1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:02,559 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 2: The stepbrother charged, according to reports, after Cruz Girl, a 3 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 2: beautiful teen cheerleader Anna Kepner, found dead, her body stuffed 4 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 2: under a twin bed covered in life vests on a 5 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 2: cruise with her grandparents. She's found dead in her own 6 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 2: room after the suspect, the stepbrother, skips his daily drug cocktail. 7 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to 8 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. A beautiful young teen 9 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 2: cheerleader found dead on a cruise ship, her body there 10 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 2: for hours and hours before anyone even notices she's missing. 11 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: Where were the parents for Pete's sake? 12 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 2: Still so many questions. By tonight, we are learning that 13 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 2: the stepbrother has been taken to federal court and according 14 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: to the dad, Anna Kettner's bio dad, he was charged 15 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 2: under federal law. Now this is what Anna Kettner's biological 16 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 2: mom says. 17 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 3: I got some news today on my daughter's case. They 18 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 3: are going to charge her sixteen year old step brother 19 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 3: or first degree murder, and there's gonna be some other 20 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 3: charges brought, but I'm not sure what they are yet. 21 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 3: Until they tell me, I don't know. So that is 22 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 3: one of the charges and as soon as I know more, 23 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 3: I will let you guys know. Thanks for support. 24 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 2: Now, according to her, that is Anna Kuttner's biological mother, 25 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 2: and according to Anna Kittner's biological father, who is the 26 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 2: stepbrother's stepdad, is very confused. 27 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: Charges have been lodged. Now what are the charges? 28 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: Straight out to Greg Moose, joining US veteran criminal defense attorney, 29 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 2: joining us out of the Palm Beach, Florida area. He 30 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 2: is the author of the Untested on Amazon and he 31 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 2: founded Morse Legal at morselegal dot com. Greg Morse I 32 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 2: imagined that the confusion that is. 33 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: Surrounding the charges. 34 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 2: Generates from the fact that he is a juvenile and 35 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 2: the media cannot get their myths on any of those 36 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 2: charges or anything that went down in juvenile court, even federal. 37 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 4: Well, that's correct. 38 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 5: When someone is charged as a juvenile in federal court 39 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 5: or state court, it's confidential. The public does not have 40 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 5: access to it through the court system. With regard to this, 41 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 5: and I would suggest that we don't even know if 42 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 5: there's a grand jury indictment here yet. And I would 43 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 5: also suggest if there are charges, it's probably not murder 44 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 5: at this point because the Fed government generally charges people 45 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 5: fifteen and over as adults for serious violent felonies. So, yes, 46 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 5: this stuff is confidential when someone's a juvenile. Once they're 47 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 5: charged as an adult, it does not stay confidential and 48 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 5: it can be available in the system. 49 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 4: What could have happened is the US. 50 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 5: Attorney's office talk to family and indicated they might be 51 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 5: filing a quote criminal complaint, which precedes an indictment. 52 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 4: But the federal government still has to go to a. 53 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 5: Grand jury, and even if you're an adult, those proceedings 54 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 5: will be sealed until you make your initial appearance in 55 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 5: court and then it gets opened up. But if he's 56 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 5: charged with something like tampering with evidence or they're going 57 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 5: to do that, or something that's not violent but related 58 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 5: to the death of this young lady, then it would 59 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 5: stay confidential throughout the case except for the lawyers involved. 60 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: In the Greg Morse, that please, Greg Morse, you just 61 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: said that the step brother, now almost seventeen, can be 62 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 2: tried as an adult, could be charged with tampering with evidence. 63 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: That's a yes, No Morse, did you just say. 64 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 5: That, not as an adult for tampering or what evidence, 65 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 5: he would still likely be charged as a juvenile for 66 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 5: that if he were charged with murder, there's a good 67 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 5: chance he would be charged as an adult, like the 68 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 5: FEDS do in most states do when you're over fifteen, 69 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 5: or in Florida over thirteen. 70 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 2: To Joe Scott Morgan, joining US Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University. 71 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 2: He is the author of Blood Beneath My Fate on Amazon. 72 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 2: He is the star of a hit podcast, Body Bags 73 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 2: with Joseph Scott Morgan, but for our purposes tonight. He 74 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 2: is a death investigator who has investigated over believe it 75 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 2: or not, ten thousand death scenes of all sorts, be 76 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 2: the ex iidental natural causes, suicide unexplained, or in this case, homicide. 77 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 2: Did you just hear Greg Morse describe a potential charge 78 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 2: against a step brother is. 79 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: Tampering with evidence? That's a yes? 80 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 2: No? 81 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: Did you hear that? 82 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 2: Yes? Okay, Jo Scott? What would that evidence be? That 83 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 2: evidence is Anna Kettner's dead body. I don't want to 84 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: talk about her body as quote evidence. 85 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 6: You got that right, And let me explain something because 86 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 6: people take offense many times to that. But you have 87 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 6: to as a death investigator, you have to think of 88 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 6: the decedent as the little hub of the wheel with 89 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 6: all the spokes coming off of it, all the other evidence. 