1 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 2: writing about true crime. 4 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 5 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 3: works some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 6 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 7 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 2: compelling true crimes. 8 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 9 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries. 10 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 11 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens. 12 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 13 00:00:38,280 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: This is buried bones. Hey, Paul, Right, Kate, how are 14 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: you doing? Just fine? 15 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 2: I was chatting offline with our producer Alexis, and she she. 16 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: Like you and I. 17 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: When she drives around she muses about what happens with 18 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,199 Speaker 2: murders in the area where she is, because I feel 19 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 2: like I see death everywhere, like in Austin, like somebody 20 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 2: died here, somebody died there. And she had wondered what 21 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 2: would happen if she found a dead body and what 22 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 2: would she do? You know, Like, for instance, I have 23 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,199 Speaker 2: a friend who was a rower. Okay, and every time 24 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 2: they would row on Ladybird Lake in Austin, they found 25 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 2: I think three or four times bodies in the water 26 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 2: and they never knew what to do. So if you 27 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 2: could do a little primer on our audience on what 28 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 2: I'm serious, like, what would you dood? You don't touch 29 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 2: the body? I'm assuming what if they're still alive, shouldn't 30 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 2: you do CPR? 31 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 3: I mean, it all depends on the context of the 32 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 3: circumstances of what they have stumbled across. But let's just 33 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 3: say there's a body that's laying on, you know, the 34 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 3: side of the road. You stop and you see this body. 35 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 3: I mean, there's bodies that are obviously dead. You don't 36 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 3: need to go touch this body. Stay away and call 37 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 3: law enforcement, have them come out. They're going to want 38 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 3: to take a statement from you in terms of what 39 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 3: you've observed, When did you observe this, when did you 40 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 3: get there, why you are there. But there are times 41 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 3: where you may have a fresh body and you are 42 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 3: unsure is this person alive or not? And I think 43 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 3: it's that is a personal choice. There's no mandate that 44 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 3: you must now attempt any life saving measures on this body. 45 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 3: It's still sort of the same process. Get emergency responders 46 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 3: out there as fast as possible. If you are somebody 47 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 3: that can go up and check to see is this 48 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 3: body still alive and are willing to you know, do 49 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 3: some you know first aid, some you know life state measures. Sure, 50 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 3: but the reality is is you want to get the 51 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 3: first responders out there as quickly as possible if you 52 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 3: suspect that that person is still alive. But in cases 53 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 3: of obvious death, the last thing we want is that 54 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 3: death scene to be contaminated by the witness, and so 55 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 3: it's best to just stay away. 56 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 2: How do first responders know how to not contaminate a 57 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: scene if you've got somebody there so you know. The 58 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 2: man on the beach in Australia is a really good example. 59 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 2: Remember we did that case and he put his arm 60 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 2: up and people weren't sure if he was passed out, 61 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 2: drunk or dead or alive. How do they know? The 62 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 2: ms and the firefighters? How do they come up on 63 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: a scene and know whether or not they are stepping 64 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 2: through footprints that they shouldn't step through, or removing clothing 65 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: that then is contaminated. Is it a judgment call? I've 66 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: always kind of wondered. 67 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 3: That first responders always contaminate a crime scene, no matter 68 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 3: how careful they are, if there is the thought that 69 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 3: you have somebody that is hurt and they need medical attention. 70 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 3: Life saving measures always come before preserving evidence. And so 71 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 3: it is typical for me to go out to a 72 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 3: crime scene in which fire paramedics has been in and 73 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 3: they have completely disrupted the scene as they are doing 74 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 3: their life saving measures. So I have to take into 75 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 3: account the actions that they do in order to be 76 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 3: able to further assess, you know, what is related to 77 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 3: the actual crime that occurred there. Yes, you know, they 78 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 3: could be trampling on shoe impressions, they could be removing 79 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 3: latent prince that the offender left behind as an example, 80 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 3: they're adding their own DNA to the crime scene. We 81 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 3: just have to account for that. There's no way around it. 82 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 3: But when it's a situation, you know, there are times, 83 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 3: let's say a welfare check happens and a deputy or 84 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 3: police officer goes inside the house, sees a person laying 85 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 3: on the floor, and maybe paramedics and fire are already 86 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 3: en route, and so when they come there, this officer 87 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 3: will say there's obvious signs of death. But now these 88 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 3: medical responders have to at least verify that. But they 89 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 3: are told, okay, just limit the number of people going in, 90 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 3: do the least amount you need to do to ensure 91 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 3: that that is actually a dead body, and then leave. 