Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio
Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. Just a quick disclaimer,
Speaker 1: this episode was recorded pre pandemic. Welcome back to Katie's Crib.
Speaker 1: Today's topic HiT's very close to home for me as
Speaker 1: a mother of my two year old son, Albi. At
Speaker 1: a time when we're redefining masculinity and challenging social expectations
Speaker 1: that boys have to always be tough. I often think about,
Speaker 1: like how we raise our boys and keep them growing
Speaker 1: in the right direction. When I talk about this topic
Speaker 1: with my New Yorker mom friends. Because I'm here in
Speaker 1: New York shooting you guys, I was like, who could
Speaker 1: I talk to? And they said I had to bring
Speaker 1: in Dr Adam Price to help me navigate and talk
Speaker 1: about this topic. Dr Adam Price is a clinical psychologist
Speaker 1: with more than twenty five years of experience working with
Speaker 1: children and their families UM. He's published articles on family
Speaker 1: and child therapy in The Wall Street Journal and Family Circle,
Speaker 1: and author of the book He's Not Lazy Empowering your
Speaker 1: Son to Believe in himself. Great title. Thank you. I'm
Speaker 1: very excited to have you here to talk about what
Speaker 1: goes on in a boy's world and how we raise
Speaker 1: them to be good men. So I want to start
Speaker 1: with play because I know you I don't do prominently
Speaker 1: deal with older, more teenage boys, or I do now, Katie.
Speaker 1: But listen, before we start, I want to tell you
Speaker 1: I think it's so amazing that you're using your platform
Speaker 1: and your fame to do this and to have wonderful
Speaker 1: conversations for a couple of years now with you know
Speaker 1: about parenting. It's really you're doing a good thing here,
Speaker 1: very nice. Thank you. I appreciate that. So I work
Speaker 1: with teens. I have worked with kids from you know,
Speaker 1: from his youngest two. Yeah, great, So, like I have
Speaker 1: a two year old, and of course, being me, I
Speaker 1: was really into making sure he was playing with all
Speaker 1: sort of gender neutral toys and colors and all these
Speaker 1: kinds of things. You know, my kid is obsessed with trucks, buses,
Speaker 1: motorcycle helmets, scooters, wheels, and also he's obsessed with wrestling,
Speaker 1: like that's like a huge part of his play. And
Speaker 1: I hate it, like I'm uncomfortable by it. Why are
Speaker 1: you uncomfortable? I mean, I like it to a point,
Speaker 1: but once it starts getting like really aggressive, which he
Speaker 1: can do and be Um. I I'm just like, like,
Speaker 1: I don't like this, Like it's just like not how
Speaker 1: I physically communicate. Um. And I've read a lot of
Speaker 1: books about how important that is for boys in their
Speaker 1: way of playing, in their way of like physically touching
Speaker 1: with their dad or their friends or whatever that is. Um,
Speaker 1: So can you talk to me about boys how they play?
Speaker 1: And again, this is sort of sweeping generalizations in a way,
Speaker 1: because I don't think this is all boys. Well, whenever
Speaker 1: I talked to parents of young kids, get asked that question.
Speaker 1: So it really is on the minds of parents, especially today,
Speaker 1: and it's a great place to start. The thing is
Speaker 1: that boys and girls that their brains are not really
Speaker 1: that different. Uh. We'd like to think that there are
Speaker 1: boys and as a very different men and women are,
Speaker 1: but boys and girls brains aren't that different. Boys and
Speaker 1: girls developed the same skills, the same abilities, but at
Speaker 1: a different rate and in a different order, Like girls
Speaker 1: talk earlier and boys talks lower. Well, yeah, so here's
Speaker 1: that's a good example of So for example, a girl's
Speaker 1: vocabulary at twenty months is larger than boys, but only
Speaker 1: by about you know, ten or twelve words. Now those
Speaker 1: can be significant words, but it's those kind of settle differences.
Speaker 1: But physically there are differences. So you know the old
Speaker 1: adage boys will be boys. I think it's really true.
Speaker 1: And there are, of course societal norms. So you know,
Speaker 1: pink used to be the caller that boys are dressed
Speaker 1: in in the last two centuries ago, right in the
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, and then then that became what you heard
Speaker 1: it here, folks, are you kidding? Pink used to be
Speaker 1: for boys and blue used to be for girls. I
Speaker 1: don't know what caused the change. Um, And you know,
Speaker 1: and you know those those pictures in the eighteen hundreds
Speaker 1: of boys dressed and dresses little little toddlers, you know.
Speaker 1: So so there's there's a big societal imprint and impact.
Speaker 1: But I don't think there's anything wrong with boys being boys.
Speaker 1: And when I talk about these issues, and I talked
Speaker 1: to parents and around the country about about masculinity, I
Speaker 1: always stress that we want our boys to be boys. Um.
Speaker 1: The opposite to me of masculinity isn't femininity, it's authenticity.
Speaker 1: So the idea is to help boys beautiful, oh, thank you,
Speaker 1: to help boys to be comfortable with who they are,
Speaker 1: so I don't and with their feelings, but not to
Speaker 1: be any less rough and tumble. That's who boys are actually,
Speaker 1: you know. And boys are more from birth and more
Speaker 1: sensitive than girls. Boys are more fussy, Uh, they're more um,
Speaker 1: they need more reassurance. To be honest, I feel like
Speaker 1: my son is like very emotional compared to a lot
Speaker 1: of his girls his age that are that are you know,
Speaker 1: within a month of his birth date. Like, I just
Speaker 1: feel like he his emotional Um, he gets there quicker,
Speaker 1: you know, like he'll just cry, you know, and I
Speaker 1: try again, Like it's really funny. I really try to
Speaker 1: always be like it's okay, Like I want him to
Speaker 1: be able to cry and feel comfortable with doing so. Um,
Speaker 1: at what point is the line where like rough and
Speaker 1: tumble play is too much? Or do you hear these
Speaker 1: stories still of parents of boy little boy crying and
Speaker 1: parents saying like, don't cry, and and that's sort of right.
