WEBVTT - Damian Kulash 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.520 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to The Bob left Set's podcast. 0:00:13.119 --> 0:00:18.520 My guest today is Damian Kulash. Okay, go Damien, how 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:21.040 do you feel about your BM being more famous for 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:22.759 its videos than its music. 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:27.960 I think it's just a it's crazy, Like I my 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:31.680 feeling is, it's what it is. Like, I'm just I 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.199 feel very lucky that I get to keep making art. 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:35.519 You know. 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:41.640 Okay, but you know you look on Spotify and some 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:45.559 of your early material has been streamed more. What do 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:47.640 you think it can do to get people to listen 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:51.480 and pay attention more to the music than the videos. 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:56.840 Let's keep making it. I mean, there's there We get 0:00:56.880 --> 0:01:00.480 this question all the time, and that as if the 0:01:00.640 --> 0:01:05.000 videos are somehow cannibalizing the music, like it's the other 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:07.959 way around, Like I you know, we make great songs. 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:10.000 We make really great songs. Lots of bands make really 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:12.840 great songs. We also make really great videos. Not lots 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:14.840 of bands make really great video you know, So we'll 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:17.320 sort of like in a category of one with respective 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:19.560 the videos, whereas we're in a category of lots when 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:23.440 it comes to the songs. And I'm glad that that 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:25.560 the videos bring more listeners I'm glad that we keep 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:27.320 get to keep making the stuff we get to keep making. 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:30.240 I mean, do I understand the difference between my eyes 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:34.920 and my ears. Absolutely, But from my perspective, like what 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:38.360 I want to spend my days doing is chasing art ideas, 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:41.520 you know, chasing chasing the muse, and I get to 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:43.120 keep doing it. That's what matters to me. 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:46.800 Okay, let's talk about the upcoming year, twenty twenty six. 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:49.920 I look at your website and I see one gig 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:52.720 listed in February. So what are the plans for twenty 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:53.400 twenty six? 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:57.040 We have We have some during plans that have yet 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:00.400 to we haven't announced them yet where we have a uh, 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:04.160 we're looking at some summer festivals right now and possibly 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:07.520 a tour of the summer. We're starting up some work 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:10.000 on new videos right now. You know, we had our 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:13.120 first album in years come out last you know, last April. 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:15.760 So this has been a big year of shows and 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:19.440 promo and videos and we're happy to be back at it. 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:23.280 Other than video, how do you promote the new album? 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:27.600 I mean, we do all those standards stuff like there, 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:31.920 you know, we've we have indie radio promoters and we 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:34.720 do we you know, we we are active on social media, 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:39.160 and you know, we have we're we're we're published through 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:43.079 Warner Chapel, and we are We're distributed through Symphonics, so 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:45.520 we have like and both of those have their own 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:48.480 promotional arms as well. So like, I think we do 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:50.240 all the standard stuff, but to be honest, I don't. 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:52.960 I don't really know what the music industry standards are anymore, 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:57.440 and and I'm not you know, a big part of 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.519 it for us just keeping it keeping in direct contact 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:03.200 with our existing fan base, you know, Like since the 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.079 earliest days of our band, we would go out after 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:08.880 shows with a with a spiral notebook and just get 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:11.000 people to you know, give us their email addresses because 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:15.000 we didn't want to be you know, we didn't we 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:18.040 didn't want the label to be stuck in between us 0:03:18.080 --> 0:03:21.000 and our fans. We would, of course loved the label 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:23.520 to help us find more fans and connecting more people 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:27.600 out there in the world. But the the you know what, 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:31.040 the real sort of transaction for us is make the 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:33.359 stuff find the people. You know, Like, we make the 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:35.760 stuff and we want to give it right to the people. 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:37.440 That's sort of the whole game. 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:41.320 To what degree are you personally active on social media 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:43.840 promoting both yourself and the band? 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:50.040 It kind of comes and goes. I I personally hate 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:54.240 social media, like just because I'm a father. I see 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.640 what it can do to young kids. I'm a human. 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:58.280 I see what it does to my own brain, like 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:02.760 that sort of like that suck of that attention suck 0:04:02.800 --> 0:04:04.480 where you go down the rabbit hole and you can't 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.880 get out. It's just a gross feeling. But I also 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:12.160 know it's how culture moves these days. So especially with 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:14.920 a record coming out, I'd made an effort to be present, 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:19.080 to to like pay attention to my own social media 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:22.479 and to the band social media it is a hard 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:25.280 thing for me to do without losing myself in it. 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:30.200 So I am kind of always walking a balance, you know. 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:34.159 So if one were to subscribe to your feeds, what 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:36.800 would they see? 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:42.280 My personal feed is mostly like stuff I'm interested in personally, 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.080 and I try I try to I when I do podcasts, 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:47.240 I try to, like, you know, I try to put 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:51.839 a link on there. The band's feed is the band's feed. 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.560 We try to be more regular with the band's feed, 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:57.320 make sure that we have something every couple of days, 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.400 and make sure you know, we have things specif the 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:02.600 shows we've just done, specific to the awards that were 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:05.680 up for, specific to the the things we think the 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.440 fans would care about. We do our best to try 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:13.720 to make material that fits the the format, which is 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.880 an ever evolving thing. You know, It's like it. I 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:19.360 think there are people who grew up more native to it, 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:22.200 who actually want to take out a phone and film 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:25.919 themselves doing their daily routines. That just doesn't interest me. 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:28.479 I'm sure if that were native to me, we would 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:29.039 be better at it. 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.040 But you know, okay, so there's a line between your 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:35.520 art and your personal life. You don't have a need 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.839 or don't want to get your personal life out to 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:40.520 many people. 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:45.840 Oh god, no, I mean I remember early on in 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:52.720 our career a person at a major label telling me, like, 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:55.279 you really should just like, you know, live stream your life. 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:57.479 You know, you should have a blog going all the time, 0:05:57.520 --> 0:05:59.520 you should have all this stuff. And I remember thinking, 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.280 because I remember that the example in my head was 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.479 the Pixies, that I grew up a massive Pixies fan, 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:09.440 and if I had actually like part of what I 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:13.839 loved was that they were godlike to me, and and 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:16.840 imagining who and what that person was, and that if 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:21.039 I actually had to watch, you know, Frank Black eat 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:23.360 breakfast cereal in the morning, I probably would feel pretty 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:27.479 differently about him. And I was just wrong, you know, 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:31.559 like I was wrong in terms of the way culture moved. 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:33.839 I'm I'm not wrong for me, like I just that's 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.440 not I want my private life. I want my time 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:38.760 with my kids to be my time with my kids. 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:40.240 I don't want them online, you know. I want my 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:41.919 time with my family to be my time with my family. 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:45.000 I want my time sitting alone in a studio trying 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:47.919 to figure out what cords should come next. That's like 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.320 a nearly religious experience for me that I don't The 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:52.919 last thing I want to be thinking about at that 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:56.240 time is like the camera angle, you know, or or 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:00.279 letting somebody into the process. I know, it's I know, 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.680 that's how marketing has done. I know that's like that 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:06.359 people half my age feel differently about that than I do. 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:08.560 But I it's just that's me. You know. 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:14.440 Have you met Frank Black Black Francis, Yeah, yeah, I have. 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:19.200 Actually, our mutual friend Jamie Kitman introduced me to him 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:21.679 early on, and he gave me some very great advice 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:23.680 about my career. I'm still I'm still a mega fan, 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:25.720 but you know, still at a distance. 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.240 Well, I guess what I'm asking is, you had an 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:32.800 illusion of the man after meeting him. How did you feel? 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:38.520 I have a different illusion to the man. It's still 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:40.800 a good one. I it's you know, we're not We're 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:45.320 not like best friends. But I I, I was already 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:48.680 an adult with enough with and what I was asking was, 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:50.680 you know, I mean, the big question I had for 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.120 him when I was a twenty two year old with 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:56.400 just getting my first major label deal, was I want 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:58.280 to learn to sing better. And he gave me. He 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:00.120 gave me his vocal coach, you know, like and I 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:02.160 still do that. I still do the warm up his 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:07.240 vocal coach gave me every day, you know, And I remember, 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:12.880 I remember his His publishing advice was very very draconian, 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:14.840 don't don't give a cent to anyone kind of thing. 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.680 And I mean, I just he it was already an 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:21.240 adult getting an advice from getting advice from another adult, 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:24.520 Very different from a fourteen year old getting get you know, 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:29.200 getting your way in the world by hearing raw rage 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:29.960 on vinyl. 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:34.360 You know, Okay, but the privilege of stardom, if we 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.040 want to call it a privilege, is that you get 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:40.600 to meet a lot of household names, and needless to say, 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:44.400 they're very different from one's impression in most cases not all. 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.520 So what has been your experience meeting the famous people? 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:53.000 They're humans, They're all humans, you know, like it. It 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:58.959 is remarkable how how pedestrian and human every human is, 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:02.679 and and there there are. I mean, I've gotten the 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:09.280 chance to meet some extraordinarily talented famous and and uh 0:09:09.760 --> 0:09:14.120 well healed ones and it doesn't you know that it's 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.920 it's always the same human stuff. I mean, I find 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:22.640 that very reassuring in some way that it's not there 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:25.120 isn't an us and in them there isn't a way 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:27.800 that the other half lived that's different. You know, they 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:30.560 might have a lot more money or more access, but 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:31.960 there's the. 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:37.560 The people I know who are really really big celebrity 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:43.320 have a really big celebrity face are are unfailingly nothing 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:43.600 like it. 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:47.280 On the other side, it's just there's no we as 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:50.520 as consumers of the world around us. I think we 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:54.600 just need things to be more black and white, broad 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.640 stroke stories than is real. So we so we decide 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:02.760 that a certain celebrity is vapid or another one is 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:06.520 incredibly you know, dark and mysterious or whatever it is. 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:08.360 We write the stories about these people and they sort 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:11.480 of snowball, but the people themselves just aren't. Like there 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:16.080 are always multidimensional humans with everything going on, They're not 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:17.199 anything like that, you know. 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:22.439 Okay, to what degree do you personally know your hardcore. 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:26.040 Fans depends which ones. There's a few of them I 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:30.240 know really well. I mean like, we literally have a 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:33.400 fan who we just played some shows last week and 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:38.000 she went to her seventy third show. I think this 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:42.280 on this last run. She's seen every show we played 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:44.640 this year, including ones that weren't announced. You know, like, 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:50.080 I know her really well, and she's great, She's awesome. 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:54.200 And there's a handful of fans who come to so 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.200 many shows that I do know them really well. I 0:10:56.240 --> 0:11:00.800 suspect they actually distort my opinion, my perspect on what 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:04.600 the rest of the sort of megafandom is like. Because 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.400 no matter how insanely into a band you are, what 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:10.480 are the chances you're going to travel to see you know, 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:12.800 twenty twenty five shows in a year Like that's puts 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:16.280 you in a very very very small category, and the 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:19.760 people who really keep our career alive are much broader 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:22.680 set than that and yet still really really engage. So 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:26.920 and I think I know I know them by again 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:30.000 in broad strokes, you know, like I can promise you 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:32.480 like I do a lot of questions and answer at 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:34.760 our shows. I asked that the audience just I'm like, 0:11:34.800 --> 0:11:36.800 who's got a question? And we just do. We just 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:40.079 have discussions at the shows, and you get a pretty 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:44.520 good sense of how engaged and nerdy and arty our 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.400 fans are, you know, and that I just that I 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:49.520 love that, Like, couldn't be more thank Back to your 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:53.040 question about the videos, it's sort of like they they 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.719 filter for a self selecting group of very curious and 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:03.360 very sort of prone to wonder nerds, and those are 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:05.719 people I like hanging out like it's a it's a 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:06.240 good feeling. 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.679 Well, have you had any bad experiences with fans? I 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:13.040 was talking trying to get too close. 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:17.360 Uh, that has happened. It's been a while, but there 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:21.080 was there was a there was a time in Florida 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:23.760 when there was a there was some sort of scary 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:26.400 moments with it with somebody who had who had not 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:29.320 taken her meds and was out of the institution she 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:30.679 was supposed to be in and so forth. 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:32.160 So how did you handle that? 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:39.800 Uh? Distance, Like you just be really when you're in 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:42.840 that city, you're just really careful to watch keep your 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:48.000 wits about you. I don't know that there's much you 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:51.600 can do without without letting it affect your entire life, 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:55.800 you know. And I don't know, maybe I'm maybe maybe 0:12:55.840 --> 0:13:01.480 this is naive, but it feels to me like we're 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.959 a pretty small like we're a big deal to a 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:07.600 few people, but it's a it's a small category, you know, 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:11.640 Like I would, I think there are much bigger, bigger 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:13.640 fish out there for the craziest to go for. 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:16.240 Okay, but just talking about this woman in Florida, did 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:17.880 you have to get the authorities involved? 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:20.880 Came close? It didn't. I think this one did not. 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:22.840 I think we had. I can't remember. It was like 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:27.400 fifteen years ago now, but I do remember having to 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:31.080 like alert everybody at the at the show, and you know, 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:33.680 our tour manager had to be the hotel had to 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:35.480 be notified and all that kind of stuff. Because there 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.680 was there were some close calls and some threatening emails. 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:41.200 I guess it was at that point as opposed to 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:45.479 Dam's or whatever. But I honestly don't remember the specifics 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.360 I remember it being. I remember what I needed to 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:50.319 do was like, stay calm. 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:52.760 Are you recognized out in public? 