1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 2: I'm Stephen Monchelli. I'm a journalist in Dallas and an 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 2: occasional Cool Zone Media contributor. You may have seen in 4 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 2: the news lately that there's a major measles outbreak centered 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 2: in Texas. It started back in January of this year 6 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 2: in the West Texas County of Gaines, and it has 7 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 2: since spread to at least two other states. As of 8 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: this recording, Texas has reported over seven hundred cases associated 9 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 2: with the measles outbreak. New Mexico has reported over sixty, 10 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 2: Oklahoma has reported over fifteen, and there are other states 11 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 2: that have also reported measles cases that may or may 12 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 2: not be linked to this outbreak. It's the first major 13 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 2: measles outbreak in a decade, and it's already taken three lives, 14 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: two unvaccinated children, the first of such deaths in more 15 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 2: than twenty years, and one adult. All were unvaccinated at 16 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 2: the res of the outbreak are low vaccination rates, which 17 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 2: took a sharp downturn after the twenty twenty COVID nineteen 18 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 2: pandemic as dubious vaccine skepticism and opposition to vaccines, both 19 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 2: mandatory and in general, became a partisan political issue. It 20 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 2: is no coincidence that the low vaccination rate in Gaines County, 21 00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 2: where the outbreak first began, corresponds with deep red Republican politics. 22 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 2: Measles is a sort of canary in the coal mine. 23 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 2: It's one of the most highly communicable diseases and consequently 24 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 2: is among the first to appear in communities with low 25 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 2: vaccination rates. An outbreak in California about a decade ago 26 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 2: was eventually stemmed when the state legislature banned vaccine exemptions 27 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 2: for school aged children. This action spurred response and gave 28 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,520 Speaker 2: a shot in the arm to a nascon coalition of 29 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 2: vaccine skeptics and outright anti vaccination groups that had previously 30 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 2: struggled to get political traction. By twenty twenty, such groups 31 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 2: had gained meaningful amounts of infolruents in red states like 32 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 2: Texas and Oklahoma. Then came COVID nineteen, and suddenly a 33 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 2: disparate set of groups big pharma skeptics, wellness influencers, health 34 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: freedom libertarians, and conservative religious groups, to name a few, 35 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 2: coalesced in a formidable political force under the banner of 36 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 2: the Republican Party, whose politicization of the COVID nineteen pandemics 37 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 2: served as a sort of ideological cement to unite them. 38 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 2: The logical conclusion of this development is represented in the 39 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 2: avatar of RFK Junior, a long time vaccine misinformation peddler 40 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 2: who now sits atop the highest federal government health bureaucracy, 41 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 2: a perch from which he continues to spread debunked anti 42 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 2: vaccination tropes like a proverbial fox in the henhouse. RFK 43 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 2: Junior has repeatedly downplayed the importance of vaccines in the 44 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 2: battle against measles, and has refused to distance himself from 45 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 2: long debunked anti vaccination arguments such as that vaccines cause autism. 46 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 2: His influence and the influence of the vaccine Skins movement, 47 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: of which he is a central figure, can be seen 48 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: in responses from local West Texans who have opted for 49 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 2: junk palliatives like vitamin A or measles exposure parties over vaccination. 50 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 2: The viral spread of anti vax ideology threatens to pitch 51 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 2: us back one hundred years in time, when thousands of 52 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 2: children and adults either died or disabled every year from 53 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:26,839 Speaker 2: diseases like measles, polio, and smallpox. Research into the side 54 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 2: effects of vaccines has repeatedly shown that the risks associated 55 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 2: with vaccination are far lower than the risks of an infection, 56 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 2: particularly for vulnerable populations like young children, the elderly, and 57 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 2: people with suppressed immune systems. Some people genuinely cannot get vaccines, 58 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 2: such as certain new board babies, and thus are at 59 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 2: higher risk should an outbreak of a deadly disease occur. 60 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 2: When ninety five percent of a population is vaccinated in 61 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 2: an area, diseases can be entirely removed from circulation, and 62 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 2: that's indeed what happened to smallpox and for a time, measles. 