Speaker 1: So that's what happens. And by the way, I want
Speaker 1: to make sure that when you leave here, you're not
Speaker 1: going to be worried about your son playing with trucks
Speaker 1: and guns and all that stuff. Oh god, I couldn't
Speaker 1: even know, because honestly, what I've learned in motherhood more
Speaker 1: than anything else is whatever brings your son or daughter
Speaker 1: joy is what brings me joy. Like I'll be on
Speaker 1: the plane leaving my son for a day and all
Speaker 1: I'm doing is videotaping any truck to send to my
Speaker 1: husband's But you know, like, because I can't see a
Speaker 1: truck without thinking of my son, and we're both actors,
Speaker 1: I don't give a shit about trucks. It's really hard,
Speaker 1: it's really hard to change these these norms when I
Speaker 1: was and they're fine. I mean, I really want to
Speaker 1: be reassuring to you and the parents that are listening.
Speaker 1: Kids need limits, and boys need more limits and girls
Speaker 1: so you know, obviously, um, when they're when they're rough
Speaker 1: and tumble becomes too out of control, then it's your
Speaker 1: job to step in because then you're teaching them to
Speaker 1: regulate themselves and to do it for them when they can't. Um.
Speaker 1: But but just the kind of thing they do, they've
Speaker 1: got a lot of energy. God, there's a boy code
Speaker 1: and you even refer to it, you know from a
Speaker 1: young age. Boys here, big boys don't cry, grow a pair,
Speaker 1: shake it off, you know, And when when when boys
Speaker 1: are not tough enough, they're told that they're being a girl. Right.
Speaker 1: So boys hear this, and so there becomes this boy
Speaker 1: code that that you can never be you know, a worse,
Speaker 1: a nerd h the dreaded effort, you know which, which
Speaker 1: we don't like to hear anymore. But kids call each
Speaker 1: other that, you know all the time. Um, And so
Speaker 1: boys learning at a young age that they have to
Speaker 1: hide a part of themselves. Because boys and girls prove
Speaker 1: themselves in different ways. This is really interesting, and if
Speaker 1: you think about it, it it will make sense. Girls prove
Speaker 1: themselves by who they know, by their social network. This
Speaker 1: is why when girls get to be in middle school
Speaker 1: there's a whole mean girl phenomena, and why girls are
Speaker 1: more cooperative in school because they want to please a teacher.
Speaker 1: The boys don't really give a hoot because for boys,
Speaker 1: social status comes from what they can do. Who can
Speaker 1: throw a football at the farthest, who can run the fastest,
Speaker 1: even beat a video game. It's it's unfortunately not who
Speaker 1: got straight a's or who scored you know, the lead
Speaker 1: in the school musical. But this is how boys proved
Speaker 1: themselves and and men have to do this too. We're
Speaker 1: always proving ourselves, not to women, but to other men.
Speaker 1: And that's just wiring. It's it's our society and it's
Speaker 1: and it's it's the messages that we're giving, we're giving
Speaker 1: our boys. And so when does that happen? You know,
Speaker 1: it probably happens. I mean I've seen it. The little
Speaker 1: soccer field were called a swarm ball, you know, when
Speaker 1: the kids were three and four. You know, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe that's a little young, but big boys don't cry.
Speaker 1: And I've seen parents say the kids, that's probably not
Speaker 1: the best message. No, you don't want to do that.
Speaker 1: What do you want to say when a boy cries?
Speaker 1: You want to just let him cry, you know, and
Speaker 1: let him get his feelings out. I unless he's having
Speaker 1: a temperate tantra, mean, you need to uh, you need
Speaker 1: to help him to regulate again. But I had a
Speaker 1: young man in office, he's a college student, the other
Speaker 1: night and he was really falling apart, you know, he
Speaker 1: was really under tremendous stress, and he kept almost crying
Speaker 1: that cheers would almost emerge, and then he would hold back,
Speaker 1: and I said, you should cry, you know, it's going
Speaker 1: to make you feel better. And eventually he did, but
Speaker 1: it was so humiliating. We can talk about shame too.
Speaker 1: It was so humiliated to get into that. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: for him to even in front of his therapist. I've
Speaker 1: known him for many years now, you know, since he
Speaker 1: was a high school student, and he trust me. But
Speaker 1: it still is just that loss of control. So yeah,
Speaker 1: you let him cry and we can get into it
Speaker 1: more in terms of, you know, some of the other things. Interesting. Um, so,
Speaker 1: where does this go into bullying in school? I know
Speaker 1: that that word is like, Wow, I feel like it's
Speaker 1: used a lot. I think it's terrible and horrifying. And
Speaker 1: I haven't gotten to that place yet. But like the
Speaker 1: first time my kid is bullied or is bullying, Oh
Speaker 1: my god, what the hell would I do or will
Speaker 1: I do when my son's bullying? Well, I don't think
Speaker 1: your son is going to be a bully. Oh we
Speaker 1: don't know. But but a bully is different than someone
Speaker 1: who's being too aggressive, a boy who's being too aggressive
Speaker 1: or two mean. And the thing is that we can't
Speaker 1: raise boys or girls to be so sensitive. And I
Speaker 1: think we're really veering in that direction, uh, in a
Speaker 1: in a really scary way. Um, these days, a lot
Speaker 1: of people write about that now, but we we can't
Speaker 1: raise them to be too sensitive or to always need protection. Um.
Speaker 1: I'll say something in a minute that may contradict that
Speaker 1: a little bit, but but I think that's true. So
Speaker 1: just like you have to, you know, tolerate your son's
Speaker 1: being a little aggressive. That's going to be a part
Speaker 1: of boyhood. And teachers aren't going to see it because
Speaker 1: it happens in the less structure of times at school.
