Speaker 1: Wind Down with Jenna Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2: Well, I think we should start this episode off with
Speaker 2: just talking about the mood that my husband's in right now.
Speaker 2: You are in the worst mood.
Speaker 1: I've also just noticed that my cup says you're an
Speaker 1: awesome mom. Keep that car. It just sums my morning up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been an interesting moment.
Speaker 2: You want to talk about it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do. I love that because I had to
Speaker 1: step into your shoes this morning and become but one
Speaker 1: of the things that you do, and you're like an
Speaker 1: expert at it, is promoting the products that people give
Speaker 1: to you. So I've obviously done a deal with the
Speaker 1: company which I won't name right now, and I had
Speaker 1: to do I had to do a real and a
Speaker 1: story and my whole world has just ended because I
Speaker 1: don't know how to do it. Okay, what's a morning
Speaker 1: in the life of all? And it's a it's a
Speaker 1: it's a product that you can take before enduring and
Speaker 1: after a workout. So I've had to structure that this morning,
Speaker 1: which I feared with my workout mm hmm, clearly, because
Speaker 1: then dolphins are not flown. I've been released, which is
Speaker 1: why I'm a cage line and then I had to
Speaker 1: put like a script together for it. So four hours
Speaker 1: later and it's still not complete. What's complete now?
Speaker 2: But again, can you put the reil together? Well, so
Speaker 2: it's not complete because that's another painful part of it.
Speaker 1: I'll get to that part stages, babe, please, But it
Speaker 1: gave me. I know it's it's a small part of
Speaker 1: what you what you do, bab and but it gave me.
Speaker 1: They don't have respect for you, know how much respect
Speaker 1: to have you? But give me another level of respect
Speaker 1: for you. How you structure these things that you do
Speaker 1: because I'm not easy. There's so much what goes into it.
Speaker 1: And I think partly is because I am so out
Speaker 1: of that saither like you have to explain Okay, well
Speaker 1: I know what I realized, but you have to explain, Okay,
Speaker 1: here's how your reel should look. How here's how your
Speaker 1: story should look. And I honestly I felt the whole model.
Speaker 1: I felt like a child would come back to school. Well,
Speaker 1: len about that stuff, and I'll get it quickly.
Speaker 2: I think there's a piece of this where well, first
Speaker 2: of all, you say it's a small part of what
Speaker 2: I do. The sad reality is It's a big part
Speaker 2: of what I do. Unfortunately, that is what pays the
Speaker 2: bills the most, is promoting products and doing Instagram influencing,
Speaker 2: which is something that I never thought that I would
Speaker 2: ever rely on that for income, but it is. It's
Speaker 2: what ultimately pays for a lot of things more than
Speaker 2: anything else that comes in. Is just the the reality
Speaker 2: with it. I've embraced it. But I think we had
Speaker 2: a point where we were going through something and you know,
Speaker 2: You're like, I'm not living my dream and this is
Speaker 2: my dream, dream, dream dream. And I remember I was
Speaker 2: in the middle of doing a reel for a product
Speaker 2: and I just I had this like yeah, where I
Speaker 2: was like, do you think this is my dream?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: And it wasn't even me getting angry towards you. It
Speaker 2: was more just of like, this isn't fun for me either,
Speaker 2: But I do this because it a supports my kids.
Speaker 2: It gives me a you know, a chance to be
Speaker 2: able to be flexible and be somewhat of a stay
Speaker 2: at home mom and like present and you know, not
Speaker 2: be at the grind of being out touring all the
Speaker 2: time and being away and and I think at times,
Speaker 2: so there's like that piece of it. So it's like
Speaker 2: it's not like I enjoy doing it because it's not
Speaker 2: it it takes up a lot of time, and I
Speaker 2: think it's really hard because when I talked to not
Speaker 2: even like my it's not my parents are just anybody
Speaker 2: that doesn't understand like that world of things. Even I
Speaker 2: guess you at the time, it's like you don't realize
Speaker 2: how much time actually goes into it. It just thinks, oh,
Speaker 2: you're just promoting a product because on Instagram it just
Speaker 2: just looks like it took thirty to ninety seconds because
Speaker 2: that's all the film was. And it's like it's actually
Speaker 2: so much more because you want it to look good
Speaker 2: and you put the detail into it, and then it
Speaker 2: takes that it's truly becomes a job and it becomes
Speaker 2: it takes likes it took up your morning, and you
Speaker 2: realize how much work actually goes in it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not that I don't want to do it,
Speaker 1: and it's not the it's just you have a process
Speaker 1: in place with it, whereas I don't, and I don't
Speaker 1: I don't do it. So it was almost like relearning
Speaker 1: something because I used to do a lot of Instagram
Speaker 1: stuff before I was I went to England.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember your secret deodorant thing ad that I
Speaker 2: saw on Yeah.
Speaker 1: I used to do a lot of it, but they
Speaker 1: would piece it all together for me. So it just
Speaker 1: going back to Okay, I need to I've got a lot.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about a load of other things at the moment.
Speaker 1: So I was like, Okay, how do I prioritize my
Speaker 1: focus on this and structure? Whereas you've now got a
Speaker 1: process in place with.
Speaker 2: It, but it still takes up time, It still takes
Speaker 2: up hours, and it does the energy.