90 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 6: The body is the central focus of this case. By 91 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 6: the fact that she was taken, stuffed under this bed, 92 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 6: covered with blankets, and then these life jackets are put 93 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 6: on top of her, you're trying to hide evidence at 94 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 6: that point in time. That's why they're classifying it like this. 95 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 6: We're not talking about scrubbing a scene or removing a 96 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 6: weapon or anything like that. We're talking about taking this 97 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 6: young girl's body after she has been murdered and stuffed 98 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 6: under the bed and hidden from anyone to find her, 99 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 6: and all kinds of things happen relative to that. You 100 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 6: can compromise evidence. You know, there's a delay in being 101 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 6: able to get to the body, bodies decomposed, all these 102 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 6: sorts of things, so that in and of itself constitutes 103 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 6: tampering it. 104 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just you know, Morse, I know that when 105 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: all of. 106 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 2: Us lawyers start speaking lawyer talk, tampering with evidence is 107 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 2: vellanty charge. But the evidence we're talking about here is 108 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 2: Anna Katner's body. 109 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: That's a little based on based. 110 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 5: No, what I mean by that is based on the 111 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 5: information so far is these people shared a room and 112 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 5: then the leap is he must have killed this young girl, 113 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 5: his stepsister. That there's a far stretch from just because 114 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 5: you were in a room with someone on. 115 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 4: A cruise ship where the half brother shared the room too. 116 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 4: There's a lot of people on the cruise ship. 117 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 5: Doesn't mean because he shared a room with her that 118 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 5: he committed the murder of her at all. There's no 119 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 5: evidence that it actually was a murder at this point yet, 120 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 5: could it be a suicide. There's a host of answered 121 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 5: questions with regard to how this girl died, and to 122 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 5: just link it to the stepbrother is a stretch at 123 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 5: this point. And he could have come in the room 124 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 5: and saw his stepsister freaked out. 125 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 4: He's a sixteen year old teenager. 126 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 5: Didn't know what to do, had nothing to do with 127 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 5: her death, and hit the body, or he came in 128 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 5: the room and the body was hidden under the bed 129 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 5: he noticed it and freaked out, because again he's a teenager, 130 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 5: So there's not enough say he committed the murder here. Also, 131 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 5: you know, he could have made a statement, and now 132 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 5: the Feds are trying to charge him with obstruction just 133 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 5: so they can get leverage to keep him on the 134 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 5: hook to continue to. 135 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 4: Talk and try to find out more information. 136 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 5: So there's a host of different things, but there's no 137 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 5: evidence to say that he actually killed this girl or 138 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 5: nothing that's come out yet that would point to that, 139 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 5: other than he happened to be in. 140 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 4: The room with her at some point. 141 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: That's it happened to be in the room with her 142 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 2: before I disprove everything you just said, why do you 143 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 2: say these words like there they're poison, like they're dirt 144 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 2: in your mouth. The Feds didn't just to get leveraged 145 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 2: to get him on the hook. Well, so he would, 146 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 2: it's what they did. I mean the way he said that, 147 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:53,599 Speaker 2: it sounds like a nasty word. 148 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 4: Of it. Nothing that's the Fed life. 149 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 5: But that it's the federal government's choice on how they 150 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 5: want to investigate the job. 151 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: Do you think, don't you want murder solved? 152 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 4: It's their choice. 153 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 5: Well, sure people want murder solved, and they generally do 154 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 5: get solved. 155 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 4: And you know you're on a cruise ship. 156 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 5: There's a lot of data points to tell this story, 157 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 5: whether it be cameras, whether it be room keys, things 158 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 5: that are record data. 159 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 4: And movement, so you know the story will be told. 160 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 5: But to say the step brother did it simply because 161 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 5: he shared a room with the girl is a stretch 162 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 5: at this point, and you know, the Feds then probably 163 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,079 Speaker 5: don't have much to link them to the murder, so 164 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 5: they want to, you know, see what they can come 165 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 5: up with. So you know, that's what they do. There's 166 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 5: nothing wrong with that. That's their prerogative to do it. 167 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 5: They try to solve crimes, and it's one of the 168 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 5: ways they do it. They hold on to someone they 169 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 5: think has more information than they're letting on and if 170 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 5: they can put any charge against them. 171 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 4: They will. 172 00:09:54,280 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: Joe Scott, could you take mister Morse to school and 173 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:05,199 Speaker 2: give him a lesson on why Anna Kepner, the teen 174 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 2: girl cheerleader, the one scrubbed in sunshine, the one that 175 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 2: goes to the Christian Academy, the one that still was 176 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,319 Speaker 2: wearing braces for Pete's sake, the one that was caught 177 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 2: dancing at the celebration party with her grandparents, her last dance. 178 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: There she is. 179 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 2: Look at her, just sweet of sunshine out there with 180 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 2: Granny kicking up her little feet. Yeah, she's dead. That's 181 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 2: from our friend Nick Cappo. Six nine on TikTok. Could 182 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 2: you explain to Mores why it is impossible that this 183 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 2: little girl committed suicide based on the autopsy. 184 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,959 Speaker 6: Well, I can tell you what the board certified forensic 185 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 6: pathologist said at the Dade County Miami Dade County Medical 186 00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 6: Examiner's office. They classified her death as aation, and she 187 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 6: sustained blunt force trauma Nancy. And here's the thing they 188 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 6: talked about. They talked about relative to her, that her 189 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 6: body had sustained what is referred to as trauma related 190 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 6: to an arm bar. Take a look. Okay, so the 191 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 6: leading edge of the arm right here. What they're saying 192 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 6: is that the arm was placed over her throat and 193 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 6: pressed down. Okay, there's a reason why cops can't use 194 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 6: arm bars and restraint. You know what it is. It 195 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 6: asphyxiates people. It can also crush the layernics. So whatever 196 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 6: has happened, we don't have a lot more detail. This 197 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 6: transfer of energy from someone's body pressing down. Everybody at home, 198 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 6: just think about having this area of your throat pressed 199 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 6: down on and how hard it would be to breathe. 