1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 2 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 2: Welcome to a special edition of the Wall Street Week podcast. 3 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 2: I'm David weston President Trump's epic battle with some of 4 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 2: America's most prestigious universities has been a long time in 5 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 2: the making, like over two hundred years in the making, 6 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 2: and it all started on the other side of the Atlantic. 7 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 2: America's move to merge scholarship with scientific research was inspired 8 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 2: by Humboldt University in then Prussian Berlin at the beginning 9 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 2: of the nineteenth century. A Yale graduate named Daniel koit 10 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 2: Gilman saw for himself the possibilities when he traveled to 11 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 2: Berlin in the eighteen fifties on a European tour. It 12 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 2: took him a while to start something similar in the 13 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 2: United States, but he finally got his chance when he 14 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 2: was tapped to be the founding president of a new 15 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: college in Baltimore in eighteen seventy six, making JOHNS. Hopkins, 16 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 2: the alma mater of our company founder and majority owner 17 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 2: Michael Bloomberg, the first true American research university. Over time, 18 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 2: others followed suit, with MIT taking the idea in a 19 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 2: somewhat different direction for what it called applied research in 20 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: the early nineteen hundreds, funded not by the wealth of 21 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 2: a private donor like mister JOHNS. Hopkins, but by some 22 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: of the large corporations of the day, such as General 23 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 2: Electric and AT and T. It wasn't until World War 24 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 2: II that the federal government really got involved. Then along 25 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 2: came fdr who reached out to the universities to help 26 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 2: him win the war. Roosevelt put the dean of MIT's 27 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 2: Engineering school, vanavar Bush, in charge of the effort. That 28 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 2: partnership gave the world innovations like radar and the atomic 29 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 2: bomb that did just what the President had envisioned. It 30 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 2: helped determine who won the war. Having seen what the 31 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 2: government academia team could do together, vanovar Bush developed a 32 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 2: post war plan for ongoing federal government funding of university research, 33 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 2: and what began as two hundred fifty three million dollars 34 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 2: in grants in nineteen fifty three turned into some sixty 35 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 2: billion dollars as of twenty twenty three. Leon Botstein has 36 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 2: more perspective than most on the history of academia's relationship 37 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 2: with the government and what's at stake for the United 38 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,839 Speaker 2: States and the world. The son of Polish Jewish physicists 39 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 2: who fled the Nazis. He was born in Zurich and 40 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 2: immigrated to the United States at the age of two. 41 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 2: After studying both history and music, he went on to 42 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 2: become the youngest college president in US history at the 43 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 2: tender age of twenty three. Five years later, in nineteen 44 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 2: seventy five, he was named president of Bard, a position 45 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 2: he has held for fifty years. So who better to 46 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 2: ask about the state of American universities today in light 47 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 2: of the challenges? So give us your assessment of the 48 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: relationship between the federal government the United States and universities 49 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 2: and colleges right now, well. 50 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 3: Right now, it's in a kind of disintegration mode. The 51 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 3: pattern which has been that the university and the government 52 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 3: have collaborated on research agendas. It was really reached a 53 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 3: high point of during the Sputnik and the space exploration age, 54 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 3: but it has a long history dating back to the 55 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 3: Manhattan Project to the making of the atomic bomb. The 56 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 3: mating of the atomic bomb was the decisive historic event. 57 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 3: America could not have done it without the universities, and 58 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 3: the universities could. 59 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: Not have done it without the government. 60 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:05,279 Speaker 3: It was a collaboration which ended tragically but also brilliantly 61 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 3: and brought in the atomic age. And since then America 62 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 3: has been the premiere place for higher education for two reasons. One, 63 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 3: it has the most imaginative and open and free environment 64 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 3: for research. There's a lot of academic freedom, and there's 65 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 3: no hierarchy. There's no top professor telling the young professor 66 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 3: what to do in the sciences, quite as there is 67 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 3: in the old European tradition, which has been imitated both 68 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 3: by the Russians and by the Chinese. And there isn't 69 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 3: a constraint. And also new departments can be created, new 70 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 3: fields can be created. There's a lot of flexibility in 71 00:04:55,640 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 3: problem solving, which has placed American science in the fore front. 