Speaker 1: Because you have we both have high standards with what
Speaker 1: we do, so you want to do it properly. So
Speaker 1: if you're want to do something, you may as well
Speaker 1: do it to the best of your ability. So if
Speaker 1: I'm like, like the hardest bit is me sitting in
Speaker 1: the swing to your sanctuary room, You're like, Okay, put
Speaker 1: this on the mirror, the mirror and then just go
Speaker 1: through your story and tell them Like it took me
Speaker 1: like forty five minutes just to do my story. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like this is not good enough. You need to
Speaker 1: step your levels up here. So I went and get
Speaker 1: my iPad and I noted down key points and sat
Speaker 1: it below the below the phone so that when I'm
Speaker 1: looking at the iPad, it looks like I'm looking at
Speaker 1: the camera. So I cheated my acting days coming in now.
Speaker 2: Oh boy, well we're all rooting on influencer Alan. But
Speaker 2: it is nice. It's almost like, you know, when you
Speaker 2: step into I remember when we were kids. This is
Speaker 2: the worst example, but I'm gonna do it anyways. Uh,
Speaker 2: the parents were always like, oh, why can't you do that?
Speaker 2: And it's like, oh, really, why can't I do a
Speaker 2: double axle on? You know, And so it was a
Speaker 2: day where the parents had to put on the skates
Speaker 2: and it's like, why can't you do that?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Why?
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: So it's it's nice. It's kind of showing things if
Speaker 2: you're not used to doing them, or even when you
Speaker 2: do do them, it's not easy. It's not no, it's
Speaker 2: it's hard.
Speaker 1: It's hard if you want to do it properly, like
Speaker 1: I could have half off it and done it in
Speaker 1: a noah or two hours.
Speaker 2: But yeah, that's still pointing in that, Well, how can
Speaker 2: we change the attitude because when you were doing your
Speaker 2: store and by the way, I just want to be
Speaker 2: I just want to be clear. And the fact that
Speaker 2: I was more like, even though you sent me the
Speaker 2: brief and you're like, you're okay, I still was like,
Speaker 2: this is what you can do, but it's your thing,
Speaker 2: so you do whatever you want to do, okay. And
Speaker 2: so that's where you know, I at least wanted to say,
Speaker 2: like I wasn't like this is how you have to
Speaker 2: do it. You can do it however you want to
Speaker 2: do it. But when I did come in the sanctuary
Speaker 2: and I was trying to show you because you were like, well,
Speaker 2: what does three frames mean? And so what I'm trying
Speaker 2: to like explain to you, all right, so you're paid
Speaker 2: for one story but within three frames, and then you
Speaker 2: just kind of gave me a look, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm going to exit this right now because this attitude
Speaker 2: is not for me or meant for me at this moment.
Speaker 2: And I love you.
Speaker 1: Just the reflection of how much I hated myself at
Speaker 1: that moment.
Speaker 2: The thing, you poor thing. You're getting paid to promote
Speaker 2: a product, and.
Speaker 1: It's disgusting only to slap myself in the face and be.
Speaker 2: Like you spoiled little yeah, yeah, okay, well I just
Speaker 2: did for you. But it's hard Anyways, Okay.
Speaker 1: You're getting seven hundred and fifty thousand to promote this
Speaker 1: one product for two was what?
Speaker 2: I only get twenty grand for a vibrator? What are
Speaker 2: you talking about? Which, by the way, I'm joking, are
Speaker 2: you we against? Because against? You don't hate that? Do
Speaker 2: you hate the vibrator? Ad? No, wonder it's a little
Speaker 2: bit more than that. But I'm just it's hard to
Speaker 2: turn that down. I got child support and be.
Speaker 1: Careful what I say here on camera. But how would
Speaker 1: you like it if I was promoting what a men's
Speaker 1: masturbating machine and I'm and I'm sitting like, yeah, go on, guys,
Speaker 1: I can't even do the action because being appropriate, being inappropriate.
Speaker 1: Go on, guys, you deserve this. Man time is so
Speaker 1: important for your mental health. You deserve this. And get
Speaker 1: the machine down there, going in twenty five mile. Now
Speaker 1: it's almost like my wife can't do it properly. So
Speaker 1: now I've got this machine. Go on, you deserve this.
Speaker 2: I think it's different. Oh I want to believe it's different. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: And plus there's nothing like that, is there?
Speaker 1: No? I thought about the woobie.
Speaker 2: Do you think so?
Speaker 1: What a machine that beats a guy off of course
Speaker 1: of Obie.
Speaker 2: It's interesting. I mean, I guess when you do flip it,
Speaker 2: it's in you know, it's not.
Speaker 1: Like I have to use it though the man time
Speaker 1: pro three. You deserve this, listen.
Speaker 2: I mean it's not an easy ad to do. I'll
Speaker 2: say that, but I do because you block my mom
Speaker 2: and dad. I block everybody. I know everybody, grandparents, are
Speaker 2: your parents, stepson, I mean everybody. It's so niece's nephews.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty secure and that I'm good. You can post
Speaker 1: what you want.
Speaker 2: I know, but I do get it, like I do
Speaker 2: see that and I'm like, but it's again, it's it's
Speaker 2: very hard with yeah, with with you know, the industry
Speaker 2: that I'm in the lack of.
Speaker 1: You're going to wear your classices?
Speaker 2: Am I what?
Speaker 1: You going to wear your glasses when you post about it?
Speaker 2: Why?
Speaker 1: Because you like sexy your classes? Go on, ladies, you
Speaker 1: deserve this.
Speaker 2: Love your sexy librarian.
Speaker 1: Love yourself and your secretary. Thank you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, moving on, we have Do you wanna because
Speaker 2: you deep dived on her this morning or last.