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:56.920 Generally not much, or at least not You know, it 0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:59.520 happens every every once in a while, but it's not 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:05.320 like a certainly not a constant thing. Sometimes my kids 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:07.440 will be wearing okay go T shirts and and and 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:09.160 like somebody will be like, oh you like that dand 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:11.960 and not realize that I'm standing right there with them. 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:13.280 Okay, how old are your kids? 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:15.640 I have seven year old twins. 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:20.560 Okay, usually maybe they're a little young. The kids have 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:23.440 contempt for the father's work or the mother. 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:28.680 It could it may I'm sure we're headed there eventually. 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:31.040 We'll get there. Right now. My daughter says her plan 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.240 is to join my men and and perhaps replace me, 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:35.240 which I'm excited about. 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:38.560 So what have you learned having kids? 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:40.200 Everything? 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:40.840 I mean? 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:45.480 I I I love being the father, and I love 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:51.840 the the way that it has opened up my heart, 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:54.520 and I think I think a lot of people. The 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:56.760 thing I had always heard is that like you see 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:00.640 the world anew through the eyes of your kids, and 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:03.800 I had some of that experience, but it's more that 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:09.800 I like parts of myself that had ossified or I 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:13.600 hadn't that I thought I understood already, even my relationship 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:17.120 to love, like I'm a romantic who has chased love 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:19.680 my whole life long and thought I knew all my 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:21.480 relationships to it, And all of a sudden, you have 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:23.320 a kid, and it's just like God, there's a whole 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.080 new wing. There's a whole new wing to this castle, 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:30.280 and it's it's bigger and more amazing than anything I've 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:31.560 been in before. I love it. 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:43.120 To what degree you talked about not being enamored of 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:47.400 social media? To what degree do you direct and restrict 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:48.200 your children. 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.600 I'm very our kids. I mean, at this age they 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:56.160 have they don't have devices, will keep that that way 0:15:56.160 --> 0:15:59.800 for a long time, and they have very limited screen 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:08.400 time on any you know, for anything. And I I mean, 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:10.720 I hope social media is a different universe by the 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:14.120 time that they're you know, I don't know, but thirteen 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:16.440 fourteen years old, it's changed so much in the last 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:18.960 five years that I hope, I hope, I hope it 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:23.440 can change again. I just think about what I was 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:27.040 like as a teenager, and whether or not social media 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:28.800 would have like it would have ruined. It would have 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:30.960 been terrible for me. I would have been got out 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:34.880 and awful. And from everything I understand, it is basically 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:37.800 really horrible for teens now, so I will keep my 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:39.120 kids as far from it as I can. 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:41.160 Why would it have been awful for you? 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:49.920 Because I was experimenting with personalities? You know, because I 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:51.720 was like, because I think at that age, you're trying 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.880 to figure out who you are and taking you know, 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.640 big swings, and it's and I'm just glad that's not 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:01.320 that's not all on record somewhere, know, But also because 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.040 like the number when when I got home from high 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.240 school to what I thought about all night was that 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.720 girl right like if I if? And and what she 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:13.480 thought of me? And vice versa and what and that 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:15.240 other guy who liked that? And what are all the 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:17.360 stuff that you that goes through your head as a kid. 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:18.480 Uh? 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:21.840 If that if I could still be gaming that all 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:23.760 night long? I mean, you know, like I already spent 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:25.960 hours on the on the phone as a teenager. I 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.399 think if if that could have been a sort of 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:33.800 gamified and broadcast system of social hierarchy. Got it was 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:34.480 been off for me. 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:36.600 So what kind of kid were you? 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:40.960 I was a nerdy art kid. I I went, you know, like, 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:45.400 I spent all my time painting and with my headphones 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:50.040 on listening to rock and roll like it. I I 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:53.399 went to a school where there was like really heavy 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.600 on jocks, and and I got along well with him. 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:59.640 I wasn't like, I wasn't in the sort of classic 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:02.679 battle of the arty kids against the jocks. I just 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:05.040 like they liked different things than I did. We didn't. 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:07.040 We didn't even like the same girl. So it was fine. 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:09.480 Okay, let's start from the beginning. Where did you grow up? 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:11.200 I grew up in Washington, DC. 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.280 And were your parents involved with the government. 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.760 They were not. My dad is a well so sort 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:22.800 of tangentiy, I should say. My dad is a civil 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.000 engineer whose work was not funded by the government but 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:30.439 was used by the government law and my uh my 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:34.720 mom is a was in uh basically worked for a 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:39.640 consulting firm interpreting what the government's rules were at any 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:45.239 given time for pensions and benefits. So they both they 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:47.359 both had a lot of government overlap, but were not 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:48.399 employed by the government. 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.120 Okay, it would sound like to do her job, your 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:54.119 mother would be somewhat of a news junkie. Are you 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.040 a news junkie? 0:18:56.480 --> 0:19:01.879 Not currently, I am susceptible to it, but I a 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:07.720 special I found during the first Trump administration that I 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:10.560 I there's a certain chadenfreuda I was looking for in 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:13.280 the news every night, and and I just would go 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:19.600 diving deep down these holes looking for that, you know, 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.880 trying to find the moment that this that this would 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:26.600 all crack and and and sanity would would come bubbling 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:31.400 up through the the truth somewhere, and seeing one piece 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:33.600 of news after another, going God, this is ridiculous, Oh 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:36.640 my god, oh God, And like that that I realized 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:40.080 after a while it was I was not staying informed. 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:43.040 I was just I was. It was just rage scrolling, 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:43.479 you know. 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:47.879 Well, needless to say, we're in the second Trump administration. 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:49.720 What's your outlook today? 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:54.600 Not good? I you know, I'm I'm I'm obviously left 0:19:54.640 --> 0:20:00.560 of center politically, and and and I I I can 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:02.600 say just the same. I don't. I don't. I think 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:04.440 it's very hard to look at what's happening right now 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:08.760 and think there's any sanity to it. And I am 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:12.040 worried that that I'm just another one of the sort 0:20:12.040 --> 0:20:14.600 of head in the sand, Like it's so that the 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:20.000 flood the zone offense of of the of the Trump 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:25.439 administration and MAGA in general. The sort of like let's 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:28.560 just pour, you know, just just sort of set everything 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:31.800 on fire, and and if it's all burning at the 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:34.920 same time, nobody will know what to do has been 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:37.840 relatively effective with me because I'm just I'm overwhelmed. I'm 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:39.119 sort of like God, I don't know what to do 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:43.680 about any of it. It doesn't leave a great doesn't 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:45.960 leave me with a very positive outlook. So how do 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:55.000 you think it's going to play out? Well, I'm a 0:20:55.240 --> 0:21:01.359 I'm I I am a cynic and also like this 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:08.840 sort of a sort of hopeful, optimistic, romantic on the 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:12.840 to sort of counterbalance that I I guess my rational 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:16.840 side thinks it's only going to get worse. My the 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:19.679 other side of me is sort of like it just can't. 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:23.320 There has to be a breaking point. And I'm and 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:26.560 I don't know, I mean, like I I I wish 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:32.080 I could give. I wish I had anything other than 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:34.320 than songs to give, you know what I mean, Like 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:36.720 we have a song on her most recent album called 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:39.200 A Stone Only Rolls Downhill and the whole it's I 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:40.920 wish I could say this that I'll be all right, 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:44.240 Like if that's the song written specifically to my kids, 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:47.639 like I don't have any you can't lie to them, 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:50.440 But you also can't raise your kids going like, well, 0:21:50.520 --> 0:21:53.840 the world is going to hell in a hand basket 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:56.879 and you're going with it, you know, I don't know, 0:21:57.080 --> 0:21:57.720 what do you think? 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:01.520 Oh wow, Well, let me ask your question first. In 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:07.240 the sixties they fought or said both actually that music 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:10.720 could change the world. What power does music have in 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:11.719 today's world? 0:22:14.480 --> 0:22:15.920 I think you would be able to answer that way 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:17.720 better than I, because I think you look at music 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:21.879 across like in its in its aggregate form. I look 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:24.320 at music one song at a time, you know. But 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:27.719 like I will say that my life has been changed 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:32.879 by songs, and my relationship to the world changes dramatically 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:35.760 when those songs are on, when something changes my soul. 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:38.320 And I know that our fan like I get letters 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:41.760 all the time from you know. The most recent one 0:22:41.800 --> 0:22:47.000 that really moved me was a a an activist, an 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:51.280 Israeli activist in Palestine trying to bring the war to 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:54.800 an end, saying that she just needed like that that 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:59.320 after a day of hell all around her, she needed 0:22:59.320 --> 0:23:01.280 something to escape too, and our songs we're doing that 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:05.600 for her, and like that that those are the types 0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:10.960 of things that booy my soul. Because I'm I. I 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:15.520 can feel very navel gazing and and sort of self 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:19.800 serving to sit in my in my safe bubble writing songs. 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:23.600 But you know when we hear from people all the 0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:26.439 time for whom our songs are getting them through the 0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:28.240 death of a parent or the death of a child, 0:23:28.480 --> 0:23:32.000 or uh, you know, the realization that the world around 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:37.080 them is going to ship like them. I know these 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:41.120 individual stories are I don't know if they're if they 0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:45.280 have any if they move any globe, you know, huge 0:23:45.480 --> 0:23:48.199 cosmic needle. All I can do is do do do 0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:51.320 my part in my little world, and and I I 0:23:51.760 --> 0:23:53.439 know it has been done for me. I know it. 0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:58.080 You know I know that that music keeps me alive, 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:00.280 and I hope, I hope it's doing that for us. 0:24:00.920 --> 0:24:05.320 Let's say that I said financial considerations were taken off 0:24:05.359 --> 0:24:09.880 the table, but no one would ever hear your music. 0:24:10.240 --> 0:24:11.919 You could make it, but no one could hear it. 0:24:11.920 --> 0:24:12.800 Would you still make. 0:24:12.720 --> 0:24:20.360 It, probably not. I don't know. I mean I would, 0:24:20.800 --> 0:24:24.240 what I would make would change a lot like I 0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:27.040 think I would be. I would I'd spend a lot 0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:29.720 more time practicing piano just to play it, and a 0:24:29.720 --> 0:24:31.399 lot less time trying to figure out but how does 0:24:31.440 --> 0:24:35.359 this become a song? And I don't know, And my 0:24:35.480 --> 0:24:38.359 answer to that would have changed dramatically over the years, 0:24:38.840 --> 0:24:42.959 because I like as a as a kid. When I 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:46.760 first started making music, it was a compulsion to be 0:24:46.840 --> 0:24:50.399 able to like the thing. When I heard Rocket by 0:24:50.480 --> 0:24:53.800 Herbie Hancott, a certain scratch itch in my brain was 0:24:53.840 --> 0:24:56.760 scratched deep inside my skull in a place that nothing 0:24:56.800 --> 0:25:00.520 else had ever gotten to it. And I don't know. 0:25:00.680 --> 0:25:02.520 Ten years later than that, the first time I had 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:04.119 a four track sitting in front of me and I 0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:06.080 could start layering things up and go, oh my god, 0:25:06.080 --> 0:25:08.880 I think I just wrote a song that did something 0:25:08.920 --> 0:25:11.400 in my brain in a whole different way too. They're 0:25:11.440 --> 0:25:13.840 related but not the same, you know. And I spent 0:25:14.200 --> 0:25:19.080 I spent years just trying to find that thing, either 0:25:19.160 --> 0:25:21.880 with other musicians in the room or multi tracking something 0:25:21.920 --> 0:25:25.600 in a studio, whatever, trying to it. It's this other 0:25:25.680 --> 0:25:27.280 itch in my brain. I think I would have done 0:25:27.280 --> 0:25:30.520 that regardless of who was listening at this point in 0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:36.560 my life. I I make the songs for like I 0:25:36.600 --> 0:25:39.239 am the audio. I'm the only test audience. Like, if 0:25:39.240 --> 0:25:41.880 it's not moving me, there's no point in making it. 0:25:42.800 --> 0:25:47.280 But if there were, if there were no if there 0:25:47.280 --> 0:25:49.840 were no audience outside of that. Ever, again, I'm not 0:25:49.840 --> 0:25:52.240 sure it ever finished them. I'd probably be playing with 0:25:52.280 --> 0:25:53.959 them all the time, but I would I don't think 0:25:53.960 --> 0:25:55.520 it would ever goes to the part of where I 0:25:55.600 --> 0:25:58.600 go like, no, these lyrics aren't good enough. Try again. 0:25:59.240 --> 0:26:04.359 Okay, you have a band, long tenure, you have an audience. 0:26:04.840 --> 0:26:08.119 How important is it for you to have more people 0:26:08.200 --> 0:26:09.040 hear your music? 0:26:13.400 --> 0:26:17.879 It's a it's a it's a totally like what is it? 0:26:17.960 --> 0:26:19.720 What's the name of the thing? Or OBErs, it's a 0:26:19.840 --> 0:26:22.280 it's a snake eating its tail question? You know, like 0:26:22.840 --> 0:26:27.399 I it. I watch my kids, for instance, want to 0:26:27.520 --> 0:26:31.639 get stuff for uh the holidays, right, They're like, I 0:26:31.680 --> 0:26:32.639 want to get this, and I want to get that. 0:26:32.760 --> 0:26:34.560 I know, I know the things that will be fun 0:26:34.600 --> 0:26:36.320 for them to open versus the things that will be 0:26:36.320 --> 0:26:38.760 fun for them to have. I know how little each 0:26:38.760 --> 0:26:40.920 individual toil will matter in the course of a year 0:26:41.280 --> 0:26:44.600 or in the course of their lives. And it's I 0:26:45.080 --> 0:26:47.080 think that people look at when I look at my 0:26:47.119 --> 0:26:48.960 own career and when I look around the musicians I 0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:52.920 know an artist that I know in their careers, it's 0:26:52.920 --> 0:26:55.960 the same basic thing. There's this sort of compulsion towards 0:26:57.520 --> 0:27:03.520 towards UH can act with more people, you know, towards 0:27:03.520 --> 0:27:06.880 feedback from those people out there that it's like, oh, yes, 0:27:06.920 --> 0:27:10.240 this thing landed. You know that the thing I made 0:27:10.320 --> 0:27:14.480 mattered to somebody. But it's all relative, like ten more 0:27:14.520 --> 0:27:18.120 tomorrow is better than ten less tomorrow. But I don't 0:27:18.280 --> 0:27:21.480 But does it really matter? Like I don't actually know. 0:27:22.200 --> 0:27:24.760 I'm not there for these interactions. When somebody puts our 0:27:24.800 --> 0:27:27.479 song on somewhere, I'm not there to feel it. And 0:27:27.600 --> 0:27:29.480 I wouldn't know if ten more people did it tomorrow 0:27:29.560 --> 0:27:34.680 or less? Is this too abstract? Like I don't. I 0:27:34.840 --> 0:27:37.320 like the idea of continuing to do this. I like 0:27:37.359 --> 0:27:40.520 the feeling of continuing to do this, and and I 0:27:40.640 --> 0:27:42.800 need people to keep showing up at shows and keep 0:27:42.800 --> 0:27:45.080 streaming our songs and keep watching our videos and stuff 0:27:45.080 --> 0:27:48.560 for me for that to be an operational career. But 0:27:49.119 --> 0:27:51.880 it's not the abstraction of more and more and more 0:27:53.040 --> 0:27:55.399 is I'm aware of that as an abstraction. Does that 0:27:56.080 --> 0:28:02.800 answer the question absolutely? How are the economics fine? I mean, 0:28:02.840 --> 0:28:06.800 it's we entered the music industry right at the end, 0:28:07.280 --> 0:28:13.760 like just as CDs were dying, and we never had 0:28:14.440 --> 0:28:19.080 a time where where we got you know, got fat 0:28:19.240 --> 0:28:23.640 off of off of master side sales. You know, we 0:28:23.720 --> 0:28:27.399 we we didn't live in there of of of big, 0:28:27.480 --> 0:28:31.840 big hits. You know. There there was there was a 0:28:31.840 --> 0:28:38.080 lot more licensing. Like I I think that it was 0:28:38.120 --> 0:28:40.800 a lot easier to to to get from album to 0:28:40.880 --> 0:28:44.479 album without worrying about people paying their rent or their 0:28:44.520 --> 0:28:48.920 mortgage or whatever. When when licenses from TV shows and 0:28:48.960 --> 0:28:51.400 movies and stuff were significantly bigger than they are now 0:28:51.440 --> 0:28:53.920 and more frequent than they are now. And I gather 0:28:54.040 --> 0:28:57.520 that's not just our band aging, that's that's the industry 0:28:57.920 --> 0:29:01.000 as a whole. I mean, we we have this weird 0:29:01.040 --> 0:29:03.160 thing where we get to make these expensive videos because 0:29:03.200 --> 0:29:06.480 we find sponsors for them generally, and those that is 0:29:06.840 --> 0:29:09.080 this is such a weird little cul de sac off 0:29:09.120 --> 0:29:11.760 of the rest of the music industry and affects our 0:29:11.800 --> 0:29:13.760 finances so much that it's a little bit hard to 0:29:13.880 --> 0:29:19.960 know what are what are what our bottom line would 0:29:19.960 --> 0:29:23.560 look like without that. But you know, we tour profitably, 0:29:23.600 --> 0:29:26.520 We make a lot on merch Things are pretty good 0:29:26.520 --> 0:29:26.960 in general. 0:29:27.760 --> 0:29:30.680 So how was it financially during COVID during the shutdown? 0:29:32.320 --> 0:29:36.960 Uh, it we happened to be between albums. Then it 0:29:37.000 --> 0:29:38.520 was like a pretty good time for it to happen. 0:29:39.880 --> 0:29:43.000 My kids were eighteen months old when it started. I 0:29:43.040 --> 0:29:46.120 was not going to go touring with toddlers at home anyways. 0:29:47.160 --> 0:29:50.680 And uh, and my wife and I directed a film together. 0:29:50.720 --> 0:29:54.120 We directed a movie for Apple, and so I had 0:29:54.160 --> 0:29:57.520 sort of briefly pivoted out of out of the music industry. 0:29:57.600 --> 0:29:59.840 Right then, how did you get a deal to make 0:29:59.840 --> 0:30:00.920 it movie for Apple? 