WEBVTT - The One Ring 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:08.760 H three rings for Elvin King's Under the Sky, seven 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:12.160 for the dwarf lords in their halls of Stone, nine 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:15.600 for mortal men doomed to die, and one for the 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:19.320 Dark Lord on his dark throne in the Land of Mordor, 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:22.880 where the shadows lie. One ring to rule them all, 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:27.320 wondering to find them, one ring to bring them all, 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:31.800 and in the darkness bind them in the Land of Mordor, 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:40.040 where the Shadows lie. Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:49.120 a production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:51.080 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:54.200 Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick and nerd Alert. We're 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:58.240 doing a Tolkien episode today. That's right, of course. The 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:01.760 cold open there was from J. R. Tolkien's The Lord 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.520 of the Rings, which was written in stages between ninety 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:08.319 seven and nineteen forty nine. I imagine everyone listening to 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:11.920 this is familiar with the Lord of the Rings. Uh, yeah, 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:13.640 pretty much. I mean we we'll try to make it 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:16.400 fun even if you're not. But yeah, Robert, you got 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:18.880 bit by the Lord of the Rings bug this week apparently, 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.360 and you wanted to talk about the One Ring of Power. 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:23.000 See if there's any way we could give it the 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:25.200 stuff to blow your mind treatment. Yeah, yeah, I've been 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:27.839 thinking a lot about Tolkien recently, I mean until obviously. 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:30.400 You know, I read Tolkien when I was younger. I 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:32.160 watched the movies when they came out, I watched the 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:36.120 animated films when when they were around, and uh, and 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:38.160 then I kind of took a break, and then I 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.000 came back and read The Hobbit to my son. Eventually, 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:42.800 I hope to read The Lord of the Rings to him. 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:47.000 Uh wait, when did the classic quote? You were reading 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:49.040 it to him at some point, weren't you when he said, 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:51.040 is it the Lord of the Rings yet? Yeah? Yeah, 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:53.160 he kind of got a little bored with the opening, 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:55.520 but at this point, like he's, yeah, he's super into 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:57.360 Harry Potter. I think he's pretty much ready for the 0:01:57.400 --> 0:01:59.640 Lord of the Rings. But you know, the Hobbit is 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:02.440 better for younger readers as well. But it got me 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:06.040 thinking a lot about the Ring. Uh. And it's it's nature, 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:09.840 it's powers, and and also it is the task of 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:14.840 applying real world science to the One Ring and seeing 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:17.600 what we could potentially figure out. It'll have to be 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:19.960 a little bit of loosey goosey real world science. But 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.880 we'll do our best because obviously the one ring, the 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:28.560 Ring of Power, is an object of intense magical power 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:32.080 in the books, created by an intensely magical being in 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:36.639 an intensely magical fantasy world. And so our intent here 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.480 is not to you know, to cheapen all of that 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:42.840 or anything, or to or to myth busted or anything 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:45.600 like that, but you know, just to engage in the 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:47.840 fun exercise of saying, okay, okay, if if we had 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:51.120 to make this work with science, what would the ring 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:53.000 be made out of? What are the the you know, 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:55.480 what are the constraints involved that sort of thing. Now, 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:57.520 the Ring of Power in Lord of the Rings has 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:00.560 got to be one of the like ultimate ex examples 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:04.400 of a fantasy mcguffin. You know, an object that that 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:07.040 a plot can be built around that. There are a 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:08.920 lot of these story you end up with, like you know, 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:12.520 Wore Cruxes and Harry Potter and uh, there's very often 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:15.240 it's just convenient from a storytelling perspective to have a 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:19.280 magical object that must be uh, that must be managed, 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.800 and the logistics of which become the struggle for the 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.160 characters in the story. But the ring I think also 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:28.240 represents more than that. It's an interesting object in itself 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:32.080 because of its properties that to some people who own 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:35.320 it or where it, it confers these powers. And we 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:37.880 can discuss what the powers are alluded to be in 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.800 the story, uh in a minute. But also it has 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:43.200 this corrupting influence. So it actually I think does have 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.440 a kind of thematic commentary on the way that like 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:51.240 possessing great power has the tendency to corrupt people's motives 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:54.240 and way of seeing the world. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:57.480 even even today, like certainly throughout human history, we can 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:00.840 look to the like the symbolic power of the um 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:05.920 like rings are used to to signify, you know, bonds 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:10.440 that have been made, social bonds, marriages, uh. They they 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:16.479 have long symbolized power or or wealth. The seal ring 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:18.800 that might be used as a stamp in wax to 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.719 show you the sigil of your authority. Right now, of course, 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:24.280 there's the super Bowl ring, right which and I mean 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:26.680 really it is as silly as the super Bowl ring 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:28.760 may be, it is it is you know, it is 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:31.760 drawing from this lineage of the ring as the symbol 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:34.840 of of power and accomplishment. And so yeah, I mean 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:36.720 all that's wrapped up in the myth of the Ring 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:38.760 as well, you know, not even to get into some 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:43.000 of the various things that Tolkien was drawing on, you know, 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:46.240 the Ring cycle of etcetera. Another token note I want 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:48.120 to make is I do want to drive home. Even 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:50.560 though Joe and I are both uh, you know, quite 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:54.520 familiar with token, neither of us are like Tolken experts. 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:57.839 Please don't come swinging your sword at us because we 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:02.560 left out some Tolkien d right, I mean it's happened before. Uh. 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:05.440 And and likewise we may not hit all the Tolkien 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:09.960 pronunciations in this. Uh, I can't wait, But but we're 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:12.240 gonna give it a shot. So first of all, let 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:15.200 me just run through the history of the One Ring 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:17.400 for everyone, okay, so that we can you know, fully 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:20.360 appreciate it. Here. So you're going beyond the Lord of 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:23.320 the Rings. You're going into the like the deep lore. Yes, yeah, 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:27.640 and uh and I cobbled this together from from from 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:31.279 rereading some segments of Tolkien's original work, but also from 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:35.920 rereading of segments from the Tolkien Encyclopedia, which is an 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.240 excellent book that came out I believe in like the 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:43.040 the nineties, I still have a copy of wonderful illustrations 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:47.600 throughout uh and uh So, anyway, without further ado, let 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:50.040 me tell you about the One Ring. So, the One 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:53.000 Ring was forged in the year sixteen hundred of the 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:56.560 second Age of the Sun by Sauron, forged within the 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.520 active volcano Mount Doom in the land of World War 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:04.880 So Saron was a former Maya spirit who served the 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:09.359 dark Lord Melkorp, who was defeated at the end of 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:12.599 the First Age of the Sun. And so then Saron, 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:15.800 in the guise of an atter, the giver of gifts, 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:20.480 he seduces the Alvin Smith's into forging the rings of power. 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:24.359 Uh these are the rings that from our opening reading 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.000 three rings for the Elvin King, seven for the dwarves, 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:29.960 nine for men, and you know, so that these may 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:34.320 be distributed among you know, the various intelligent species of 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.680 of the of the of the world. But then he 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.000 goes and he forges the one ring himself, the ring 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.719 that's going to control all of these rings, and and 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:46.919 also crackles with other powers will discuss. So it's a trick, 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:51.360 it's a trap. He's this godlike being who wants to 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:55.040 control the people's of Middle Earth, the elves, the dwarves, 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:58.240 the humans, and so he gives them these things that 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:02.599 are ostensibly like weapons or or sort of magical items 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:06.400 of power that allow them to increase their power and 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:09.760 dominance over the world. And once all, once all of 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:12.320 those people put the rings on and assume the power 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:15.800 for themselves, then he unlocks the trapdoor in the back 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.240 of the code, which is that he's got wondering that 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:20.760 gives him power over all the other people who are 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:23.760 wearing them exactly. Yeah, And and he take ends up 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.720 sort of taking various guys is the idea into different 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:30.240 forms throughout his history, you know, from the end the deceiver, 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.440 to the trickster, to the to the war lord, to 0:07:33.560 --> 0:07:37.320 the seeker. So his fair form is destroyed in the 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:41.160 Fall of New Maniore and he arises again as this 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:43.760 dark lord in black armor. This is the one that 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:47.480 anyone who's even just set down to watch The Lord 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:50.400 of the Rings films probably remembers from the prologue. So 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:52.120 even if you only made it ten minutes in, you 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:54.680 saw this part. He saw the dark Lord in his armor. 