1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: H four days before his execution, Changsung Tex sat inside 2 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: the Mansuda Assembly Hall behind a wood paneled desk, flanked 3 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: by hundreds of his fellow politicians and bureaucrats. Seated before 4 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: him behind an ornately carved ais was his nephew and 5 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: judge Kim Chang n Aschangue fidgeted in his chair, the 6 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: Polite euro issued its judgment to pretended to uphold the 7 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: party and leader was engrossed in such factional antists, dreaming 8 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: different dreams and involving himself in double dealing. Behind the scene, 9 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: Tongue looked sullen. Two soldiers approached him, grabbed him up 10 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: by the elbows, and escorted him out of the room. 11 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: The sixty seven year old official looked hunched and frail, 12 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: as if on the verge of collapse. Within days he 13 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: would be dead. The so called dreams and double dealings 14 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: Uncle Tongue committed were never specified. All we know is 15 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: that Kim jong nun considered him a threat, and some 16 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: believe Kim jong nam factored into his death sentence. Chang 17 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: Song Tech clearly had a favorite nephew. He and Kim 18 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: jong nam spoke on the phone regularly and shared common 19 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: goals for the country. Chang reportedly wired money to his 20 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: nephew and Macao. Some murmured that Change was hoping to 21 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 1: install Kim jong Nam as the next leader. Others suggested 22 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: that China was providing security for Kim jong Nam as 23 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: a favorite to Uncle Change as a thank you for 24 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: his Chinese friendly policies. Few know what conversations were had 25 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: in Beijing, but rumors have swirled China was taking a 26 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: close look at Kim jong Nam just in case the 27 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: incumbent leader needed to be well replaced. Kim Jong Nam 28 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: was an obvious choice for that, because you know, he's 29 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 1: known to be quite friendly to China. He was somebody 30 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: I think that China felt could be counted on and 31 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: was beholden to them, And that is why I think 32 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: he was living in Macau as well, a Chinese terror ary, 33 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 1: a place where he could come and go easily, but 34 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: under the protection of China. Even if China provided Kim 35 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: jong Nam with security, it didn't provide much support financially, 36 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: because shortly after Uncle Tang was dispatched from this planet 37 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,959 Speaker 1: with anti aircraft guns. No less, Kim Jong Nam's lavish 38 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: lifestyle began to flounder. The man who was accustomed to 39 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: staying at five star hotels and oceanside villas was now 40 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: desperately reserving airbnbs. Another former school friend of Kim Jong 41 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 1: Nam told me that Kim jong Nam seem to have 42 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: been kind of cut off from the regime finances once 43 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: Kim Jong Nun took over. For reasons that aren't clear, 44 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: the revenue stream Kim jong Nam had secured running his 45 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: gambling sites may have dried up. He was clearly working 46 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: for a living, working for himself, and making money for himself. 47 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: In the final years of his life. With Uncle Chang dead, 48 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: Kim jong Nam became increasingly desperate for cash, and just 49 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: days before his assassination in February, he took one of 50 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: the biggest risks of his life, apparently in a bid 51 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: to make much needed money. He flew to Malaysia, away 52 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: from the protection of his Chinese minders, and visited Langkawi, 53 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: an archipelago known for its serene, palm dazzled islands, white 54 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: sandy beaches, and turquoise waters. During his stay at a 55 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: Western hotel hell on Langkawee, security footage would catch Kim 56 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: jong Nam backpack and tow meeting a suspicious stranger. So 57 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: some of the last footage of Kim jong Nam showed 58 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: him in a hotel elevator with a man of Asian ethnicity. 59 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: The man's identity is a mystery, but according to South 60 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: Korea's intelligence agency, the man was not some childhood friend 61 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: from Switzerland, nor a friendly comrade from back home, nor 62 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: even one of Kim jong Nam's gambling clients. He was 63 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: American and he worked for the c I A I'm 64 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 1: even lee. In this episode, we delve into the twisted 65 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: relationship between Kim jong Nam, the United States and North Korea, 66 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: and a big question was Kim jong Nam an American asset? 67 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: And it's so did the US government know what could 68 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 1: happen to him? The regime has every interest to keep 69 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: tabs on his brother. North Korea has chemical weapons capability, 70 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: but the willingness to use UH is there. Kim jong 71 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: Nam had been acting as an informant to the CIA, 72 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: giving them information what he knew about Kim Jong Lan 73 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: and the regime. This is big brother in North Korea. 