk about the other argument of the economic origin of 3:37:40.080 --> 3:37:43.960 massive carecederation, which is that the argument that massive carcederation 3:37:44.040 --> 3:37:49.200 happened because people were legitimately scared about crime, Like this 3:37:49.360 --> 3:37:52.560 is their argument. Their argument is that crime went up 3:37:53.000 --> 3:37:55.760 people demanded less crime, and then the government did it, 3:37:59.160 --> 3:38:02.320 Like wait did they did they give an outsis to 3:38:02.400 --> 3:38:07.200 the class of people. Okay, they make this fun argument 3:38:07.320 --> 3:38:09.560 that both black and white people were demanding the end 3:38:09.600 --> 3:38:13.000 of crime, which is sort of true. But you know, 3:38:13.120 --> 3:38:16.920 if you look at what like like yeah, like obviously, 3:38:16.959 --> 3:38:19.280 and this is the thing, right, Like, you can find 3:38:19.360 --> 3:38:21.879 people of any race who can who will take basically 3:38:21.920 --> 3:38:24.840 any political position, and so if if you go looking 3:38:24.959 --> 3:38:26.840 for like black people who are tough on crime, you 3:38:26.879 --> 3:38:28.800 can find it. Right, there are black politicians who are 3:38:28.840 --> 3:38:31.600 like tough on crime. Right, but that's also not the 3:38:31.680 --> 3:38:35.520 reason why massacretiation happened, Like I'm sorry, And also, like 3:38:35.879 --> 3:38:37.760 you know, if you and you know that there was 3:38:37.760 --> 3:38:39.400 there was also there are people who who like weren't 3:38:39.440 --> 3:38:41.880 tough on crime, people who were like talking about who 3:38:41.959 --> 3:38:45.560 were talking about trying to end like sort of like 3:38:46.080 --> 3:38:47.879 like violent spikes. But if you look at what they 3:38:47.920 --> 3:38:50.840 were saying, it was stuff like we want the police 3:38:50.920 --> 3:38:56.160 to like respect human rights instead of property rights, and uh, 3:38:56.640 --> 3:38:59.360 you know, okay, so I yeah, this is this is 3:38:59.440 --> 3:39:04.400 just sort of silly, right yeah, But but but the 3:39:04.959 --> 3:39:06.720 point of this is that this is basically This is 3:39:06.760 --> 3:39:09.800 their full on broadside against abolitionism as like a body 3:39:09.879 --> 3:39:12.840 of work, right, it's a sort of modern abolitionism. Um, 3:39:13.080 --> 3:39:17.240 it's directly criticizing Michelle Alexander's The New drym Crow mass 3:39:17.280 --> 3:39:20.160 incarceration in the Age of Color Blindness. And it's also 3:39:20.240 --> 3:39:22.440 like a volley basically against anyone who's trying to explain 3:39:22.480 --> 3:39:26.720 mass incarceration through race. And so what they argue is 3:39:26.800 --> 3:39:30.840 that crime increase because there wasn't a strong labor movement 3:39:30.879 --> 3:39:34.199 to solve the problem that like caused solve the problems 3:39:34.240 --> 3:39:37.600 that cause crime with economic like reistribution, So the state 3:39:37.720 --> 3:39:40.160 turned to like a cheaper option, which is prisons. And 3:39:41.760 --> 3:39:44.960 is it a cheap proprition? Well, okay, so they're they're 3:39:45.120 --> 3:39:49.520 they're not wrong in this, Like there is some truth here, right, 3:39:49.600 --> 3:39:52.959 which is that there is a reason that mass incarceration 3:39:53.000 --> 3:39:55.480 started spiking when capitalism went into crisis in the seventies 3:39:55.480 --> 3:39:58.359 and eighties. And it is actually it is actually genuinely 3:39:58.440 --> 3:40:00.240 cheaper for for for the boys where you need to 3:40:00.320 --> 3:40:01.920 run a prison state that it is to run a 3:40:02.000 --> 3:40:06.320 welfare state. But and and this is the important part, right, 3:40:08.040 --> 3:40:11.600 both the welfare state and the prison complex are different, 3:40:11.600 --> 3:40:14.160 are just different forms of kind of insurgency it used 3:40:14.200 --> 3:40:17.160 to be. Who is a social democrat is ideologically incapable 3:40:17.200 --> 3:40:20.200 of understanding this. His his entire ideology is that like 3:40:21.640 --> 3:40:23.360 is based on the fact that the welfare state is 3:40:23.400 --> 3:40:26.040 the end point of socialism. But this is completely backwards, right. 3:40:26.400 --> 3:40:29.600 The welfare state and and social democracy were first implemented 3:40:29.680 --> 3:40:32.840 by Bismarck, like specifically as a way to buy workers off, 3:40:32.879 --> 3:40:34.800 to stop them from carrying out a socialist revolution and 3:40:34.879 --> 3:40:37.200 actually seizing the pro like seizing the property of the 3:40:37.240 --> 3:40:39.160 ruling class and using the production for the benefit of 3:40:39.240 --> 3:40:41.680 mankind and not profit. That is why the ship the 3:40:41.800 --> 3:40:45.960 welfare state was invented. Like that in practice, if you 3:40:46.000 --> 3:40:48.439 go back to Edmund Burke right in the French Revolution, 3:40:48.680 --> 3:40:51.200 reform to preserve the idea that like, we have to 3:40:51.240 --> 3:40:54.160 give people these little these little slices here and there, 3:40:54.480 --> 3:40:57.240 give them a treat, and then then then then they 3:40:57.280 --> 3:41:00.080 will never come in and take the cake. And if 3:41:00.080 --> 3:41:02.040 you read these people, they're really explicit about this, Like 3:41:02.080 --> 3:41:04.520 they will just aquidly say we're buying off the working class. 3:41:04.760 --> 3:41:08.800 But these absolute clowns have like somehow convinced themselves that 3:41:08.920 --> 3:41:14.840 this is what socialism actually is. Social socialism is when 3:41:14.959 --> 3:41:20.440 socialism is when you confuse table scraps for treats, and 3:41:20.520 --> 3:41:22.680 you know, and and this this comes to sort of 3:41:22.760 --> 3:41:25.480 the other thing that that that these people can't understand, 3:41:25.520 --> 3:41:27.879 which is that social democracy was a class compromise. Right. 