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:57.320 But this too, this form too was destroyed at the 0:07:57.400 --> 0:07:58.720 end of the Second Age of the Sun, and the 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:02.040 Ring was lost. But Saron did not perish because the 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:06.960 One Ring still existed, and his fate is bound to it. Um. 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:09.120 Even if you're more familiar with Harry Potter than Lord 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:11.000 of the Rings, you can think of the One Ring 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:15.520 is like is the horcrux, the single horcrux for Soron, 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:19.520 I suppose so in his in his reincarnated form, without 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:24.040 a body, he depends on this ring, or else he 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:27.760 cannot survive. Right. And so in the year one thousand 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:29.720 of the Third Age of the Sun, he rises again 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:33.600 as the Great Littless Eye Uh, seeking the Ring, waging 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:38.600 the War of the Ring. But his adversaries have found 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:40.880 it first, and they've hatched a plan to destroy it 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:44.240 by the only known means, casting it back into the 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.400 volcanic fires from which it was forged. Okay, so there 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:49.200 you've got the setting of the Lord of the Rings. 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:52.040 So you've got to take this ring back into enemy 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:55.080 territory to throw it into a volcano, which is the 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:57.400 only way it can be destroyed, the only way to 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:02.160 destroy this great enemy, God's sorcerer thing. Um. Now we 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:04.760 there are scenes in the movies, and I'm trying to 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:06.720 recall there in the book too. I mean we're like, 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:11.160 for example, Gimli the Dwarf played by John Ree Davies 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:14.160 and the Peter Jackson movies. Uh that you know, they're 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:16.520 getting the speech about how the Ring must be destroyed 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:19.480 in order to defeat Sauron. So he just whips out 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:21.400 his axe and he's like, all right, let's bust it. 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:23.760 And so he just swings his ax at the at 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:26.319 the ring. But it doesn't work right. He instead, I 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:28.600 think his ax breaks on it when he tries to 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.560 cleave the ring with it. So the ring is uh 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:35.880 portrayed as something that is completely indestructible except in the 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:38.800 fires of the volcano where it was forged. Yeah, there's 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:41.120 a there's a great passage in the Fellowship of the 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:44.320 Ring where Gandolf explains all this to Frodo after it's 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:48.080 been cast into the fireplace once and Frodo has has 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.800 tried to will himself to throw it once more into 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.719 the deepest part of the fire, but cannot, and so 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:57.719 Gandalf says the following, But as for breaking the ring, 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:00.720 force is useless, even if you took it and struck 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.160 it with a heavy sledge hammer. It would make no 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:06.520 dnt in it. It cannot be unmade by your hands 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:09.600 or by mine. Your small fire, of course, would not 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:13.200 melt even ordinary gold. This ring has already passed through 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:16.920 it unscathed and even unheeded. But there is no smith's 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:19.480 forge in this shire that could change it at all. 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:22.920 Not even the anvils and furnaces of the dwarves could 0:10:22.960 --> 0:10:25.840 do that. It has been said that dragon fire could 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:28.480 melt and consume the rings of Power, but there is 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:31.120 not now any dragon left on Earth in which the 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:35.000 old fire is hot enough, Nor was there ever any dragon, 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:39.160 not even on Kalaghan the Black, who could have harmed 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:42.160 the one ring, the ruling Ring, for that was made 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:46.040 by Saron himself. There is only one way to find 0:10:46.080 --> 0:10:48.880 the cracks of Doom in the depths of Oro Dron 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:52.680 the Fire Mountain, and cast the ring in there, if 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:55.240 you really wish to destroy it, to put it beyond 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:59.480 