74 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: There may be no worse crime than working with or 75 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: being sympathetic to the Americans. And that's because the United 76 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,559 Speaker 1: States in North Korea's eyes is public Enemy No. One. 77 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: The DPRK's behavior, it's obsession with weapons of mass destruction, 78 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: it's devotion to military first policy, even the way it 79 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: killed Kim Jong Nam, all tied into the country's tense 80 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: relationship with the US. But to understand why, we have 81 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: to go back to June the outbreak of the Korean War. 82 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: I would say, with just the slightest exaggeration, that the 83 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: Korean War launched modern international history. As Dr Lee explains, 84 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: the Korean War transformed the United Nations from a paper 85 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: organization into a global force. It's why American troops are 86 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: stationed at basis in more than seventy foreign countries, and 87 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: it deepened the tensions that would come to define the 88 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: Cold War. The Korean War was deeply consequential, and yet 89 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: the conflict would be largely hidden from the American public. 90 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: The Korean War has long been dubbed in the United 91 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: States It's as the Forgotten War. But for the five 92 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: hundred thousand Korean War veterans still alive today from the 93 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: various countries that fought in it, very little has been forgotten, 94 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 1: especially in Korea. The war touched upon the lives of 95 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: the vast majority of the people in both South Korea 96 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: and North Korea in a tragic negative way. Virtually every 97 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: Korean had a family member or relative who was maimed 98 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 1: or killed or lost. Over fifteen percent of North Korean 99 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: civilians were sacrificed, ten million people probably displaced from home, 100 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of orphans. So the death toll and 101 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: the suffering, and it's one relevant factor metric, of course, 102 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: But of course that doesn't tell the entire story. That 103 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: entire story really it's with the indiscriminate splitting of the 104 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: Korean peninsula at the thirty eighth parallel, the line dividing 105 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: North and South. So late night on August tenth, the 106 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: United States came up with a plan for temporarily dividing 107 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: Korea at the halfway the midway point at the thirty 108 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: eighth parallel, to block further advancement of the Soviet troops. 109 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: So this was a proposal submitted by the United States 110 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: to stalin North and South Korea. In other words, were 111 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: inventions of other nations. No Koreans had a seat at 112 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: the table when their homeland was divided. The haphazard manner 113 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: in which the partitioning of the Korean Peninsula came to 114 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: take place is a source of ire for the people 115 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: of Korea, but the initially the intention was to say 116 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: at least half a loaf half of the Korean peninsula, 117 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: to put South Korea under the U s fere influence. 118 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: The line, however, was not something Koreans on either side 119 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: recognized culturally or politically, so the United States and Soviet 120 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: Union made a promise the division would be temporary. In 121 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: the United Nations tried to erase the dividing line and 122 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: unite the peninsula under one government with an election, but 123 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,119 Speaker 1: when it came time to vote, the Soviet Union refused 124 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: to let the UN Commission cross into North Korea. Locked 125 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: out of the North, the UN decided to hold assembly 126 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: elections anyway, but only in the South, and with that 127 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: the government of South Korea was officially established and any 128 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: chance of uniting the peninsula peacefully vanished. And then two 129 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:57,439 Speaker 1: years later, in June fifty, the Korean War began. Under 130 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: the strangest of circumstances, Koreans invaded Korea with the goal 131 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: of unifying Korea. There's no doubt who started it, Kimils 132 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: Hung and the communist North, but American officials refused to 133 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: believe the North Korean leader was actually responsible. When news 134 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: of the North Korean invasion of South Korea broke, President 135 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: Truman himself almost immediately decided to take action due to 136 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: a misreading of the situation. Do you too seeing North 137 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: Korea's invasion of the South as Stalin and Mao's ploy 138 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: viewing the North Korean leader Kim Is Sung as a 139 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:53,199 Speaker 1: mere puppet to Stalin and Mao. In fact, the high 140 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 1: ranking State Department official said that the relationship between Stalin 141 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 1: and Kimmi Sung is exactly the same as that between 142 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: Won't Disney and Donald Duck. Kimi Song is not his 143 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: own man, and Stalin is pulling the strings. In an 144 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: effort to beat back the attack, the United Nations pour 145 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: troops into the peninsula, both what out of misreading the situation. 146 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: Within weeks, North Korea had nearly taken over the entire 147 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 1: South Korean peninsula, But with the backing of the U 148 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: n the South Korean military would soon receive international support. 149 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: Sixteen countries, including Turkey and Ethiopia, deployed military troops. Thirty 150 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: nine other countries gave financial and material support, but it 151 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: was the United States that provided the bulk of foreign 152 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: manpower and weaponry. The U n Forces, led by General 153 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: Douglas MacArthur, slowly began to beat back the Northern invasion. 154 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: Only five is removed from World War Two. American officials 155 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: chose a playbook that had successfully repelled Imperial japan air power. 156 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: The air force weaken the North Korean advance by targeting 157 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,839 Speaker 1: the military's rear, disabling the chain of troops in charge 158 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: of supplying the front with AMMO, gasoline, and food. They 159 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: also heavily targeted North Korean cities. This strategy, while effective, 160 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: would lead to the most destructive bombing campaign in military history. 