72 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 3: And with the forefront of American science comes its dominance 73 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 3: in technology and in economics. So you have a collaboration 74 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 3: which has worked wonderfully. For reasons that I do not understand, 75 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 3: the Trumpet administration has decided to break this up. To 76 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 3: unravel this. The claim is that the universities are woke. Well, 77 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 3: universities have always had majority opinions. You know, the universities 78 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 3: were in the forefront of the America first movement which 79 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 3: opposed America's entrance in World War Two. Every generation has 80 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 3: had its political incarnation on the university. But the point 81 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 3: is that this claim of wokeness is widely exaggerated. And furthermore, 82 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 3: there is the illusion that the real problem here is 83 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 3: the failure to protect the Jewish students and Jewish staff 84 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 3: and faculty. I'm a Jew and active member of the 85 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 3: Jewish community, and I think this is also wildly exaggerated, 86 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 3: and anti Semitism has been part of American culture. It's 87 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 3: been part of university culture. However, the university has been 88 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 3: the most open and responsive to the aspirations of the 89 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 3: Jewish community. The idea that the university's anti semitic is 90 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 3: ironic and not actually true. So for reasons that are political, 91 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 3: there is a destructive intent to demolish what has been 92 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 3: for decades America's signal competitive edge throughout the world. 93 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 2: When we talk about colleges and university of the United States, 94 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 2: the country is blessed with a wide range of institutions. 95 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 2: Are the challenges you identify right now across the board? 96 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 2: Are they more targeted on what I would call the 97 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: elite institutions? 98 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 3: Well, they're not at elite institutions. They are at the 99 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 3: research one universities. 100 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: So you're right. 101 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 3: America has a kind of patchwork quilt of many different 102 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 3: kinds of institutions, much more varied than other developed societies 103 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 3: in the West particularly, and so you have public research 104 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 3: universities as well as private research universities. Then you have 105 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 3: smaller universities that aren't quite as research heavy, and then 106 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 3: you have purely undergraduate institutions. Then you have community colleges. 107 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 3: So you have a really wide variety of institutions that 108 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 3: serve different constituencies. There's one that these institutions all have 109 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 3: in common. America suffers from an antiquated financing. 110 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: Scheme for its universities. 111 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 3: Our great public university system was really created during the 112 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 3: presidency of Lincoln with the Moral Act and the creation 113 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 3: of the Great State Universities. After all, the majority of 114 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:23,239 Speaker 3: Americans go to public institutions, not private institutions. We always 115 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:28,239 Speaker 3: talk about Harvard, Yale, Princeton, but they're not the real 116 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 3: place where Americans get educated. They get educated in public institutions, 117 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 3: many of which are terrific, and the state universities in 118 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 3: the Midwest and in the South and the West. Our 119 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 3: first class places. I don't know why both the public 120 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 3: and the news media and now the White House has 121 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 3: an obsession with these marginal in a way, statistically institutions, 122 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 3: the whole issue about admissions and discrimination applies to a 123 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 3: handful of institutions. Most of us are in the business 124 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 3: of recruiting students, of welcoming students to us, not selecting, 125 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 3: not making a cut. We're not a sort of a 126 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 3: World Series baseball team. There are a couple of teams 127 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 3: that are in that kind of world, but most institutions 128 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 3: are not. And the best of our students in this 129 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 3: country don't necessarily go to these elite institutions. There's a 130 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,439 Speaker 3: myth that somehow your career will be better if you 131 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 3: go to one of these institutions. 132 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: That isn't the case. 133 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 3: And so it is an odd situation in which there 134 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 3: is an unnatural focus on a very small portion of institutions. However, 135 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 3: they reflect a problem that affects all research universities. The 136 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 3: cutting of overhead, the dismantling of everything from USAID to 137 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 3: cutting the funding for medical research, and generally the cutting 138 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:12,839 Speaker 3: of funds to bring graduate students and postdocs. America has 139 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 3: been a net importer It also ties in with this 140 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 3: anti immigrant policy, which is completely ridiculous. Factually, without the 141 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 3: great immigration from Europe in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties, 142 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 3: America would not have emerged after the Second World War 143 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 3: as a leader in the world in higher education. We 144 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 3: owe our greatness to the migration of scholars and scientists 145 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 3: and engineers who came to this country fleeing oppression. 