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Speaker 1: The Bishop of Charlotte, North Carolina clamps down on the

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Speaker 1: traditional Latin Mass as the world waits to see what

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Speaker 1: Pope Leo the fourteenth will do on this front. We'll

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Speaker 1: get into that and much more on this edition of

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Speaker 1: The Prayerful Posse. Welcome to this Arroyo Grande series, The

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Speaker 1: Prayerful Posse, where we dive into matters of faith and

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Speaker 1: its impact on the culture. Let's convene the posse. Father

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Speaker 1: Gerald Murray, Canon lawyer of the Archdiocese of New York,

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Speaker 1: and Robert Royal, editor in chief of The Catholic Thing Dot,

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Speaker 1: organised some great columns up there that you should read

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Speaker 1: after you watch this. I'm Raymond to Arroyo. Go subscribe

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Speaker 1: to the Arroyo Grande podcast on iHeart Apple, Spotify or

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Speaker 1: on YouTube at Arroyo Grande Show so you don't miss

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Speaker 1: an episode. You don't want to miss the Posse. Gents,

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Speaker 1: I have to discuss this, the move to stamp out

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Speaker 1: the Latin Mass by Pope Francis, the popular growth of

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Speaker 1: that mass and Bishop Michael Martin of Charlotte, North Carolina

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Speaker 1: here in the United States. This week he instituted a

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Speaker 1: clamp down on the traditional Latin Mass, even as it

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Speaker 1: has flourished and expanded in his diocese. The bishop is

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Speaker 1: restricting the old Mass, which was in only four parishes,

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Speaker 1: to a single parish chapel thirty five miles from the cathedral.

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Speaker 1: He claims he's doing this to promote the concord and

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Speaker 1: unity of the church. Bishop Martin, in a statement, says

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Speaker 1: these updated restrictions are meant to bring the Charlotte Diocese

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Speaker 1: in compliance with Pope Francis's tradisionis custotis that motoproprio he

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Speaker 1: signed a few years back. Father, Is that explanation valid,

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Speaker 1: especially now since Pope Francis is no longer with us.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's partially valid because Pope Francis did issue that

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Speaker 2: document which was meant to restrict the Latin Mass, but

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Speaker 2: it also was meant to provide for the past care

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Speaker 2: of those who are still desirous of going to that Mass.

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Speaker 2: So the decision that the Bishop of Charlotte made to

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Speaker 2: restrict it to one location in a chapel that's not

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Speaker 2: mandated by tradisions custodis traditisions custow. This certainly doesn't prohibit

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Speaker 2: having multiple places where the Mass can be offered, and

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Speaker 2: he also removed it from parish churches because, yes, tradisionis

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Speaker 2: custodas said, you can't have it in parish churches. But

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Speaker 2: as with everything in canon law, you can ask for

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Speaker 2: a dispensation, and the previous bishop had asked for a dispensation.

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Speaker 2: He decided not to. So there's a lot of his

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Speaker 2: own decision making here, which is not compelled to buy

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Speaker 2: triditionis custodis, but is rather his decision. And I think

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Speaker 2: it's quite clear he doesn't want the Latin Mass to

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Speaker 2: be generally available and has taken these steps for that reason.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to get to some of his other

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Speaker 1: musings and thoughts about liturgy, even the New Mass, the Novasorto,

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Speaker 1: and his vision of that. Get to that a bit later. Father,

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Speaker 1: before we go any further, describe quickly what the traditional

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Speaker 1: Latin Mass is, or the Latin Mass that we hear

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Speaker 1: so frequently discussed and that we'll be discussing.

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Speaker 2: Sure now, the Mass that most people know and even

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Speaker 2: non Catholics visit Catholic churches. It's done in the vernacular,

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Speaker 2: the priest faces toward the people, the readings are in English.

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Speaker 2: Everything essentially is in the vernacular and the prayers have

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Speaker 2: a more modern flavor. The traditional Latin Mass goes back

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Speaker 2: in essence, you know, to early centuries of the Church.

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Speaker 2: It was codified at the Council of Trent, and it

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Speaker 2: involves a you know, very regulated way of praying. The

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Speaker 2: priest faces towards the altar, the prayers are in Latin

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Speaker 2: and has a whole different sense of it's more, we

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Speaker 2: would say, in line with the way the Orthodox celebrate liturgy,

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Speaker 2: which is very specifically regulated. So yeah, it has a

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Speaker 2: more mystical spirit because you know, just the way prayers,

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Speaker 2: some prayers are said in low voice, is some normal voice.

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Speaker 2: So it's something worth exploring. People have never been to

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Speaker 2: a traditional Latin Mass, I think would be very pleasantly

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Speaker 2: surprised as to go to one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it's filled with mystery. It's like another world

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Speaker 1: in some way. Yeah, Bob, how does cracking down further

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Speaker 1: on a valid form of the ancient Catholic liturgy? How

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Speaker 1: does that promote unity? In your mind?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's the puzzling thing about the argumentation,

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Speaker 3: if we want to call it that. I mean, he

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Speaker 3: does make arguments if her father alluded to some of those,

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Speaker 3: but how persuasive and how true they are I find puzzling.

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Speaker 3: I mean, look, this is not a question solely of numbers,

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Speaker 3: but from what we understand, there were about a thousand

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Speaker 3: people who would come on an average Sunday to the

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Speaker 3: various parishes or the various churches where the lat Mass

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Speaker 3: was being offered. There are half million Catholics in the

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Speaker 3: Diocese of Charlotte, North Carolina, and not all of those

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Speaker 3: go to a Mass on a Sunday, let's say twenty percent.

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Speaker 3: So there are one hundred thousand who show up at mass.

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Speaker 3: One thousand are at a Latin Mass. Now is that

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Speaker 3: really a large enough number that it's disruptive to the

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Speaker 3: unity of the Diocese of Charlotte. Now I know very

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Speaker 3: little about it. He is the bishop there, he has

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Speaker 3: the right to run the diocese in certain respects. But

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Speaker 3: it just seems to me that if one thousand people

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Speaker 3: are setting off or destroying the unity or threatening the

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Speaker 3: unity of a diocese, well there's something to be investigated here.

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Speaker 3: There's some power in it that is not simply a

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Speaker 3: matter of people who are schismatic or critical of others.

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Speaker 3: There's some real attraction and power there that maybe shouldn't

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Speaker 3: be stamped out, but it doesn't have to be followed

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Speaker 3: in the way that those people are. If they're troublemakers,

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Speaker 3: you deal with trouble makers. But otherwise, maybe there's something

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Speaker 3: here that can help energize the church, which in many,

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Speaker 3: many parishes is pretty beige. As Bishop beharnkle, Yeah, Look.

