1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 2: And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: and in war zones. We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 2: our adversaries. 7 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,760 Speaker 1: Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 8 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: theories large and small. 9 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 2: Could they be true or are we being manipulated? 10 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: This is Mission Implausible. 11 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 2: So it's really great to have Mike Rothschild on again. 12 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 2: Mike is a journalist, published author, and a foremost expert 13 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 2: in the ever changing Quanon conspiracy thing. Moreover, Mike explores 14 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 2: the intersections between Internet culture and politics through the lens 15 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 2: of conspiracy theories. He's a subject matter expert in the 16 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 2: field of fringe beliefs really important right now, and Mike 17 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 2: is a veteran Mission Implausible guest here with us for 18 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 2: the second time. 19 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 3: So Mike, welcome, Thank you for having me back. I'm 20 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 3: very excited, Mike. 21 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: So there's so much to start with, and so let 22 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 2: me start in the middle when we can work our 23 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 2: way around writers. This USAI D for me. I've got 24 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 2: a lot of friends in USA I D I think 25 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: John does two and it's destruction, taking it like Christy 26 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 2: Nome's dog, taking it down into the pit and shooting it. 27 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: All started out with a video falsely claiming that USAI 28 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 2: D paid Ben Stiller and Angelina, Joe Lee and other 29 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 2: actors millions of dollars to travel to the Ukraine. And 30 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 2: this was in an a clip that appeared to be 31 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 2: on entertainment news News And as it turns out, this 32 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 2: clip was actually Russian disinformation. And yet this didn't prevent 33 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 2: Elon Musk and President Musk President. 34 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 3: One, No, you were write the first time. 35 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 2: Co President Musk from using this as a pretext for 36 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 2: one of the pretexts for dismantling usa D, along with 37 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 2: another false claim that it provided fifty million dollars to 38 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 2: Hamas in Gaza for condoms, And of course the actual 39 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 2: answer was a little more complicated, but it did involve 40 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 2: aid to Gaza for people who were impacted, who were impactedgmatically. So, Mike, 41 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 2: where is the difference now between disinformation and conspiracy theories? 42 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 2: They have they melded into one, And how does if 43 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 2: the president can't keep it apart, how do we there 44 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 2: is no difference at this point. There really is no 45 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: separation between conspiracism, disinformation, politics, popular culture, internet culture, news 46 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 2: dissemination is it has all become the same thing. And 47 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 2: of course, so much of that really happened at light speed. 48 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,399 Speaker 2: Really during the first Trump campaign he rose to political 49 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: prominence not because of his brilliant ideas there's tax pol 50 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: his plans for the EU. It was because he was 51 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 2: screaming about how Barack Obama wasn't born in the United 52 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 2: States and had the Hawaiian health official with the copy 53 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 2: of his birth certificate killed in a plane crash, and 54 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: how you know, Antoine Scalia was smothered by a pillow 55 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 2: and Hillary Clinton was part of a secret cuple. That's 56 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 2: the stuff that really got through to people, and it 57 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 2: had this patina of oh, he says the things that 58 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 2: the rest of us are just thinking. 59 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 3: Well, the rest of us are not just thinking it. 60 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 3: It's only a small number of people thinking, but that's 61 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 3: a very politically active group. So really, that rubicon was 62 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 3: not crossed last month. It was crossed in twenty sixteen, 63 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 3: and unfortunately, we're just getting further and further away from 64 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 3: the last bridge back to the same place. At this point, 65 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 3: our government and the very levers that control how money 66 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 3: is collected and spent in this country are being controlled 67 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 3: by conspiracy adult lunatics. It's its federal law enforcement is 68 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 3: being controlled by conspiracy adult lunatics. Is the worst nightmare 69 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 3: of everything journalists and researchers have been writing about for 70 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 3: the last decade. 71 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: Mike, I think we should have probably known that some 72 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: of these things were false. Fifty million dollars on condoms. 73 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: I haven't even spent that in a last year on condoms, 74 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 1: and that doesn't make sense. Yeah, it seems in college. 75 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: But yeah, what I wanted to go quickly to something 76 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: very personal with you, as we understand that your house 77 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: was lost in the fires and Alta, Dina and so 78 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: and I understand that the conspiracy theories have built up 79 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: around some of the fires and obviously the federal government's 80 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: response to the fires. And first of all, we feel 81 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:36,920 Speaker 1: terrible for what's happened to you, but we've been to 82 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 1: send your thoughts on what you experienced and what you're saying. 