Speaker 1: Night with a deep dive that my research as I
Speaker 1: normally do because I'm not as natural as this as you.
Speaker 2: Are at this, No, I need to do better at that.
Speaker 1: I like to just pack things up so quickly. Well
Speaker 1: with the Yeah, her name's Sarah Kubrick, I'm sure that's
Speaker 1: how you pronounce itbridge. And she's a millennial therapist.
Speaker 2: Which we're millennials, aren't we. I think so, I think,
Speaker 2: I think I think we are. Where do you? Because
Speaker 2: her big thing is psychotherapy, she unpacks self loss, so
Speaker 2: giving us new vocabulary to understand the royally talked about
Speaker 2: experienced offers tools she used for years to help clients recover.
Speaker 2: Self loss becomes apparent when we do not recognize ourselves
Speaker 2: in our actions, words, or relationships, when we lose sight
Speaker 2: of who we truly are and feel the pain and
Speaker 2: emptiness from performing or observing life rather than living it.
Speaker 2: I'm curious you said that with that breathing Where for
Speaker 2: you have you? I mean I can probably already guess
Speaker 2: which time, but you're biggest self loss time in your life?
Speaker 2: And how did you regain that self loss?
Speaker 1: Yeah? My biggest self loss was the period from eighteen
Speaker 1: to twenty two.
Speaker 2: Really, do you want to talk about the moment or no?
Speaker 2: One moment that impact? I don't and that's okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think some people will lose themselves because of
Speaker 1: one incident. Some people will lose themselves because of a
Speaker 1: combination in period. And I don't think you get it
Speaker 1: back quickly. But one of the one of the biggest
Speaker 1: ways of I mean, structure helps you get things back
Speaker 1: and focus. To be honest, one of the biggest things
Speaker 1: that helped me become myself a given as you me.
Speaker 2: In which area because you know how they always say
Speaker 2: that like a person shouldn't be like you should be okay,
Speaker 2: like you were okay on your own obviously, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I had to do. Everyone has to do their own work.
Speaker 1: And a period or a situation on our occurrence has
Speaker 1: to sit with you until you're ready to to actually
Speaker 1: deal with it and move on and become either yourself
Speaker 1: again or a better version of of who you were before.
Speaker 1: But I think having finding finding love in you and
Speaker 1: and not that that's the wrong way, not that at
Speaker 1: taxed all my happiness towards you, But you came in
Speaker 1: and you were like the most amazing person and women
Speaker 1: and kind and ambitious and beautiful, and you had your
Speaker 1: own traumas from the past, which we shared and discussed
Speaker 1: and so I think there was a big part of
Speaker 1: you coming in at that point where I was on
Speaker 1: the I was on the healing side of it, but
Speaker 1: then you came in and I regained my confidence on
Speaker 1: like love and appreciation that there's actually the right person
Speaker 1: in your person is out there if you get through
Speaker 1: the tough times and you navigate through the tough times
Speaker 1: and you don't let yourself lost dictate a whole life.
Speaker 1: But it's tough. It's tough for people. So it will
Speaker 1: be interesting to hear what hard description if she's an expert,
Speaker 1: and that she's a psychotherapist, what hard description of self
Speaker 1: loss is, and how people and like for the listeners
Speaker 1: as well, like there's an education piece on how do
Speaker 1: people get out of that self loss? I think so much,
Speaker 1: so much of the population is lost.
Speaker 2: Well, that was really sweet and I'll share my where
Speaker 2: I believe you also came in for me. But she
Speaker 2: is here, so let's take a break and then get
Speaker 2: Sarah on.
Speaker 1: Hi, Hi, hie, Sarah.
Speaker 2: Nice to meet you, real nice to meet you too.
Speaker 2: So we'll just hop right in. Alan was just saying,
Speaker 2: I'll let you kind of repeat what you were saying
Speaker 2: about the self lost piece of things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were just talking about periods in your life
Speaker 1: where you feel or a period in your life where
Speaker 1: you feel that you've lost yourself, whether it's one incident
Speaker 1: or it's a combination, and a period that's that's gradually
Speaker 1: got you to a point where you lose yourself. And
Speaker 1: I was just saying, it would be really interesting to
Speaker 1: see and hear your description of what actually self loss
Speaker 1: is and what you do, because you're an expert in
Speaker 1: your field. So people might feel like, oh, I've lost
Speaker 1: myself when they really haven't, like what really deems someone
Speaker 1: losing themselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because that's an interesting thing because people will say, oh,
Speaker 2: I've lost myself, right, because there's times when I've walked
Speaker 2: into therapy and I'm like, I'm depressed and she goes, well,
Speaker 2: let's let's go through the steps, like and then I'm like, well, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I don't and then it said so she's like, okay,
Speaker 2: so it's not that. So let's then like, so you
Speaker 2: might be feeling sad, but like let's let's like let's
Speaker 2: if they're gonna say those words, let's really attach them
Speaker 2: to what you know, the truth is. So oh I
Speaker 2: love that.
Speaker 3: So much, And I actually do this with my clients
Speaker 3: all the time, like I'm so angry, and then we'll
Speaker 3: kind of discuss him, like, well, are you sure you're angry,
Speaker 3: Maybe you are hurt, maybe you are whatever it is.
Speaker 3: And so getting them to find the word that actually
Speaker 3: defines what they're feeling is really powerful. And I think
Speaker 3: a lot of people will go, I'm feeling lost, and
Speaker 3: sometimes they say that when they don't know what to do.