3:41:28.640 --> 3:41:30.400 There was a deal that the capitalist of the working 3:41:30.440 --> 3:41:32.160 class agree to. And when I when I say they 3:41:32.160 --> 3:41:34.960 agree to this, right, like, this isn't just sort of 3:41:35.040 --> 3:41:37.240 like an like it kind of is an abstract deal. 3:41:37.400 --> 3:41:40.240 But there are also very literal deals. Right. There's this 3:41:40.280 --> 3:41:42.200 thing called the Treaty of Detroit, which is this massive, 3:41:42.520 --> 3:41:45.920 basically set of negotiations. And then are like agreements that 3:41:45.959 --> 3:41:48.800 are made between the US government like like a huge 3:41:48.840 --> 3:41:50.880 portion of organized labor in the auto industry and the 3:41:50.920 --> 3:41:54.720 auto companies, right, which which basically like the substance of 3:41:54.720 --> 3:41:56.800 the Treaty of Detroit was like if you give us 3:41:56.840 --> 3:41:59.360 all of this welfare ship and benefits ship, right, we 3:41:59.440 --> 3:42:02.080 won't we will stop constantly going on strike. These are 3:42:02.160 --> 3:42:05.400 explicit deals. They're explicitly being negotiated between these massive trade 3:42:05.480 --> 3:42:09.280 unions and and like the capitalist who owned companies by 3:42:09.280 --> 3:42:12.040 the American government, and so they get this deal on 3:42:12.040 --> 3:42:13.840 the deal is you get unions and pension and a 3:42:13.920 --> 3:42:16.040 vacation and like health care, as long as you don't 3:42:16.120 --> 3:42:18.400 like seize control of factories and run them for themselves. 3:42:19.200 --> 3:42:22.720 And this held from sort of like the fifties through 3:42:22.760 --> 3:42:26.760 the seventies. But partially this held because also the US specifically, 3:42:26.800 --> 3:42:29.640 which is really really rich as economy was growing really fast. 3:42:30.640 --> 3:42:33.520 But you know, but by by the by the suddenly 3:42:33.520 --> 3:42:35.959 the rate of prophet is starting to collapse, and suddenly 3:42:36.040 --> 3:42:38.600 it does actually become possible to both pay for the 3:42:38.680 --> 3:42:41.280 welfare state and have capital turned into war capital at 3:42:41.280 --> 3:42:44.320 the same time. And you know what happens is full 3:42:44.400 --> 3:42:46.200 on class war over the course of seventies and the eighties, 3:42:46.240 --> 3:42:49.640 and you know, the capitalists win the class war. And 3:42:49.760 --> 3:42:51.560 the product of this, and this is true not just 3:42:51.720 --> 3:42:53.200 in the U s but in in like a lot 3:42:53.240 --> 3:42:55.720 of other neoliberal countries too, is that there is a 3:42:55.879 --> 3:42:58.520 massive military that this the state is sort of stripped 3:42:58.520 --> 3:43:01.880 down to nothing in tern of like providing services, but 3:43:02.040 --> 3:43:04.240 there's this massive build up of the military and police 3:43:04.320 --> 3:43:08.120 and also prisons. And so you know, this isn't some 3:43:08.240 --> 3:43:09.640 sense that like if you if you want a class 3:43:09.640 --> 3:43:11.680 based explanation of mass incarceration, like this is part of 3:43:12.080 --> 3:43:14.000 that's a big part of what's going on. It's also 3:43:14.080 --> 3:43:16.320 true that in the US, insofar as there was sort 3:43:16.360 --> 3:43:19.120 of a revolutionary force, it was black people doing like 3:43:19.879 --> 3:43:23.640 like doing the panthers, doing the like blanking on it, 3:43:23.879 --> 3:43:26.960 doing the Black Liberation Army, and this meant that sort 3:43:26.959 --> 3:43:28.760 of the sort of kind of revolution to this was 3:43:28.840 --> 3:43:32.840 specifically about deploying the sort of like like they're deploying 3:43:32.920 --> 3:43:36.199 the state against these people because yeah, like this movement 3:43:36.280 --> 3:43:39.360 is actively trying to destroy capitalism by destroying the races 3:43:39.720 --> 3:43:43.840 like police apparatus, and this I guess at the same 3:43:43.879 --> 3:43:47.040 time period like aim for instance. Yeah, and you know, 3:43:47.200 --> 3:43:49.520 so the ruling class sort of loses their minds and 3:43:49.800 --> 3:43:51.240 this is this is also this is also part of 3:43:51.280 --> 3:43:53.760 what's happening here. But the problem is the sort of 3:43:53.840 --> 3:43:58.080 Jocobin cop freaks like need the police for their like 3:43:58.240 --> 3:44:00.760 social democratic hell world that they want to build, and 3:44:00.879 --> 3:44:03.680 so they can't have any like it is it is 3:44:03.680 --> 3:44:06.480 incredibly structurally dangerous for them. For people to be arguing that, 3:44:06.600 --> 3:44:09.760 like the police are inherently a force of like systemic 3:44:09.879 --> 3:44:14.520 racial oppression because they want them around yeah, and so 3:44:14.680 --> 3:44:19.560 they do all this. Yeah, and you know, Clegg meanwhile, 3:44:19.680 --> 3:44:21.800 especially I can tell, just doesn't want to use race 3:44:22.000 --> 3:44:25.280 as like an explanation for ship Like they literally argue 3:44:25.320 --> 3:44:27.160 in this in this thing, like in this in this 3:44:27.360 --> 3:44:29.960 article that white flight was actually just capital flight and 3:44:30.080 --> 3:44:34.560 wasn't about racism. Good, And they just they're they're doing 3:44:34.600 --> 3:44:36.800 this entire thing about right this our political economy of 3:44:37.440 --> 3:44:40.440 the city, and they just they never mentioned they're so 3:44:40.600 --> 3:44:43.320 ruthlessly committed to their program of not talking about racism, 3:44:43.320 --> 3:44:47.320 but don't even mention redlining. It's like like they've managed 3:44:47.360 --> 3:44:49.960 to go to the right of like the Libertarian Party 3:44:50.040 --> 3:44:57.880 on race. It's like them to the right. So I'm 3:44:57.920 --> 3:45:01.440 gonna I'm gonna read more from the Spector article. That's 3:45:01.440 --> 3:45:04.640 like yelling at these people considering their investments in the 3:45:04.760 --> 3:45:07.880 category of violent crime. Clegg and used to be seemed 3:45:07.920 --> 3:45:12.400 curiously serene about the practices that upheld segregation. They would 3:45:12.400 --> 3:45:15.520 have us believe that such tactics are simply quote cast 3:45:15.560 --> 3:45:19.720 based remedies of exclusion, and that quote such strategies were rational, 3:45:19.879 --> 3:45:24.200 even if suboptimal in the long run, effectively rationalizing and 3:45:24.280 --> 3:45:31.240 