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Speaker 1: I've spoken to a number of priests in that diocese. Know,

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Speaker 1: the seminary which Bishop Michael Jugas kind of expanded. He

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Speaker 1: had more than forty seminarians and they were teaching the

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Speaker 1: Tridentine right the Old Mass in the seminary, So this

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Speaker 1: was a focal point. It was a driving force of

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Speaker 1: vibrancy and enthusiasm throughout the diocese, and the two priests

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Speaker 1: I spoke to said there were many more than a

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Speaker 1: thousand people celebrating the Old Mass, and some of them

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Speaker 1: had been You know, it was originally nine parishes, it

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Speaker 1: went down to four. Now they're down to one. It's

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Speaker 1: not a parish, I misspoke. It's a chapel out in

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Speaker 1: the woods, like thirty five miles from the cathedral. Starting

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Speaker 1: on July eighth, no parish church's father in the diocese

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Speaker 1: will be permitted to host the celebration of the traditional

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Speaker 1: Latin Mass like it's something filthy and dirty. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Hooters isn't treated like this in this diocese. Bishop Martin

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Speaker 1: notes that his predecessor, Bishop Peter Jugas requested an extension

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Speaker 1: of the grace period for compliance with Pote Francis Modo

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Speaker 1: appropriate that stamped the old right. That extension expires this year.

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Speaker 1: He believes the diocese is not ready for the full

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Speaker 1: implementation of the traducioni's norms. On May twenty seventh, the

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Speaker 1: four priests of the Charlotte Dioceses who pastor TLM parishes,

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Speaker 1: they wrote to their bishop. They wrote to Bishop Martin

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Speaker 1: before he issued this promulgation asking him to reconsider. Quote.

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Speaker 1: Pope Benedict the sixteenth believed that both liturgical forms could

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Speaker 1: coexist peacefully within the church and even within the same parish.

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Speaker 1: Such has indeed been the case in our parishes. Since

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Speaker 1: its implementation. Our parishes have experienced harmony with all parishioners,

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Speaker 1: regardless the liturgy being spiritually nourished. The planet. Removal of

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Speaker 1: the Latin Mass from four parishes, affecting over one thousand parishioners,

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Speaker 1: is a matter of considerable consequence. To remove Catholics with

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Speaker 1: legitimate desires from their own parishes is we believe, a

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Speaker 1: deeply painful action. End quote Father, your thoughts on this

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Speaker 1: request of these four pastors. This seems to be the

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Speaker 1: experience of a lot of these parishioners, and certainly the

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Speaker 1: pastors and priests I've spoken to.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I agree with those priests. The assumption that the

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Speaker 2: bishop is annunciating is similar to an assumption that Post

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Speaker 2: Francis initiated, which is that people who go to the

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Speaker 2: Latin Mass, the traditional Latin Mass, are a cause of

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Speaker 2: disunity in the church. And I thought that presumption was

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Speaker 2: not verified in the case of Post Francis. I think

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Speaker 2: it's not verified in the case of the Diocese of Charlotte.

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Speaker 2: I did visit that diocese. Once I went to the seminary,

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Speaker 2: I met the priests in charge. I thought this was

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Speaker 2: an exemplary diocese. No, it's basically a hostility, which equates

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Speaker 2: anyone who likes the traditional Latin Mass, rejects the Second

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Speaker 2: Vatican Council, rejects the New Mass, and rejects the life

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Speaker 2: of the Church in general. Since the Second Vatican Council,

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Speaker 2: and I think that presumption is not true. There are

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Speaker 2: a small minority of people who have a truly seismatic

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Speaker 2: spirit who like the Latin Mass. They're mostly following Archbishop Lefevre.

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Speaker 2: But that's not the case of the Latin Mass people

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Speaker 2: who go to the Fraternity of Saint Peter and Institute

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Speaker 2: of Christ the King Parishes. I think it's just a mistake.

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Speaker 2: And you know, let's think, let's just step back for

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Speaker 2: a minute. We have a crisis of mass attendance the

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Speaker 2: Catholic Church of the United States. Why in the world

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Speaker 2: would you get angry with people who go to Mass

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Speaker 2: because they like to go to the Mass that their

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Speaker 2: parents went to or their grandparents, and say, you're causing disunion.

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Speaker 2: You're not causing disunity, you're upsetting clerics. And you know,

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Speaker 2: it seems that the bishop falls into that category who

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Speaker 2: don't have an appreciation for the traditional Latin Mass. So

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Speaker 2: all always say is, Bishop, listen to your pastors, step

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Speaker 2: back and say why don't we wait and see what

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Speaker 2: Pope Leo says, because referring this matter to him would

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Speaker 2: be the most prudent thing in the world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I want to get to that in a moment,

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Speaker 1: and Bob Father raises an interesting point. If you're saying

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Speaker 1: that people that prefer the old Latin Mass, that there's

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Speaker 1: somehow harboring these deep hatreds of Vatican too or the

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Speaker 1: pope or division, how do we know people going to

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Speaker 1: the novs Ordo don't harbor similar thoughts, or you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe they think the Church should should allow the poor

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Speaker 1: to come live in there, and we shouldn't have masses anymore.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they want to have clown masses. How do I

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Speaker 1: know what they're thinking. I mean, it is a bit

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Speaker 1: of presumption and you know, wish casting to kind of

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Speaker 1: imagine that, you know, the hearts and souls of people

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Speaker 1: just because of the type of mass they go to.

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Speaker 1: I mean, goodness knows what the Byzantines or the Marinites

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Speaker 1: might be thinking or feeling.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I have to say, in fairness, the bishop has

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Speaker 3: said in other places that there are people who abuse

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Speaker 3: the novs Ordo Mass, But it doesn't seem to be

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Speaker 3: very much strong action, dude to impress that part of

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Speaker 3: what's going on in our liturgies, And you're.

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Speaker 2: Exactly right, I mean, there is.

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Speaker 3: It was quite interesting thing that that right after Popo

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Speaker 3: Leo was elected, and after his inauguration he met with

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Speaker 3: the representatives of the Eastern Churches who were in Rome

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Speaker 3: for the jew for the week it was dedicated in

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Speaker 3: the Jubilee for the Eastern Churches, and he talked about

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Speaker 3: how important the Eastern churches are to the West because

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Speaker 3: they have a sense of spirituality and a sense of

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Speaker 3: mystery in their liturgies, and how much they can teach

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Speaker 3: those of us in the West. So just if you're

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Speaker 3: following along and Leo says he's Poplio says he's following

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Speaker 3: in the line of Francis, Well, if you're following along

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Speaker 3: with that, I think you would want to wait and

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Speaker 3: see how he might want to adjust things a little bit.

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Speaker 3: I go back to the point that, look, if anybody

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Speaker 3: is a troublemaker and a church, of course I have

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Speaker 3: to be dealt with. But it doesn't mean just because

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Speaker 3: you like the Latin Mass doesn't mean you're a troublemaker.