Speaker 3: And that's not the same thing necessarily being like confused,
Speaker 3: being uncertain, being frustrated with yourself, not temporarily being not
Speaker 3: attuned with yourself. It's not the same thing as being
Speaker 3: completely lost. To me, to be fully lost is to
Speaker 3: lack alliance, an alignment, and to feel like a stranger
Speaker 3: to yourself. So I had this one moment where I
Speaker 3: was maybe a little drunk in a whiskey bar in
Speaker 3: my twenties, and I remember looking in a mirror and
Speaker 3: genuinely just feeling like I didn't know this person. I
Speaker 3: didn't recognize her. She was a complete complete stranger to me.
Speaker 3: And although that that's an extreme version of it, I
Speaker 3: do think it's just not knowing. It's not just I
Speaker 3: can't get in touch with myself temporarily. But it's like
Speaker 3: I have no idea because the self I don't think
Speaker 3: is found, it's created, and it means you haven't created
Speaker 3: your sense of self in that moment.
Speaker 2: That's interesting, I think. And I don't want to put
Speaker 2: this on you if this isn't true, Alan, but I
Speaker 2: just from observing you and then knowing me too. A
Speaker 2: lot of times where my self loss comes in is whether, well, a,
Speaker 2: if I wasn't this is like you know, pre pre
Speaker 2: my divorce was you know, if the relationship, if I
Speaker 2: wasn't in a good relationship, I would feel kind of
Speaker 2: lost and then wondering where my life is going. But
Speaker 2: now in this relationship, I feel like my loss goes
Speaker 2: more like what am I doing with my life? Like
Speaker 2: sometimes like if we're not getting a job opportunity and
Speaker 2: you know, kind of same with him, like our jobs
Speaker 2: are so not typical and they're massive. There's more disappointment
Speaker 2: than there is getting jobs, and so it's you know,
Speaker 2: we kind of well, we'll have wins sometimes, but then
Speaker 2: most of the time it's like, oh, we just lost this,
Speaker 2: and it's just like and then we both go to
Speaker 2: a place of what am I doing with my life.
Speaker 2: I have not you know, I'm just like this list loss,
Speaker 2: like we have nothing and we're just like you know,
Speaker 2: and but it really affects us. And so it's like,
Speaker 2: how do you not let that piece of that self loss?
Speaker 2: Is that self loss? And then like how do you
Speaker 2: not let that just take over every all the goodness
Speaker 2: that is actually around?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. I think that sounds a
Speaker 3: bit like an existential crisis of like what am I
Speaker 3: doing here? Like what is the freaking point? And that's
Speaker 3: not necessarily the same a self loss of like I
Speaker 3: don't know who I am, but they can go hand
Speaker 3: in hand, particularly when we overidentify with a role. So
Speaker 3: I have this horrifying story that when I was dating
Speaker 3: someone again in my twenties. He was this auzy surfer
Speaker 3: dude and I was very smitten and we went out
Speaker 3: a couple times and I was like, I'm living the dream.
Speaker 3: I was like visiting For a second. He's like, you know,
Speaker 3: you seem like a really nice girl, So I'm going
Speaker 3: to tell you the truth as to why this is
Speaker 3: not going to work out for us, And I was
Speaker 3: like real and comfortable. I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: I'm being dumped and he's going to tell me why
Speaker 3: I think this is terrible. I don't want to know.
Speaker 3: And he looks at me and he goes, you're so
Speaker 3: incredibly boring, and I was like, really obviously appendic because
Speaker 3: I think I'm a hoot, I'm pretty funny. I was like,
Speaker 3: what are you talking about? And he goes, it's because
Speaker 3: all you talk about is akademia. He's like, I've never
Speaker 3: had a conversation with you that didn't end up being
Speaker 3: about grad school, that didn't end up being about psychology,
Speaker 3: that didn't end up being about existentialism. He's like, it
Speaker 3: is just so boring to talk to you. And although
Speaker 3: I think that was a little harsh, probably unecessary, there's
Speaker 3: other ways to communicate that. It was such a good
Speaker 3: eye opener because in that moment, I actually realized I
Speaker 3: didn't know anything else to talk about, and I had
Speaker 3: no other role that I was really identifying with. So
Speaker 3: I felt like, if you took that away from me,
Speaker 3: there would be no one to see. And this was
Speaker 3: before kind of my big breakdown over self loss. And
Speaker 3: so I think when it comes to career stuff, when
Speaker 3: it gets really dangerous, or when it shifts from like
Speaker 3: an existential crisis to more like self loss is when
Speaker 3: we over identify with that role of being an actor,
Speaker 3: being an athlete, being a psychologist, being an account and
Speaker 3: then that isn't being sort of given back to us,
Speaker 3: and there are no opportunities, and now we feel like
Speaker 3: there's nothing else that's left. And so what's really helpfully
Speaker 3: in those moments is to realize what other roles you have,
Speaker 3: and that your identity comprises of a lot of roles,
Speaker 3: and that you can choose which ones you want to honor,
Speaker 3: which ones you want to lean into, which ones you
Speaker 3: want you know, to have meaning in. And so I
Speaker 3: think that that can really help because it is devastating
Speaker 3: and it's just subjectively shitty when when things don't work
Speaker 3: out with our career, but more so when we kind
Speaker 3: of hang our identity on that.
Speaker 1: It's a really good answer. Yeah, because I've become a
Speaker 1: barista because I just make myself coffees.
