1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. And 4 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,159 Speaker 1: you know, we, uh, we all have a lot of 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: ideas about what Shane is. Certain images come to mind 6 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,119 Speaker 1: from our own life, from the world of fiction. But 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: but we're here to tell you the shame uh is 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: spider Man. Shame is spider Man. And let's explain that. 9 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: Let's unpack that because there were that there was an experiment, 10 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: all right, Yeah, Indeed, two thousand thirteen study published in 11 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. They took 12 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: more than seven hundred persisipents from Finland, Sweden, and Taiwan, 13 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: and they had them view emotion laden words, videos, facial expressions, 14 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: and stories. And then the Protestants self reported areas of 15 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: their bodies that felt diff print following the exposure. So 16 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: then they take they took this information and they used 17 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: to create computer generated silhouettes with the areas colored to 18 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: no areas of increased bodily sensation like red yellows and 19 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:17,759 Speaker 1: oranges and decreased cold blues. Okay, so the aim here 20 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,839 Speaker 1: was to map bodily sensations in connection with specific emotions, 21 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: and it ends up looking like an infrared image. By 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: the way it does. It looks like straight up infrared 23 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: predator imagery of of human body. But but it's not created. 24 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: That was created through self reporting, and really they're quite 25 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: interesting looking. Do check it out. Will include a link 26 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 1: to the study on the landing page for this episode. Yeah, 27 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: you should check it out. Because all of those emotions 28 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: are represented on the body, and the only emotion that 29 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: is a full bodied emotion that self reported is happiness, 30 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: which I think is not too surprising, right, um, But 31 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: the one that we are focusing on today, shame, Well, 32 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: it's represent ended in a way that the person the 33 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: silhouette kind of looks like Spider Man, indeed. Yeah. Whereas 34 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: happiness is like bright yellow face, yellow chest, and then 35 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: red over the rest of the body, Shame is uh, 36 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: mostly dark body, but also some red on the chest, 37 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: red face, and then these big sort of almond shaped 38 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,679 Speaker 1: yellow blotches right where our cheeks would be. But they 39 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: really do look like the large, low almond shaped eyes 40 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,959 Speaker 1: of everyone's favorite comic book Web Slinger. Now, this was 41 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: observed by a comment er on the the actual article, 42 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: which we thought was pretty clever. So we're like, yeah, shame, 43 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 1: shame does look like Spider Man in the body when 44 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: it's expressed. And anxiety, by the way, to me, looks 45 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: like dark Maul. Let's see, let's see whiche is anxiety? Yeah, yeah, 46 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: I'm getting a definite dark Maul kind of quality off 47 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: of that, kind of like streaks on the cheeks there. Yeah, 48 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: Sadness looks a little bit like um, like that painting 49 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: the the screen, you know. Well, yeah, I thought that too, 50 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: and I thought, yeah, that is suddness. Although the scream 51 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 1: I think it's supposed to be some sort of existential terror. Uh, 52 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: that's also sad too. Sadness also kind of looks, you know, 53 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: unsurprisingly like the ghost character on Yogaba Gabba Google. Google. Yeah, 54 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: it looks kind of like Google. I can't believe we 55 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: know that. All right, So obviously we're talking about shame today. Uh, 56 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: you know that that particular feeling that is evoked when say, 57 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 1: your grandmother says something like shema and you, Julie Douglas, 58 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: shema on you. Right. Um, there, there's a whole boatload 59 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: of stuff associated with shame. But first we should probably 60 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: define it. Yeah, and in this we get into the 61 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: basic meat of shame and guilt. They're often thought off 62 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: sort of that's the same thing, but they're different. They're 63 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: they're they're quite different, and it's just really important. Like 64 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: a lot hinges on this. Yes, So what's guilt? Right? 65 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: When do you feel guilt? You feel guilt when you 66 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: you have remorse for something you did, a specific crime, 67 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: specific action. There's this thing that you did and you're like, ah, 68 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: I did that, that that sucks, I'm sorry that I 69 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: did it. But then you have shame. And shame is 70 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: a little different. Shame is if it's attached to an action, 71 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: then it's more like, I can't believe I'm the type 72 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: of person who would do that. It's the painful feeling 73 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:29,799 Speaker 1: that arises from the consciousness of something dishonorable, improfitable, improfitable. 