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Speaker 3: It means you like Latin Mass and maybe in fact

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Speaker 3: you were more docile to your bishop as a result

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Speaker 3: of your you know, you're rigid and clericalist impulses. So look,

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Speaker 3: it's a strange argument that's being made. It's odd that

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Speaker 3: it's being made at this moment, and I think we're

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Speaker 3: going to have to see if Leo is going to

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Speaker 3: take the bull by the horns here and try to

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Speaker 3: set up what I think it's a more pastoral and

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Speaker 3: merciful way of dealing with people who were attached to

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Speaker 3: the traditional Latins.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, those priests, Bob who wrote that letter begging the

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Speaker 1: bishop to avert course here and not limit the traditional

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Speaker 1: Latin Mass anymore. And what this means, essentially, for those

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Speaker 1: who may not be fully aware what this means is

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Speaker 1: they're expelling these people from a parish setting which was

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Speaker 1: set up by Pope Francis. And these priests said, are

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Speaker 1: people feel abused, they feel marginalized and persecuted. Here, Father,

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Speaker 1: we've covered Pope Francis's crackdown on the liturgy since it

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Speaker 1: was unleashed. What did you observe in the wake of

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Speaker 1: Benedict's Somorum pontificum that gave permission wide permission for any

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Speaker 1: priest to offer the traditional Latin Mass. Did you see

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Speaker 1: discord or division in the wake of that, as Pope

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Speaker 1: Francis and Bishop Martin I assume now maintain no.

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Speaker 2: I saw nothing of the sort. In fact, we have

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Speaker 2: the Archdioceis of New York. There is quite a bit

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Speaker 2: of interest in the Latin Mass, not only in New

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Speaker 2: York City but in some of the upper counties, certainly

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Speaker 2: in Westchester County. So no different priests, I know, because

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Speaker 2: of some more in Pontificum. They began celebrating the traditional

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Speaker 2: Latin masks in parises and it worked fine. In fact,

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Speaker 2: one priest's friend of mine, he would he inserted that

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Speaker 2: Mass into the middle of the Sunday morning schedule, and

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Speaker 2: people told them, well, this week I'm going to Latin Mass.

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Speaker 2: Next week I'll go back to the New Mass. It

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Speaker 2: was whatever was convenient, and no, it was peaceful and harmonious.

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Speaker 2: And we have to remember there were two groups that

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Speaker 2: Bennett was concerned about. The people who followed Archbishop Lefevre.

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Speaker 2: He tried to make a deal with them to restore

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Speaker 2: the society of pious the tenth. That deal never came about.

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Speaker 2: But the other group, where people remained completely canonically loyal

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Speaker 2: to the Roman See, to the Holy Father, but wanted

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Speaker 2: to go to the Latin Mass in good standing. And

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Speaker 2: Pope Benedict's attitude was, how can I turn a blind

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Speaker 2: eye or a cold shoulder to people who are faithful Catholics.

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Speaker 2: So now let's go back. There's a deeper problem here,

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Speaker 2: and I'd be interested in Bob's opinion on this, But

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Speaker 2: there's the discontinuity and continuity schools of thought. The Vatican

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Speaker 2: Two was meant to be a discontinuity with the past,

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Speaker 2: So any attachment to anything done before the Council of

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Speaker 2: view with suspicion by some Pope Benedict and John Paul

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Speaker 2: the second of the other idea, it's all the faith

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Speaker 2: is from Jesus down to our time, does a continuity

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Speaker 2: of expression. There are differences, there are improvements, there are mistakes,

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Speaker 2: but we don't say categorically once a council meets everything before,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't count. And that's unfortunately, I think what some

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Speaker 2: people are basing their thoughts on.

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Speaker 1: Well, Bob, as a way to get your opinion on

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Speaker 1: that thought, I'm going to play a little bit. This

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Speaker 1: is an interview I did with Pope Benedict just before

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Speaker 1: he was elected pope, and I'll let you hear what

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Speaker 1: he says here. But he talks about what was true

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Speaker 1: then is true. Now listen to this.

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Speaker 4: I think it was important to be open to this

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Speaker 4: possibility and to demonstrates or also say, continuity of the church.

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Speaker 4: We are to not another church as five from the

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Speaker 4: dis I go, it's always the same church and was

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Speaker 4: in one time Hollypas churches, all of us Holophos church,

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Speaker 4: and it is not in another time an impossible thing.

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Speaker 1: Bob, your reaction to that and this idea that somehow

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Speaker 1: these people are out of the continuity and have no

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Speaker 1: place post Vatican two.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, the phrase that Benedict invented that I think

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Speaker 3: encapsulates what he was after. I mean, other than the

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Speaker 3: pastoral concern for everybody on all sides of the so

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Speaker 3: called liturgy words, the phrase he invented was mutual enrichment.

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Speaker 3: That we've got this tremendous two thousand year cultural, liturgical, spiritual, artistic,

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Speaker 3: literary history in our church and we have to be

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Speaker 3: in continuity with the church that goes all the way

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Speaker 3: back to Jesus Christ. At Vatican two, you know, there

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Speaker 3: were two dynamics of Vatican two. There was the jornamento,

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Speaker 3: the updating, but there also was the russourceman going back

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Speaker 3: to the church fathers. So the idea that we're somehow

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Speaker 3: in a hermeneutic of rupture has Benedict called it that

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Speaker 3: we've broken with the past. And we hear this phrase

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Speaker 3: with some of the people in the QUERYA these days,

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Speaker 3: we're not going back. They say, well, we don't have

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Speaker 3: to go back, because the tradition is something that is

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Speaker 3: constantly moving forward. It's like being a human person and

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Speaker 3: you draw on your entire past life with your parents

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Speaker 3: and your schooling and your siblings and whatnot, and all

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Speaker 3: that enables you to go forward. Obviously there are conflicts

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Speaker 3: and tentions in there, but if you abandon your past,

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Speaker 3: then you've got amnesia. You've got, you know, some disconnect

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Speaker 3: with your own humanity.

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Speaker 1: Well, Bob, you're a musician. I always think of this

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Speaker 1: in musical terms. It would be like saying, no more

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Speaker 1: opera and no more Bach. We never want to hear

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Speaker 1: that again. We don't want to hear that Messiah that

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Speaker 1: handled guy too old out. We only go from nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy five on. That's all we're going to play in

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Speaker 1: this church. And here this is absurd. What burn down

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Speaker 1: the Vatican museums then, because all we could all we

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Speaker 1: need is the modern art and the big globe thing

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Speaker 1: in the in the garden' that's enough. No more of

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Speaker 1: that Pieta, no more of those Greek statues. You don't

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Speaker 1: need that, father.

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Speaker 2: We need the carpenters. We've only just begun. That's the

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Speaker 2: whole thing here, exactly.

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Speaker 1: That would be the carpenters would be an upgrade to

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Speaker 1: some things I've heard in part that's true.

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Speaker 2: We might have Ozzy Osbourne as that direct Yeah, it looks.

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Speaker 1: Like an American IDOL audition.

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Speaker 2: Go ahead, yeah, oh, but look what Bob says. It's

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Speaker 2: eminently reasonable. And the point here is the Pope Benedict

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Speaker 2: didn't say no one can go to the new Mass.

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Speaker 2: People said those people who want to go to the

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Speaker 2: old Mass, let them go, and the priests who want

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Speaker 2: to celebrate it, let them learn Latin, let them learn

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Speaker 2: the rubrics, let them celebrate the old Mass. Now, as

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Speaker 2: in all things, when when the people in charge try

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Speaker 2: to restrict a legitimate option, they create a reason which

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Speaker 2: is usually not the case, which is this option is

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Speaker 2: harmful to those who want to use it. Well, wait

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Speaker 2: a minute, was it harmful at the time the Second

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Speaker 2: Batting Council was called. Because that's the mess. They all

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Speaker 2: celebrated when they enter into Saint Peter's. It wasn't harmful

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Speaker 2: because guess what it produced the you know, people who

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Speaker 2: prayed and decided at the Council to make some changes.