63 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: But the downward trend in vaccination rates, supercharged by the 64 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 2: marriage of right wing politics with anti vaccination beliefs of 65 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 2: all stripes, means that our collective immunity is at risk. 66 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,719 Speaker 2: This week, I will be your host on It Could 67 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 2: Happen Here As I take you through a five episode 68 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 2: mini series called Anti vax America, three interviews with public 69 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 2: health officials, vaccine scientists, medical professionals, and historians. I will 70 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 2: explore the ongoing measles outbreak and how it serves as 71 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 2: a microcosm for where we are, how we got here, 72 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 2: and where we could go if anti vaxx beliefs continue 73 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,160 Speaker 2: to become mainstream in the United States. In the first episode, 74 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 2: I will cover the origin of the measles outbreak in Texas, 75 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 2: it's deadly consequences, the varying responses from public health officials 76 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 2: at different levels of government, and the consequence of misinformation 77 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 2: being spread at the national and local level. In the 78 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 2: second episode, I will on earth the deep roots of 79 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 2: anti vaccination belief in the United States, how it's changed 80 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: over time, and why it's basically become synonymous with right 81 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 2: wing politics in our current day. In the third episode, 82 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 2: I will explore the overlap between anti vaxx beliefs and 83 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 2: the belief in supernatural healing and miracles that is common 84 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 2: among a particular movement of conservative Christianity that has tied 85 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 2: itself closely to President Donald Trump. In the fourth episode, 86 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 2: I will untangle the twisted history of eugenics and how 87 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 2: it's influenced public health and vaccination attitudes, as well as 88 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 2: the historical echo of eugenics that can be found in 89 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: RFK Juniors Make America Healthy Again agenda. And in the 90 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: last episode, I'll consider what could happen in the United States, 91 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 2: What could happen here if vaccination rates continue to plummet 92 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 2: and vaccine skeptics like RFK Junior continue to dictate public 93 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 2: health policy. But before we get there, a quick ad break. 94 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 2: Gaines County, the epicenter of the West Texas outbreak, is 95 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: a largely rural place home to oil field workers, farmers, ranchers, 96 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 2: and several Mennonite communities. Politically, it's very conservative. It sits 97 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 2: on the Texas New Mexico border, about three hundred and 98 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 2: sixty miles west of Dallas, where I live. The largest 99 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 2: city in the region, Lubbock, is two counties over. Lubbock 100 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 2: is home to two hundred and sixty thousand plus people 101 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 2: and has the largest hospitals in the area. It was 102 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 2: at one of those hospitals that the first child died 103 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 2: of measles in over two decades. As the number of 104 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 2: cases in the region began to increase, Lubbock became a 105 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 2: central hub for both treatment and the dissemination of public 106 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 2: health information. Weeks before RFK Junior or Texas Governor Abbot 107 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,119 Speaker 2: spoke on the issue, local pub health officials and medical 108 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 2: institutions were on the front lines in Lubbock. 109 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 3: So my name's Catherine Wells, and I am the director 110 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 3: for Lubbock Public Health and Lubbock Public Health is the 111 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 3: city and county health department in both the city and 112 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 3: county of Lubbock, Texas. I've been in this role for 113 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 3: about ten years now. We're about seventy five miles from 114 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 3: Gaines County, which is where kind of the epicenter of 115 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 3: this measles outbreak is. 116 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 2: Let's maybe go back all the way to the day 117 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: that you know it sort of began. The first case 118 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: came out in January, So can you take us a 119 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 2: little back to that day and what was going on 120 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 2: in your world and you know, what were you doing, 121 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: and how did you hear about this first case and 122 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 2: what your reaction was. 123 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 3: And we'll actually need to take a couple of days 124 00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 3: kind of before the announcement. I first found out out 125 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 3: the possibility of measles that Friday, the twenty eighth. I 126 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 3: have all my dates messed up, but it's that Friday 127 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 3: before the first case was announced. One of my staff 128 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 3: came and told me that we had two children that 129 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 3: had been admitted to our local hospital. So we have 130 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 3: the children's hospital for this whole region. People come, you know, 131 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 3: over two hundred miles to come to the children's hospital 132 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 3: in Luppock, and she mentioned that there was two children. 