146 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: Now we are. 147 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 3: Flirting with autocracy, the very thing that great scientists and 148 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 3: scholars fled. It's a reversal of roles, and. 149 00:10:57,559 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: So it is. 150 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 3: It's a problem that involves every institution because it is 151 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 3: fundamentally about censorship and freedom. What the government is doing 152 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 3: is using money, which as a weapon. And you know, 153 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 3: scientific research, learning, universities, libraries can exist without support. 154 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: It's impossible. You know. 155 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 3: We think of Harvard as a very rich university, the richest, 156 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 3: so it has some endowment that's larger than fifty billion. 157 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 3: But you and I can name several individuals who've earned 158 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 3: a wealth level more than fifty billion in less than 159 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 3: twenty years. And that university has been around since sixteen 160 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 3: thirty six. Who says it's rich. Now they're responsible for 161 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 3: their own arrogance of saying they're rich. 162 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: They're not rich. 163 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 3: They can survive as a research university without the collaboration 164 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 3: of the government. 165 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: They may be a private. 166 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 3: Institution dependent on the government. Then you take a public university, 167 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 3: which isn't always public. Berkeley is very very dependent on 168 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 3: private support, so as the University of Michigan, but their 169 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 3: state institutions and the state built their facilities by and large, 170 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 3: so they too are very dependent on the public. So 171 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:26,319 Speaker 3: that financial relationship has always come with a respect for 172 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 3: their freedom and independence. What do they do their research on? 173 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 3: What kind of problems? Now, certainly the government's interest in 174 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 3: practical results, whether it's vaccines, new technology, no faster computing, chips, 175 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 3: all that, all the things we talk about in the 176 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 3: modern world AI, it's all university dependent. Without the world 177 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 3: of university, we wouldn't be where we are now. Why 178 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 3: a president and a government wants to destroy that is 179 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 3: apsolutely unclear to me, especially under the slogan of making 180 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 3: America great again. If America was and is great, one 181 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 3: of the sources of one of the sources of its 182 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 3: greatness is its university system, its knowledge production, and the 183 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 3: connection to the economy. The universities have done a terrible 184 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 3: job in talking to the general public. They haven't made 185 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 3: their case clear. 186 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 1: The people who. 187 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 3: Live in the Boston area or the New York area 188 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 3: will think, well, Columbia is an elite place. Well, a 189 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:42,319 Speaker 3: high portion of the quality of their medical care derives 190 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 3: from those universities. The public doesn't really quite realize that, 191 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 3: God forbid, they should have a terrible illness, God forbid 192 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,199 Speaker 3: they should be an accident. Where is the best place 193 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 3: for them to be treated in great university hospitals. Where 194 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 3: do the great university hospitals get all their talknology, all 195 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 3: their drugs or their diagnostic equipment, equipment, the MRI, the 196 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 3: cat scans, all from the research labs of universities. But 197 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 3: these institutions have believe. 198 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: Their own rhetoric. You know, they've. 199 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 3: Drunk their own kool aid. You know, they smelled their 200 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 3: own perfume. You know, they they said we're rich, we're 201 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 3: in vulnerable, you know we you know, we're independent, when 202 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 3: in fact they're dependent. Now, the liberal arts colleges, the 203 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 3: cond of intitution that I am responsible for, are not 204 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 3: research heavy, so we're not as impacted by the current 205 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 3: attack on funding. But the federal government's crucial to financial aid. 206 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 3: All of our universities, public and private, are hampered by 207 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 3: an antiquated system of financing. The in state tuitions of 208 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 3: state universities are too high, much too high for country 209 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 3: of our wealth. This is not a welfare giveaway. The 210 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 3: more education you have, the more you earn, and that 211 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 3: term returns in tax revenue. 212 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: The fact is we. 213 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 3: Push the cost of our education on the consumer, and 214 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 3: that is completely irrational. It's an investment in the country, 215 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 3: it's an investment in our own people, and that investment 216 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 3: pays off. So it is simply a problem for all 217 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 3: of us because if the attack continues, it'll turn to 218 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 3: squeezing out the financial aid options which aren't strong enough, 219 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 3: the loan options, loan forgiveness options. And then we come 220 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 3: back to the immigration question. Much of our graduate infrastructure 221 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 3: and science is based on students from abroad, students who 222 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 3: come to get their PhDs in chemist, through biology, physics, 223 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 3: information science from abroad. We don't produce enough of our 224 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 3: own scientists through our own educational system, and the university 225 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 3: has bear some responsibility for that. They've sort of given 226 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 3: that task off to schools of education. But the physicists 227 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 3: of America, the chemists of America, the biologists of America, 228 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 3: are not training high school teachers and middle school teachers 229 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 3: and elementary school teachers. So through the pipeline of our schools, 230 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 3: we don't produce enough students with the determination and hard 231 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 3: work that's required to make a career in science and 232 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 3: technology and biomedical sciences. 