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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.

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Speaker 1: Showed us an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me, trust me, trust Me. I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 4: I've never lived. To you, I never had a live.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that one person has all the answers?

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Speaker 2: Don't Welcome to trust Me the podcast about colts and

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Speaker 2: extreme belief and manipulation from two gi Jans who've actually

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Speaker 2: experienced it. I am low La Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: Today is part two of our interview with Daniella Mestenek,

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Speaker 2: young survivor of the Children of God and former member

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Speaker 2: of the US military. In the second half of our

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Speaker 2: interview today, we're going to discuss how she ended up

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Speaker 2: joining the military after high school, why she liked basic

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Speaker 2: training because she knew she was particularly suited for it

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Speaker 2: given her upper and what it was like being a

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Speaker 2: rare woman in the hyper masculine military culture.

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Speaker 1: She'll tell us about parallels she began to see between

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Speaker 1: the military and the cult she grew up in, and

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Speaker 1: why those parallels are important to talk about, not just

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Speaker 1: to be hyperbolic, but because the need for transition counseling

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Speaker 1: after your identity is broken down and melded into a

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Speaker 1: highly controlled group, identity are actually the same.

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Speaker 2: There we have it. This is such a good interview.

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Speaker 2: I like this second half quite a bit, super interesting culture.

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Speaker 2: It's a world I don't know about before we get

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Speaker 2: into it. Megan, what's your cul des thing or your

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Speaker 2: thoughts on this episode.

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Speaker 5: I think I'm gonna go with my thoughts on this episode.

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to throw out really quickly, my brother

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Speaker 1: in law's in the Air Force. I'm from the Midwest.

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Speaker 2: I was born on an army base. You were born

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Speaker 2: on an army base.

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Speaker 1: So, as we always talk about on this podcast, nuance exists.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, this is a woman's perspective and experience that

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Speaker 1: a lot of other women have also echoed. So really

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Speaker 1: great book and really interesting interview.

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Speaker 2: That's right, And yeah, I have so much family in

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Speaker 2: the military. I would absolutely never want to cartoonify that

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Speaker 2: experience or make it seem like it's always going to

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Speaker 2: be negative. So many people have wonderful experiences with the military.

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Speaker 2: At the same time, it is an organization designed to

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Speaker 2: break you down so that you can be a killing

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Speaker 2: machine for the state. So it's worth talking about both.

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Speaker 2: And that's what we'll do in this episode.

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Speaker 5: That is what we'll do.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why that made me laugh so hard

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Speaker 1: with us literally horrible. We are both dealing with some

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Speaker 1: heavy shit, but it's so good to be together and

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Speaker 1: to be with you guys. And for some reason, both

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Speaker 1: of our therapists have commented that when we get.

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Speaker 5: Sad, we laugh.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, what about you, what's the cultiest thing that happened

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Speaker 1: to you this week?

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Speaker 2: I just was looking up cult news, as one does,

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Speaker 2: and I learned about a Filipino doomsday cult with thirty

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Speaker 2: five hundred members. So according to this al Jazeer website,

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Speaker 2: it is an obscure religious movement believed to be promoting

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Speaker 2: an imminent end of the world ideology, which has been

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Speaker 2: accused of engaging in sexual violence and forced marriage of

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Speaker 2: its own members, including children. Of course, it extortes money

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Speaker 2: from its members. Of course they're underage brides. Of course

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Speaker 2: there's sexual violence, and of course they're armed, and it's

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Speaker 2: kind of all coming to light. People have been testifying

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Speaker 2: about the leader of the group, who of course is

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Speaker 2: referred to as the Messiah and is the reincarnation of Jesus.

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Speaker 5: Oh, there it is.

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Speaker 2: It seems like maybe it's been funded by drugs stuff. Anyway. Oh,

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Speaker 2: one detail that I actually think is super interesting and

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Speaker 2: I feel like is probably just going to keep happening,

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Speaker 2: is that it says a series of earthquakes that hit

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Speaker 2: the province in early twenty nineteen became the impetus for

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Speaker 2: the leader to lure followers and be saved from the

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Speaker 2: imminent end of the world. Of course, this is going

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Speaker 2: to keep happening with all of the climate disasters that

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Speaker 2: will continue to happen, So that's sad. So all of

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Speaker 2: these people move to the mountains to kind of be

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Speaker 2: there for the end of the world, and now people

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Speaker 2: are starting to wake up and the police are like,

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Speaker 2: we need to investigate this group further and hopefully it

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Speaker 2: doesn't become like the Philippines jonestown, because that would be terrible.

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Speaker 5: Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: Please, No, does the group have a name that we

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Speaker 1: know of yet or is it still eluding us.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna butcher this, I'm sure. But it's called the

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Speaker 2: Sokoro bay Yanihan Services, which is on an island in Mindan.

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Speaker 2: Now so these are all places. Oh no, now it's

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Speaker 2: known as Omega de Salonara Salonia. I don't know how

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Speaker 2: to say.

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Speaker 1: Things noble effort on all these pronunciations.

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Speaker 2: I tried anyway that is messed up, and it is.

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Speaker 2: It really speaks to how worldwide and not confined to

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Speaker 2: one group, area, type of person this shit is. It

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Speaker 2: is everywhere.

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Speaker 1: I so hope that they are able to get everyone

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Speaker 1: out in time and that it doesn't explode into some

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Speaker 1: of the things that we've seen before. And I will

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Speaker 1: just echo what I've said on here before, like there

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Speaker 1: is a part of me that can so easily go

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Speaker 1: doomsday and is like, damn, I wish I had access

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Speaker 1: to a ranch with just a ton of like water

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Speaker 1: and broth saved up, and oh for sure, like every

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Speaker 1: time a new disaster happens, I'm like, oh damn, Like

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Speaker 1: I totally get how people could be experiencing a level

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Speaker 1: of anxiety from these earthquakes and shit that they got

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Speaker 1: into this group.

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Speaker 2: Yeah same, I mean, Mike, depending on the day, what

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Speaker 2: the anxiety is fixating on in terms of what's going

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Speaker 2: on in the world. My climate anxiety is very high.

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Speaker 2: You know, they have the states that are supposed to

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Speaker 2: be safe zones or whatever. Like I absolutely could see, yeah,

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Speaker 2: houling up with a bunch of my friends in Michigan

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Speaker 2: and things getting out of control.

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Speaker 3: I was gonna say, Michigan.

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Speaker 5: It has to be Michigan.

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Speaker 1: I like read that when I was ten, and it's

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Speaker 1: just living in the back of my brain, Michigan.

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Speaker 2: So incidentally, that's where I'm from, and that's where a

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Speaker 2: lot of my family live, who know how to hunt,

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Speaker 2: who know how to fish.

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Speaker 5: I'm a guessing military family.

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Speaker 2: Who are many of them in the military. Yes, so

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Speaker 2: they will save us, yeah, in the apocalypse and it

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Speaker 2: all comes full circle.

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Speaker 1: Wow, Well, should we let Daniella tell us about her

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Speaker 1: experience in the military.

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Speaker 2: We absolutely should.

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Speaker 4: The army that has pages and pages and pages and

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Speaker 4: pages of regulations on how you are allowed to look,

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Speaker 4: also has a prohibition on looking too fatish, really that

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Speaker 4: anyone that does. I literally have been told to take

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Speaker 4: my hair down out of an authorized hairstyle because it

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Speaker 4: looked too good in uniform, and so we find in

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Speaker 4: group behavior that regulations or rules that are arbitrarily applied

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Speaker 4: are often used for the oppression of groups without power,

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Speaker 4: demographics without power.

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Speaker 2: Well, I feel like that's a great segue to start

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Speaker 2: talking about how you joined the army.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, all right. This was the hardest chapter of

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Speaker 4: the book for me to write. This is chapter seventeen.

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Speaker 4: It's called Bring Me to Life. It's a very breezy

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Speaker 4: chapter about being in college and discovering myself. And also

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Speaker 4: I fell into a toxic relationship, which is entirely unsurprising,

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Speaker 4: and in fact, cult scholars we will call abusive relationships

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Speaker 4: a one to one cult because it's that exact same pattern.