83 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 3: Yes we did, we lost our house in the eating 84 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 3: fire in Altadena. We're safe, got the family out, got 85 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 3: the dogs out, got a few really important documents, lost 86 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,720 Speaker 3: everything else, But we are doing better than a lot 87 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 3: of people. And as soon as it the initial gut 88 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 3: punch of losing the house subsides and you start to think, Okay, 89 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 3: what's going to happen next? My first thoughts go to, Okay, 90 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 3: how is this going to drive online insanity? Because that's 91 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 3: what I think about, that's how I interface with the world. 92 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 3: And I knew that because disasters bring conspiracy theories, and 93 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 3: particularly fires have been bringing these directed energy weapon conspiracy theories, 94 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 3: I knew that would be a big part of it. 95 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 3: And of course, the fire takes place two weeks before 96 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 3: the second Trump inauguration, and he's already talking about all 97 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 3: the ways he's going to gut the federal government and 98 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 3: stick it to the deep state. So I immediately knew 99 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 3: that this would all get wrapped up in the sort 100 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 3: of the plastic cellophane of politics and conspiracism and tribalism 101 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 3: and this sort of weird Trump cult stuff. So immediately 102 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 3: you've got Trump blaming Gavin Newsom saying that, oh, they 103 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 3: didn't turn on the water spigett if they just opened 104 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 3: up the water and let it flow south and trucked 105 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 3: it down there, none of this would have happened. I'm like, you, 106 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 3: guys don't understand how any of this works, Like you 107 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 3: don't understand what happened that night and all of the 108 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 3: fact that went into the fact that there wasn't enough 109 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 3: water pressures because the whole city was on fire. The 110 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 3: idea that one house is destroyed while another house is standing, oh, 111 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 3: it means it was hit by a laser. I've seen 112 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,840 Speaker 3: this in my own neighborhood. My neighbor two doors down, 113 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 3: her house is still standing, the house behind us is 114 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 3: still standing. Everything around it is destroyed. That's just the 115 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 3: way fire works. It's very mysterious and it's complicated. But 116 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 3: that doesn't mean it's a conspiracy, except we seek easy 117 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 3: explanations through conspiracies. Hence everything about this fire has become 118 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 3: grist for this endless mill of paranoia. 119 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the same paranoia. So, Mike, I lived in 120 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 2: Hawaii and there was It started out with Marjorie Taylor 121 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 2: Green and the Jewish space lasers starting the fires in 122 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 2: California earlier, and then when there was the fire here 123 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: on well but on Maui, the Lahinea fire. It was 124 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 2: very quickly after that pictures started coming out of laser 125 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 2: beams coming out of the sky after pictures, and it 126 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: was the same set of conspiracy theories. And now with 127 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:07,239 Speaker 2: the California fires, it's again the same set of conspiracy theories. 128 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 3: It's yeah, yeah, you're seeing a lot of the same stuff, 129 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 3: but then there's variations on it. So the one thing 130 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 3: that we've had that other fires haven't had. There's been 131 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 3: a couple of things. There's the delta smelts that all 132 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 3: the water was like siphoned off to protect this endangered fish. 133 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 3: I mean, it's not true. But the other one that 134 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 3: was really hyperculture were driven is the DEI firefighters. The 135 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 3: people who were fighting the fires. They weren't qualified, they 136 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 3: were diversity HighRes It's ridiculous. I've watched the firefighters fighting 137 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 3: burning houses and you're not going to find people who 138 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 3: are more devoted to their community and more selfless about 139 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 3: risk than firefighters. Like blaming firefighters for this is a 140 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 3: level of insane that even I never thought I was. 141 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: Going to see. Douglas MacArthur had this famous quote that 142 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 2: old soldiers never die, right, they just fade away, And 143 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: so his QAnon died and faded away, or his transmographied 144 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 2: into the conspiracy theories that we're seeing now around USAID 145 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 2: and the deep State and all the rest. Is the 146 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: QAnon DNA still there, or the conspiracy theory is just changed. 147 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think in terms of q andon, I kind 148 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 3: of look at it like a butterfly. It is left 149 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 3: the chrysalis. It does not need the codes and the 150 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 3: riddles and the message board stuff and the mysterious military 151 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 3: intelligence avatar. The people who either believe this stuff or 152 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 3: have no trouble monetizing it off. The people who do 153 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 3: believe it, they're running things now. Cash Patel has promoted qwanon. 154 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 3: He is running the FBI. We don't need the riddles 155 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 3: and the codes and the choose your own adventure stuff anymore. 