Speaker 1: It happens on the playground, it happens in jim class,
Speaker 1: are in lunch. You're not gonna necessarily here that he's
Speaker 1: being mean or bullying unless someone tells you. Um, if
Speaker 1: someone tells you that, I'll tell you right now. The reactions.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be like, oh my god, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1: And my husband's going to be like quick to the
Speaker 1: like disproving them. He's going to be quick to like,
Speaker 1: what what did he say? Well, I don't think he
Speaker 1: said like you know what I mean. Like, my husband's
Speaker 1: like very um and I love that about him, but
Speaker 1: he will want to make sure that all the facts
Speaker 1: are straight. You know, Well, that's good. He's what's your
Speaker 1: son's name, Albi? Albi, so he's got Albie's back. Yes,
Speaker 1: oh so that's great. But here's here's a really helpful
Speaker 1: parenting tip. The parenting tip is not to talk. Holy oakes,
Speaker 1: just listen. I have to shut up instead of my
Speaker 1: husband and we're both talkers. Well yeah, you're your your actress,
Speaker 1: so you're going to be talked to us, and your
Speaker 1: son's gonna have to learn to keep up with that.
Speaker 1: But but the thing is that that it's really important,
Speaker 1: even at a young age, to understand not just the
Speaker 1: child's perspective. We think empathy is understanding the child's perspective,
Speaker 1: but it's really important to understand how that perspective makes
Speaker 1: sense to them, you know, not necessarily to us. And
Speaker 1: once you get there with with a kid and you
Speaker 1: listen and you ask questions, and also just be quiet,
Speaker 1: because quiet lets other people have the space to talk,
Speaker 1: even little ones. Um, you're gonna understand a little bit
Speaker 1: more about about what's going on if you get the message,
Speaker 1: you know, uh, I'll be kicked, you know billion in
Speaker 1: school today the other day I was talking. It was
Speaker 1: it was kind of similar talking to fourteen year old kid,
Speaker 1: who who's whose friend? Who? Someone who wanted to be
Speaker 1: friends with him and asked him a sensitive question about
Speaker 1: when he was going on to the next level of school.
Speaker 1: Because this this young man because of some learning difficulties
Speaker 1: that repeated a great early on. So he ghosted, he
Speaker 1: ghoested the kid, and he got back through the older brother.
Speaker 1: So the parents were wonderful, parents have done everything for
Speaker 1: this kid. Um, but we're you know, and I too
Speaker 1: were thinking, okay, so this is an opportunity to talk
Speaker 1: about how he feels about his learning issues and how
Speaker 1: to deal with that situation. So I started doing that,
Speaker 1: went down that road. Um. I asked him, you know,
Speaker 1: tell me what you think, and he said, well, I'll
Speaker 1: tell you something. I don't like that kid. Most people
Speaker 1: don't like the kids, so I don't want to be
Speaker 1: friends with that kid. So if I wanted to be
Speaker 1: friends with that kid, I would have never goes to him.
Speaker 1: I would have told him what the deal is. But
Speaker 1: it was easier for me because I don't want to
Speaker 1: encourage the friendship. So I'm sure both perspectives are true,
Speaker 1: but you know, that's his perspective. So I think that
Speaker 1: for most parents whose kids aren't too aggressive and aren't
Speaker 1: getting calls all the time, I mean, that's a whole
Speaker 1: other issue. Right then it's it's important you can tell
Speaker 1: you Adam not to be so defensive at first because
Speaker 1: he wants to hear from Albi's perspective, Because then that
Speaker 1: gives you a place to start talking to him about
Speaker 1: what's an appropriate way to express yourself or to push
Speaker 1: back or to stick up for yourself. So I think
Speaker 1: that that's that's really crucial. I want to go back
Speaker 1: and just talk about the other side of the bulling,
Speaker 1: which is being bullied. And I want to go back
Speaker 1: to because I said earlier, I was going to contradict
Speaker 1: something I said, so I want to be true to
Speaker 1: my promise. Um. So, so kids boys do need to
Speaker 1: know how to handle themselves on the playground. And so
Speaker 1: when I'm working with with kids, I often talk to
Speaker 1: them about how they recover because sometimes it's just pushing
Speaker 1: and shoving and name calling. And no one likes to
Speaker 1: be called names. But if your boy, you have to
Speaker 1: be able to laugh it off and call it get
Speaker 1: another you know, another name. If you're too sensitive, then
Speaker 1: you're gonna get bullied. You get bullied more so, how
Speaker 1: a kid recovers, it's really it's important to teach them
Speaker 1: that even though you're hurting inside, if it's just normal
Speaker 1: kind of you know, just kind of jostling in the
Speaker 1: guys of fun, you have to be able to kind
Speaker 1: of keep up with that because if you don't, you're
Speaker 1: gonna get bullied more. And kids can be really mean.
Speaker 1: You know, they don't have they don't have the some
Speaker 1: of the social controls that we as adults like to
Speaker 1: think we have. If you live in New York and
Speaker 1: you drive, you know that or O L is much worse,
Speaker 1: Oh my god, much worse. Yeah, you know, you have
Speaker 1: to be able to talk to somebody. And this is
Speaker 1: where it gets sticky, because I've worked with kids who
Speaker 1: I work with them in two thousand, two thousand nineteen.