133 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 3: The physician thought it might be measles that they were 134 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 3: going to send for testing. So in public health, measles 135 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 3: is so rare that even sending somebody for testing is 136 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 3: required to be reported to public health. That physician thought 137 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 3: it was measles. We kind of waited over the weekend, 138 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 3: and then that Monday and Tuesday, I started hearing some 139 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 3: rumors that there were measles cases down on the ground 140 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 3: in Gaines County, which was interesting. People were calling and saying, 141 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 3: you know, I heard this rumor, have you heard this? 142 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 3: And I'm like nope. And then all of a sudden, 143 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 3: those two cases or those two cases both tested positive. 144 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 3: And then when we went and started talking to the 145 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 3: families and learning more, we realized that those rumors about 146 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 3: measles circulating and Gaines County was true, and there were 147 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 3: reports of you know, multiple individuals that had been sick 148 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 3: and measles had probably been there or at least a 149 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 3: little bit of time. And then when we got the 150 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 3: confirmed cases, that really just put everything into really you know, 151 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 3: moving very quickly trying to really figure out what was 152 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 3: going on for measles. 153 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 2: So at that time, it was it was flu season, 154 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 2: and so were you all was your office preparing, you know, 155 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 2: or working on anything else at that time when you 156 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 2: had first heard about this first testing and you know, 157 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 2: started hearing about these rumors. 158 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, we had increases in flu, we had 159 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 3: increases in COVID. We actually had some birds that had 160 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 3: died that had tested positive with the new Avian flu. 161 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 3: You know, just that's a busy time of the year 162 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 3: for public health with lots of different reports coming in, 163 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 3: lots of multiple reports of pertussis, and it's not unusual 164 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 3: that we have a physician wanting to test for measles 165 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 3: ruling out I mean, it happens a couple of times 166 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 3: a year, but in my entire career, every time that happened, 167 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 3: it had always been negative. So I was kind of 168 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 3: thinking that it was one of those cases, especially that 169 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 3: Friday afternoon, like, oh, this is just a doctor, you know, 170 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 3: you know, just wanting to rule something out. You know, 171 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 3: it's probably flu or something else going on with those children. 172 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 2: And so when you had gotten that confirmation, it was 173 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 2: verified that those cases had indeed been measles. I mean, 174 00:10:57,640 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: what was going through your mind at that time. 175 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 3: I mean that was like, you know, people have always 176 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 3: talked about we're kind of on the edge of seeing 177 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 3: more measles outbreaks in the United States, and it was 178 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 3: really kind of a no, no crab moment of Wow, 179 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 3: this is in our backyard, is our department you know, 180 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 3: ready to take this on? And then also reaching out 181 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 3: to Gaines County, which has a much smaller health department, 182 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 3: and being like, what can we help you with? Do 183 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 3: you guys know what you need next? You know, they 184 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 3: don't have a communications person, so it was like my 185 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 3: staff writing the press release for Gaines County to send 186 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 3: out to make the notifications about the first measles cases. 187 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 3: So it was just really what can we do to 188 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 3: help them immediately and figure out what the next steps 189 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 3: would be with that. 190 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 2: So since January, cases have been on the rise, and 191 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 2: so we're in a different place now than just two cases. 192 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 2: Can you just tell us a little bit about where 193 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 2: things are now in Lubbock and how medical forties have 194 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 2: responded to the outbreak. 195 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 3: So initially, you know, all of the cases were in 196 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 3: Gaines County. The only exposures we were seeing outside of 197 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 3: Gaines County was when somebody was seeking medical care and 198 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 3: was sitting in like say, a waiting room at a 199 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 3: physician's office, and then they were exposing other individuals. But 200 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 3: after a couple of weeks, we started seeing spread outside 201 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 3: of Gaines County, so we were seeing more and more 202 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 3: cases in those surrounding counties, and then we started getting 203 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 3: cases in Lubbock, that's seventy five miles away. Over the 204 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 3: last three weeks, we've really seen the cases in Lubbock increase. 