apologizing for racism. So this is great. And then they 3:45:31.560 --> 3:45:34.440 capped this off with this giant, like swelling crescendo of 3:45:34.480 --> 3:45:38.360 an argument about how the left can't ignore crime. And 3:45:39.280 --> 3:45:43.600 you know, okay, so this is an argument with political consequences, right, 3:45:43.600 --> 3:45:45.320 And you can see those consequences in that in the 3:45:46.160 --> 3:45:50.000 cops article we were talking about yesterday. Um here, here, 3:45:50.080 --> 3:45:52.800 here's a quote from that article. This figure shows the 3:45:52.879 --> 3:45:55.480 same prisoner and police data as shown in figure one, 3:45:55.560 --> 3:45:58.280 but this time denominated by the level of homicide rather 3:45:58.320 --> 3:46:02.640 than the population amor because outlying incarceration look rate looks 3:46:02.720 --> 3:46:05.720 normal given the level of serious crime, and now the 3:46:05.879 --> 3:46:08.560 level of policing in the United States appears exceptionally low 3:46:08.640 --> 3:46:12.840 compared to other countries. So okay, you can see the 3:46:12.879 --> 3:46:16.879 line of argument here, right, It goes like mass incarceration 3:46:17.040 --> 3:46:19.600 isn't about race, it's actually about class, and actually it's 3:46:19.640 --> 3:46:22.760 really about crime. And then it goes from the crime 3:46:22.879 --> 3:46:24.840 to oh, well, this is about crime too. We need 3:46:24.920 --> 3:46:27.400 to actually do something about crime. And then that turns 3:46:27.440 --> 3:46:29.160 into the only thing we can do about crimes, have 3:46:29.240 --> 3:46:35.640 more cops, you know, and and and the other part 3:46:35.680 --> 3:46:39.840 of this, right, it goes back to the thing about like, okay, 3:46:39.959 --> 3:46:41.480 the thing about like that, you know, and this is 3:46:41.480 --> 3:46:44.040 something that Garrison was talking about yesterday, right like the 3:46:44.440 --> 3:46:46.440 way in which you can only think the level of 3:46:46.520 --> 3:46:48.920 policing in the US is exceptionally low, is is if 3:46:48.959 --> 3:46:53.000 you never interacted with a cop. And yes, this is 3:46:53.040 --> 3:46:56.280 a deliberate thing, right the sort of Dracobin cadre of 3:46:56.440 --> 3:46:59.280 like faux marx Is, like their entire political project was 3:46:59.680 --> 3:47:02.720 really originally was driving off the anarchists you found it Occupy, 3:47:03.400 --> 3:47:05.400 you know, drinking like and driving these people into the 3:47:05.440 --> 3:47:07.680 political wilderness. It is placed it with their sort of 3:47:07.720 --> 3:47:10.160 beer credit cops socialism. Right like what one of one 3:47:10.200 --> 3:47:12.320 of the first like big Jocobin articles was a giant 3:47:12.360 --> 3:47:14.760 thing about why this Zapatitis aren't model for the American 3:47:14.879 --> 3:47:19.800 left because right like this is that these people have 3:47:20.120 --> 3:47:23.240 been anti anarchists like to their core, and again because 3:47:23.240 --> 3:47:24.560 they need cops, they need to get rid of the 3:47:24.560 --> 3:47:26.720 people who hate the cops. Like again, the people who 3:47:26.760 --> 3:47:29.120 were actually on the street street Occupy, who have seen 3:47:29.160 --> 3:47:31.920 ship like for example, the bloody stains on the wall 3:47:31.959 --> 3:47:34.240 outside of police holding pens where the cops smashed the 3:47:34.320 --> 3:47:37.360 heads into of like every single person they arrested a 3:47:37.480 --> 3:47:41.040 thing that happened constantly drink occupy right, and these people 3:47:41.360 --> 3:47:43.720 who you know have seen the police shoot their friends 3:47:43.800 --> 3:47:46.920 eyes out, like, are incredibly inconvenient if you're trying to 3:47:46.959 --> 3:47:49.040 put yourself on top of a police state. And you 3:47:49.120 --> 3:47:51.480 know so of course our abolitionists, which means you also 3:47:51.560 --> 3:47:53.840 need a sideline them them and and these are this 3:47:54.000 --> 3:47:56.080 you know, this sort of strategy is an old entrenched 3:47:56.320 --> 3:48:00.640 like position of of of these people. Um in, Jeremy Gong, 3:48:00.760 --> 3:48:02.840 who was like the one time basically like the dictator 3:48:02.920 --> 3:48:05.520 of d. S. A. East Bay, was caught in in 3:48:05.640 --> 3:48:09.320 secret documents saying quote, we are not in caps, by 3:48:09.320 --> 3:48:13.359 the way, in his capital letters, not for abolition of prisons. 3:48:13.480 --> 3:48:17.680 I would go further of black people want more police 3:48:17.720 --> 3:48:21.920 in their neighborhoods. Really yeah, Jeremy Gong, by the way, 3:48:22.000 --> 3:48:25.560 Asian dude, not black. Fuck you eat ship. I hope 3:48:25.600 --> 3:48:27.920 you're having fun, Like, well, I don't have I don't 3:48:27.920 --> 3:48:29.200 hope you're having fun. I hope you're having a bad 3:48:29.240 --> 3:48:31.720 time losing another election by getting three percent of the 3:48:31.800 --> 3:48:36.880 vote or some ship like fuck you eat ship. Um yeah, 3:48:36.959 --> 3:48:41.360 and I should mention this also like it's a very 3:48:41.440 --> 3:48:44.160 obvious thing to say, but like it should be pointed 3:48:44.240 --> 3:48:48.520 out that like everyone who's making this argument like that, 3:48:48.680 --> 3:48:51.520 specifically these arguments about cops and about the stuffing about crime, 3:48:51.600 --> 3:48:55.920 these people are all either wider Asian, and I genuinely 3:48:56.000 --> 3:48:58.680 think that plays a pretty big role in why they're 3:48:58.720 --> 3:49:02.240 doing this. And it's just to breathtaking position to take 3:49:04.880 --> 3:49:08.400 as a white person, Like I'm looking at the anarchist 3:49:08.480 --> 3:49:12.720 Barring article which she wrote for news Week, great source 3:49:12.800 --> 3:49:15.680 of unbiased content on the left about how where we 3:49:15.760 --> 3:49:18.600 need to stop gas lighting progressives need to stop gas 3:49:18.720 --> 3:49:23.560 lighting people on crime too, as a white person, take 3:49:23.680 --> 3:49:25.680 the stand with the platform that has been given to you, 3:49:25.760 --> 3:49:27.960 with all the privileges that you