161 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: As the U. S Secretary of Defense, Robert Lovett explained, 162 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: we keep on tearing the place apart, we can make 163 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: a most unpopular fair for the North Koreans. We ought 164 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: to go right ahead. The extent of the bombing was unimaginable. 165 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: North Korea was flattened. More than five percent of the 166 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: country's buildings were destroyed. Some cities, like sina Ju, were 167 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: transformed into rubble. American pilots also targeted irrigation dans that 168 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 1: have provided water for three quarters of the country's crops, 169 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: flood waters destroyed squads of farmland. Suffering ensued. With their 170 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: cities gone, millions of North Koreans resorted to living underground, 171 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: and the hell fire continued. With a new lethal innovation 172 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: that had been tested in World War Two, but now 173 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: in the Korean War, made its real debut, napalm. This 174 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: is what an a pound bomb does. When it hits, 175 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: it's searing flames spreads four hundreds of feet. The infantrymen 176 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: then take over and advance at the crucial rate, despite 177 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: the pounding of red buckers. It is a harrowing foot 178 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: by foot operation. Deep in their trenches. There are still 179 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: plenty of the enemy and after to pour fire into 180 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: the attackers, but the flamethrower silence system at a smoke 181 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 1: screen masks the attack. Grim is the word for Korea. 182 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: Napalm charred the countryside and the people in it. From 183 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: June to October, the US would drop more than eight 184 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: hundred sixty six thousand gallons of napalm on North Korea. 185 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: By the war's end, more napalm was dropped on the 186 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: DPRK than any other nation in history. Vietnam included to 187 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: be clear, we're not trying to stoke sympathy for the 188 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: North Korean regime, nor to excuse the terrible atrocities that 189 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: has committed both during a war it started and in 190 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: the decades since. But the widespread bombing of North Korea 191 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: is vital to understanding the country's attitude toward the United States, 192 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: because while the Korean War might be forgotten in the US, 193 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: in the DPRK, the air bombardment is taught in every 194 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: school today. Most of North Korea as anti American propaganda 195 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: is built on easily disproved lies. But the difficult truth 196 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: is that the foundation the spark for much of this 197 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: anti americanism, according to journalist Blaine Harden, is quote rooted 198 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: in a fact based narrative, one that North Korea obsessively remembers. 199 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: That lingering resentment is just one of many unintended consequences. 200 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: Another is North Korea's obsession with weapons of mass destruction. 201 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: Because in late n the U N Forces did more 202 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 1: than just repel North Korean attacks. They cross the thirty 203 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: eighth parallel with the goal of unifying Korea for the South. 204 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: But on the other side, a goliath was waiting. China 205 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: kept issuing threats. If you enter North Korean territory. If 206 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: you approach our border, we will fight you. We will 207 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: send true and MacArthur dismissed those Chinese threats as just 208 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: empty threats. But MacArthur was wrong. China did step in 209 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 1: not wanting Western soldiers anywhere near its border. China would 210 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: send more than three million people to North Korea's aid. 211 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: General Douglas MacArthur, who believed he could win the war 212 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: with quote one hand tied behind his back, argued that 213 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: the best way to cut off the Chinese advance was 214 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: to drop nuclear weapons in Korea. I visualize a cul 215 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: de sac. I see here a unique use for the 216 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: atomic bomb to strike a blocking blow at the Pentagon. 217 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff rejected MacArthur's proposal, 218 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: but MacArthur pushed and pushed and pushed again. He'd request 219 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: a total of twenty six atomic bombs, and although those 220 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: requests were denied, he would remain a shameless advocate for 221 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: nuclear attack. I would have dropped between thirty and fifty 222 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: atomic bombs strung across the neck of Manchuria. The bomb 223 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: wasn't MacArthur's only go to. He also suggested releasing chemical weapons. 224 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: Arguing that the military should spread radioactive waste across the border, 225 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: creating a chemical fence that would keep Communist ground troops 226 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: barricaded up North. Instead, President Harry Truman would fire him 227 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 1: for in subordination, but MacArthur's replacement, General Matthew Ridgeway, was 228 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: also a fan of nuclear weapons. He would request thirty 229 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: eight atomic bombs. The Pentagon did not approve. It did, however, 230 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: later approve of request from the Joint chiefs of Staff, who, 231 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: according to Korean war scholar Bruce Cummings, ordered quote atomic 232 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: retaliation against Manchurion bases if large numbers of new troops 233 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: came into fighting. By ninette, the possibility of a nuclear 234 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: attack on North Korea seemed so inevitable that Air Force 235 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: pilots started flying practice runs dropping dummy bombs on would 236 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: be targets. By the time the armistice was signed in 237 