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Speaker 2: But hey, the debate continues whether they made a good

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Speaker 2: decision in some of those post Conciliar changes. Let's just

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Speaker 2: keep the debate going.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, the obsession that this idea that the TLM community,

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Speaker 1: those who love the Latin Right, that they were fomenting

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Speaker 1: a movement to deny Vatican two's liturgical reforms, never mind

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Speaker 1: that some of those reforms were never promulgated by Vatican two.

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Speaker 1: That they insist, oh, this is the law. That's not

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Speaker 1: when you're reading the documents, they don't call for the

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Speaker 1: version of the Mass we have today in most parishes.

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Speaker 1: They don't. It doesn't look like what they called for.

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Speaker 1: We should recall that. Back in twenty twenty one, when

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Speaker 1: Pope Frances issued Tradisionis Custodis, beginning the de facto's suppression

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Speaker 1: of the Old Right, he often cited the results of

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Speaker 1: a Vatican survey of bishops that he said demanded called

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Speaker 1: for the restrictions he would issue in this document, Here's

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Speaker 1: the quote. This is from Tradisionis Custodis I instructed the

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Speaker 1: Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith to circulate a questionnaire

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Speaker 1: to the bishops regarding the implementation of the motopproprio somorum pontificum.

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Speaker 1: That was Pope Benedict's permission. The responses revealed Pope Francis says,

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Speaker 1: a situation that preoccupies and say, hadden me and persuades

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Speaker 1: me of the need to intervene, an opportunity offered by

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Speaker 1: Saint John Paul, and with even greater magnanimity by BENEDICTA

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Speaker 1: sixteenth intended to recover the unity of the ecclesial body

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Speaker 1: with diverse liturgical sensibilities, was exploited to widen the gaps,

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Speaker 1: reinforce the divergences, and encourage disagreements that injure their church,

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Speaker 1: block her path and exposure to the peril of division.

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Speaker 1: End quote Bob. There were questions at the time about

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Speaker 1: the validity of those results of that survey, which were

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Speaker 1: never published. Your thoughts on the narrative. Though this is

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Speaker 1: a narrative, it is a characterization of a swath of

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Speaker 1: faithful Catholics that apparently continues.

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Speaker 3: Look, I've heard that there are stubborn progressives as there

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Speaker 3: are stubborn and rigid traditionalists as well. I mean, if

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Speaker 3: this is not something that is unique to one side

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Speaker 3: of the liturgical war or another, and it's simply I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's very clear to me that the only way we

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Speaker 3: can approach this at this moment is to do whatever

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Speaker 3: we can to foster people's closeness to Jesus Christ himself.

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Speaker 3: Some are going to find it through one way, some

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Speaker 3: are going to find it through another. I go back

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Speaker 3: and I say, if people are troublemakers, if they're true troublemakers,

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Speaker 3: if there was a parish for example, or you know,

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Speaker 3: a group of a cabal within the Diocese of Charlotte,

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Speaker 3: well certainly they should be told that they have to

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Speaker 3: respect the rights of other people who I go to

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Speaker 3: a novsorto Mass that has a lot of Latin in it,

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Speaker 3: and I find it quite adequate for most of the

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Speaker 3: time when I go to Mass on a Sunday. But

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Speaker 3: I think that you deal with problematic persons, you don't

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Speaker 3: just declare entire swaths of the church as somehow illegitimate

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Speaker 3: or a threat or you know they're they're attempting to

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Speaker 3: distort what Catholicism should be in our day. I think

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Speaker 3: we learn from one another, not with this mutual enrichment

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Speaker 3: was intended to be.

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Speaker 1: And Father Diane Montana our palot was on several weeks ago.

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Speaker 1: She reported at the time that that survey did not

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Speaker 1: say what the Vatican and Pope Francis insisted it said. There.

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Speaker 2: That's correct because someone leaked some of the surveys and

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Speaker 2: it revealed, for instance, in Germany, the bishops were largely

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Speaker 2: content with what Pope Benedict had done. It had not

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Speaker 2: produced difficulties. Now yet, what kind of difficulties result in

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Speaker 2: disunity when people are going to a mass authorized by

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Speaker 2: the pope. The hostility is beyond the legal realm of

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Speaker 2: what's permitted and what's not permitted. It's a little bit

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Speaker 2: of thought control, which is basically saying, if you do

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Speaker 2: not find in the new Mass the same spiritual depth

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Speaker 2: you found in the old Mass, that you have a problem.

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Speaker 2: And my answer to that is, how can you be

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Speaker 2: so sure they have a problem. Maybe they have an insight,

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Speaker 2: maybe they have an into well, maybe they have a

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Speaker 2: good memory, because quite frankly, as as Bob pointed out,

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Speaker 2: the bishop and Charlotte did say that some New Order

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Speaker 2: masses novsorto masses, which are very irreverent because of different elements.

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Speaker 2: I can't tell you how often people complain about what

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Speaker 2: they experience at mass. I mean, you have some churches,

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Speaker 2: maybe not in the US, but in Europe where women

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Speaker 2: are giving the sermon. In other words, an unordained person

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Speaker 2: is being given this because the priest is sitting down

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Speaker 2: and saying this, this should be done. That's disunity because

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Speaker 2: he's violating not only the law, he's also questioning the

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Speaker 2: validity of the sacrament of Holy Orders because people who

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Speaker 2: aren't ordained are not supposed to preach it mass. And

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Speaker 2: there's a whole theology behind that. So if you want

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Speaker 2: to find disunity, take a survey of people who've been

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Speaker 2: to novsort of mass to find how many clown masses,

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Speaker 2: how many cowboy masses, how many football mass Actually of

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Speaker 2: mass once where a priest was kicking a soccer ball,

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Speaker 2: another one where they're throwing a rugby ball, and he said,

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Speaker 2: wait a minute, who's the problem, the person kneeling down

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Speaker 2: and saying dominateting on some deenius or the person the

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Speaker 2: priest who's throwing a soccer ball around or taking a

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Speaker 2: soccer ball.

428
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 1: Excuse me, now, I've been to masses in Europe, father,

429
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: where they literally had a DJ station and in the

430
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 1: middle of mass, the priest went over. He was working

431
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 1: the table working. I've never seen anything like that. I mean,

432
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,719
Speaker 1: you can't make this stuff up. But when Bishop Martin

433
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 1: issued his letter on this implementation of tradisi Onis on

434
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: Friday May twenty third, he also issued to his priests

435
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 1: a set of talking points. Okay, these were responses to concerns,

436
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 1: is what they called them, regarding the implementation of his orders.

437
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: He apparently spent a lot of time anticipating the questions

438
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,159
Speaker 1: that might arise. I want to go through some of

439
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 1: these responses, okay. One of the most curious was quote

440
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: implementation of Tradiitsey onist custodis will cause people to withhold

441
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 1: their giving to the church. He says this the Bishop Martin.