have had, and and 3:49:28.160 --> 3:49:31.760 gas like black folks about the importance of race. It's 3:49:31.880 --> 3:49:37.880 just breathtakingly lacking in like context of self awareness or 3:49:38.000 --> 3:49:40.760 like have you not been fucking paying attention like at 3:49:40.840 --> 3:49:42.440 least for the last two years, if not for the 3:49:42.520 --> 3:49:44.600 last twenty years, you know, And I mean, like this 3:49:44.800 --> 3:49:47.240 is the whole thing where like they have this whole 3:49:47.280 --> 3:49:50.240 sort of political project that's like like makes talking about 3:49:50.240 --> 3:49:52.480 like their goal is to make talking about this ship 3:49:52.600 --> 3:49:56.040 sound cringe, because you know, they and they have to 3:49:56.160 --> 3:49:58.000 write this is this, this is this is also sort 3:49:58.040 --> 3:50:01.200 of class based revival strategy, right because like they these 3:50:01.240 --> 3:50:03.840 people couldn't fucking hack it as abolitionist scholars. They have 3:50:03.920 --> 3:50:06.120 no fucking idea what they're talking about. Right If they, 3:50:06.120 --> 3:50:08.760 if they, if they have to actually intellectually like be 3:50:08.920 --> 3:50:12.480 in the same sphere as like someone like Ruth Gilmore Wilson, 3:50:12.760 --> 3:50:14.720 they are going to get fucking blow. Like these people 3:50:14.760 --> 3:50:17.560 look like this is this is like a fucking battle 3:50:17.680 --> 3:50:21.360 cruiser going to war gets a speedboat, right, Like, they 3:50:21.400 --> 3:50:23.200 can't fucking hack it, And so they have to sort 3:50:23.200 --> 3:50:25.720 of like do all of this ship to convince people 3:50:25.760 --> 3:50:28.040 that like, no, no, no, it's actually really not about race. Uh, 3:50:28.360 --> 3:50:30.480 it's it's actually about class, this thing that I can 3:50:30.960 --> 3:50:33.240 very easily pretend to care about for academia in a 3:50:33.280 --> 3:50:36.120 way that I can't with you know, pretending to care 3:50:36.120 --> 3:50:39.800 about race, because like I, I can't even fucking fake it, right, 3:50:39.840 --> 3:50:42.360 And you know I would say this's like back in right, 3:50:42.400 --> 3:50:44.320 Like Jeremy Gong and his allies are very careful to 3:50:44.400 --> 3:50:46.480 frame their view in terms of like, wow, we want 3:50:46.520 --> 3:50:49.680 to end mass incarceration in police violence, but we have 3:50:49.800 --> 3:50:51.280 to be tactical about how we do it, and the 3:50:51.360 --> 3:50:53.040 tactical about how we do it is black people want 3:50:53.040 --> 3:50:55.400 more cops, right, But that that was their internal documents. 3:50:55.400 --> 3:50:59.520 Their external their external statements were like, well some police 3:50:59.560 --> 3:51:02.080 abolition is some stuff looks like more cops anyways, But 3:51:02.240 --> 3:51:04.280 but you know, internally they were always saying this. And 3:51:04.800 --> 3:51:06.840 now with the you know, these people think that there's 3:51:06.840 --> 3:51:08.600 a political right turn coming and they think that, you know, 3:51:08.760 --> 3:51:11.360 they can fucking take their mask off and just say 3:51:11.400 --> 3:51:14.000 what they really mean, which is five more fucking cops, 3:51:14.520 --> 3:51:16.680 and you know, and part of what's going on here, right, 3:51:16.680 --> 3:51:18.120 it is like, like the reason this is happening is 3:51:18.120 --> 3:51:19.920 because when the uprising happened, these people were just caught 3:51:19.960 --> 3:51:23.280 with their pants down because their entire political project for 3:51:23.480 --> 3:51:27.000 like fucking how how how many years were they doing this? 3:51:27.120 --> 3:51:30.720 Like seven years was elect Bernie Sanders, and then he 3:51:30.960 --> 3:51:35.960 lost back to back successively to like Hillary Clinton, who 3:51:36.040 --> 3:51:38.360 was maybe the least popular can the Democrats ever run ever? 3:51:38.680 --> 3:51:42.280 And Joe Biden, who is a fucking senile rapist who 3:51:42.560 --> 3:51:45.120 like again it was like, um, they they lost his 3:51:45.160 --> 3:51:47.400 election to a man who couldn't remember who who he 3:51:47.520 --> 3:51:51.840 had been vice president under and they couldn't beat him, right, like, 3:51:52.440 --> 3:51:54.440 so these people were completely discredited, and then you know, 3:51:54.480 --> 3:51:56.200 the uprising happens and people were caught with their pants 3:51:56.240 --> 3:51:59.000 down because they spent their entire fucking time or like 3:51:59.320 --> 3:52:02.000 arguing that there's no path liberation through race, like race, 3:52:02.200 --> 3:52:05.360 any kind of race politics at all, intersectionalities bullshit, like 3:52:05.400 --> 3:52:06.840 we just have to focus on class, just to focus 3:52:06.920 --> 3:52:09.960 on class, and they're fucking pure class. Electoral campaign failed 3:52:10.080 --> 3:52:12.640 in oh, hey, guess what it failed in the South, 3:52:13.040 --> 3:52:17.120 Like wow, damn, I wonder why this politics got swept 3:52:17.200 --> 3:52:19.920 by Joe Biden. Okay, And then you know, and then 3:52:19.960 --> 3:52:23.440 and then the up the uprising starts, and the uprising 3:52:23.920 --> 3:52:26.600 is you know, the uprising is about anti racism. It 3:52:26.680 --> 3:52:28.880 is about people looking at the at the violence like 3:52:29.040 --> 3:52:31.040 of the police against black people and going fuck this 3:52:31.880 --> 3:52:35.320 and they have nothing right, like the whole intellectual leadership here, 3:52:35.360 --> 3:52:37.720 like all these people are fucking calling for world crops. 3:52:37.800 --> 3:52:41.480 Bernie Sanders is arguing for Moore cops right like Rapo 3:52:41.560 --> 3:52:44.280 was fucking Trampa was literally making the same arguments that 3:52:44.720 --> 3:52:48.840 my fucking mayor made. Well, she was raising the fucking drawbridges. 3:52:48.880 --> 3:52:50.760 Is stop protesters from being able to get back into 3:52:50.760 --> 3:52:53.440 the middle of Chicago, which is that actually, like cops, 3:52:53.800 --> 3:52:55.320 becoming a cop is actually one of the few ways 3:52:55.400 --> 3:52:59.440 that non white people can join the middle class. Right. 