the grasp of the enemy forever. Thus spoke Gandalf, and 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.120 off knew what he was talking about. By the way, 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:04.720 I've always thought Syrian McKellen made a great Gandalf, But 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:07.440 I do have a strong attachment to John Houston's Gandolf 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:11.720 in the nineteen seventy seven animated version in the nineteen 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:14.920 eighties Return of the King. Um, so that you know 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:17.320 that that was the token of of my childhood, and 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:19.400 so so I was trying to summon a little John 0:11:19.480 --> 0:11:23.520 Houston flavor there my limited ability to do so, the 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:26.440 ones that make saw Rouman in the Santa Claus like 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:29.800 his red robes. Um. You know, I I haven't rewatched 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:33.240 the Return of the King in a while, but but 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:35.000 I have rewatched the Hobbit at that it held up 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:38.120 pretty well. You know. Oh, I totally agree that Ian 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:40.520 mckelen is a great Gandalf. In fact, I would say 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.000 that even if you don't like the movies for any 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:46.000 other reason, the Peter Jackson films are great just for 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:49.560 Ian McKellen's performance. Oh yeah, And I mean Christopher Lee. 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:51.840 It's it's got a wonderful oh Christopher Lee. Of course 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:55.480 that goes without saying. Uh So another note on the ring, 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.840 just real quick. Not that it's very important to what 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:00.720 we're going to be talking about from to the episode, 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:03.079 but what happens when you wear the ring? Oh yeah, 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:05.240 I was actually trying to figure this out, even though 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.880 I know the story. I was last night, I was googling, like, 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:12.240 what does the Ring actually do you know, other than 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.080 we know it confers this kind of vague power, But 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:19.400 it actually does have some specified powers in the mythology. 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:21.120 I mean the big one of course, and this is 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:22.960 the one that comes up in the Hobbit as well, 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:25.840 is that when you put it on, you become invisible 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.640 to most creatures, though at the same time you become 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:33.880 highly visible to certain other beings, namely the Ring wraiths, 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:37.600 um and uh and saw On himself. But it's like 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:40.600 allows you to sort of shift into another plane of 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:43.920 existence and then doing so, become invisible. But I think 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:48.600 that's only for some creatures who wear it, right, Um, 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.720 I mean the making them invisible? Right, Yeah, I mean 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.920 it's I don't think it's it's implied that when saw 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:58.960 On himself wears that he is invisible. But then again, 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:02.319 it's a different matter when you know the dark Lord 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:05.199 himself wears the Ring as opposed to win a mortal 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:07.240 wears the Ring. Oh, and I guess another thing to 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.120 specifies that the Wonder Ring, the powers of the Wondering 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:14.280 maybe greater or different uh than the powers of the 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:16.439 other rings that were given off to the to the 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.800 kings of the Mortals and the elves. Yes, yeah, it 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:21.560 is the it is the great ring. It is the 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:25.680 one that the Master himself forged. Um. And you know, 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.440 one note again about the sort of the origins of 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:32.400 sro On is that in his like previous life, you know, 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:36.880 as like an unfallen entity, as one of these Maya spirits, 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:42.199 he originally served the the ann or forge god a 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:45.079 Uli if I'm saying that right, who is you know, 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:47.400 a god of the forge like a Festus. So you 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:49.920 know he would have had, you know, presumably had access 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:54.720 to all knowledge of metallurgy and uh and metal making 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.760 and crafting in general. Yeah, well, maybe we should take 0:13:57.760 --> 0:13:59.360 a break and then when we come back we can 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:03.240 explore some questions about what the Ring of Power could 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:11.200 possibly be made of. All right, we're back, so you 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:13.400 know we're gonna again. We're gonna cherry pick a little 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:14.920 bit here. This is not going to be, you know, 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:18.760 a perfect dissection of everything. I don't think Tolkien was 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:23.240 going for hard sci fi and wanted him to, you know, 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:26.400 I mean, oh my god, wait, no, that's a brilliant idea. 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:30.080 So we've had various rewrites of Lord of the Rings. Uh. 