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Speaker 4: So I fall into this abusive relationship with a man

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Speaker 4: that we find out at the end of the book

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Speaker 4: is definitely a bad guy, and I sort of follow

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Speaker 4: him into the army. We got married, he joined the army,

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Speaker 4: and I felt like, Okay, don't have a choice. My

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Speaker 4: only choice right now is to be the trailing spouse,

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Speaker 4: stay at home wife, maybe an English teacher, or to

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Speaker 4: join the army myself, you know. And I've fought too

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Speaker 4: hard to just let it be about someone else's life.

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Speaker 4: So I'm going to go join the military. Now, when

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Speaker 4: I look back at it, I see that I joined

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Speaker 4: the army for all the same reasons that my grandfather

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Speaker 4: joined a cult in the sixties. I spent six years

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Speaker 4: out in the world just so alone, you know, outside

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Speaker 4: of you. I fell in with this chess team in

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Speaker 4: college because we have the best chess team in the

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Speaker 4: world and they're all international, so I can fit in.

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Speaker 4: But importantly, like I can fit in because I don't

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Speaker 4: have to share stuff about myself because everyone's from somewhere else,

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Speaker 4: So I'm just Danny from Brazil. Parents are missionaries. Cool,

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Speaker 4: no questions, But really I was just really really lonely.

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Speaker 4: And you know, going from a cult to high school

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Speaker 4: to college, you're still in an organization, right Like there's

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Speaker 4: still someone who's looking out for you, who's telling you

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Speaker 4: what to do. There's a structure. If I hadn't joined

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Speaker 4: the military, I would have had a PhD by the

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Speaker 4: age of twenty five because I just didn't know how

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Speaker 4: to operate in the world. And joining the military, and

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Speaker 4: in fact, for neurodiverse people, joining the military can be

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Speaker 4: awesome because you've spent your whole life on the outside,

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Speaker 4: not knowing how to fit in socially, and you join

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Speaker 4: the military and they're like, here's what you're supposed to wear,

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Speaker 4: here's the exact rank structure of how you treat people,

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Speaker 4: and here's a little booklet on how exactly you're supposed

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Speaker 4: to act and speak.

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Speaker 1: Just before we move on, I was just thinking about

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Speaker 1: this yesterday. You know, after you graduate college, you're a freshman,

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Speaker 1: you're a sophomore, you're a junior, you're a senior at all,

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Speaker 1: and so you go to graduate school.

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Speaker 5: I did that whatever.

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Speaker 1: Or you can also become a mom, which I feel

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Speaker 1: like gives you the nine months of a pregnancy, and

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Speaker 1: then you have this stage and then that stage, and

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Speaker 1: then you're kind of put back into a track.

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Speaker 2: There's a path for your life, yeah.

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Speaker 1: And it has like certain steps and then you're put

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Speaker 1: back into the steps. So anyway, just an aside, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's so interesting that you yourself in this very again

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Speaker 1: high controlled group.

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Speaker 2: And I see the appeal of the structure of the military.

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Speaker 2: There are people I know that I wish I'd gone

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Speaker 2: to the military because they had no idea how to

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Speaker 2: structure their own lives and desperately need guidance and their

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Speaker 2: adults and there's no one to do that for them. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I have lots of family who were in the military,

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Speaker 2: and it was great for them. They loved it. But

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Speaker 2: you know, obviously there are still pieces of that that

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Speaker 2: are unhealthy, which you will tell us about. What were

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Speaker 2: your expectations going in? What did you you know?

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Speaker 4: Like, I knew it was a game. I'm just going

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Speaker 4: to go in. I'm going to play the game for

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Speaker 4: three years. I'm going to get these benefits, right, Like,

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Speaker 4: I knew I would make a good intelligence officer, And

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Speaker 4: in fact, I think growing up in a cult and

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Speaker 4: having to learn everything about the new world that I

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Speaker 4: live in made me a much better intelligence officer than

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Speaker 4: most Americans, not to mention growing up outside of America

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Speaker 4: and outside of American exceptionalism, right, you know, I think

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Speaker 4: I was able to see the versus humans, which then

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Speaker 4: let me see what they were trying to do in

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Speaker 4: ways that some of my colleagues could not. Like, I

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Speaker 4: wasn't scared about the military at all. I was like,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to be good at this, Like this is

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Speaker 4: a game I'm playing, Like I know what I'm doing.

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Speaker 4: I did not know what I was doing. I thought

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Speaker 4: I knew what I was signing out for.

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Speaker 2: Right, what was basic training like we see it in

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Speaker 2: the movies. I'm always like, is it that abusive?

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Speaker 4: I think basic training is kind of fun. You know,

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Speaker 4: in the army, we literally have a saying that all

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Speaker 4: you have to do to be successful is being the

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Speaker 4: right place, in the right time, in the right uniform

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Speaker 4: and don't stand out, or we say don't volunteer for anything,

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Speaker 4: which means don't stand out. So I think on the

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Speaker 4: one hand, the experience was like, good, I'm a soldier,

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Speaker 4: this is great. On the other hand, you stand out

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Speaker 4: as a woman, and so it's negative from the first day.

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Speaker 4: And so basic training, I mean it is really as

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Speaker 4: abusive as you see, but everyone's just accepted that at least.

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Speaker 2: You know what you're getting into.

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Speaker 4: I guess you knew it you sign up for one

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Speaker 4: of what I say is one of the biggest organizational

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Speaker 4: thoughts stopping cliches. But remember when I said earlier adults

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Speaker 4: buy into their own programming. Right, So you're in basic

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Speaker 4: training and every single person is like, what did I

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Speaker 4: just do to my life? And then you tell yourself

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Speaker 4: you signed up for this, right, So, like we thought,

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Speaker 4: stop ourselves every time there's something ridiculous. We're like, nope,

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Speaker 4: you signed up for this, go through it, right, And

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Speaker 4: we don't talk enough about what basic training is designed

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Speaker 4: to break you down, dehumanize you, and build you back

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Speaker 4: into something that's not quite a human. We now call

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Speaker 4: you civilians, and we are being programmed to conduct violence

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Speaker 4: on behalf of state, right right. And so even when

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Speaker 4: we look at the military trauma, we only look at war.

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Speaker 4: We don't look at, first of all, the rape culture

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Speaker 4: that is just so endemic. But we definitely don't look

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Speaker 4: at like being trained to kill people. You know, like

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Speaker 4: we march around going left foot, right foot, left foot, kill,

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Speaker 4: left foot, right foot. You know, I will kill, kill, kill, kill,

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Speaker 4: kill kill. Yeah, that's a cadence to help you keep

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Speaker 4: time in your marching.

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Speaker 2: How many other women were there?

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Speaker 4: I think when I joined the military was around eleven

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Speaker 4: to fifteen percent women, But that really really depends where

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Speaker 4: you are. So for example, I was in basic training

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Speaker 4: at Fort Jackson, which is where support personnel goes, so

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Speaker 4: there were quite probably out of one hundred and eighty,

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Speaker 4: we had forty women, so quite a few. Then I

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Speaker 4: went to officer school, we have a lot fewer, probably

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Speaker 4: about like ten percent women. Then I went to spy school,

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Speaker 4: which is almost fifty percent women military intelligence. It's heavily

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Speaker 4: heavily polled women. And then I got sent to Fort Campbell, Kentucky,

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Speaker 4: home of the one hundred and first Band of Brothers,

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Speaker 4: and you were probably women were probably and this is

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Speaker 4: still under the combat band, so women are probably less

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Speaker 4: than ten percent on the whole base. And then when

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Speaker 4: you deploy, you're now going into an environment that's probably

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Speaker 4: about five percent women.

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Speaker 5: Can you tell us a little bit more about the

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Speaker 5: combat ban?

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Speaker 4: Yes, so very important for me to say. Women have

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Speaker 4: been in active combat in every conflict since the Revolutionary War.