205 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 3: You know, we originally just had a handful. Now we're 206 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 3: up to forty one or forty two, and that number 207 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 3: will be updated again tomorrow. So just seeing more and 208 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 3: more spread of measles, and the concern is that public 209 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 3: Health can't necessarily trace those back to a specific case. 210 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 3: So people that have got out to the store or 211 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 3: gone to a public place have now contracted measles. 212 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 2: So tell me a little bit more about what efforts 213 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 2: have taken place and what sort of initiatives have been 214 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 2: put into place as measles has spread. You know, what 215 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 2: does that look like from love at Public Health or 216 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 2: any of your partners. 217 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, so ours is really the first one was getting 218 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 3: testing set up Originally when this started, all of our 219 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 3: testing samples had to go to Austin, which is about 220 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 3: a five and a half hour drive, So working with 221 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 3: the state Health Department to get testing capability up here 222 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 3: in Lubbock so we could quickly identify people. The next 223 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 3: one is really about education, providing information to the physicians' 224 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 3: offices the hospitals about measles because we hadn't seen it 225 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 3: in twenty one years here. So just think about how 226 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 3: many physicians have been trained over the last twenty one 227 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 3: years never saw a measles case in their residency. So 228 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 3: getting them to feel comfortable about what the signs and 229 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 3: symptoms are, and really making sure that we were notifying 230 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 3: or that they were notifying public health and getting people 231 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 3: tested and then doing that contact tracing, and then the 232 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 3: other big ones vaccinations. You know, there's two ways to 233 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 3: prevent measles. You know, one is the vaccination that's going 234 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 3: to protect you, and then the other one is avoiding 235 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 3: being exposed to measles. So really getting more and more 236 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 3: people vaccinated with pop up clinics and then running a 237 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 3: measles vaccination clinic here at our Health department. 238 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 2: Can you tell me a little bit about what the 239 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 2: response in particular too. You know, the vaccination clinics being 240 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 2: set up has been you know, I have a lot 241 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 2: of people shown up for that. Has it drawn a 242 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 2: lot of you know, new people that are trying to 243 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 2: get their children vaccinated. 244 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 3: It's a mix. I feel that our vaccination clinic here 245 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 3: at our health department's been pretty successful in that we're 246 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 3: getting people every day coming in to get vaccinated, and 247 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 3: we're seeing people that were hesitant prior, that had chosen 248 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 3: not to vaccinate their children kind of with the idea, well, 249 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 3: I've never seen measles or moms or rebella, so why 250 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 3: give my child a vaccine if that doesn't exist. Now 251 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 3: that measles are circulating in the community, they're changing that 252 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 3: thought process and are coming forward to get vaccinated. Some 253 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 3: of the rural clinics have been a lot harder to 254 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 3: get people to come in. I mean, they've stood up 255 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 3: clinics and only a handful of people have come in 256 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 3: to that clinic that day. So real mixed response. But 257 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 3: I think is public health, it's important for us to 258 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 3: be offering the MMR vaccine with as few barriers as possible. 259 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 2: So you were in this position during the COVID pandemic 260 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 2: and when that began and all throughout it. So can 261 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 2: you tell me a little bit what it was like 262 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: working in your role as a public health official ads 263 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 2: that time, and then also maybe whether things are any 264 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 2: different today, has anything changed? 