3:53:00.160 --> 3:53:02.160 I was like, I think Amber made that argument, right, Um, 3:53:02.640 --> 3:53:06.160 so you know they have nothing right and you know, okay, 3:53:06.480 --> 3:53:08.680 and and and you know, and the uprise eventually gets supressed, 3:53:08.680 --> 3:53:10.000 which the best thing that ever happened to these people, 3:53:10.000 --> 3:53:11.600 because if the uprising has to see these people were 3:53:11.640 --> 3:53:16.480 done right. Like, but all of this has enormous consequences, right, 3:53:16.520 --> 3:53:18.560 which is the failure of the working class to appear 3:53:18.600 --> 3:53:20.520 at the ballot box. And like Paul Bernie Sanders over 3:53:20.560 --> 3:53:22.440 the line against Joe Biden revealed something that was like 3:53:22.520 --> 3:53:25.360 patently obvious to anyone who've been watching how the working 3:53:25.400 --> 3:53:28.080 class is moving worldwide for the past twenty years, which 3:53:28.160 --> 3:53:30.160 is that the only thing that can actually unify the 3:53:30.240 --> 3:53:32.160 if you care about class politics, the only thing that 3:53:32.200 --> 3:53:34.720 can unify the working class and pull it together as 3:53:34.760 --> 3:53:37.640 a coherent political force to do a thing is their 3:53:37.680 --> 3:53:40.320 hatred of the police. If if you look at if 3:53:40.360 --> 3:53:42.240 you look at what the work of working class politics 3:53:42.280 --> 3:53:45.080 in the century, the world, the working class finds his 3:53:45.160 --> 3:53:49.480 historical unity exactly and only on the barricade it appears undivided. 3:53:49.800 --> 3:53:52.400 Literally nowhere else it is impossible. You can't do it. 3:53:52.520 --> 3:53:56.560 The only thing that does it is fighting the police 3:53:57.680 --> 3:54:01.000 more broadly and like means of state violence. Right, Like 3:54:01.040 --> 3:54:02.560 if we look at the popular friend in its Spain, 3:54:02.880 --> 3:54:05.880 it don't you even get like cops who are installed 3:54:05.920 --> 3:54:08.360 by a socialist republican government joining the working class to 3:54:08.400 --> 3:54:11.480 fight the military. But yeah, instead we're going to be 3:54:11.560 --> 3:54:13.440 like the working class will be united in this op 3:54:13.600 --> 3:54:15.560 ed at news week dot com or and there's this 3:54:15.600 --> 3:54:18.760 smoking electoral thing, right, And it's like no, and I 3:54:18.880 --> 3:54:21.840 think that like this this is partially about this people 3:54:21.960 --> 3:54:24.320 not understanding the sort of broad arc of of the 3:54:24.400 --> 3:54:26.240 last decade a decade and a half, which is that, 3:54:26.320 --> 3:54:29.280 like this was the actual meaning behind the people want 3:54:29.320 --> 3:54:31.760 to fallow of the regime. Right this, this was what 3:54:31.960 --> 3:54:33.960 was going on in the last decade of uprising in 3:54:34.000 --> 3:54:37.320 the street movements across the world. Right, is that that 3:54:37.560 --> 3:54:39.200 was the thing that could unify the working class. But 3:54:39.240 --> 3:54:40.880 of course, and and this is the sort of secret 3:54:40.920 --> 3:54:43.720 of all of this, right, Like, these people don't want 3:54:43.760 --> 3:54:46.040 to unify the working class They only want to unify 3:54:46.080 --> 3:54:48.560 it if it's under their control. The erupt the eruption 3:54:48.640 --> 3:54:51.320 of you know, like actually the working class standing side 3:54:51.360 --> 3:54:54.440 by side together fighting the cops on barricades in twenty 3:54:54.480 --> 3:54:56.000 was the worst thing that could possibly happen to them, 3:54:56.360 --> 3:54:58.400 because you know, it pointed to another way of doing 3:54:58.440 --> 3:55:00.680 politics that they like in the in the street that 3:55:00.720 --> 3:55:02.960 they thought they'd you know, crushed after the feet of 3:55:03.000 --> 3:55:07.760 occupy and yeah, and you know, and they were, they were, 3:55:08.040 --> 3:55:09.760 they were incredibly scared by this. They were piste off 3:55:09.840 --> 3:55:14.720 by this. And you know, I I I mentioned last episode, 3:55:14.760 --> 3:55:16.000 I was going to talk about the sort of class 3:55:16.080 --> 3:55:20.280 politics that's at work here because you know, these demands 3:55:20.840 --> 3:55:24.480 for more cops, like they don't come from the working class, right, Like, 3:55:24.600 --> 3:55:27.000 in so far as there's ever been a referendum on 3:55:27.160 --> 3:55:31.280 the police as an institution, it was and you know, 3:55:31.760 --> 3:55:33.720 we know what that looked like, right, It was it 3:55:33.800 --> 3:55:36.800 was a bunch of working class kids went into the 3:55:36.840 --> 3:55:39.440 streets and you know and fought like lions against the 3:55:39.480 --> 3:55:42.440 fucking cops, and even the sort of liberal like the 3:55:42.560 --> 3:55:46.120 liberal middle and professional classes like eventually turned against them, 3:55:46.160 --> 3:55:49.800 you know, as as rolled on right, and you know, 3:55:50.600 --> 3:55:53.800 like those people still hung on for months and months 3:55:53.880 --> 3:55:56.600 and months, you know, like refusing to leave the streets 3:55:56.640 --> 3:55:59.280 even after the fucking federal marshal sort of literally assassinating 3:55:59.320 --> 3:56:02.960 people openly in the streets. Right, Like the whole demand 3:56:03.040 --> 3:56:05.360 from more cops for like a harsher crackdown on crime. 3:56:05.520 --> 3:56:07.920 All of this stuff comes from precisely the opposite direction. Right. 