156 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 3: They moved way beyond that. There's never going to be 157 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 3: a need for another q drop because Donald Trump tweets 158 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 3: this stuff every day. Now, also there's QAnon, and it 159 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 3: is transformed into something so much bigger and so much 160 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 3: more mainstream and more palatable than I think really anybody 161 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 3: could have imagined even a couple of years ago. 162 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: You're one of the foremost experts on conspiracy theories, and 163 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: since we last talked We've been through a political campaign 164 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: and we have a new administration, and we've already mentioned 165 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: some of the names of the people there who are 166 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: conspiracists or conspiracy theorists. Cash Pttel and he just put 167 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: in as a deputy, Dan Bongino, TLCA Gabbert is over 168 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: at the Director of National Intelligence. How has your life 169 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: changed and how do you find yourself talking about these 170 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: people and politics more and what's your view of those 171 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: specific people and any others you might think of. 172 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 3: I think all of these people are grossly unqualified for 173 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 3: the jobs they have. Ian Robert F. Kennedy Junior running 174 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 3: Health and Human Services is just mind boggling. This is 175 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 3: a guy who thinks that COVID nineteen was engineered to 176 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 3: avoid Ashkenazi Jews. This is ridiculous. It has taken over 177 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 3: every aspect of our lives, of our commerce, of our culture, 178 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 3: of our medicine. And now you've got these people who 179 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 3: are making these massive cuts to government, who are cutting 180 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 3: things like researching ways to defend against the next pandemic, 181 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 3: because then they're going to turn around and sell like 182 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 3: supplements and raw milk on their podcasts. That are the 183 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 3: things that are going to help you actually fight it. 184 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 3: You've got the ameshment not just of sort of crank ideas, 185 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 3: but of crank commerce being pushed by the people at 186 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 3: the very top of this. It has changed everything about 187 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 3: our government and our culture and our politics. And we're 188 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 3: at the very beginning of this. I think the real 189 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 3: horrors of how this is all going to unfold are 190 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 3: really just ahead of us. You know, I was thinking 191 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,559 Speaker 3: the other day about how we're cutting the FAA. I mean, 192 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 3: air traffic controllers are being fired. What happens when we 193 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 3: get to May and families start flying around the country 194 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 3: on summer vacations and this gutted FAA is trying to 195 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 3: control all these planes in the air. What if a 196 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 3: bird flu epidemic crosses over into humans at that except 197 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 3: I mean, the ways that this could go wrong are 198 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 3: just mind boggling. And they are inescapable. And it used 199 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 3: to be you could compartmentalize some of this stuff. You know, 200 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 3: QAnon was bad and it was kind of everywhere, but 201 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 3: at least it wasn't like like Trump would talk about 202 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 3: it like once, but it wasn't running things. And now 203 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 3: these people are running things, and it's a whole new 204 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 3: level of bad and we're really just at the very 205 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 3: beginning of it. 206 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 2: More of this after a quick break. 207 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: All right, let's get back into it. 208 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 2: So I thought it was interesting that James Carr will 209 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,319 Speaker 2: come out recently and said he predicts or hopes amps 210 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 2: that the chickens will come home to roost soon. Right, 211 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 2: that if you have your health policy where you don't 212 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 2: accept the germ theory of disease, or if you think 213 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 2: the Russians are your realize you destroy your alliances, that 214 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 2: there's real consequences to this, and when they hippen that 215 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 2: people will get it the vast majority and turn again 216 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,719 Speaker 2: the conspiracy theorist because they because it's not working. I'm 217 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 2: not sure that's the case. So when conspiracy theories don't 218 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: come to pass, how do conspiracy theorists explain this away 219 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 2: like none of the q Andon stuff happened. 220 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 3: I certainly hope the chickens come home to roost in 221 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 3: a way that is not horribly destructive for the country 222 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 3: and the world. I really hope there's not another pandemic 223 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 3: to prove how wrong they were. Nobody needs that. But 224 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 3: conspiracy believers have a remarkable way of taking the failure 225 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 3: of their prophecies and of their plots as confirmation that 226 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 3: the plots are actually true. They're just coming true in 227 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 3: a different way. There's the famous book for the nineteen 228 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 3: fifties when prophecy fails that it's a book that everybody 229 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 3: should read. It's the Study of a UFO cult. And 230 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 3: it's a very small group. But they go out of 231 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 3: the streets of Chicago and I'm freezing Christmas Eve, waiting 232 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 3: for the saucer to come down and take them away. Well, 233 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 3: the saucer doesn't come down and take them away. What 234 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 3: do you do? Then a few people drift away, but 235 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 3: the rest of these people go own away everything in 236 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 3: my life. I've left my family and my job to 237 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 3: live at the house with the great mother who gets 238 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,319 Speaker 3: the automatic writing messages from the aliens. What am I 239 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 3: gonna do? I can't go back. And if I leave 240 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 3: and the saucer comes tomorrow, I'm gonna feel really stupid. 