74 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: It's it's it's almost more tied to there's something wrong 75 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: with me. There's a fault in me, not a fault 76 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: in mere merely in my actions. Yeah. Sociologist burn A 77 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: Brown says, in the simplest term, shame is about who 78 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: we are, not what we've done. It's often lasting devastating 79 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: and makes us feel abnormal and alone. And she gives 80 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: some examples of her own research into this. When she's 81 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: looking at the difference between guilt and shame, says, guilt 82 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: is I did something bad. Shame is I am bad 83 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: or I made a flawed to decision or I am flawed. 84 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: So you see the pattern there. Yeah, there are fundamental 85 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: differences here that will will definitely pull apart in this episode, right, 86 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 1: and we're gonna talk about how powerful this emotion is shame, 87 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: I mean, how we can actually dictate the path of 88 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: your life and how you operate out in the world. 89 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: But first we have to look at one of shame's 90 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: calling cards, also guilt and embarrassments calling cards blushing. And 91 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: we'll look at Papa Darwin here, who in the Expression 92 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: of Emotions and Man and Animals, which he wrote in 93 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy two, looked at the movements of expression in 94 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: the face and the body, and was particularly interested in blushing. 95 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,679 Speaker 1: He said it is the most peculiar and the most 96 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: human of all expressions. Now, Darwin suspected that blushing had 97 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 1: to do with how we appear to others. He wrote, 98 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: mental states which induced blushing consists of shyness, shame, the modesty, 99 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: the essentially element in all being self attention. It is 100 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: not the simple act of reflecting on our own appearance, 101 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:10,119 Speaker 1: but the thinking of what others think of us, which 102 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 1: excites a blush, and he was onto something there. Um. 103 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: He also felt like the blushing was directly related to 104 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: the part of the body that the person was thinking 105 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: of or thought was being observed. In part, he thought 106 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: this because he was looking at a physicians account of 107 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: a woman who when she disrobed and her chest area 108 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: began to blush in her chest area. Now he was 109 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: taking his cues mostly from physicians accounts because he wasn't 110 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: going around making people blushing and gathering a bunch of data, 111 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: So that's where he was collecting some of his thoughts from. 112 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 1: And he also thought that blushing could have been genetic, 113 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: like this idea that the more your ancestors blushed, the 114 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: more robust it would show up or be selected for 115 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: in yourself. Um. That is this the full pick? Sure? No, um. 116 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 1: And in fact Darwin didn't distinguish between embarrassment and guilt 117 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: and shame um to try to get to the reasons 118 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: for blushing. He just kind of lumped them all in 119 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: one big pool. Um. In eighteen seventy one, he wrote 120 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: to his friend H. Wedgewood. He said, I wish I 121 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: had said more about shame, an awfully complex subject where 122 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: no two persons would ever quite agree, and I hardly 123 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: expect anyone will agree with me. But as yet I 124 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: naw my colors to the past. In other words, here's 125 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: what I've figured out so far about shame and blushing, 126 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: and I don't think it's the full picture, you know. 127 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,239 Speaker 1: And indeed the full picture is still kind of lacking today, 128 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: even though there's been a lot more study since that time. Um, 129 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: you know, with blushing, we're we're again. We're talking about 130 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: the involuntary reddening of a person's face due to emo 131 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: emotional stress. That might be anxiety, it could be romance, anger, embarrassment, 132 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: and of course shame. Now the questions arise, though, of course, 133 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: um you know exactly, you know, how is it coming 134 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: about physiologically? What are there different types of blushes? Uh? 135 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: You know, we observe things like the mere awareness of 136 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: a blush can cause it to increase. Being told that 137 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: you're blushing when you're not can cause the blush to 138 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: manifest um and and and certainly mileage varies from person 139 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: to person. We can we can all think of people 140 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: who blush more easily than others. Um. But scientists have asked, 141 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: is a blush a single phenomenon or are there different 142 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: kinds of blushing? Like how do you make sense of 143 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: the fact that you have like that sudden blush, like 144 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: like oops, did something embarrassing? Oops, I'm really shamed. Just 145 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 1: total red face versus the creeping blush that might manifest, 146 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: you know, slowly during the course of a presentation or 147 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: a speech or an increasingly intense conversation. As a psychologist 148 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: Ray Kroizer points out, it's an it's an understuddied area. 149 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: It's an understudied area of human expression. Part of this 150 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: is big. The blush is difficult to measure, even with 151 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:06,959 Speaker 1: our modern tools, even with you know, thermal sensors and cameras. Uh. 152 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: The fleeting blush, especially like the micro expression of blushes, 153 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: is very difficult to study. And the physiology of the 154 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: blush itself is really a complex tapestry that involves the 155 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: sympathetic nervous system and its regulation. It involves uh brandy 156 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,359 Speaker 1: kinon of compound released in the blood in some circumstances 157 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: that causes contraction of smooth muscles and the dilation of 158 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,719 Speaker 1: blood vessels. Histamine, nitric oxide, and a number of other 159 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: combined factors uh and plus you can throw into the 160 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: into and you can also throw into the mix that 161 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: there are plenty of other things that can make your 162 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: face flush, not only emotions, but you know, hot flashes, exercises, 163 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 1: sexual arousal, um, you name it. Well, there's also the 164 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: kind of blush that can arise when you do have 165 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,079 Speaker 1: attention directed towards you. But it's pleasurable, right, Maybe it's 166 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: some sort of positive experience in your blushing, but it 167 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,439 Speaker 1: then can become negative because you're called out for it. 168 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 1: So there's a changeability to blushing. Um. And there there 169 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: are a ton of different kinds as you say that 170 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: we haven't really gotten to the bottom of, and a 171 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: bunch of different sources for blushing. But I think most 172 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:22,599 Speaker 1: people can relate to a blushing related to unwanted attention 173 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: at one time or another in your life. Right. And 174 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: in order to get to the depths of the self 175 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: conscious blush, there was a study conducted by Peter D. 176 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: Drummond and Nadia Mirco. This was published in the March 177 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: two thousand and four edition of Psychotherapy, with the paper 178 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: uh titled staring at one side of the face increases 179 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: blood flow on that side of the face. Okay, so 180 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: let's figure out what they did here, because I think 181 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: that gives you a clue to at least one of 182 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: their methods. The setup is this. They had twenty eight 183 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: participants who were asked to either sing out loud or 184 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: read out loud. Robert, what would your preference be? It 185 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: comes down to who's uh, who's watching? You know, I'm 186 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 1: going to be more comfortable reading. But but singing is 187 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: a different a different situation entirely. It's a different experience, 188 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: a different communication, a different expression of yourself. Uh. Right, 189 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: Reading is more it's a normative thing, right, Like you're 190 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: talking right now. You can read at the same pace. 191 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: There's not a lot of difference there. But singing out 192 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: of context, like when you're not on a stage really 193 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: kind of uh draws a lot of attention, right, says, Hey, 194 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: look at me doing something totally weird out of context. Um. 195 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: So that's why they chose this, and this is what 196 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: they found. Increases in cheek temperature were greater on the 197 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: observed than the unobserved side during both tasks. Okay, changes 198 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 1: in cheek temperature were symmetrical when the experiment or sat 199 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: next to another twenty three participants and looked straight ahead, 200 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: as well when the experiment or stared at one side 201 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 1: of participants face through a glass window while the participants 202 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: would sing. However, increases in cutaneous blood flow were greater 203 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: on the observed and the unobserved side of the forehead 204 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: during singing. Okay, there's more blushing going on on one 205 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: side of the face. Um, So I think that gives 206 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,599 Speaker 1: you a bit of a clue as to that unwanted 207 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: attention and how it would act on the body. Okay, 208 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: And of course, as we were discussing before we came 209 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: into record, I imagine this this may differ depending on 210 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: how musical one's family upbringing is, or how how prone 211 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: one is to break into song in their daily life. Right, 212 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: if you were really off key, perhaps you would have 213 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: a scarlet blush, which might even be sort of saying 214 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: I apologize. And indeed, that's a whole other argument that 215 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: that blushing is a signal to your fellow. Your fellow 216 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: primates to to communicate something. Uh. Now, when it comes 217 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: to primate it's it's worth noting and I think I've 218 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: mentioned this in the past when you when you look 219 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,719 Speaker 1: at social and non social primates, the non social ones, 220 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 1: the loners, that's where you tend to find the really 221 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: crazy looking uh, primate faces, that's where you see, you know, 222 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: a whole lot of colors and and uh and and 223 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: and and just crazy stuff going on, you know, like 224 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: really the eye catching primates. But the social primates, those 225 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: are the ones that are gonna have the planer faces, 226 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: the place that the faces that there's less remarkable coloration 227 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: going on. And that's because the face, as with humans, 228 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: is essentially um a communications array. You know, it's for 229 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: the use of expressions and micro expressions to communicate what 230 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: you're feeling and what you're about to do to those 231 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: around you. And so the argument here is that the 232 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: blush is pretty much the same. Now, if it is, 233 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: then what is a blush saying? Well? According to clinical 234 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 1: psychologist and author Robert J. Edelman has done a lot 235 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: of work with blushing and shame, He says that it's 236 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: essentially saying, hey, I'm sorry, I'm at fault. I understand 237 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,839 Speaker 1: the gravity of what has happened, I empathize. In short, 238 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 1: it's signaling that the blushers uh. In short, it signals 239 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: the blushers adherence to societal norms and acknowledges failure, communicates 240 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: appeasement and a nonverbal apology. Um, which which I think 241 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 1: matches up with a lot of a lot of our 242 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: experiences of shame, you know. Yeah. And I'm just curious 243 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: to know what sort of circumstances cause you to blush. Um. Well, 244 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: I was thinking about this earlier when you're talking about 245 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: like positive comments making one blush, Like I I do 246 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: feel like I experienced that if someone says something nice 247 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: about me in the presence of others, I get that 248 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: kind of uncomfortable blush, even though I'm receiving positive feedback. 249 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: It's kind of an embarrassment thing. I mean, it's not shame, right, 250 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: you know, it's not a shame. It must be that 251 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: attention thing, you know, it's um and uh yeah. And 252 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: in terms of like straight up shameful blushing, I so 253 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: I do blush about Let's say, if I forget to 254 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: you know, do something, you know, around the house, and 255 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, well, that's you know, like I said, 256 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: I forgot to clean the cat box or something, you know, 257 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: Like I might blush when I admit that, because it's like, ah, 258 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: not only did I not clean out the cat box, 259 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: I'm the type of person who forgets to the cat 260 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: box that's pooping it, um, you know, which is a 261 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: little bit of guilt and shame with that. Yeah, because 262 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: I'm I'm a pretty you know, because I guess it 263 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: kind of ties into, you know, how I view myself 264 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: and how I want other people to view me. So 265 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: I view myself as the type of person who wouldn't 266 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: let the cat poop build up your cat box cleaner exactly. 267 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: So if I if I deviate from that, like that's 268 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: like a fault in me. So, yeah, I've thought of 269 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: it before, and it for me oddly, it's when someone 270 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: makes some sort of sexual innuendo. I'm not necessarily embarrassed 271 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: at that. In fact, I'm usually the first person to 272 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: do that. It makes some sort of you know, sexual 273 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: innuendo joke. But if someone else says it, then for 274 00:15:54,640 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: whatever reason, I yeah, where you're just you're it's almost 275 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: like you're you're embarrassed for other people or you're well, 276 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: I mean even if it's like you're privy to the joke, 277 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: so you were in the culture of the joke, you're 278 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: you're among your fellow primates, and this is the subject 279 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: matter on the table, you know. Yeah, we actually got 280 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: a great email about this. It's called second hand embarrassment. Yeah, 281 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: I mean that ties in directly to what we're talking 282 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: about here, But embarrassment it's again its own category. It 283 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: doesn't have these long ranging effects that shame does. Before 284 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: we get into the deterrent side of shame or potential uses, 285 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: I do want to point out a couple of quick 286 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: stats here. One study found that of those polls that 287 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: they never blushed alone, which is interesting and it kind 288 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: of backs up the idea that it's about communicating and 289 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: being observed. But then you already mentioned like blushing, um 290 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: while writing engage in a solitary act. So yeah, we 291 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: were talking about this earlier that sometimes from the effort 292 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: of writing, especially from writing some piece of fiction, that 293 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: I come out USh cheeked and blushing. Yeah. And oh 294 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: and I also want to point out that there was 295 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: a two thousand nine