233 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 2: You mentioned that the federal government right now is using money, 234 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 2: as I think you said, a weapon we call a 235 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 2: weapon or a leaver, whichever you want to call it. 236 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 2: Have the universities to some extent given some of that 237 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 2: leverage to the government by being too dependent upon federal funds. 238 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good question. 239 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 3: I'm not sure that there's an alternative. 240 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: The scale of research. 241 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 3: Requires that you get the money from a large source. 242 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 3: Now the large sources are the government the other companies. Now, 243 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 3: it's a very very delicate issue about having let's say, 244 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 3: big pharma or big industrials fund research. They have Historically, 245 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 3: chemical companies are all kinds of companies have invested in 246 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 3: research that's related to their business, and that can be good, 247 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 3: but it can also be corrupting. The tobacco industry, for example, 248 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 3: in its beginning of its fight against the argument that 249 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 3: smoking is related to cancer. Was willing to fund research 250 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 3: where they already expected a certain kind of out come, 251 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 3: and that's not good. So one has to be very 252 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 3: careful about the industry research relationship. 253 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 1: The third are private individuals. 254 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 3: And although we have the most unbelievable inequality of wealth, 255 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 3: and we have a fantastic number of very rich people, billionaires, 256 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 3: not all of them are philanthropic, and we're very grateful 257 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 3: for the few that are. But you can't rely to 258 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 3: fund this on individuals. On private philanthropy, you need large 259 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 3: sums of money, and the only two sources are, to 260 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 3: some extent, industry and the other is the public sector 261 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 3: taxpayer support. And taxpayer support is justified because, as I 262 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 3: said earlier, it returns to the wealth of the nation, 263 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 3: the taxable wealth of the nation. Education is crucial, crucial 264 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 3: now to economy. There is no We are in a 265 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 3: knowledge economy century. 266 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 2: From your perspective, which includes a remarkable experience leading a 267 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 2: distinguished university. Where does this go? It's impossible to know. 268 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 2: But as you look at what do you think the 269 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 2: future path is? 270 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 3: I think the future path is to persuade the public 271 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 3: and also are elected officials that supporting universities and high 272 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 3: education is in the nation's interest. If you're a patriot, 273 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 3: which i am. I'm an immigrant. This country gave me 274 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 3: and my family, my parents and my siblings, an opportunity 275 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 3: they could not find anywhere else in the world. So 276 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 3: there's a deep loyalty to what this country represents. It's 277 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 3: represented by the Statue of Liberty, It's represented by the Constitution, 278 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 3: It's represented by its long history of welcoming refugees and 279 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 3: people seeking freedom. So it seems to me that you 280 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 3: need to persuade the public and the elected officials that 281 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 3: this is not the place for partisan politics. This is 282 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 3: not the place to fight cultural wars. Cultural wars have 283 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 3: always existed. It's like fashion, you know, big shoulders on 284 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 3: your suits and narrow shoulders on your suits. It is 285 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 3: always the case that universities have young people, and young 286 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 3: people are fiery, and they're committed to ideas. They're not 287 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 3: always right, and they're not always as capable of seeing 288 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 3: the gray, the ambiguous, the complexities, and you have to 289 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 3: have patience. And we're not in the pun business when 290 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 3: they're teaching business. So, whether it's the Vietnam protests, or 291 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 3: it's protests about any public issue, the environment, civil rights, 292 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 3: whatever you want. The fact is that the energy of 293 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 3: young people is an opportunity to teach. And this has 294 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 3: been wildly politicized, and I think the universities have been 295 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 3: lax in providing leadership. But you have to remember that 296 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 3: universities have become giant corporations and they need corporate leaders. 