Speaker 1: They come in and they say, yeah, I was bullied
Speaker 1: last year, and I'm like, I saw you every day
Speaker 1: every week last year, you know, once a week. Why
Speaker 1: didn't you tell me? Because they're embarrassed, they're humiliated, and
Speaker 1: then they don't want parents to get involved, the teacher
Speaker 1: to get involved, because it makes it worse. But I
Speaker 1: do think sometimes, especially when they're little, if it's a
Speaker 1: repeated pattern, an adult has to get involved. Hopefully the
Speaker 1: adult is sensitive and can deal with it because not
Speaker 1: every not every educator is in terms of dealing with
Speaker 1: it so that it doesn't have ramifications on the kid,
Speaker 1: but into what's happened. And you know, I practice here
Speaker 1: in New York and in New Jersey, and in New
Speaker 1: Jersey they are bulling laws now a number of years. Um,
Speaker 1: there's a whole procedure that teachers and administrators have to
Speaker 1: go to a bulling is reported paperwork conversation. It really
Speaker 1: backfires though, I feel like that's yeah, that seems not
Speaker 1: because a kid being bullied probably wants and help, but
Speaker 1: they also I don't want to shine too much attention
Speaker 1: on it or yes, because it'll get worse and worse
Speaker 1: and worse, right right, right, So you have to choose
Speaker 1: who you're going to tell. But usually when you're at
Speaker 1: that level, that young person has already has the attention
Speaker 1: of the schools. Um. Wow. The other thing I tell
Speaker 1: kids who are bullied is listen. I've had a few
Speaker 1: who I'd like to say I kicked the kid when
Speaker 1: no one's looking, but you know, I can't say that
Speaker 1: but stand up and yell at them, make them embarrassed,
Speaker 1: draw attention to what they're doing so, you know, you
Speaker 1: can shut them down. And I feel like into bullying
Speaker 1: is such a thing. I feel like you could stand
Speaker 1: up today and say like you're bullying, Like you could
Speaker 1: say that very loud, and people would look probably and
Speaker 1: get attention for him. I had the other experience, which
Speaker 1: doesn't it's not so flattering to me, but but it
Speaker 1: really is, because this is a part of a normal
Speaker 1: experience in seventh grade, when a lot of this happens.
Speaker 1: There was a kid that everybody picked on and I
Speaker 1: wasn't particularly nice to him. I wasn't I didn't beat
Speaker 1: him up, I didn't, you know, but I wasn't nice
Speaker 1: to him and he knew it. And we had our
Speaker 1: lockers next to each other, so you know, I would
Speaker 1: close his locker, turn his locker around every once in
Speaker 1: a while. One day he can I get goose bumps
Speaker 1: telling you. And this was a long time ago. I'm
Speaker 1: a little older. He said to me. He said, Adam,
Speaker 1: why do you do that? Why do you treat me
Speaker 1: that way? You know, why do you pick on me?
Speaker 1: And I said, you know what? And I believe his
Speaker 1: name was Johnny said, I have no idea, and he
Speaker 1: taught me this kid who everybody else picked on. But
Speaker 1: he taught me such an important lesson of compassion when
Speaker 1: I was that age, I never picked on him again. Um,
Speaker 1: you're like, I don't know why. Yeah, he just he
Speaker 1: just kind of asked it flat out. Tell me about consent? Consent? Yes,
Speaker 1: do you talk a lot about this right now with
Speaker 1: people and doing lectures about it, Like you must be
Speaker 1: traveling the Try State area talking about the country and
Speaker 1: the country because it's really on people's minds, and you know, consent.
Speaker 1: So my take on consent is that you're not. Your
Speaker 1: son is not too old for you to ask me
Speaker 1: that question, because I think that what we need to
Speaker 1: help There's a few things, but one is emotional intelligence.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about that, but helping children understand from an
Speaker 1: early age of value driven conversation about sex. Now, it
Speaker 1: depends what your val use are, but the point is
Speaker 1: to talk about sex with kids in the context of
Speaker 1: a relationship, in the context of you know what the
Speaker 1: meaning is, um, because that's what I think will help
Speaker 1: them later on. You know, I remember when I was
Speaker 1: I think I was in seventh grade two. My mother,
Speaker 1: you know, it's still amazed that she did this. We're
Speaker 1: getting sex education. And again this was seventy to nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy three. UM, and she said to me, Adam, I
Speaker 1: want you to know whatever they tell you a school
Speaker 1: about sex, they're not going to tell you one thing.
Speaker 1: And I said, oh God, I don't want to have
Speaker 1: this conversation with you. But what is it? And she
Speaker 1: said sex is fun and sex is pleasurable and that
Speaker 1: was like, that was great sex education. UM. So you know,
Speaker 1: there's interesting things that studies that have happened. Uh, people
Speaker 1: have looked at whether the just say no abstinence message
Speaker 1: helps it actually causes higher team pregnancy. Not a good
Speaker 1: message because it's not sex relationships much a complicated that's
Speaker 1: so black or white. It's like ridiculous. It's not whether
Speaker 1: you believe in it or not, it's just that that's
Speaker 1: not a good message. Peggy Orgstein, who's written about girls
Speaker 1: and I think she's coming out with a book about boys,
Speaker 1: she had a piece in the New York Times about
Speaker 1: about this issue, and she she looked at Holland and
Speaker 1: there's a much lower incidence of teen pregnancy in Holland.
Speaker 1: Kids have sexual relationships, but girls are much more able,
Speaker 1: according to the research, to be able to say what
Speaker 1: they do want to do, what they don't want to do.
Speaker 1: And girls report, compared to girls in the United States,
Speaker 1: that their first sexual encounter is within a relationship, a
Speaker 1: loving relationship, much more so than here that is just
Speaker 1: a hook up. The reason is because people are more
Speaker 1: comfortable with sex in Holland, you know, and we can
Speaker 1: have all sorts of stereotypes, but it isn't more liberal society.
Speaker 1: But they talk to kids more about it. Teachers talk
Speaker 1: to kids about it, parents talk to kids about it.