study that found that people who 296 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: blush due to some violation are seeing less negatively eve 297 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: they blush, So uh, the idea of being that that 298 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: again we're potentially communicating authentic shame over something. And then 299 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,479 Speaker 1: when when we receive that signal from another of our 300 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: fellow primates, we say, oh, well, they're really sorry, they 301 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: really feel bad about it, So I'm going to be 302 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: less hard on them because there's the blush. Well, and 303 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,719 Speaker 1: that's an aspect of vulnerability to write. All right, So 304 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: if you want to learn more about blushing, do check 305 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: out Josh Clark's article why do people Blush? It's really excellent. Um. Now, 306 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: when we talk about shame versus guilt as a deterrent um, 307 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: we've got some interesting findings here, especially if you start 308 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: to think about your mom, what her her modus operandi 309 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: was growing up to she shamey or did she guilt you? 310 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: Because because one is far more effective in the other. Um. 311 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: And this sort of power of shaming, by the way, 312 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: goes back way way far right, because um, there there 313 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: is a power to it. It dates back at least 314 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,880 Speaker 1: to the stockades of colonial times here in the United States. 315 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 1: But the question then becomes does public shaming work as 316 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: a deterrent to crimes or even unwanted behaviors and George 317 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: Mason psychologist June technique. She wanted to answer those questions. 318 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: She suspected that shame would be less effective than guilt 319 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: in deterring for future crime. So think of the example 320 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: of guilt equals I did something bad, right in Shane 321 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: equals I am bad. Okay. Now, what she did is 322 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: she recruited more than four hundred inmates at a local jail, 323 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: all recently incarcerated on felony charges. She administered a standard 324 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: assessment to identify which inmates were prone to guilt feeling 325 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 1: feelings or shame feelings, and it also identified those who 326 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 1: most who were most likely to blame others for their problems, 327 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 1: because that's key here too. Then the inmates served their 328 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 1: time and they were released. About a year after the release, 329 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 1: Tagni and her colleagues followed up to see how they 330 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: were doing, and they used several different measurements, including self 331 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: reports and public reports, to come up with a recidivism 332 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 1: score for each inmate. And by recidivism, what we mean 333 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 1: here is a relapse into criminal behavior that might land 334 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: them in jail again. Yeah, So her prediction was that 335 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 1: shame from intimates would be more likely to return to 336 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: crime after they were released, and her initial findings seemed 337 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: to support this. Shame seemed to cause former inmates to 338 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: blame others for their misfortune, leading to to to repeat crimes, 339 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: but those who felt guilty were less likely to repeat 340 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: their crimes a year out. So again placed directly into 341 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,159 Speaker 1: do you do you feel like you're actually guilty or 342 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: is it something deeper? Right? But but then further study 343 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: revealed that this is a little more complicated than that. 344 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 1: UH found that shame led to is m only when 345 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: the humiliated inmates blamed others, but when shamed individuals accepted 346 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: the blame themselves, they didn't suffer an increase in recidivism. 347 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: So in some cases we can see shame might hold 348 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: you back. Other times it could give you a certain 349 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: amount of strength to give you a springboard to make 350 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: some changes. UM. One of the key ways here UH 351 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: that the technique points out is that shame can make 352 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: you withdrawal from others, and it kind of depends on 353 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: who you're withdrawing from whether that's a good move or bad. 354 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: So if you means you're when withdrawing from enablers, from 355 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: other criminals, from addicts, well then that might be a 356 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: step in the right direction. That kind of with withdrawing, 357 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: withdrawing from people would give be like a springboard for change. 358 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 1: On the other hand, if you're withdrawing from positive influences, 359 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: if you're withdrawing from family in people that you feel 360 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 1: ashamed in the presence of, or you're withdrawing from other 361 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: important UH structures in your life. Say say church is important, 362 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: you end up withdrawing from church because you're ashamed of 363 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,640 Speaker 1: what you did. If you're withdrawing from you know, other 364 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: other resources that could help you out, then that's that's 365 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 1: bad news. You just go into that that shame spiral 366 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: away from the UH, the the latter that could pull 367 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 1: you up. That's right, And particularly if you're withdrawing because 368 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: you blame that person or that institution or that thing. 