0:30:01.480 --> 0:30:03.520 Well, my band makes these videos. You might have heard 0:30:03.560 --> 0:30:08.640 it where so yeah, so for your for any listeners 0:30:08.680 --> 0:30:10.640 who don't already know this about our band, we're the 0:30:10.640 --> 0:30:17.920 band with the ridiculous videos and they were they are 0:30:17.920 --> 0:30:20.520 well respected in the film and ad communities. And so 0:30:21.240 --> 0:30:23.640 when we pitched a movie to Apple to co direct, 0:30:23.680 --> 0:30:26.920 my wife is a screenwriter and she's written some very wait. 0:30:26.760 --> 0:30:28.600 Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, let's start 0:30:28.600 --> 0:30:33.280 at a base level. You're at home, your wife says, 0:30:33.320 --> 0:30:37.720 I have an idea. There's a long process between creation 0:30:38.320 --> 0:30:42.120 and actually having a deal in making the movie was 0:30:42.360 --> 0:30:45.120 like a big plan. I mean, how did you get 0:30:45.240 --> 0:30:47.120 did you get an age? And how did this all 0:30:47.400 --> 0:30:47.840 come to be? 0:30:48.040 --> 0:30:50.400 When when my wife and I knew each other in 0:30:50.440 --> 0:30:53.080 high school years and years and years ago, and we 0:30:53.080 --> 0:30:54.760 didn't see each other for twenty years after that we 0:30:54.800 --> 0:30:57.040 both had totally separate lives and then ran into each 0:30:57.040 --> 0:30:59.520 other on Staten Island of all one of the places, 0:31:00.360 --> 0:31:05.280 and uh, and we're friends again. And when when it 0:31:05.440 --> 0:31:08.120 when it first got romantic? We I remember us, I 0:31:08.160 --> 0:31:09.960 mean we It was sort of a specific thing. It 0:31:10.000 --> 0:31:12.800 was like, you're in film and I'm in music. The 0:31:12.840 --> 0:31:16.520 more successful I am, especially these days, that the more 0:31:16.800 --> 0:31:18.920 the more that means being away from home. The more 0:31:18.920 --> 0:31:22.360 successful you are means being off on sets being away 0:31:22.360 --> 0:31:25.560 from home too. So it doesn't really seem like the 0:31:25.600 --> 0:31:28.000 type of relationship we want to build. Why don't we 0:31:28.000 --> 0:31:30.560 make stuff together? And we so we, Yeah, we decided 0:31:30.600 --> 0:31:34.080 we would we would try directing directing stuff together. Because 0:31:34.080 --> 0:31:36.160 I'm we that was sort of an obvious next stept 0:31:36.160 --> 0:31:39.040 for both of us, she as a as a narrative 0:31:39.040 --> 0:31:44.280 film writer and me as a video director, and so yeah, 0:31:44.320 --> 0:31:46.280 we we knew it would be a long game type 0:31:46.320 --> 0:31:51.120 of thing, because you don't get that that opportunity very often. 0:31:51.720 --> 0:31:54.720 And we started to develop some ideas just you know, 0:31:54.720 --> 0:31:57.120 when we'd be out on a hike or something like that. 0:31:57.120 --> 0:32:00.200 We just passed back and forth ideas. This one came 0:32:00.280 --> 0:32:06.040 up because of a she got the opportunity to to 0:32:06.120 --> 0:32:09.080 write a book about I'm sorry to write the script 0:32:09.200 --> 0:32:13.280 based on a book about the economics of the beanie 0:32:13.280 --> 0:32:18.200 baby bubble. And we were both teenagers when that happened 0:32:18.200 --> 0:32:20.640 and completely immune to its charms, Like we had that 0:32:20.800 --> 0:32:22.560 it was the type of thing that we were both like, 0:32:23.080 --> 0:32:26.600 who fucking want a small stuffed animal and think it 0:32:26.600 --> 0:32:29.120 was worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, And so we 0:32:29.160 --> 0:32:31.640 had like exactly the right distance from it to sort 0:32:31.640 --> 0:32:35.080 of look as scans at it and it and it 0:32:35.160 --> 0:32:37.800 turns out to be such a weird story of sort 0:32:37.800 --> 0:32:42.320 of what America is about that we just both kind 0:32:42.320 --> 0:32:44.560 of fell in love with it. She had written she 0:32:44.560 --> 0:32:46.480 had written one draft of the script already, and we 0:32:46.640 --> 0:32:49.560 just sort of we thought, okay, if this were an 0:32:49.560 --> 0:32:51.920 okay Go video. If this narrative were a video, how 0:32:51.960 --> 0:32:53.880 would we how would we do it wrong? And the 0:32:53.880 --> 0:32:56.120 way that okay Go always gets the music industry wrong, 0:32:56.160 --> 0:32:59.240 how would we do this movie wrong? And we pitched 0:32:59.240 --> 0:33:01.880 it to Zach Gallifacus, who is who would make the 0:33:01.880 --> 0:33:03.080 perfect tie Warner? 0:33:03.160 --> 0:33:05.640 Oh wait wait wait wait wait how did you know? 0:33:05.720 --> 0:33:07.840 How did you connect with Zach galifanaka? 0:33:08.000 --> 0:33:10.240 He was our he was our landlord. We were he 0:33:10.360 --> 0:33:13.640 we he We were renting an apartment that he owns 0:33:13.760 --> 0:33:16.920 in in uh in Venice, California. 0:33:17.160 --> 0:33:19.600 Just for the record, sideways, where do you live now? 0:33:20.440 --> 0:33:21.680 I live in Santa Barbara? Now? 0:33:21.880 --> 0:33:23.680 Okay, So you pitch it to Zach? 0:33:25.560 --> 0:33:29.760 He was into it and uh and so we took 0:33:29.840 --> 0:33:34.160 it to we we uh, we took it to various 0:33:34.280 --> 0:33:40.000 different I mean, Imagine Entertainment signed on pretty early to 0:33:40.080 --> 0:33:42.280 produce it. And and at that point. 0:33:42.240 --> 0:33:44.680 Wait wait wait wait who connected you with Imagine? 0:33:45.960 --> 0:33:48.720 My wife she'd written several scripts for Imagine at that point. Okay, 0:33:48.760 --> 0:33:54.200 she already know and uh And it was at Amazon 0:33:54.320 --> 0:34:01.000 for almost two years and eventually they were just on 0:34:01.040 --> 0:34:03.719 the fence about it for too long. And actually, I 0:34:03.720 --> 0:34:05.880 hope it's legal to say. At this point, Zach Zach 0:34:05.920 --> 0:34:09.560 got so upset about the business practices of Amazon that 0:34:09.640 --> 0:34:10.920 he was like, I'm not making this if it's an 0:34:10.920 --> 0:34:12.840 Amazon anymore. And that pushed them off the fence and 0:34:12.880 --> 0:34:15.279 we get it. And Apple was just starting their film 0:34:15.320 --> 0:34:16.640 division and we got to be one of the things 0:34:16.640 --> 0:34:17.560 they made. 0:34:17.880 --> 0:34:19.520 So are you happy with the result? 0:34:20.360 --> 0:34:22.680 I love that. Yeah, the film is great. Film is great. 0:34:22.800 --> 0:34:25.640 The process of making the film is less fun than 0:34:26.120 --> 0:34:31.600 I had hoped. It is deeply creative, but also more 0:34:32.080 --> 0:34:39.480 more management than it is. Uh muse chasing that makes sense. 0:34:40.360 --> 0:34:45.680 I longed to get back to, like the the chasing 0:34:45.880 --> 0:34:50.120 of the of the emotional part of it, that sitting 0:34:50.120 --> 0:34:53.759 down in a piano or a guitar. Uh and and 0:34:53.760 --> 0:34:58.120 and finding that moment where one plus one equals five hundred. 0:34:58.200 --> 0:35:09.520 You know, film is a collaborative art, which music is 0:35:09.520 --> 0:35:13.200 more about the individual. Was that where you notice a difference. 0:35:13.960 --> 0:35:17.239 Yes, But you know our videos are incredibly collaborative. We 0:35:17.320 --> 0:35:21.960 obviously the Okay Go videos are very you know, they 0:35:21.960 --> 0:35:24.759 can have giant crews sometimes that there's I think the 0:35:25.160 --> 0:35:28.279 love video, the one that is Grammy nominated right now 0:35:28.440 --> 0:35:31.240 is up. It was one hundred and thirty six people 0:35:31.239 --> 0:35:36.520 on the crew, and you know that's that's almost narrative 0:35:36.520 --> 0:35:40.320 film size, but it is a very different You're basically 0:35:40.960 --> 0:35:44.840 it's a sprint up to one three minute shot. A 0:35:44.960 --> 0:35:48.560 film is a you know, a forty day shoot, fifty 0:35:48.600 --> 0:35:52.080 day shoot. It's a you're it's your all your pre 0:35:52.120 --> 0:35:55.319 production sits in an office for several months, and and 0:35:55.560 --> 0:35:58.160 yes it is. It is a collaboration on a grant 0:35:58.239 --> 0:36:01.799 much bigger scale. I think more of it. I mean, 0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:04.439 it was a steep learning curve for me. I really 0:36:04.520 --> 0:36:06.440 enjoyed it, but there was a lot of it that 0:36:06.520 --> 0:36:09.440 it was that you're what you're doing is you're describing 0:36:09.440 --> 0:36:12.920 a vision, and people with even more experience than you 0:36:12.960 --> 0:36:15.879 will go make that vision. You know, like your your 0:36:16.280 --> 0:36:19.759 art department will now go produce the thing you have described. 0:36:20.000 --> 0:36:22.560 I'm used to actually describing the vision and then going 0:36:22.600 --> 0:36:24.280 and producing it myself. 0:36:24.600 --> 0:36:28.480 Okay, let's go back to the music side of it. Okay, 0:36:28.600 --> 0:36:31.920 go as a band. To what the degree is the 0:36:32.000 --> 0:36:35.480 creation collaborative. I'm not talking about the recording, I'm talking 0:36:35.480 --> 0:36:38.640 about the writing. To what degree is it really just you? 0:36:38.840 --> 0:36:40.520 Or to what degree is it collaborative. 0:36:41.600 --> 0:36:43.879 It's very collaborative. Tim the Basis and I have known 0:36:43.880 --> 0:36:48.799 each other since we were eleven years old, and I 0:36:48.800 --> 0:36:51.640 would say, I mean we both sort of write demos 0:36:51.680 --> 0:36:54.600 ourselves and then bring them to the other, but they 0:36:54.840 --> 0:36:58.400 invariably change a lot after that. I tend to be 0:36:58.480 --> 0:37:01.359 the pretty soul lyricist. The other guys will definitely weigh 0:37:01.360 --> 0:37:05.160 in on the lyrics, and I value their feedback a lot. 0:37:06.440 --> 0:37:08.799 I'm sure you've dealt with this with other musicians before, 0:37:08.800 --> 0:37:13.840 but it's a very like It's unlike any other business 0:37:13.960 --> 0:37:16.080 or or art form that I know of in terms 0:37:16.160 --> 0:37:22.160 of it's the balance of of sort of democratic decision 0:37:22.239 --> 0:37:30.600 making and and you know, autocratic decision making. Because there's 0:37:30.640 --> 0:37:34.000 this there's an illusion and sometimes it's the truth that 0:37:34.160 --> 0:37:37.200 it that it's more a family than it is a business. You're, you're, you're, 0:37:37.520 --> 0:37:41.680 you've got one foot in each camp, and so having 0:37:41.719 --> 0:37:46.840 everybody's blessing on something is not just a matter of 0:37:46.880 --> 0:37:50.320 decision making, it's also a matter of your own self 0:37:50.400 --> 0:37:56.040 feeling okay, Like it's it's steamrolling the people you've been 0:37:56.040 --> 0:37:58.320 in a band with for thirty years because you feel 0:37:58.320 --> 0:38:01.320 like you're right about something. Doesn't feel good. You would 0:38:01.360 --> 0:38:04.400 eat like it's not operable to be like I won 0:38:04.520 --> 0:38:06.160 this one good, you know what I mean? Like you 0:38:06.280 --> 0:38:09.800 eat it. So we've you we've sort of spent decades 0:38:09.840 --> 0:38:12.320 doing this in a way where we need each other's 0:38:13.800 --> 0:38:16.799 approval on things, but we also need to have you 0:38:16.840 --> 0:38:19.560 also need someone who's where, you know, like I'm where 0:38:19.560 --> 0:38:22.200 the buck stops generally, and so there are lots of 0:38:22.239 --> 0:38:23.880 times when I just have to make a decision and 0:38:23.920 --> 0:38:25.520 I don't feel like making it, but I just have to, 0:38:25.800 --> 0:38:25.960 you know. 0:38:26.719 --> 0:38:31.320 And how do you split up the publishing we have? 0:38:31.600 --> 0:38:36.280 We split up the publishing half goes to the people 0:38:36.280 --> 0:38:38.400 who wrote the song, and we try to break that 0:38:38.480 --> 0:38:42.200 down fairly, and the other half goes to the band, 0:38:42.480 --> 0:38:46.080 anyone who has participated in the entire promotion cycle for 0:38:46.160 --> 0:38:49.840 the album, because we figured that there's no value to 0:38:49.920 --> 0:38:52.239 those songs if they are if they haven't gotten a 0:38:52.280 --> 0:38:53.920 good lift off into the world. 0:38:55.360 --> 0:38:59.960 Okay, so what is your process? Are you writing when 0:39:00.120 --> 0:39:02.480 you know you have to record or want to record 0:39:02.520 --> 0:39:05.600 an album? Are you coming up with songs all the time? 0:39:05.880 --> 0:39:08.560 Are you waiting for inspiration? How does it work for you? 0:39:10.280 --> 0:39:14.000 Closest to the first one You've said, like, mostly I 0:39:14.480 --> 0:39:16.759 go into long periods of writing when it's like I, 0:39:17.960 --> 0:39:19.719 when I've checked off all the other stuff that has 0:39:19.760 --> 0:39:22.400 to be done. I like. The thing I love doing 0:39:22.440 --> 0:39:27.560 the most is sitting here, playing with sounds and trying 0:39:27.600 --> 0:39:30.920 to discover moments where you put two sounds together and 0:39:30.960 --> 0:39:33.120 out the other side comes in emotion, and that's that 0:39:33.200 --> 0:39:38.120 has never stopped being magical to me. I'm also so 0:39:38.280 --> 0:39:41.680 thrilled by the opportunity to go make this ridiculous film, 0:39:41.960 --> 0:39:44.480 right like, can we make this art project? Do I 0:39:44.520 --> 0:39:46.400 get to go play with robots in a train station 0:39:46.480 --> 0:39:49.680 in Budapest? That is like, I'll never say no to that, 0:39:49.760 --> 0:39:54.960 and I want that opportunity, So I will face that 0:39:55.840 --> 0:39:58.879 video until we get it made. And as long as 0:39:58.880 --> 0:40:00.600 we have things we sort of need to be doing, 0:40:00.719 --> 0:40:03.200 that's generally what I'm doing. And when we run out 0:40:03.239 --> 0:40:04.680 of those things, I'm like, good, now I get to 0:40:04.680 --> 0:40:08.560 write another album. And by then I'm generally so exhausted 0:40:08.680 --> 0:40:12.160 of working in large groups of people and and and 0:40:12.440 --> 0:40:14.880 chasing down these big logistics that I'm really excited to 0:40:14.880 --> 0:40:19.719 just sit home and write for months straight. When I 0:40:19.719 --> 0:40:22.200 was younger, I remember feeling a lot of pressure to 0:40:22.400 --> 0:40:24.120 write while we were on the road, to get to 0:40:24.160 --> 0:40:26.520 write faster than I do, or to always be writing. 0:40:26.600 --> 0:40:30.480 And I honestly I'm jealous of the of the musicians 0:40:30.480 --> 0:40:35.800 I know who keep themselves to a really militaristic schedule, 0:40:35.800 --> 0:40:38.359 who just like every day put in five or six 0:40:38.360 --> 0:40:41.400 hours or whatever it is. And every every year, I 0:40:42.120 --> 0:40:44.279 promise myself, I'm gonna I'm gonna develop that kind of 0:40:44.280 --> 0:40:46.640 habit that I have yet too, so we'll see. 0:40:46.920 --> 0:40:55.160 Okay, do you know when you write an eleven now, 0:40:56.480 --> 0:40:59.640 so you working, you know you've been doing it so 0:40:59.719 --> 0:41:02.279 long you're not going to write something that's complete shit. 0:41:03.239 --> 0:41:05.200 But every once in a while and you can't do 0:41:05.280 --> 0:41:07.440 it that off, you go, wait a second, this is great. 0:41:09.239 --> 0:41:12.239 Well to me, they all start with a hint of that, 0:41:13.560 --> 0:41:21.520 and it's more about not losing it right, Like, this 0:41:21.600 --> 0:41:24.239 is the model that operates in my brain, and I 0:41:24.239 --> 0:41:25.319 think it's true. 0:41:25.400 --> 0:41:27.120 Ish. 0:41:27.200 --> 0:41:29.480 I'm just like playing around with sounds, and for the 0:41:29.520 --> 0:41:31.759 most part, when you put two sounds together, you get 0:41:31.760 --> 0:41:33.440 another sound on the other side. Every once in a 0:41:33.480 --> 0:41:38.520 while you get an emotion like something happens, and that's 0:41:38.600 --> 0:41:42.920 unbelievable to get that to flow into another set of 0:41:42.960 --> 0:41:46.440 sounds that also have an emotion that and those two 0:41:46.480 --> 0:41:48.919 emotions counterbalance each other in such a way that there's 0:41:48.960 --> 0:41:54.239 some actual arc and feeling and spread and journey to 0:41:54.280 --> 0:41:56.759 it all that's even more rare. So you can get 0:41:57.239 --> 0:42:02.919 a wildly hooky or a wildly punchy or wildly evocative 0:42:03.640 --> 0:42:07.120 single chord progression or groove or whatever, and it just 0:42:07.120 --> 0:42:09.000 doesn't go anywhere. Like you can get thousands of those 0:42:09.040 --> 0:42:11.160 and they still don't turn into a song. And even 0:42:11.200 --> 0:42:14.920 once you have that arc of a song, how not 0:42:15.160 --> 0:42:21.279 to kill it by describing it lyrically? Like what are 0:42:21.320 --> 0:42:25.879 the actual things you're saying now? Now you're crossing over 0:42:26.040 --> 0:42:32.239 from the sort of murky space of magical emotions into 0:42:32.239 --> 0:42:35.080 the specific space of things you've actually said a poem, 0:42:35.080 --> 0:42:38.600 you're actually singing along with this, How not to get 0:42:38.600 --> 0:42:41.480 that to flatten it into just a description of the 0:42:41.520 --> 0:42:45.239 sad song you've just written, or of the enthusiastic song written, 0:42:45.320 --> 0:42:49.680 whatever it is. And so it's more like it's whittling 0:42:49.760 --> 0:42:51.759 down the whole time. You're going from this thing that 0:42:51.920 --> 0:42:54.719 is full of promise, and at every stage it has 0:42:54.760 --> 0:42:57.360 the opportunity to just turn back into a bunch of sounds, 0:42:57.640 --> 0:43:00.320 and it's so rare that everyone's every once in a 0:43:00.320 --> 0:43:01.560 while you get all the way to the end of 0:43:01.600 --> 0:43:04.120 it and it's stayed full of promise. 0:43:04.680 --> 0:43:08.120 Okay, there are some people have a bolt of inspiration 0:43:08.280 --> 0:43:11.719 write a song in fifteen minutes. It sounds like you 0:43:11.800 --> 0:43:14.160 build a song over a long period of time. 0:43:15.120 --> 0:43:18.000 Usually, Yeah, every once in a while, something will start 0:43:18.080 --> 0:43:21.919 lyrics first, and then maybe that'll like sort of drag 0:43:21.960 --> 0:43:26.160 along the song behind it, and that does happen faster 0:43:26.520 --> 0:43:29.640 and they're more succinct, and sometimes they're really good, But 0:43:29.760 --> 0:43:31.240 there's not usually how they write. 0:43:31.480 --> 0:43:35.000 Let's go back to the videos. You have a concept, 0:43:35.440 --> 0:43:39.919 you nail it down as much as possible, You get sponsors, 0:43:41.080 --> 0:43:44.880 You have a shoot those who are uninitiated. There's a 0:43:44.920 --> 0:43:48.680 lot of money involved. There's a lot of people and 0:43:48.800 --> 0:43:52.239 equipment involved. You have a set period of time to 0:43:52.360 --> 0:43:57.400 film the video. The nature of making a film is 0:43:57.480 --> 0:44:01.719 even with the best intentions, the best script, the best actors, 0:44:01.760 --> 0:44:06.680 the best directors, it can go sideways. It doesn't necessarily 0:44:06.920 --> 0:44:09.840 end up what you wanted to be. So have you 0:44:10.000 --> 0:44:13.560 had that experience with these videos where you're looking at 0:44:13.600 --> 0:44:17.080 the footage you have and say it's just not there, 0:44:17.400 --> 0:44:19.440 and what do you do when you have that feeling? 0:44:20.440 --> 0:44:25.040 Well, because our videos, like the reason we wound up 0:44:25.040 --> 0:44:29.120 making videos like this is because ages ago we set 0:44:29.200 --> 0:44:33.319 up a camera on a tripod in my backyard and 0:44:33.400 --> 0:44:40.560 filmed us doing a rehearsal of a ridiculous dance. It 0:44:40.640 --> 0:44:42.520 was sort of a thing we would do on stage 0:44:42.560 --> 0:44:45.160 to fuck with the hipsters. You know. It's like it 0:44:45.200 --> 0:44:48.200 was the era of the Strokes and everybody was shuffling 0:44:48.200 --> 0:44:51.160 their feet and smoking and it was and we just 0:44:51.239 --> 0:44:53.600 we wanted to we wanted we wanted to feel like 0:44:53.680 --> 0:44:55.640 cheap trick. We wanted to feel like Jon Jet. We 0:44:55.680 --> 0:44:59.680 wanted we wanted like, we wanted a smile in the room. 0:44:59.719 --> 0:45:03.399 So we would do this ridiculous boy band dance, taking 0:45:03.440 --> 0:45:05.719 the piss out of ourselves just to kind of to 0:45:06.239 --> 0:45:07.880 because it was the punkest thing we could do at 0:45:07.880 --> 0:45:16.879 the time. And a we taped us a rehearsal tape 0:45:16.880 --> 0:45:18.319 of that in my backyard and it went sort of 0:45:18.360 --> 0:45:23.640 proto viral before YouTube was ever a thing, right, And 0:45:24.400 --> 0:45:29.040 that taught us something about just being like, wait, there 0:45:29.080 --> 0:45:32.759 is this type of if we our instincts as a band. 0:45:32.760 --> 0:45:35.000 We're not like, how do we make a film? It 0:45:35.200 --> 0:45:37.040 was what do we do in front of a crowd 0:45:37.040 --> 0:45:39.319 of people to get them to smile, to get them 0:45:39.360 --> 0:45:41.239 to feel, to get them to emote, to get them 0:45:41.239 --> 0:45:44.760 to connect with us? And so our filmmaking has always 0:45:44.800 --> 0:45:48.520 been sort of a just a reflection of that, is 0:45:48.560 --> 0:45:51.080 sort of like, what what thing can we do that 0:45:51.120 --> 0:45:55.239 we can put a camera in front of and and 0:45:55.360 --> 0:45:58.600 bring people to And more and more over the years, 0:45:58.680 --> 0:46:03.280 I have found that it's basically that is the closest 0:46:03.320 --> 0:46:08.880 facsimile I can digitally make to what a concert feels like. 0:46:08.880 --> 0:46:11.279 Like when you're at a good show, there's just, you know, 0:46:12.200 --> 0:46:15.680 as I'm sure you know, people's you know, physically align 0:46:15.760 --> 0:46:18.480 with the singer, like you're actually your heartbeats actually line 0:46:18.560 --> 0:46:20.720 up with other people in the audience with the singer, 0:46:20.760 --> 0:46:23.200 and your saline levels all adjusted, and it's all this 0:46:23.360 --> 0:46:25.600 like crazy stuff that's happening sort of under the surface, 0:46:25.760 --> 0:46:28.040 and you feel it right like it's such It's why 0:46:28.080 --> 0:46:31.560 we're all drawn to those experiences. And that's not something 0:46:31.600 --> 0:46:33.480 that happens when you're looking at TikTok, you know what 0:46:33.520 --> 0:46:35.640 I mean, That's not something that happens when you're looking 0:46:35.680 --> 0:46:38.560 at this little screen, no matter how good the musical 0:46:38.600 --> 0:46:43.200 performance is. But the videos that we make do have 0:46:43.280 --> 0:46:45.319 this sort of sense of wonder to them, this kind 0:46:45.320 --> 0:46:50.120 of like this discovery, this magical feeling that is about 0:46:50.160 --> 0:46:53.000 the closest thing I can come to that that feeling 0:46:53.080 --> 0:46:57.960 on stage. And we've gotten there not through the standard 0:46:58.000 --> 0:47:01.239 process of filmmaking where you script something out and you 0:47:02.080 --> 0:47:04.560 plan it all in advance and then try to put 0:47:04.600 --> 0:47:06.680 together in the edit, but rather by coming up with 0:47:06.760 --> 0:47:10.279 these performances that we the band actually do that we 0:47:10.360 --> 0:47:12.879 can then film in basically one take usually like it's 0:47:12.920 --> 0:47:15.880 usually one take thing. Sometimes we're doing multiple takes, but 0:47:15.920 --> 0:47:18.440 it's still a single event or whatever it is. But 0:47:18.600 --> 0:47:20.799 it means that at the end of the shoot, we 0:47:20.880 --> 0:47:23.600 know we have it for the for the Love video 0:47:23.640 --> 0:47:27.640 that the Grammy nominated one right now. It that I 0:47:27.680 --> 0:47:29.799 didn't even I knew when we'd done the last take 0:47:29.840 --> 0:47:31.759 that we had it, And I didn't even watch it 0:47:31.840 --> 0:47:33.640 for several days after that because we didn't. We were 0:47:33.680 --> 0:47:35.800 at we're out of money, there's we couldn't do another 0:47:35.800 --> 0:47:39.120 take anyways. But I knew we'd gotten to the end, 0:47:39.239 --> 0:47:40.799 and I knew what it felt like to perform it, 0:47:40.920 --> 0:47:43.239 and so if the camera sees if like if it 0:47:43.239 --> 0:47:45.280 didn't look quite the same through the camera, it wouldn't 0:47:45.320 --> 0:47:46.680 really matter. The spirit was there. 0:47:46.800 --> 0:47:49.040 You know, how many takes were there and how many 0:47:49.120 --> 0:47:50.080 days was the shoot? 0:47:51.000 --> 0:47:54.880 Thirty nine takes? The official shoot like the you know 0:47:54.960 --> 0:47:58.600 in film world, the shoot starts when you when the lights, 0:47:58.719 --> 0:48:01.520 when when the expensive lighting package gets turned on. Basically 0:48:01.880 --> 0:48:04.000 that it was officially a three day shoot, but we 0:48:04.040 --> 0:48:06.560 were on the ground in Budapest for three weeks prepping that, 0:48:06.960 --> 0:48:09.920 and many months of prep you know, stateside before that. 0:48:11.400 --> 0:48:14.719 So and that was and there was a Sunday off, 0:48:14.760 --> 0:48:17.000 like I think our last day was a Monday or Tuesday, 0:48:17.239 --> 0:48:19.200 and there was a Sunday off right before that that 0:48:19.239 --> 0:48:22.120 we had to wasn't off anymore. We were running too 0:48:22.160 --> 0:48:23.880 far behind schedule and we had to buy an extra 0:48:23.920 --> 0:48:27.280 day on the ground. You know, like we we often 0:48:27.320 --> 0:48:29.960 have sponsors. We usually have sponsors, but we also pay 0:48:29.960 --> 0:48:33.040 for them. So like we're the clients so to speak. 0:48:33.120 --> 0:48:35.640 So when when things aren't going well enough and we 0:48:35.680 --> 0:48:37.600 know we need, like, well, just put in the extra 0:48:37.600 --> 0:48:39.400 money if we have to. It's it's much more important, 0:48:39.440 --> 0:48:42.359 Like a B plus video does nothing for us. You know, 0:48:43.160 --> 0:48:45.160 if we if we spent this much money on something 0:48:45.200 --> 0:48:48.480 that people didn't think was spectacular, it would be a 0:48:48.520 --> 0:48:53.160 real waste of money. So you know, it also puts uh, 0:48:53.480 --> 0:48:55.640 you did this is not quite the question you asked. 0:48:55.719 --> 0:48:59.600 But when I'm working with film people in the film world, 0:49:00.520 --> 0:49:03.799 it's a it's a real blessing to be doing such 0:49:03.800 --> 0:49:06.839 an absurd art project as one of our videos is 0:49:07.200 --> 0:49:11.759 because nobody gets into film because because they thought it 0:49:11.840 --> 0:49:14.000 was like, eh, an okay way to make a living, 0:49:14.080 --> 0:49:16.840 and they just wanted to put in the hours. Like 0:49:16.880 --> 0:49:20.000 everybody is is in love with the art, but the 0:49:20.040 --> 0:49:23.319 way you make a living is to make toothpaste commercials 0:49:23.400 --> 0:49:30.320 and you know, bitcoin exchange commercials or whatever. Like you know, people, 0:49:30.600 --> 0:49:34.359 most of the time, people are working on things they 0:49:34.360 --> 0:49:36.200 don't love, and most of the time they're working on 0:49:36.239 --> 0:49:38.879 a very strict schedule and never get to do never 0:49:38.880 --> 0:49:41.600 get to be very creative. And like in our videos, 0:49:42.040 --> 0:49:44.399 we don't usually have the same budgets as everyone else. 0:49:44.400 --> 0:49:48.520 We don't usually like you're not gonna get paid quite 0:49:48.520 --> 0:49:50.480 as much as you did on the Crest commercial, but 0:49:51.400 --> 0:49:54.319 you're gonna be really proud of the thing you made, Andre, 0:49:54.360 --> 0:49:56.440 and we really need you to be creative. And people 0:49:56.560 --> 0:50:01.520 usually usually really for the fences on them and and 0:50:01.680 --> 0:50:04.480 really want like it's the rare time on set when 0:50:04.480 --> 0:50:12.279 you're getting to make something where like h ah, where 0:50:12.400 --> 0:50:15.480 where the client so to speak, will go to the 0:50:15.520 --> 0:50:18.760 mat to make it perfect, you know, and so and 0:50:18.760 --> 0:50:21.279 and that is a that is an addictive feeling. It's 0:50:21.280 --> 0:50:24.600 something that like every filmmaker I've worked with, whether it 0:50:24.680 --> 0:50:29.279 is a grip or the guy cleaning off the dance 0:50:29.320 --> 0:50:32.759 floor that we are dancing on, it's super infectious. Like 0:50:32.960 --> 0:50:35.400 that feeling that this matters and you and then and 0:50:35.400 --> 0:50:37.000 and that you're going to be proud of it. It 0:50:37.040 --> 0:50:38.160 goes a long long way. 0:50:46.600 --> 0:50:48.680 So what was the budget for this clip. 0:50:49.960 --> 0:50:54.600 For the for the Love video? Yes, I am contractually 0:50:54.680 --> 0:50:56.080 not allowed to say, but it is high six. 0:50:55.920 --> 0:51:02.839 Figures okay, So as originally planned? Was the amount of 0:51:02.880 --> 0:51:07.760 money covered by sponsors? No? What percentage of the money 0:51:07.920 --> 0:51:12.440 was sponsors in the end in the beginning. 