241 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 3: So you stick with it, and you rationalize it, and 242 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 3: you find ways to make yourself believe that it's still 243 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 3: gonna come true. It's just gonna happen in a different way. 244 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 3: So I think you saw that constantly with QAnon, with 245 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,959 Speaker 3: these very very specific predictions that Hillary Clinton is going 246 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 3: to be arrested on October thirty first, twenty seventeen. Obviously 247 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 3: that didn't happen, and they rationalized it by saying Q 248 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 3: was actually talking about Saudi Arabia, not Hillary Clinton. I mean, 249 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 3: never mind that he literally said Hillary Clinton will be arrested. 250 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 3: It doesn't matter. Once you have talked yourself into believing 251 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 3: something outlandish, you will continue to believe that outlandish thing 252 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 3: because the alternative is saying I was wrong, I got fooled, 253 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 3: and now I have to go back to all the 254 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 3: people in my life and tell them I was wrong 255 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 3: and they were right. I mean, very few people really 256 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 3: have the ability to do that. Conspiracy theorists will come 257 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 3: up with new justifications, new causes for why the thing 258 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 3: either didn't happen or why it was actually a good thing. 259 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 3: You're starting to see that already with this measles outbreak 260 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 3: in Texas. You're seeing wellness, people going, well, measles is 261 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 3: actually good. We all got measles when we were a kid, 262 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 3: and we were just fine. Well, like lot of people 263 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 3: weren't actually just fine when they got measles. But more 264 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 3: than that, like measles is the harbinger for things like polio. 265 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 3: I mean, my god, can you imagine a polio outbreak 266 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 3: in this country right now? It's unfathomable. They'll find a 267 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 3: way to justify it and blame somebody else for it, 268 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 3: even when it happens to them. 269 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: It's going to be very interesting to see how this 270 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: works out. So since Jerry and I worked in a 271 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: large organization, it was complicated. So Telsea Gabert is going 272 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: into the Director of National Intelligence Kesh Pttel and Dan 273 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: but Gino are going into the FBI. It's gonna be 274 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: really interest to see when they're in charge because they 275 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: are going to be responsible for a huge workforce with 276 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: lots of things happening, and they're going to be brief 277 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: every day. They could be brief. There's could be things happening. 278 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: It's things in the world. Is going to be arrest 279 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: there's going to be problems. There's gonna be and somehow 280 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: it's easy if you're on the outside, you can just 281 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: say crazy things because you're never held accountable or responsible 282 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: in any way. And now you're inside and at some 283 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: level you have to accept these people as your your 284 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: people who work for you, because you want your organization 285 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: to succeed. You want to come out and say I've 286 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: made the FBI stronger and now we're doing all these 287 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: better things. Are they just going to say, oh, well, 288 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: we got rid of all the bad people. Now these 289 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: are all geniuses and they work for me, and so 290 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: everything's good because it's easy from the outside to say 291 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: dumb stuff. When you're responsible for it. 292 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 2: It's going to be different, right, you know, show us 293 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 2: the aliens. If they don't show us the aliens, then 294 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 2: they're also part of the deep state. They're captured by. 295 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, if Trump had four years to you know, tell 296 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 3: us who really killed JFK and show us the saucers 297 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 3: from Roswell and it was always like, wow, I'm going 298 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 3: to release it in two weeks and it's going to 299 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 3: be mind blowing. And we got to just get these 300 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 3: couple of things out of the way. That's really where 301 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 3: QAnon came from. Is you get into kind of Trump's 302 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 3: first year in office, and he hasn't locked up Hillary Clinton, 303 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 3: he has not built the wall, he has not declassified 304 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 3: all the JFK documents and exposed Barack Obama as being 305 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 3: a Kenyan Muslim. You got to find some way to 306 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 3: justify why he hasn't done it. If you're a Trump devotee, 307 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 3: you can't say he hasn't done it because he's useless 308 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 3: and it was never going to do it. As an idiot, 309 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 3: you say, well, there, the deep State is stopping him 310 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 3: from doing it, but we're on the inside, and we're 311 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 3: going to show you how it's really happening in a 312 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 3: way that can't be traced back to us. So you 313 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 3: get the codes and the riddles and the prophecies of QAnon, 314 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 3: and it's a way to continue to push conspiracy theories 315 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 3: even when theoretically you have the power to make all 316 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 3: these things go away. 317 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: I think one of Trump's gifts is this ability to 318 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: pretend he's on the outside even when he's on the inside. 