442
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: All people are free to give in whatever way that

443
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 1: they choose. However, Catholics in particular are called to give

444
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: in support of the Church, not out of charity, but

445
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,199
Speaker 1: as a response to the call of the Holy Spirit

446
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: to be faithful and committed members to the one Body

447
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: of Christ if they choose to do that based upon

448
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: a transactional model. I give when I get what I want.

449
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: That is a perspective that is more modeled by our

450
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 1: culture than by the good news proclaimed by Jesus in

451
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 1: the scripture. Bob, your thoughts on that response, So that

452
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: the faithful are obligated to give money to the diocese

453
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 1: regardless of how their faith is treated, shut up and pay.

454
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a clever argument, and probably a clever by

455
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 3: half over clever by half, because look, it's simply human

456
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 3: nature that people tend to support things. It could be

457
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 3: missionary activities, and it could be educational activities that they

458
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 3: see making a difference in the world. I mean, I

459
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 3: think faithful Catholics have an obligation to discern where they

460
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 3: put their financial resources and simply to say, well, look,

461
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,400
Speaker 3: you've got to support us because we're the diocese. Well,

462
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 3: then you've got to make some prudential judgments because certain

463
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 3: things may be worth supporting in your diocese. I think

464
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 3: in every diocese there are Catholic charities and other things

465
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 3: that are going on, you know, schools, etc. That really

466
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 3: deserve some support. But the more general question is how

467
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 3: are people otherwise to register their sense of what their

468
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 3: church is doing in a diocese. I mean, you can

469
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 3: go and try to talk with a bishop, and I

470
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 3: mean many of us have tried to do this, and

471
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,479
Speaker 3: sometimes it's fruitful and sometimes it's not. But the bishop

472
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 3: has a responsibility on his own part not just to

473
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,959
Speaker 3: be the bishop and to require people to support him,

474
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,960
Speaker 3: but to actually provide them with opportunities that help advance

475
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 3: the faith that everyone is trying to advance in a

476
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 3: very difficult set of circumstances in the modern world. So look,

477
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 3: I think it's a clever idea to try to manage

478
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 3: is what they know is going to be a fierce reaction,

479
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 3: but I will be very very surprised if it works.

480
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 1: Well, Father, your thoughts on the tone of these responses,

481
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: I mean you've read them to the charge that he

482
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: isn't being sonodyl Therefore listening to people, the bishop says, quote,

483
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,679
Speaker 1: listening and agreeing aren't the same thing, end quote. Couldn't

484
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 1: want to argue, father, that this is just the kind

485
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: of autocratic model that Pope Leo warned about in his

486
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: early homily. How is this appropriately pastoral?

487
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 2: Well, I find it interesting with talking points because what

488
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 2: it means is either they've done research or they're very

489
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 2: intuitive because they already know what people are going to say,

490
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 2: which means, of course that they've already heard this as

491
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 2: the pastor's objections already brought forward. So you know when

492
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 2: you criticize people being transactional, well, isn't it transactional to say,

493
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 2: by way, no need to send in your comments. We

494
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 2: already know what they are. Here are the answers. So

495
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 2: that's a number one mistake. Number two, you know, yes,

496
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 2: you're supposed to give money. That's in canon law, that's

497
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 2: in Catholic tradition. But you know, there's a reason why

498
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 2: when we run annual campaigns and dioceses that we have

499
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 2: brightly colored brochures and meetings with the bishop because it's

500
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 2: the difference between I'll give one dollar or I'll give

501
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 2: a hundred. You want to give them a reason to

502
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 2: give a hundred. And if you recognize that people are

503
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 2: appreciative of what the former bishop did but you no

504
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 2: longer want to do it, well you have to accept

505
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 2: the prices that will wait a minute, are the reasons

506
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 2: I'm varying from what the previous bishop did? Are they

507
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 2: going to sell to the people who have benefited from that.

508
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 2: They obviously aren't going to so I don't think he

509
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 2: wants to reconsider his position. He certainly didn't reconsider what

510
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 2: the pastor said. So certainly lay people is not, I think,

511
00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 2: not going to listen to what is the terrible miss

512
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: And by the way, this kind of attitude the people

513
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 2: are going to pay anyway. Bishops in the sex afuse

514
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 2: case to not worry about how much money they might

515
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: have to pay out later, because they say, well, we'll

516
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 2: just go back to the well here. And that's when

517
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 2: you know, lay people thank god, they said, you know, bishop,

518
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: ex bishop, why if you're using our money to pay

519
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 2: settlements that we don't know about, we're not happy. We're

520
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: not going to provide those funds in the future.

521
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, people will pay to support their faith, the

522
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: spread of that faith and the Orthodoxy. But when you

523
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: deter from that, they're not going to pay. They simply

524
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: and worse, they won't show up any longer. Father, And

525
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 1: you know this is true. You see parishes, the attendants dwindling.

526
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: Why why are these Latin mask communities packed with young

527
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: families and children. I was just in one in another city,

528
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: the other day they literally had them coming out the steps.

529
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: They had families standing on the steps with the door open,

530
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: listening to the masks because they couldn't fit. That tells

531
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: you something. Something is clearly happening among the young. It's

532
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: a movement, and I think they're afraid of it. I

533
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: think some people are a little afraid of it. And

534
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: rather than engaging and talking to these people and figuring

535
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: out why are you coming, what drew you here, and

536
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 1: giving them more of that spreading the faith, for whatever reason,

537
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: they've decided we're going to close the doors, shut this down,

538
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: and you all get out of here. That's the wrong approach.

539
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: That's a fast pass to orthodoxy, and that's where I

540
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 1: think a lot of these people are going to end up. Sadly, Bob,

541
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: what do you make of the timing here? A new

542
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: pope has just been elected and inaugurated. Is this really

543
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: a priority for any bishop at this moment to stamp

544
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: out a valid part of the Mass or a version

545
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: of the Mass?

546
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 3: Well, many people notice that, in classic public relations fashion,

547
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 3: that this announcement was made late on the Friday before

548
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 3: mo real day weekend, which meant that, you know, the

549
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 3: public reaction it's a holiday weekend and you know, people

550
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 3: are off doing other things. Yeah, us alone tells you

551
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 3: that there was some serious calculation of how to present

552
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 3: this in public and to try.

553
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 2: To minimize what the right was going to be.

554
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 3: But I say, again, look, we've seen already with the

555
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 3: different way that Pope Leo handles things that it simply

556
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 3: would have been I think respectful. And I mean, unless

557
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 3: we find out that he consulted with the Vatican and

558
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 3: talked with the Pope Leo and he said yeah, I

559
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,719
Speaker 3: go right right ahead with this, I think we need

560
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 3: to wait. We're very early still in this papacy. He's

561
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 3: onto many more immediate pressing questions like abuse and the

562
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 3: financial crisis and the Vatican, and he's been meeting with

563
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 3: you know people. We see Cardinal O'Malley has been there,

564
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 3: some of the people on the financial side, so we

565
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 3: know that he hasn't yet turned his mind to this

566
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 3: sort of liturgical thing. But we see that his liturgical

567
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 3: practice is much more traditional than we had previously under

568
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 3: Pope Francis. So I have to think that unless he

569
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 3: got the green lights somehow, And it strikes me that

570
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 3: kind of using this pr tactic may indicate that he didn't,

571
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 3: but I don't know. Yeah, I still think that it

572
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 3: would have been prudent, It would have been respectful to

573
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 3: It might have even been important if he had spoken

574
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 3: with the Pope to say I've gotten approval to do this.