265 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 3: I mean, I think our community did fairly well throughout COVID, 266 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 3: given you know, everything that went on. I've always believed 267 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 3: in just being honest and talking about what I do 268 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 3: know what I don't know, what the science is showing, 269 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 3: and I think that helped our community get vaccinated and 270 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 3: take some of the precautions during COVID. And I'm kind 271 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 3: of taking that same you know, thought process and that 272 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 3: same you know, leadership style as we're dealing with measles 273 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 3: out here. You know, with measles, it's a challenge. I 274 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 3: think people are paying attention to it because it's really 275 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 3: impacting children, whereas we didn't see, you know, that same 276 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 3: impact with COVID. It's frustrating because we know what the 277 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 3: solution is. When COVID showed up, you know, nobody in 278 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 3: public health and the medical community, you know, knew exactly 279 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 3: what COVID is. With measles, we know what we're dealing 280 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 3: with and We also have a known solution, which is 281 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 3: a vaccine, so it is frustrating that people are choosing 282 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 3: not to vaccinate. Still, the other challenges is during COVID, 283 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 3: all of our other work for public health got put 284 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 3: on hold. Here with measles, our health Department's still expected 285 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 3: to do all of our other jobs and respond to 286 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 3: a measle's outbreak, which is really stressful on staff. 287 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:31,479 Speaker 2: I can completely understand that in terms of some stressful things. 288 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 2: I understand that just from doing some background research and 289 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 2: reading up that your office or maybe even you yourself, 290 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 2: were subject to some threats or some sort of pretty 291 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 2: extreme reactions during COVID. Is that the case and is 292 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 2: that still happening? 293 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 3: Thankfully, it's not happening. During COVID, we did have some 294 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 3: very strong opinions and some threats, mostly around when the 295 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,479 Speaker 3: children's vaccine was released and why we were promoting that. 296 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 3: We have not seen that with measles, which is very good. 297 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 3: I don't want any of my staff to be threatened. 298 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 3: I mean, you always got these random posters on people 299 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 3: that post on social media, but they're not even individuals 300 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 3: from our community. 301 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 2: Got it okay? Well, I'm glad to hear that genuinely 302 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 2: that that is a positive change. I suppose that is 303 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 2: something that's a good difference. 304 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 3: And also good support from our pediatricians and the medical 305 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 3: community has been very good and outspoken about the importance 306 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 3: of getting vaccinated, which has helped us. 307 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 2: So where do you see things going from here? I mean, 308 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 2: do you think we'll continue to see more cases? I 309 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 2: know that they're on the rise, but do you think 310 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 2: that will continue? Or do you have other concerns about 311 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 2: potentially other outbreaks of diseases that had been kind of 312 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 2: pushed out of circulation coming back. 313 00:18:55,680 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, all of the above. I think in Gains count 314 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 3: in particular, we don't have a good understanding of where 315 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 3: we are in the epidemic, like how many vulnerable individuals 316 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 3: in that community are still remaining, so we don't know 317 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 3: how long that initial epicenter outbreaks going to last. We're 318 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 3: also seeing, you know, as measles gets into a community, 319 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 3: it is so infectious that it is going to find 320 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 3: all of those little pockets of people that are unvaccinated. 321 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 3: And that's what we're seeing here in Lubbott County is 322 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 3: you know, measles taking hold and finding little pockets and 323 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 3: public health trying to go put out you know, little fires, 324 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 3: trying to make sure that we've figured out who's been 325 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 3: exposed and who's at risk. 326 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 2: You described, you know, how this is an incredibly infectious 327 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 2: disease and it is you know, finding all the pockets 328 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 2: people that are vulnerable or not vaccinated. And so I'm 329 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 2: wondering if you can, you know, if they're any examples 330 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 2: or specifics that you could share about how the outbreak 331 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,959 Speaker 2: is impacting communities or particular communities. Has it resulted in 332 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 2: disruptions in school for children, Has it caused any other 333 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 2: sort of notable breakdowns or sort of pauses in day 334 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 2: to day regular activity in Lubbic. 