200 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 6: You sustain that pressure over and over and over again, 201 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 6: sooner or later, you're going to run out of air. 202 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 6: Now they're saying blunt force trauma as well. Many times 203 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 6: with these cases, what you see with blunt force trauma, 204 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 6: you're seeing somebody attempting to subdue somebody else, literally beating 205 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 6: them into submission. Not granted, I don't know who did it, 206 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 6: but I know that the people at the EMESE office 207 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 6: this is the conclusion they arrived at. And Nancy, if 208 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 6: you like that one, I got another one for you. 209 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 6: Dig this. If there is this level of contact on 210 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 6: the surface of her neck, and you probably know where 211 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 6: I'm going here, you're going to have transfer from here 212 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 6: to there. I'm just hoping that they have swapped her 213 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 6: neck that collected everything in this space, because you can 214 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 6: have genetic connectivity here. And what I mean by that 215 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 6: at a molecular level. We're talking molecular evidence because this 216 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 6: is very very intimate, Nancy, and people will say, well, 217 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 6: he occupied the same space, you know, and maybe she 218 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 6: just happened to wind up with a deposition of his 219 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 6: DNA on the on the anterior aspect of her throat. 220 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 6: That's going to be hard for any jury to swallow in. 221 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 2: We are also learning, are we not, Joseph Scott Morgan 222 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 2: that there was no indication that there were drugs or 223 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 2: alcohol and antikitinar system. 224 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, you're right. 225 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: And how was that determined? 226 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 6: Well, they would have drawn. We draw toxicology at every 227 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 6: single autopsy and we refer to it as a standard panel. 228 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 6: And you think about the standard drugs of abuse, and 229 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 6: then there are scripts that are out there, you know, 230 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 6: things like anti anxiety, depression, anti depression medication, everything, even 231 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 6: for hypertension, the other thing that we screened for. And 232 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 6: this is what you're always thinking about relative to young 233 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,200 Speaker 6: people on cruise ships. We do a ba A blood 234 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 6: alcohol level level at ethanol level, and it's coming back negative. 235 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 6: You know, one of our big concerns. And we've talked 236 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 6: about this. You and I have talked about this specifically. 237 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 6: With trips like this, you think about, well, was her 238 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 6: drink spike? Does she have a huge amount of alcohol 239 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 6: in her system that would have at least knocked her 240 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 6: down to a position where she was completely vulnerable. They're 241 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 6: not seeing that here, Nancy. They're not seeing this at all, 242 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 6: So that leads us down a different path. This is 243 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 6: not like something that she was poisoned struck her throat, 244 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 6: or she was aneebrated struck her throat, anything like that 245 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 6: that's not the indication that we're getting. 246 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 2: Greg Morris, if the reports are true that the step 247 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 2: brother has been charged and that is coming from his stepfather, 248 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 2: what you've already told us about. 249 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: Tampering with evidence, But why are you prone. 250 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 2: To believe it's not a murder or some sort of 251 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 2: a homicide charge. 252 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 5: Well, the reason why is nothing's come out that he's 253 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 5: charged as an adult. I don't think the federal government 254 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 5: would charge her murder for a sixteen year old and 255 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 5: keep them in juvenile court. I've had these situations before, 256 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 5: and generally the person that stays in juvenile court is 257 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 5: getting a non homicide charge, and because that person, they 258 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 5: want information to link to the people that committed the homicide. 259 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 4: So that's the only reason why I say that. 260 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 2: Okay, hold on, hold on, Morris, I got a question 261 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 2: for you based on something you just said. If in fact, 262 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 2: this is true, and the reason we're questioning it right 263 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 2: now is because it's been kept under wraps. 264 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: The reason I believe it's been kept under wraps is 265 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: because he. 266 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 2: Is a juvenile and those records are kept secret. It's 267 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 2: really hard, even with a subpoena for even a prosecutor 268 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 2: to get juvenile records. I recall Greg Morris, I don't 269 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 2: know if this has ever happened to you. I was 270 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 2: trying an adult for homicide. I found out through word 271 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: of mouth. You know, a witness, one of my witnesses 272 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 2: told me, oh, yeah, he's had a shooting before a 273 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 2: couple of years ago when he was still a juvenile. 274 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: I'm like, what similar transaction I want that. 275 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 2: I tried and tried and tried to get it throughout 276 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 2: the trial. 277 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: When the case went to the jury, In other words, I. 278 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 2: Had rested my case, the defense had rested its case, 279 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 2: the jury instructions had been given, the. 280 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: Jury was deliberating. 281 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 2: Guess what into court comes a rep from juvenile court. 282 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: And he had three prior shooting incidents, which I could 283 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 2: have used a trial if I had had them. 284 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: But I tried. 285 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 2: I fought tooth and nail. I went through Helen high 286 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 2: Water to get those juvenile records with a subpoena, and 287 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 2: I got them a day late and a dollar short. 288 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 2: The jury never knew that he had a history of 289 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 2: shooting people and shooting at people. They convict them anyway. 