369 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: And we see parallels with the study and alcoholism. Dr 370 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: Tony Webb, who holds a PhD in trans disciplinary research 371 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 1: at the University of West Sydney, has has looked into 372 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: this and he says that internally generated shame turns into 373 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 1: shaming something done to us that violates our sense of 374 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: the fair go and not unnaturally we tend to react 375 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: against this by attacking others, um blaming as as we discussed, 376 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: hiding as we also discussed and hiding from ourselves, he says. 377 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: And so this plays into a kind of social and 378 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: ecological apathy, as he says, and a wide range of 379 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: addictive behaviors have a common root, and what he says 380 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 1: is unacknowledged shame. So let's look at a study here 381 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 1: that looks a bit more into It's from two thousand 382 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: and thirteen from the Clinical Psychological Science by Jessica Tracy 383 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: and Daniel Randall's of the University of British Columbia, and 384 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: they looked at drinking and health outcomes and a sample 385 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: of newly sober recovering alcoholics. They used measures that assessed 386 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: both self reported shame and shame related behaviors. And these 387 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 1: this becomes really important by the way the self reported 388 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: versus the behavior. So the behavior might be a narrow 389 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: chest and slumping shoulders, and the researchers took that information 390 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: and they hypothesized that participants would be less able to 391 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: voluntarily control their behavioral displays of shame and that would 392 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,719 Speaker 1: be their tell. So in the first session, participants were 393 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: asked to describe the last time that they drank and 394 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: they felt badly about it, and the responses were videotaped 395 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 1: by the researchers. In a second session about four months later, 396 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: participants were asked to report their drinking behaviors and they 397 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 1: completed questionnaires about their physical and mental health at both 398 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 1: of these sessions. Now Here are the findings people who 399 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: displayed more shame related behavior were likely to be in 400 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 1: were more likely to be in poor physical health at 401 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: the time of their first session. But more surprising, though, 402 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,160 Speaker 1: was the finding that behavioral displays of shame predicted whether 403 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: participants would relapse after the first session, not the self 404 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: reported but the way they were behaving with their their 405 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: body postures and Tracy and Randall says how much shame 406 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: participants displayed strongly predicted not only whether they relapsed, but 407 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: how bad that relapse was. That is, how many drinks 408 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: they had if they did relapse. So they could take 409 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: that information, they could take this, this outward expression of 410 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: shame through the body and predict whether or not that 411 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 1: person would would fall into say that recidivism, so to speak, 412 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: of alcoholism, that relapse. It's interesting this uh reminds me 413 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 1: a little bit of the implicit association tests that we 414 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: discussed in our last episode, you know about weeding out 415 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: are self reported UM ideas about self and others versus 416 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: what we're feeling and and what and what we're thinking 417 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: below cognition, right. I mean this requires you to identify 418 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: your feelings is either shame or guilt in order to 419 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: begin to understand how to change the behavior, right, because 420 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: if you're unaware of it, you have an implicit bias, 421 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: right that's working under the cover about how how this 422 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: shame is manifesting in yourself. Um. And so that's that 423 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: would be one of the things that that you would 424 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: have to confront if you wanted to change yourself, because 425 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: if you think I am this, I am a bad 426 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,360 Speaker 1: person as opposed to I have exhibited some bad behaviors. Well, 427 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: that's the difference between change and just staying mired in 428 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: that mindset. Indeed, and this this all stacks up really 429 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: well with UH what I was reading from University of 430 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: Alberta researcher Jessica van Villet UH two thousand nine study 431 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: where she looked at positive shame and problematic shame, which 432 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: you know we've been discussing here on the positive level, 433 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,640 Speaker 1: of shame can be that springboard. It can it can 434 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 1: force us to make changes that that that help us 435 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: to protect our relationships and preserve that fabric of society. 436 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: Again getting into that idea that that we feel shame 437 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 1: and because we've fallen out of step with societal norms. Uh. 438 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 1: But then there's the problematic shame where you know, the 439 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: shame spy or withdrawing from others, withdrawing from the very 440 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 1: things you need to pull yourself out of the pit. Right. 