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Speaker 4: The military has just always liked to pretend that we

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Speaker 4: are not. So in nineteen ninety three, when George Bush

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Speaker 4: wanted to put women in helicopters for that war, he

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Speaker 4: changed hw Bush. Of course, he changed the whatever was

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Speaker 4: at the time, and like there was a band keeping

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Speaker 4: women out of anything considering fighting. Then they changed it

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Speaker 4: specifically to only include ground. And the way that they

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Speaker 4: wrote it was basically women cannot be in anything that

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Speaker 4: is front lines, which is super ridiculous because definitely, by

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Speaker 4: nineteen ninety three we were not involved in wars that

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Speaker 4: had frontlines anymore. So it just generally became like a

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Speaker 4: generic ban for women in being in You can be

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Speaker 4: an infantry, you can be in field artillery, which is

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Speaker 4: throwing big bombs and a few other things, which, of

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Speaker 4: course then results in when you go to join the army,

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Speaker 4: you have to get completely naked, get on a table,

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Speaker 4: and let a usually male doctor kind of look you

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Speaker 4: up the vagina to verify your gender and then slot

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Speaker 4: you in a second class citizen. Yeah, and somehow they

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Speaker 4: did not realize how taking a group of violently trained

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Speaker 4: men saying you're going to work next to women, but

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Speaker 4: they're not quite equal as you, and they didn't realize

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Speaker 4: how that would like worsen the rape culture so much

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Speaker 4: more So, I do like to say because I did

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Speaker 4: end up actually becoming one of the first women in

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Speaker 4: deliberate ground combat. So I like to say that by

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Speaker 4: putting women into combat, we actually made the military safer

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Speaker 4: for all women.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a time that you guys were out

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Speaker 1: on a mission and you were like, where's the kids?

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Speaker 5: You noticed that? Can you tell us a little bit

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Speaker 5: about that?

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Speaker 4: I mean, and this really goes to you know, the

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Speaker 4: whole argument was always you got to be a man

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Speaker 4: to do war the best. And so the question was

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Speaker 4: always are women capable of being men? We think no,

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Speaker 4: So we think women can't do something. And I like

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Speaker 4: to say, whenever a population truly can't do something, you

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Speaker 4: don't have to build laws to ban them from it.

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Speaker 4: They finally allow us to go into combat only because

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Speaker 4: we're fighting an insurgency in a Muslim country. So we

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Speaker 4: are trying to win the hearts and minds of the people,

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Speaker 4: and their rule is conservative Muslim culture. Your men cannot

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Speaker 4: touch our women, so we get brought in to be

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Speaker 4: like the token women. One of the situations I have

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Speaker 4: is we get to this village and there's a planned ambush,

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Speaker 4: and so the men are noticing, dude, things like the

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Speaker 4: sand looks funny, right. I would never have noticed that

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Speaker 4: in a million years, because I wasn't trained to notice that.

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Speaker 4: But I noticed that there are no women and children,

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Speaker 4: you know, like the reason I'm here is to talk

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Speaker 4: to the women and children. They are not here. You

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Speaker 4: put these together. This was an indicator that sure enough,

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Speaker 4: there was you know, a pretty big bomb in the

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Speaker 4: road ahead of us. And you know, one of the

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Speaker 4: interesting things of the story is a few chapters before,

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Speaker 4: we had an ambush on a male only team where

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Speaker 4: a lot of people lost their lives, and everyone kept saying, Danielle,

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Speaker 4: I'm so glad you weren't there that day. But even

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Speaker 4: once we put women in combat and we realize, oh,

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Speaker 4: when men and women are both trying to kill you,

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Speaker 4: it makes sense to have both men and women on

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Speaker 4: your team, we still don't look back and go, what

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Speaker 4: if there was a woman there that day too, and like,

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Speaker 4: what if she had noticed something that wouldn't have you know,

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Speaker 4: ended up in that situation. So definitely not saying we

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Speaker 4: control everything, but definitely showing you know, we bring It

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Speaker 4: doesn't matter that I can't maybe pull a three hundred

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Speaker 4: pound dude and all of his armor out of a firefight,

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Speaker 4: because I can fit through that tiny hole and open

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Speaker 4: for all of you to go through.

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Speaker 2: Have you seen Physical one hundred. It's a Korean athletic

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Speaker 2: competition show where they have these like huge, big burly men,

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Speaker 2: and then they also have women, and then they also

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Speaker 2: have runners, all these different types of people. It's so

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Speaker 2: interesting because before I watched that show, I was like, well,

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Speaker 2: obviously to be big and huge and strong is the

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Speaker 2: most advantageous thing physically. But watching that was the first

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Speaker 2: time as a total non athlete, was the first time

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, no, they can't run fast at all.

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Speaker 2: They are not flexible or agile, Like, there's so many

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Speaker 2: different things they can't do. There's not one kind of strength,

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Speaker 2: both physically and in other ways. Everybody has like different

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Speaker 2: things that they bring, and why would the military be

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Speaker 2: any exception.

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Speaker 1: And this might be a perfect place to offer that

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Speaker 1: Daniella is one of the best runners ever and she

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Speaker 1: didn't even know she was a runner until she got

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Speaker 1: to the military, Like you've been in magazines for running

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Speaker 1: at this point.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but also to say that, you know, this was

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Speaker 4: another one of those things that gets weaponized against us

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Speaker 4: in the culture. Right. There's the basically we get to

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Speaker 4: the infantry team and they're like, all right, you want

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Speaker 4: to be in the infantry, Like you're going to prove

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Speaker 4: yourself good enough to be on this team, right, which

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Speaker 4: none of the men have to do. And then they

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Speaker 4: find out I can run fast. So you know, what

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Speaker 4: we have is this scene where I'm basically in all

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Speaker 4: of my gear racing men on a like a fifteen

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Speaker 4: second sprint basically and just beating most of them, and

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Speaker 4: I say, you know, like it's great, It's a great

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Speaker 4: moment in the story. But what you don't see is

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Speaker 4: the next day when I go out with them on

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Speaker 4: a ten hour patrol and I'm broken up because I

390
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Speaker 4: had to prove my way onto the team. You know.

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Speaker 4: So it's like not only yes, are we good enough,

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Speaker 4: but when you make women have to jump higher and

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Speaker 4: swim faster and run faster than the standards you even

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Speaker 4: have for the men, and then you say we're not

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Speaker 4: as good as you.

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Speaker 2: Like, when did you start to notice parallels between the

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Speaker 2: military and your upbringing?

398
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Speaker 4: I mean definitely day one, right, that was my like, oh,

399
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Speaker 4: I just joined another cult, Like this is going to

400
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Speaker 4: be like I know how to get along with those, right,

401
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Speaker 4: Like in basic training when people were literally losing their

402
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Speaker 4: minds about how ridiculous it was, or like the lack

403
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Speaker 4: of privacy, right, it was just like a joke to me.

404
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Speaker 4: It was like I never went anywhere alone till I

405
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Speaker 4: was sixteen years old, Like I can do all of this,

406
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Speaker 4: the eating, the bad food, the being hungry, even the running. Right.

407
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Speaker 4: So Megan mentioned I was in a magazine. I was

408
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Speaker 4: running a marathon at the point I realized I was

409
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Speaker 4: going to win the marathon, Like I knew there would

410
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Speaker 4: be magazines and interviews, and I was like, it's just

411
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Speaker 4: funny that any of these people think that doing something

412
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Speaker 4: for three hours is hard, right, I spent ten hours

413
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Speaker 4: in that basement with a pedophile, Like three hours of running,

414
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Speaker 4: it's not.

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Speaker 1: Hard, and the children of God, the ten hours are

416
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Speaker 1: in the basement, but the pedophile, yeah right, yeah.

417
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Speaker 4: You know. So I would say that, like a lot

418
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Speaker 4: of the parallels for me was like, oh, I've done

419
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Speaker 4: this before, right, Like I've waded through the mud, running

420
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Speaker 4: from fellow soldiers, you know, all of that sort of parallels.