Speaker 2: Well, No, he's what he what he does specifically is
Speaker 2: like and and I do the same thing where I'm like,
Speaker 2: I'm just a shady after and I'm never going to
Speaker 2: work ever again, and like I've got absolutely nothing and
Speaker 2: then Alan's like, you know, I just cut the grass
Speaker 2: and you know, I've like and he's like, I'm just
Speaker 2: going to be, you know, and then he goes to
Speaker 2: his cabin alone in the woods that's actually not a
Speaker 2: real place, but it's a real place in his mind.
Speaker 2: So then he just like pushes away. And so I
Speaker 2: think we both just don't do well with what we
Speaker 2: want to have come to fruition and then it's like
Speaker 2: taken Like it's like our dreams are like taken away.
Speaker 2: We lose our identity.
Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, it's a really good it's a really
Speaker 1: good point that you make on the identity because particularly
Speaker 1: because we've done it with whole life, so when it
Speaker 1: doesn't serve you the way that, when it doesn't give
Speaker 1: you back what you put into it, it becomes really
Speaker 1: frustrating and disappointing. And that kind of leads me to
Speaker 1: my next point, which is something that you you have
Speaker 1: you have said previously, is about feeling people feel more
Speaker 1: in control by reliving old pathons. So when you lose
Speaker 1: the role, or you lose like I go, don't get
Speaker 1: considered for a head coach and whatever it may be,
Speaker 1: you almost feel okay, right, I'm gonna I'm going to
Speaker 1: manage this by doing what I used to do to
Speaker 1: feel comfortable. And you almost tend to unless you stop yourself.
Speaker 1: You slip into old pathons, don't you. How do you?
Speaker 1: I think? And again, I think it's really big for
Speaker 1: our for our listeners, because so many people, when they
Speaker 1: get disappointment or they feel heart or they feel pain,
Speaker 1: will automatically default and deviate to those to those patterns
Speaker 1: where they feel more in control and more comfortable. How
Speaker 1: do people stop doing that or how do you help
Speaker 1: people stop doing that? Because I think it's a big
Speaker 1: one for us as well, isn't it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting when we don't achieve our goals, we
Speaker 3: go back to doing the same thing that made us
Speaker 3: not achieve our goals in the first place. And this
Speaker 3: is this is not just you know, maybe in our
Speaker 3: professional lives, it's also in relationships. It's like, these types
Speaker 3: of conversations led to this argument or left to like,
Speaker 3: led to the fact that you guys are not sleeping
Speaker 3: in the same bed. So maybe let's know, let's not
Speaker 3: go not go back to those patterns even though they
Speaker 3: feel super familiar. And that's something about our brains that
Speaker 3: familiar feel safe. And so my question with my clients
Speaker 3: is always how can we make you feel safe to
Speaker 3: try something different, because what you're seeking is safety, like
Speaker 3: control is often just sort of a manifestation of fear,
Speaker 3: And so how can we make you feel safe trying
Speaker 3: something different that will then maybe lead to a different result.
Speaker 3: And I think it's also important to emphasize that sometimes
Speaker 3: what we think will make us happy won't. I don't
Speaker 3: know if you've ever had like a goal where like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, I must achieve this. Then you had
Speaker 3: it and you're like, Okay, of course that was like
Speaker 3: a little disappointing.
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's a what's next, But I think
Speaker 2: there's also like it might and you even said this too,
Speaker 2: like you might not like as much as I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I want to be a series regular again on a
Speaker 2: TV show, I might hate doing that again, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean, Like I've gotten so comfortable and happy
Speaker 2: and you know, good and this what I am doing
Speaker 2: and being able to be home and so flexible, and
Speaker 2: I might hate that schedule again. And you might not
Speaker 2: like the schedule when you have to be away so
Speaker 2: much again, you know, and it might not be actually
Speaker 2: what we're making it out to be this like dream
Speaker 2: of like every it's going to be I will be
Speaker 2: so happy when X happens.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we either romanticized the unknown or we're completely scared
Speaker 3: of it.
Speaker 2: And I mean he romanticizes and I'm scared of it.
Speaker 2: And that's where we then.
Speaker 3: Are amazing.
Speaker 2: The fallout of the full spectrum.
Speaker 3: But we're never just curious about it. I think we're
Speaker 3: so committed one way or or another. We're like, this
Speaker 3: going to be amazing. And then there are so many
Speaker 3: people that are achieve amazing things, objectively amazing, but because they
Speaker 3: weren't aligned with them, because it wasn't really there, it
Speaker 3: was an authentic they they're disappointed and they assume that
Speaker 3: getting this one thing would make life worth living. And
Speaker 3: now that they're at the top, they go, well, and
Speaker 3: it's scary because you're like, I don't know where else
Speaker 3: to climb. So there is that one alternative, and then
Speaker 3: there is the I'm so scared and so I'm not
Speaker 3: even going to try it. And it goes back to
Speaker 3: like safety honesty, being honest about the situation, about the outcome,
Speaker 3: and just being curious of like, well, I enjoy this
Speaker 3: there's so many things I thought I would enjoy and
Speaker 3: then I did it, and then I try to convince
Speaker 3: myself that I'm enjoying them for a long time until
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, this actually it's all It's all
Speaker 3: in my head. I convinced myself to enjoy this. And
Speaker 3: I think this is where self loss happens too. Like
Speaker 3: something that you said at the start was just so
Speaker 3: bang on of Like, I think either it happens gradually
Speaker 3: or there's a big event that kind of fractures your
Speaker 3: sense of self, maybe something traumatic or a loss or
Speaker 3: a divorce or even becoming a parent, just a transitional phase.