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three, with both sides effectively agreeing to a stalemate, 238 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: North Korean civilians and leaders were paranoid about the threat 239 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: of nuclear annihilation, and that paranoia would only grow. By 240 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven, the United States was storing approximately nine 241 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 1: hundred fifty nuclear warheads in South Korea. The United States 242 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: removed the last of these weapons from the peninsula, but 243 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: to this day, submarines and stations nearby provide a so 244 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 1: called nuclear umbrella, and that fact has fueled North Korea's 245 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: decision making. It isn't irrational for North kore you to 246 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: think it might need um greater security. That again is 247 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: Jenny Town of the Simpsons Center. The nuclear attack is possible, 248 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: they don't rule it out. It's you know, during the 249 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: Korean War, UM, the US did threaten to use nuclear weapons, 250 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: and there have been in the past US nuclear weapons, 251 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: you know, stationed in South Korea, and there is the 252 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: US nuclear umbrella, right, So there are reasons. It's a 253 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: small country in the middle of economic and political giants, um, 254 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: and it's a country that doesn't necessarily have any real allies, 255 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: you know, it has a relationship with the Chinese, relationship 256 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: with the Russians. Doesn't really trust that, you know, in 257 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: the case of something happening, not really. And you're looking 258 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: at a nuclear dense region as well, right, China has 259 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,439 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons, Russia has nuclear weapons, US has nuclear weapons, 260 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: and South Korea and Japan have nuclear weapons by default, 261 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: So there is a sense of insecurity that drives a 262 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: lot of their decisions. The North Koreans look at the 263 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: history um and especially you know from the Korean War 264 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: on and say that it's possible, no matter where you 265 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: go in Korea, North or South, you cannot escape the 266 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 1: dynamics created by the Korean War and the antagonistic relationship 267 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: that followed. It's one of the reasons North Korea is 268 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:35,360 Speaker 1: constantly rattling its saber, trying to look tough. It's one 269 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: of the reasons Kimill's hung embraced che later investing obscene 270 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: portions of his country's GDP to build up one of 271 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: the world's largest militaries. And it's why North Korea has 272 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: worked so hard to develop its own deterrent, a deterrent 273 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: that Kim jong nam was well aware of because remember 274 00:20:56,440 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: his rendezvous in Langkawee, Malaysia. A few days after that 275 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: hotel meeting with an American spy, Kim Jong Nam would 276 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: try to leave the country with multiple vials of an 277 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: antidote designed to combat the toxic nerve agent v X. 278 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: Kim Jong Nam knew something, and that's this. When Western 279 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: Powers began installing nuclear weapons in South Korea, the DPRK, 280 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: then two Poor to counteract the arsenal with atomic bombs 281 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: of its own, came up with a strategy one they 282 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: believed that could neuter the US is atomic power. North 283 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: Korea would build a stockpile of chemical weapons so large 284 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: it could end all human life as we know it, 285 00:21:45,440 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: and North Korea wouldn't be afraid to use it. In 286 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, as blood and bombs spilled over the 287 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,919 Speaker 1: Korean Peninsula, chemists in the United Kingdom were waging a 288 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: very different kind of battle against insects. The pesticide industry 289 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 1: was booming and Dr Ron J. Ghosh, a chemist working 290 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: for Imperial Chemical Industries in gelts Hill, England, was looking 291 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 1: for chemicals that could kill common pests, specifically mits. Ghost 292 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: was directed to look closely at secret research on a 293 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: group of toxic pesticides called g agents, which have been 294 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: developed by German scientists during the nineteen thirties. Glos went 295 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 1: to work, and in nineteen fifty two, at the height 296 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: of the Korean War, he and a fellow chemist named J. F. Newman, 297 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,719 Speaker 1: discovered a substance an organo phosphate esther of substitute amino 298 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: ethiol called Amaton. The men celebrated the discovery. Ghost was 299 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: convinced he had found the pesticide to end all pesticides. 300 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: Advertisers believed it too. By Amaton was being marketed across 301 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: the United Kingdom as the next great bug killer, but 302 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: within three years it would be pulled off the shelves. 303 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: Turns out Amaton was much more than an insecticide. It 304 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: was a nerve agent. So Ghosh went back to work. 305 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: He continued trying to turn the Nazi G agents into 306 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: effective and safe pesticides, but every time he attempted to 307 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: discover a less toxic substance, he failed. In fact, each 308 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: new advancement seemed to make the G agents more toxic. 