441 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: And her research shows that people who feel debilitated by 442 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 1: shame tend to again internalize and over personalized that since 443 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: the situation and uh, and they seem to feel like 444 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 1: they cannot change things, they cannot pull things around. Uh. 445 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,400 Speaker 1: So she has a few suggestions here that I think 446 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: are are very valid and really stack up well we've 447 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: been discussing here. She says, step back from the problem 448 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: and view the picture in a different light. She says, 449 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 1: possibly identify external factors that contribute to your actions or situation, 450 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: break the hopelessness, and realize that there are steps you 451 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: can take to make things right again and make connections 452 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: to people, uh, individuals, to humanity itself or even even 453 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: in some cases depending on your particular worldview to a 454 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: higher power or a more noble idea, you know. And 455 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: I think this is particularly important in this the sort 456 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: of environment that we are in historically with the Internet culture, 457 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: there is a lot of shaming, right, and so we're 458 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: absorbing the on subconscious levels. And so I think that 459 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: you even have to uh cultivate an awareness and that 460 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 1: aspect too. It's not just your own behaviors or how 461 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: you operate in the world, but the kind of stuff 462 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: that you are exposing yourself to you or even participating 463 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: in virtually online. And I'm talking about dog shaming here. Oh, 464 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: you're talking about the someone's dog has done something bad 465 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: like knock over a plant, and then they essentially show 466 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: them ashamed with a sign that says I knocked over 467 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: my master's potted plant. Yes, there are a lot of 468 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,239 Speaker 1: dog shaming sites, including dog shaming dot com. And just 469 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: as you said, it could be like a dog looking 470 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: sort of, you know, like it's been reproached and it's 471 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: got those baleful eyes, and it might say I tried 472 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 1: to make a sandwich, but I don't know how, and 473 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: then it's got a bunch of pieces of bread stacked 474 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: up on its head because they because they've as we've 475 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 1: discussed in u in some of our past episodes about 476 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: dog and human relationships, they take on that submissive pose 477 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: which we often project shame and apology and always feels 478 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: sad over what he did, when in reality, it's it's submission. 479 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: It is And um, if if you want to know 480 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: more about that, that episode is really interesting. UM. I 481 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 1: think it's called Your Dog Doesn't Love You, but it 482 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: talks about the coevolution of humans and dogs and how 483 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: dogs eye tracking evolved with humans because it was so 484 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: important for them to try to clue into what we 485 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 1: wanted from them and what we were thinking so that 486 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: they could get the scraps of food from us. Yeah, 487 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: of course it's interesting to think back on that and 488 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 1: then look at this episode where we dismantle a human 489 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 1: display of emotion and uh and when you when you 490 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: start really taking it apart, like is it that different 491 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: from the from this display of obedience and submission on 492 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: the part of the dog that we classify as as 493 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: being who I'm sorry, And then we're talking about blood 494 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: vessels welling up in the face and it's basically saying, oh, 495 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: I stepped out of line. It's it's in a way, 496 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: it's kind of its own uh signal of submission. The 497 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: difference here, though, is the dog is not saying I 498 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: am a bad dog. I mean the dogs like, all right, 499 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: what do I need to do to get to that treat? 500 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: What sort of Oh you want the bailful eyes? Okay, 501 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: here you go, there you go. Yeah, the human human 502 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: complexity changes everything. All right? Well, hey, you want to 503 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: check out dog shaming, You want to check out that 504 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: episode on whether your dog Loves You? You can find 505 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: all of that on the landing page for this episode. 506 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: And that is it's Stuffable your mind dot com. That's 507 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: the mother ship. That's where we find all of our videos, 508 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: podcast episodes, blog post, you name it. And if you 509 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: have feedback on this on guilt shame, embarrassment um, you 510 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,239 Speaker 1: can send us an email at blow the Mind at 511 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: house to forks dot com for more on this and 512 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot 513 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: com