290 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 2: But that said, that's how hard it is to get 291 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 2: a juvenile record. Now here's my question. You're saying you 292 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 2: don't think it is a homicide charge. I'm not saying murder. 293 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 2: Homicide could be murder, it could be manslaughter, it could 294 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 2: be involuntary manslaughter, any of those choices. You're saying you 295 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 2: don't think that it's one of those because if it were, 296 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 2: he would have been bound over to adult court and 297 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 2: that hasn't happened. So therefore you're thinking it's not a homicide. 298 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: I'm just trying to understand your thinking. 299 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't think so at this stage that it 300 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 5: is a homicide charge because again, he's still in juvenile court. 301 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 5: It appears or a juvenile designation in federal court, so 302 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 5: right away, when someone's charge as an adult, it becomes public. 303 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 5: And also they could be working up to go to 304 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 5: a grand jury. The grand jury they don't go to 305 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 5: every day. They can convene them on an emergency basis. 306 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 5: They do go regularly to grand juries, and you have 307 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 5: to get a grand jury has to issue charge. So 308 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 5: they could just have issued a criminal complaint alerted. That's 309 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 5: just what's going to happen, and then they'll go to 310 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 5: a grand jury later, although. 311 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 4: That is a little unusual. With the relief. That is 312 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 4: a little unusual with. 313 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 5: A juvenile if they're not being charged with a homicide 314 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 5: based offense. But again, this is still confidential. Nothing's in 315 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 5: the system public. I checked right before I came on 316 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 5: your show today to see if there was anything in 317 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 5: the federal system and there still is not access by 318 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 5: open to the public. 319 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 2: Anna Ketner's body was found and it was dead, stuffed 320 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 2: under a bunk under one of the beds in the room. 321 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 1: Do we have proof that her stepbrother did this? 322 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 6: To this date, we don't have any answers at this point. 323 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 2: A lot has been made of the fact that the 324 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 2: stepbrother's family seems more intent upon optics about what gets 325 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 2: out to the media. Is it a surprise that they 326 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 2: want to keep alleged charges on the down low? Straight 327 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 2: out to Sidney Sumner joining US Crime Stories investigative reporter, Sidney, 328 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 2: isn't it true that the step brother was viewed going 329 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 2: to federal court? 330 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: And this video here is from Fox thirty five Orlando. 331 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 7: Yes, we watched him walk into court. He was flanked 332 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 7: by a public defender and his father, Thomas Hudson. He's 333 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 7: wearing that camouflage jacket and even. 334 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,719 Speaker 8: A hat underneath that though all media photos blur his space, 335 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 8: they did not any want anyone seeing his face as 336 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 8: he walked into this court room. 337 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 2: So the teen step brother of Anna Kapner was seen 338 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 2: leaving juvenile court entering federal adult court in Miami. 339 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 1: Just a few days ago. 340 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 2: And this is I made an investigation into Anna's death 341 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 2: on the Carnival cruise ship. Now the documents are sealed, 342 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 2: official charges not released as of right now. 343 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: Doctor Jerlyn Utter is joining us. 344 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 2: She is the clinical psychologist specializing in psychological evaluations and 345 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: risk assessments for individuals. Author of mainlining Philly Survival Hope 346 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 2: Resisting Drug Addiction. She's the author of Aftershock, How Past 347 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:35,440 Speaker 2: Events Shake Up Your Life Today, producer of Utter Nonsense. 348 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us, Doctor Cheron Utter. The 349 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 2: question to you regarding claims that the family is more 350 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 2: intent on protecting the reputation of the step brother, I 351 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 2: find that loyalty highly displaced. 352 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 9: I don't necessarily find it highly displaced. It on Nancy, 353 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 9: because you know, to Greg Morris's point, you know, we 354 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 9: don't actually know what happened in that room, and this 355 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 9: sounds like a pretty you know, from the outside and 356 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 9: from what we know, this was a blended family, a 357 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 9: stepbrother and a step you know sister that for all 358 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 9: intent purposes, as far as we can see, got along 359 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 9: with each other. So because we don't know what happened, 360 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 9: you know, the family is trying to protect the child 361 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 9: that they have left. They can't you know, I couldn't 362 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 9: imagine the grief that they're going through having lost the daughter. 363 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 9: And essentially what's happening now is they're in the process 364 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 9: of losing a son. So as far as optics go, 365 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 9: I think they're just trying to protect their family, and 366 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 9: because we don't know what happened, I think it makes sense. 367 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 9: Another thing is, you know, he was reported you know, 368 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 9: behavioral observations. He was reported as being you know, an 369 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 9: emotional mess, extremely trimized. He was hospitalized psychiatrically after leaving. Now, 370 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 9: that doesn't that's not an implication of guilt of any 371 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 9: sort that we see when it's very traumatic event. Somebody 372 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,400 Speaker 9: was exposed to a very traumatic event. Him being hospitalized 373 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 9: to just indicative of how much that impacted him. So, 374 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 9: you know, I kind of I get where the family's 375 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 9: coming from, and I empathize with them. They've lost a daughter, 376 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,239 Speaker 9: and now they're in the process potentially of losing a 377 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 9: son if he doesn't get in trouble or convicted legally. 378 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 9: You know, this has been another trauma on the family 379 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 9: and it's it's heartbreaking. 380 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: Why do you keep saying, we don't know what happened 381 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: in that room. I'm curious. 