309 00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: The most noxious, most deadly, most terrified rying agent Ghosh 310 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: concocted would be so potent that only a few milligrams 311 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: were needed to kill a human. It would be named 312 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:20,479 Speaker 1: Venomous Agent X. Today it's just called v X. And 313 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: that is where our stories collide. Because during the Korean War, 314 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: as American planes rain bombs and bullets on North Korean cities, 315 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: Kimilsung directed his military to build a labyrinth of underground 316 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 1: tunnels and bunkers for protection. North Korea hasn't stopped digging 317 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: since you might remember our friend historian Benjamin Young. They 318 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: remembered the years of the US air bombardment, and so 319 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 1: there's a reason why North Korea has built so many 320 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: of its military facilities under the ground, in mountainous ravines, 321 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: under mountains. They have a massive tunnel system. So North 322 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: Korea's history has made it into this very deeply paranoid, 323 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: almost subterranean system. Today, it's estimated that North Korea has 324 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 1: up to fifteen thousand underground layers acting as aircraft hangars, 325 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: material depots, and weapons storage facilities. It's believed the majority 326 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: of the country's military supplies are protected by these underground bunkers. 327 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: I think that one day, perhaps the regime will collapse 328 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: and we'll go then and we'll see just how huge 329 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: their tunnel system was underneath the ground, and just how 330 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: prepared they were for any sort of airbombardment. And that 331 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: might be one of the secrets that Kim Jong nam 332 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,639 Speaker 1: was harboring as the son of the dear leader. He 333 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 1: knew that these underground cities held North Korea's war chests 334 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: of chemical weapons, including what maybe the largest stockpile of 335 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: VX nerve agent in the world. Today, North Koreas cash 336 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: of chemical weapons is the world's third largest, lagging behind 337 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: only the US and Russia. The country is home to 338 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: at least eleven chemical weapons facilities, almost all of them 339 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: buried underground, that may produce and store up to five 340 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: thousand metric tons of these deadly agents. But truth be told, 341 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: nobody certain how much they really have. North Korea has 342 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: um you know, chemical weapons capability, the extent of which 343 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: we don't really know, but the willingness to use uh 344 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: is there. We do, however, have a good idea of 345 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: what's in North Korea's stockpile. Anthrax, smallpox, amaton, mustard, gas saren, 346 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: the plague, and yes, VX agent, all of which are 347 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: ready for their neighbors to the south or anyone else 348 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: who messes with them near their turf. North Korea has 349 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: the capability of attaching you know, chemical weapons, even to 350 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 1: their short range ballistic missiles. Chemill Song was right to 351 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: bet on chemical weapons. Chemical missiles are cheaper and potentially 352 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: more lethal than nuclear warheads. It would only take one 353 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: gallon of anthrax to end all human life. Indeed, for decades, 354 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: this chemical stockpile has been a remarkable deterrent and a 355 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: threatening bargaining chip. The US won't use its nukes because 356 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: that would compel the North to release its chemical weapons, 357 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: and the North won't use its chemical weapons because that 358 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 1: would compel the US to use its nukes. It's led 359 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,719 Speaker 1: to a strategic standoff, a menacing game of chicken that 360 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: allows North Korea to act belligerent lee with few consequences. 361 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: Anything else would be catastrophic. In the n nineties, the 362 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: Pentagon calculated the cost of a pre emptive strike on 363 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: North Korea. The results suggested that an attack would cost 364 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: the US more than a trillion dollars and require at 365 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 1: least a hundred thousand body bags just for American troops alone. 366 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: The potential loss of life in a second Korean conflict 367 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: is you know, millions of people. You have. You have 368 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: to remember that Soul the capital of South Korea. It's 369 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: only thirty miles away from the d m z Um 370 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: and about a quarter of the population lives there. Um 371 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: The response time that it takes to defend Soul and 372 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: the amount of damage that can be done very quickly 373 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: is enormously high. This standoff has done more than preserved 374 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: North Korea's existence. It's been a boon to the country's economy. 375 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: It essentially uses weapons of mass destruction to extort foreign 376 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: countries into lifting ancients. It's also a valuable export. These 377 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: chemical weapons can be shipped rogue nations and terrorist groups. 378 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,959 Speaker 1: North Korea never really admits to having chemical weapons are 379 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: actually using it. That again is Sue Kim, our ex 380 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: CIA analyst. But we know that it's actually tried to 381 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: transfer chemical weapons to other countries. It's got the technology 382 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: and equipment, so it should be a concern. In fact, 383 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: we know that North Korea exported chemical equipment to Syria 384 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: coincidentally around the same time Syrian President Bashar al Assad 385 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: was gassing his own citizens. Meanwhile, in the US, there's 386 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: practically no VX at all in accordance with the Chemical 387 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: Weapons Convention in agreement North Korea disregards the United States 388 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: has destroyed almost all of its stock of VX. Today, 389 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: one of America's largest collections of VX rockets. It's resting 390 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: at the bottom of the ocean, just off the coast 391 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: of Atlantic City, New Jersey. All of that's to say, 392 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: while North Korea is nuclear weapons get most of the attention. 