3:56:08.240 --> 3:56:11.720 It's entirely generated by the by the by by by 3:56:11.760 --> 3:56:14.280 basically the media class. Right. It's it's class based is 3:56:14.280 --> 3:56:17.360 a combination of these sort of like faux progressive like 3:56:17.520 --> 3:56:19.480 media outlets. And originally the starts with the New York 3:56:19.480 --> 3:56:21.720 Times and the Washington Post, and then moves left are 3:56:21.800 --> 3:56:25.200 nominally left right, and when it hits like the fucking 3:56:25.240 --> 3:56:28.800 T I T and all of their like bullshit right, 3:56:28.920 --> 3:56:31.560 and then you know, and and and then at that point, 3:56:31.680 --> 3:56:33.640 having having having went through the media people, right, it's 3:56:33.680 --> 3:56:36.080 it starts running through these pseudo ratical academics like Christopher 3:56:36.160 --> 3:56:38.960 Lewis and Autinario Sami and then the last group of 3:56:39.000 --> 3:56:41.680 people who are backing this this is a very weird one. 3:56:42.200 --> 3:56:47.200 But there's a collection of paid union staffers who like 3:56:47.320 --> 3:56:49.360 for their jobs because they're in the big union's work 3:56:49.440 --> 3:56:52.960 on police and prison guard contracts. Um, this this is 3:56:53.000 --> 3:56:54.400 actually this is this is this has been a huge 3:56:54.400 --> 3:57:00.560 problem the d s A in in In said one 3:57:00.600 --> 3:57:03.480 of the NC elections, they had um for the for 3:57:03.520 --> 3:57:05.240 the National Political Committee, which is the d s A 3:57:05.360 --> 3:57:09.000 is big major body, like governing body. Right. They they 3:57:09.040 --> 3:57:12.840 accident people accidentally elected a police union organizer because he 3:57:12.960 --> 3:57:14.320 was like they knew he was a union organized, but 3:57:14.360 --> 3:57:16.440 they didn't know that he organized police unions. And then 3:57:16.600 --> 3:57:19.840 he he fucking refeat like nothing, nothing was going to happen. 3:57:20.000 --> 3:57:22.120 And then basically what happened is everyone had left the 3:57:22.200 --> 3:57:26.200 organization bullied him out and so he resigned. But like, yeah, 3:57:26.240 --> 3:57:27.880 there's a lot of those people, right and those people's 3:57:27.920 --> 3:57:33.080 classes actives are incredibly obvious. Right, But didn't the a 3:57:33.240 --> 3:57:36.360 f l c I O even in like refused to 3:57:36.400 --> 3:57:40.080 reject police unions right there? But like, no, people, if 3:57:40.080 --> 3:57:41.880 I remember, if I remember, I think I think someone 3:57:41.960 --> 3:57:44.920 threw a malt off like into the headquarters the because 3:57:44.960 --> 3:57:47.320 of it, Like yeah, like this this this is the 3:57:47.360 --> 3:57:53.200 whole fucking thing, and you know, like this sucks. Cops 3:57:53.240 --> 3:57:57.720 are not fucking workers, Jesus Christ, Like they're they're just 3:57:57.960 --> 3:57:59.680 not if you if you look at what they actually do, 3:58:00.080 --> 3:58:04.320 they're they're they're like they're basically minor feudal lords in 3:58:04.480 --> 3:58:06.960 that they extract rent from everyone by fucking walking on 3:58:07.080 --> 3:58:10.040 people and robbing them. And then they also extract rent 3:58:10.080 --> 3:58:13.080 directly from us by staking, by stealing, just like enormous 3:58:13.120 --> 3:58:16.480 increasingly large amounts of city funds under basically the threat 3:58:16.480 --> 3:58:21.760 of extortion and violence. Yeah, little dames, Yeah, it's it's 3:58:22.000 --> 3:58:24.120 it's ship. I want to come back to the sort 3:58:24.160 --> 3:58:27.160 of left media outlets, right, because what we've been seeing 3:58:27.240 --> 3:58:29.160 here is that as as these lot of left media 3:58:29.200 --> 3:58:34.360 outlets get larger, right, they increasingly adopt like insane small 3:58:34.440 --> 3:58:37.440 business tyrant politics. Because that's that's the different coming right too. 3:58:37.520 --> 3:58:41.200 I t notoriously tried to bust its own union staff. Yeah, 3:58:41.840 --> 3:58:44.520 because it turns out as journalists become bosses and capitalists, 3:58:44.520 --> 3:58:45.920 they have they have their own classes just to look 3:58:45.920 --> 3:58:48.280 out for, right, Yeah, and they will continue producing this 3:58:48.440 --> 3:58:52.120 class discourse which serves as nothing other than like best 3:58:52.240 --> 3:58:55.440 like a safety sort of steam valve, right for people 3:58:55.480 --> 3:58:57.880 who are frustrated by the class situation they work in. 3:58:58.000 --> 3:59:01.480 If if not like an outright sort of disinformation campaign 3:59:01.520 --> 3:59:04.320 about what class is. Yeah, and you know, and and 3:59:04.520 --> 3:59:06.720 and there's I think there's another thing going on here too, 3:59:06.920 --> 3:59:10.120 which is that like, okay, if if you're like a 3:59:10.400 --> 3:59:12.680 sort of like media outlets and your things that you 3:59:12.760 --> 3:59:15.040 hate liberals and that you're on the left, right, there's 3:59:15.120 --> 3:59:19.280 there's kind of a cap to your audience base, and 3:59:19.320 --> 3:59:21.240 specifically as a cap that the kind of audience you 3:59:21.280 --> 3:59:23.520 can have that actually has money, because you know, you 3:59:23.760 --> 3:59:25.240 can you can get a broke base and sort of 3:59:25.280 --> 3:59:27.520 progressive workers, and you can get some college students, right, 3:59:28.080 --> 3:59:30.320 but at some point, like those those are not people 3:59:30.360 --> 3:59:32.840 that have a large amount of money. Yeah, And at 3:59:32.920 --> 3:59:36.400 some point the right offers a listener base that has 3:59:36.440 --> 3:59:39.240 a bunch of money, and this gives you a revenue 3:59:39.240 --> 3:59:41.440 base for sort of would be like media attack who's 3:59:41.480 --> 3:59:43.040 hitting the limits of their original base. And this is 3:59:43.080 --> 3:59:46.400 responsible for things like like Max Blue menhal and X 3:59:46.440 --> 3:59:48.600 like t I T Reporter Jimmy Door like descending it 3:59:48.720 --> 3:59:51.640 is just full on COVID nihilism and con I mean, 3:59:51.640 --> 3:59:52.960 you know, it's it's it's not like these people were 3:59:53.040 --> 3:59:55.520 like doing good before, but like, you know, full on 3:59:55.840 --> 3:59:59.840 right wing, like like Matt Max Bluementhal going from being 4:00:00.080 --> 4:00:02.000 the most pro CCP guy the world has ever seen 4:00:02.080 --> 4:00:04.440 to literally writing articles about how social credit is coming 4:00:04.440 --> 4:00:07.240 to the us UH in a form of commed restrictions 4:00:07.480 --> 4:00:10.840 like this kind of ship. And you know, so like 4:00:10.960 --> 4:00:13.000 that that's part of the class politics going on here. 4:00:13.280 --> 4:00:17.960 Like there's another thing, which