Speaker 3: And then there are subtle things that we do, which
Speaker 3: is betray ourselves, abandon ourselves, not pay attention to ourselves
Speaker 3: that can then lead to this like huge disconnect.
Speaker 2: What are some ways that you talk about in your
Speaker 2: book It's on me how to reconnect with yourself?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I talk a lot about the fact that
Speaker 3: it's a lot more simple than we think it is,
Speaker 3: but it's a lot of work. So it's simple but hard.
Speaker 3: It's not complicated, And I often think about it in
Speaker 3: terms of imagine you're having a relationship with someone else,
Speaker 3: it's the exact same thing. We assume that because we
Speaker 3: are us, we will understand ourselves, we will like ourselves.
Speaker 3: But that's just not true. And so many people stry
Speaker 3: for self love and I think that that's a really
Speaker 3: admirable goal, and as an existentialist, I kind of chuckle
Speaker 3: a little bit and I was like, Okay, let's let's
Speaker 3: take it back. So for me to be able to
Speaker 3: love yourself, you first need to know yourself. And people
Speaker 3: skip that step. They try to go into like I'm
Speaker 3: gonna love this, my I'm gonna love and they can't
Speaker 3: define the me the I. And so it's like, do
Speaker 3: you know yourself? Do you accept who you see? Do
Speaker 3: you respect the person that you see? Do you like
Speaker 3: spending time with this person? And then maybe we can
Speaker 3: kind of get to love. And so that's what I
Speaker 3: talk about in my book of like are you connecting
Speaker 3: with yourself mentally? Are you connecting with your body? Are
Speaker 3: you connecting with your emotions? And it's not you know,
Speaker 3: the body is the trickiest one where I think a
Speaker 3: lot of people think of their body just as a
Speaker 3: vessel or a tool. And I think this is where
Speaker 3: we miss out, where I think you are your body
Speaker 3: and your body is you, and so if you mistreat
Speaker 3: your body, which so many of us do, is going
Speaker 3: to lead to self loss. And no matter how emotionally
Speaker 3: in touch you are, or intellectually you can kind of
Speaker 3: conceptualize and self actualize, you're still going to feel really disconnected.
Speaker 3: So those are kind of three areas that I.
Speaker 2: Talk about, where do you think people lose Like like
Speaker 2: one of the first kind of flags for losing yourself,
Speaker 2: you know, like we always put a flag on other people,
Speaker 2: but if we could put a flag on ourself, Like,
Speaker 2: what would that be? Like the red flag that within
Speaker 2: us that we lose ourselves.
Speaker 3: I think not recognizing your own actions is a good one.
Speaker 3: I don't know, if you've ever done something and then
Speaker 3: looked at your sod be like what was that? Like
Speaker 3: you shock yourself, You kind of surprise yourself and not
Speaker 3: in a good way. I think that that's a really
Speaker 3: good one. And then also a lot of resentment. If
Speaker 3: you're feeling a lot of resentment, chances are you're doing
Speaker 3: a lot of things that are violating who you are.
Speaker 3: And if you do not pay attention, at some point,
Speaker 3: you might reach self loss. So I think those would
Speaker 3: be the two biggest. No one's ever asked me that question.
Speaker 2: By the way, Well, I feel like, you know, we
Speaker 2: all if other people can label people with red flags,
Speaker 2: it's like we should be able to lay ourselves with
Speaker 2: what our red flags are.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and I mean seeking identity and relationships. If
Speaker 3: we're talking about like red flags, If you're someone who
Speaker 3: always overly identifies with being a partner, and their preferences
Speaker 3: fully become your preferences, and their dream become your dream dreams,
Speaker 3: chances are that you don't actually know who you are,
Speaker 3: and they're just a crutch. They help you not feel
Speaker 3: the agony and the emptiness of not knowing yourself. So
Speaker 3: you take on their identity and where it as your
Speaker 3: own until that relationship ends.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Okay, So a lot of your stuff you talk about
Speaker 1: dating and relationships, don't you, And pardon a lot of
Speaker 1: your A lot of your work is dating in relationships.
Speaker 1: And I read something earlier that it was as I
Speaker 1: scrolled down your social media, and it's you that's not controversial,
Speaker 1: that body. It says they nineteen ninety six, you had
Speaker 1: me at Hello dating. In twenty twenty four, you had
Speaker 1: me at I go to therapy, which I thought was
Speaker 1: really funny. But I think I guess my question from
Speaker 1: that is, which of those periods you think is a
Speaker 1: was a healthier as a healthier time to date people?
Speaker 1: Was that the nineteen nineties a healthier dating era or
Speaker 1: is now this kind of period of people are And
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it they mask by the way,
Speaker 1: like walk people and people who now know themselves. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of it's fake in all, honestly, and
Speaker 1: use it as a smoke screen for all the bullshit
Speaker 1: that they do. But out of those two periods, what
Speaker 1: is it, what is a healthier Do you think now
Speaker 1: the modern dating and relationship is a healthier period for
Speaker 1: people or not? Or was it more simple in the
Speaker 1: past in the nineties?
Speaker 2: Whin as social media? So anything without social media is
Speaker 2: like a win in my book.
Speaker 1: Some people see that as a as a bonus because
Speaker 1: they can it can it can cast a like a
Speaker 1: mat and dragon more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's how you found me? Bad? Social media would
Speaker 2: never found me in the nineties.