Speaker 1: They do it from an early age. So my advice
Speaker 1: is star talking about sex and get over your discomfort
Speaker 1: talking about it, because you're the one who wants to
Speaker 1: give the important messages. The concern is is the messages
Speaker 1: that boys get. It's going back to what we're talking
Speaker 1: about a little bit before, you know, which is be tough. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, don't show any emotions any time you enter
Speaker 1: into intimacy with with another person. It's a contract. And
Speaker 1: and kids are going to be having sex, you know,
Speaker 1: so parents have to appreciate that they need to talk
Speaker 1: about it. Um. And if your values are that you
Speaker 1: should wait till marriage to have sex, that's okay. You
Speaker 1: can include that in the message, but you're still talking
Speaker 1: about when they get married and have sex because um,
Speaker 1: you know, it has to be a mutual relationship, um,
Speaker 1: where both people are consenting and it's not just to
Speaker 1: hook up, you know. And this is more getting into
Speaker 1: talking to teens about it. Oh my god, I'm no.
Speaker 1: I'm so scared. What is that? Even, like I can't
Speaker 1: even imagine. But I do hope that my household is
Speaker 1: one where we talk about that stuff. I mean, I
Speaker 1: also want to respect his privacy, and you know, I
Speaker 1: don't want to know everything if he doesn't want me
Speaker 1: to know everything. But I also I really want there
Speaker 1: to be an open conversation about what it is. And
Speaker 1: when does that start to happen. I mean it's early, right,
Speaker 1: I mean I was in nanny for ten years and
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I was nanny for a very long time,
Speaker 1: and I remember around maybe five six seven, the boys
Speaker 1: became obsessed with playing doctor with me, and every time
Speaker 1: I would go like p in a public restroom, they
Speaker 1: were trying to climb underneath the restroom door and they
Speaker 1: kept asking me to see They kept saying, I want
Speaker 1: to see your butt, I want to see your but
Speaker 1: they wanted to see my vaginas when they were asking
Speaker 1: to see and they went to the parents and I said, um, hey,
Speaker 1: I just want to let you guys know that this
Speaker 1: is like a constant conversation at this point, and the
Speaker 1: kids are are being brought to tears that they have
Speaker 1: not seen me naked, and I don't know what's happening.
Speaker 1: And the mom was like, oh, it's because they've never
Speaker 1: Like she she was very a very private mom, didn't
Speaker 1: ever shower with her kids. Yeah, you know, um, her
Speaker 1: son's I don't think i'd ever seen a girl's body parts,
Speaker 1: to be honest, and I think they were really fucking curious.
Speaker 1: But I just I mean, that's already not my house.
Speaker 1: I mean we're actors. My son has been like backstage
Speaker 1: on Broadway and all the girls are like taking all
Speaker 1: their clothes to make their quick changes. So like he's good,
Speaker 1: but like, I do think that it's still a very
Speaker 1: hard subject for people to talk about. You know, that's
Speaker 1: a wonderful example. I appreciate you bringing that up. They're
Speaker 1: just curious, right, That's not really about sex, that's about curiosity.
Speaker 1: So it's an opportunity to to say to them, Listen,
Speaker 1: there are certain things that are private that we don't
Speaker 1: show other people. You don't show other people, you know,
Speaker 1: your penis. Um. You don't ask to see someone else's
Speaker 1: penis or vaginant unless they give you permission. I guess
Speaker 1: maybe you don't say that to you know, younger kid,
Speaker 1: although they do play doctor. It's very very innocent. You know,
Speaker 1: we tend to be puritanical in this country about sex.
Speaker 1: Do you think that that's led to so many of
Speaker 1: the issues and problems. Well, that and and if you
Speaker 1: want to get into, you know, talking about emotional intelligence.
Speaker 1: You know, let's go back to what I said initially.
Speaker 1: The opposite of masculinity is in femininity. It's authenticity. And
Speaker 1: I say this to teenagers and young men all the time. Um.
Speaker 1: My definition of being secure as a man is being
Speaker 1: able to at times be vulnerable enough to be able
Speaker 1: to say to a young woman, is it okay if
Speaker 1: I do this? Um, it's being secure enough that when
Speaker 1: you are feeling emotional, and when you do have things
Speaker 1: you need to talk about, you are able to talk
Speaker 1: to people that you trust, not to everybody, but to
Speaker 1: people that you trust. And if you're in a situation
Speaker 1: where you need to cry and with someone that you
Speaker 1: feel like you cry to. It's not a threat to
Speaker 1: your masculinity because you wanted to talk about shame. This
Speaker 1: is what happens because of the boy code, because of
Speaker 1: how we're brought up. Any time a man feels vulnerable
Speaker 1: or feels exposed, it leads to shame, and it's shame
Speaker 1: is an incredibly powerful emotion. And to me, every emotion
Speaker 1: is okay, but shame is really destructive. It's hard for
Speaker 1: me to help someone who's a shame because I don't
Speaker 1: want to talk about the issues, and shame says not
Speaker 1: I did something wrong, but I am wrong. Right, that's
Speaker 1: Brendan Brown. Yeah, I was just going to bring her up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's amazing, Um, she's her work has been so helpful.
Speaker 1: But I quote that line all the time because you
Speaker 1: can feel wrong. Guilt is okay, but there is nothing
Speaker 1: wrong with being vulnerable. And so when when men and
Speaker 1: boys feel that sense of vulnerability, they shut down and
Speaker 1: then it prevents them from asking for support, you know.
Speaker 1: And so that's that's part of why the suicide rate
Speaker 1: for boys is higher than girls. It's part of why
Speaker 1: UM suicide is the second leading cause of death after
Speaker 1: unintentional accidents for boys. For boys, Yeah, fifteen to thirty four.