is like, okay, there's the 4:00:18.000 --> 4:00:21.320 Harvard academics. I don't think we need to say anything 4:00:21.360 --> 4:00:23.960 complicated about their class loyalties except that, like, none of 4:00:24.000 --> 4:00:25.720 these dipships are ever be beaten half the death by 4:00:25.760 --> 4:00:29.200 a cop um. Yeah, I mean we talked about the 4:00:29.280 --> 4:00:33.720 union bureaucrats, right, Um, they're more complicated. But again, like 4:00:34.320 --> 4:00:36.440 in class terms, you get people who are either driven 4:00:36.520 --> 4:00:39.240 by purely by sort of the revenue that copying is 4:00:39.360 --> 4:00:41.640 bring in, and then you get people who are opposed 4:00:41.680 --> 4:00:44.040 to political organizations like the d s A taking firm 4:00:44.080 --> 4:00:46.600 stances against police union organizers because it would affect their 4:00:46.600 --> 4:00:49.320 own ability to win off like win elections inside the 4:00:49.440 --> 4:00:52.480 d s A, A thing that has happens so many times. 4:00:55.680 --> 4:00:58.920 It's great. It's it's very funny that they chose classes, 4:00:59.120 --> 4:01:03.040 and they chose like education level as their proxy for class. 4:01:03.280 --> 4:01:05.160 And we are discussing this in the same week that 4:01:05.280 --> 4:01:08.520 we release an episode about a grad student strike at 4:01:08.560 --> 4:01:11.960 the largest university in the country because grad students are 4:01:12.200 --> 4:01:14.840 unhoused because they can't afford to pay their rent and 4:01:15.000 --> 4:01:21.240 feed themselves. It is. It is a Trocias ship. Like, Okay, 4:01:21.800 --> 4:01:25.200 I need hate people. Um, yeah, So I want to 4:01:25.280 --> 4:01:29.520 close off by talking about something, which is that there's 4:01:29.520 --> 4:01:32.320 also a political angle to all of this. Right, these people, 4:01:32.560 --> 4:01:35.080 all of these people doing this fucking crime bullshit, all 4:01:35.120 --> 4:01:38.200 these people fucking going right, all of these people calculated 4:01:38.240 --> 4:01:40.440 that a right turn in American politics was coming. Right. 4:01:40.720 --> 4:01:43.640 That's why t Yet endorse a fucking literally a Republican 4:01:43.680 --> 4:01:46.880 in California who was also an insane, tough on crime guy. 4:01:47.320 --> 4:01:52.840 This is why. That's why they had no Noso Caruso. 4:01:52.920 --> 4:01:54.960 Yeaho was a Republican who changed his party affiliations. We 4:01:55.000 --> 4:01:58.240 could run the Democratic thing. Who fucking sucks, asked, That's 4:01:58.240 --> 4:02:01.720 why theyre that, That's why they had Matt quote alleged 4:02:01.800 --> 4:02:05.720 pedophile Gates on their show on election night, Larry Elder 4:02:05.800 --> 4:02:08.960 on this show as well, like election denialist Larry Elder. Yeah, 4:02:09.200 --> 4:02:11.680 like this this wasn't just a pure product of these 4:02:11.720 --> 4:02:14.920 people going insane watching videos of like people looting grocery 4:02:14.960 --> 4:02:17.400 stores and turn to get tough on crime. Reactionaries. This 4:02:17.560 --> 4:02:22.680 was the political calculation and stuff. But yeah, but but 4:02:22.800 --> 4:02:25.800 but they sucked up. Right, These people fundamentally don't understand 4:02:25.920 --> 4:02:28.680 what this country is. They're scared, they've given up. They 4:02:28.680 --> 4:02:30.400 saw a single homeless person on the street and turn 4:02:30.440 --> 4:02:32.720 into a fascist. And they think that the American people 4:02:32.760 --> 4:02:34.600 are just hopeless, the reactionary and the only thing that's 4:02:34.640 --> 4:02:36.720 left to do is solve the situation by selling out. 4:02:37.160 --> 4:02:40.920 And they're smart. They don't think. They don't credit people 4:02:41.000 --> 4:02:43.760 with having like compassion or empathy or intelligence either. Right, 4:02:44.320 --> 4:02:46.760 they think they would go the direction their stupid grift 4:02:46.840 --> 4:02:50.480 show points. Yeah, and and they're wrong. They're incredibly wrong. 4:02:51.040 --> 4:02:52.720 This is a country that, in the name of fighting 4:02:52.840 --> 4:02:55.280 racism and the police, in the name of solidarity with 4:02:55.360 --> 4:02:57.400 people who are not their fucking seals, people who they 4:02:57.440 --> 4:03:00.120 will literally never beat, put on a mass picked up 4:03:00.120 --> 4:03:02.480 a brick and waged war against the best funded police 4:03:02.520 --> 4:03:04.800 force in human history. And for like a week and 4:03:04.880 --> 4:03:08.360 a half, those same fucking Americans who the entire political 4:03:08.400 --> 4:03:11.280 spectrum had written office hopelessly beaten down and passive and 4:03:11.440 --> 4:03:13.800 right wing and like people people who will take any 4:03:13.840 --> 4:03:16.320 amount of abuse and never is anything back wrecked. The 4:03:16.520 --> 4:03:20.240 fucking wrecked. The cops shit so hard they lost control 4:03:20.320 --> 4:03:22.960 over the centers, have made multiple major American cities and 4:03:23.080 --> 4:03:25.320 had to call in the fucking National Guard, who in 4:03:25.520 --> 4:03:27.920 turn got their ship wrecked so hard that they had 4:03:27.960 --> 4:03:29.880 to rely on liberal civil society to call him the 4:03:29.920 --> 4:03:33.320 protest down. And even then, the President would have fucking 4:03:33.400 --> 4:03:35.640 deployed the army against them if he had actually been 4:03:35.680 --> 4:03:38.320 physically able to. And the old reason that these people 4:03:38.400 --> 4:03:41.480 weren't fighting the fucking army in the streets was that 4:03:42.080 --> 4:03:44.320 was that the fucking American generals refused to go along 4:03:44.360 --> 4:03:46.560 with it. Right like that, that is who the U 4:03:46.760 --> 4:03:48.720 s is that that that is whose generation is. This 4:03:48.800 --> 4:03:51.920 generation is forever the generation that burned the Third Precinct, 4:03:52.240 --> 4:03:54.480 and the fucking X left is running right. Just don't 4:03:54.600 --> 4:03:57.400 fucking get it right. They think the entire clock has 4:03:57.440 --> 4:03:59.680 been brown back. They think that like those that, like 4:03:59.800 --> 4:04:01.640 the of people who did that, I've already been destroyed. 