421
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Speaker 4: The big surprising parallel that I did not expect, that

422
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Speaker 4: I also noticed on my first day, but really started

423
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Speaker 4: to notice when I deployed, was that here I am

424
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Speaker 4: again sort of locked behind these big commune walls that

425
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Speaker 4: I can't leave, and all of the men surrounding me

426
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Speaker 4: are dangerous to me. And that was the surprising thing,

427
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Speaker 4: the thing that nobody talks about literally to this day,

428
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Speaker 4: Like I get reviews on Uncultured saying, does she expect

429
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Speaker 4: us to feel sorry for her? She knew what she

430
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Speaker 4: signed up for, And I just go WHOA. Is that

431
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Speaker 4: the way we talk about American soldiers that they're violent

432
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Speaker 4: to their colleagues?

433
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Speaker 2: Right, What were some of the ways that you kind

434
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Speaker 2: of saw that play out? I mean, was it jokes?

435
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Speaker 2: Were people getting physical?

436
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,199
Speaker 4: In my experience, in my personal experience, it's not like

437
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 4: this is part of the rules. But our drill sergeants

438
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 4: said to us on day one of basic training, women

439
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 4: in the army are either a bitch, a slut, or

440
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 4: a dike. And this is when being gay is a

441
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 4: career ender underdone. Ask don't tell you are being told

442
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,159
Speaker 4: if you are not just a bitch to everybody, like

443
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 4: your career will not go well. So like it comes

444
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,440
Speaker 4: through in little ways, it comes through in giant ways.

445
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 4: You know, my boss before we deploy hands me a

446
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 4: magazine article basically warning me that I will be assaulted

447
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 4: while we're deployed, and that it's basically now considered my

448
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 4: job to protect myself. And actually the most quoted line

449
00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 4: of uncultured is don't get yourself raped. Oh my god.

450
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 4: And it was in everything and it's just is just

451
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 4: in the culture. You know, these days, I say two

452
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 4: things I need them to change about their language. If

453
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 4: they're serious about ending rape culture is the outright dehumanizing language,

454
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 4: like when they call us females in the tone of

455
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 4: other slurs, but also the hidden dehumanizing language like calling

456
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 4: a bunch of male soldiers ladies or pussies when you

457
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 4: want to insult them. Right, it's very very common as well.

458
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 4: And it's just, you know, your number one job in

459
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 4: the military is to make them forget you're a woman

460
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 4: so that they'll let you do your job. But anything

461
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 4: you might do wrong in your job, it's because you're

462
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 4: a woman. Right. I don't feel like there's a moment

463
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 4: that that starts or becomes obvious. It's just you're just

464
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 4: in it all the time from day one.

465
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:03,000
Speaker 2: Right, Did you have friends? Did you find that community

466
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 2: sense there?

467
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,479
Speaker 4: I mean, I've found a very good friend who's kind

468
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 4: of still my lifelong best friend. In basic training. We

469
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 4: are Danielle and Danielle.

470
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 1: Danielle Woop woop. I'm obsessed with her. I want to

471
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 1: see her so badly, But.

472
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 4: I know I wouldn't say like I found a huge

473
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 4: sense of camaraderie. I think ultimately I ended up on

474
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 4: a really good team. Towards the end of my career,

475
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 4: but I still always had to be more careful about

476
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 4: the camaraderie than any of the men do. So, for example,

477
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 4: when I was captain senior intelligence officer, leading an entire

478
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 4: group of people and had seven male colleagues, I kept

479
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 4: a calendar on my desk of who I went to

480
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 4: lunch with so that I made sure I wasn't going

481
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 4: to lunch too many days in a row with the

482
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 4: same colleague, because then everyone would decide we were so

483
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 4: even together and that would end my but not his career.

484
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: I did want to mention one of your coworker superiors.

485
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 5: I'm not quite sure what you.

486
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: Refer to him too, but John Runkle, he was a

487
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 1: good leader, and in a book full of so many

488
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 1: bad leaders, what makes a good leader and what made

489
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:22,719
Speaker 1: him such a special person?

490
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 4: You know, I say a lot right now that one

491
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 4: of the ways we can tell toxic leaders is when

492
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 4: they're constantly demanding you prove your loyalty, and in my opinion,

493
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 4: good leaders should be proving their loyalty to you. You know. So,

494
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 4: John Runkle was the commander of the male unit that

495
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 4: I was sent to with five other women to be

496
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 4: the first women integrating and we walked up, expecting them

497
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 4: to hate us, because that's all we heard from everyone.

498
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 4: We don't need women here, blah blah blah. And we

499
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 4: were greeted by Lieutenant John Runkle not only with open arms,

500
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 4: but with it's about time, you know, like we needed you.

501
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 4: We are hamstrung out there and welcome to the team.

502
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 4: You know. Specifically said to all of the guys, they're

503
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 4: they're on the team now, and if you treat them

504
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 4: poorly like you will answer to me. The thing that

505
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 4: was so shocking to me is he was a lieutenant

506
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 4: and I was a lieutenant, and a lieutenant is not

507
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 4: a respected rank in the military. It's kind of like

508
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,360
Speaker 4: being brand new with an MBA at a company, right,

509
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 4: And he was respected and I'd never seen a lieutenant

510
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 4: be respected before. And I actually asked one of the sergeants.

511
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 4: I was like, what is it and this is where

512
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 4: the loyalty comes in, and he just said, man, like,

513
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 4: we all know that he would die for us, and

514
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:52,719
Speaker 4: you know, ultimately he did, unfortunately, But that was that

515
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 4: was my experience with him. He wanted to get to

516
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 4: know us, he wanted to like use each person on

517
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 4: the team where they fit best, and He was willing

518
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 4: to be in the thick of it and the worst

519
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 4: of it with his men. You know, when he eventually

520
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 4: was killed, he was on a rescue team going into

521
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 4: an ambush, you know, so they went in knowing they

522
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 4: would likely not come out.

523
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 2: Wow, did that give you hope for I guess humanity

524
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 2: men leadership groups like did that change your thinking at all?

525
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 4: Him? It did? And I say one of the reasons

526
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 4: I wrote Uncultured is to just show the men, the

527
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 4: good men like, what it's really like for us, so

528
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 4: that they can be on our sides. Ultimately, though, you know,

529
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 4: there's a lot of men that are good men in

530
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 4: the military, and yet there was recently another dead woman

531
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 4: at the same army base as the last dead woman soldier,

532
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 4: and I didn't hear any of those good men screaming

533
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 4: about the problem. So that's kind of how I feel

534
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 4: about men in the military.

535
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: I want to know how being an intelligence officer helped

536
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: you kind of deconstruct your time in the Children of God.

537
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: You put somewhere that somebody and army superior told you

538
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: to get the fuck over yourself, and it actually helped

539
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: you a little bit. Those were two things that stood

540
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 1: out to me, and I wanted to hear more about.

541
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, so to get the fuck over yourself, right was

542
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 4: and I would say, it's not as harsh as it sounds.

543
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 4: This is just the army and that's how we do

544
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 4: tough love. But I was giving myself permission to feel different.

545
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 4: I think I was isolating myself much more than I

546
00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 4: needed to as I was actively trying to decom It

547
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 4: would go something like, well, of course i'm depressed. I

548
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 4: grew up in a sex cult, right, Well, of course

549
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 4: nobody can understand me. I had a background that nobody

550
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 4: can understand. And finally, one guy, when I was feeling

551
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 4: starr for myself, literally looked at me and said, get

552
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 4: the fuck over yourself. You're not as different as you

553
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 4: think you are, which is something I now like to

554
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 4: turn around back on people and is to say your

555
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 4: group not as different as you think it is from

556
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 4: a cult or some of these toxic groups. And then

557
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:38,959
Speaker 4: I would also say the military helped me deconstruct because

558
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 4: it was another high control, high demand organization. Right, We've

559
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 4: talked about like all the parallels, but this one is

560
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 4: being sold as the good cult, right, And so it was,

561
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 4: you know, not in the way that I can say

562
00:30:54,960 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 4: it today. But it helped me understand a lot about

563
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 4: kind of cult think and group behavior and how that works.