335 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 3: You know, those breakdowns have been more minor that a child, 336 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 3: say that's unvaccinated's been exposed and that's requiring that child 337 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 3: to sit out from school. So there is that, you know, 338 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 3: element that they're missing those important days of education. Our 339 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 3: bigger impacts here have been around daycares. We had a 340 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 3: large outbreak, or large in the sense that we've had 341 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 3: now eight children or eight individuals associated with one daycare 342 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 3: all test positive with measles. So that's meant that you know, 343 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 3: children have had to be sent home from daycare, which 344 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 3: then impacts parents' ability to work and also impacts you know, 345 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 3: you know, daycare along with you know, the number of 346 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 3: students there children having to go home that have been 347 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 3: exposed working a lot to get additional doses of vaccine 348 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 3: into a daycare. So it both impacts the public health system, 349 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 3: our healthcare system because kids need health, but then it 350 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 3: also impacts parents because if your child's not in daycare, 351 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 3: a parent can't go to work. Those have been the 352 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 3: bigger disruptions and then disruptions in our healthcare system that 353 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 3: we're now having to do a lot of screen Like 354 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 3: you call to make an appointment for the doctor, and 355 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 3: it's kind of like COVID, have you been exposed to measles? 356 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 3: Are you vaccinated? They're asking all those screening questions before 357 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 3: people enter our healthcare facilities. 358 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 2: In terms of sort of interactions with the state and 359 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 2: their response to this, can you tell me a little 360 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 2: bit more about how the State of Texas has responded 361 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 2: and partnered with local authorities. 362 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 3: So we have a good working relationship with the State 363 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 3: of Texas. Texas has to do everything differently, so we 364 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 3: kind of have this decentralized system where the state and 365 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 3: locals both kind of have their own authority, very independent 366 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 3: at the county level, but the state is offered support 367 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 3: to us. They've helped me bring in temp nurses to 368 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 3: be able to assist with vaccine clinics. They're paying for 369 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 3: some additional staff d answer phones, so we're getting that 370 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 3: kind of support. And then I meet with the state, 371 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 3: you know, regularly about what's going on in Lubbock, how 372 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 3: Lubbock fits in the context of the rest of this outbreak, 373 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,919 Speaker 3: and you know, how we're going to work together to 374 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 3: move forward. We always thought of measles as an airplane 375 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 3: ride away, so we would see, you know, somebody travel 376 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 3: to a foreign country, come back to the United States 377 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 3: and maybe pass measles to a couple of people in 378 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 3: their household. This outbreak is not that we're seeing transmission 379 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 3: within a community, and it's making measles more of a 380 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 3: car ride away. And that's concerning because we have individuals 381 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 3: that are susceptible to measles, either through to young to 382 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 3: be vaccinated, not vaccinated, or some other immune compromised state. 383 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 3: So just concerning that we're going to see more outbreaks 384 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 3: spreading out into the United States, especially as we're moving 385 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 3: into spring and summer where people are traveling and driving 386 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 3: through communities that we could just see kind of explode everywhere, 387 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 3: which is my biggest fear. Yeah. 388 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 389 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 2: I mean, given that vaccinations and to some degree, public 390 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 2: health in general has kind of become a politicized issue, 391 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 2: I can only imagine that it can make it quite 392 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 2: difficult for you to convey these messages to people for 393 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 2: them to understand them. 394 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm talking. I mean I've talked to many 395 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 3: health department directors across the country, and you know, one 396 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 3: of the values of local public health is that you know, 397 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 3: all of us local health department directors and those staff 398 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 3: were coming from these individuals, communities and our goals to 399 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 3: keep our community safe. And it really doesn't matter what's 400 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 3: happening at the federal level. It's about your community, your connections, 401 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 3: watching out for this diseases, and then convincing your community 402 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 3: to do the right thing. And luckily we have you know, 403 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 3: twenty five hundred health departments across the US, and that 404 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 3: is their goals, and hopefully people will continue to trust 405 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 3: their local directors. 406 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 2: That is a great point. And I'm wondering if is 407 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 2: there anything else that you can speak to on how 408 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 2: the distrust that is there can potentially be bridged, or 409 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 2: you know, the specific things that y'all have done to 410 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 2: try to sort of rebuild that trust or establish that trust. 