319 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: And so he created the deep state and he's doing 320 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: it now, like all of a sudden, he'll be like, 321 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,399 Speaker 1: we don't know what's in Fort Knox. You're the president 322 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: of the United States. You work the frut, You can 323 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: go there any time you want. You could you get 324 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: the people who are there can show you what's in there. 325 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: Like that stuff works for him with a public who 326 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: doesn't understand the stuff either, so he can pretend like 327 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: he's one of them, even though he's actually in charge 328 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: of these things. 329 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,360 Speaker 3: People want to be told what's happening, and they want 330 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 3: an explanation. And when you have the president saying we 331 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 3: don't know what's in Fort Knox, you're the president, you 332 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 3: were already the president. You could have gone there at 333 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 3: any time, like you could have proven the gold was 334 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 3: or wasn't there eight years ago? What is taking so long? 335 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 2: So, like you've done a lot of study of cult 336 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 2: leaders and how they message and how they controlled their followings, 337 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 2: and I'm curious as to what you think speculation about 338 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,360 Speaker 2: this messaging now coming you know directly from the president 339 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 2: that joking but it's not really joking, and joking about 340 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 2: a third term and also calling himself king increasingly now 341 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 2: when a cult leader starts giving themselves complete control, where 342 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 2: the laws of political laws, in the laws of gravity, 343 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 2: by economics don't apply to them, they believe. So what 344 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,199 Speaker 2: do you think is going on there with that? 345 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,360 Speaker 3: If you watch these speeches? I mean, remember those cabinet 346 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,880 Speaker 3: meetings from Trump's first term where you just go around 347 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 3: the table and every single person there would just lavish 348 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 3: him with praise. And those were sort of the non 349 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 3: Trump outsider people. Now he's nominating people who are just 350 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 3: conspiracy podcasters who just worship the ground he walks on. 351 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 3: You know, I know that there's always been this thing 352 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 3: of like, oh, do we take Trump seriously? Do we 353 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 3: take him literally? Is it just a joke? Is he trolling? 354 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 3: First of all, the guy has no ability to be funny, 355 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 3: so he's never it's hard to tell sometimes what he 356 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 3: means in the moment, and he's always been like that. 357 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 3: But when he talks about himself like a king, nobody 358 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 3: would say that unless they believed at least some part 359 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 3: of it. I think he really does believe he is 360 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 3: the king of America. I mean, do I think he's 361 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 3: going to try to run for a third term. I 362 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 3: honestly have no idea. I don't know if he's going 363 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 3: to be coherent in four years. But just the fact 364 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 3: that he continues to talk about this and he continues 365 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 3: to rile up his fan base to believe that he 366 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 3: has the ability to do this. The law just does 367 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 3: not apply to him. But you also fear for the 368 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 3: next iteration of Trump and whether that's jd Vance and 369 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 3: I don't think it is, but somebody may be a 370 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 3: decade or two down the line. Who takes the techniques 371 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 3: that Trump was able to use in his decades of 372 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 3: being on TV and being a tabloid fixture and actually 373 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 3: apply them to a coherent, competent version of fascism in 374 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 3: a way that really hasn't even presented itself yet. 375 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: Hold on just a second, Well we take a quick break. 376 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 2: Let's get back into it. 377 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: Jerry and I want to take advantage of your expertise here. 378 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 1: You can maybe help us with this as podcasters. Can 379 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 1: you help us monetize what we're doing, Like what conspiracies 380 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: can make us the most money? What should we jump 381 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: on where there's some money that we can sort of 382 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: go after. 383 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 3: Wait, I wish I knew, you know. I've had people 384 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 3: who've been like, oh, you know you understand conspiracy theories, 385 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 3: so well, why don't you start like an alternate, you know, 386 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 3: anonymous version of yourself pushing this stuff and you can 387 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 3: cash in on Like, I guess I could do that, 388 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 3: but I just to be able to sleep at night. 389 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 3: There is so much money in the fear mongering and 390 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 3: the plot creation that these guys are able to do. 391 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 3: Bongino was able to do it because he was a 392 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 3: secret Service agent for a little bit of time, and 393 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 3: he parlayed that into this sort of screaming incoherence about liberals. 