Speaker 1: Now that's partly because they don't die have heart attacks.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not just I don't want to make
Speaker 1: it exaggerated, but but when I was doing some talks
Speaker 1: out in Colorado, was presenting with a woman from Colorado,
Speaker 1: and she said, no, in Colorado, it's the number one
Speaker 1: cause of you know, of deaths. Um. Wow, So do
Speaker 1: you think today's birds and the bees talk that that's
Speaker 1: not just one talk? Like one big ass talk to me,
Speaker 1: seems far more pressure than like lots of opportunities and
Speaker 1: small talks along the way. Listen, we we we all
Speaker 1: know you're a great actress. I can tell by the
Speaker 1: questions you're asking that you're a great parent too, because
Speaker 1: you know saying you know, these are many conversations you
Speaker 1: have over time. Um, is really true. You know, boys
Speaker 1: and girls start kissing, so when they're in fourth grade
Speaker 1: or third grade, you know, I kissed a girl. I
Speaker 1: mean it's like a little kiss, and so then I
Speaker 1: did that in third or fourth grade. There you go.
Speaker 1: But it's just a comment. It's like, oh, that's really nice.
Speaker 1: When you kiss somebody. You have really strong feelings for them,
Speaker 1: you know, and as long as the person wants to
Speaker 1: kiss you back, um, that's okay. You know. If they don't, though,
Speaker 1: you have to respect them. But you bring up another
Speaker 1: really interesting point that reminds me of a young man
Speaker 1: I work with who could have probably had any girl
Speaker 1: he wanted, and I would like to say New York City.
Speaker 1: He was that good looking and charismatic. He was really
Speaker 1: into the whole New York City independent school thing. Um,
Speaker 1: So I was kind of worried about that. I said,
Speaker 1: you know, we gotta talk about this. We gotta talk
Speaker 1: about consent. And he said, he said, Dr Price, My
Speaker 1: mother has been very clear with me about how to
Speaker 1: treat women and how to respect them. And you know
Speaker 1: that's not that's not a mindy I would ever trespass.
Speaker 1: So I think that's that's important for moms to be strong,
Speaker 1: like you said about that. It's also important on the
Speaker 1: other side, though, to tell boys to protect themselves right.
Speaker 1: Don't be in a room alone with the girl, you know. Um,
Speaker 1: oh my god, have you seen it go that way? Well,
Speaker 1: of course it goes both ways. Um, there's a there's
Speaker 1: often something that happens, you know, Um, But you know,
Speaker 1: make sure that you know, you like seven minutes it
Speaker 1: heavens like not a great idea. Totally played that as well,
Speaker 1: but I to, to be honest, I was a big
Speaker 1: fan of a spin the bottle situation because I was
Speaker 1: comfortable with like a peck. But the seven minutes in Heaven,
Speaker 1: like I went in there like twice and I didn't
Speaker 1: do anything. I mean, I just like hid in like
Speaker 1: racks of turtlenecks. Like I just was like completely horrified
Speaker 1: and waiting for the seven minutes. And I was like, hey,
Speaker 1: how are you, like, you know, like, can we talk
Speaker 1: about oral sex? Because this is when I'm in pet peeves.
Speaker 1: It amazes me. But it's still pretty common for girls
Speaker 1: to give boys oral sex and um, when they don't
Speaker 1: necessarily want to, but they feel the pressure to do so.
Speaker 1: So when I'm working with a girl or a boy
Speaker 1: and I hear about this happening, I say to the girl,
Speaker 1: did he give you oral sex? No? And then I
Speaker 1: say why not? You know you're supposed to experience pleasure also,
Speaker 1: so that's that's a part of the message of consent.
Speaker 1: And I say to the boy too, and he's like no,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, then don't let her go down
Speaker 1: there because that's not fair, you know. Um. So the
Speaker 1: message of consent is um that it should be. This
Speaker 1: is what boys need to hear. Your job is to
Speaker 1: make it pleasurable for the girl, right. And so when
Speaker 1: boys get get this idea that it's not about that,
Speaker 1: it's about how many girls I can have sex with,
Speaker 1: her I can hug up with and what's my number?
Speaker 1: And that you know, that's all about that kind of
Speaker 1: macho masculinity that's really not what it's a out. Um.
Speaker 1: And so you know, if you're hooking up and this
Speaker 1: is a different kind of conversation with the kidder. When
Speaker 1: you hook up, you know you're you're you're there to
Speaker 1: make sure that she's comfortable and that she has has
Speaker 1: a good time. And so you know what I'd like
Speaker 1: to do is interview teenagers and pick their brains and
Speaker 1: see what they're thinking about. Yeah, you're so good at
Speaker 1: using the term hook up, Like I feel like I
Speaker 1: haven't said that in fifteen years. Oh it's so funny
Speaker 1: because my friends said, you want to hook up for
Speaker 1: lunch and I'm like, yeah, I want to talk to
Speaker 1: you about your book, which is incredible. Um, thank you again,
Speaker 1: you guys. It's called He's not lazy, empowering your son
Speaker 1: to believe in himself, which again, I have a two
Speaker 1: year old, but I'm afraid of I don't do well
Speaker 1: with laziness at all. Like I am sure you can tell,
Speaker 1: I can tell. Yeah, I know. You don't get to
Speaker 1: be where you are with by being lazy and not
Speaker 1: at all. So tell me a little bit about your book.
Speaker 1: So this is something that I love to talk about, obviously,
Speaker 1: But when I wrote the book, there wasn't a lot
Speaker 1: of research on adolescents and motivation, but there was a
Speaker 1: lot of adults. And the key ingredient is just common sense.
Speaker 1: It's autonomy. Right, if you have the autonomy to make
Speaker 1: a decision about what you're doing, then you're going to
Speaker 1: be much more motivated to do it. Now, there's two
Speaker 1: problems with that. The first problem is that what we
Speaker 1: have forgotten now is that autonomy comes with accountability. So
Speaker 1: if you make a choice, you know, to stay up
Speaker 1: at a sleepover, you know, till two in the morning
Speaker 1: or three in the morning, which is lots of fun,
Speaker 1: you know, you're still accountable to go to Sunday school
Speaker 1: or soccer practice next morning. Um, and so what happens
Speaker 1: is that we rescue kids. And it's it's parents obviously,
Speaker 1: you know, it's the whole overparenting hell or coopter parenting phenomena.