382 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 9: Because we don't know. I mean, we know that something happened, 383 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 9: but we really don't actually know what happened in that room. 384 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 9: He looks like, you know, somebody that was involved in something, 385 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 9: but we don't know exactly what it was. So, you know, 386 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 9: to the family's point, they probably know more than anyone 387 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 9: does at this point because that's their son and trying 388 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 9: to protect him is an obvious knee jerk reaction to 389 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 9: somebody who loves him, especially his parents. 390 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 391 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan, could you please refresh doctor Utter's recollection 392 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 2: of the facts about. 393 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: What we do know. 394 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 2: Who went into the room, the little brother, the little 395 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 2: one comes out of the room, leaving behind Anna Keptner 396 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 2: alone with a stepbrother who had physically jumped on her 397 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 2: before climbed on top of her and she fought him off. 398 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 2: The little brother leaves hears fighting and throwing furniture in 399 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 2: the room. He hears the stepbrother screaming at Anna. 400 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: He goes wandering around all on his own. 401 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 2: He's a little boy on a cruise ship till late 402 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,959 Speaker 2: at night. I don't know what the parents were thinking. 403 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 2: There's video of Anna going into the cabin and never 404 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 2: coming out. 405 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: The step brother. 406 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 2: Was in the cabin with her, and now she's dead, 407 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 2: not by suicide. Just give me your factual analysis of 408 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 2: what we know. As doctor gerald Utter says, we don't 409 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 2: know what happened in that room. You know what, I 410 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 2: don't need to count on my fingers to figure out 411 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 2: two plus two is one, two, three four. 412 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: I can figure that out. Help me out, Joe Scott. 413 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 6: Yeah, one plus one still equals two, and so yeah, 414 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 6: we were not a fly on the wall inside of 415 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 6: the room. But from an investigative's perspective, Nancy, I have 416 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 6: to de do that. I have one suspect that I'm 417 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 6: looking at at this point in time, particularly if we've 418 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 6: got secondary witnesses here that are reporting that they're hearing fighting. 419 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 6: As a matter of fact, you've got an eyewitness that 420 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 6: sees things occurring makes them so uncomfortable that they exit 421 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 6: from this room. Now, I guess that people say this 422 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 6: as young kid, but still he's got fear kicking in. 423 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 6: He doesn't want to be around this environment. At this 424 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 6: point in time, You've already got a witnessed attack that 425 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 6: has taken place, and then you hear the screaming, the throwing, 426 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 6: the furniture and these sorts of things when her body 427 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 6: is found. When her body is found, I think the 428 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 6: big question would be, does a level of violence and 429 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 6: there is violence here that is displayed on her mortal remains, Nancy, 430 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 6: does it marry up with what we're hearing from inside 431 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 6: of the room. I think that at the end of 432 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 6: the day, the science is going to tell the tale 433 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 6: here relative to what happened to her. We still don't 434 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 6: know all of the details relative to her trauma, but 435 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 6: it is going to be extensive. The sounds, I got 436 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 6: to tell you, Nancy, it sounds very savage to me 437 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 6: when you're talking about a combination of not just asphyxiation, 438 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 6: but also, as I'd mentioned previously, I think that these 439 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 6: blunt force injuries that she is sustaining are an attempt 440 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 6: to subdue her. And one more little fact PoID here 441 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 6: in order to facilitate an armbar like this. You could 442 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 6: do it from the rear, where you have an individual 443 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 6: that is behind the subject and you're pressing against the 444 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 6: neck around their neck, Okay, where you're actually pressing in 445 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 6: toward them. However, in my opinion, I think that this 446 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 6: is where she is face up on the floor. The 447 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 6: assailant would be on top of her and literally pressing 448 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 6: his forearm down onto her neck, after having subdued her 449 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 6: with punches, perhaps maybe kicks. She may have been stomped. 450 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 4: I don't know. 451 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 6: We'll find out more. 452 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 8: Though. 453 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 10: He was the only one seen coming and going, so 454 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 10: I can't I can't accuse him because I don't know 455 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 10: what happened in that room, but the summation would beat 456 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 10: it that he did something. 457 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 11: Anna excuses herself from dinner early, not feeling well. Surveillance 458 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 11: footage shows Anna walking back to and entering the room 459 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 11: she shares with her brothers after eating. The teen boys 460 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,439 Speaker 11: come back to the room before the youngest sibling ventures 461 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 11: out again to explore, leaving Anna and their stepbrother alone. 462 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 2: So to doctor jerrellen Utter, you continue to state we 463 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 2: don't know what happened in that room video and witnesses 464 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 2: show Anna Keepner and the step brother entering the room. 465 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: They're in there alone. 466 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 2: The step brother comes out and she is found stuffed 467 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 2: under a bed, wrapped in a sheet, strangled, asphyxiated. 468 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: By a bar hold. 469 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 2: So explain to me how you think they're the only 470 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 2: two people in the room. How do you think she 471 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 2: ended up under the bed, stuffed under the bed, wrapped 472 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 2: in a sheet dead. 473 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 9: I mean, I don't I don't want to kind of 474 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 9: go back and forth on on all of the intricacies 475 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 9: and you know, you know, did he do it, did 476 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 9: he not do it? I mean, I think from a 477 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 9: psychological standpoint, to your earlier point, this family is in 478 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:26,959 Speaker 9: survival mode and they're trying to protect the child that 479 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 9: they have left, and they're just you know, an aggrieving process. 