394 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 3: And it really is just taking the most hateful, most 395 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 3: paranoid stuff that really dials into the fear that has 396 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,959 Speaker 3: been on the far right for a long time. And 397 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 3: there is just a limitless pool of money to be 398 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 3: able to fund stuff like that. I just think you 399 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 3: have to not have a soul or a conscience to 400 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 3: be able to tap into it. 401 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 2: The way we can monetize this, John is not to 402 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 2: create our own conspiracy theories, but to sell our souls 403 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 2: exactly as you say, Yeah, I don't know how much 404 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 2: my soul can be monetized as But like jd Vance, 405 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 2: who was calling Trump Hitler two years ago, or Mark Rubio, 406 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 2: I think what we need to do is we need 407 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 2: to like become turncoats to reality and rationality, and we 408 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 2: need to like buy in. So people like Mark Rubio, 409 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 2: who I've briefed in the past, right, I have at 410 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 2: least a sort of an understanding of how he operates. 411 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 2: He's an intelligent guy. I got to assume that he 412 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 2: knows that this shit isn't true. And Jady Vance too. 413 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't have any interactions with him. 414 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 2: The problem, of course, is around Trump now, no one 415 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 2: will say no to him when he says I'm king. 416 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 2: They all have to say yes or they're gone. Right, 417 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 2: there's no guardrails anymore. 418 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been really fascinating watching Congressional Republicans stand there 419 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 3: as Elon Musk and his doze door go in and 420 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 3: essentially take control of federal spending, which is the thing 421 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 3: that the House is supposed to do it. Why would 422 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 3: House Republicans, who presumably have fought so hard and work 423 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 3: so hard to get this power, why are they just 424 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 3: giving it up? Why are they just standing there? Is 425 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 3: it fear? Is it just laziness? And you just don't know. 426 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 3: And I think for a lot of the especially the 427 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 3: really vociferous anti Trump Republicans who have licked the boot 428 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 3: and gone in, people like Rubio, people like Lindsey Graham, 429 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 3: I think for them, it's this is what's happening, and 430 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 3: I can either be part of it, or I can 431 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 3: get cast out and I can either be ostracized by 432 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 3: the President, or I can play golf with him, and 433 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 3: I can either be banned from Fox News or I 434 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 3: can be on Fox News whenever I want. So you 435 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 3: just go along to get along, and you realize that 436 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 3: Trump is not going to be president forever, this will 437 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 3: end at some point. Then you can, you know, make 438 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 3: your big Maya culpa and go, oh, I had to 439 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 3: go along with it because somebody had to be in charge, 440 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 3: somebody had to be the adult in the road. Complete nonsense. 441 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 3: But if you can get some people in your district 442 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 3: to go along with it, then you can have played 443 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 3: both sides. Or you just take your big payoff, maybe 444 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 3: sign a book deal and get on the speaker's circuit 445 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,280 Speaker 3: and just right off into the sunset once this is 446 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 3: all over. So I think for a lot of these people, 447 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 3: it's just self preservation. It's just a way to continue 448 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 3: to have the status that you have, continue to have 449 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 3: the access that you have, continue to be invited to 450 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 3: the important parties, and you get to play golf with 451 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 3: the president and the prime ministers and whatever, and if 452 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 3: you have to eat some crap for a while to 453 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 3: do it, that's just part of the thing. And I 454 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 3: think that's probably the simplest explanation. It's the most craven 455 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 3: and cowardly one, but a lot of these people are 456 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 3: just craven cowards. 457 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, so as long as you have no prior conscience, 458 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: that way to go. 459 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, having lived in places with dictators, iconography is really important. 460 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 2: Go to any Soviet Union, ay of those countries. The 461 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 2: picture the leader is there, right, the picture of Hitler, 462 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 2: the picture of Stalin. And yet now, at least for 463 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 2: me and for a lot of people I know, the 464 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 2: iconography of Trump is Trump sitting behind a desk, saying nothing, 465 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 2: as a man in a black jacket and black shirt 466 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 2: with a black who feels so comfortable that he can 467 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 2: bring his kid to run around inside of them. What's 468 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 2: your what's your sense? Elon? The unique feature of Elon Musk. 469 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 2: He seems to be the perfect person to build conspiracy 470 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 2: theories around, and yet I don't see a lot of 471 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 2: him being the center of conspiracy theories right now. 472 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 3: The Trump people, they all love Musk because I think 473 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 3: they see Musk a lot like they see Trump, and 474 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 3: the way they see Trump is an extension of themselves. 475 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 3: The Trump and Musk are the guys they want to be. 476 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 3: They are rich, they're powerful, They've got lots of kids, 477 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 3: There's lots of different beautiful women. They can do whatever 478 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 3: they want, They can say whatever they want. That's the 479 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 3: image that a lot of these people have created for themselves. 