Speaker 3: I love that it's cute. Well, you had me at
Speaker 3: hello is an incredibly low bar, So I would say,
Speaker 3: let's not do that. That kind of depresses me. I
Speaker 3: also think there's something so toxic, if I can say
Speaker 3: about that concept of like in that moment when they
Speaker 3: said hello to you, even if you're absolutely smitten, all
Speaker 3: you're doing is projecting on that person. And so when
Speaker 3: I see it that way, I'm like, Okay, I totally get.
Speaker 3: It was a simpler time, and maybe people weren't pretending
Speaker 3: to be as self enlightened, and they were just more
Speaker 3: honest about their faults and who they were, and people were,
Speaker 3: you know, maybe not complicating relationships as much. He was like,
Speaker 3: I love you, and now we're just going to make
Speaker 3: your work. And there is something really cute and idyllic
Speaker 3: about the way that love was portrayed in the nineties.
Speaker 3: And at the same time, that concept is very I mean,
Speaker 3: it's rooted in projection. So I saw you, I was
Speaker 3: attracted to you, and then I put my dreams on you,
Speaker 3: and it was like, yes, that is my person. Now
Speaker 3: you had me at you go to therapy. I like this.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 3: Do I think there's a lot of people that weaponize
Speaker 3: mental health? Yes? Do I think there's a lot of
Speaker 3: you know, like boys and people who like use all
Speaker 3: the right words because they are also on these therapy
Speaker 3: Instagram pages and have read the self help books and
Speaker 3: now they're using these words to sort of justify their
Speaker 3: own actions. And I'll see videos of this and they'll
Speaker 3: just be horrifying because if you heard them, you'll be like, Wow,
Speaker 3: this is a really educated individual. This is an individual
Speaker 3: that reads self help. And then the way that they
Speaker 3: use the words is very manipulative. It's very harm and
Speaker 3: so therapy can just be a gimmick. People can be
Speaker 3: like I go to therapy, I'm going to be such
Speaker 3: a great partner, and you know, it's kind of like
Speaker 3: a selling point. But I think if you genuinely see
Speaker 3: that someone is doing the work and is in therapy
Speaker 3: intentionally trying to be a better person, I think that
Speaker 3: makes all the difference, because your relationship is only going
Speaker 3: to be as good as who you are as individuals. Sure,
Speaker 3: and so I think that that's important to remember.
Speaker 2: In your book, you talk about mental decluttering. What is
Speaker 2: that and how can people do that? Because I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: I'd never even heard of that before.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's making space for yourself. I think a lot
Speaker 3: of us have mental noise, so a lot of beliefs,
Speaker 3: a lot of relationships that We're thinking about a lot
Speaker 3: of hobbies and habits and things that just take up
Speaker 3: so much space that when people talk about you know, okay, Sarah,
Speaker 3: well I want to be myself and I want to
Speaker 3: create myself. How do I do that? And I say,
Speaker 3: you have to mentally to clutter. What I mean is like,
Speaker 3: let's say you wanted to make a lasagna. I'm hungry,
Speaker 3: it's a dinner time. Let's say you want to make
Speaker 3: a lasagna. And then we walked into your kitchen and
Speaker 3: every pot and pan was used or dirty, The floor
Speaker 3: was sticky, the sink was overflowing with dishes, the oven
Speaker 3: already had things in it. You would have a really
Speaker 3: hard time making lasagna. And that's the same principle. You
Speaker 3: have to declutter. You have to actually make space so
Speaker 3: that you can start creating yourself. So the shoulds, the assumptions,
Speaker 3: the beliefs, all that stuff you need to put it
Speaker 3: on paper. You're like, what are all my shoulds? What
Speaker 3: are all the things I feel like I should do?
Speaker 3: What are all the things I believe about life, love, God, religion, politics,
Speaker 3: the body, literally anything, And just kind of have this
Speaker 3: process of like what do I want to keep and
Speaker 3: what do I not want to keep? What is going
Speaker 3: to be part of my lasagna? And what's not going
Speaker 3: to be part of my lasaga? Yeah, and I think
Speaker 3: that's an important thing to sort of think about. We
Speaker 3: have so much going on in the background at all times,
Speaker 3: and I'm sure as people who are in a relationship
Speaker 3: and parents, right, congratulations, you have so much that you
Speaker 3: probably think about. And you know you're thinking about your
Speaker 3: kid even if you're not with your kid, And so
Speaker 3: that's kind of the can you quiet the noise? Can
Speaker 3: you have time and space to actually be yourself and
Speaker 3: what needs to be there and what doesn't need to
Speaker 3: be there?
Speaker 2: Yeah? What do you want? The biggest takeaway to be
Speaker 2: from your book?
Speaker 3: Take responsibility for your life. I mean, it's called It's
Speaker 3: on Me, and that's I mean a pretty intense message
Speaker 3: and it makes it a really difficult Christmas book, although
Speaker 3: I think, you know, people should still buy each other
Speaker 3: in the book because it's I genuinely believe the responsibility
Speaker 3: is a beautiful thing. It's not blame. It's freedom and
Speaker 3: it's autonomy and realizing that, Okay, if you're living a
Speaker 3: life that you don't want, if you're being a version
Speaker 3: of yourself that you don't like, if you're you know,
Speaker 3: in this relationship dynamic that is not going super well,
Speaker 3: ask yourself, what is my responsibility recognizing that you can
Speaker 3: change yourself. Now it's trick here with other people in
Speaker 3: different dynamics, but what you can do is your own part.