297 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 3: And how do we define corporate leaders people who don't 298 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 3: have opinions of their own, but say yes to everyone 299 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 3: in a little different way and engage in compromise. The 300 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 3: truth isn't always in compromise. The truth isn't always in 301 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 3: yes you're right, Yes you're right, Yes you're right, and 302 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 3: creating some kind of bland soup out of a variety 303 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 3: of opinions. It's about striking out and showing leadership. And 304 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 3: in order to become a university or college president, you 305 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 3: have to demonstrate throughout your career your willingness to abandon 306 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 3: any principle you might have held, because if you actually 307 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 3: compete for the job with real opinions, you won't get it. 308 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 3: So we have a lot of managers, and we don't 309 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 3: need managers. We need leaders. And those leaders are hard 310 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 3: to find because in the current Internet environment, a university 311 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 3: or college president is a semi public person, and it 312 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 3: is unimaginable the vitriolic, hostile environment that the Internet creates 313 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 3: for any public official. The sad thing about the Internet, 314 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 3: which is a great advance, is that it's unleashed the 315 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 3: darkest side of human nature. People will write things, send 316 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 3: you things, use the language they would never use in person, 317 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 3: they would never use even on the telephone. So there's 318 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 3: a kind of isolation which creates a kind of road 319 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 3: rage that gets funneled into the Internet. And that's what 320 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 3: you're overwhelmed with, and people are frightened by it. And 321 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 3: if you speak out, you'll get ten times what you 322 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 3: said in hate mail. No matter what you say has 323 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 3: nothing to do with the substance of it. 324 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: So who wants this job? 325 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 3: We complain how poor our politicians are. I mean the idea, 326 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 3: this is not a criticism that a man of business 327 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 3: without any public experience, without an education that really fits 328 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 3: to lead a complex, without a long history of public services. 329 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 3: The president of the United States is an indication of 330 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 3: how few very good people want the job. And the 331 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:19,959 Speaker 3: job is decreasingly attractive, and you know, if you're a 332 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 3: judge and now you have to make a decision on 333 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,959 Speaker 3: some executive order from the president, and you act against 334 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 3: the president, you're a target. And one person with a 335 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 3: family with some measure of sanity wants to put themselves 336 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 3: in the line of fire. So we are eroding democracy 337 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 3: by diminishing the attraction. 338 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: Of public service as a career. So the fact is. 339 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 3: That the university needs more leadership, and leadership that is 340 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 3: print and it seems to me that the people that 341 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 3: choose the president, which is not only the governing board 342 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 3: but the faculty, have to be more willing to take 343 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 3: risks in finding leaders that stand for something. What I 344 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 3: believe they should stand for is excellence and research, freedom 345 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,200 Speaker 3: of inquiry, and respect for every individual. When we give 346 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 3: a diploma, every university, every college in the country, what's 347 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 3: on that diploma just your name, nothing about your identity. 348 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 3: You're not a member of a group. You're just John Smith, 349 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 3: Jane Smith. You're an individual, that unique person that you are. 350 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 3: That's your degree, that's your accomplishment. We don't teach groups. 351 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 3: We teach individuals, and we need to treat all of 352 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 3: them fairly. That's why the old days in the movies. 353 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 3: You see people in universities with gowns. Why were their 354 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 3: gowns to camouflage their origins, their mode of dress. Everybody 355 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 3: was a learner, even the faculty. So that ideal of 356 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 3: a place where the individual is treated as an individual, 357 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 3: but not as a representative of some political group, some 358 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 3: ethnic group, some way we segregate ourselves from another. That 359 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,639 Speaker 3: ideal of university is what has to be defended quality 360 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 3: of teaching, quality of research, and that has to be 361 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,199 Speaker 3: supported by the government, not eroded by the government, not 362 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 3: co opted by the government. And one of the things 363 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:52,199 Speaker 3: that history teaches us is when autocrats take control of 364 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:56,719 Speaker 3: universities and dictate who should teach there, what they should teach, 365 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 3: what curriculum is allowed, what is not allowed, the quality 366 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 3: of the work of the scholarship goes down. This kind 367 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 3: of autocratic intervention spells the death of American excellence in the. 368 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 2: University that does it for us. Here at Wall Street Week, 369 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 2: I'm David Weston. See you next week for more stories 370 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 2: of capitalism.