564
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 4: And I also think that my growing up in a

565
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 4: cult helped me keep myself separate from the military. And

566
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 4: actually one of the things in transformational leadership research, which

567
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 4: transformational leadership is defined as when both the leader and

568
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 4: the follower grow become better through the leader follower relationship.

569
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 4: So two things in the research that are important. One

570
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 4: is that women are better at it. Too is that

571
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 4: it is those people who can be in an organization

572
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 4: long enough to wield real power, but who keep themselves

573
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 4: separate from the organization, they do not become the organization, right.

574
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 4: And sort of most people know veterans, right, and we

575
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 4: can all kind of think of like the person who

576
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 4: happens to be a veteran and the person who thinks

577
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 4: they were the army, right, and those are usually the

578
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 4: toxic bros. So I think, you know, especially being in

579
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 4: the army, but being the expert on the bad guy

580
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 4: on the other you know, it really helped me to

581
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 4: start to put into place some of these group dynamics

582
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 4: that we don't look at closely enough because we don't

583
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 4: want to ask these deep questions.

584
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: It's hard to not draw the parallel between the therapeutic

585
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: relationship between a therapist and a client. And if you

586
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 1: think that you're the like the therapist is the one

587
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: in control or the one who's smarter, it doesn't work

588
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: as well as just two people connecting.

589
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: So by the end of your service, were you disillusioned?

590
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 2: How did you feel about your experience?

591
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 4: I mean, I would say I got out of the

592
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 4: army after about six and a half years because of

593
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 4: what they call the glass cliff, which is just when

594
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 4: women or minorities opt out of said advancement because they're

595
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 4: just too tired of putting up with all of the microaggressions,

596
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 4: and like, I just wasn't going to be in that

597
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 4: climate of sexism every day. It's interesting because even when

598
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 4: I wrote the book, I wasn't I still wasn't as

599
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 4: disillusioned as I am now. And importantly, I only resigned

600
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 4: my commission after I wrote the book and it was

601
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 4: already coming out for publication, so you know, and after

602
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 4: eight years off of active duty, it was still really

603
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 4: hard to resign my commission. But I would definitely say

604
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:47,360
Speaker 4: that once you write a book about a toxic system,

605
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 4: you realize that if you had success in that system,

606
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 4: that it's also tainted, right, or you also benefited off

607
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 4: of a toxic system. So I definitely the same way

608
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 4: that when I started calling the children have got a cult,

609
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 4: I was no longer willing to say I grew up

610
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 4: as a missionary. I feel the same way about having

611
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 4: written probably the most popular book on why the Army

612
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 4: is problematic. I feel a lot less willing to be like, oh, yes,

613
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 4: I'm a proud veteran. You know, just before this, I

614
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 4: got back from an appointment at the VA Hospital, and

615
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 4: every single time I'm there around other male veterans, I

616
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,879
Speaker 4: am thinking about sexual assault. So I, in many ways, yes,

617
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 4: am disillusioned with the military.

618
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 2: And you don't have to answer this outright if you

619
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 2: don't want to, but were you sexually assaulted?

620
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 4: I was, Yes, it is in the book, and I

621
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 4: was sexually assaulted in a way that was essentially created

622
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 4: by the dynamic of the group because they put these

623
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,399
Speaker 4: rules in place and were deployed to control people's sexuality

624
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 4: that men and women can't be alone together. And so

625
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 4: what happens is when you get assaulted, it wouldn't have

626
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 4: mattered that I got assaulted. My career would have been

627
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 4: ended because I was breaking the rules being alone with somebody. Wow.

628
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 4: So I was not able to report it, I was

629
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 4: not able to get help for it. And it only

630
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 4: occurred to me when I was writing the book a

631
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 4: decade later that he knew that too.

632
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 2: Wow. Oh, I'm so sorry. But I'm so glad that

633
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 2: you are speaking about your experiences and talking about these dynamics,

634
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 2: because I think it's extremely important. I mean, do you

635
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: think that since you left the culture has improved at all?

636
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 2: In the military, I did.

637
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 4: I could have pointed to specific regulations that changed since

638
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 4: my time. For example, now they have a law that

639
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 4: Congress forced them to adopt called safe to Report Laws,

640
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 4: which means if somebody reports an assault, they cannot be

641
00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 4: punished for a lesser crime. However, so viral tiktoks on

642
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 4: rape culture have completely disabused me of the notion that

643
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 4: it has gotten any better, which is also what I've

644
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 4: heard from every generation of woman veteran since writing the

645
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 4: book I've had, and not only American women veterans, but

646
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,760
Speaker 4: like every generation of English speaking women veterans has reached

647
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 4: out to me and said, I thought it got better

648
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 4: since my time.

649
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,399
Speaker 1: Do any of the men reach out to you and say, yeah,

650
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 1: this is a problem, how do I help they do?

651
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 4: Yes, I've fortunately had a lot of good men reach out,

652
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 4: and really that's kind of my goal. My goal is

653
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 4: to radicalize the good men. So for example, you know,

654
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 4: it took me seven years with my husband, but he

655
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 4: finally got down with smashing the patriarchy. And you know,

656
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 4: when somebody says a sexist joke in front of me,

657
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 4: like say this is a veteran audience or a military audience,

658
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 4: I can get on my soapbox for twenty minute and

659
00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 4: all that's going to happen is that man is not

660
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,280
Speaker 4: going to say that joke in front of me again. Right,

661
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 4: But when my six foot two, white, blonde, blue eyed

662
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 4: helicopter pilot Special Forces retired husband looks at another guy

663
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 4: who makes a sexist joke and goes, come on, dude,

664
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 4: we're better than that, Like that dude never makes.

665
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 2: That joke again, I know it's so important.

666
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 4: It really is. Unfortunately, right, it's like we have to

667
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 4: convince the good men to change the system. And one

668
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,240
Speaker 4: of the things I have realized is that the men

669
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 4: that make it to the top, they are either the

670
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 4: predators or they're like they can't see it. So an

671
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 4: example of this is the Army is to not let

672
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 4: women wear ponytails. You had to have a perfect bun,

673
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 4: including when you're running for speed and including when you're shooting,

674
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 4: which is impossible because you have to lay down in

675
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,800
Speaker 4: the prone with a helmet that doesn't have a bun hole, right,

676
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,280
Speaker 4: and so your bun pushes your helmet over your eyes,

677
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 4: so you can't shoots in women being separated by predators

678
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 4: who can then do anything they want. And you have

679
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 4: to do these two things to keep your job. So

680
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 4: when I started talking about this, my husband looks me

681
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 4: in the eyes and goes, you have to wear a

682
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 4: bun in a helmet. Impossible, can't be done. And I

683
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 4: just looked at him and I'm like, he spent twenty

684
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 4: years in the Army, he always worked with women, and

685
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 4: he for sure has been in charge of women at

686
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 4: the shooting range, and he never realized that this was

687
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:37,839
Speaker 4: a problem. Wow, and I certainly never realized that this

688
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 4: was an avenue for predators. Right.

689
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 2: To clarify, this is not the husband that was toxic

690
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 2: from before. This is your correct current husband, who is

691
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 2: a non.

692
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 4: Toxic yes, yeah, who was non toxic. But one of

693
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 4: the things that we will say about our two careers

694
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 4: is that the military was built for you to be

695
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 4: exactly Tom Young. Every demographic you are away from that

696
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 4: six foot two, white, blonde, blue egged guy with the

697
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 4: jaw that can cut steal, your career is harder, and

698
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 4: so part of what you know I wanted to show

699
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 4: people in the book was that systems are always traumatic

700
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 4: on people that they weren't designed.

701
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,439
Speaker 5: For or designed by.

702
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 1: And even like you trying on the vest, the bulletproof

703
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: vest and it doesn't fit because you're a woman and

704
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 1: you have yeah.