0:51:12.719 --> 0:51:16.799 Zero in the end ninety. 0:51:17.280 --> 0:51:19.320 Okay, how do you get the sponsors? 0:51:20.920 --> 0:51:28.040 Uh? We we make it. We have a lot of 0:51:28.719 --> 0:51:30.520 friends in the ad world. At the point we've been 0:51:30.520 --> 0:51:32.600 doing it for years and years. You know, they used 0:51:32.600 --> 0:51:34.480 to come to us all the time, right right, like 0:51:34.560 --> 0:51:38.359 when when when being viral on YouTube was the thing 0:51:38.560 --> 0:51:44.600 that was threatening terrestrial TV, we were a first call, 0:51:44.880 --> 0:51:47.040 you know. And and it's still the case people in 0:51:47.080 --> 0:51:49.719 the ad world when they when they have to pitch 0:51:49.800 --> 0:51:55.279 their deck to the client the mood board, there's an 0:51:55.280 --> 0:51:59.920 okay go video still on that mood board, you know, 0:52:00.040 --> 0:52:01.839 twenty percent of the time, fifty percent of the time, 0:52:01.920 --> 0:52:06.160 Like we're we are a touchstone for for those people 0:52:06.200 --> 0:52:08.280 in terms of like we wanted to have this feeling. 0:52:08.320 --> 0:52:11.680 We wanted to feel genuine we wanted to feel homemade, 0:52:11.719 --> 0:52:16.759 we wanted to feel inventive, we wanted to feel resourceful. 0:52:16.880 --> 0:52:21.880 And you know, I think what I to me, the 0:52:21.880 --> 0:52:25.000 thing is like when you're watching something that that feeling 0:52:25.200 --> 0:52:30.040 of a as a viewer, feeling the filmmakers on the 0:52:30.080 --> 0:52:31.600 other side of it, going like, oh I get what 0:52:31.640 --> 0:52:34.640 they put into this, and knowing having that relationshipstem It's 0:52:34.719 --> 0:52:37.680 very very similar to me as it is to listen 0:52:37.719 --> 0:52:40.280 to a singer, right Like, it's like that connection between 0:52:40.320 --> 0:52:43.520 you and them. That's not the case generally and narrative film, 0:52:43.600 --> 0:52:48.200 like when you're watching you know, the best of Scorsese's films. 0:52:48.400 --> 0:52:51.520 Hopefully you are in the you're in the scene, you're 0:52:51.560 --> 0:52:56.360 watching the Gangsters. You're not watching the filmmaker, right, but 0:52:56.520 --> 0:52:58.880 in an okay go video. The whole point is we 0:52:58.960 --> 0:53:04.399 never you're where there's no suspension of disbelief. You're never 0:53:04.480 --> 0:53:06.480 asked to leave, like we want you to see how 0:53:06.520 --> 0:53:08.400 it was made, and we want you to have that 0:53:08.440 --> 0:53:11.160 connection to us as we made it. And I think 0:53:11.200 --> 0:53:15.160 that's that is something that that brands in particular are 0:53:15.480 --> 0:53:18.600 really they want that they want you when you watch 0:53:18.680 --> 0:53:20.360 this to go like, I love this. I love that 0:53:20.440 --> 0:53:23.000 this was made for me by these people, and who 0:53:23.040 --> 0:53:24.560 are these people? And I want to know about this 0:53:24.920 --> 0:53:28.360 right like that that connection again to me, it feels 0:53:28.440 --> 0:53:30.560 just like music. It's sort of like when I hear ROBERTA. 0:53:30.600 --> 0:53:33.680 Flack singing do what you Gotta do, I'm like, I 0:53:33.680 --> 0:53:35.400 want to have dinner, Like I need to know the 0:53:35.440 --> 0:53:36.840 rest of the story. I want to I want to 0:53:36.920 --> 0:53:38.759 know how her heart was broken like this, I need 0:53:38.800 --> 0:53:40.800 to sing it to me again, like it's a personal 0:53:40.840 --> 0:53:43.120 connection between me and her all of a sudden, And 0:53:43.160 --> 0:53:47.200 that's how it feels with our videos, I hope, and 0:53:47.200 --> 0:53:50.640 and so getting sponsors on board is generally a matter 0:53:50.760 --> 0:53:54.760 of them. They're just looking for ways to connect with people, 0:53:54.840 --> 0:53:56.600 and all we have to do is sort of prove 0:53:56.640 --> 0:53:59.680 to them we're not here. We're not here to steal 0:53:59.680 --> 0:54:02.640 your money. We're like, we're here because we want to 0:54:02.640 --> 0:54:04.319 make this thing that connects with people. Do you want 0:54:04.320 --> 0:54:06.480 to connect with people? And generally if they believe that 0:54:06.520 --> 0:54:08.000 we will, they want to. 0:54:08.760 --> 0:54:12.960 Okay, you have the idea, you know what cost X? 0:54:14.239 --> 0:54:16.319 How do you find the sponsors? 0:54:16.360 --> 0:54:21.719 Literally, it has been different with every video we've done. 0:54:21.840 --> 0:54:24.840 I mean we we we do a lot of outreach. 0:54:24.880 --> 0:54:29.839 It almost never works like going going out to ad 0:54:29.840 --> 0:54:36.160 agencies or you know, the chief marketing officer of some brand. 0:54:36.800 --> 0:54:39.879 We have an almost zero percent hit rate of going 0:54:39.960 --> 0:54:42.239 I've got this great idea and you make the thing right. 0:54:42.680 --> 0:54:46.319 But they frequently come to me asking for me to 0:54:46.400 --> 0:54:49.040 direct a direct a TV commercial for them, and then 0:54:49.080 --> 0:54:50.799 I could go, well, I'd love to do that, or 0:54:50.840 --> 0:54:53.080 you could make the next Okay go video and that 0:54:53.160 --> 0:55:00.040 has often worked. There's there if if the if the 0:55:00.080 --> 0:55:04.000 production company we're working with already has lots of clients 0:55:05.480 --> 0:55:08.120 that they're making commercials. For as long as it comes 0:55:08.200 --> 0:55:10.360 from somebody they trust in the marketing world that this 0:55:10.480 --> 0:55:13.080 is a good marketing maneuver, then they might consider it. 0:55:13.320 --> 0:55:15.799 And so for this last one, it was it was 0:55:15.840 --> 0:55:18.800 the it was a combination of both of those Meta 0:55:18.840 --> 0:55:21.040 was working with. Are the producers who are making the 0:55:21.120 --> 0:55:24.880 video with us already worked with Meta on other projects 0:55:25.080 --> 0:55:27.040 and they were like, would you consider working on this? 0:55:27.120 --> 0:55:30.399 And that was a multi month process and they paid 0:55:30.440 --> 0:55:36.080 for about half of it, and uh and the the 0:55:36.120 --> 0:55:39.920 project Management Institute was had already worked with us on 0:55:40.000 --> 0:55:42.880 a different video and we were let and we were like, 0:55:43.040 --> 0:55:45.280 the next one's going to be bigger. We be interested 0:55:45.320 --> 0:55:47.680 in working. So it was like two existing relationships. 0:55:48.440 --> 0:55:52.680 Okay, what does a sponsor want for their money? 0:55:53.719 --> 0:55:57.160 Engagement attention? I mean they're like, and that's measured differently 0:55:57.239 --> 0:56:00.959 every time, and there's I think think that it used 0:56:00.960 --> 0:56:05.279 to be at least I remember it being much more 0:56:05.360 --> 0:56:09.680 metrics driven five ten years ago, when it was sort 0:56:09.680 --> 0:56:12.160 of like how many hits or how many shares or 0:56:12.160 --> 0:56:14.000 how many of this? And I think people have started 0:56:14.000 --> 0:56:24.400 to realize that it's so much more about a continuing 0:56:24.480 --> 0:56:27.880 relationship that like the sort of zeitgeisty feeling of something 0:56:27.960 --> 0:56:33.080 has more to do with being popping up on three 0:56:33.080 --> 0:56:36.520 different platforms than it does with you know this many 0:56:36.560 --> 0:56:42.440 YouTube hits that generally it is when we've gotten the 0:56:42.440 --> 0:56:45.440 feedback from the brand partners at the end, it's all 0:56:45.480 --> 0:56:48.480 about overall feeling they're getting and not look. 0:56:48.360 --> 0:56:50.080 At this number, look at this number, look at this number, 0:56:50.880 --> 0:56:55.120 and you've made a number of these. What satisfies a 0:56:55.560 --> 0:56:58.360 client a sponsor. They want to be able to be 0:56:58.480 --> 0:57:03.359 seen in the video, they want to presents by credit what. 0:57:03.040 --> 0:57:06.399 Yeah, ours generally have there's usually a thanks at the end, 0:57:06.440 --> 0:57:09.400 like there's just like this, you know thanks at the end. 0:57:09.440 --> 0:57:12.120 Sometimes there's something right at the beginning. A lot of 0:57:12.160 --> 0:57:15.560 times there's behind the scenes pieces that are very focused 0:57:15.680 --> 0:57:20.320 on on their relationship to it because it's all it's 0:57:20.360 --> 0:57:24.480 like if when you click on one of our videos, we 0:57:25.200 --> 0:57:27.080 hope you go down the rabbit hole, right like it's 0:57:27.120 --> 0:57:29.080 like how do they do this? And then you're and 0:57:29.120 --> 0:57:30.920 then you're in the universe of how it was all 0:57:30.960 --> 0:57:33.480 made and that stuff is you know a lot of 0:57:33.480 --> 0:57:37.200 ways more meaningful to the clients because they're like what 0:57:37.240 --> 0:57:41.200 they want is a a a a value connection with 0:57:41.240 --> 0:57:43.400 the people who are watching. It's not just a sort 0:57:43.440 --> 0:57:44.480 of impression, you know. 0:57:45.600 --> 0:57:49.880 So what's your view on directing commercials? 0:57:51.120 --> 0:57:54.600 I you know, I have done it before, it and 0:57:54.640 --> 0:57:57.160 it's a it can be a fun way to sort 0:57:57.160 --> 0:58:00.440 of practice a technique or learn a filmmaking thing. I'm 0:58:00.520 --> 0:58:04.280 less into it. I'd rather be writing in songs, you know. 0:58:05.040 --> 0:58:08.320 And right now, like commercial directing is a horrible isn't it. 0:58:08.320 --> 0:58:12.480 I mean it's just like, you know, the music industry, 0:58:12.680 --> 0:58:16.760 as you know, turned into something like a service industry 0:58:17.280 --> 0:58:20.440 in the last ten years, fifteen twenty years, and that 0:58:21.160 --> 0:58:23.600 is that has happened much more to directors in the 0:58:23.640 --> 0:58:28.160 last five ten years than they had thought was going 0:58:28.240 --> 0:58:30.400 to happen. I think, you know, like I think a 0:58:30.440 --> 0:58:36.200 lot was learned from the from the digital makeover of 0:58:36.320 --> 0:58:39.000 music from the films. I'd learned a lot from watching 0:58:39.080 --> 0:58:40.960 that happen, but there's a lot that was still a 0:58:40.960 --> 0:58:45.280 big shock. And watching my friends who are commercial directors 0:58:45.760 --> 0:58:49.320 struggle for work, it's like, I don't, you know, I 0:58:49.320 --> 0:58:52.360 don't have any great desire to be fighting tooth and 0:58:52.440 --> 0:58:54.040 nail to get to get a film job that I 0:58:54.040 --> 0:58:55.720 don't really want to do. In the first place, you know. 0:58:55.880 --> 0:58:58.000 But it is lucrative if you do the work. 0:58:59.320 --> 0:59:02.160 It has been it was in the past, it is 0:59:02.200 --> 0:59:04.400 getting less and less. So from what I understand, I mean, 0:59:04.440 --> 0:59:09.840 I'm not Look, I'm not a a a student of 0:59:09.880 --> 0:59:12.280 any of these industries like you are, so I don't 0:59:12.560 --> 0:59:14.440 want to stick my foot in my mouth. But it 0:59:15.040 --> 0:59:18.840 used to be that that, you know, multiple day shoots 0:59:18.880 --> 0:59:21.960 with big budgets were pretty common for commercial shoots. That's 0:59:22.040 --> 0:59:25.280 that is the margins have come way down and there's 0:59:25.440 --> 0:59:28.520 and they know now that a lot of what they 0:59:28.560 --> 0:59:32.040 have to produce is all this ancillary stuff for social media. 0:59:32.400 --> 0:59:34.800 So so what you have to make is, you know, 0:59:34.800 --> 0:59:37.240 there's ten times more stuff you have to make, and 0:59:38.080 --> 0:59:39.160 the budgets have come out. 0:59:39.920 --> 0:59:42.800 So to what degree do you feel pressure to top 0:59:42.880 --> 0:59:44.360 yourself with the next video? 0:59:48.400 --> 0:59:53.320 The The true answer to that is very complicated because 0:59:53.800 --> 0:59:59.120 I'm aware that they're the like that it's an attention economy, 0:59:59.320 --> 1:00:03.640 you know. But you would never write a song to 1:00:03.680 --> 1:00:06.520 try to top the last song, you know, And it's 1:00:06.560 --> 1:00:08.000 sort of the same with the videos. It's like, what 1:00:08.040 --> 1:00:10.560 I want to do is make is make the thing 1:00:10.760 --> 1:00:12.840 that best serves this idea. I want to make the 1:00:12.840 --> 1:00:16.760 thing that's most evocative, that's most emotional, that is most 1:00:16.760 --> 1:00:19.160 connected to me, and that I will be proudest of 1:00:19.240 --> 1:00:24.560 for the longest, And those aren't always It's not a 1:00:24.800 --> 1:00:26.640 I mean sort of back to your earlier question about 1:00:26.680 --> 1:00:32.840 like always finding new fans, like you're not You're not 1:00:32.920 --> 1:00:35.880 always trying to grow things. You just want to make 1:00:35.920 --> 1:00:41.520 it the best you can, you know. So I don't know, 1:00:41.560 --> 1:00:43.360 I feel like I've sort of dodged your question, but 1:00:43.440 --> 1:00:45.600 that well, let me you know, I no, no. 1:00:45.560 --> 1:00:47.640 I don't think you are. But let me ask you this, 1:00:48.720 --> 1:00:52.160 are you thinking of video ideas all the time or 1:00:52.200 --> 1:00:53.840 after you write music? 1:00:59.000 --> 1:01:01.600 I have a have a sort of running list of 1:01:01.640 --> 1:01:03.520 things that I think would be fun to try, and 1:01:03.560 --> 1:01:07.880 they line up with songs I have written generally. Sometimes 1:01:07.920 --> 1:01:11.800 every once in a while, a song something lyrically will 1:01:11.800 --> 1:01:16.320 actually inspire the video idea itself, but usually it's it 1:01:16.400 --> 1:01:20.200 is a Venn diagram where it's sort of like I 1:01:21.680 --> 1:01:24.840 remain surprised that these two things really line up so well, 1:01:24.840 --> 1:01:27.280 but I shouldn't be. They just they both came from this, 1:01:27.520 --> 1:01:30.160 like it's the same part of me. It's the same 1:01:30.200 --> 1:01:34.360 reflection of what I think is exciting and full of 1:01:34.400 --> 1:01:36.480 wonder in the world. Like of course they line up. 1:01:36.560 --> 1:01:38.960 You know, let's go back to the beginning. You say 1:01:38.960 --> 1:01:41.959 you grew up in Washington and DC. Most people don't 1:01:42.000 --> 1:01:44.240 grow up in the district. They grew up in suburbs, 1:01:44.280 --> 1:01:47.760 but some do. Where did you literally live the district 1:01:47.760 --> 1:01:50.280 in the northwest side of the district. I grew up 1:01:51.040 --> 1:01:54.360 just south of Chevy Chase Circle off of Connecticut Avenue, 1:01:54.880 --> 1:01:58.320 and it was I really lucked out in terms of 1:01:59.840 --> 1:02:02.600 the timing I was. I was born in seventy five 1:02:02.800 --> 1:02:05.560 and so nineteen ninety I went into high school and 1:02:05.600 --> 1:02:07.840 it was like Fugazi was just coming out with their 1:02:07.880 --> 1:02:14.040 second album, and I was treated to the like one 1:02:14.040 --> 1:02:19.800 of the greatest DIY indie punk scenes that has ever existed. 1:02:19.840 --> 1:02:22.520 Like that the discord that heyday at the Discord of 1:02:22.600 --> 1:02:25.720 Discord Records or what was did a lot for me. 1:02:25.760 --> 1:02:28.520 Fugazi and Shudder to Think and Jawbox and all these 1:02:28.560 --> 1:02:33.120 incredible bands and most of all the feeling that anybody 1:02:33.120 --> 1:02:36.040 could just do this right. There was a record label 1:02:36.040 --> 1:02:39.760 there called called Simple Machines, and they put out a 1:02:43.120 --> 1:02:46.200 pamphlet I think it was a dollar fifty and it 1:02:46.240 --> 1:02:47.720 was how to make your own seven inch and it 1:02:47.800 --> 1:02:49.840 was like, here are the three pressing plants that still 1:02:49.880 --> 1:02:51.840 exist in the United States. Here are their phone numbers. 1:02:51.640 --> 1:02:54.520 Here's you asked for when you call, you know, here's 1:02:54.560 --> 1:02:57.680 what here's here's what your budget will actually look like. 1:02:57.760 --> 1:02:59.680 So you like, don't think you can do this for 1:02:59.680 --> 1:03:01.439 a less And I think it was seven hundred fifty 1:03:01.440 --> 1:03:03.480 bucks or something like that. It's like, for seven hundred 1:03:03.480 --> 1:03:06.720 and fifty bucks, you can make a pressing of five 1:03:06.760 --> 1:03:10.280 hundred records. And and that was and I and I 1:03:10.400 --> 1:03:12.680 ordered that pamphlet for a dollar fifty and I started 1:03:12.720 --> 1:03:15.680 a quote unquote record label for my you know, my 1:03:15.720 --> 1:03:18.880 friend's bands. And that was normal. That was like, that's 1:03:18.920 --> 1:03:24.200 what That's what the scene in d C said. Was 1:03:24.240 --> 1:03:28.040 normal to a fifteen year you know. And honestly it's why, like, 1:03:28.480 --> 1:03:30.200 you know, our other the other thing we're up for 1:03:30.240 --> 1:03:32.480 a Grammy for this year is our the album cover. 1:03:32.600 --> 1:03:35.439 The packaging for our album, which is this like it's 1:03:35.440 --> 1:03:38.440 a three D sculpture that pops out of the album 1:03:38.440 --> 1:03:40.680 when you open it up. And my love of that, 1:03:41.120 --> 1:03:45.360 of the packaging and of the sort of the opportunities 1:03:45.440 --> 1:03:48.439 around the art that you make all come from that era, 1:03:48.560 --> 1:03:52.080 that DC era. That it was sort of like the 1:03:52.440 --> 1:03:58.240 that making music was a community activity, right, like that 1:03:58.320 --> 1:04:01.760 the shows were a community activity. That were pasting your 1:04:01.760 --> 1:04:04.640 posters on the mailbox was a community activity. It was 1:04:04.640 --> 1:04:08.200 sort of like joining this community to make the because 1:04:08.240 --> 1:04:10.120 you get to make the stuff, you know. It was 1:04:10.160 --> 1:04:13.640 like just it was like there were endless opportunities for 1:04:14.160 --> 1:04:17.960 making things. And I love that that chase of the 1:04:18.280 --> 1:04:19.720 of the muse. 1:04:20.400 --> 1:04:22.400 Did you go to public school or private school? 1:04:22.800 --> 1:04:23.560 Private school? 1:04:24.560 --> 1:04:27.120 Was it one of the famous DC private schools? 1:04:27.560 --> 1:04:30.560 Which one was Saint Albans is pretty famous. I mean 1:04:30.560 --> 1:04:32.440 it's not I think these days did well as the 1:04:32.440 --> 1:04:37.080 one everyone knows about pop. Yeah, it was a it 1:04:37.120 --> 1:04:41.200 was a I had an incredible education, and it was 1:04:41.280 --> 1:04:47.440 that I raged against the conservative culture of that school. 1:04:48.320 --> 1:04:50.520 But but I but it was a great education. 1:04:51.000 --> 1:04:52.200 How many kids in the family. 1:04:53.200 --> 1:04:53.480 Two? 1:04:54.280 --> 1:04:55.160 Who's the other one? 1:04:55.640 --> 1:04:58.200 My older sister and she h four years older than me. 1:04:58.280 --> 1:05:00.400 She and she made several of our videos. She was 1:05:00.400 --> 1:05:04.800 a professional ballroom dancer. Her name is Tricia and and 1:05:04.880 --> 1:05:07.920 she after the Treadmill video which we filmed at her house, 1:05:08.000 --> 1:05:12.120 she she switched into filmmaking herself, and she's now a 1:05:12.200 --> 1:05:13.320 successful film director. 1:05:14.560 --> 1:05:16.960 How did she get into ballroom dancing? 1:05:18.320 --> 1:05:20.600 She I think she's a lot like me. She just 1:05:20.680 --> 1:05:25.320 it was the thing that made her, that made the 1:05:25.360 --> 1:05:27.960 world around her more magical. She she was she was 1:05:28.240 --> 1:05:31.600 studying it for fun in college and there was a 1:05:31.680 --> 1:05:35.280 job open at the local teaching studio and she started 1:05:35.280 --> 1:05:36.920 as a sort of intern there and the next thing, 1:05:36.920 --> 1:05:39.160 you know, she was she was competing on the circuit 1:05:39.240 --> 1:05:44.240 and she was. She she built. She managed to get 1:05:44.320 --> 1:05:46.640 enough students that she could build a small ballroom in 1:05:46.680 --> 1:05:49.200 her backyard in Florida, where she had moved. And it 1:05:49.280 --> 1:05:52.720 was a that's some hell of a way to keep 1:05:52.800 --> 1:05:53.640 your art alive, you know. 1:05:54.320 --> 1:05:57.320 Okay, So you go to school. Do you play sports 1:05:57.320 --> 1:05:57.640 at all? 1:05:59.200 --> 1:06:02.160 I did a little bit. I wasn't. I wasn't very 1:06:02.200 --> 1:06:05.880 good at any of them. And I'm and but it 1:06:05.920 --> 1:06:07.120 was a requirement, so I did. 1:06:08.120 --> 1:06:12.000 And what about friends? You have a lot of friends? 1:06:12.040 --> 1:06:13.680 You're alone or what? What were you like? 1:06:13.760 --> 1:06:15.560 I was a pretty social kid. I had a lot 1:06:15.560 --> 1:06:18.040 of I mean, there was a small group of kids 1:06:18.040 --> 1:06:20.880 at my school who were who were sort of the 1:06:22.520 --> 1:06:24.480 punky outsiders. I mean, you know, you know, the band 1:06:24.440 --> 1:06:28.200 of the Walkman. They were all the great ahead of 1:06:28.240 --> 1:06:30.200 me and the singers a couple of guys behind me, 1:06:30.240 --> 1:06:33.960 and I mean, and there were up there was a 1:06:34.160 --> 1:06:37.880 there's a you know, five percent of each year was 1:06:37.520 --> 1:06:40.520 what was kids like me and there but there was 1:06:40.560 --> 1:06:45.040 that was enough kids to for it to be a scene. 1:06:45.080 --> 1:06:47.640 And no, it was weird. It's like we didn't we 1:06:47.640 --> 1:06:49.440 weren't at odds with the rest of the school. It 1:06:49.480 --> 1:06:56.920 wasn't like the the combative cliche I see in movies 1:06:56.960 --> 1:07:00.440 about about, you know, high school experiences. We were just 1:07:00.560 --> 1:07:07.320 we had our own thing. We didn't care about those kids. 1:07:10.360 --> 1:07:13.240 Okay, what degree did you have pressure from your parents 1:07:13.280 --> 1:07:14.400 to do well in school? 1:07:15.560 --> 1:07:21.240 I self pressured. They my parents, I think we're smart 1:07:21.280 --> 1:07:24.120 to let me rage against school when I wanted to 1:07:24.120 --> 1:07:26.480 have blue hair. They're like not going to try to 1:07:26.480 --> 1:07:29.080 stop me. You know, they let me. They let me 1:07:29.120 --> 1:07:34.240 try to shock enrage my my conservative teachers instead of them. 1:07:34.680 --> 1:07:37.200 So I was pretty much a straight a student. And 1:07:37.440 --> 1:07:39.000 you know, I went to school at Brown after like 1:07:39.000 --> 1:07:40.520 I went to you know, an ivy League school, and 1:07:40.560 --> 1:07:44.600 I was always I was fairly pragmatic about this, Like 1:07:44.640 --> 1:07:47.160 I knew I wanted to be that all I cared 1:07:47.160 --> 1:07:50.840 about was art, but I also knew that that you don't. 1:07:50.880 --> 1:07:54.919 Really it's not very very few people get to live 1:07:54.960 --> 1:07:56.760 their life making art. And so when I got out 1:07:56.800 --> 1:07:59.120 of school, like during high school, I thought of myself 1:07:59.120 --> 1:08:01.320 more as a visual artist. During college it switched to 1:08:01.440 --> 1:08:04.360 music more. You know, in high school, I was putting out, 1:08:04.440 --> 1:08:06.400 like I said, records for my friend's bands, but that 1:08:06.480 --> 1:08:08.560 was much more of a kind of like social hobby 1:08:08.560 --> 1:08:12.160 than it was my my calling. And I went to 1:08:12.240 --> 1:08:15.720 I got to college and the the academic art program 1:08:16.400 --> 1:08:19.400 was going over stuff that I had already learned about. 1:08:19.479 --> 1:08:21.840 It was it was sort of like abstract art and 1:08:22.320 --> 1:08:24.600 was blowing the minds of my my peers. And I 1:08:24.600 --> 1:08:27.559 felt like I didn't know this ship and and there 1:08:27.560 --> 1:08:30.160 was a sort of pretense of I didn't like that 1:08:30.240 --> 1:08:34.960 it was all about the the it was about the 1:08:36.120 --> 1:08:38.519 essay that you write to go along with your piece, 1:08:38.640 --> 1:08:40.960 not the piece itself, and what and and I fell 1:08:41.000 --> 1:08:44.880 in whereas music that there, uh, there was an electronic 1:08:44.960 --> 1:08:47.920 music studio there with incredible equipment, and I didn't know 1:08:47.960 --> 1:08:50.600 how to use it. And I could go into this 1:08:50.720 --> 1:08:57.439 place and the actual experiential uplift I got from like 1:08:57.479 --> 1:08:59.759 I go in there and find magic, and that was incredible, 1:08:59.760 --> 1:09:01.439 Like that was just addictive to me to go into. 1:09:01.600 --> 1:09:04.920 I would spend hours and hours and hours, and by 1:09:05.040 --> 1:09:08.120 by my sophomore year, I was the I had gotten 1:09:08.120 --> 1:09:10.120 the role. I had gotten the position of the ta 1:09:10.160 --> 1:09:12.559 who got to schedule the hours in the music studio. 1:09:13.000 --> 1:09:15.960 So then any any all the two am to eight 1:09:16.000 --> 1:09:18.559 am hours that weren't being used, I would block off 1:09:18.560 --> 1:09:20.240 for myself and I would just go in there every 1:09:20.320 --> 1:09:22.640 night and learn how to record music, learn how to 1:09:22.640 --> 1:09:25.200 write music, learn how to make music. And by the 1:09:25.200 --> 1:09:27.080 time I came out of college, that's what I cared. 1:09:27.200 --> 1:09:30.599 I mean, that was my calling. And so my years 1:09:30.680 --> 1:09:35.080 right after college I worked as a radio engineer at 1:09:35.200 --> 1:09:37.559 NPR one day a week and the other four days 1:09:37.640 --> 1:09:42.560 I was a photoshop retoucher for a for an ad agency. 1:09:43.080 --> 1:09:45.320 All of this in Chicago, where I had moved to 1:09:45.360 --> 1:09:48.920 rejoin my old friend Tim Basis of Okay Goo, who 1:09:49.240 --> 1:09:52.120 I had met at summer camp ten years prior. 