393 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: Perhaps it's time the country's chemical arsenal commands more of 394 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: our scrutiny. We do talk constantly about the came regime's 395 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: missile development, the provocations and those are all of course 396 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: valid um incredible security concerns, but the chemical warfare component 397 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: um the cyber components, I think are just as deadly 398 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: and in some cases even more deadly. The chemical weapons 399 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: in combination with the ballistic missiles, can lead to, I 400 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: would say, much more broader, far reaching implications than the 401 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: time to think. Because of this perception that Earth crews backwards, 402 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: because it's it's poor, because weird has a funny looking reader, 403 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: we tend to sort of dismiss a lot of these 404 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: serious developments. I think it's an advantage for North Korea 405 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: to play this on all the while developing so many 406 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:18,239 Speaker 1: lethal options later to threaten the international community to use it, 407 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: or to actually do try to use it. As the 408 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: world found out in It's exactly the kind of weaponry 409 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: one might use too quickly and silently kill a target 410 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: in a very public place. Over the course of this podcast, 411 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: we've gone over a plethora of theories of who killed 412 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 1: Kim Jong nam and why was it Kim Jongan ensuring 413 00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 1: his throne wouldn't be jeopardized. Was it North Korea and 414 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: elites with an eye on his money making software. Was 415 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: it someone else in the regime who was threatened by 416 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: his reform minded ideas To be honest, It may not 417 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: just be one, because Kim jong Nam had evaded death before. 418 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 1: In the early two thousand's, somebody masterminded a plot to 419 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: kill him in Austria, but that, as you may remember, 420 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: was thwarted, and in shortly after Kim Jongan was annointed successor, 421 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: a North Korean spy paid a Chinese taxi driver to 422 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: run over Kim jong Nam with his car. The hit 423 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: and run failed, and in after Yoji Komi published his 424 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: tell all book, Kim jong Nam reportedly dodged another attack, 425 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 1: the details of which are murky, but according to South 426 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: Korean intelligence, the exiled prince was so distressed that he 427 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: wrote a letter to his brother pleading for his life. 428 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: Please withdraw the order to punish me and my family. 429 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: We have nowhere to hide. The only way to escape 430 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: is to choose suicide. No matter who was trying to 431 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 1: kill him, Kim jong Nam knew the bucks stopped with 432 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: his brother. It seems Kim jong N didn't listen, and 433 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: after Chang Song Tech was killed, North Korean spies apparently 434 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: began tailing Kim jong Nam's movements. Even if Kim jong 435 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: Nam wanted to divorce himself from all of his connections 436 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: in North Korea, it's not up to him. The regime 437 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: that the Kim jong N leadership has every interest to 438 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: keep tabs on this this brother one because of course 439 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: he was family, and too because of the potential threat 440 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: that he would pose to Kim jong N as the leader. 441 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: But actions, of course, can have unintended consequences, just as 442 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 1: the U. S air bombardment and nuclear weapons inadvertently encouraged 443 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: North Korea to build tunnels and beef up on chemical weapons, 444 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,240 Speaker 1: cutting off Kim jong nam slash fund had unexpected results too. 445 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: Kim jong Nam needed money. According to the Washington Post, 446 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: the circumstances may have quote thrust Kim jong Nam into 447 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: the arms of foreign intelligence services as he tried to 448 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:30,839 Speaker 1: maintain his lifestyle. So a very reliable source obviously can't name, 449 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: told me that Kim jong Nam had been providing intelligence 450 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:41,879 Speaker 1: to the CIA while he was living in exile. I mean, 451 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 1: we know that he was having to earn money for himself, 452 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: that it wasn't the beneficiary of the regime's larges anymore 453 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,839 Speaker 1: after Kim Jong nun took power. Um, so it stands, 454 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:56,879 Speaker 1: you know, it makes sense that he would be having 455 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: to earn a living, and you know what is his 456 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: more was unique marketable skill, I guess, is giving intelligence 457 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: about about Kim jongan and what's going on in North Korea. 458 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: Journalists at the Wall Street Journal would later corroborate five 459 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: fields reporting suggesting that Chong Nam occasionally met CIA handlers 460 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 1: and undisclosed locations in Malaysia and Singapore. He wasn't an 461 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 1: agent or anything like that, but he was providing the 462 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: information that he had. There have also been multiple reports 463 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: since then that he was doing the same for South 464 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: Korea also potentially Japan. To learn more, we prodded deeper 465 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:37,839 Speaker 1: with Sue Kim, hoping she'd spill some CIA secrets to us. 466 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: She was understandably unable to confirm these suspicions. You know, 467 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:48,359 Speaker 1: I can't really comment about how the the Intel organizations 468 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,359 Speaker 1: obtained sources, so I'm not sure if I could help 469 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: you with this question. But she was able to help 470 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,040 Speaker 1: provide us