705
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, And this is a big one. And this one,

706
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 4: I always say it goes to if you ask the

707
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,240
Speaker 4: wrong question, you get the wrong answer. So they're asking

708
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 4: the question does this plate stop bullets? Absolutely right, And

709
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 4: so everyone just assumes this is gender neutral until they

710
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 4: give it to a woman and they're giving you an instruction,

711
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 4: and the instruction is basically, this laptop sized plate has

712
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 4: to fit so tight against your stomach that it's no

713
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 4: further than a half inch away, because if it's further

714
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 4: than that, the concussion can still kill you. And so

715
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 4: there's not a woman on earth who can put a

716
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 4: laptop size thing in front of their chest and still

717
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 4: get it withinhafitance right, vital organs right. So we literally

718
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 4: and when I brought this up, what I was told

719
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 4: was don't worry, you won't be in combat anyways. And

720
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 4: I was in combat not only with no training, but

721
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 4: with a vest that wouldn't necessarily keep me alive in

722
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 4: a direct firefight.

723
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 2: Wow.

724
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 4: And this was actually one of those things that was

725
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 4: very interesting. I will get accused of playing games with

726
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 4: words sometimes when I talk about my career, because I

727
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 4: was one of the first women in deliberate ground combat. However,

728
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:57,479
Speaker 4: that word changed everything, because until that happened, the army

729
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 4: could always pretend that when women were killed in war,

730
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 4: it was the combat was incidental. Right. But as soon

731
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 4: as you are deliberately putting untrained, unarmored soldiers into a conflict,

732
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 4: military leaders are going to start having a big issue

733
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,240
Speaker 4: with this. And so this is directly then what opens

734
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 4: up ranger school and all the other forms of training

735
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 4: for the women. In some ways, of course, it's a

736
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 4: bit tongue in cheek to call it occult. My actual

737
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 4: argument is that when a unit goes away to training

738
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 4: or deployment, they are going to have a cultic experience.

739
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 4: And I think that as soon as we realize that

740
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 4: we learned so much about soldier issues like suicide, like rape, culture,

741
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 4: like transition, and the military uses transition to be getting

742
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 4: out of the service. But I don't just mean getting

743
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 4: out of the service. I mean how insane is it

744
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 4: to put people into a year long cultic experience and

745
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 4: then one day pull them out and just say okay, yeah, no,

746
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 4: of course it turns out poorly. So you know, for

747
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 4: those that are listening, like I compare the military to

748
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 4: a cult, not because I'm trying to say it's evil,

749
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 4: but because I'm trying to say, we know how this goes,

750
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 4: and we can catch a lot of the toxicity when

751
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 4: we look at the danger. And I think this is

752
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 4: true for all organizations, Like you can learn a lot

753
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 4: about your organization by asking yourself, is this a little culty?

754
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 4: And then like actually looking at different touch points where

755
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 4: group behavior can get toxic.

756
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 1: She talks about etiquettes, get your bangers out of your mouth.

757
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 3: She talks about where to find a deal. You know,

758
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 3: if you sell me something on Instagram, I buy it.

759
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 2: Whoever markets to me does a fabulous job.

760
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:53,719
Speaker 3: She talks about the economy.

761
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: We used to joke that'll be the thing to send

762
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 2: them to therapy.

763
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:57,800
Speaker 5: Okay, we're creating jobs.

764
00:42:57,840 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 4: Can we look at it that way?

765
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 3: She talks about parents.

766
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: These kids want to come home, they don't want to leave,

767
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: they don't want to drive, they want to stay.

768
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 4: In the womb.

769
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 3: Let's talk with Heather Debreu every Thursday on podcast one

770
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 3: or wherever you get your podcasts.

771
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 2: One of the big issues that we see so much

772
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 2: of the time is that when you do get out

773
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 2: of a cultic experience or an abusive relationship, that transition period,

774
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 2: like you were saying, is the wild West. People don't

775
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: have an identity, they don't know what to do with

776
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,399
Speaker 2: their lives. They're incredibly vulnerable to some kind of new

777
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 2: abusive person or group and they the mission yes, and

778
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 2: there's no support. I mean, now, you know, obviously you

779
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 2: have Yanya Lalich, you have different advocates so you can

780
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 2: talk to in terms of the cult piece of it.

781
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 2: But there really still isn't enough of a structure a

782
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 2: system to support people who are coming out of their

783
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 2: religion or whatever it may be, and the same should

784
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 2: be true of the military that there is support.

785
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 4: And that's exactly true. And the only place we have

786
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 4: this is really in prisons, and I call exit therapy.

787
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 4: And what's interesting, so first week of prison and the

788
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 4: first week of the military is called reception. It's where

789
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 4: you were being dehumanized, made into a piece of the machine.

790
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 4: And when you meete a veteran and you meet a prisoner,

791
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 4: same first question every time, how long were you in for?

792
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 4: And then we judge your level of institutionalization Danielle six

793
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 4: and a half years, Oh, not so bad? Top twenty years?

794
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 4: Oh man, you are institutionalized, right, And so it's even

795
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 4: without putting like a good or a bad on it,

796
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 4: it's just like when you have been in a total

797
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 4: institution that's what the military is called, or a cult,

798
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 4: or a prison, or a mental hospital or a monastery,

799
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 4: serial total institutions, like you can't just walk out into

800
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 4: the open world that has no structure, no set community,

801
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 4: no set mission without it being just ampletely overwhelming experience.

802
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,320
Speaker 4: And this is exactly why people join cults and why

803
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 4: cults pop up during times of social turmoil, is because

804
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 4: it's too confusing and it actually feels really nice to

805
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 4: have someone tell you exactly what to wear and what

806
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 4: to do.

807
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 5: Well.

808
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 1: You said at the beginning that one of the closest

809
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 1: experiences to death is leaving one of these high control groups.

810
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: Can you say a little bit more about that and

811
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 1: how we are then supposed to go through with it?

812
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 4: I mean, this really comes down to exit costs. And

813
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 4: when you say, you know, if you ask any group

814
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 4: if it's a cult, they will say, of course not.

815
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 4: You're free to leave any time. And I always think

816
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 4: that's funny because I didn't ask you if it was

817
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 4: a prison. I asked you if it was a cult.

818
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 4: But the thing is you're not free to leave, right

819
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 4: They're reminding you of the dichotomy it's my way or

820
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,879
Speaker 4: the highway. And with cults we have the things called

821
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 4: exit costs. Exit costs don't necessarily mean money. Sometimes they do,

822
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 4: because getting out and restarting your life can be in

823
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 4: credit expensive, but it's usually referring to the shunning that's

824
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:09,800
Speaker 4: going to occur, the loss of community. Sometimes there's actual

825
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 4: threats of death because cults really rely on magical thinking.

826
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 4: So whether it's if you always wear this underwear, you

827
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 4: won't be burned in a car crash, or if you

828
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 4: always do this prayer, you won't immediately die. There's a

829
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 4: lot of threat of actual death when you leave a

830
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 4: cult in retaliation, but mostly I think it's just losing

831
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 4: everything you knew. Like literally, when I was fifteen and

832
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 4: a half, I one day to the next lost everything

833
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 4: I knew, every person, every idea, everything that made you

834
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 4: feel comfortable. I mean, people will put up with a

835
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 4: lot to not have to go out into the unknown.

836
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:55,240
Speaker 2: My mom's PhD research, well, it's on media humiliation and trauma,

837
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 2: but one of the things that she talks about in

838
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 2: her dissertation is how the experience of social ostracization and

839
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 2: being without your community all of a sudden is like

840
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 2: one of the most painful emotional experiences that a person

841
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 2: can have because we are wired to associate community with survival,

842
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 2: and the minute that community is completely gone, that feels

843
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,919
Speaker 2: like impending death to us. So it makes total sense

844
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 2: to me.

845
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 4: And there's also you know, this comes into play with

846
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,280
Speaker 4: game theory, which I studied a bit on the chess team,

847
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 4: but really in the military, which is kind of boils

848
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 4: down to we can't understand death. So the closest we

849
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 4: can come to it is being out of the game.

850
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 4: How you feel when you're out of the game. And

851
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 4: I got to watch this with helicopter pilots. When we

852
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 4: brief about the enemy and there's nobody playing the enemy,

853
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 4: they could not care less. But as soon as we

854
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 4: have actual Americans dressed up like bad guys that are

855
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 4: going to point at you in the sky and go

856
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 4: bang bang, you're out. All of a sudden, those briefs

857
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 4: are as high stakes as if you are actually deployed

858
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 4: getting shot at. Because we cannot stand being out of

859
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 4: the game.