1:09:53.080 --> 1:09:57.879 Okay You talk about buying the pamphlip making the records, 1:09:58.120 --> 1:10:00.479 When did you start playing an instr of it. 1:10:01.720 --> 1:10:03.559 In high school. I mean I played violin as a kid. 1:10:03.560 --> 1:10:05.479 I was terrible at it, and in high school I 1:10:05.520 --> 1:10:07.400 played guitar a little bit. I was bad at it 1:10:07.439 --> 1:10:12.080 then too. I didn't even when Okko started, I was 1:10:12.120 --> 1:10:14.680 it was it was, man, I was. It took me 1:10:14.720 --> 1:10:16.559 a lot of a lot of practice to be able 1:10:16.560 --> 1:10:18.000 to sing any of our songs and play them at 1:10:18.000 --> 1:10:23.400 the same time, you know. The I fell in love 1:10:23.439 --> 1:10:26.840 with playing instruments in college, but I of course was 1:10:26.880 --> 1:10:31.240 too impatient to spend the time really necessary for them. 1:10:32.400 --> 1:10:38.160 And it was the years of touring that actually taught 1:10:38.160 --> 1:10:39.200 me on a plan, you know. 1:10:39.880 --> 1:10:43.200 Okay, so when you were in high school, you were 1:10:43.760 --> 1:10:47.080 coordinating making records for other groups or did you have 1:10:47.160 --> 1:10:48.120 a group yourself. 1:10:48.840 --> 1:10:50.680 I had a group myself, but we were terrible and 1:10:50.720 --> 1:10:52.599 we were I only put one song on one thing. 1:10:52.640 --> 1:10:54.040 Mostly it was other groups. 1:10:54.520 --> 1:10:58.439 And did that band ever play outside the basement once? 1:10:58.960 --> 1:11:01.880 Maybe twice, you know, in our own school gym, like 1:11:01.920 --> 1:11:05.080 not not, But you know, the other the other band 1:11:05.080 --> 1:11:07.000 that night was the band it with the same kids 1:11:07.000 --> 1:11:09.559 that wound up being first Jonathan fire Eater and then 1:11:09.560 --> 1:11:10.920 eventually the Walkman. 1:11:11.080 --> 1:11:13.639 You know, So why do you end up going to Brown. 1:11:17.479 --> 1:11:23.840 I it was the I knew I wanted to. I 1:11:23.880 --> 1:11:26.240 knew I valued my good education. I knew I liked 1:11:26.280 --> 1:11:30.280 the feeling of my brain being pushed by by my 1:11:30.400 --> 1:11:33.880 superiors in a good way. But I also knew that 1:11:34.080 --> 1:11:36.720 school was for me. Was not going to be a 1:11:36.880 --> 1:11:38.680 trade school. I was not going there to learn to 1:11:38.720 --> 1:11:40.759 be a computer scientist or to learn to be a doctor. 1:11:40.800 --> 1:11:42.439 I was going there to learn to grow up, you know. 1:11:43.080 --> 1:11:47.200 And this was the one that the good school, where 1:11:47.200 --> 1:11:49.479 the other kids that were there seemed like they were 1:11:49.520 --> 1:11:53.640 comfortable in their own skin and making and and and 1:11:53.760 --> 1:11:56.840 learning to make decisions as opposed to learning to game 1:11:56.880 --> 1:11:57.840 the system. You know. 1:11:58.280 --> 1:12:02.519 Okay, so you're at Brown. Do you form a band 1:12:02.560 --> 1:12:03.120 at Brown? 1:12:03.760 --> 1:12:09.800 And did? Yeah? Several? But yeah I had. I had 1:12:09.800 --> 1:12:12.080 a sort of punky band my first two years, and 1:12:12.120 --> 1:12:14.320 a sort of electronic band my second to you, two 1:12:14.320 --> 1:12:15.960 different electronic bands my second to you. 1:12:16.760 --> 1:12:19.720 And did they play out of the practice room? Yeah? 1:12:19.760 --> 1:12:21.640 We played a lot. We had jos. 1:12:21.680 --> 1:12:23.920 Really, so you had gigs? Where were these gigs? 1:12:25.240 --> 1:12:27.320 There were? Providence was pretty good at the time for 1:12:27.360 --> 1:12:30.639 that stuff, because you know it Risdy's right there. So 1:12:30.640 --> 1:12:32.599 so we played a lot of club Babyhead, and there's 1:12:32.600 --> 1:12:37.400 a there's a club on the Brown campus called UH 1:12:37.600 --> 1:12:40.080 called the Underground to believe it's called there was you know, 1:12:40.160 --> 1:12:42.519 loop Os. And in Providence we used to get get 1:12:42.520 --> 1:12:46.080 gigs opening for people. I remember opening for like Karen 1:12:46.120 --> 1:12:50.240 Black and and UH. I remember opening for Blonde Redhead, 1:12:50.600 --> 1:12:53.000 you know at Brown like we we did we did 1:12:53.000 --> 1:12:57.000 pretty well and and that and man, they're like the 1:12:57.080 --> 1:13:02.200 that talk about getting into the sort of the art 1:13:02.240 --> 1:13:06.479 project side of it. I remember learning about screen screen 1:13:06.479 --> 1:13:10.080 printing while I was there from from Risdy students and 1:13:10.080 --> 1:13:13.360 and just like that started my love affair with with 1:13:13.760 --> 1:13:17.360 design for the band. Like that that you could actually 1:13:19.720 --> 1:13:23.840 screenprint your own posters, like and make them a thing 1:13:23.880 --> 1:13:27.559 of beauty was what And it was like so thrilling 1:13:27.600 --> 1:13:29.679 to me. It was not, you know, it didn't feel 1:13:29.680 --> 1:13:36.160 like the necessary marketing. It felt like the life value 1:13:36.240 --> 1:13:39.320 add that now I get to I get like that 1:13:39.439 --> 1:13:42.000 part of the part of going to do this show 1:13:42.080 --> 1:13:46.000 next week is going to make posters this week, you know. 1:13:47.280 --> 1:13:50.400 And that that carried on into our Chicago days. We 1:13:50.400 --> 1:13:53.160 did a lot of screen printing into Chicago and urged 1:13:53.880 --> 1:13:58.080 okay Go's earliest UH fan base in Chicago is definitely 1:13:58.080 --> 1:14:03.840 because of our absurdly overprinted for color you know, screen 1:14:03.840 --> 1:14:06.080 prints that were all over Chicago in the late nineties. 1:14:07.320 --> 1:14:11.400 Okay, you graduate from Brown, you moved to Chicago. What's 1:14:11.479 --> 1:14:14.160 the dream? 1:14:17.720 --> 1:14:23.960 The dream was to continue to be surprised and thrilled 1:14:24.040 --> 1:14:31.200 by make an art. Like I was rational enough to 1:14:31.320 --> 1:14:37.360 know how unlikely a job as a rock star is, right, 1:14:37.760 --> 1:14:45.080 but irrational and hope and delusion driven enough to see 1:14:45.160 --> 1:14:48.720 all these converging things in the world around me and 1:14:48.720 --> 1:14:50.639 and think there's a way to make a living out 1:14:50.640 --> 1:14:55.680 of that. Right that that technology was making recording a 1:14:55.760 --> 1:14:59.400 different thing, you know that that like during college, I 1:14:59.439 --> 1:15:06.200 remember my love of of hip hop. You know, DC 1:15:06.600 --> 1:15:08.559 growing up in high school had been all about punk 1:15:08.920 --> 1:15:11.559 and hip hop, right Go Go is from DC, and 1:15:11.640 --> 1:15:15.080 the nineties were like, you know, it was the era 1:15:15.240 --> 1:15:18.920 of Tribe called Quests and Black Sheep. You know, it 1:15:18.960 --> 1:15:20.840 was like it was an incredible time for all that stuff. 1:15:20.880 --> 1:15:24.800 And I remember being in college and going how come 1:15:24.840 --> 1:15:27.400 punk rock doesn't have hip hop beats? And being like 1:15:27.600 --> 1:15:31.320 how someone's going to make this album? And then the 1:15:31.360 --> 1:15:33.559 next thing, you know, there's like I remember Odelay by 1:15:33.560 --> 1:15:36.160 Beck coming out and being like, there is a person 1:15:36.200 --> 1:15:38.920 who just made rock and roll with a sampler, Like, actual, 1:15:39.040 --> 1:15:41.759 it's not it's not just like trying to write songs 1:15:41.800 --> 1:15:43.839 over a sampler. It's rock and roll with a sampler. 1:15:43.880 --> 1:15:46.280 And I was like so so in love with that 1:15:46.320 --> 1:15:48.600 record and also so jealous of it, you know, but 1:15:48.600 --> 1:15:51.160 but that was I remember feeling that convergence in the 1:15:51.200 --> 1:15:53.120 late nineties, in the early offs that it was like 1:15:54.520 --> 1:16:03.799 every that you could fluency with the with the world 1:16:03.840 --> 1:16:08.120 around you. What technologically was it was a huge boon 1:16:08.200 --> 1:16:11.920 to creativity, like you could make things differently than than 1:16:12.160 --> 1:16:15.720 than our parents generation had to like it that you 1:16:15.760 --> 1:16:18.000 could get a sampler and make rock and roll with it. 1:16:18.040 --> 1:16:21.200 That was a whole that was really really inspiring to me. 1:16:21.680 --> 1:16:24.160 And it's hard to say exactly how that crosses over 1:16:24.160 --> 1:16:27.519 individual but like, the reason I know how to use 1:16:27.560 --> 1:16:30.920 photoshop was because a couple of punks in DC had 1:16:31.240 --> 1:16:35.599 hired me to work for their software publishing company, where 1:16:35.600 --> 1:16:39.320 they they got a job putting out the CD ROMs 1:16:39.520 --> 1:16:43.120 of Time Magazine in the early nineties when when Time 1:16:43.120 --> 1:16:46.479 Magazine didn't want to didn't digitize anything themselves, they would 1:16:46.479 --> 1:16:49.679 send all their issues to these two punks in DC 1:16:50.080 --> 1:16:53.200 would get them all digitized, and I literally my job 1:16:53.280 --> 1:16:56.439 was put them on a scanner, scan the thing and 1:16:56.439 --> 1:17:00.919 and digitize from the physical copy of time magine goats, 1:17:01.360 --> 1:17:05.599 take off the barcode, and and fill in Hillary Clinton's hair, 1:17:05.800 --> 1:17:10.040 you know, like and and the idea that that visual 1:17:10.160 --> 1:17:13.040 art like this was that it was all malleable, that 1:17:13.080 --> 1:17:15.360 you could get into your computer and start playing around 1:17:15.439 --> 1:17:17.960 with the way this image looks. That to me, it's 1:17:18.000 --> 1:17:20.400 hard to explain about how that connects, but that and 1:17:20.439 --> 1:17:22.120 the sampler at the same time, you could see they 1:17:22.120 --> 1:17:25.360 were heading the same place, you know. And so that 1:17:25.520 --> 1:17:26.960 was the dream to do that. 1:17:27.400 --> 1:17:31.400 Okay, you moved to Chicago, your old friend is there. 1:17:31.960 --> 1:17:34.639 Do you immediately form a group? Yeah. 1:17:34.760 --> 1:17:38.519 They were gonna they were gonna be my backing band 1:17:38.560 --> 1:17:41.720 for a bunch of shows of sorry, a bunch of 1:17:41.760 --> 1:17:46.479 songs I had written in college. That was the first practice. 1:17:46.520 --> 1:17:48.400 But after the first practice, we're like, now we're just 1:17:48.439 --> 1:17:50.800 a new band. Because it was all the guys in 1:17:50.840 --> 1:17:53.920 the band had They had all been in a band 1:17:53.920 --> 1:17:57.880 called Stanley's Joyful Noise prior to this, and they were 1:17:58.040 --> 1:18:00.519 they were not quite on hiatus yet. But they were 1:18:00.560 --> 1:18:04.200 just going to be this other they were going to 1:18:04.280 --> 1:18:05.800 be my backing band for this thing, and then we 1:18:05.880 --> 1:18:07.240 just decided it was an evand. 1:18:07.320 --> 1:18:12.680 Okay, you have this incredible marketing with the posters. What 1:18:12.920 --> 1:18:15.559 happens Usually it's a slow grind. Did you play a 1:18:15.560 --> 1:18:18.519 lot of gigs? When did the light go on? What happened? 1:18:18.920 --> 1:18:20.840 Yeah, we played a lot of We played. We played 1:18:20.880 --> 1:18:23.320 as many gigs as we could, I would say it 1:18:23.400 --> 1:18:27.000 was I mean we were playing at least once a 1:18:27.000 --> 1:18:30.960 month in Chicago, and and and as many times as 1:18:30.960 --> 1:18:32.840 we could in this surround, you know, anywhere within a 1:18:32.960 --> 1:18:36.760 six or eight hour drive of Chicago, and that I 1:18:37.080 --> 1:18:38.960 We did that for a couple of years, I guess, 1:18:39.880 --> 1:18:43.559 and it it we started to get I think we 1:18:43.800 --> 1:18:47.360 like Chicago at that time was a scene not too 1:18:47.400 --> 1:18:52.280 different from DC ten years earlier than that in terms 1:18:52.280 --> 1:18:54.400 of like the small scene of kids that were there. 1:18:54.479 --> 1:18:56.599 Everybody was in a band, like all my friends were 1:18:56.600 --> 1:18:59.120 in bands. Everybody went out to shows pretty much every 1:18:59.120 --> 1:19:02.479 the night of the week. And what I think the 1:19:02.520 --> 1:19:04.880 way the reason we stood out in some way was 1:19:04.920 --> 1:19:10.680 because we were just all kind of pop focused like 1:19:11.160 --> 1:19:15.599 the other bands we were living in with as roommates 1:19:15.600 --> 1:19:19.679 and playing with were all these sort of aggressively post 1:19:19.720 --> 1:19:22.800 punk sort of art bands, and that was like it 1:19:22.840 --> 1:19:25.120 was an awesome scene. But like it was like all 1:19:25.160 --> 1:19:29.720 these mostly dudes playing, you know, playing math rock and 1:19:29.720 --> 1:19:32.599 and trying to push the boundaries of a of a 1:19:32.600 --> 1:19:36.479 particular scene. And we wanted, like I said, we wanted 1:19:36.560 --> 1:19:41.080 cheap trick and Elvis Costello and a certain type of Catharsis. 1:19:41.120 --> 1:19:44.760 And so I like to joke at the time that 1:19:44.840 --> 1:19:47.519 basically like they'd all come and their girlfriends would all 1:19:47.520 --> 1:19:51.519 like us, you know, and it was Our shows were 1:19:51.560 --> 1:19:55.400 just really really fun. It was like a really really joyous, 1:19:55.439 --> 1:19:59.000 playful event. And they got to be really popular in 1:19:59.080 --> 1:20:03.599 Chicago and that sort of growing regionally, and and uh 1:20:04.680 --> 1:20:08.240 we we found a manager. We went on tour opening 1:20:08.240 --> 1:20:10.800 for they might be giants at some point, and and 1:20:10.840 --> 1:20:13.759 they might be giants themselves, Like you said, they wanted 1:20:13.760 --> 1:20:18.760 to start managing us, and uh it in in the 1:20:18.840 --> 1:20:20.479 end we wound up being sort of co managed by 1:20:20.479 --> 1:20:24.519 the by there man. It was an awkward deal in 1:20:24.560 --> 1:20:27.800 the beginning, but you know, Jamie, our first manager, and 1:20:28.280 --> 1:20:31.240 he who I loved dearly and who I think was 1:20:31.479 --> 1:20:38.000 did wonders for us and uh, and then we got signed. 1:20:38.120 --> 1:20:40.400 Eventually got signed. We thought we'd be an Indian. We 1:20:40.760 --> 1:20:44.000 sent our demos to all the the indies you would 1:20:44.000 --> 1:20:48.320 have imagined, you know, like we figured we belonged in 1:20:48.400 --> 1:20:52.720 the sort of you know, sub pop lane. But we 1:20:52.760 --> 1:20:57.240 wound up there. There was a big It was the 1:20:57.240 --> 1:20:59.240 majors who were interested. It turned out like we had 1:20:59.240 --> 1:21:01.439 a demo for a the song get Over It that 1:21:02.160 --> 1:21:04.360 caught fire and it you know, it's a big bidding 1:21:04.360 --> 1:21:07.040 war between I think it was Universal and Capital at 1:21:07.080 --> 1:21:08.360 the time and who are now the same? 1:21:08.439 --> 1:21:13.240 Right? But so you signed with Capital with the Andy Sleader, 1:21:13.760 --> 1:21:16.879 you know, there's a deep line of demarcation of between 1:21:16.920 --> 1:21:21.120 the wooing and then the making. So now you had 1:21:21.160 --> 1:21:23.240 a deal. What was the making like. 1:21:24.080 --> 1:21:27.960 Well, Andy is famously very involved in the making of 1:21:27.960 --> 1:21:32.200 the album center Man, and he was I he was. 1:21:33.400 --> 1:21:36.799 We like we were an easy sell on over production 1:21:37.080 --> 1:21:40.720 because it was it was this moment of of when 1:21:40.760 --> 1:21:44.800 most of the industry was so was chasing garage rock 1:21:44.840 --> 1:21:46.559 and we just didn't want. We were we were like 1:21:46.640 --> 1:21:51.080 we wanted we wanted Roy Thomas Baker and glam you know, 1:21:52.240 --> 1:21:56.760 and so we were happy to go along with the 1:21:56.960 --> 1:22:01.200 with with like with with just you know, no do 1:22:01.240 --> 1:22:03.680 it again, try and make a bigger version, make it, 1:22:03.760 --> 1:22:07.519 you know. And I I have a hard time listening 1:22:07.560 --> 1:22:10.040 to our first record because of that. But also I 1:22:10.120 --> 1:22:12.000 think it's I think it has more to do with 1:22:13.240 --> 1:22:15.080 the fact that, like, who wants to hear their them 1:22:15.160 --> 1:22:17.880 their own voice twenty years hence, you know, like I 1:22:18.240 --> 1:22:20.120 hate the little guy who's singing in those albums, but 1:22:20.320 --> 1:22:26.840 other people don't, you know. And there's some things I'd 1:22:26.880 --> 1:22:31.000 do differently, but I don't. But I'm also like, I 1:22:31.040 --> 1:22:33.640 can't be mad at whatever brought us here, you know. 1:22:33.840 --> 1:22:35.559 I like that how it's gone. 1:22:35.960 --> 1:22:40.200 Okay, So the record comes out, and what was the experience. 1:22:42.080 --> 1:22:44.519 Well, it was whirlwind. It was just like we just 1:22:44.640 --> 1:22:48.160 we toured for two straight years or something. And I 1:22:48.479 --> 1:22:51.400 think it was young and naive enough to think that 1:22:51.560 --> 1:22:55.760 everything was just the next step, you know, that every 1:22:55.800 --> 1:22:59.880 that that every opportunity was just another door open. You 1:23:00.040 --> 1:23:03.360 don't get that, like I didn't have the sense that 1:23:05.800 --> 1:23:07.200 I didn't really have a sense of whether it was 1:23:07.240 --> 1:23:10.599 going well or poorly. You know. It's like we had 1:23:10.600 --> 1:23:12.600 a we had a we had a single that I 1:23:12.680 --> 1:23:15.040 think broke the top twenty, but not the top ten. 1:23:15.160 --> 1:23:17.320 So it was like it was the kind of it 1:23:17.360 --> 1:23:19.280 was exact. It was big enough to get you a 1:23:19.320 --> 1:23:21.640 second album, but not big enough to make you a 1:23:21.720 --> 1:23:28.200 household name, you know, and it I don't know. I 1:23:28.240 --> 1:23:30.000 as you can tell from all these answers, it's like 1:23:30.040 --> 1:23:35.680 there's a part of me that like is willfully delusional, 1:23:35.760 --> 1:23:38.559 right like, because I I if you only listen to 1:23:38.560 --> 1:23:41.880 the rationalist part of yourself, you you don't get to 1:23:42.240 --> 1:23:45.160 chase art. If you only listen to the arty side 1:23:45.160 --> 1:23:48.280 of yourself, you'll you'll you're going to do it, you know, 1:23:48.360 --> 1:23:51.680 alone in your basement. So you've got to keep these 1:23:51.720 --> 1:23:56.240 two things in balance. And especially in my twenties, you know, 1:23:56.320 --> 1:23:59.880 fueled by a lot of caffeine and alcohol, I was 1:24:00.040 --> 1:24:03.280 it was easy for me to stay delusional when I 1:24:03.320 --> 1:24:04.240 needed to, you know. 1:24:12.400 --> 1:24:14.839 Okay, did you make any videos for the first album? 1:24:15.880 --> 1:24:18.479 We did. We made two videos for the first album, 1:24:18.560 --> 1:24:24.920 one with with Francis Lawrence. Uh, you know, Mega Mega 1:24:25.000 --> 1:24:28.719 director who I think we were. We were stuck between 1:24:29.160 --> 1:24:32.000 Will Smith and Pink in his schedule. He had one day, 1:24:32.080 --> 1:24:36.120 you know, and uh, and it was for the song 1:24:36.160 --> 1:24:38.479 get over it, and it was. It got some rotation 1:24:38.560 --> 1:24:41.720 on MTV, but not I think no one yet knew 1:24:41.800 --> 1:24:46.479 how how how dying MTV was right, like YouTube had 1:24:46.520 --> 1:24:50.360 not yet eaten it. But but it was rapidly moving 1:24:50.360 --> 1:24:55.439 towards reality TV and away from music videos. Some people 1:24:55.479 --> 1:24:58.160 saw it. It it It did its job. But it 1:24:58.200 --> 1:25:01.519 was the biggest budget video we would make for the 1:25:01.560 --> 1:25:02.840 next twenty years. 1:25:03.240 --> 1:25:04.320 How big was the budget. 1:25:05.560 --> 1:25:07.280 I think it was something like five hundred K or something. 1:25:07.280 --> 1:25:10.920 You know, it was whatever it was was thatt you know, 1:25:10.960 --> 1:25:15.040 It's like it was something we that could only be 1:25:15.120 --> 1:25:17.439 approved by a Slater like Slater had to pick the 1:25:17.920 --> 1:25:24.360 I had to pick the the director cool right, like 1:25:24.400 --> 1:25:26.439 you could say, pick between these three kind of thing. 1:25:26.520 --> 1:25:31.360 You know, Okay, you make the second record, tell me 1:25:31.439 --> 1:25:36.040 from the beginning, not the mechanics, but the inspiration and 1:25:36.080 --> 1:25:38.840 how you gain control to make the treadmill video. 1:25:40.040 --> 1:25:45.439 The treadmill video was it was the follow up to 1:25:45.840 --> 1:25:49.280 the backyard dance that I described earlier, right that that's 1:25:49.280 --> 1:25:51.759 for the video that the song was a million ways 1:25:52.160 --> 1:25:55.400 and on the on the first album. Prior to this, 1:25:55.720 --> 1:25:58.840 we had been ending our show with this ridiculous dance 1:25:58.920 --> 1:26:02.160 routine that for a song from the first album, and 1:26:02.240 --> 1:26:05.160 again it was a way to be in that that 1:26:05.160 --> 1:26:08.120 that indie rock club in Chicago where all of the 1:26:08.200 --> 1:26:11.400 hipsters are shuffling their feet and to be like like 1:26:11.520 --> 1:26:13.479 fucking smile or get out, you know what I mean. 1:26:13.600 --> 1:26:16.280 And because you can't watch a bunch of nerds like 1:26:16.400 --> 1:26:19.599 us try to do a dance and uh and and 1:26:19.640 --> 1:26:23.360 not laugh at it in some way. And and so 1:26:23.400 --> 1:26:26.240 we knew that it was like we wanted with our 1:26:26.360 --> 1:26:29.559 our second record. We didn't want to keep on ending 1:26:29.600 --> 1:26:31.880 our show with that, but it was so fun, right, 1:26:31.920 --> 1:26:33.880 So we came up with a new dance routine for 1:26:33.960 --> 1:26:37.920 a new song on our second album, and that clip 1:26:39.080 --> 1:26:43.960 got we we we made a video of us. In fact, 1:26:44.000 --> 1:26:46.680 i'll give you the full story. We heard from a 1:26:46.720 --> 1:26:50.400 friend a cap that Michelle Gondree, best video director of 1:26:50.439 --> 1:26:53.680 all time, had a dance video he was gonna make 1:26:53.720 --> 1:26:57.599 with some unheard of from Chicago named Kanye something. And 1:26:58.160 --> 1:27:00.800 we were like, wait, he's gonna make a dance video 1:27:00.800 --> 1:27:03.040 with someone other than us. We're the dance band. So 1:27:03.080 --> 1:27:07.639 we we videotape ourselves doing this and you know, again, 1:27:08.320 --> 1:27:10.240 we have a delusional side here. Thinking like, we're going 1:27:10.280 --> 1:27:12.760 to convince Michelle Gandrie he has to work with us, 1:27:12.800 --> 1:27:15.240 But that video has made. The clip in my Backyard 1:27:15.320 --> 1:27:18.200 was made for the of an audience of one. It 1:27:18.240 --> 1:27:20.160 was just to convince Michelle Gandri that he should make 1:27:20.160 --> 1:27:21.920 a video with us. I don't know if he ever 1:27:21.920 --> 1:27:26.280 even saw it, but it wound up so ludicrous and 1:27:26.320 --> 1:27:28.519 sort of like, you know, there was just something so 1:27:28.760 --> 1:27:33.960 ridiculous about it and popped the bubble of self seriousness 1:27:34.000 --> 1:27:37.840 in rock and roll enough that we when we showed 1:27:37.840 --> 1:27:40.439 it to our friends, somebody put it on a site 1:27:40.479 --> 1:27:45.759 called I film that was before YouTube is a download site, 1:27:45.840 --> 1:27:47.880 and a few months later we saw that it had 1:27:47.880 --> 1:27:50.679 been downloaded three hundred thousand times. I think our first 1:27:50.720 --> 1:27:54.280 album had sold three hundred thousand copies, which, you know, great, 1:27:54.439 --> 1:27:58.800 but we just reached the same number of people accidentally, 1:27:59.520 --> 1:28:02.679 Ya this nerd website, right, And like at that time, 1:28:03.160 --> 1:28:05.400 you can assume the people watching that are all working 1:28:05.439 --> 1:28:07.400 in the IT department, right, Like it's not like normal 1:28:07.479 --> 1:28:11.519 people don't do a lot of video downloading circa two 1:28:11.560 --> 1:28:14.439 thousand and two, two thousand and four, whatever it was. 1:28:15.720 --> 1:28:18.960 But and so, like I said about the sort of 1:28:19.000 --> 1:28:22.799 like us going out into to the fans with spiral notebooks. 1:28:22.800 --> 1:28:25.360 It was like this was we suddenly had a direct, 1:28:26.160 --> 1:28:30.920 a direct connection to a fan base almost as big 1:28:30.960 --> 1:28:35.800 as the one Capital had had helped develop for us. 1:28:36.320 --> 1:28:38.479 And there were one click away and it was sort 1:28:38.479 --> 1:28:41.880 of like, well, if they if they like that, let's 1:28:41.880 --> 1:28:43.599 make them another one of those things. We didn't really 1:28:43.600 --> 1:28:45.120 think of it as a music video. It was just 1:28:45.160 --> 1:28:48.080 like we now have a bunch of people who get 1:28:48.080 --> 1:28:51.120 our sense of humor, who think that because there's something 1:28:51.120 --> 1:28:54.680 about that that's not quite like you know, we've been 1:28:54.760 --> 1:28:57.679 very careful never to make joke music, right, And there's 1:28:57.680 --> 1:29:01.000 bands that sort of like think of themselves as funny 1:29:01.600 --> 1:29:04.040 in a way that I that never appealed to me, 1:29:04.439 --> 1:29:07.000 but I did it. But I did like bands who 1:29:07.000 --> 1:29:10.479 don't take themselves too seriously, you know, And and it 1:29:10.520 --> 1:29:12.799 was sort of a way of connecting with those people. 