480 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 3: Of course, they'll never get there, because Trump and Muscle 481 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 3: were both into money, and they both got very lucky 482 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 3: in a lot of different ways, and they've created this 483 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 3: image for themselves. I think with Musk and this sort 484 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 3: of dominance and this kind of relationship with Trump, it's 485 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 3: it's a kind of a wild card because you would 486 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 3: think that Trump's ego is so gigantic and his need 487 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 3: to be the guy and the center of attention is 488 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 3: so all consuming that like, how could he sit there 489 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 3: and have Elon Musk howering over him and letting his 490 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 3: kid like talk smacked him? Like what dictator with total 491 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 3: control over his image would allow that to happen. And 492 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 3: I do start to wonder, and I hate speculating about 493 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 3: these people's like mental states or physical states, but you 494 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,200 Speaker 3: do kind of wonder how much is Trump actually there? 495 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 3: How with it is he is he really realizing that 496 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 3: he looks like a letting himself be physically dominated by 497 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 3: Elon Musk and like doing co interviews with Sean Hannity 498 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 3: with Elon Musk, he's the president he's the king. The 499 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 3: King doesn't do co interviews. It's like Woodrow Wilson after 500 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 3: his stroke in nineteen eighteen, when it was like, oh, 501 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 3: his wife is actually kind of running things. You could 502 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 3: do that in nineteen eighteen because there was no real 503 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 3: mass media and there were no nuclear weapons. I mean, 504 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 3: the things moved slowly then. It's hard to do that 505 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 3: now and the stakes are a lot higher, and I 506 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 3: do wonder how long this can continue. 507 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: I'm of the view that Trump has always been not 508 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: very smart and becoming less so whether he's there or not. 509 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 1: But he does have incredible animal instincts, and I think 510 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: Musk serves a purpose for him because when anything really 511 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: goes wrong, he can just throw him under the bus 512 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: and blame Musk, not himself. He can say, well, a 513 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: Musk is doing that, I'm not really paying attention. He's 514 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: deflecting any accountability from himself, and he has a real 515 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: gift for that. But there are in terms of Musk, 516 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 1: are there conspiracies that were starting to see there with 517 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: the tech bros And Silicon Valley and Elon Musk and 518 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: a number of these people who came from South Africa. 519 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: Musk wants to send people to Mars. There's been some 520 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,719 Speaker 1: interesting interviews lately with Kara Swisher, who wrote reports on 521 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: Silicon Billy, talking about this sort of view that the 522 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: present order needs to be destroyed and government needs to 523 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: be destroyed so that we can prepare to go to 524 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: Mars and all these other kind of things that Muskt, 525 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,360 Speaker 1: you know, and wants to destroy things to benefit himself, 526 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: and in the process he's involved in things that are 527 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: helping his companies at the same time. And so there's 528 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,880 Speaker 1: enough things floating around there that if the Left wants 529 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: to create conspiracy theories, there's plenty there. And maybe in 530 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: fact there's a little bit of conspiracy there too. I 531 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: think there's a lot of truth in a lot of 532 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: these things. I think Musk is enormously a megalomaniacal. I 533 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: think he is someone who really. 534 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 3: Wants to have everything. He wondered, like, why would the 535 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 3: richest man in the world need to ruin the United 536 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 3: States government so that SpaceX can get a leg up 537 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 3: on its competitors. It makes no sense to the vast 538 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 3: majority of us. But if you've got that kind of 539 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 3: instinct to gather so much money that no one else 540 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 3: has more money than you. Then you're never gonna stop 541 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 3: you never going to stop gathering money, You're never going 542 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 3: to stop destroying your competitors until it's just you at 543 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 3: the end. And then you're like sitting alone on your 544 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 3: Marcian colony and no one else is there, and you're going, oh, 545 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 3: maybe this wasn't a great idea. I think that's a 546 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 3: kind of greed and a kind of megalomania that we've 547 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 3: never seen in our government. I mean, we've obviously seen 548 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 3: sort of heady grift in governments, but never like this, 549 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 3: I mean, never this kind of messianic desire to destroy 550 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 3: everything and take everything. 551 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 2: People think it can't get that bad. You need to 552 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 2: look at history a little bit. Look at what Mao 553 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 2: did with a Great leave forward. He destroyed the Chinese 554 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 2: economy for for thirty years, what Stalin did during the 555 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 2: purges and the Great Famines, what pot and khmar resotion 556 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 2: was going to be my lands one, but I was 557 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 2: going to go with Argentina, with Juan Perill right, who 558 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 2: completely destroyed the Argentine economy, which was one of the 559 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 2: richest economies in the world in the nineteen forties. And 560 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 2: so yeah, it can get way worse. Unless we like 561 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 2: were together and try to establish this. 562 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: But one of the things that I think sometimes we say, oh, 563 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: these people around Trump there, they're crazy, of they're conspiracy theorists. 