860
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,280
Speaker 1: This is like so silly, but like even game nights

861
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 1: turn into very aggressive things.

862
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 6: I don't think it's silly, It's like that is kind

863
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 6: of what fomo is. Yeah, yeah, but they've studied this

864
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 6: in chess, that when you are about to be checkmated,

865
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:27,839
Speaker 6: almost nothing in.

866
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 4: Life gets your heart racing that fast, and not in sex.

867
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 4: Like that feeling is like you're you're literally about to

868
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,439
Speaker 4: get killed. That comes into our group dynamics just so.

869
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 2: Often in addition to the social piece of it, often

870
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 2: there's a huge financial element here where your entire survival

871
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 2: way of feeding yourself, your residence, it all is attached

872
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:52,879
Speaker 2: to the cult, and with.

873
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:57,280
Speaker 4: The financial element also comes in the sunk costs. Right

874
00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 4: often you weren't educated or missed out on education. Right

875
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 4: often you you know my husband, right, he had an

876
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:08,240
Speaker 4: amazing twenty year career, and now he's a police student,

877
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 4: a guest starting from scratch, because there isn't a big

878
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 4: market for combat helicopter pilots in the regular world, right,

879
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 4: So it's like you have to unfortunately, you know, I say,

880
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 4: this is where I get lucky that one of my

881
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 4: cults takes care of people on the outside, because I

882
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 4: get healthcare through the VA, and I got my master's

883
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,720
Speaker 4: through you know, the military. Pain for it, but often

884
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 4: and always worse for women. You know, you're trying to

885
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 4: leave with children, You're trying to leave with no education

886
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 4: or seriously reduced education. You've given so much labor because

887
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 4: cults are always about labor. And so it's not just

888
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 4: the money you're going to need on the outside, but

889
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 4: it's also all the money you don't have, all the

890
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 4: resources you don't have, right because of being you know in.

891
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 2: That situation, what was the thing you want?

892
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 4: Said?

893
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 2: You wanted to ask before Megan.

894
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,240
Speaker 4: He wants to talk about healing, okay, okay, give.

895
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 2: Us a brief of review.

896
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 5: Seven minutes to healing, okay.

897
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 4: Uncultured is the story of me thinking I could just

898
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:16,479
Speaker 4: run away from all of it. I could just be like, Nope,

899
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 4: never happened. I'm going to outperfect this trauma. And it

900
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 4: is also the story of the trauma catching up to

901
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:26,640
Speaker 4: me even though I run incredibly fast and still breaking me,

902
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 4: you know, and I really feel like I believe like

903
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 4: one day I will achieve enough that it will knock

904
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 4: it all out. And when you are a captain in

905
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 4: the army and one of people's favorite officers and it's

906
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,760
Speaker 4: still not enough, you feel like you're still a broken person.

907
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 4: You're like, Okay, I need to do something. And so

908
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,839
Speaker 4: I have been actively deconstructing and trying to heal in

909
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 4: some version since my twenties. I wrote the book because

910
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 4: I was going to die if I didn't write the book.

911
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 4: So part of the healing for me was saying it

912
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 4: out loud, I was talking about it, was putting the

913
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 4: words down. Part of the healing for me has been

914
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 4: I still get triggered right into these horribly dark places,

915
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 4: and I'm going to be back in a basement with

916
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 4: a pedophile, or I'm going to be back on a

917
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 4: tower thinking of jumping off. But when it happened the

918
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,280
Speaker 4: first time, I was really alone, and when it happens now,

919
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:26,359
Speaker 4: I have you know, over twenty thousand people who've walked

920
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:29,919
Speaker 4: through this story with me and who have reached out

921
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 4: to me and told me their similarities right or how

922
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:37,959
Speaker 4: they went through these things too. So huge HUO. Huge

923
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 4: part of it is talking about it, and I like

924
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 4: to tell people the options aren't put your whole past

925
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 4: in a closet or write a book, but you do

926
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 4: need to talk to your ten best friends about your actual.

927
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 2: Life or too. If you only have to.

928
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 4: What the good news is. Once you start talking about it,

929
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 4: you will probably have ten best friends because you will

930
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 4: find people that relate. But it's definitely your two right,

931
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 4: Like I have colleagues from the Children of God whose

932
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 4: Bousanes don't even know that they grew up there, right, like,

933
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:21,240
Speaker 4: please don't do that. I have also lost a lot

934
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 4: of friends and family from the Children of God that

935
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,440
Speaker 4: are no longer in the cult, but they just can't

936
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 4: be associated with me since I put it all out there,

937
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 4: and that's actually been really healing. For me because of

938
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,120
Speaker 4: the one of the ways we shut down people all

939
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 4: the time is by telling them, oh, you're just in

940
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,640
Speaker 4: victim mentality, or saying we just don't want to talk

941
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 4: about these heavy topics. We just want to talk about

942
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,839
Speaker 4: the nice things. And that's usually what toxic families will

943
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:55,280
Speaker 4: throw at the people trying to deconstruct. And so since

944
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 4: this happened very deliberately with me, I just had to

945
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 4: kind of set my own boundary now, which is I

946
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 4: don't do off limits topics. So I'm sorry, Like, if

947
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 4: you're that person, you just don't have to choose to

948
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,840
Speaker 4: be in my life. But I'm a scholar of cults,

949
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 4: extreme groups, and extremely bad leadership, and we are always

950
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 4: going to be getting into the heart stuff. And finally,

951
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 4: I will say therapy, right, I resisted therapy until I

952
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:28,360
Speaker 4: literally read uncultured and I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine.

953
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 4: And then I read uncultured all the way through and

954
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 4: I said, oh, this lady can't be fine, and I

955
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 4: immediately went and got a therapist. My therapist was raised

956
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:42,799
Speaker 4: in the Children of God, which has been crucial. And

957
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 4: I want to say to listeners, like, you have to

958
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 4: get a therapist who understands religious trauma and complex PTSD

959
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 4: if you are trying to recover from cult stuff. Because

960
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,439
Speaker 4: one of the reasons I resisted therapy was because I'd

961
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 4: had so many experiences of like telling my story, the

962
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 4: therapist cries, gives me a hug, tells me I'm a

963
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 4: great American. I'm not helpful, all right, So starting therapy,

964
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 4: of course, and then slowing down. You know, cults want

965
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 4: to keep us busy so that we can't think. And

966
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 4: then when we leave the cults, you know, I say,

967
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 4: we were always told we're nothing without Jesus. So then

968
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 4: I spent twenty years trying to prove that I was,

969
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 4: in fact something without Jesus. And there's this really great

970
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 4: quote I love about healing right now, because of course

971
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 4: healing's never done, and it says, we know we're healing

972
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 4: when peace and tranquility no longer sound like boredom. And

973
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 4: so for me, it's really been giving myself. You know,

974
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 4: I don't have to have a mission in life. My

975
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:56,839
Speaker 4: mission's accomplished. I wrote a best selling book, I had

976
00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 4: an amazing family, I have my you know, master's Harvard.

977
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 4: Like I'm done if I want to be, And so

978
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 4: I have to keep my mission bite sized, right, Like

979
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 4: my mission in life is to have a beautiful life

980
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:14,399
Speaker 4: with me and my family. It's not to end ripe

981
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 4: culture in the military, it's not to take down all cults.

982
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 4: These are jobs that I do. But my piece, my tranquility,

983
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 4: is something that I have to protect and something that

984
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 4: I have to actually build. And I think it's really

985
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 4: hard for those of us that are raised in apocalyptic

986
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:37,399
Speaker 4: thinking to live in our lives. Oh my god. I

987
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 4: grew up always planning to be dead, right, like I

988
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:44,279
Speaker 4: was never supposed to be. Literally, when I turned thirty three,

989
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 4: I was like, yes, I outlived Jesus. And everyone's like,

990
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 4: you're strange. I was like, well, in so many of us,

991
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 4: we will struggle with financial planning, we'll struggle with all

992
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 4: these different things, or we feel like if we just

993
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,799
Speaker 4: pick up and move, things will get better. And the

994
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 4: reality is we just never planned to be alive.