1:29:13.439 --> 1:29:17.160 So we my sister is a professional barum dancer. We said, like, 1:29:17.400 --> 1:29:20.320 we want to make another dance like that, but we 1:29:20.360 --> 1:29:24.800 don't want to dance. We can't just be a dance band, right, 1:29:24.800 --> 1:29:26.200 so like, what are we going to do? So I 1:29:26.240 --> 1:29:29.240 remember brainstorming with my sister, what could we do to 1:29:29.280 --> 1:29:33.320 make dancing different and that, and we came up with 1:29:33.360 --> 1:29:35.880 this idea of the treadmills. But that was it. Like 1:29:35.920 --> 1:29:37.720 we didn't tell the label we were going to do it. 1:29:37.720 --> 1:29:39.760 We didn't tell our manager we were going to do it, 1:29:39.760 --> 1:29:42.600 because they would taking ten days off from tour to 1:29:42.680 --> 1:29:46.400 go make this thing. Was a terrible idea, you know, 1:29:46.640 --> 1:29:48.240 like what were you going to do with that? So 1:29:48.280 --> 1:29:52.679 we made it and and and it was. We figured 1:29:52.720 --> 1:29:54.920 we'd use it as a sort of like love letter 1:29:55.040 --> 1:29:57.680 to those nerdy fans when we were done with the 1:29:57.720 --> 1:30:00.479 album cycle, right like when everything else is, when we've 1:30:00.520 --> 1:30:02.439 done the big rock videos, when we've done all the touring, 1:30:02.840 --> 1:30:05.080 we'll have one more thing to give those people to 1:30:05.160 --> 1:30:07.880 kind of keep the connection alive until the next record 1:30:07.960 --> 1:30:12.320 comes out. So after eighteen months of touring, several rock videos, 1:30:12.880 --> 1:30:18.679 you know, and won by Michelle Gondry's brother, Olivia Gundry, 1:30:19.080 --> 1:30:23.040 and you know, decently successful. You know, our shows are 1:30:23.040 --> 1:30:24.920 bigger than they were on the first album, where our 1:30:24.960 --> 1:30:26.640 audience is a little bit bigger, but like we're not, 1:30:27.000 --> 1:30:28.559 we're by no means a household name. 1:30:28.600 --> 1:30:28.800 You know. 1:30:29.280 --> 1:30:33.160 We put that video out, well, no I'm sorry. The 1:30:33.280 --> 1:30:36.600 label who had never okay the making of it, but 1:30:36.720 --> 1:30:38.680 did say okay, all right, well that's kind of cool 1:30:38.720 --> 1:30:42.280 what you made. They're the head of their internet department, 1:30:42.680 --> 1:30:46.320 without our permission, put it up on stupid videos dot Com. 1:30:47.640 --> 1:30:51.879 And we were in we were in we were in Moscow, 1:30:51.960 --> 1:30:54.960 playing at the i think second to annual rock festival 1:30:55.000 --> 1:30:57.840 in Moscow, when our roadie goes, hey, I saw your 1:30:57.880 --> 1:30:59.800 videos up on stupid videos dot Com. And of course 1:30:59.800 --> 1:31:02.519 we freak out, you know, we'd go ballistic on the 1:31:02.600 --> 1:31:06.519 label and they're like, what what what I mean? It's 1:31:07.160 --> 1:31:09.160 got tons of traffic, and you're like, you don't think 1:31:09.160 --> 1:31:11.400 there's some there's maybe a little bit of an optics 1:31:11.439 --> 1:31:15.639 problem releasing the video with as Stupid videos dot Com. 1:31:15.920 --> 1:31:18.840 We got them to take it down before the US 1:31:18.920 --> 1:31:21.240 was awake, and we put it up ourselves without the 1:31:21.280 --> 1:31:25.280 permission on YouTube. This this new site which just the 1:31:25.320 --> 1:31:27.680 guy who ran our you know, our email list at 1:31:27.680 --> 1:31:29.160 the time was like, you should check out this one. 1:31:29.400 --> 1:31:33.280 And we'd had an we'd had a a request from 1:31:33.400 --> 1:31:36.240 Chad at YouTube dot com. You know, the founders in 1:31:36.280 --> 1:31:38.640 that first year were sending out anytime they thought they 1:31:38.640 --> 1:31:40.320 saw something cool. They just write to them. So we 1:31:40.360 --> 1:31:42.200 had some emails from them saying you should put your 1:31:42.200 --> 1:31:45.559 stuff up on our platform. So we did, and within 1:31:45.600 --> 1:31:47.640 a week it was you know, like we thought, we 1:31:47.680 --> 1:31:50.120 thought maybe we'd reach those same three hundred thousand people 1:31:50.120 --> 1:31:52.719 after a few months, but it was a few million 1:31:52.760 --> 1:31:55.400 in the first few days, which back then was you know, 1:31:55.479 --> 1:31:59.679 that was breaking the entire internet. And vh one added 1:31:59.720 --> 1:32:02.880 it with in a week, and and and we had 1:32:02.880 --> 1:32:05.760 been asked to perform on the VMAs, and and you know, 1:32:05.960 --> 1:32:09.960 a few months later we got a Grammy, and and 1:32:10.280 --> 1:32:14.000 we toured for another We toured for another full year. 1:32:14.080 --> 1:32:17.280 I mean like our record, which had debuted at the 1:32:17.280 --> 1:32:20.639 top of the heat Stickers chart, went back to number 1:32:20.640 --> 1:32:23.439 one in the fifty third week. So it was like 1:32:23.479 --> 1:32:25.800 literally a full year after the record was out, we 1:32:25.840 --> 1:32:27.800 started a whole other record cycle, and we toured for 1:32:27.840 --> 1:32:32.760 another year, and and it was awesome. I was very 1:32:32.880 --> 1:32:34.360 very spent by the end of that. 1:32:34.720 --> 1:32:37.920 Okay, where was the label on all this? 1:32:40.560 --> 1:32:47.800 They were very cautious about us because they they they 1:32:49.000 --> 1:32:55.320 they wanted look that record. They they they were very 1:32:55.360 --> 1:33:00.880 anti sort of you know, the youth and sharing, right, 1:33:00.920 --> 1:33:02.599 Like there was this there was. There was a worry 1:33:02.760 --> 1:33:05.960 with that album. When that album came out, they wanted 1:33:06.000 --> 1:33:09.200 to put DRM on it. You remember the whole DRM thing, right, 1:33:09.400 --> 1:33:11.240 they wanted to put DRM on it. We looked at it. 1:33:11.360 --> 1:33:13.880 We were like, look iPods in the in the in 1:33:13.920 --> 1:33:15.760 the three years since our first record had come out, 1:33:15.800 --> 1:33:18.320 iPods had taken over. And if you're telling our fans 1:33:18.360 --> 1:33:20.680 they that they can't they can if they buy our 1:33:20.720 --> 1:33:23.920 CD legally they can't put it on their iPod. That's 1:33:23.960 --> 1:33:27.320 the same things as shooting the band in the face, right, 1:33:27.400 --> 1:33:30.559 like it like, no one is going to listen to 1:33:30.640 --> 1:33:33.719 something that they can't have on their iPod, So please 1:33:33.760 --> 1:33:37.320 don't do that to it. They we had a long 1:33:37.680 --> 1:33:41.439 argument with them about that. They in the end decided, okay, no, 1:33:41.520 --> 1:33:46.479 we're doing DRM. So we added as a a the 1:33:46.560 --> 1:33:48.759 secret track. You know, the final track to our album 1:33:49.320 --> 1:33:51.680 was exactly as long as there were bites left on 1:33:51.720 --> 1:33:54.080 the CD. We made it thirty two minutes and whatever 1:33:54.160 --> 1:34:00.200 seconds long, which filled up every last remaining data bought 1:34:00.240 --> 1:34:02.800 on the CD. So they couldn't fit the DRM on it, 1:34:02.920 --> 1:34:06.240 you know, which they didn't realize until QC sent it 1:34:06.280 --> 1:34:08.040 back and sudden they couldn't put a DRM on it, 1:34:08.040 --> 1:34:10.200 and it was too late to deal with it. But 1:34:10.680 --> 1:34:14.439 that obviously set off that was the relationship. Right, They 1:34:14.439 --> 1:34:16.639 were like we were the band that that was that 1:34:17.280 --> 1:34:20.160 wanted our video to be embeddable back when that was 1:34:20.200 --> 1:34:24.559 an issue, right, and I had written op eds for 1:34:24.560 --> 1:34:26.840 The New York Times saying like, yeah, our label won't 1:34:26.880 --> 1:34:30.120 let us embed our video and here's our problems with it. 1:34:30.479 --> 1:34:33.120 That was the sort of thing that that put us, 1:34:33.200 --> 1:34:37.120 you know, not on great footing with the label. We 1:34:37.120 --> 1:34:39.599 were all, you know, sort of aligned in terms of 1:34:39.640 --> 1:34:44.320 like all, all of the attention this is getting is good. 1:34:44.960 --> 1:34:50.519 But the same person who had when I when I 1:34:50.600 --> 1:34:57.759 first showed the label our backyard dance video, the first 1:34:57.800 --> 1:35:03.080 response was is if this gets out your because it 1:35:03.120 --> 1:35:05.439 was because they thought it made they thought it made 1:35:05.479 --> 1:35:07.880 us look gay, if they thought it made us look nerdy, 1:35:07.920 --> 1:35:10.120 they thought it made us And it was like We're like, yeah, 1:35:10.160 --> 1:35:13.080 like it makes us look different than everyone else. Like 1:35:13.120 --> 1:35:15.320 that's the that's the point, you know, Like that's that's 1:35:15.320 --> 1:35:18.360 we are different than everybody else. And and the same 1:35:18.400 --> 1:35:23.559 person who had said that then had made very sure 1:35:23.600 --> 1:35:26.360 that when you know, like a USA today wanted to 1:35:26.400 --> 1:35:29.240 do a piece on the on the on the Treadmill video, 1:35:29.680 --> 1:35:34.599 and it's grammy, you know. Eighteen months later they that 1:35:34.640 --> 1:35:36.200 person had to be sitting in the room to make 1:35:36.240 --> 1:35:39.040 sure they didn't. I didn't repeat the story I just 1:35:39.040 --> 1:35:43.840 did to you, you know, And so they I don't, 1:35:44.080 --> 1:35:49.439 And honestly, like I think everybody, I don't. I never 1:35:49.560 --> 1:35:53.719 had a like an a super combative relationship with the label. 1:35:54.320 --> 1:35:59.280 It just became pretty clear that like what success looked 1:35:59.320 --> 1:36:01.120 like to us and to them were very different. Like 1:36:01.439 --> 1:36:05.320 they needed success that was replicable and scalable across all 1:36:05.360 --> 1:36:09.280 of their investments. Right, we needed to be able to 1:36:09.320 --> 1:36:15.160 make art the next day and to have to chase 1:36:15.240 --> 1:36:17.920 the things that are working and optimize them, right, Like 1:36:18.200 --> 1:36:21.479 that thing's happening and people love it, and that's an 1:36:21.479 --> 1:36:23.320 opportunity for us to make more things like that in 1:36:23.360 --> 1:36:25.320 the future. And that's like, that's what I care about 1:36:25.320 --> 1:36:28.760 for my life, you know, And being able to do 1:36:28.800 --> 1:36:31.639 that wasn't was not a good business model for the label. 1:36:31.680 --> 1:36:33.559 I get that, like, but it's a good business model 1:36:33.600 --> 1:36:37.120 for our band. So it got to a point where 1:36:37.120 --> 1:36:40.400 it was obvious that we just needed to go different directions. 1:36:40.600 --> 1:36:43.240 Okay, but in the interroim, you made a third record. 1:36:43.280 --> 1:36:46.680 What was the story with that, Well, I. 1:36:46.600 --> 1:36:50.040 Mean they were so look, the same video that they 1:36:50.040 --> 1:36:52.960 thought would was going to sink us. They then, you know, 1:36:53.479 --> 1:37:00.719 we're once we were getting Grammys for for breaking MTV. 1:37:01.439 --> 1:37:04.120 They loved that right, like there it was. They loved 1:37:04.120 --> 1:37:06.200 taking credit for it once it was successful. And so 1:37:06.800 --> 1:37:08.960 we were off onto the idea of a third record 1:37:09.240 --> 1:37:13.000 where we would we would really lean into the video thing. Awesome, 1:37:13.240 --> 1:37:15.360 We're gonna make a video for every song, and they 1:37:15.360 --> 1:37:19.120 gave us a budget for that. And then when we 1:37:19.160 --> 1:37:21.400 started making the videos and asking for the budget payoffs, 1:37:21.439 --> 1:37:24.599 they didn't pay the checks. You know, they were like, yeah, 1:37:24.600 --> 1:37:25.840 but we didn't say yes to that one, and we 1:37:25.880 --> 1:37:29.840 didn't say yes to this certain like and so our 1:37:30.080 --> 1:37:32.200 manager at the time, good friend of yours end mine, 1:37:32.479 --> 1:37:35.160 basically just went to them. It was like, if you're 1:37:35.160 --> 1:37:37.120 not gonna pay, look, if you don't want, if you 1:37:37.120 --> 1:37:38.760 don't want a band like this, just let us off 1:37:38.760 --> 1:37:42.439 the fucking deal. And they did. It was pretty shocking. 1:37:42.880 --> 1:37:49.479 Okay, you described it with the emotions of you know, 1:37:49.960 --> 1:37:54.240 from the side of creativity and the differences with the label, 1:37:54.960 --> 1:37:59.799 but at the time, not today. Leaving a major label 1:37:59.880 --> 1:38:01.120 was not what people did. 1:38:02.479 --> 1:38:05.240 No, it was scary. It was scary. But again remember 1:38:05.280 --> 1:38:09.400 the DC background in the sort of like anti establishment 1:38:09.600 --> 1:38:14.240 roots of of of the things I love. Uh, you know, 1:38:14.600 --> 1:38:17.920 obviously too cocky about it because I was also you know, 1:38:18.120 --> 1:38:22.600 twenty something or whatever. I we knew we had a 1:38:22.600 --> 1:38:25.920 connection to our fans and that that was valuable, you know, 1:38:26.360 --> 1:38:31.519 Like I think what we now recognize as like the 1:38:31.560 --> 1:38:37.120 attention economy, it was back then. What it felt like 1:38:38.680 --> 1:38:44.240 was we're able to make things that that these that 1:38:44.240 --> 1:38:46.320 that our fans love, and they know how to get 1:38:46.360 --> 1:38:47.800 to us, and we know how to get to them, 1:38:48.120 --> 1:38:50.680 and what we used to need a label for. We 1:38:51.240 --> 1:38:57.439 it like that that that pipeline is shrinking, right, There's 1:38:57.439 --> 1:39:01.200 still lots that we need, but it's it we're less 1:39:01.240 --> 1:39:04.000 dependent on them than ever and they don't want to 1:39:04.000 --> 1:39:07.200 do the things that we know will work. So it 1:39:07.280 --> 1:39:07.720 was kind of gold. 1:39:07.960 --> 1:39:10.840 Okay, so you've been independent for an excess of a decade. 1:39:11.479 --> 1:39:14.200 How does that feel great? 1:39:14.960 --> 1:39:18.840 I mean, I look, I don't like the business part. 1:39:19.120 --> 1:39:21.320 I don't like as you can tell from from all 1:39:21.320 --> 1:39:25.960 my squirrely artsy answers. I don't like thinking about budgets. 1:39:26.000 --> 1:39:27.960 I don't like thinking about money. I don't like thinking 1:39:27.960 --> 1:39:33.720 about you know, return on investment. But I but I 1:39:33.760 --> 1:39:38.800 really don't like not being able to make the things 1:39:38.800 --> 1:39:42.080 we want, you know, and so we make some So 1:39:42.120 --> 1:39:44.680 we make we we you know, have to. We have 1:39:44.760 --> 1:39:47.280 to assume a lot of risk that in terms of 1:39:47.400 --> 1:39:50.080 investing in things like, you know, a six figure of 1:39:50.160 --> 1:39:52.400 video which we don't know if we'll find a sponsor 1:39:52.479 --> 1:39:57.080 for and that's scary as hell. But no label except 1:39:57.080 --> 1:39:57.599 my own. 1:40:05.520 --> 1:40:08.640 Okay, So at this point, you know, things have been 1:40:08.680 --> 1:40:11.080 sort of weird because of COVID et cetera. But how 1:40:11.120 --> 1:40:13.760 many gigs a year is? Okay, go playing. 1:40:15.000 --> 1:40:19.800 It right now? I mean where we have it down 1:40:20.640 --> 1:40:23.880 fairly low number because we all have young kids. But 1:40:24.200 --> 1:40:26.080 so like, if we wanted to make a lot more money, 1:40:26.080 --> 1:40:28.080 we'd play a lot more. But we but like this 1:40:28.240 --> 1:40:33.280 album and this year, I think we did thirty five shows, 1:40:33.280 --> 1:40:34.559 maybe forty. 1:40:34.920 --> 1:40:39.880 Okay, you know you are the record company, you have costs. 1:40:41.120 --> 1:40:46.040 Streaming is a winner take all proposition. You could work 1:40:46.080 --> 1:40:49.680 thirty five days a year and everybody could pay all 1:40:49.720 --> 1:40:51.040 their bills. 1:40:51.600 --> 1:40:53.240 I didn't say we worked thirty five days a year. 1:40:53.240 --> 1:40:55.000 I say, we tour thirty five days a year. 1:40:55.040 --> 1:40:58.439 Okay, then what are the other revenue streams? Oh? 1:40:58.520 --> 1:41:00.559 I mean first of all, those even those shows take 1:41:00.600 --> 1:41:02.880 a lot more work than the days are on. But 1:41:02.880 --> 1:41:06.479 but the the I mean, our videos take months. So 1:41:06.520 --> 1:41:07.360 I'm not to worry about. 1:41:07.360 --> 1:41:10.679 No, I'm not saying you're not working. I'm saying where 1:41:10.680 --> 1:41:11.880 does the money come from? 1:41:11.920 --> 1:41:12.760 Oh? 1:41:12.439 --> 1:41:12.559 Uh? 1:41:12.840 --> 1:41:20.320 The the I mean the our our shows are profitable, right, 1:41:20.400 --> 1:41:23.439 like so our shows are merger profitable. Sometimes our videos 1:41:23.439 --> 1:41:27.000 are profitable, like this album, We've only gotten to break 1:41:27.040 --> 1:41:29.920 even on them. But there are like we made on 1:41:29.920 --> 1:41:34.360 our third out I'm sorry, third album, third and fourth album, 1:41:34.400 --> 1:41:38.000 we made videos that were sponsored to the degree where 1:41:38.040 --> 1:41:39.760 we could get feed like one of one of them 1:41:39.800 --> 1:41:41.880 was a super Bowl commercial. Like we you know, that's 1:41:41.880 --> 1:41:45.880 a that's a hefty, hefty check. It used to be 1:41:46.280 --> 1:41:47.880 that a lot of that that we would also make 1:41:47.920 --> 1:41:50.479 a lot in licensing. We do okay in licensing, but 1:41:50.920 --> 1:41:56.640 you know, our our sort of ongoing streaming and licensing 1:41:56.720 --> 1:41:59.880 revenue is enough to pay for our infrastructure. 1:42:01.320 --> 1:42:03.840 Okay, what does it look like going forward? Because if 1:42:03.880 --> 1:42:07.559 you look at the business at large, Okay, the barrier 1:42:07.600 --> 1:42:11.760 to entry is very low. You have name recognition in 1:42:11.800 --> 1:42:14.720 the history from the twenty first century. The lot of 1:42:14.720 --> 1:42:18.360 people have name recognition from the twentieth century who still 1:42:18.360 --> 1:42:21.760 can't get over the fact that A labels not supporting them. 1:42:22.479 --> 1:42:26.040 So as you look forward, what does it look like? 1:42:27.400 --> 1:42:32.640 I am terrified, But I also have always been terrified, 1:42:33.080 --> 1:42:38.400 like we've are. Our financial model has basically been the 1:42:38.439 --> 1:42:42.439 roadrunner off the cliff forever, right, Like, just keep on going, 1:42:42.560 --> 1:42:44.720 keep on making the thing you want to make, and 1:42:45.520 --> 1:42:47.479 if there's money in the bank to do it and 1:42:47.520 --> 1:42:50.880 you can stomach the risk, it usually pays off, you know, 1:42:51.000 --> 1:42:53.559 or rather the one out of ten times it pays off, 1:42:53.600 --> 1:42:58.880 it pays off tenfold. And so that has sustained us 1:42:58.880 --> 1:43:02.479 this long, and that's all. I just have to hope 1:43:02.520 --> 1:43:06.519 it keeps doing that. I look, what I know of 1:43:06.560 --> 1:43:09.200 the industry at large is not a good bet. But 1:43:09.320 --> 1:43:10.840 it's the only one I can make because I want to, 1:43:10.880 --> 1:43:13.240 because I this is this is what I love doing. 1:43:13.840 --> 1:43:16.880 Okay, If I spoke with the other band members, are 1:43:16.920 --> 1:43:18.080 they on the same page. 1:43:21.280 --> 1:43:23.160 I think so. I mean, we would all love to 1:43:23.240 --> 1:43:27.599 have bigger paychecks. But but certainly no one, No one 1:43:27.640 --> 1:43:30.839 wants to tour more during this phase of our lives. 1:43:30.920 --> 1:43:33.280 I could see us touring more when our kids get 1:43:33.280 --> 1:43:37.320 a little older. But it's do you have kids, No, 1:43:38.080 --> 1:43:41.320 it's it is the period during which they really want 1:43:41.320 --> 1:43:42.640 to be with you and you really want to be 1:43:42.720 --> 1:43:46.640 with them is short and different, and and I I 1:43:46.680 --> 1:43:49.040 would have a really hard time being gone more than 1:43:49.040 --> 1:43:52.320 I am right now. That right now, that as you know, 1:43:52.360 --> 1:43:55.479 that sort of service industry model of music, of music 1:43:55.520 --> 1:43:57.240 industry where you can get paid as long as you're 1:43:57.280 --> 1:44:01.000 out there pounding the pavement is the only way to 1:44:01.080 --> 1:44:05.040 really make it profitable. We're we are happy to live 1:44:05.040 --> 1:44:08.840 fairly frugally right now and keep on making, keep on 1:44:09.160 --> 1:44:12.040 making this weird art that we get to make, and 1:44:12.040 --> 1:44:15.280 and look at where that leads us. I mean, here's 1:44:15.320 --> 1:44:17.479 one thing that we do that no other band can. 1:44:18.960 --> 1:44:22.400 We have a performing Arts center show where we live, 1:44:22.479 --> 1:44:25.519 score our videos, and we do the circuit. You know, 1:44:25.680 --> 1:44:27.439 we we'll do some of this again, like you're asking 1:44:27.439 --> 1:44:28.960 about next year, We'll do some of this next year. 1:44:29.000 --> 1:44:32.960 This is like we're playing in you know, like Disney 1:44:33.000 --> 1:44:36.800 Hall style things, right Like we're sit down show where 1:44:36.840 --> 1:44:40.240 there's a you're you're invited to bring your kids. The 1:44:40.320 --> 1:44:42.240 volumes are a little lower. There's a lot of Q 1:44:42.320 --> 1:44:46.519 and A with us, and and and instead of trying, 1:44:46.600 --> 1:44:49.360 instead of trying to put on the most energetic and 1:44:49.479 --> 1:44:59.360 most uh moving, sweaty rock show where we're inviting you 1:44:59.439 --> 1:45:01.200 to watch the film and we're gonna live score it 1:45:01.240 --> 1:45:05.959 for you, right and those that that tour is pretty evergreen, 1:45:06.040 --> 1:45:08.639 like we've never had trouble, Like we can do that anywhere, 1:45:09.080 --> 1:45:11.120 And we can only do that if our videos are 1:45:11.160 --> 1:45:13.360 as great as they are and every and every album 1:45:13.400 --> 1:45:16.080 we're gonna add to, you know, and that that show 1:45:16.280 --> 1:45:22.160 is a real, a real pleasure. I would I think 1:45:22.200 --> 1:45:25.040 that there's a real opportunity for us to do similar 1:45:25.160 --> 1:45:28.000 theater type things with with the videos that we have 1:45:28.520 --> 1:45:31.120 in the future. That may or may not happen, but 1:45:31.160 --> 1:45:34.360 we have a lot of offers from science institutions and 1:45:34.520 --> 1:45:39.240 from from theaters you know, Broadway and Broadway adjacent stuff 1:45:39.360 --> 1:45:41.600 Like I don't know if we'll do it or not, 1:45:41.800 --> 1:45:45.960 but like I'm not sitting here trying to figure out 1:45:46.040 --> 1:45:48.759 how we're going to make ends meet by the number 1:45:48.760 --> 1:45:50.639 of shows we're playing next year. I'm trying to figure 1:45:50.680 --> 1:45:55.400 out what art projects are going to remain exciting and 1:45:55.400 --> 1:45:58.880 and worthwhile and riveting and worth putting our lives into. 1:45:59.320 --> 1:46:02.920 Because so far, if we're able to make great stuff, 1:46:02.920 --> 1:46:05.519 there will be a revenue stream that attached to it. 1:46:05.880 --> 1:46:07.559 We're not always sure where it's going to come from, 1:46:07.600 --> 1:46:08.599 but it happens. 1:46:08.760 --> 1:46:12.880 Okay, you've gotten older, the band is evolved, but there's 1:46:12.880 --> 1:46:17.160 been rapid change in the world. You had this moment 1:46:17.320 --> 1:46:22.040 with the Treadmill video the VMAs. One can ask whether 1:46:22.080 --> 1:46:26.280 anybody can have a moment like that anymore, But are 1:46:26.320 --> 1:46:30.719 you searching to equal that? How do you metabolize having 1:46:30.800 --> 1:46:32.479 that peak yet keep going on. 1:46:33.680 --> 1:46:37.400 Well, that's why the Grammy nominations this year are such 1:46:37.400 --> 1:46:39.519 a big deal to us, because like we've been look, 1:46:39.560 --> 1:46:42.240 I went away and made a film after COVID, which 1:46:42.280 --> 1:46:45.599 shut down things for it, like it was ten full 1:46:45.680 --> 1:46:47.519 years between it. In fact, a little more than ten 1:46:47.600 --> 1:46:50.599 years between our last two albums. That's the kind of 1:46:51.320 --> 1:46:53.720 you know, we didn't intentionally go on hiatus. We were 1:46:53.760 --> 1:46:59.360 just busy, but that's the type of thing that when 1:46:59.360 --> 1:47:01.200 we were putting out the record, we were like, look, 1:47:01.280 --> 1:47:06.320 this could easily come off, as you knows, as the 1:47:06.400 --> 1:47:08.720 has beens trying to make a comeback or whatever, but 1:47:08.760 --> 1:47:11.400 the fact that we're nominated for multiple Grammys is like, 1:47:13.160 --> 1:47:19.120 it is I'm very gratified by this nod from our 1:47:19.160 --> 1:47:21.479 peers that like it still matters, you know, and our 1:47:21.520 --> 1:47:24.760 shows have been selling out. We have you know, we 1:47:24.800 --> 1:47:28.000 have our fan base is as big as it ever was, 1:47:28.080 --> 1:47:31.200 and so I'm I feel very gratified that it's still here. 1:47:31.280 --> 1:47:37.880 It's something we can be doing, and it's you know, 1:47:37.920 --> 1:47:40.200 it's this is sort of related to the like how 1:47:40.240 --> 1:47:42.040 do you deal with the videos being more famous than 1:47:42.040 --> 1:47:44.840 the music question. It's like that's only the case to 1:47:45.520 --> 1:47:51.800 the broad shallow audience. The narrow, deep audience go like 1:47:52.400 --> 1:47:55.240 those who go down the rabbit hole with us. Man, 1:47:55.280 --> 1:47:58.200 it's a deep rabbit hole, and I that's the one 1:47:58.200 --> 1:47:59.800 I get to live in, right because they're my songs 1:47:59.840 --> 1:48:02.720 and my videos and they're my art projects, and so 1:48:03.080 --> 1:48:06.800 where I live that the shallow thing is just like 1:48:06.960 --> 1:48:09.040 that's just a catchment for more people who want to 1:48:09.040 --> 1:48:11.760 come in, you know, and I love it. 1:48:12.520 --> 1:48:19.879 Okay. Simultaneous with this career, you're married a number of times. 1:48:19.920 --> 1:48:21.880 When were you first married. 1:48:23.840 --> 1:48:26.760 My late twenties to my early thirties. 1:48:26.320 --> 1:48:28.519 And how did you meet that woman? And where were 1:48:28.520 --> 1:48:29.920 you in your career at that point? 1:48:30.000 --> 1:48:33.920 That was my just after she and I met in college, 1:48:33.960 --> 1:48:38.080 but we weren't romantically. After college, I followed her. That's 1:48:38.080 --> 1:48:40.160 how I moved to La She went to grad school 1:48:40.280 --> 1:48:42.960 at UCLA, and I followed her out there. I was 1:48:42.960 --> 1:48:45.360 already spending more time in la than Chicago because we 1:48:45.439 --> 1:48:52.720 were recording our record there, and and and we we 1:48:52.760 --> 1:48:55.439 got married during the middle of that law that that 1:48:55.439 --> 1:48:59.240 that thirty two month tour for our second album. I 1:48:59.280 --> 1:49:01.080 think the law guest we ever took off of that 1:49:01.120 --> 1:49:03.479 tour was so that I could get married. We took 1:49:03.479 --> 1:49:08.080 ten days off and and uh it we were just 1:49:08.160 --> 1:49:10.360 too young and too in our own worlds for it 1:49:10.400 --> 1:49:14.240 to last. I mean, she's a wonderful woman, and we 1:49:14.240 --> 1:49:16.400 we maybe in a different life, but it was by 1:49:16.439 --> 1:49:18.320 the end of it, it was we were just we 1:49:18.360 --> 1:49:23.679 had different lines like being in a relationship like like that. 1:49:24.080 --> 1:49:26.639 Trying to have that close relationship when you're on tour 1:49:27.280 --> 1:49:29.880 two hundred and fifty days a year is crazy, you know. 1:49:30.840 --> 1:49:32.719 But how long until you get married again? 1:49:35.040 --> 1:49:37.920 It was then, I guess three or four years. So 1:49:37.960 --> 1:49:43.840 I got married again in a I fell head over 1:49:43.880 --> 1:49:49.760 heels for someone too quickly, and and we we had 1:49:50.040 --> 1:49:53.800 we had like a fantasy relationship where I think we 1:49:53.800 --> 1:49:56.800 were both in love with an idealized version of the other. 1:49:58.120 --> 1:50:02.800 Slightly slightly, I mean, at least the touring was less 1:50:02.840 --> 1:50:08.599 of the of the downfall of that relationship. But we 1:50:08.600 --> 1:50:09.759 weren't grown ups yet. 1:50:10.000 --> 1:50:12.840 So how long did that last? 1:50:13.840 --> 1:50:17.160 The full relationship was less than four years, including a 1:50:17.160 --> 1:50:19.280 marriage of two. 1:50:20.320 --> 1:50:23.720 So how long after that do you meet your present wife? 1:50:24.120 --> 1:50:26.439 I met my present wife at the very end of 1:50:26.720 --> 1:50:28.519 re met my present wife at the very end of that. 1:50:28.600 --> 1:50:31.720 But we were just friends for a full year and 1:50:31.760 --> 1:50:36.320 then we were romantic for two before he got married. 1:50:36.400 --> 1:50:38.880 And then we've been married. 1:50:38.920 --> 1:50:41.240 Ten Had she been married before? 1:50:42.160 --> 1:50:43.280 She had been married once before. 