411 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 3: I mean with us locally, it's making sure that we're 412 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 3: talking to our local news and our local reporters and 413 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 3: answering the phone call when a concerned parent calls, and 414 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 3: going through the information we know, and utilizing our local 415 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 3: physicians to tell them the story, because I think if 416 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 3: you can still see it at the local level, you know, 417 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 3: people can really understand that this is a risk and 418 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 3: really make that right choice to get the vaccine or 419 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 3: if they've been exposed, to stay home. 420 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 2: We'll hear more from Catherine in just a moment at first, 421 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 2: as we are obligated to do. Here's some ads. So 422 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 2: I do understand there's quite a bit of skepticism towards vaccination, 423 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 2: and that's certainly going to be a subject that we're 424 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 2: exploring in this podcast. And at least by the numbers, 425 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 2: it shows that in places like West Texas and particularly 426 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 2: more rural areas even more than a place like Lobbick, 427 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 2: that there's pretty low vaccination rates. Several counties are below 428 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 2: the I guess, was it ninety five percent threshold that 429 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 2: really helps bring diesels out of circulation And so, you know, 430 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 2: I'm kind of curious. You've been there for over a decade. 431 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 2: Do you have a sense sort of what the key 432 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 2: drivers of vaccine hesitancy are and why so many West 433 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 2: Texans choose not to get their children vaccinated. You already mentioned, 434 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 2: you know, the fact that it's it hasn't been seen 435 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 2: for so long, so sort of out of sight, out 436 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 2: of mind maybe, But are there other other drivers that 437 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 2: come to mind for you? 438 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I don't think. You know, West Texas 439 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 3: is unique from many other communities in the United States. 440 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 3: You know, people are very much influenced by social media 441 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 3: and some of our media outlets, and there's a lot 442 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 3: of you know, scare tactics or misinformation around vaccines and 443 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 3: you know, anything from autism that's been debunked so many 444 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 3: times about vaccines causing autism, other misinformation about what's in 445 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 3: vaccines and the risks of vaccines. I mean, every medical intervention, 446 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 3: every medication has some type you know, of risk. But 447 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 3: vaccines have been long studied, and especially when you're looking 448 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 3: at the MMR vaccine we've been using this for fifty 449 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 3: years and that's why we don't have measles cases or 450 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 3: hadn't had measles cases. But people have really bought into 451 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 3: a lot of that information out there, and it's really 452 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 3: hard to combat that. I've gone and read the stories 453 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 3: and I can see how people feel miss and pick 454 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 3: up on this, but I just don't know from public 455 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,200 Speaker 3: health standpoint how we combat it. 456 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 2: Right right, It's a very difficult problem, the challenge that 457 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 2: has a long history and has a lot of different factors. 458 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 3: And things are so complex. It's not a it's not 459 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 3: a one for one. It's just it's been a challenge. 460 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 3: But I think out here I always felt like we 461 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 3: hadn't been impacted as much from some of these anti 462 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,959 Speaker 3: vaccine movements. I think post COVID people you know, have 463 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 3: a mistrust in government or wanting to listen to mandates 464 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,399 Speaker 3: or recommendations or whatever we call them. We're just seeing 465 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 3: that more and more, and that hesitancy you know, to 466 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 3: come through and trust both government trust the medical system 467 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 3: are all concerns and that all contributes to these lower 468 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:32,719 Speaker 3: vaccination rates. 469 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 2: In a media environment rife with misinformation about vaccines and 470 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 2: public health, Catherine's perspective is refreshing and a bit hardening. 471 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 2: Local public health officials like her have done great work 472 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 2: to raise the alarm around viral outbreaks, but they're up 473 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 2: against a problem that is much bigger than what they 474 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 2: can address on their own, and that's the widespread belief 475 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 2: in bogus theories, be they scientific or religious, that undercut 476 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 2: the proven science around vaccines. Much of this misinformation comes 477 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 2: from places far from West Texas, like the anti vaccination 478 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 2: group Children's Health Defense, which RFK Junior previously led. It 479 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,280 Speaker 2: is widely recognized as a major source of online vaccine misinformation, 480 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 2: including the debunk allegation that vaccines cause autism. After the 481 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 2: death of a six year old child of measles in March, 482 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 2: Children's Health Defense released a video interview with the parents, 483 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 2: who said they still would not take the vaccine and 484 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 2: wouldn't recommend it to other parents. Here's a clip from 485 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 2: that interview in which the Mennonite parents speak in their 486 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 2: Lowland German dialect. 