564 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: We call them lutex some of them Trump himself and 565 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: I think Musk too, are good at weaponizing conspiracy theory. 566 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: So they did this. They decided they were going to 567 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: kill the USAID, which is actually not a big powerful organization, 568 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: and they immediately created stories that are insane that that 569 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: is the biggest criminal organization ever, that these people are lunatics, 570 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: left wing lunatics. Marxist is maybe the biggest fraud ever 571 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: put on the American which is just like, it's so 572 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: not it's just a small organization that money from Congress 573 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: and often from our farmers to places overseas that we 574 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: need to believe help. So like they spread those conspiracy 575 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: theories so that when people see this happening, they're like, like, 576 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: by thank God that they're dealing with these horrible things 577 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:55,479 Speaker 1: that have been happening in our government. I'm like, how 578 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: do you start with that. It's like they've created a 579 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: fake conspiracy theory and they pump it and and they 580 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: have the soapbox and I just put. 581 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,920 Speaker 2: It up in and say, if USAID was a criminal organization, 582 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 2: why didn't Trump get rid of it when he was 583 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 2: there for four years? Has over the Congress have been 584 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 2: overseeing it since it's inception? That's right. And Ivanka Trump 585 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 2: was part of it, right, She was involved in a 586 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 2: number of USAID initiatives and made money off of it. 587 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really classic logical fallacy. It's the straw 588 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 3: man argument. You create a villain or an argument, and 589 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 3: you are the one who then solves. You're the one 590 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 3: who solves the problem that you created, or you win 591 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 3: the argument against the thing that you made up. It's 592 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 3: a really easy way to look smart and look like 593 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 3: you're doing something and look like you're getting a big win. 594 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 3: I think in terms of these very early days of 595 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 3: Trump and these giant government cuts, they needed a win. 596 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 3: They needed something that they could look at and publicly 597 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 3: point to as the That is an example of how 598 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 3: the Democrats and the other Rhino Republicans were wasting your money. 599 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 3: They were taking your hard earned tax payer dollars and 600 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 3: giving it to Hamas to you know, have sex, or 601 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 3: giving it to some study of the Botswana fruit fly. 602 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 3: And they're giving it to our enemies, and they're taking 603 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 3: away from they're taking food from the tables of Americans 604 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 3: and giving it away. Never Mind that it's not true. 605 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 3: Never mind that this is a program that really has 606 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 3: a lot of really important functions in terms of projecting 607 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 3: US power around the world in terms of like feeding children, 608 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 3: which you would think that we would all be okay with, 609 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 3: in particularly the Republicans who were all marching in the 610 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,719 Speaker 3: streets to save the children four years ago. But people 611 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 3: don't understand it, and they've never heard of it. And 612 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 3: if the first thing they've heard of it is it's 613 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 3: bad and it's run by evil people and we're stopping it, 614 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 3: you go, oh, thank god. This thing that i'd never 615 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 3: heard of until five minutes ago that was ruining my life, 616 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 3: apparently now it's being stopped. I mean, you've got food 617 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 3: that Congress had appropriated the money for that is just 618 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 3: sitting there rotting that could have gone to help people, 619 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 3: and it's not because Elon Musk has cooked up conspiracy 620 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 3: theory about Ben Stiller getting paid to go to Ukraine's. 621 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 3: It's crazy, but it's also it fills that need that 622 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 3: all conspiracies fill for a villain for a bad guy 623 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 3: and for a secret plot that your friends and the 624 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 3: people you respect are exposed. 625 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: Mike, we could speak to you for a much longer 626 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: on these kind of things, but we want to have 627 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 1: you on again absolute because we're gonna need There's going 628 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: to be continued conspiracies in our government and around our lives. 629 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: But thank you again for spending so much time with us, 630 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: and what you're doing on our political front is very helpful. 631 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 3: Thank you, guys, this is great. 632 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 4: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Ceipher, 633 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 4: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission 634 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 4: Implausible It's a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures 635 00:32:51,680 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 4: for iHeart Podcasts