1:50:43.320 --> 1:50:45.960 Yeah, And did she have any reluctance to marry you 1:50:46.040 --> 1:50:51.280 because you were a two time loser? Yeah? 1:50:51.320 --> 1:50:53.439 I think she probably did. I think she probably did. 1:50:54.000 --> 1:50:55.479 Luckily she gave me the benefit of that. 1:50:55.800 --> 1:51:01.240 Okay. Her father is al Gore's like being the sudden 1:51:01.360 --> 1:51:02.280 law of al Gore. 1:51:04.000 --> 1:51:08.520 It is very humbling. It's it's really good at reminding 1:51:08.520 --> 1:51:10.960 you of what's important in life, because if you think 1:51:11.000 --> 1:51:14.439 what you're doing matters. Look at what he does, you 1:51:14.439 --> 1:51:17.920 know what I mean, it's it is ah it. He's 1:51:17.960 --> 1:51:24.640 a he's a spectacularly smart and soulful man who I 1:51:24.680 --> 1:51:29.800 really looked up to great deal. But he's also he's 1:51:29.840 --> 1:51:31.479 also a grand granddad, you know what I mean, Like 1:51:31.520 --> 1:51:34.080 he's my My kids didn't know, didn't know he had 1:51:34.120 --> 1:51:37.639 a famous history until just this last year. Like because 1:51:37.680 --> 1:51:40.799 he's just to him, he's to them, he's his granddad, 1:51:40.880 --> 1:51:44.519 you know. And my wife grew up you know, my 1:51:44.520 --> 1:51:47.600 my wife, I knew her in high school. We we 1:51:47.600 --> 1:51:49.360 we knew each other in high school. She and at 1:51:49.400 --> 1:51:51.599 the time she was the daughter of the vice president, 1:51:51.720 --> 1:51:54.559 and we didn't know each other well. But you know, 1:51:54.680 --> 1:51:59.840 that was a brutal, awful thing to go through as 1:51:59.840 --> 1:52:03.679 a teenage girl. Uh. And so like it's not a 1:52:04.040 --> 1:52:05.880 The last thing I'd ever want from my kids is 1:52:05.880 --> 1:52:12.960 for them to feel to really have any relationship to 1:52:13.640 --> 1:52:16.160 my public life. Like I want them their lives to 1:52:16.200 --> 1:52:19.679 be their own, you know, or their grandfather. 1:52:20.200 --> 1:52:23.559 And so how much contact does your family have with 1:52:23.720 --> 1:52:25.240 al Go or how often you see. 1:52:25.120 --> 1:52:28.640 Him several times a year? I mean we we overall, 1:52:28.479 --> 1:52:31.880 we he's a very he's a he's a very busy man, 1:52:31.960 --> 1:52:34.479 but but he's also a very active grand so we 1:52:34.520 --> 1:52:35.480 see him a lot. 1:52:35.800 --> 1:52:40.960 And how about his significant other? Tiper Gore, of course, 1:52:41.160 --> 1:52:45.599 was involved in the whole Lyrics controversy. Is that something 1:52:45.640 --> 1:52:46.880 you've ever discussed with her? 1:52:49.439 --> 1:52:53.759 Only only superficially. She is an incredibly playful and incredibly 1:52:53.800 --> 1:52:58.559 wonderful and incredibly artistic woman. You know, she like has 1:52:58.600 --> 1:53:00.960 played drums with that with the Grateful Dead, like she 1:53:01.120 --> 1:53:02.920 and you know she and Frank Zapp were like really 1:53:02.920 --> 1:53:07.360 good friends after all of that, Like the I think 1:53:07.360 --> 1:53:16.200 that was a that whole episode was I have realized 1:53:16.400 --> 1:53:22.840 with distance is was greatly greatly I'm amplified by the Right, 1:53:22.920 --> 1:53:25.360 Like the whole point is to sew division and and 1:53:25.400 --> 1:53:27.160 in fact, all she was was a young mother who 1:53:27.200 --> 1:53:31.720 was like, didn't didn't want her wanted to know if 1:53:31.840 --> 1:53:33.920 if an album she was buying for a kid was 1:53:33.920 --> 1:53:36.200 filled with the word fuck, like I would want that 1:53:36.240 --> 1:53:39.320 for my kids, you know. And it turned into this 1:53:39.360 --> 1:53:42.680 whole like it got the Right used it as a 1:53:42.680 --> 1:53:45.200 wedge between lefties to be like, look they're trying to 1:53:45.240 --> 1:53:48.320 center you, you know it, and it worked like the 1:53:49.680 --> 1:53:53.040 it's easy to convince us that we're being that, that 1:53:53.200 --> 1:53:56.160 the powers that be are trying to to shit on us, 1:53:56.200 --> 1:53:56.479 you know. 1:53:57.000 --> 1:53:59.440 And how did you end up living in Santa Barbara. 1:54:00.040 --> 1:54:05.040 Because of her? We went she during the fires last year, 1:54:05.439 --> 1:54:11.280 we escaped, We escaped La. My kids school, sorry, our 1:54:11.280 --> 1:54:13.720 house was fine. My kids school was too close for 1:54:13.760 --> 1:54:16.160 comfort to the eat and fire in East La. I 1:54:16.160 --> 1:54:22.720 mean in Pasadena, sorry, Alaina and uh and we came. 1:54:22.880 --> 1:54:26.040 We came up to stay with with Tipper, and we 1:54:26.080 --> 1:54:28.599 loved the community up here so much that we stayed. 1:54:36.480 --> 1:54:40.360 Okay, you have a very full life, Okay, go and 1:54:40.480 --> 1:54:44.200 all its permutations. You're married, you have a couple of kids. 1:54:45.000 --> 1:54:47.960 Is there any time left over for other things? Whether 1:54:47.960 --> 1:54:50.800 it be streaming television, movies, books, whatever. 1:54:51.960 --> 1:54:53.680 I read a lot. I read a lot of books 1:54:53.720 --> 1:54:56.360 just because that's how that's my like nighttime routine. But 1:54:56.960 --> 1:55:00.000 I know, I mean I I have even before kids, 1:55:00.040 --> 1:55:03.480 I had a problem where anything I find interesting gets 1:55:03.520 --> 1:55:05.360 sucked into the art. Right Like if I if I 1:55:05.400 --> 1:55:08.520 get fascinated with something, let's make a video out of it. 1:55:08.560 --> 1:55:11.360 If I get fascinated with, you know, some instrument, let's 1:55:11.360 --> 1:55:13.960 make a record out of it like it. It's hard 1:55:13.960 --> 1:55:17.080 for me not to take everything I love and make 1:55:17.120 --> 1:55:19.880 a job out of it, which is a blessing and 1:55:19.960 --> 1:55:22.720 the curse obviously it means I don't have a lot 1:55:22.760 --> 1:55:25.960 of of of hobbies. Well, I'm trying to play tennis. 1:55:26.000 --> 1:55:29.000 I'm trying to play tennis. But then once you add 1:55:29.080 --> 1:55:31.960 kids to that, there's really there's zero time left for 1:55:31.960 --> 1:55:32.320 ant of it. 1:55:32.480 --> 1:55:34.120 Just so I understand why is it a curse? 1:55:34.960 --> 1:55:37.760 Well, because you'd like to be able to shut off sometimes, 1:55:37.840 --> 1:55:46.680 you know, like every when you professionalize your passion, there's 1:55:46.960 --> 1:55:49.800 it also means, you know, like you sap it of 1:55:49.840 --> 1:55:54.800 some of its purity. You know that that I want 1:55:54.840 --> 1:55:57.000 to learn to be a better piano player. So I'm 1:55:57.080 --> 1:55:59.880 so I'm taking piano lessons right now, and I love 1:56:00.080 --> 1:56:04.280 practicing and I feel it. I feel it coming in 1:56:04.360 --> 1:56:06.160 when I start playing something and go, oh, what's that 1:56:06.200 --> 1:56:08.200 I got to I should make a song out of that? Right, 1:56:08.520 --> 1:56:11.080 And that's a beautiful thing. That's that's my that's what 1:56:11.120 --> 1:56:14.560 I want to feel. But it's also almost impossible for 1:56:14.600 --> 1:56:16.800 me not to be kind of like looking for the opportunity, 1:56:17.200 --> 1:56:21.680 you know, just to be and there, you know, and 1:56:21.720 --> 1:56:25.560 there's a, there's a there's a I I just don't 1:56:25.560 --> 1:56:28.120 really understand the idea of hobbies the way other people do, 1:56:28.200 --> 1:56:30.240 because everything I've ever had as a as a demi 1:56:30.280 --> 1:56:31.400 hobby has turned into a. 1:56:32.000 --> 1:56:34.840 Job of something you know and what books do you read? 1:56:36.080 --> 1:56:39.960 Well? I kind of vacillate between different things right now. 1:56:39.960 --> 1:56:44.320 I just I've just gone through a big Ted Chang phase. 1:56:44.440 --> 1:56:49.120 You know, the sci fi writer. He's absolutely fantastic. And 1:56:49.520 --> 1:56:53.240 I let's say, I just read James the you know, 1:56:53.320 --> 1:57:00.640 the Personal Ever book, and I'm I'm just finished now 1:57:01.160 --> 1:57:04.240 one called Same Bed, Different Dreams, which which is sort 1:57:04.240 --> 1:57:07.840 of a broadened my understanding of the Korean War and 1:57:07.920 --> 1:57:10.640 Korean history quite a lot. Every once in a while, 1:57:10.680 --> 1:57:15.200 I go through a uh a non fiction phase like 1:57:15.640 --> 1:57:18.200 have you have you been? Have you read? If anyone 1:57:18.200 --> 1:57:19.560 builds it, everyone dies. 1:57:20.040 --> 1:57:20.200 No. 1:57:21.120 --> 1:57:25.080 Well, it's it's about AI, obviously, and I find it 1:57:25.200 --> 1:57:28.879 very I find it shockingly convincing. It's very well written. 1:57:29.320 --> 1:57:32.040 I there are many there there are many arguments to 1:57:32.120 --> 1:57:35.840 the contrary, but it's it's it's but I recommend it 1:57:35.840 --> 1:57:40.440 as a good read. And uh, I don't know. I 1:57:40.640 --> 1:57:43.720 I I've been doing a lot of audiobooks recently too, 1:57:43.720 --> 1:57:45.400 because if there's a lot of driving back and forth 1:57:45.440 --> 1:57:49.080 between La and Santa Barbara and I, when I'm not 1:57:49.200 --> 1:57:50.880 in love with a new band or a new a 1:57:50.880 --> 1:57:54.040 new uh new piece of music, an audiobook is a 1:57:54.040 --> 1:57:55.080 good way to pass that time. 1:57:55.720 --> 1:57:57.000 And what's your take on AI? 1:58:00.520 --> 1:58:04.440 It's very complicated. I mostly like, I think it's inevitable. 1:58:04.520 --> 1:58:07.000 So it's it's sort of like it's it's like what's 1:58:07.040 --> 1:58:09.640 your take on streaming circa ten years ago? You know, 1:58:09.640 --> 1:58:11.440 it's sort of like, what are you gonna stop it? Like, 1:58:11.480 --> 1:58:14.480 it's not like the major labels thinking they can sue 1:58:14.480 --> 1:58:17.240 it out of existence is crazy. Like it's coming. It's coming, 1:58:17.280 --> 1:58:19.120 and it can do all the things you're worried it 1:58:19.160 --> 1:58:22.840 can do. And so how quickly will we adapt? And 1:58:23.080 --> 1:58:26.720 what will it mean for creativity? You know, it's already 1:58:26.720 --> 1:58:30.760 the case. I think that like people are just even 1:58:31.080 --> 1:58:36.600 bands like in our echelon, are re recording things that 1:58:36.640 --> 1:58:39.120 they demoed using AI. They just demo in an AI 1:58:39.280 --> 1:58:42.280 and then and then record like and I to me, 1:58:43.040 --> 1:58:49.920 it just it SAPs all of the joy out of 1:58:49.960 --> 1:58:53.200 it for me. Uh, Like the idea that you that 1:58:53.280 --> 1:58:58.840 you could create something more efficiently and also without any 1:58:58.880 --> 1:59:02.600 of the joy of creation, sort of like, well, then 1:59:02.600 --> 1:59:06.480 what's the point, you know now, I but I do understand, 1:59:06.560 --> 1:59:09.400 like as a as a as a person, you know, 1:59:09.800 --> 1:59:13.160 as the director of a of a you know, relatively 1:59:14.520 --> 1:59:19.160 high budget feature film. If if if my choice were 1:59:19.200 --> 1:59:22.520 to make this really difficult shot out in the middle 1:59:22.520 --> 1:59:25.640 of the wilderness, in this incredibly beautiful place that's going 1:59:25.720 --> 1:59:28.160 to be really expensive and really hard to do, or 1:59:28.280 --> 1:59:31.840 do it all in ai I I would want to 1:59:31.880 --> 1:59:34.240 do the former, and my film would require that I 1:59:34.240 --> 1:59:36.920 do the latter. You just can't waste you can't waste 1:59:36.920 --> 1:59:39.160 all the money to do the thing and not pay 1:59:39.200 --> 1:59:42.120 every you know, like you you have to make everything 1:59:42.160 --> 1:59:45.480 in the most efficient way possible and under circumstances like that. 1:59:45.880 --> 1:59:51.040 And it's hard to know where that how to flip 1:59:51.080 --> 1:59:53.560 that switch when you get back down to sitting in 1:59:53.600 --> 1:59:56.280 a room with the three your three lifelong friends trying 1:59:56.320 --> 1:59:59.160 to make music, you know, and it's hard to know 1:59:59.480 --> 2:00:01.200 what to do when you flip yourself onto the other 2:00:01.240 --> 2:00:03.800 side and just say, now I'm not caring about what 2:00:03.840 --> 2:00:07.240 I make. I'm caring about what I consume. Like you know, 2:00:07.800 --> 2:00:10.360 if you don't know it was made by AI. Does 2:00:10.400 --> 2:00:12.920 it matter to you, like if it still moves your soul? 2:00:13.840 --> 2:00:14.440 Who cares? 2:00:14.560 --> 2:00:14.760 Right? 2:00:15.360 --> 2:00:18.040 Like that scares the living shit out of it. But 2:00:18.120 --> 2:00:22.320 I also believe it's it's possible, you know, like there's 2:00:22.360 --> 2:00:26.960 no I'm not enough of I am enough for romantic 2:00:27.000 --> 2:00:28.840 to want to spend my life doing this and enough 2:00:28.880 --> 2:00:31.480 for rationalists to be like, yeah, I'm sure that the 2:00:31.560 --> 2:00:35.360 AI can mimic the types of things we're doing well 2:00:35.480 --> 2:00:38.760 enough to be good at it. Like there's no I know, 2:00:38.920 --> 2:00:42.080 no guitarists who learn guitar by reading right, you learn 2:00:42.160 --> 2:00:46.280 like everybody heard a guitar and mimicked it. That's all 2:00:46.320 --> 2:00:47.520 AI is doing, you know. 2:00:48.960 --> 2:00:52.160 Yes, but AI cannot come up with the idea for 2:00:52.200 --> 2:00:55.760 the treadmill video yet. Well, according to you know the 2:00:55.800 --> 2:00:58.400 experts I read in the paper, not that diamond expert, 2:00:58.960 --> 2:01:02.520 they say any level of being a sentient being is 2:01:02.520 --> 2:01:03.880 at least thirty years off. 2:01:05.160 --> 2:01:08.879 You should you should read the other books too, Okay, Okay, 2:01:10.080 --> 2:01:12.040 I hope, I hope you're right. I hope you're right. 2:01:12.680 --> 2:01:17.800 My concern like I worry for the creative industries, but 2:01:17.840 --> 2:01:20.440 I worry about them actually less than every everything else 2:01:20.800 --> 2:01:24.800 because like, why would you hire a paralegal right now, 2:01:25.000 --> 2:01:29.800 right like why would you like when even like wouldn't you, 2:01:30.280 --> 2:01:36.280 to be honest, trust an AI cancer diagnosis if if 2:01:36.280 --> 2:01:39.800 it's suitably well trained and as really good data inputs, 2:01:40.200 --> 2:01:43.760 Like all it's doing is really high level pattern recognition, 2:01:43.880 --> 2:01:47.120 and almost every job that humans do is really high 2:01:47.200 --> 2:01:50.400 level pattern recognition. Yes, so is creativity, right. 2:01:50.360 --> 2:01:53.400 Yeah, okay, but just staying since we're talking about the 2:01:53.520 --> 2:01:58.440 hallucination rate is extremely high in terms of lawyers. They're 2:01:58.440 --> 2:02:01.200 getting busted on a regular basis where they have AI 2:02:01.440 --> 2:02:05.280 right there briefs, then the judge reads it. No such 2:02:05.360 --> 2:02:06.280 case exists. 2:02:07.920 --> 2:02:10.960 Oh I'm not look, I'm not a booster. I'm scared 2:02:11.000 --> 2:02:11.280 of shit. 2:02:11.440 --> 2:02:15.200 No, no, no, I'm looking at it. I think it's inevitable. Okay, 2:02:15.400 --> 2:02:21.440 but I think the paranoia is not warranted. If it 2:02:21.560 --> 2:02:26.440 is something simply zero's in one's digits programming, it is 2:02:26.600 --> 2:02:30.920 proven that it works extremely well as soon as you 2:02:31.040 --> 2:02:35.879 get to conceptual things and thinking. You know, the previous 2:02:35.960 --> 2:02:40.360 version of chatch EPT was chatch you know three that 2:02:40.480 --> 2:02:43.320 hallucinated more than two. I might have the numbers wrong. 2:02:43.680 --> 2:02:46.240 And the latest version that got some of the hallucination down. 2:02:46.680 --> 2:02:50.480 You have uh elon musks, which he tweaks one way 2:02:50.560 --> 2:02:53.960 or another. You know the way this stuff works. I 2:02:54.000 --> 2:02:57.560 don't want to be a louttite and say it can't 2:02:57.600 --> 2:03:03.880 be right, but I believe it's a tool. As I say, 2:03:03.920 --> 2:03:06.200 at this point in time and the way it works, 2:03:06.800 --> 2:03:09.040 there is no way it can take a great leap 2:03:09.120 --> 2:03:13.200 forward conceptually and artistically. That is still with the artists. 2:03:13.200 --> 2:03:16.520 You're talk about learning how to play the guitar. Yes, 2:03:17.200 --> 2:03:19.839 this is something from my generation. A lot of people 2:03:20.440 --> 2:03:23.200 spend time in bedrooms learning how to play, and you 2:03:23.240 --> 2:03:26.000 have people today who can barely play, who promote themselves 2:03:26.400 --> 2:03:30.080 saying listen to me all over the internet. Okay, but 2:03:30.200 --> 2:03:32.760 I am savvy enough to know that the new tools 2:03:32.800 --> 2:03:36.760 can be used in a new way, not really as 2:03:36.880 --> 2:03:40.000 replacement of what we have, but as a stepping stone 2:03:40.080 --> 2:03:40.920 to the next place. 2:03:43.200 --> 2:03:48.480 Yes, I I think I agree with everything you've just said. 2:03:49.320 --> 2:03:52.000 I don't have any way of predicting how fast it 2:03:52.040 --> 2:03:55.240 moves or what it can do eventually. I hope you're right. 2:03:56.240 --> 2:03:58.840 I'm because I'm old enough to be scared of change, right, 2:03:59.200 --> 2:04:03.120 Because I like I I like making the things I 2:04:03.280 --> 2:04:05.960 make and I like. I like the constraints i'm up against. 2:04:06.040 --> 2:04:07.760 I like the tools I've gotten good at and I 2:04:07.760 --> 2:04:12.880 don't and I'm not I'm not looking for you know, like, 2:04:13.320 --> 2:04:20.240 even if the street the attention industry isn't it's a lottery, 2:04:20.360 --> 2:04:22.640 you know, like it feels it feels like, well. 2:04:22.440 --> 2:04:24.800 Well, I wouldn't say it's a lottery. I'd say it's 2:04:24.800 --> 2:04:27.240 a tower of Babbel, but not a lottery. 2:04:27.640 --> 2:04:30.160 Okay, I guess I mean in terms of in terms 2:04:30.200 --> 2:04:34.480 of how music works with it, it's sort of like 2:04:34.840 --> 2:04:40.240 it hits our our our memes, you know it. Hits 2:04:40.240 --> 2:04:42.840 are are like a thing that spins up out of 2:04:42.880 --> 2:04:48.800 a out of the mailstrom of attention on on social 2:04:48.840 --> 2:04:51.880 media in a way that it's much hard like it 2:04:51.960 --> 2:04:55.640 doesn't Not that I haven't understood how culture works entirely, 2:04:55.680 --> 2:05:01.160 but it's very hard to understand how how art interfaces 2:05:01.200 --> 2:05:05.200 with that anymore. For me, that's already hard enough without 2:05:05.240 --> 2:05:06.480 it without putting in. 2:05:06.480 --> 2:05:09.640 Oh, okay, what do we know? Prior to maybe twenty 2:05:09.840 --> 2:05:14.080 twelve or so, you could be pretty sure that if 2:05:14.080 --> 2:05:17.840 something was great, it would surface. I'm not sure that's 2:05:17.880 --> 2:05:18.879 the case anymore. 2:05:19.400 --> 2:05:21.200 Okay, I agree with that I'm not even sure I 2:05:21.200 --> 2:05:22.800 agree with that prior to twenty twelve, but. 2:05:23.320 --> 2:05:25.560 There's some period along the time. But let's I don't 2:05:25.560 --> 2:05:30.240 want to argue, you know whatever. However, there are very 2:05:30.320 --> 2:05:35.280 few great things out there, and if you find something great, 2:05:35.880 --> 2:05:39.960 you want to tell everybody about it. Okay. It can 2:05:40.040 --> 2:05:44.720 be as simple as a one off Gangnam Style, or 2:05:44.760 --> 2:05:48.160 it can be a whole ovuh whatever you however you 2:05:48.200 --> 2:05:53.160 pronounce oeuvre okay, And they're different things. And I think 2:05:53.640 --> 2:05:58.839 because of the focus on money as opposed to art, 2:05:59.080 --> 2:06:02.520 people are constantly bitching I'm not making enough money. I mean, 2:06:02.560 --> 2:06:04.840 I can go on about this. You know, if you 2:06:04.960 --> 2:06:08.360 were trying to get a record deal in the sixties 2:06:09.200 --> 2:06:13.280 and you didn't sing, well, everybody say, well, what's up 2:06:13.280 --> 2:06:16.360 with this? Or or like you'd have to be Bob, 2:06:16.440 --> 2:06:18.240 don't you have to be like the best writer of 2:06:18.320 --> 2:06:21.600 all time? Whereas today we have bands they're not great 2:06:21.600 --> 2:06:24.120 writers and they're not great singers, and they're wondering why 2:06:24.160 --> 2:06:26.800 they're not getting noticed by the said, did you watch 2:06:26.840 --> 2:06:29.120 the TV show Adolescens? 2:06:29.760 --> 2:06:31.600 No, but I've heard great things about it. 2:06:32.920 --> 2:06:35.920 Well, it's a type of thing. If you see it, 2:06:36.600 --> 2:06:39.880 you want to talk to other people about it. Now. 2:06:39.960 --> 2:06:45.160 It's interesting to me because it being on Netflix, where 2:06:45.160 --> 2:06:48.280 they drop it all at once, is supposed to go 2:06:48.360 --> 2:06:53.320 over time. It didn't get the mind share of White Lotus, 2:06:53.360 --> 2:06:58.240 even though when White Lotus finished more people had seen Adolescens. 2:06:58.920 --> 2:07:02.880 So I mean, listen, there's so many issues there, publicity, 2:07:03.320 --> 2:07:06.880 mind share, how you measure it. All I know is 2:07:07.440 --> 2:07:10.480 if you say the word adolescence, someone's going to have 2:07:10.520 --> 2:07:13.520 a reaction, whether they saw it, liked it, didn't like it, 2:07:13.920 --> 2:07:17.120 like the way it was made, or you know, are 2:07:17.160 --> 2:07:20.360 not interested. Whereas I can name twenty things off the 2:07:20.360 --> 2:07:22.240 top of my head that even you were going to say, 2:07:22.240 --> 2:07:24.760 I had no idea what you're talking about, and I 2:07:24.800 --> 2:07:27.240 can't say, you know, well, if you check it out, 2:07:27.400 --> 2:07:29.640 it's gonna be phenomenal. I mean, I can talk about 2:07:29.640 --> 2:07:32.000 adolescents and say that's phenomenal. You may or may not 2:07:32.200 --> 2:07:36.800 like it, but we're all looking for those things and 2:07:36.880 --> 2:07:39.920 those things that you're gonna get me going here, those 2:07:40.000 --> 2:07:45.760 things have been buried under a tsunami of hype and reaction. Okay, 2:07:46.360 --> 2:07:49.040 I have a different feeling about social media. Let me 2:07:49.120 --> 2:07:53.400 just make it the Internet, which then blends into social media. Man, 2:07:53.480 --> 2:07:56.360 if I could connect with all these like minded people 2:07:56.360 --> 2:07:59.360 in high school, what would have been better? Sure there 2:07:59.400 --> 2:08:02.240 would be etcetera. But there's always bullying and parents can't 2:08:02.280 --> 2:08:06.280 protect bullying whatever, et cetera, et cetera. But I can 2:08:06.400 --> 2:08:10.160 talk to you virtually, I can reach people all around 2:08:10.200 --> 2:08:12.760 the world. Does it come at a cost? The example 2:08:12.800 --> 2:08:16.880 I always use, you're a little young. Prior to air 2:08:16.960 --> 2:08:21.360 conditioning in every car, cars came with vent windows. Once 2:08:21.400 --> 2:08:24.360 every car had air conditioning, they got rid of the 2:08:24.440 --> 2:08:28.960 vent windows for cost control. Then windows were great, but 2:08:29.040 --> 2:08:32.400 air conditioning is a lot better. So with every step 2:08:32.480 --> 2:08:36.720 forward there is somewhat of a loss. The other thing 2:08:36.800 --> 2:08:39.800 is you say, listen, I you know, just living through 2:08:39.800 --> 2:08:44.440 this whole napster thing. Change is tough, and I'm someone 2:08:44.480 --> 2:08:48.760 who doesn't like change in many ways, but it's happening. 2:08:49.440 --> 2:08:51.920 And it's same thing with AI. I mean, the best 2:08:51.920 --> 2:08:55.160 thing I've heard about AI is we can decide whatever 2:08:55.160 --> 2:08:58.160 we want to do with restrictions in America. That doesn't 2:08:58.160 --> 2:09:00.720 apply to China. They're gonna do whatever they want on anyway. 2:09:01.040 --> 2:09:03.320 Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, I'm not before I get into 2:09:03.320 --> 2:09:09.360 AI restrictions like when, but but suicide ras and teens 2:09:09.360 --> 2:09:11.400 go up as soon as they get social media. 2:09:12.560 --> 2:09:14.760 You know, this is just like I don't want to 2:09:14.800 --> 2:09:19.000 sound like a right winger here, but the data can 2:09:19.080 --> 2:09:22.680 be interpreted multiple ways. They had the guy I said, 2:09:22.800 --> 2:09:25.760 I forget his name, he's the anti social media guy. 2:09:26.120 --> 2:09:29.480 A lot of this right, A lot of this stuff 2:09:30.040 --> 2:09:33.240 is the way the data is parsed. You know, they've 2:09:33.280 --> 2:09:35.720 been studies saying no, they're really social media doesn't have 2:09:35.840 --> 2:09:40.000 a negative effect. Really, Okay, yes, absolutely, but I wish 2:09:40.080 --> 2:09:43.080 I had it at my fingertips. Okay, but I'm not 2:09:43.120 --> 2:09:44.480 pulling it out of my ass. 2:09:44.680 --> 2:09:47.120 Okay, but now I get that. But do you do? 2:09:47.360 --> 2:09:50.400 Do you personally when you're on social media? You don't 2:09:50.440 --> 2:09:54.160 feel that poll of just like that dopamine another thing 2:09:54.160 --> 2:09:55.920 to look at, another thing to look You don't you don't. 2:09:55.920 --> 2:09:59.880 Wait a second, Wait a second. You went on a 2:10:00.040 --> 2:10:05.920 about emotion connection. If you get a sponsor you want 2:10:06.520 --> 2:10:11.480 to have in the production, you make a connection where 2:10:11.560 --> 2:10:14.200 the audience can connect with the maker and see all 2:10:14.200 --> 2:10:17.240 the stuff is. Suppose something that's fast and flat, they 2:10:17.280 --> 2:10:21.000 saw it. Whatever, let's just talk TikTok because it's a 2:10:21.080 --> 2:10:28.120 dominant platform. Okay, are there influencers on TikTok who are 2:10:28.480 --> 2:10:33.960 hawking stuff, who are sold out to the max. Absolutely, Okay, 2:10:34.520 --> 2:10:38.960 there is raw humanity there when I see people across 2:10:39.000 --> 2:10:43.440 the country testifying about their stories and here that I 2:10:43.640 --> 2:10:47.959 love that. In addition, there's a lot of informational stuff. Okay, 2:10:48.760 --> 2:10:54.440 but the raw humanity on TikTok is not evidenced in 2:10:54.560 --> 2:11:00.480 the superhero movies and the Spotify top fifty. Okay, so 2:11:02.320 --> 2:11:04.880 that for me, you know, this is like the New 2:11:04.960 --> 2:11:09.880 York Times. Okay, they are constantly listen, it's the best 2:11:09.960 --> 2:11:12.400 we have. I'm a subscriber or whatever. But they're constantly 2:11:12.440 --> 2:11:17.200 anti technology. All they're saying an infinitum is put the 2:11:17.240 --> 2:11:20.160 phone down. Are you fucking kidding me? The phone is 2:11:20.200 --> 2:11:23.240 the best thing that ever happened. I can connect with 2:11:23.280 --> 2:11:27.960 anybody anytime I have all this information. Do I like 2:11:28.040 --> 2:11:31.800 it when I go to dinner and somebody's on the phone. No, Okay, 2:11:32.080 --> 2:11:36.400 I'm not saying it's perfect. But these are people, these 2:11:36.400 --> 2:11:41.160 are baby boomers and gen xers representing the largest percentage 2:11:41.160 --> 2:11:45.800 of the population. We're very self satisfied saying they know better. 