Speaker 3: And you know, there was a time in my life
Speaker 3: where I really didn't like myself. Then I realized it
Speaker 3: was on me to change it. No one was going
Speaker 3: to change it for me. No one could change it
Speaker 3: for me. And so if you're feeling lost, if you're
Speaker 3: feeling disappointed, if you're feeling purposeless, if you're really struggling
Speaker 3: with meaning in your life, I think understanding that you
Speaker 3: have the capacity to change all of those things for
Speaker 3: yourself it's really.
Speaker 2: Powerful, Sarah, what would be the one thing? Because I
Speaker 2: love doing this to my therapist too, because I'm always like,
Speaker 2: you're not perfect, right, Like tell me like, let's flip Like,
Speaker 2: let's flip it. What's going on?
Speaker 3: You've done this?
Speaker 2: Like you said, you're not a square? Okay, like I've been.
Speaker 2: I was called that one time on a date, like
Speaker 2: you're such a square. I was like, oh okay, thanks,
Speaker 2: but so you're not boring. We're not boring, But what
Speaker 2: is one thing that you can take responsibility on today?
Speaker 2: And the question is going to you too, So.
Speaker 3: Oh, can I hear all your answer?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're all gonna we're all gonna take responsibility for
Speaker 2: something to close.
Speaker 3: Out safety circle like well with a couple.
Speaker 2: Of hundred thousand listeners. But it's fine, I.
Speaker 3: Mean, no big deal. I think something Actually this is
Speaker 3: really relevant because I've been working on it the last
Speaker 3: couple of days. I'm I'm working on too many things
Speaker 3: that I do not find meaning in anymore, and I
Speaker 3: just I am really struggling. I have way too much
Speaker 3: going on, way too many balls in the air and
Speaker 3: things that I don't even know how they got in
Speaker 3: the air. Now I'm like, what are you doing up there?
Speaker 3: And so I think I need to take responsibility for
Speaker 3: just genuinely cutting down and going back to just working
Speaker 3: on core things that I really care about, not only
Speaker 3: because I don't want to feel lost again, but because
Speaker 3: I think it's the healthier, loving thing to do. So
Speaker 3: I need to take responsibility for that.
Speaker 2: I think I need to take responsibility. Well, there's plenty
Speaker 2: of things, but I think one of the things that
Speaker 2: I was just recently talking to my therapist about was
Speaker 2: just I have so much I have like anger inside
Speaker 2: of me that I need to release pieces of that.
Speaker 2: And so I did do some amdr this session around it.
Speaker 2: But sometimes the people that are around me can maybe
Speaker 2: get that response because I'm just like dealing with so
Speaker 2: much or having some leftover resentment and anger, and where
Speaker 2: I just get, I get my fuse is short, and
Speaker 2: I need to maybe take some things off the plate
Speaker 2: so that my fuse isn't like that extreme and get
Speaker 2: frustrated easily.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think mine will be, and it's quite relevant
Speaker 1: to this conversation. Mine would be. I'm going to say
Speaker 1: responsibility for the clustering because it's affected me this morning.
Speaker 1: I've I've got so many things in the air that
Speaker 1: I should be doing, like you, but because I can't
Speaker 1: prioritize and put them in order of importance and how
Speaker 1: they should be done, I've become angry at myself. So
Speaker 1: therefore my emotions get the better of me. So I've
Speaker 1: got two things I need to prioritize declustering because that
Speaker 1: will that will help my anger and emotions.
Speaker 2: I like that, Y.
Speaker 3: Like we're gonna just like text each other in about
Speaker 3: a month and be like did you do it? Accountability?
Speaker 2: I'm going to be sliding into your DM thereah and
Speaker 2: being like okay.
Speaker 3: So yeah, this is not going well.
Speaker 1: Yeah the lasagna is not cooking in the oven.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or we've got tenels on you it's cooking and
Speaker 2: I've learned how to cook all of a sudden. So
Speaker 2: there we go.
Speaker 3: It's amazing.
Speaker 2: But I want, yeah, everyone take a little responsibility now
Speaker 2: and then go get it's on me. It's available now, Sarah,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2: Thank you appreciate it. Just laden and soon see you soon. Bye, okay,
Speaker 2: bye girl. Let was sweet. I think it's good that
Speaker 2: when people take it's the people that just point and
Speaker 2: don't point the finger back at themselves, you know, because
Speaker 2: I always said that where it was like post divorce,
Speaker 2: I'm like, I could point the finger at this person
Speaker 2: for the longest time, but I also need to reflect
Speaker 2: it back on me. And this is you know, I'm
Speaker 2: staring at myself in the mirror, So where do I
Speaker 2: clean up?
Speaker 1: Yeah? There's that, but those also I think some things
Speaker 1: you really hollered on yourself yeah, those are a sleek everything.
Speaker 1: Those a balance, Those are balance.
Speaker 2: You're right, all right? Well that was fun. How are
Speaker 2: you feeling? Are we feeling less heated, less angry? Or
Speaker 2: where are we at with your anger today? Because we
Speaker 2: day night later. So I just want to see how
Speaker 2: the rest of this day is going. But I've I
Speaker 2: don't know if you've noticed, but I don't take it
Speaker 2: on anymore your.
Speaker 1: Emotions, my midswings.
Speaker 2: No, I Just'm like, are he's in a mood?
Speaker 1: Which Alan is going to show up for at night tonight?
Speaker 2: To be determined when you guys watch our stories later?
Speaker 2: Is if you flash back to Wednesday? Was was there
Speaker 2: a candle at dinner? Or was Jannah alone? I love
Speaker 2: you