Speaker 1: But um, schools do it too. Um. So the more
Speaker 1: that we like kids off the hook, we are robbing
Speaker 1: them of the opportunity to learn earn from their mistakes.
Speaker 1: And that's what autonomy is about, right, It's about I
Speaker 1: did this, I made a choice, it worked out. I'll
Speaker 1: do it again. It didn't work out, maybe a couple
Speaker 1: of times, and I'll stop doing it. Right. So that's
Speaker 1: such an important lesson, but it's also the critical factor
Speaker 1: in in in helping kids to be motivated. What if
Speaker 1: your kid just doesn't like school? So so that's the
Speaker 1: second thing, um, and then after this can ask you
Speaker 1: a question, Oh please open book. Um. The second thing
Speaker 1: is that in school you don't have a lot of choice, right,
Speaker 1: You're you have to do what you have to do,
Speaker 1: and it can be really boring. And not every kid
Speaker 1: is able to delay gratification, to be able to see
Speaker 1: that what they do now is going to pay off
Speaker 1: later and that they can wait. You know, there's a
Speaker 1: famous marshmallow, you know, study that was done years ago.
Speaker 1: Um so so psychologist. I think he was at Stanford.
Speaker 1: He put it three or four year old in a
Speaker 1: room with two marshmallows and a videotaping videotaping and these
Speaker 1: were all his kids peers, and he said to them,
Speaker 1: you can eat that marshmallow now, but if you wait
Speaker 1: till I come back, you can have too. And you
Speaker 1: see these kids, that's what's so funny. They'd be on
Speaker 1: when when little girl went under the table, they would
Speaker 1: lick the marshmallow and then they would put it down.
Speaker 1: He foiled these kids. And the kids that waited did
Speaker 1: better in college. You know, they went to better college
Speaker 1: is more competitive colleges. It's amazing. This was ten years ago.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. But gratifications. So some kids just can't
Speaker 1: do that. The thing I tell parents, though, and what
Speaker 1: I really I really want to be reassuring, and so
Speaker 1: what I tell parents is that if that's your son,
Speaker 1: that's okay. Yeah, And you've got to learn a different way, yeah,
Speaker 1: or you're gonna you're you're gonna grow up. You know,
Speaker 1: there are there's a specific part of the brain that
Speaker 1: doesn't mature until sometimes until six and that's the prefrontal
Speaker 1: cortex where we planning, uh, impulse control executive function. That's
Speaker 1: my brother. Yeah, Like I knew I wanted to be
Speaker 1: an actor from the dam. It was too It was
Speaker 1: very easy for me to have like a passion and
Speaker 1: a line in a drive. But like my brother was
Speaker 1: like someone who was like jack of all trades. Like
Speaker 1: he was good at a lot of stuff, but he
Speaker 1: wasn't like particularly obsessed with anyone thing. He was good
Speaker 1: at sports, he played trumpet, like he was a great kid,
Speaker 1: but like he went to school, the school that my
Speaker 1: mom thought he should go to, and you know, and
Speaker 1: then he went there, didn't know what's major in and
Speaker 1: was failing out because he became president of the fraternity.
Speaker 1: And at like twenties six, he like got his ship
Speaker 1: together and he's like the best, Like you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, The whole thing turned around. But there were
Speaker 1: years where we were completely horrified. Scientists would tell you
Speaker 1: that that's because of what happened in his brain. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's really interesting. So I'm not I'm not a lazy,
Speaker 1: fair parent. I don't believe that that we should just
Speaker 1: like kids, give him a shovel and let them take
Speaker 1: themselves into all they can't get out of um. That's
Speaker 1: why I talked about in the book, I have a program,
Speaker 1: But the program is really about not micromanaging them and
Speaker 1: giving them some space to the sweet spot. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: it's it's hard for a lot of parents to fag
Speaker 1: you're out. But it's also about you know, duct tape parenting.
Speaker 1: And and then it's about not freaking out. And listen
Speaker 1: where I practice. You know here in New York, and
Speaker 1: you know the very competitive, affluent families. So when I
Speaker 1: say to them, it's your sons. You can ask your
Speaker 1: son to get a B, but it's their choice to
Speaker 1: get an A. No, it's not. It's a nice choice,
Speaker 1: but it is. That's my philosophy. But the messages don't worry,
Speaker 1: you know, said limits um, and and be patient and
Speaker 1: especially if they have something that they're passionate about I'm
Speaker 1: afraid of. I want to raise someone who is comfortable
Speaker 1: in his masculine, who is comfortable in his authenticity. Thank you,
Speaker 1: dr at the price. My second fear is the video
Speaker 1: game child. I am horrified. I was the last generation
Speaker 1: to be raised without the iPhone. I didn't have a car,
Speaker 1: have a phone in college. So this is like um
Speaker 1: crazy to me that that kids are literally in front
Speaker 1: of screens all day long. But video games, video games
Speaker 1: can be very very positive. Everything has changed. So when
Speaker 1: they're in their basement playing a video game, they're playing
Speaker 1: with their friends, right And for the kid that has
Speaker 1: troublemaking friends, sometimes that's their social life, but they're more
Speaker 1: comfortable there. And then most of the kids graduate to
Speaker 1: playing video games in the same living room and then
Speaker 1: they have a social life. So, um, so it's not
Speaker 1: always bad. There are there are kids who only play
Speaker 1: video games. That's a whole other istion because those kids,
Speaker 1: to me, have underlying Yeah. But so you are very motivated,
Speaker 1: right you. You made it in a way that many
Speaker 1: people want to a few people do. So what's your secret?
Speaker 1: What kept you going? You know through all the babysitting jobs.
Speaker 1: I'm a very very hard worker. I always have been.