2:11:46.200 --> 2:11:48.000 And the other thing is I grew up in the 2:11:48.000 --> 2:11:50.640 era of television. It was called the idiot Box and 2:11:50.760 --> 2:11:55.480 a lot of it was junkie. Okay, but didn't stop 2:11:55.520 --> 2:12:00.560 the kids from watching. Yeah. 2:12:01.000 --> 2:12:05.600 I my experience of kids with social media is not 2:12:06.440 --> 2:12:08.320 It is not that that it makes them feel connected 2:12:08.320 --> 2:12:11.320 instead of make them feel disconnected, because they're not. They're not. 2:12:11.640 --> 2:12:14.280 They're not. It's not one to one and it's not 2:12:14.440 --> 2:12:16.760 in person and it's not human. It's one to many 2:12:17.200 --> 2:12:21.080 and it is it's judge yourself against this because the 2:12:21.120 --> 2:12:23.720 algorithm is sending it to you. I agree when when 2:12:23.720 --> 2:12:24.640 social media. 2:12:24.920 --> 2:12:28.880 A lot of what you're saying is true and Instagram 2:12:29.000 --> 2:12:34.000 is more fomo look at me, et cetera. But I 2:12:34.080 --> 2:12:37.640 went to public high school, not gigantic, but not small, 2:12:37.760 --> 2:12:42.720 sixteen hundred people. There was a stratification. There were the jocks, 2:12:42.880 --> 2:12:45.800 there were the popular people. On the other hand, there 2:12:45.840 --> 2:12:48.200 were real nerds, people who had no friends, not what 2:12:48.240 --> 2:12:52.200 they call nerds today. Okay, yeah, finding your like minded 2:12:52.280 --> 2:12:56.080 people was difficult to be able to go online and 2:12:56.160 --> 2:12:58.680 find all these like minded people. 2:12:59.240 --> 2:13:04.040 Is the dages, Well, but I just playing Devil's advocate here. 2:13:04.120 --> 2:13:06.560 Finding the like minded people was difficult, and then they 2:13:06.560 --> 2:13:09.320 meant some like in the same way that finding the 2:13:09.360 --> 2:13:11.600 song that you loved was difficult back in the day, 2:13:11.720 --> 2:13:14.240 but but boy, your relationship tool there was a lot 2:13:14.280 --> 2:13:16.120 more when you went to Tower Records and you bought it. 2:13:16.520 --> 2:13:21.360 And I I'm not I'm I just I think the community. 2:13:21.440 --> 2:13:24.200 I think physical communities are very different than digital ones. 2:13:24.520 --> 2:13:28.120 And I think echo chambers are a dangerous thing sometimes, 2:13:28.400 --> 2:13:34.320 so like it, especially if the echo chamber is set 2:13:34.320 --> 2:13:37.720 in motion at the same time that your brain is 2:13:37.760 --> 2:13:41.440 still developing. Like, I think it's pretty hard to argue 2:13:41.480 --> 2:13:46.640 that that, you know, adolescent female brain should be fed 2:13:46.720 --> 2:13:50.160 lots and lots of pictures of of you know, the 2:13:50.200 --> 2:13:51.760 swimsuit issue. 2:13:53.240 --> 2:13:55.600 Well, needless to say, you can just google that stuff. 2:13:56.120 --> 2:13:58.840 Okay, sure, but that's but that's different than that than 2:13:58.960 --> 2:14:02.880 not having an algorithm that specifically picks it for you. 2:14:02.960 --> 2:14:09.839 That is, like, these algorithms are designed for our attention, 2:14:10.080 --> 2:14:12.200 and they were. 2:14:12.560 --> 2:14:15.400 What you're talking about is a very serious issue, and 2:14:15.440 --> 2:14:22.800 it is problematic. This may sound too adjacent, but when 2:14:22.840 --> 2:14:26.960 I grew up, my parents were not about restrictions. When 2:14:26.960 --> 2:14:30.400 I grew up, that's when the movie reading started. Okay, 2:14:30.920 --> 2:14:35.240 it's like my parents were not protective, and that's the 2:14:35.280 --> 2:14:39.440 background that I come from, and social media is it's 2:14:39.480 --> 2:14:44.520 beyond that. But the protection of children to this level, 2:14:44.520 --> 2:14:49.080 it's like a friend of mine, his nephew okay, even 2:14:49.120 --> 2:14:52.480 went to private school and was complaining to the mother 2:14:52.480 --> 2:14:55.640 about bullying, and the mother went to the principal. I 2:14:55.800 --> 2:14:59.400 guarantee you that had no effect, if anything, that the 2:14:59.480 --> 2:15:03.560 kid ended up of course, because this is the nature 2:15:03.800 --> 2:15:09.520 of life. You cannot protect people from the nature of life. Okay, 2:15:10.080 --> 2:15:13.920 And let's let's let's use the example John. I don't 2:15:13.960 --> 2:15:16.360 want to get too many crazy things. Some people are 2:15:16.400 --> 2:15:19.680 just crazy. Some people are just prone. Some of the 2:15:19.680 --> 2:15:24.240 best raised kids become drug addicts. Okay. And I don't 2:15:24.280 --> 2:15:26.120 want to throw the baby out with the bathroom and 2:15:26.160 --> 2:15:30.160 the ongoing paranoia with you know, it's amongst the classes 2:15:30.200 --> 2:15:34.839 in power, whether it be AI, the smartphone, social media, 2:15:35.320 --> 2:15:39.560 it's all negative when we see, you know, in foreign 2:15:39.680 --> 2:15:43.880 countries that gen z is bringing down the government using 2:15:43.960 --> 2:15:46.800 these platforms. I don't want to oversimplify it and make 2:15:46.840 --> 2:15:51.880 it twenty ten in the Arab spring. But I guess 2:15:53.560 --> 2:15:57.320 the narrative is the one you were uttering. The question 2:15:57.600 --> 2:16:03.680 becomes does the narrative reflect what is really happening? I 2:16:03.720 --> 2:16:07.280 mean all these anti technology, all this other stuff. If 2:16:07.280 --> 2:16:12.000 we were to the classic case here is they wanted 2:16:12.040 --> 2:16:15.640 to get rid of poornography. This is a true story 2:16:16.200 --> 2:16:21.640 on the cable systems in Utah, and the law was 2:16:21.720 --> 2:16:26.560 community standards. Well, they did the research. More people in 2:16:26.680 --> 2:16:30.400 Utah were watching porn on television than in other states, 2:16:30.920 --> 2:16:35.840 so they couldn't ban it. So the question becomes other 2:16:35.920 --> 2:16:39.720 than the people screaming loudest, what are people really doing? 2:16:42.600 --> 2:16:45.120 You would know better than I for sure, and I 2:16:45.959 --> 2:16:53.439 definitely don't like I am not a big crusader on technology, 2:16:53.440 --> 2:16:56.600 and frankly, like you know, it would be an incredibly 2:16:56.680 --> 2:17:01.240 strange and hypocritical position for me, like the the YouTube 2:17:01.280 --> 2:17:09.840 guy to to to to get angry at new platforms 2:17:09.920 --> 2:17:15.560 just for existing. I what my like to bring it 2:17:15.760 --> 2:17:17.760 to bring it back off of the precipice of sort 2:17:17.800 --> 2:17:19.760 of like where is culture going? And what is what 2:17:19.920 --> 2:17:22.520 is the whole world doing? Just back to like my 2:17:22.600 --> 2:17:26.840 own life. I I like investing lots and lots of 2:17:26.920 --> 2:17:33.279 time in one piece of art that I think is transcended. Okay, yeah, 2:17:33.400 --> 2:17:36.280 that's pretty much the opposite of what works on social 2:17:36.320 --> 2:17:41.880 media these days. 2:17:45.760 --> 2:17:48.720 One thing I don't believe in is the short attention span. 2:17:49.840 --> 2:17:52.720 I believe people have incredible shit directors with they used 2:17:52.760 --> 2:17:55.280 detectors even what they used to watch, it wouldn't people 2:17:55.360 --> 2:17:58.879 are binging, streaming television, they're watching All the Friends twenty four. 2:17:59.120 --> 2:18:01.400 How short of it is henshon spin can you have? 2:18:02.160 --> 2:18:06.560 If people find something is great there, they have unlimited 2:18:06.600 --> 2:18:09.680 amount of time to dedicate it to it. That's what 2:18:09.800 --> 2:18:13.160 your fans are doing. You're saying, they are tapped into 2:18:13.240 --> 2:18:17.160 your mind. They go deep. This is not someone who 2:18:17.280 --> 2:18:19.680 heard something in the Spotify top fifty has to go 2:18:19.760 --> 2:18:22.280 to so far and you know, go to the show 2:18:22.320 --> 2:18:25.120 and buy merch and then think about something else. They're 2:18:25.240 --> 2:18:30.160 living for this. In addition, you're not in the Spotify 2:18:30.160 --> 2:18:33.680 top fifty, and that that means we have the luxury 2:18:33.959 --> 2:18:37.879 of all these other things that can surface. Now. We 2:18:38.040 --> 2:18:41.160 used to have gatekeepers and we used to be able. 2:18:41.240 --> 2:18:44.080 It used to be more comprehensive. It's so incomprehensible how 2:18:44.120 --> 2:18:47.280 you find stuff, et cetera, et cetera. But people get 2:18:47.320 --> 2:18:49.600 to play and there will be a few steps. It 2:18:49.640 --> 2:18:52.960 will become more comprehensible. This is the flip side. As 2:18:53.080 --> 2:18:55.760 much as the older people who are anti technology. You 2:18:55.840 --> 2:18:58.840 have all the people who have who can complain. Now 2:18:59.440 --> 2:19:03.680 I'm not I'm not getting paid. That becomes the narrative. 2:19:03.840 --> 2:19:08.560 Daniel Leck is the devil. It's like it's too detached. 2:19:09.480 --> 2:19:13.320 As I say, if you create something that resonates with 2:19:13.400 --> 2:19:15.880 the public, you know there are plenty of things when 2:19:15.879 --> 2:19:18.920 they say many people consider it to be astral Weeks 2:19:18.920 --> 2:19:20.920 to be one of the best albums of all time. 2:19:21.280 --> 2:19:24.879 I own it. I've seen Van Morrison performing live. I 2:19:24.920 --> 2:19:29.840 don't agree. Okay, public didn't resonate with it. Some things 2:19:29.840 --> 2:19:32.440 of public resonates, some don't. And the em and sent 2:19:32.520 --> 2:19:35.600 stuff is such oh yeah, yeah, that was something I 2:19:35.640 --> 2:19:37.560 listened to. It's like it's the beanie babies. 2:19:39.240 --> 2:19:40.360 I think I agree with that. 2:19:41.200 --> 2:19:44.039 Okay, this is a much longer discussion. I'm gonna leave 2:19:44.040 --> 2:19:44.360 it here. 2:19:44.920 --> 2:19:46.640 A great deal. I'm enjoying it, A great deal. 2:19:46.680 --> 2:19:47.240 I am. 2:19:47.879 --> 2:19:50.200 I'm I'm I'm glad to hear like. It makes me 2:19:50.440 --> 2:19:52.960 excited to hear someone so pro I'm not because I 2:19:53.000 --> 2:19:56.960 don't feel like i'm particularly anti like I like, I 2:19:57.040 --> 2:20:00.720 feel I'm happy in my little community, Like I'm really 2:20:00.720 --> 2:20:03.000 happy that we've developed this relationship to our fans. It 2:20:03.040 --> 2:20:06.200 does not seem to be dependent on the ebbs and 2:20:06.240 --> 2:20:09.360 flows right like the and the and the and the 2:20:09.360 --> 2:20:13.440 the the platforms service serve it pretty well, I guess. 2:20:14.600 --> 2:20:16.400 I mean, I don't mean to keep dragging you through this, 2:20:16.480 --> 2:20:20.160 but like when we've put up a video as a 2:20:20.240 --> 2:20:24.280 music video and we put up the same video with 2:20:25.040 --> 2:20:27.879 factoids that you can read at the same time, the 2:20:27.959 --> 2:20:30.200 ones with the one with the factoids is what goes viral, 2:20:31.240 --> 2:20:34.200 I think, because that's what works on social media. Now, 2:20:34.200 --> 2:20:37.080 I'm not saying I'm just making the point that the 2:20:37.240 --> 2:20:44.400 platforms do that a different type of of thing resonates there. Right, 2:20:44.720 --> 2:20:49.160 I'm taking taking all value judgments out of it because 2:20:49.160 --> 2:20:52.039 it's not about like is it good or bad? But 2:20:52.120 --> 2:20:56.040 what I mean is that like that, if you want 2:20:56.120 --> 2:21:02.280 to develop a career on social media, what you're making 2:21:02.640 --> 2:21:08.840 is a lot of material that's very that's very repeatable, 2:21:09.240 --> 2:21:14.200 very quickly. It's all about I think you have multiple 2:21:14.240 --> 2:21:18.160 things there in order to survive with social media. It's 2:21:18.160 --> 2:21:22.440 a full time job and that's fucked up. Okay, but 2:21:23.000 --> 2:21:26.840 there's a lot of stuff that's lengthy whatever reason. 2:21:27.200 --> 2:21:32.360 Okay. The algorithm on TikTok found that I'm interested in 2:21:32.400 --> 2:21:38.080 car repair. Have I ever repaired one thing on my car? No? Okay, 2:21:39.360 --> 2:21:41.680 there are certain people I can tell you. There's Royalty 2:21:41.760 --> 2:21:47.560 Auto in Georgia, there's the Car Wizard. They have multiple things. 2:21:47.920 --> 2:21:50.480 It ends up being like fifteen or twenty minutes. I 2:21:50.600 --> 2:21:55.120 will watch or even Jay Leno's garage whatever. It's not 2:21:55.360 --> 2:21:59.920 hid and run. Are there people trying for hit and run? Yes, 2:22:00.480 --> 2:22:05.440 but you know as an artist, that's a different business, 2:22:05.440 --> 2:22:07.360 and you don't want to be in that business. You 2:22:07.400 --> 2:22:09.080 want to be in the blue sky business. 2:22:09.840 --> 2:22:13.840 Absolutely, But I also know that they at least Instagram stopped. 2:22:14.600 --> 2:22:17.760 You cannot put something over three minutes and have it 2:22:17.800 --> 2:22:22.560 shared algorithmic TikTok you can. But you know what they 2:22:22.600 --> 2:22:24.440 do to our videos. They put do not try this 2:22:24.520 --> 2:22:28.240 at home, which also keeps it off like their algorithm 2:22:28.280 --> 2:22:31.600 puts do not try the zero gravity video at home. 2:22:32.280 --> 2:22:33.960 What are you going to try? Who's going to try 2:22:33.959 --> 2:22:35.440 a zero gravity video at home? 2:22:37.240 --> 2:22:41.080 Well, I mean you made a video with meta, so 2:22:41.120 --> 2:22:46.440 there are limits to what you can say. And this 2:22:46.520 --> 2:22:51.280 is the thing right now. Is Apple winning by losing 2:22:51.320 --> 2:22:54.520 the AI war? Are they losing? If you look at 2:22:54.560 --> 2:22:57.000 the history of Apple and it was all Steve Jobs. 2:22:57.240 --> 2:23:02.640 They were late to every everything. Yeah, and then they won. Okay, 2:23:03.320 --> 2:23:06.520 So Mark Zucker has not invented anything in his life. 2:23:06.560 --> 2:23:10.000 Did invent Facebook, didn't invent Instagram, et cetera, et cetera, 2:23:10.360 --> 2:23:13.280 which is why they could come along with TikTok. Okay. 2:23:13.879 --> 2:23:17.640 So the only good thing about Instagram reels, which is 2:23:17.680 --> 2:23:21.040 not great but not terrible, is that you can play 2:23:21.120 --> 2:23:24.080 music at the same time. You can't do that with TikTok. 2:23:25.040 --> 2:23:28.920 But as I say, the other thing is we talk 2:23:29.000 --> 2:23:33.480 about this, the world is so broad and so amorphous. 2:23:35.520 --> 2:23:39.039 I mean, you're obviously in listen. I could talk about 2:23:39.080 --> 2:23:43.440 this for hours. I'm gonna stop because it's about you, 2:23:43.640 --> 2:23:49.039 not me. So when you when you do a podcast, 2:23:49.160 --> 2:23:51.760 you can you can have me and I'll I'll go 2:23:51.840 --> 2:23:52.360 on and on. 2:23:53.320 --> 2:23:55.760 It'll be a terrible podcast if I'm if I'm hosting, well, 2:23:55.760 --> 2:23:57.560 thank you. I really enjoyed it, appreciate it. 2:23:57.600 --> 2:23:59.920 No, I really you know, you're obviously a thinker in 2:24:00.080 --> 2:24:07.599 you're an artist in the intersection of what people don't understand. 2:24:07.640 --> 2:24:13.439 As I continue to go on, it's about conception. Execution 2:24:13.640 --> 2:24:18.600 is secondary to conception. So you can get twenty people 2:24:18.640 --> 2:24:22.000 together to write a song and make it perfect. It 2:24:22.000 --> 2:24:24.080 could be trump by something that someone came up with, 2:24:24.120 --> 2:24:28.760 an instant that touches people, and we live in a 2:24:28.800 --> 2:24:32.800 mercenary society where that people don't even recognize that. But 2:24:32.840 --> 2:24:35.680 that's the business you're in. How can I push it 2:24:35.800 --> 2:24:38.640 far enough that I get to a space You've said 2:24:38.640 --> 2:24:42.720 it very early. It's about the emotion and lenk iguan emotion. 2:24:43.240 --> 2:24:45.360 You can listen to people talk about hit music all 2:24:45.400 --> 2:24:48.080 day long. They're not going to even use the word emotion. 2:24:48.840 --> 2:24:52.040 It's true, it's true. I'm not going to say anything 2:24:52.040 --> 2:24:54.920 about AI before about whether or not it can ever 2:24:55.160 --> 2:24:56.959 get real emotions out of us. I think it's going 2:24:57.040 --> 2:24:58.600 to get real emotions out of us, and then we're 2:24:58.600 --> 2:25:00.880 going to be really confused. I mean, there are there 2:25:00.879 --> 2:25:03.440 are does, right, aren't there already? AI hits? 2:25:03.959 --> 2:25:06.400 Wait? Wait, hold on a second. First of all, they're 2:25:06.400 --> 2:25:09.400 not hits. If you look at the statistics, you know 2:25:09.480 --> 2:25:13.160 this is typical. I usually get more magazines than anybody 2:25:13.320 --> 2:25:16.560 I've ever known. I subscribe to the Apple News. There's 2:25:16.600 --> 2:25:21.760 so much clickbait there. Okay, it's like the record went 2:25:21.840 --> 2:25:26.440 to number one. Yeah, in Bulgarian Chance and Zanzibar. There's 2:25:26.480 --> 2:25:29.119 a chart for everything. You look at, how many people 2:25:29.680 --> 2:25:32.480 you know? There's a country one which also wasn't successful. 2:25:32.680 --> 2:25:35.560 But the woman wrote, has you know wrote the lyrics? 2:25:35.600 --> 2:25:41.039 Et cetera. Okay, so far they have songs. Okay, this 2:25:41.120 --> 2:25:47.000 is really going back. I was a big Beach Boys fan. However, 2:25:47.200 --> 2:25:50.280 big a Beach Boys fan you were, you could not 2:25:50.680 --> 2:25:55.240 predict California girls forget good vibrations. Okay, when you're a 2:25:55.320 --> 2:25:58.680 California girls, she said, this does not sound like what 2:25:58.879 --> 2:26:03.600 came before, with a lengthy intro. The way AI works 2:26:03.680 --> 2:26:08.480 is there's a query, it is sent out in a 2:26:08.560 --> 2:26:14.080 million different places, Everything comes back with data, and it 2:26:14.120 --> 2:26:17.720 assembles an answer. This is the whole thing about training 2:26:17.720 --> 2:26:21.039 in the model that shit that already exists. No. 2:26:21.160 --> 2:26:26.800 I get that it's definitionally at current it's definitionally copying. Yes, 2:26:28.080 --> 2:26:32.480 my What scares me about it long term is that 2:26:32.800 --> 2:26:37.200 what it's good at is pattern recognition, right, Okay, and 2:26:37.280 --> 2:26:42.240 so what it's currently doing is figuring out what patterns 2:26:42.240 --> 2:26:47.120 fit fit your query? Right. But if you are to extrapolate, 2:26:47.240 --> 2:26:50.000 like I don't think we're that many steps away. I 2:26:50.040 --> 2:26:52.560 hope you're right. I really really hope you're right, because 2:26:52.840 --> 2:26:55.280 that that's what that's the world I want to live in. 2:26:55.560 --> 2:26:58.600 But it seems to me that you can actually look 2:26:58.600 --> 2:27:02.440 at the at the twentieth century and and find a 2:27:02.520 --> 2:27:05.959 pattern in what broke the music industry, right what like 2:27:06.200 --> 2:27:09.320 you can go of course punk was doesn't come because 2:27:09.360 --> 2:27:10.959 as soon as as soon as you get this far 2:27:11.000 --> 2:27:15.440 into disco, you're gonna have something counter that, right, or 2:27:15.600 --> 2:27:17.760 you know, as soon as you've got this far into 2:27:18.520 --> 2:27:24.560 a racism, you're going to you're you're going to add 2:27:25.200 --> 2:27:28.240 actual pleasure to soul and hip hop too, right, Like 2:27:28.520 --> 2:27:32.039 you you can you can look at the the cultural 2:27:32.080 --> 2:27:35.119 dynamics and see the patterns playing out, and I would 2:27:36.200 --> 2:27:38.680 and if we can make if we can see that pattern, 2:27:39.120 --> 2:27:40.080 it can see that pattern. 2:27:40.680 --> 2:27:43.280 Right. Let me ask you this. Though we used to 2:27:43.320 --> 2:27:46.840 have a new sound every three to five years, since 2:27:46.920 --> 2:27:51.800 the turn of the century, we haven't had a new sound. Yeah, 2:27:52.040 --> 2:27:59.200 so the pattern doesn't exist. It's like uh, skew lines 2:27:59.720 --> 2:28:01.760 or if you really look at how you know, I'm 2:28:01.800 --> 2:28:04.280 not good on science. You know, the protons of the 2:28:04.320 --> 2:28:06.440 new time, they don't get around in circles. They bounce 2:28:06.480 --> 2:28:12.199 all around. Okay, I'm not saying that I have the answer. 2:28:12.760 --> 2:28:16.120 We have no homogeneity period, So there's no way to 2:28:16.160 --> 2:28:17.760 have a sound because they have everything. 2:28:18.160 --> 2:28:20.720 It's so what we have now is akin to religion. 2:28:21.240 --> 2:28:24.920 The religion is answers for the unknown. It's a little 2:28:24.920 --> 2:28:27.879 bit more than that, but that's the genesis. So we 2:28:28.040 --> 2:28:31.800 have a lot of people acting like they know in 2:28:31.959 --> 2:28:34.600 order to feel good about themselves. I don't want to 2:28:34.640 --> 2:28:37.280 make it about social media, but I'll use exactly. I 2:28:37.320 --> 2:28:40.840 hear negative stuff about TikTok all day long. My first 2:28:40.959 --> 2:28:46.600 question is have you been on the service? No, they've 2:28:46.600 --> 2:28:48.800 all not been on the service. You may hate it 2:28:48.840 --> 2:28:50.520 if you're on the service, but you you don't have 2:28:50.520 --> 2:28:52.720 any self, you don't have any knowledge, no experience. 2:28:53.879 --> 2:28:56.920 Well on that one, I mean, I'm much more Instagram 2:28:56.920 --> 2:29:00.320 than I am TikTok, but I find it incredibly it 2:29:00.360 --> 2:29:01.400 but it's not a good feeling. 2:29:01.600 --> 2:29:05.640 Wait, wait, it is addictive. I'm not saying it's not. 2:29:06.360 --> 2:29:10.920 Is that a good thing? No, but that's not the 2:29:10.959 --> 2:29:11.920 only thing that's there. 2:29:13.840 --> 2:29:15.959 I will then, then we have arrived at our point 2:29:16.000 --> 2:29:18.560 in perfect agreement. Because I do think like as a 2:29:18.600 --> 2:29:23.280 connector fantastic I have no problem with that with with 2:29:23.520 --> 2:29:26.840 with technology connecting us. I it's it's that I feel 2:29:26.840 --> 2:29:29.879 like it's disconnecting and I feel like it's it is 2:29:30.120 --> 2:29:33.360 it puts us into the into sort of you know, 2:29:33.440 --> 2:29:35.160 the classic thing you've heard over and over again, that 2:29:35.240 --> 2:29:38.280 you are, that you are the product. You know that 2:29:38.400 --> 2:29:41.280 your attention is what's being sold. And and I and 2:29:41.320 --> 2:29:43.680 I feel that because I can feel I got like 2:29:43.800 --> 2:29:47.040 I can feel the urge to pull my phone out 2:29:47.080 --> 2:29:50.440 because I need another hit of of I haven't gotten 2:29:50.440 --> 2:29:52.000 any emails that I want to read today. I got 2:29:52.000 --> 2:29:53.480 thirty that I don't want to deal with, but I 2:29:53.480 --> 2:29:55.120 haven't gotten any more that I want to read. But 2:29:55.200 --> 2:29:59.200 I but there's another platform where there's probably more, and 2:29:59.200 --> 2:30:01.640 and I can feel, I feel that pull to it, 2:30:01.680 --> 2:30:07.720 and it is addictive and and not devoid of inspiration. 2:30:07.760 --> 2:30:10.560 And I've also found tons and tons of inspiration and 2:30:10.560 --> 2:30:13.200 and and made real connections there. So it's not like 2:30:13.280 --> 2:30:16.000 it's definitely it's definitely not one or the other, but 2:30:16.320 --> 2:30:20.960 it is. But the dangers are real and and I 2:30:21.120 --> 2:30:22.800 and I and I what I want to do is 2:30:22.840 --> 2:30:25.200 believe like if we could cherry pick all the good 2:30:25.240 --> 2:30:29.240 stuff from what's there and and your version of what 2:30:29.360 --> 2:30:33.400 could be like that's that's wonderful. If if AI only 2:30:33.600 --> 2:30:37.920 it only acts as a more efficient tool that I 2:30:38.240 --> 2:30:41.080 than then that it's going to be a wonderful, wonderful thing. 2:30:41.440 --> 2:30:47.320 I I you know, like I've worked you know again, 2:30:47.680 --> 2:30:50.119 put put yourself in the position of a film director 2:30:50.280 --> 2:30:53.720 who who's on a tight budget and needs background music? 2:30:55.000 --> 2:30:57.600 How are you not going to use AI for them? Right? 2:30:58.320 --> 2:31:04.080 And you know we live we live through this with 2:31:04.320 --> 2:31:09.000 the drum machine? What did it reyield yield programmers? Yeah, 2:31:09.040 --> 2:31:10.360 you can use drum machine. 2:31:10.520 --> 2:31:14.040 But these guys who make a fortune programming the drum machine, well, 2:31:14.040 --> 2:31:16.760 it's not gonna it's not gonna be the If it's 2:31:16.760 --> 2:31:20.000 not gonna be the director, they're gonna hire somebody who 2:31:20.040 --> 2:31:22.920 puts in the right prompts to get the right. 2:31:23.160 --> 2:31:26.760 Oh well they're gonna hi there. But that's a much 2:31:26.800 --> 2:31:30.480 smaller industry that like there are those are the only 2:31:30.879 --> 2:31:35.080 the orchestral composition jobs left in the world, right is 2:31:35.120 --> 2:31:38.800 film film score? And and and I just came through that, right, 2:31:38.879 --> 2:31:40.959 And it's and they make a lot more money than 2:31:41.000 --> 2:31:42.360 I do. I'll tell you that it's like it's a 2:31:42.440 --> 2:31:47.280 it's a it for for for to hire a set 2:31:47.280 --> 2:31:50.480 of union violinists, and you know, to hire a union 2:31:50.560 --> 2:31:54.680 orchestra to play for six hours. Is you know that's 2:31:54.760 --> 2:31:57.640 that's several rock and roll albums worth of money right there, 2:31:57.920 --> 2:32:00.720 and that and that job will go. 2:32:00.840 --> 2:32:06.119 In without going down the rabbit hole of that. I'll 2:32:06.160 --> 2:32:11.640 just say one thing leading out all of what we 2:32:11.920 --> 2:32:16.040 just said. Pretty much, you have a device in your 2:32:16.200 --> 2:32:22.199 hand where everything is playing to you. How many times 2:32:22.240 --> 2:32:25.199 have I been in environments where I say I can't 2:32:25.200 --> 2:32:28.560 relate to these people. I can't talk to these people. 2:32:29.000 --> 2:32:34.520 But here on my device is stuff specially curated just 2:32:34.680 --> 2:32:39.400 for my interests? Is I say you have to you 2:32:39.480 --> 2:32:40.119 have to see it. 2:32:40.080 --> 2:32:42.080 Down And I do love that, but that also just 2:32:42.080 --> 2:32:44.600 stopped you from connecting with those people. Now you don't 2:32:44.640 --> 2:32:45.679 have to understand. 2:32:45.400 --> 2:32:50.040 Yes, but there's a fiction that everyone. Let's use it. 2:32:50.240 --> 2:32:54.440 Musicians as example. You know, I've met a lot of 2:32:54.480 --> 2:32:58.200 classic musicians. A lot of them can't talk to anybody. 2:32:58.600 --> 2:32:59.720 Oh yeah, we're the worst. 2:33:00.320 --> 2:33:02.920 They can play their instrument and that's how they connect 2:33:02.959 --> 2:33:06.360 with people, but they can't have a conversation. They can't 2:33:06.360 --> 2:33:09.480 do it. Okay, So all these people say, well, you 2:33:09.520 --> 2:33:11.160 got to meet face to face. There are a lot 2:33:11.160 --> 2:33:12.280 of people can't do that. 2:33:14.280 --> 2:33:14.800 Fair enough. 2:33:16.000 --> 2:33:18.039 Let's leave it at that, because it'll go out forever. 2:33:18.480 --> 2:33:20.879 David, I really enjoyed this thing. 2:33:20.959 --> 2:33:23.720 Okay, it's been great talk you do, great hearing about you. 2:33:23.720 --> 2:33:27.160 You're being in your insights and creativity. In any event, 2:33:27.320 --> 2:33:28.879 Thank you. Till next time. 2:33:29.440 --> 2:33:31.000 This is Bob Left sets