480 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 9: They're to kind of process all this, figure out what's 481 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 9: going on. Another thing is, you know, from from an 482 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 9: evaluative perspective, if the court hasn't done this already, I 483 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 9: would hope that they would order a full psychological evaluation, 484 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 9: whether it's done on the juvenile side or the adult side, 485 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 9: for the step brother, because we want to learn more 486 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 9: about you know, his current mental capacity, his his you know, 487 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 9: competency where he's at, if he's even appropriate to participate 488 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 9: in court proceeding. And I think I think all of 489 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 9: that data, you know, will reveal things. When we do evaluation, 490 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 9: we reveal things about somebody's metal stability and their overall 491 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 9: mental health. Not to be confused, and I'm not trying 492 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 9: to say, hey, because you know he may or may 493 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 9: not have a severe mental illness or psychiatric issue that 494 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,000 Speaker 9: that you know, kind of is an excuse for him 495 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 9: to do what he's done. But I think, you know, 496 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 9: really taking a look at him and evaluating him psychologically 497 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 9: is really going to also help put the pieces of 498 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 9: this case together. 499 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 11: Anna Kaepner's death on board a carnival cruise ship now 500 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 11: ruled a homicide, her autopsy stating she was mechanically asphyxiated 501 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 11: by another person or person's The medical examiner finds two 502 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 11: bruises on the side of Anna's neck. She may have 503 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 11: been held in a bar hold, meaning her attacker held 504 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 11: an arm across her neck. 505 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 2: Still no arrest, now over seventy five days later. 506 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: Nothing. 507 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 12: The problem is you don't know who the people are 508 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 12: that you're cruising with, so you could be cruising with murderers, 509 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,640 Speaker 12: child predators, and all sorts of criminals. 510 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,479 Speaker 2: When I say murder, I mean murder because there is 511 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: no way she killed herself or had an accident and 512 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 2: ended up stupped under a block. 513 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 3: I got some news today on my daughter's case. They 514 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 3: are going to charge her sixteen year old step brother 515 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 3: or first degree murder, and there's gonna be some other 516 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 3: charges brought, but I'm not sure what they are yet 517 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 3: until they tell me. Uh, I don't know, so that 518 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 3: is one of the charges, and as soon as I 519 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 3: know more, I will let you guys know. Thanks for 520 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 3: and support. 521 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 2: That is Anna Kettner's biological mother, Heather, right, But then 522 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,560 Speaker 2: she posts this, so I guess I was wrong. 523 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 13: With my update the other day. 524 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 14: Apparently charged with anything when you went to federal report 525 00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 14: and so I'm not sure what that's all about. 526 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 13: I also heard that you've been croudish June. Now not 527 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 13: an ass adult, but just you get that boy, you 528 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 13: would you just do it when he did? 529 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 14: No if and the bus got it? That mean, so 530 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 14: everybody fight for me, right for my daughters. 531 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 13: Ke y'all, block bump the foot y'all. 532 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 2: Okay, that is Anna's by a mom again and I 533 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 2: just want to hear exactly what she says one more time. 534 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 1: Let's listen carefully. 535 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 13: So I guess I was wrong with my update the 536 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 13: other day. Apparently they charged with anything. 537 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 14: Why any might you, et cetera more and so I'm 538 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 14: not sure, but that's all about I also heard. 539 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 13: That you've been croudish June now not an. 540 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 14: As adult, which is get that boy you would he 541 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 14: was doing when he did? No, it's and the bus 542 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 14: got it? 543 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 2: That mean? 544 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 13: So everybody fight for me? Right, my daughters, make y'all 545 00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 13: block up the foot y'all. 546 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 2: That again was Anna Kipner's mother, Heather right, posting very 547 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 2: very upset. She can't quite seem to get to the 548 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 2: bottom of what the charges are straight out to Sidney Sumner, 549 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 2: joining US Crime Stories investigative reporter, Sidney, I think the 550 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 2: confusion stems from the fact that it's all under wraps. 551 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 2: It's sealed because it's juvenile records. But according to the 552 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 2: step father, which is Anna's Anna Kipner's bio dad, and 553 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 2: according to ABC and other outlets, charges have been filed 554 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 2: against the step brother. 555 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: What do we know? 556 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 2: What do we really know other than we saw him 557 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 2: going from juvenile court. Let's see the video from juvenile 558 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 2: court to federal court where he would be charged. If 559 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 2: he's being charged as a FED. This is where our 560 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 2: friends at Fox thirty five Orlando, by the way, that 561 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 2: appears to be his public defender with him. So he's 562 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 2: got his law while you're with him, and he's going 563 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 2: to federal court where the whole thing started. This could 564 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 2: be a matter of it's being handed over to state 565 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 2: authorities to lodge charges. But what do we actually know, 566 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 2: Sidney Sumner. 567 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 7: Well, right, like you said, we know that Chris Kepner 568 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 7: has commented that this team step brother has been charged. 569 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: We do not know what. 570 00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,120 Speaker 7: With Kepner did not go that far. He mentioned charges 571 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 7: but did not get into the specifics of what those 572 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 7: charges are. And we know that his relationship with Heather 573 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 7: Wright and his mom is fraught with tension. They aren't 574 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 7: on good terms. So the information that she's getting is 575 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 7: not only second hands but also coming from the father. 