575
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 3: We have heard that, and it makes all of this

576
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 3: seem very, very suspicious.

577
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: Father. The Catechism says that the Eucharist is the sum

578
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: and summary of our faith. Our way of thinking is

579
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: attuned to the Eucharist. So people want to be more reverent,

580
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: more solemn. Why is that something to be stamped out

581
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: or viewed with suspicion.

582
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 2: Well, Pot Francis was in that school of thought, and

583
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 2: I have to say, as you know, analyzing based on

584
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 2: objective statements and things that were known in the public.

585
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 2: He was very much a product of the sixties mentality,

586
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: which was thank god, we finally got rid of this

587
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 2: Latin mass. You know, there's another document if you want

588
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 2: to talk about it, where the bishop talk says, you

589
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 2: know that nobody knows Latin, so why are we having

590
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 2: mass and Latin?

591
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 4: Right?

592
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, that's ridiculous. Lots of people know Latin.

593
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 2: And by the way, even if you don't know Latin.

594
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 2: It's like if you don't know Italian, I can't go

595
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 2: to the opera. And of course you appreciate the beauty

596
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 2: for crying out loud. Saint Augustin wrote all his works

597
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 2: in Latin. Thomas Aquinas wrote in Latin, we scholars, you know,

598
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 2: use that as the basis of what they do.

599
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: Now.

600
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 2: No, we have this kind of back to the rupture

601
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 2: an analogy that you know what the effort of Vatigan

602
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 2: two was to say, no more of the past. Everything

603
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 2: starts here. The new order of ages, you know, which

604
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 2: is on the dollar bill. I mean, this is American Republic.

605
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: Was something new. Vatican two was in continuity with all

606
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 2: the other councils because it was doing the same thing.

607
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 2: The doctor and the faith was being taught. So yeah,

608
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 2: we don't need.

609
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: It.

610
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 2: Bothers me as a pastor of souls, that anybody would

611
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 2: be shown the door after they've been attending Mass in

612
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 2: a beautiful way and never displaying any hostility to the

613
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 2: doctrine of the faith, of the unity of the Church.

614
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 2: That I can perceive if there was a rebellion of

615
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 2: people rejecting the authority of the Holy see in the

616
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 2: dyes of Charlotte. I think he would have heard about it.

617
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 2: I don't think it ever happened.

618
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: No, no, Well, the faithful who loved the Old Mass

619
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: are also encouraged by Bishop Martin and I love this bit, Bob,

620
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 1: to engage in some acts of penance and charity for

621
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: the healing of the church. This is like saying, as

622
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: I beat you and throw you out of the house,

623
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: pray for my intentions and consider how bad you've been.

624
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 1: He also advises them to stop listening to podcasts and

625
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,439
Speaker 1: to have a media blackout, that they should just state

626
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 1: of their own thoughts. I mean, this is somebody said

627
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: mind control. Who said it? I think it was your

628
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: father that you know, this is a mind This is

629
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 1: really mind control, Bob, Yeah, thought control.

630
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah yeah.

631
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 3: And I think it's unfortunate that he's using spiritual categories

632
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 3: for this, as almost to say that you're bordering on

633
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 3: something like sinfulness or sism or you know whatever, the disunity, whatever,

634
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 3: the principle is here, and that in fact what you

635
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 3: need to do is look into your soul. Well, I mean,

636
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 3: we all need to look into our souls on a

637
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 3: daily basis for a variety of things.

638
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 2: But I'm willing to bet the.

639
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 3: Desire to attend the Latin Mass is pretty far down

640
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:25,879
Speaker 3: on the list of sins that most people are likely

641
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 3: to commit. And if you're up high enough, I think

642
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 3: we're all going to hear about it. You're right, I

643
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 3: mean there's going to be an open clash with some

644
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 3: group or other and in the local pastor, we didn't

645
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 3: hear about any such thing.

646
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 1: No, no, Father, will this situation, the escalation of this

647
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: blackout on the traditional Latin Mass? Do you think this

648
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: will provoke Pope Leo to act? Should he abrogate Pope

649
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 1: Francis's restrictions on the traditional Latin Mass? Well?

650
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think yeah, traditionals Coustol this should be with

651
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: on as a document and go back to what Benedict

652
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 2: did because quite frankly, the pastoral good of the church

653
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 2: was being promoted and there was no manifest disunity being

654
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 2: experienced by the Catholic Church in any country that I

655
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 2: know of. If the bishops of Germany were happy with

656
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: Benedict because they had a lot of objections to what

657
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 2: he did, I think we can re secure things were okay,

658
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 2: and just on a human level. You mentioned the number

659
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 2: of Catholics in the dice is how many go to

660
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 2: Mass on Sunday? You can't find room for a couple

661
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 2: of thousand people to attend Mass in a beautiful form.

662
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 2: Of course you can. This is unfortunately, a will to

663
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 2: enforce this notion that any competition to the New Mass

664
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 2: is going to hurt the church. And as you know,

665
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 2: I'm a free market. Economic competition spurs excellence, you know.

666
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 2: I mean, why do we have multiple podcasts out there

667
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,399
Speaker 2: because people say, well, I like, but guess what, why

668
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 2: is better?

669
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 3: Now?

670
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 2: I hope they say that the Royal Grande is better,

671
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 2: because it is. But the point of the matter is,

672
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 2: let a thousand flowers bloom. Yeah, the Mass be said.

673
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 2: And by the way, you want to talk about vocations

674
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 2: of the priesthood, so many of them come out of

675
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 2: the either Latin mass community or the knowledge that well,

676
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 2: you know, as need is, maybe I can say the

677
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 2: old Mass and the New Mass. That certainly was the

678
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 2: case in the Benedict. Only good things happen when freedom

679
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 2: of choice is given in this matter, because this is

680
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 2: choosing a spiritual benefit that was proven over the course

681
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 2: of the centuries.

682
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Bob, we should remember the late Pond. If

683
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: Pope Francis had no qualms whatsoever really ending a signature

684
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 1: piece of legislation by his immediate predecessor, by Pope Benedict.

685
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have to say I'm still absolutely shocked by

686
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,919
Speaker 3: the way that that came about. And it came about

687
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 3: not only at like an abstract level where you can't

688
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 3: celebrate a traditional Latin Mass in a parish within the diocese.