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:32.360 You know, there is the rewrite of the story that 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.600 tells it from more Door's perspective that casts like Gandalf 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:39.040 and the Elves as as the villains and says, actually, 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:41.040 more Door is just a you know, it's just a 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:44.400 region of people who are trying to develop industrial technology 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:48.040 and they're being oppressed by these you know, ancient kingdoms 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:51.800 of magic users and they're fighting back. So that that's 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:54.480 like that, which is a wonderful treatment idea. I haven't 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.160 read it, but it's a wonderful idea because you see 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.120 that in plenty of like in plenty of myths and 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.160 and stories of old where he's got one side is 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:05.360 is cast as the heroes, the other side as the 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:09.520 demonic other, and the reality is is, you know, is 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:13.320 something different than that. There's something more balanced probably yeah, 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.520 uh so, so yeah, there's like that take. But here's 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:17.920 the take I want now, like the Arthur C. Clark 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.360 version of Whatever to the Rings that tries to tell 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:25.560 the same story but just imagines everything is like totally 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:29.680 mundane physics and chemistry and and how all that has achieved. 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:32.960 All right, well, well let's get into I guess some 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:36.680 of the chemistry here. Um, So let's just start by 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:39.800 talking about things you could throw a ring into in 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:44.000 an attempt to melt it. Okay, So, so to refresh again, 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:46.680 you've got this ring of power. You need to destroy 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:48.520 it to defeat the bad guy. But you can't just 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.160 throw it in a regular fire. The heroes can't do 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:53.920 anything about it except take it back to the volcano 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:55.760 where it was made. That's the only thing that will 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:59.160 destroy it. In terms of fire sources, Gandal says, fireplace 0:15:59.200 --> 0:16:01.600 isn't gonna cut it, dwarf and furnace isn't gonna cut it. 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.640 Only the volcano can can cut it. So let's talk 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:08.080 about the temperatures involved here. So, Uh, first of all, 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:11.080 let's take the Hobbits fireplace. If you look for a 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:15.359 you know, you look at a maximum open wood fireplace temperature. Um. 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.320 I was looking around for sources on this. I found 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:20.840 a few different different ones that that more or less matchup. 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.920 Hearth dot com, which indeed is a place for people 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:28.479 who are just into fireplaces to talk about fireplaces. Uh. 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:31.080 They have like a message board. It definitely it's a 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.880 full message board, but it lists it lists an average 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:40.480 fireplaces being somewhere between uh one thousand, two hundred degrees 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:44.120 to dred degrees fahrenheit. I've also seen it as high 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:47.640 as sixteen hundred um again for the hottest part of 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:51.960 the fire, where Frodo never actually throws it because the 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:54.080 will of the Ring prevents it. Uh And as far 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:56.680 as Celsius, we'd be talking a range of roughly what's 0:16:56.680 --> 0:17:02.360 six degrees And to clarify there, I guess this doesn't 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:04.920 really matter for the episode. But that's another thing about 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:06.679 the Ring is that the wing, the Ring sort of 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:09.480 has a will of its own, and so it even 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:12.120 when a character wants to destroy it, the Ring sort 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:14.560 of messes with their mind and and says, maybe you 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.520 shouldn't destroy it. So it's implied here that maybe Frodo 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:19.760 was trying to destroy it, but he hedged a bit 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:22.280 threw it into the cooler part of the fire. Is 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:26.440 that what you're saying, Um, I'm not sure about that, 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:28.840 Like the first time it goes into the fire. Yeah, perhaps, 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:31.639 though I mean really probably, because that's how the Ring works, 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:35.960 and that's how it works its will. Okay, So the 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:39.520 Hobbits fireplace, we'll come back to those. Uh that actual temperature. Again, 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:43.320 the Hobbits fireplaces get hotter than than other fireplaces, or 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:45.280 not as hot. I know, I would assume they're just 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:48.280 as hot as any fireplace. It's standard, you know, I 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.119 mean it's an open fireplace. Okay, now let's sit. You 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:54.440 know the dwarves they're really into working metal, right, Yes, 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:57.480 so dwarves are known for their metal work. So this 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:01.040 makes us wonder what is the maximum temperature of a furnace. 