995
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard for me to care about this physical dimension.

996
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 1: It's like, what is this? I always thought it was

997
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:14,840
Speaker 1: just a passing thing. That's what I was taught.

998
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,839
Speaker 4: What I learned recently is clumsiness can be a big

999
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 4: part of that. Well, I'm beurious as you're in your head,

1000
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 4: you're not in your body.

1001
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 1: Well, we know you have to go, but we could

1002
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: probably talk to you for five more hours.

1003
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 5: I'll be honest. Yeah, thank you.

1004
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:34,319
Speaker 4: I just I want to say one more thing other

1005
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 4: than come follow me on TikTok, because we knit and

1006
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:40,360
Speaker 4: we talk about all this stuff and that uncultured. The

1007
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 4: paperback is on pre sale right now, which is I

1008
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 4: think an amazing gift for people in your life that

1009
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,799
Speaker 4: need to question their groups, or anyone that loves sound

1010
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 4: of freedom. Just give them this book for Christmas, and

1011
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 4: the book will do the work. But my final note

1012
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 4: was just like, I hate the way that healing is

1013
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 4: talked about because it's talked about as you're broken and

1014
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 4: then you heal, right, And I think like one of

1015
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:13,439
Speaker 4: my biggest breakthroughs was realizing It's another quote I love

1016
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 4: is that healing happens when you stop wishing for a

1017
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 4: do over, and it's just about accepting. You know. A

1018
00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 4: big thing for me has been accepting I'm always gonna

1019
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 4: have these scars, right. There's no amount of success I

1020
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 4: can ever get that will go back and give me

1021
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 4: a childhood. And so I like to talk about that,

1022
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 4: you know, like I, after doing this interview will have

1023
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 4: zero energy. Tomorrow I'll be buzzing for the rest of today.

1024
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 4: But tomorrow I will feel like people punched me in

1025
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 4: the face a bunch of times, and I'll have to

1026
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:51,680
Speaker 4: like curl up in a ball. It's okay, have therapy tomorrow.

1027
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:56,440
Speaker 4: But I just you know, we, especially in the cult space,

1028
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 4: like we like victims that are shiny, pretty and well

1029
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 4: put together when they tell their story, and I do

1030
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:07,920
Speaker 4: sometimes present as those things, and I just I don't

1031
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 4: like to leave anyone with that idea. I want people

1032
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 4: to know that, like, yes, it's amazing that I'm still

1033
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 4: standing upright and still doing things with my life, but

1034
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 4: some days I'm not right, and that's like to me,

1035
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:25,800
Speaker 4: that's what healing is is just knowing that this is

1036
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 4: the lot I have in life, and I can always

1037
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 4: keep working to improve things, but I also just need

1038
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:35,440
Speaker 4: to accept who I am and who I became because

1039
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 4: of these things.

1040
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 2: Right, I love that. Thank you so much for talking

1041
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 2: to us for so long. And can you just remind

1042
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:44,120
Speaker 2: people where they can find your book?

1043
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, you can get my book anywhere that you buy books.

1044
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 4: It is also available on audio, which the new York's

1045
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 4: Times said did not suck and I recorded it myself

1046
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 4: and I really love it when people listen. And then

1047
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 4: the paperback is on pre Style, so which is a

1048
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 4: great Christmas and your TikTok and the best place to

1049
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 4: find me is on TikTok. Easiest way is just search

1050
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 4: hashtag group behavior Gal And when you see the white

1051
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 4: lady knitting, that's me. My handle is at Daniella mestinek

1052
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 4: JEM but that one's more difficult.

1053
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us. That you're amazing,

1054
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 2: Your story is amazing and you have so much incredible insights,

1055
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 2: so I appreciate you coming on.

1056
00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 4: Thanks for such an interesting conversation with so many questions,

1057
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 4: and thanks to both of you for reading my book

1058
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 4: and getting me on your platform.

1059
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 2: And there concludes our interview with Daniella Megan. I'm dying

1060
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 2: to know if you think there's a world in which

1061
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:44,360
Speaker 2: you would have joined the military, Absolutely yes, tell me why?

1062
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:48,560
Speaker 1: Okay, if I was born into a different life circumstance,

1063
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:52,919
Speaker 1: I could totally see that being something that would be

1064
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 1: not something I necessarily wanted to do, but that would

1065
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 1: promise me, you know, a better life and access to

1066
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 1: education and stuff like that. And then also Homeland is

1067
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 1: my favorite show of all time. I watched it literally

1068
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,960
Speaker 1: every single night, and you know, she was an intelligence

1069
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 1: officer and all of these exciting things. Different sides of

1070
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 1: myself were saying different things, and yeah, I could totally

1071
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,920
Speaker 1: totally see myself doing that.

1072
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 2: Yeah I could too, because I, as we know, like

1073
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 2: briefly was like, maybe I'll be a cop because it'd

1074
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 2: be good to be a cop on the way to

1075
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 2: becoming an FBI profiler, which I wanted to do because

1076
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 2: I wanted to catch murderers.

1077
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 5: Not too late. Ps.

1078
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:41,640
Speaker 2: I think I have a different career path ahead of

1079
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 2: me at this stage.

1080
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 5: But cool.

1081
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 2: But I do think like there was this part of

1082
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 2: me when I was young that was obsessed with like

1083
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 2: every Ashley jud movie where she like had a gun

1084
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 2: and was like looking badass and like running around and

1085
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 2: beating up guys. There were I don't know, there was

1086
01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 2: a series of Ashley Judd movies.

1087
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 5: I know exactly what you're talking about.

1088
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 2: Okay, good, I feel like those that era is underrated

1089
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 2: and she is underrated at this point. But anyway, I

1090
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 2: wanted to be a badass so badly.

1091
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:11,440
Speaker 5: You know, at the end of the day.

1092
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:14,680
Speaker 1: What we're both saying is that like we would want to,

1093
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 1: but like could we not?

1094
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:17,960
Speaker 4: Sure?

1095
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:21,520
Speaker 1: I mean no, no, right, absolutely not like because if

1096
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:23,720
Speaker 1: we're saying like we just want to be Actuley Judd

1097
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:27,200
Speaker 1: and I want to and I want to be an Homeland.

1098
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 5: Then that's not the Army.

1099
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:34,360
Speaker 2: No, but I could have seen a world in which

1100
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:37,400
Speaker 2: I had I had become like an intelligence officer or something.

1101
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 1: Sure, same, same, same, But you know the book again,

1102
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 1: I can't stress enough how fascinating I found this book

1103
01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 1: Basic Training. She goes into so much detail and what

1104
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:52,680
Speaker 1: I last knew, So you know, I have.

1105
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 5: To be real with myself.

1106
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 1: Probably I could not, but I would give it the

1107
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 1: old college try and and I could see myself in

1108
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 1: a different world checking it out.

1109
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 2: Yeah all right, well great to know.

1110
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the fastest mile I've ever run is

1111
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:11,920
Speaker 1: like thirteen minutes.

1112
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:15,920
Speaker 2: I run so little that I don't know if that

1113
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:20,440
Speaker 2: is fast or slow. It's so slow, so I'm probably

1114
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 2: a twenty minute mile comparatively.

1115
01:02:22,440 --> 01:02:26,920
Speaker 1: Then okay, cool, So yeah, I guess that's my answer.

1116
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:30,840
Speaker 1: And we're so grateful that you guys spend another week

1117
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 1: with us here.

1118
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 5: We can't wait to see you again next week.

1119
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 1: As always, remember to follow your gut, watch out for

1120
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 1: red blacks, and never ever trust me.

1121
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 2: Hye bye. Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby

1122
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 2: Rapp and Steve Delemator.

1123
01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:52,800
Speaker 5: The special thanks to Stacy Para.

1124
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:55,160
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1125
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1126
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1127
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:03,520
Speaker 1: Trustne Cult Podcast.

1128
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1129
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1130
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1131
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.