689
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 3: I mean we even saw things like can you announce

690
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 3: in a parish bulletin when Latin masses are going to

691
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 3: be held or you know, wherever the Latin Mass is

692
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 3: going to be held. I mean there's really this kind

693
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 3: of minute attempt to impose I don't know if we

694
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 3: want to call it an ideology, but there's some sense

695
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 3: of something that has to be preserved and if it

696
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 3: isn't carefully somehow fenced off from criticism and the dynamics

697
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 3: that other people have, it's fragile. I mean, it almost

698
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,200
Speaker 3: is a confession that something is fragile, that they're worried

699
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 3: is about to be destroyed. So look this, I don't

700
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 3: think that this question is going to go away, because

701
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 3: I think it raises again. Yet the things that we kept,

702
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 3: we've been talking about for sixty plus years with Vatican two,

703
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 3: that the Church has not yet found a balance between

704
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 3: the Church prior to the Council and the post conciliary Church.

705
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,320
Speaker 3: There can be this fruitful coexistence with one another.

706
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: Well, Benedict. I think Benedict tried, Bob. I think he

707
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 1: found it. I just think subsequently this narrative was born,

708
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 1: and we'll get to that in a moment that I

709
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: think justified the ending of the balance and the common

710
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: sense balance with history as well as the the you know,

711
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: with looking with eyes to the future. We should also

712
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: say a draft letter came out from Bishop Martin that

713
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: was leaked to a website and it was a host

714
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: of liturgical prohibitions. Now it calls for it. You reference

715
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: this earlier Father, the striking of all Latin even from

716
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 1: the New Mass, which I don't think he can actually do.

717
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 1: I think that's part of Vatican two and the reform.

718
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: He condemns the praying of the Saint Michael's prayer at

719
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 1: the end of Mass. He wants to forbid kneeling to

720
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 1: receive communion. Father, How is any of that in keeping

721
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 1: with the reforms of Vatican two? Is it? No?

722
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 2: Look, it's not. If he objects to Latin being used

723
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: in the Novis Ordo, then the first thing has to

724
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 2: do is send a letter to Pope Leo, because he

725
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 2: just celebrated his inaugural Mass, which was both in Italian

726
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 2: and Latin. Latin is used all over the Church as

727
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 2: a matter of course, because it's not prohibited. Latin was

728
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 2: never prohibited. There's no prohibition of celebrating the New Mass

729
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 2: in Latin. So to celebrate the New Mass in English

730
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,879
Speaker 2: with parts in Latin, it's perfectly legal and it's good.

731
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 2: Now he makes points that people don't know Latin, therefore

732
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 2: it shouldn't be used. That's crazy. Forgive me, you know,

733
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,240
Speaker 2: Bishop of saying using that harsh word, but it doesn't

734
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:41,240
Speaker 2: make any sense.

735
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: You know, we should end the carry speaks Greek father.

736
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, we have the currie alas on the Greek. You know,

737
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 2: have the reproaches for good Friday. No look to say

738
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 2: that the health of a people depends on forgetting everything

739
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 2: that led up to the present version of the Mass,

740
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:03,320
Speaker 2: that's just a ridiculs this way of thinking. It's nonsensical

741
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 2: in order to as a priest. You know, when I

742
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 2: was studying in the seminary, how the rubrics when I

743
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 2: was supposed to do. The rubrics of the New mass

744
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,680
Speaker 2: are a modification of the previous rubrics. So in any

745
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 2: scientific study, as people know, if you want to know

746
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 2: the origin and nature and purpose of something, you find

747
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 2: it's antecedents and its precedents, and that's what we do.

748
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: So you know, I feel sorry for people in that

749
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 2: diosis if they do, in fact try to abolish singing

750
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 2: a kyrie or a sanctus or an anyo stay in

751
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 2: Latin because somehow this is harmful. That's not that doesn't

752
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 2: make sense.

753
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: The bigger problem here, father, is it's not even in

754
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 1: keeping with the general instruction of the Roman missile. It

755
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 1: demands certain things. The Latin is mentioned there, the people

756
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: of the option to kneel or stand. That's really up

757
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: to the people receiving community anyway, Bob. It's being reported

758
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 1: that Bishop Martin will not release that letter of those

759
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 1: you know, prohibitions on practices even in the New Mask,

760
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: mostly due to the blowback it's being reported from his clergy,

761
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: which is all the more reason why the sheep should

762
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: keep their ear to the ground and keep raising their voices.

763
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, I read that draft letter and I

764
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 3: have to say, I mean, it takes your breath away

765
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 3: that there can't be alter rails. If you have them,

766
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,280
Speaker 3: they need to be pulled out. There can't be predieu,

767
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 3: there can't be objects on the altar that block the

768
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 3: view of the sacred elements, the bread and wine. I mean,

769
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 3: it's like a progressive wish list, you know, just one

770
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,919
Speaker 3: thing after another, and the thing that is quite sad

771
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 3: from my point of view. And you know, I know

772
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,879
Speaker 3: other people may look at this differently. Yes, in a way,

773
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 3: Christianity is about simplicity and you know, the poor and

774
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 3: marginalized and whatnot, but it's not about dumbing down or

775
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 3: or bringing everything down to the kind of most passive

776
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 3: element in our churches is if we can't have anything elevated,

777
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 3: we can't have any music, we can't have any special language.

778
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 3: I'm always surprised when I'm at Mass and we're using

779
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 3: Latin that a lot of the people who never have

780
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 3: never studied Latin know how to say on Usday. They

781
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 3: know they our Father yea domain on some dignis. They've

782
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 3: heard it enough that they can do it and they

783
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 3: kind of know what it means actually, and we know

784
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 3: that the Vatican Document on the Liturgy actually asked that

785
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 3: we lift people up, bring them up to understanding. You

786
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 3: bring them up to be able to understand chant and

787
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 3: appreciate different forms of music, and also to have contemporary forms,

788
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 3: not to just move everything down to the kind of

789
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 3: most pedestrian street level. When we need to lift up

790
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:57,959
Speaker 3: our hearts and our spirits to God.

791
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: Well, people should read the Vatican Council documents Vatican two

792
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: consul Documents on the Liturgy. It calls for the preservation

793
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: of the Latin, It calls for polyphony and chant in

794
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 1: the mass. Many places you don't have any of that.

795
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,760
Speaker 1: So if we want to talk about continuity with the Council,

796
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 1: if that's the new bar for everything, well you've got

797
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: to then read the document and figure it out. But

798
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 1: it really my heart bleeds for the people in those

799
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 1: parishes in North Carolina, in Charlotte, as well as other

800
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 1: places that have endured this over the last few years.

801
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 1: It's not only there. This is just the most flagrant

802
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: and recent example. The Anglican Communion. I want to switch

803
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: gears here. They have not had an Archbishop of Canterbury

804
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: since November of twenty twenty four. Father the Crown Nominations Committee.

805
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: That's the group that elects the next head of the

806
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 1: Anglican Communion. They are in place now, everybody's been selected

807
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: and they're about to elect a new Archbishop of Canterbury.

808
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: What is the sluggish process tell you about the vitality

809
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: of that communion? And it's being reported they could have

810
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,240
Speaker 1: their first female Archbishop of Canterbury.