Speaker 1: Like I was never a natural A plus student, but
Speaker 1: I was an A plus student because I work really
Speaker 1: hard and I knew I think what struck so hard
Speaker 1: to me in this episode was girls smarts of how
Speaker 1: to connect and play on the playground. What was it
Speaker 1: that you said about like seventh grade girls like that?
Speaker 1: Chief status by who they know yes, And I think
Speaker 1: I've been very good at connecting people. So I think
Speaker 1: it's a combo of like, I'm a hard worker but
Speaker 1: also I love people, So I would be the kid.
Speaker 1: Even though I was getting a sea in physics, I
Speaker 1: knew that if I went to office hours every single
Speaker 1: day and got that teacher on my side, that that
Speaker 1: teacher would maybe feel bad for me and give me.
Speaker 1: And I don't think I was doing it in any
Speaker 1: way shape from a manipulative way at all. I think
Speaker 1: I just was like, like, I need help, and I
Speaker 1: my strong suit is connection to you understood something that
Speaker 1: politics is having a relationship with someone who's in power
Speaker 1: over you. And you understood that if you develop a
Speaker 1: relationship with that teacher, uh, it will benefit your Yeah,
Speaker 1: acting jobs didn't come easy. I had to waitress and
Speaker 1: bartend and personally assistant cater and nanny and babysit and
Speaker 1: all those things. Right. I had a part time job
Speaker 1: since I was sixteen. Um, my parents really didn't push chores.
Speaker 1: But I was never grounded or anything. I it was
Speaker 1: more about disappointment, you know. Um, But my parents were
Speaker 1: the parent that would like send me to their my room. Um,
Speaker 1: if I did something to think about what I had done,
Speaker 1: and then my dad would end up sitting on the
Speaker 1: end of my bed just sobbing. Well, we talked about
Speaker 1: my dad's very emotionally available. UM. We call them heart
Speaker 1: darts in our family. Both my brother and my dad
Speaker 1: cried way easier than the girls do. Wow. Well, that's wonderful.
Speaker 1: You can you can teach me. Thank you. We're wrapping up,
Speaker 1: if it's okay with you. I want to talk to
Speaker 1: you about your daughter, UM, who passed away three or
Speaker 1: four years ago. And I want to talk to because
Speaker 1: I think we would be missing him. Wonderful opportunity in
Speaker 1: such a sad thing of of what happened in your life,
Speaker 1: and talk to us about how that ties in with
Speaker 1: the book and the working. Yeah. I had a transgender
Speaker 1: daughter my wife and I UM named Sam. Sam was
Speaker 1: born a boy, but came out as transgender her sophomore
Speaker 1: year of college. UM and uh. A year later, she
Speaker 1: took her life on her birthday. UM and yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: It was a terrible tragedy. And up until that point
Speaker 1: she was, you know, just like a self cleaning oven
Speaker 1: type kid. You know, she was really easy to to
Speaker 1: deal with and and every as everybody's best friend. But
Speaker 1: it really it shook her, you know, in a way
Speaker 1: that we just didn't anticipate or realize. And and we
Speaker 1: knew she was depressed. Um, we knew she was struggling.
Speaker 1: It was like she pulled out of college. Were not
Speaker 1: pulled her out of college. Um, But but she ended
Speaker 1: up taking her life. And so my wife said, I
Speaker 1: want to start a foundation for for trans youth and
Speaker 1: help them in some way. And so we started a
Speaker 1: foundation called the Sam and Divora Foundation for Trans Youth
Speaker 1: because we thought that Sam was going to take Divora
Speaker 1: had she continued to UH to transition. And and you know,
Speaker 1: the thing is that the suicide attempt rate for transgender
Speaker 1: kids is forty one. And as I've done this work,
Speaker 1: and as every trans person I've met, including people in Hollywood,
Speaker 1: you know, have said to me, um, I've been there. UM.
Speaker 1: So we really wanted to try to create a safe
Speaker 1: space UM for trans kids. So we created this foundation.
Speaker 1: We have retreats UM for trans teenagers in eastern part
Speaker 1: of the United States and Berkshire Mountains. And then we
Speaker 1: have developed a community of counselors UM who are trans
Speaker 1: agender nine conforming and they've become their own family. So
Speaker 1: we have a retreat for them. We're doing an event
Speaker 1: in Philadelphia in the in the spring for eighteen to
Speaker 1: twenty one year olds because when we go to the
Speaker 1: Mazzoni trans Health Conference or things like that every year, UM,
Speaker 1: we're always asked by that age group, and we're kind
Speaker 1: of brainstorming because we want to reach many more kids, um,
Speaker 1: you know, across the country, so we're trying to figure
Speaker 1: out how to do that. UM. But yeah, so that's
Speaker 1: been very meaningful work for my wife and I. It's
Speaker 1: it's sustained us, but it's also these kids are just
Speaker 1: you know, they feel so marginalized, and so to have
Speaker 1: a retreat and then have a kid write you at
Speaker 1: all and say, you know, this was the best weekend
Speaker 1: of my life. It was the first time I was
Speaker 1: able to feel myself, be myself, be around people you know,
Speaker 1: like me. It was just it's really But the foundation's
Speaker 1: website is Sam and Devora dot org. Great Sam and
Speaker 1: Devora dot Org. UM, such important work you're doing on
Speaker 1: so many levels. I really we are lucky that you
Speaker 1: are here, like making waves and changing and helping and
Speaker 1: supporting people. UM. In Today's Day and age Um. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much, Dr Adam Price for being on Katie's Crib.
Speaker 1: Thank you it was so much fun. Thank you all
Speaker 1: for tuning into Katie's Crib and for your beautiful messages
Speaker 1: and reviews. I absolutely love connecting with you and hearing
Speaker 1: your stories and questions. So email me at Katie's Crib
Speaker 1: at Shonda land dot com. We may just feature you
Speaker 1: on an episode, so hit me up. Thanks, guys. Katie's
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