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:03.679 But specifically we should think about a medieval furnace, right, 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.760 because essentially the fantasy world of the Lord of the 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:09.600 Rings is as a medieval world. They're not in some 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:13.040 like steel foundry of today. Right. So a typical blast 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:16.040 furnace today that's going to reach temperatures of up to 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:20.200 three thousand degrees fahrenheit or uh one thousand, six hundred 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:24.720 and fifty degrees celsius. But during the Middle Ages, smelting 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:28.080 temps in Europe were not quite that high. So I 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:30.280 was looking around for a source on this, and I 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:35.640 ran across a website called our lima dot net. And 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:39.960 this is by Bert Hall from the Institute of for 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:43.280 the History and Philosophy of Science and Technology at the 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:46.919 University of Toronto, and he says the following quote. The 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:50.879 temperature inside the furnace is a critical variable. Most early 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:54.240 smelters in Europe could reach average temperatures of about seven 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:58.639 hundred degrees celsius and uh that would be uh one thousand, 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:02.960 two d degrees fahrenheit. And he continues, Now, pure iron 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:07.120 has a very high melting point, about one thousand thirty 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:10.600 degrees celsius, and that would be two thousand, seven eighty 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:14.119 six degrees fahrenheit. So when the newly formed mass of 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:18.160 iron coalesces at seven hundred degrees, it remains a red hot, 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:22.439 slightly plastic solid called a bloom. The smith can hammer 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:24.960 on this hot mass to shape it and to make 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.560 it it's extrude lumps of impurities that it might otherwise 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:31.640 congeal around. So that would give us a basic temperature 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:35.360 to work with here, seven hundred degrees celsius or one 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:39.320 thogrees fahrenheit. Okay, So one thing that points out, which 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:41.399 might be relevant to what we're talking about here, is 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:44.480 you don't have to fully reach the melting point of 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:47.400 a metal in order to do something to it right. 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:51.520 You can you can work with metal that's not fully liquefied, 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:54.320 you can just get it up to a temperature where 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:57.639 its strength is reduced, and you can deform it to 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:00.200 hammer the cuss out of it. Once it's soft, don't 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:02.119 have to like reduce it into a liquid that you 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:05.840 pour into a mold or something. Um So and and 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:07.720 but one of the things that Gandalf mentions two is 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:09.439 you can't just beat this thing with a hammer and 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:12.360 expect to destroy it either. So my read on this 0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:16.080 to sort of you know, uh, you know, underpin what 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:19.000 we're talking about here is if we think of the ring, 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:22.639 think of it like a like a mythical magical creature 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:25.560 like a vampire or something where you can't just shoot it. 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:29.000 You have to beheaded or completely immolated like there must 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:32.960 you must reach a threshhold of absolute destruction to keep 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:36.600 it from you know, healing itself or or whatnot. Okay, 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.640 So maybe the idea is if you slightly deformed the ring, 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:42.760 it would kind of bounce back, because again, the ring 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:45.919 has a will of its own. Yeah, that's my imperfect 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:47.880 read on this, because some people might say, well, technically 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:51.680 Gandalf says, the ring doesn't even get hot in the fire. Okay, fine, 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:54.239 Oh I was also trying to look for things about that, 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:57.240 about like metals that don't get hot when heat. I 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:00.760 guess that would be poor thermal conductors. Uh, there are 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:03.119 some like like bismuth is a metal that is a 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:06.800 poor thermal conductor. I don't mean to suggest that the 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:08.920 Tolken had in mind that the ring was made out 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:11.359 of bismuth. Of course, bismuth has as a much lower 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:15.320 melting point, so that easily melted in a furnace. Yeah. 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.600 So anyway, I'm going to stick to my interpretation that 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:21.760 to destroy the ring of power, you would have to 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:24.600 destroy it absolutely. You would have to just completely either 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:28.200 shatter it into uh, into dust or even better and 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:31.920 more easily done in a in a world like this 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:36.040