576 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 7: So whatever Chris Kutner is deciding to tell Heather right 577 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 7: is what she's going off of. So, yes, keeping all 578 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 7: of these records under seal is lee being a lot 579 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 7: to question. 580 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 1: Right now, crime stories with Nancy grace. 581 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 15: He heard him yelling at her, like in a harmful 582 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,359 Speaker 15: way of like shut the hell up and stuff like that, 583 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 15: Like something was like banging around and stuff, and like 584 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 15: the chairs were getting thrown around in the room. 585 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,399 Speaker 16: And his brother had heard a heated argument between them 586 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 16: in their cabin the night before Anna was found dead. 587 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 16: He heard the stepbrother yelling at Anna. The sounds of 588 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,720 Speaker 16: furniture overturning and screams from inside their room. 589 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,680 Speaker 2: That was from our friends at Inside Edition. Greg Morse 590 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 2: joining me veteran trial lawyers, a criminal defense attorney founded 591 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 2: Morse Legal. 592 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: I'm concerned. 593 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 2: I'll tell you what I'm concerned about right now is 594 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 2: tampering with witnesses. No one's been charged with it. But 595 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 2: the little brother, the jeevenile. Hey was a little brother Sydney, 596 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 2: like twelve or thirteen years. 597 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 7: Old, thirteen thirteen, the little. 598 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:12,280 Speaker 1: Brother, and he looks younger than that is seen on video. 599 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 2: I mean, you might as well be in a casino 600 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 2: in Vegas because every square inch of this cruise ship 601 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,240 Speaker 2: is covered with video. He's just wandering around the cruise 602 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 2: ship all night by himself into the late hours that 603 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 2: I think that's him, the little one that said, just 604 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 2: wandering around. Now, his testimony, Greg is that he heard 605 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 2: the step brother, the sixteen year old stepbrother, yelling at 606 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 2: Anna in a quote harmful way, yelling things like shut 607 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 2: the hell up. Something was banging around. It sounded like 608 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 2: cheers getting thrown around the room. Then Anna ends up 609 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,280 Speaker 2: stuffed under the bed, wrapped in a sheet and covered 610 00:35:59,320 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 2: in life. 611 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 1: This a very infantile way. 612 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 2: That's just got Morgan's term of covering up her body, 613 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 2: and I agree with him. This is my fear. The 614 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 2: family is so concerned about protecting the teen step brother. 615 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 2: Could they coerce the little boy or encourage him to. 616 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: Change his testimony? 617 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:29,839 Speaker 5: Is that possible, Well, that's always possible with any witness, right, 618 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 5: people can be pressured all the time. You know, his 619 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 5: testimony is your typical circumstantial evidence. That's very important to 620 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 5: an investigation because people weren't in the room and witnessed 621 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 5: the crime if that's where it happened. But when statements 622 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:50,879 Speaker 5: change later on, you know, as lawyers, you go and 623 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 5: you hold credibility in the closest in time to the event, 624 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 5: because our memories are better closer in time to the event. 625 00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 4: So it would just create an inconsistent statement. 626 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 5: Now if they tried to pressure the younger child to 627 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 5: change his testimony or say he was thinking of a 628 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,720 Speaker 5: different room, so that would lose credibility on some level 629 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 5: because of the original statement. And Nancy, I want to 630 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 5: point something out that the stepbrother could have been in 631 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 5: court for another reason. The federal government, oddly enough, is 632 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,759 Speaker 5: very good at telling you you're the target of an investigation. 633 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,919 Speaker 5: They normally do that in my white collar cases, well 634 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 5: before a charge, well before anything. And what they tell 635 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,439 Speaker 5: you is you're now a target of an investigation. 636 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 4: You may want to seek counsel. 637 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 5: When Sydney indicated he walked in with the public defender, 638 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 5: he may have simply been in court because the federal 639 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 5: government identified him as a target and the court now 640 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,439 Speaker 5: has to appoint counsel for him because he can't afford one. 641 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 4: They can do that hearing, and do that before charges 642 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 4: are ever filed, and charges. 643 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,840 Speaker 5: May never be filed. But that could also be a 644 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 5: reason why he was in court and left. And we 645 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 5: don't see anything in the system outside to the juvenile side. 646 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 5: But there's always back to your original question, there's always, 647 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:09,800 Speaker 5: you know, witness tampering, people talking to witnesses did you 648 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 5: you know? Change her testimony later on, but that would 649 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,760 Speaker 5: severely undercut the later change testimony because of the original statement. 650 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,800 Speaker 1: The child is dead. 651 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 2: Anna Kittner is dead, either clothed or partially clothed, stuffed 652 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 2: under a bed. The step brother is the main suspect. 653 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,439 Speaker 9: We do not know what condition her body was found, 654 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 9: if she was wearing clothes or not. 655 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 15: She just didn't feel safe around him. She's scared to 656 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 15: tell anybody because she was scared that he would do 657 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:39,959 Speaker 15: something sooner. 658 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,799 Speaker 11: Joshua too says Anna's close relationship with her stepbrother was 659 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,960 Speaker 11: one sided. The sixteen year old is obsessed with Anna 660 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 11: and made her uncomfortable with romantic advances. He once even 661 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 11: caught him trying to climb into Anna's bed while the 662 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 11: two were on FaceTime, Anna already asleep. 663 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 9: She said that I tried to tell the parents that 664 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,880 Speaker 9: this was happening, and they didn't want to believe me. 665 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: He's like infatuated, attracted to her, like crazy. He's always 666 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: one of the dator. 