487 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 4: So when you see the fairmong gring in the quest, 488 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 4: which is what we once stop, We want to get 489 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 4: the truth that what do you say to the parents 490 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 4: that are rushing out Hannah Kang to get the EMMA 491 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 4: for a six months or failure beca think that that 492 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 4: child is gonna die of measles from this appartment to 493 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 4: your daughter, and it would sign is only sous so bad. 494 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 4: Like there's doctors with the whometown. 495 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 5: She says, they would still say don't do the shots. 496 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 5: There's doctors that can help with measles. They're not as 497 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 5: bad as they're making it out to be. 498 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, and also the measles. 499 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 6: Are good for the body for the people because the 500 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 6: measles are then give the what is it. 501 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 4: What can and synem contraction but infection, yeah, did you 502 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 4: get infection out? 503 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 5: And he's immune system. Yeah, they're trying to say that 504 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 5: the measles actually help build the immune system in the 505 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 5: long run. If they get the measles, now you don't 506 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 5: achieve in the long run, and were in the salation 507 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 5: like okay, So in the long run, he said, they 508 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 5: wouldn't get cancer as easily, and like it pipes off 509 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 5: a lot of a lot of stuff, the immunity that 510 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 5: they get from the from the measles. 511 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 2: But some of what public officials like Catherine have been 512 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 2: trying to combat is coming from other medical professionals much 513 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 2: closer to home, such as doctor Ben Edwards, who appeared 514 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 2: in a Children's Health Defense video and has promoted anti 515 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 2: vaccination misinformation on his own podcasts, including the recommendation to 516 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 2: take vitamin A to treat measles, an approach that has 517 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 2: resulted in several cases of vitamin A toxicity among children 518 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 2: diagnosed with measles in West Texas. During their interview with 519 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 2: Children's Health Defense, the Mennonite parents of the first child 520 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 2: to die of measles actually said they were working with 521 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: doctor Ben Edwards for their treatment. One video that went 522 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 2: viral online showed Edwards visibly infected with measles at the time, 523 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 2: treating patients with measles and inhabiting spaces where individuals who 524 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,800 Speaker 2: were not infected with measles were present, and this elicited 525 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 2: widespread condemnation from the medical community, quite unsurprisingly. Nevertheless, it 526 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 2: demonstrates the sort of attitude of certain medical professionals in 527 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 2: the area who have used their platforms and their credentials 528 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 2: to sow doubt about the importance of the vaccine, making 529 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 2: matters worse. Rfka Junior praised doctor Edwards as a quote 530 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 2: extraordinary healer just one week after Edwards was seen in 531 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 2: that video treating patients while himself infected with measles. While 532 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 2: anti vaccination beliefs have certainly gone viral in the aftermath 533 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 2: of the COVID pandemic, they are by no means new. 534 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 2: Practitioners like Edwards and advocacy groups like Children's Health Defense 535 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 2: have been peddling their snake oil for decades, But the 536 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 2: roots of anti vaccination belief around even deeper than that. 537 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 2: In the next episode of Anti vaxx America, I'll do 538 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 2: a deep dive into the history of anti vaccination beliefs 539 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 2: to understand the origins of them, how they've changed over time, 540 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 2: and why they've become embraced in mainstream right wing politics, 541 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 2: which is a change from the sort of bipartisan and 542 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 2: even sometimes progressive nature of some anti vaccination skepticism. But 543 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 2: until then, thanks for listening. I'm Stephen Manschllei for cool 544 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 2: Zone Media and this is Anti vaxx America. 545 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 546 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 547 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 548 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can 549 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: now find sources for it could happen here, listed directly 550 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.