811
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,800
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the reality is the King of England

812
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 2: appoints the Archbishop of Canterbury and that is not what

813
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 2: the Catholic Church is doing and approves of, but that's

814
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 2: what the Anglican Communion does. So it's really up to

815
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 2: the King how long he wants things to go or

816
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 2: how quick he wants them to go. The sad thing,

817
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 2: of course, is that you know, in Christian understanding, the

818
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,839
Speaker 2: shepherd is supposed to stand over the sheep and lead

819
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 2: them in salvation. So the shepherd is not supposed to

820
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 2: be sort of like an icon of the whole community

821
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 2: and what the community thinks is important, supposed to be

822
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 2: a represent of Jesus and what he thinks important. So

823
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,320
Speaker 2: hopefully they'll like someone who is a serious Christian in

824
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 2: the sense of believing in the Bible, the doctrine that's

825
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 2: communicated by Christ who his apostles. But you know, as

826
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 2: a Catholic priest, I lament, you know the extraneous factors

827
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 2: such as, well, we have to have a woman bishop,

828
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 2: therefore we're going to get one. Well we don't accept

829
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 2: women bishop, so lead that aside. But what about the

830
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 2: we need to dose someone who's a really good shepherd

831
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 2: to lead the church. I hope that's what they do.

832
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Bob. It also an Anglican friend of mine,

833
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: a cleric, reached out to me during the conclave and said,

834
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 1: it's amazing the world is paying all this attention to

835
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 1: the election of a pope. We haven't had an archbishop

836
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 1: of Canterbury for months. Nobody's paying any attention at all.

837
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: They don't even report on it. I mean it is

838
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 1: kind of stunning.

839
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's sad. Look for all the differences in

840
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:45,879
Speaker 3: the conflicts we've had with the Anglicans over the years,

841
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 3: and they've certainly killed enough Catholic priests you back at

842
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:49,839
Speaker 3: the founding.

843
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 1: Of their own church.

844
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 3: It's quite sad because the Anglican tradition, and we're all.

845
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 2: In native English speakers.

846
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 3: I really think that the Anglican Ordinaria, which was another

847
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 3: gift that we got from Poe Benedict, is one of

848
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 3: the beautiful additions to the liturgies of.

849
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 2: The Western Church.

850
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 3: And when I go to some of those masses, it

851
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,399
Speaker 3: really strikes me that there's there's something beautiful about having

852
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 3: an English language mass. It has a tradition going back

853
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 3: to Shakespeare and even earlier. The oddness about their inability

854
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 3: to select somebody, I think has Father put his kind

855
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 3: of put his finger on it has partly to do

856
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 3: with this political considerations that you know, they exist in

857
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 3: our church as well, but not quite in the same

858
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 3: way as they seem to exist in the Anglican Church.

859
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 3: And on top of it, their previous Archbishop of Canterbury

860
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 3: had to resign because he mishandled some sexual abuse cases.

861
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 3: And I think that that maybe have been a trauma

862
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 3: that has made them think long and hard about who

863
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 3: is final question.

864
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 1: Last Sunday, the Pope publicly prayed for Chinese Catholics at

865
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: the Vatican, and he said that in the churches and

866
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: shrines in China and throughout the world, prayers have been

867
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 1: raised to God as a sign of the solicitude and

868
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: affection for Chinese Catholics and their communion within the Universal Church.

869
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: Pau Benedict instituted this feast a Father. But with that

870
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen Vatican China Deal still in play, what do

871
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 1: you think was meant by this? Why do you think

872
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: the Pope Leo underscored it?

873
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 2: Well, it was the feace of our Lady at Shan,

874
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 2: which is the Chinese appellation of our Blessed Virgin Mother. Yeah,

875
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 2: he has solicitude for the Chinese Catholics, There's no doubt,

876
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 2: because he did bring it up. But in my opinion,

877
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 2: he needs then to look at the secret Chinese agreement,

878
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:47,280
Speaker 2: and he needs to look at the appointment of bishops

879
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 2: who are unworthy by the Communist party to run dioceses

880
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,840
Speaker 2: in that country. And he needs to look quite frankly

881
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 2: at this the overall persecution of the Catholic Church in China.

882
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 2: I mean again, we mentioned Jimmy Lai frequently in other venues.

883
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 2: Jimmy Lai is a Catholic convert who is in prison

884
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 2: on trumped up charges in Hong Kong, and not once

885
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:13,520
Speaker 2: has the Holy See ever mentioned his name in dealing,

886
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,760
Speaker 2: you know, in proclaiming the need for human rights throughout

887
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 2: the world, and that was a glaring omission and last pontificate.

888
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 2: It would be nice if we heard that post France

889
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 2: of poe Leo had sent a letter to Jimmy Lai

890
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 2: and to others who were imprisoned. It means it's up

891
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 2: to him to decide the modalities. By just saying, your

892
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 2: Holy Father, speaking as someone who's followed this story and

893
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 2: we all have, why is it that political prisoners in

894
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 2: other countries get the attention of the Holy See, but

895
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 2: not a Chinese Catholic who's so faithful.

896
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 1: Well, Bob, last word, and you've written a fantastic book

897
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: that is an entire chapter on this persecuted, persecuted and

898
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 1: martyr church in China.

899
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:53,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Raymond.

900
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 3: I appreciate your mentioning that. Look, he Poplio was the

901
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 3: head of the Congregation for bishops. He must know very well.

902
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,240
Speaker 3: You know who the bishops are there where they stand.

903
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 3: We know from work by our friend Nina Shay and others.

904
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 3: It's something like ten bishops have just disappeared, either either

905
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 3: in prison or they're dead, and they're just gone. We

906
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 3: don't know where they are. So I agree with Father. Look,

907
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 3: the situation is known. We have pretty good data on

908
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 3: what's happened to people like Jimmy Lai. Even Cardinals Zen

909
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 3: at one point was being threatened in Hong Kong. We

910
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 3: have a pretty good idea of what's happening there. It

911
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 3: would take some very very delicate negotiations, I think to

912
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 3: withdraw the Church from that agreement. It might bring some

913
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 3: further harm to Catholics there, But I think we have now.

914
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 3: We can see clearly we've made a deal with the devil.

915
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 3: And you know what happens when you make a deal

916
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 3: with the devil, It never turns out well.

917
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:53,320
Speaker 1: Well, and we know Pope Leo is one of the

918
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:57,760
Speaker 1: only popes in recent memory who actually has visited China

919
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 1: when he was head of the Augustinian Order, talked about

920
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: going and visiting Augustinian homes there and meeting with clergy.

921
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 1: So he probably has a different perspective here than any

922
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: of his predecessors. Let's hope, you know, grace and knowledge

923
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 1: prevails upon him to involve himself in the situation of

924
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 1: this poor community and much beleaguered Catholic faithful posse. We

925
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: will leave it there, and if you want more of

926
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse and who doesn't Subscribe to

927
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 1: the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube, Arroyo Grande Podcast wherever

928
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, Spotify, Apple, Go wherever you get it,

929
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,720
Speaker 1: and sign up on behalf of Robert Royal, Father Gerald

930
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 1: Murray till the Posse rides again. Stay in the light.

931
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 1: I'm Raymond Arroyo. We'll see you next time by now.

932
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and

933
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 1: is available on the iHeartRadio, Apple wherever you get your podcasts.

934
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:07,320
Speaker 2: Because percasts Spooks consists focused perkastanis