with the rationale. If the CIA did hypothetically 471 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,399 Speaker 1: see gout Tong Num, there would be I would say 472 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 1: great value because he has lived inside the country. Um. 473 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: He is the son of Kim jong so he knows 474 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,240 Speaker 1: a lot about the system. He knows a lot about 475 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: his family members. UM. He also knows how North Korea thinks. Um, 476 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,919 Speaker 1: not just the leadership, but just North Korean. I would say, 477 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: just the the culture. So there would be a lot 478 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 1: of value. And as much as there's a lot of 479 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: value for foreign intel services, it's going to be an 480 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 1: even greater threat for North Korea. We don't know what 481 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 1: Kim jong nam told the CIA or how long he 482 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 1: worked with them. All we know is that when Kim 483 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: jongan was announced his successor, intelligence agencies had little information 484 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: about him. They scramble to learn anything they could, and 485 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: what better source than his older brother. If the United 486 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,359 Speaker 1: States for South Korea were able to form relationship with 487 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: Kim Jong nam, think about how much more vulnerable Kim 488 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 1: Jong nan is going to feel about his decision making, 489 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: about his health, about his interesting quirks. And on the 490 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: day Kim jong nam met with the suspected CIA agent 491 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 1: in Langkawi, he took the man into his hotel room. There, 492 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: it's believed he shared intelligence from his computer. We know 493 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: this because days after Kim jong nam died, police found 494 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 1: evidence that somebody had extracted extensive amounts of data with 495 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: the USB drive. Cheng Nam would also try to leave 496 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,760 Speaker 1: the country with four bricks of cash, each bundle amounting 497 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: to around thirty dollars, and of course those vials of antidote. 498 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: Did Kim jong Nam request this his payment or did 499 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: the CIA offer it as an exchange. Honestly, nobody outside 500 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:03,600 Speaker 1: of those involved in the exchange knows, But we do 501 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 1: know that Kim Jongan's own spies may have been lurking 502 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,400 Speaker 1: in the shadows the DPR case seemed to be aware 503 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,359 Speaker 1: of Toeng Nam's itinerary. It's possible that because they were 504 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 1: tailing him, they knew that he was talking to American spies, 505 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 1: and if that's true, that would present yet another reason 506 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: for his half brother to want him out of the picture. 507 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,600 Speaker 1: The CIA has a history of trying to take down 508 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 1: foreign governments. It had tacitly endorsed the overthrow Vietnam's prime minister, 509 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: had helped organize the downfall of Chile's president, and had 510 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,720 Speaker 1: plotted to assassinate the Democratic Republic of Congo's first prime 511 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: minister with a deadly virus, And of course they famously 512 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: tried and failed to poison Fidel Castro's cigars, So what 513 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: was stopping the CIA from trying the same with Kim 514 00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: jong un. Sue Kim is wary of how much Tongu 515 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: Nam's links with the agency might have influenced North Korea's decisions. 516 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 1: I think it had much more to do with leadership insecurities. 517 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: The fact that this this oldest son who was roaming 518 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: about freely outside North Korea getting to enjoy life, occasionally 519 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: making these nonchalant comments about the North Korean system, the leadership, 520 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,280 Speaker 1: and and you know, just being critical about the country. 521 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 1: It was not going to be. It wasn't going to 522 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: reflect well, obviously upon Kim Jongan. North Korea watchers like 523 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: Michael Madden also questioned whether the CIA connection was really 524 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: all that significant. In his opinion, the prince was already 525 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: a marked man. Disregard all of us, disregard all of 526 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 1: the stuff about Kim Jong Nam being a source for 527 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: foreign intelligence. That's just a really nice story for the 528 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 1: news media. There'd be other motivations but that begs the question, 529 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 1: if there had been so many reasons to kill this 530 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:07,840 Speaker 1: man for decades, now, why did it take so long 531 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,759 Speaker 1: for North Korea to pull the trigger. Madden suggests the 532 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 1: reason Kim jong Nam lived until was because he still 533 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: had a number of advocates in the regime. There were 534 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,360 Speaker 1: other elites, people who considered Kim jong Nam as family. 535 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 1: There was Rios, a nineties something former hit man who 536 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: was like a grandfather to the prince. He died in November. 537 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 1: A few months later, a former female comrade of Kim 538 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,720 Speaker 1: Il Song, also close to Kim jong Nam, died as well. 539 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: By the end of Kim jong Nam's circle of influence 540 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 1: had either defected, We're trapped in prison camps or were 541 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: buried underground. He no longer had friends or family to 542 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: speak up for him. Were put in motion Kim jong 543 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,400 Speaker 1: Nam's assassination. I really think that's a huge factor. Madden 544 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: might be onto something, because in late North Korea spies 545 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:14,040 Speaker 1: began hatching one of the most elaborate assassination plots ever devised. 