4:04:01.640 --> 4:04:03.640 They don't matter. The only thing left, you know that 4:04:03.720 --> 4:04:05.480 you can do is join them right and mitigate the damage. 4:04:05.520 --> 4:04:08.680 And they're fucking wrong. They are wrong. They can't see it. 4:04:08.800 --> 4:04:11.440 They cannot see that there was no way to turn 4:04:11.480 --> 4:04:14.080 the clock back to before the uprising happened. They can't 4:04:14.120 --> 4:04:16.440 see that, like this entire country, that the that the 4:04:16.480 --> 4:04:18.440 American working class, that parts of the people who are 4:04:18.480 --> 4:04:21.440 not part of the American working class have been fundamentally changed. 4:04:22.760 --> 4:04:26.200 And yeah, they just they just can't see it. And 4:04:26.280 --> 4:04:28.400 because they can't see it, the only thing that they're 4:04:28.440 --> 4:04:31.120 ever going to feel is the way that there is. 4:04:31.120 --> 4:04:32.360 The only thing they can feel is the way of 4:04:32.360 --> 4:04:33.960 their ignorance. And the only thing they're going to feel 4:04:33.960 --> 4:04:36.840 on top of that is them getting fucking buried by 4:04:36.840 --> 4:04:38.440 the weight of the history that has left them behind. 4:04:38.600 --> 4:04:41.680 Because fun, these people, fuck the cops. Fun the people 4:04:41.720 --> 4:04:43.480 who support the cops. These people will be down, but 4:04:43.600 --> 4:04:45.560 will be fucking drowned by the tide of history they 4:04:45.600 --> 4:04:50.280 thought didn't fucking exist. Fuck them. Okay, this is what Yeah, 4:04:50.680 --> 4:04:52.680 you can probably tell I wrote this really really piste 4:04:52.680 --> 4:04:55.360 off at five in the fucking morning, because Jesus Christ, 4:05:01.080 --> 4:05:04.600 that's good. Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. Pick up 4:05:04.640 --> 4:05:09.160 a brick, put down the young Turks. Yeah, don't fucking 4:05:09.160 --> 4:05:13.240 support more cops. Every every everyone will hate you. Your 4:05:13.280 --> 4:05:15.640 coworkers will hate you, your friends will hit you, your 4:05:15.680 --> 4:05:17.800 family will hit you. The guy, the guy at the 4:05:17.880 --> 4:05:22.040 fucking quarter store will hate you. Yeah. And if you 4:05:22.200 --> 4:05:26.360 find your fucking left hero standing the people who murdered 4:05:26.400 --> 4:05:29.120 George Floyd or stood around and watch George Floyd being murdered, 4:05:29.200 --> 4:05:31.840 then they are not a leftist anymore. And it's okay 4:05:31.920 --> 4:05:34.040 to tell them to fuck off and die. Yeah, And 4:05:34.080 --> 4:05:35.480 I mean, like, and we can go back to this 4:05:35.520 --> 4:05:38.400 our first episode, right, Like, the reason these people are 4:05:38.440 --> 4:05:41.400 calling for five more cops is that they've given up entirely, right, 4:05:41.440 --> 4:05:44.680 They literally do not think it is possible for anything 4:05:44.760 --> 4:05:47.520 to ever improve in the US, And then well they 4:05:47.600 --> 4:05:51.200 are wrong. Yeah, And I think that they're okay with 4:05:51.720 --> 4:05:54.600 the way that our police behave and there if that 4:05:54.720 --> 4:05:57.440 makes him feel comfortable and safe, then they don't mind 4:05:58.360 --> 4:06:00.520 people die at the hands in the police. Cops protect 4:06:00.600 --> 4:06:03.240 rich people. These people have gotten wealthy enough to have 4:06:03.400 --> 4:06:06.960 the cops now benefit them. It's it's that simple, Like, 4:06:07.080 --> 4:06:09.480 that's that, that's it's it's it's I think that really 4:06:09.600 --> 4:06:15.840 is the yeah, trying motivator here. Yeah, And like I 4:06:15.880 --> 4:06:17.920 will say this to like, if we ever get to 4:06:18.000 --> 4:06:20.280 a point where we start sucking doing this, like take 4:06:20.400 --> 4:06:23.160 us down to this. This is this isn't just a 4:06:23.240 --> 4:06:24.960 sort of like we're trying to build our business whatever. 4:06:25.000 --> 4:06:27.240 I don't like, I don't fucking care. I would I 4:06:27.320 --> 4:06:30.080 would rather fucking go broke in the streets. I would 4:06:30.160 --> 4:06:32.720 rather fucking die than be a person whose job it 4:06:32.840 --> 4:06:41.760 is to say we need more cops. Fuck these people. God, yeah, 4:06:42.400 --> 4:06:44.240 m m. They've plumped me on Twitter, so I can't 4:06:44.280 --> 4:06:51.880 say get off to him podcast fans. God, we are 4:06:52.200 --> 4:06:57.160 not insigning harassment campaign instead nowhere other things. Yeah, I 4:06:57.240 --> 4:06:59.560 don't waste Yeah, I know seriousness. Don't waste your time 4:06:59.600 --> 4:07:02.200 doing this course with people who exist to create bullshit 4:07:02.320 --> 4:07:05.240 discourse said, just a distraction. Go and help someone needs 4:07:05.280 --> 4:07:08.640 your help. It's called it's wet, it's wintertime and everyone 4:07:08.680 --> 4:07:10.720 the house, people who are shivering on the streets. So 4:07:10.880 --> 4:07:14.200 don't funk with the young talk. Just ignore them. Point 4:07:14.240 --> 4:07:17.960 to say, go go, go, go out there and fucking 4:07:18.040 --> 4:07:20.760 build the socialism that these people think is impossible, because 4:07:20.960 --> 4:07:24.040 we can do it, and we will, and then we 4:07:24.080 --> 4:07:27.280 will laugh at them because we've done it and they 4:07:27.640 --> 4:07:36.840 are fucking bullshit. Yeah, that's that's the episode. Hey, we'll 4:07:36.840 --> 4:07:39.920 be back Monday, with more episodes every week from now 4:07:40.040 --> 4:07:42.640 until the heat death of the universe. It Could Happen 4:07:42.680 --> 4:07:45.000 Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more 4:07:45.040 --> 4:07:47.800 podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone 4:07:47.840 --> 4:07:49.680 media dot com, or check us out on the I 4:07:49.800 --> 4:07:53.040 Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 4:07:53.480 --> 4:07:55.560 You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 4:07:55.640 --> 4:07:59.120 monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks 4:07:59.160 --> 4:07:59.640 for listening.