667 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 3: Chris doesn't realize it's his fault. This whole thing is 668 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 3: his fault. If he would have taken the warnings that 669 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,919 Speaker 3: Anna's ex boyfriend gave him, then she would still be here. 670 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,760 Speaker 3: So keep that in mind, Christopher, I blame you. 671 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 2: From our friends at Inside Edition and Just Mom nineteen 672 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 2: eighty four on TikTok. It's often said, when you don't 673 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 2: know a horse, look at his track record, Sidney Sumner, 674 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 2: Crime Stories. 675 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: What is being said? What are we hearing? 676 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 7: Well, we know very little about this team. Step brother 677 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 7: family member say he and Anna were best friends. We 678 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 7: do know they mentioned some kind of demons in this 679 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 7: child's past. Not sure what those are, what that could mean? 680 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 2: Sidney Sumner, did you not just hear what Anna Kettner's 681 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 2: little boyfriend said that he was on a FaceTime with 682 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 2: her and saw the teen's stepbrother climb on top of 683 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:20,239 Speaker 2: her with sexual intent. That she said she was afraid 684 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 2: of the stepbrother because of unwanted sex advances, and that 685 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 2: he the boyfriend, tried to warn the family this was happening, but. 686 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: Nobody wanted to hear it. 687 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 2: We just heard that, and now the stepbrother is put 688 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,320 Speaker 2: alone in a cabin. He's in the cabin alone, the 689 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,760 Speaker 2: little brother leaves, and she's dead well, right. 690 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 7: So obviously there's this big disparity between what the family 691 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 7: thought the siblings relationship was like and what her friend 692 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,800 Speaker 7: knew about what was going on. You're right that teenage 693 00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 7: ex boyfriend tried to warn Anna's parents something was amiss 694 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 7: in this relationship and that this stepbrother was dangerous to Anna, 695 00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,240 Speaker 7: but apparently no one listened. 696 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:10,720 Speaker 1: You know, just got Morgan. 697 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 2: When you put all of the evidence together, it's very, 698 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:21,400 Speaker 2: very disheartening, I imagine, especially for you as a death investigator, 699 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 2: in reading that autopsy report. 700 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:24,600 Speaker 1: This girl was killed. 701 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 2: She did not die accidentally, She did not die of 702 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 2: natural causes, She did not die of suicide. 703 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:37,760 Speaker 1: This is homicide, very clear. Nobody's in jail. 704 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,719 Speaker 2: The sixteen year old step brother, now almost seventeen, has 705 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,759 Speaker 2: walked free. He has been released after that federal court appearance. 706 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,120 Speaker 4: Why hard to know? 707 00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,359 Speaker 6: I can tell you this the pure definition of homicide, 708 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,959 Speaker 6: as we stated you know here, like when I teach 709 00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,280 Speaker 6: my students at Jack State is and it's not judgmental, Okay, 710 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 6: You're merely saying death at the hand of another. And 711 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,319 Speaker 6: in this particular case, this is not something where she 712 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,800 Speaker 6: slipped and fell on the end of the bed or 713 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 6: on a coffee table or something like this. Is there 714 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 6: a possibility that could have happened. I guess so in 715 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,799 Speaker 6: some other universe, perhaps this is what. 716 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,400 Speaker 2: So wait, are you saying there is a it's possible, 717 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:26,359 Speaker 2: It's possible, not even probable, but possible she slipped and 718 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,760 Speaker 2: died of asphyxiation in a bar hold. 719 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 6: What No, what I'm saying is that in some other 720 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 6: universe that that could be potential. I've never seen a 721 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,480 Speaker 6: case like this where you have direct pressure applied to 722 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 6: the neck and it has to be applied for a 723 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:50,160 Speaker 6: long period of time in order to impact the air flow. 724 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:50,720 Speaker 4: Nancy. 725 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:55,240 Speaker 6: This is something that would have would have required constant 726 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,360 Speaker 6: pressure across her neck or a protracted period of time 727 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 6: until every ounce of life was out of her body. 728 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 6: I think one of the big question is one of 729 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,400 Speaker 6: the big questions is is that whoever perpetrated this. I 730 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 6: would really like to know what was going on with 731 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:15,279 Speaker 6: them inside of their head relative to commit such an 732 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,960 Speaker 6: animalistic act on this young girl, Nancy. 733 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 1: You want to know what's sin, who's head. 734 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,399 Speaker 6: Whoever pulled this off? Because there is a perpetrator, This 735 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,200 Speaker 6: is not an accidental Yeah huh. 736 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 2: Joe Scott, you are a premier death investigator. 737 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:35,719 Speaker 1: But let me remind you. 738 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 2: Joe Scott that the state never has to prove motive. 739 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 2: It is not the state's duty to crawl into the 740 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,280 Speaker 2: head of a killer and think, Wow, wonder what happened, 741 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,400 Speaker 2: Wonder what he was thinking. Don't care what he was thinking. 742 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,239 Speaker 6: Okay, let me hang on now, hang on one second. Now, 743 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 6: let me tell you something here. My concern in addition 744 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 6: to this, is there somebody out there, they're roaming free 745 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 6: at this moment in time, that has the capability to 746 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,400 Speaker 6: commit this kind of savage act on other people. And 747 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:11,719 Speaker 6: I think that that is a genuine concern here from 748 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 6: an investigative standpoint, I don't want them on the street, 749 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 6: whoever in the hell did this. I don't want them 750 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 6: around other teenagers. I don't want them around. 751 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,280 Speaker 1: Well, you're preaching to the choir, Joe Scott. You're preaching 752 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:22,880 Speaker 1: to the choir. 753 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 2: And I don't have to know what was crawling around 754 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 2: in his head at the time he allegedly murdered Anna 755 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,480 Speaker 2: Keptner to know. I don't want him out around other 756 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 2: innocent victims. 757 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,680 Speaker 1: If you know or think you know. 758 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:43,040 Speaker 2: Anything about this case, please dial seven five four seven 759 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 2: zero three two thousand, seven five four seven zero three 760 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 2: two thousand. Nancy Gray signing off goodbye friend,