546 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,600 Speaker 1: Since Kim jong Nam enjoyed protection in China and was 547 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,800 Speaker 1: now spending time with foreign intelligence agents, the spies realized 548 00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 1: they had to be careful and strategic. So the hitman 549 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: likely decided that the best way to assassinate Kim Jong 550 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:36,800 Speaker 1: Nam was to kill him with a unique method, a 551 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:48,360 Speaker 1: method that was understated, bloodless, immediate, and immaculately lethal, deep underground, 552 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:53,920 Speaker 1: stalked away in its hidden tunnels, North Korea had the 553 00:41:54,080 --> 00:42:03,360 Speaker 1: perfect murder weapon on its hands. What we know about 554 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: VX nerve agent comes largely thanks to research done by 555 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,920 Speaker 1: Dr Van and Sim, the former director of human research 556 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 1: at Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland, where the U. S. Army 557 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 1: used to test the effects of various chemical weapons. From 558 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:24,120 Speaker 1: eight to ninety Under the direction of Dr Sim, more 559 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: than seven thousand American service members were exposed to substances 560 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:34,359 Speaker 1: like ketamine, LSD and nerve agents like the X. The 561 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 1: Army believed live human experiments were important not only for defense, 562 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,280 Speaker 1: but for intelligence gathering. As RAPI catch a Dorian writes 563 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,359 Speaker 1: in The New Yorker, Doctors like Sim wanted to know 564 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,719 Speaker 1: quote could an operative dose and adversary with a handshake, 565 00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: So Dr Sim started drugging American soldiers to find out. 566 00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 1: It sounds wildly unethical, and it is, but at the 567 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 1: time Dr Sim's work was well regarded. He was a 568 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:09,680 Speaker 1: fearless researcher who always tested every chemical on himself before 569 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,480 Speaker 1: exposing any soldiers to it. When he first encountered v 570 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: X in Sim intravenously infused small doses straight into his bloodstream. 571 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:26,319 Speaker 1: It nearly killed him, but it thanks to doctor Sim 572 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 1: and the servicemen he experimented on that we now know 573 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:33,120 Speaker 1: what v X does to the human body and what 574 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:38,400 Speaker 1: the North Korean spies had planned for Kim Jong Nam. 575 00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,920 Speaker 1: Upon contact, a small drop of VX quickly penetrates the 576 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,800 Speaker 1: skin and soaks into the bloodstream, and it wastes no time. 577 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 1: The nerve agent blocks enzygns that help your muscles to relax. 578 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 1: Within minutes, every muscle starts to contract uncontrollably. The eyes burned, 579 00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:02,760 Speaker 1: the pupils narrow, sweat beads as vision blurs, The chest titans, 580 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:07,400 Speaker 1: making breathing more and more difficult. Muscles twitch and tire 581 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 1: as the nose runs and the mouth drools. Fluid floods 582 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,760 Speaker 1: the airway, coughing, fits sputter as the whole body clenches. 583 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:21,440 Speaker 1: After just ten minutes, nerve ending scream with pain. The 584 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:26,040 Speaker 1: body can't handle this type of stimulation, so the muscles 585 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:32,400 Speaker 1: become exhausted, and eventually they curl in on themselves, contracting 586 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: to the point where the victim can no longer breathe. 587 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:43,320 Speaker 1: Consciousness fades, but not quickly enough. The victim's final thoughts 588 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:49,080 Speaker 1: will be consumed by one horrifying realization that their own 589 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:56,279 Speaker 1: body is suffocating them and it doesn't take much feex 590 00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:00,400 Speaker 1: to kill you. Dr sim concluded that it's it's just 591 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,800 Speaker 1: ten milligrams of v X, about the same as three 592 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: rain drops to kill a human. This has prompted the 593 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 1: CDC to call v X quote the most potent of 594 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 1: all nerve agents. Tasteless, odorless, and deadly in small, almost 595 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:24,879 Speaker 1: undetectable quantities. V X is also shockingly portable. It can 596 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,080 Speaker 1: be broken down into two harmless compounds, allowing two people 597 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,840 Speaker 1: to hold these separate ingredients in their hands with minimal 598 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,799 Speaker 1: risk to themselves. That is, until you mix the two 599 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:44,600 Speaker 1: compounds together. On the next and last episode of Big Brother, 600 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,440 Speaker 1: the elaborate means to which North Korea would go to 601 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: wash its hands of an assassination of international proportions, and 602 00:45:53,520 --> 00:46:01,320 Speaker 1: how Kim Jong Nam's death triggered a daring rescue Big 603 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,880 Speaker 1: Brother is a production of School of Humans and I 604 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,240 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and hosted by me Eat and Lee Lucas. 605 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:12,520 Speaker 1: Riley is our writer, co director and associate producer. Amelia 606 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,640 Speaker 1: Brock is our senior producer, co director and editor. Executive 607 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:21,200 Speaker 1: producers are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, Else Crowley, and Jason English. 608 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:25,480 Speaker 1: Our fact checker is Aaron Blakemore. Music composed by Jason 609 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:30,360 Speaker 1: Todd Shannon and Tune Walters. Original score mix by Vick Stafford. 610 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,800 Speaker 1: Audio editing by Jesse nice Swanger, Sound design and mixed 611 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:39,600 Speaker 1: by Harper W. Harris. Audio correction by Josh Fisher. Voice 612 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,920 Speaker 1: acting by Mark Chung, June Yune, Ben Holst, Thiago Lima 613 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,759 Speaker 1: and Mike Coscarelli. We'd like to acknowledge the work of 614 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:52,320 Speaker 1: Dr Bruce Cummings. Special thanks to Ryan Murdoch and Will Pearson. 615 00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:57,440 Speaker 1: Sound licensed from Critical Past. If you're enjoying the podcast, 616 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,239 Speaker 1: help us get the word out by leaving Obra in 617 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:23,440 Speaker 1: your favorite podcast app. Until next time, I'm evenly School 618 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,879 Speaker 1: of Humans m HM.