92 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 3: And then that officer or deputy records in their supplement 93 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 3: exactly what these paramedics and firefighters do. And oftentimes in 94 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 3: homicide cases, any of these medical personnel going into the 95 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,479 Speaker 3: crime scene for life saving measures, they're asked to right 96 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 3: reports about what they did, what they saw, so that's 97 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 3: added to the case file. 98 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 2: All of this speaks to the time period we're in now, 99 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 2: which is you have by a large responsible, knowledgeable investigators 100 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 2: responding to a crime scene the information, getting the forensic 101 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 2: evidence together, and presenting it to experts who can then 102 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 2: evaluate it. Where I'm taking you now is not this 103 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 2: time period. This is not the oldest case, but damn 104 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 2: close pretty old. This is from the seventeen thirties, and 105 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 2: it's a really interesting case because it comes down to 106 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 2: a woman who is accused of murder who might not 107 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 2: have done it, and she has a pretty good argument 108 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 2: for why. So that is a lot of mystery that 109 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: I'm putting out there. So let's just go ahead. 110 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: And set the scene. 111 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 2: So where we're going is seventeen hundreds London, and I 112 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 2: know you've been to London. I've been to London. It's 113 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 2: one of my most favorite places I've lived there. 114 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: And this is a. 115 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 2: Time period where I'm interested in exploring how women are 116 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,919 Speaker 2: perceived because normally I don't like to ruin who the 117 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 2: killer is, or in this case, who might have been 118 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 2: the killer. But I'm going to do it straight away 119 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 2: because we need to evaluate whether she did it, what 120 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 2: the chances are that she did it, and if her 121 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 2: defense is a feasible defense to you. So let's just 122 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 2: start with the main character here. Her name is Sarah 123 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 2: Malcolm and she was born in Ireland. Her father was 124 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,559 Speaker 2: English and her mother was Irish, and they go from 125 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 2: Dublin to then London, where they eventually settle. She comes 126 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 2: from a financially stable family. She has a good education 127 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 2: her mother, and this happens frequently. Everything is going well 128 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: until a parent dies, and this is probably about when 129 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 2: Sarah was in her late teens. Her mother died suddenly 130 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 2: and then her father decides he wants to go back 131 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 2: to Dublin, and Sarah is alone in London. This would 132 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 2: not have been uncommon. You know, she is of working 133 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 2: age and marrying age, so he takes off leaving her alone. 134 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: But this is a big shift for her because she 135 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: was well educated, she was well funded, and now now 136 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: she's a single woman and she didn't want to go 137 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 2: back to Ireland, so she starts working a couple of 138 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 2: different jobs. She's a server and a pub and she's 139 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 2: also a laundress and a housemaid for an irishman named 140 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 2: mister Carroll. They live in residences above the nearby ends 141 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 2: of Court, which is this historical legal society and an 142 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 2: educational institution, so this is a nice area. Sarah goes 143 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: back and forth between living at mister Carroll's house and 144 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 2: living at a home in shor Ditch where she stays often. 145 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 2: We don't know a lot about it, and know she 146 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 2: has a room in mister Carroll's house, so she sort 147 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 2: of goes back and forth. But again this is not 148 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,959 Speaker 2: an unusual arrangement for somebody her age in this time period. 149 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 2: She's a single woman, she's not married yet, she's not attached, 150 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: and she's just trying to make her way. She's socializing 151 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 2: with other young people in London, including some folks who 152 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 2: work with her at the Black Horse Inn pub. And 153 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 2: these are some not so great people with uns say reputations. 154 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 2: There's a pair of brothers named James and Thomas Alexander, 155 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 2: and there's a woman named Mary Tracy. You know what 156 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 2: I find interesting about reputations in the seventeen hundreds is 157 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 2: when they say unsavory, that could be somebody who pickpocketed 158 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 2: when they were ten. You know, they're not very specific 159 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 2: about what a dubious character would be in this time period, 160 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: but we can safely say these were people who had thieved. 161 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 1: In the past. 162 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 2: And these are not people I think her father would 163 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 2: have approved of. Sarah is having a hard time because 164 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 2: she's a single woman and she's struggling. She's struggling to 165 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 2: make ends meet. She's working two jobs, working at a 166 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 2: pub doing laundry and working for a man as kind 167 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 2: of a personal assistant. I think would have been difficult. 168 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: So not to defend her in any way. But this 169 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: group of misfits, James and Thomas and Mary and Sarah, 170 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 2: decide that they want to rob valuables from the residences 171 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 2: a the ends of the Court, which is where you 172 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 2: know she lives. This whole group thinks of this because 173 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 2: Sarah has access to the building because she has a 174 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 2: room with mister Carroll, who is in these residences. So 175 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 2: you know, they're looking at an array of really well 176 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 2: appointed residences that they can break into because Sarah. 177 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: Has a key. 178 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 3: She's the insider. 179 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: She's the insider. 180 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 2: So already this is, you know, a bad scene for Sarah, unfortunately, 181 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 2: and she's someone who it seems like is in a 182 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 2: pretty vulnerable position. But what she makes clear is I'm 183 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 2: agreeing to do this. I could use the money. I 184 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 2: am only the lookout. I am not doing anything else. 185 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 2: But we know that being the lookout is not such 186 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 2: a great idea. 187 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 3: And this is a common stance that suspects will take 188 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 3: is they realize that they are associated with the crime. 189 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 3: There's no way out of it. But what they do 190 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 3: is they make statements to minimize their involvement. So I 191 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 3: was only the lookout. I'm listening to this, you know, 192 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 3: and I'm hearing Sarah say this. You know, my immediate 193 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 3: thought is, Okay, were you really only the lookout or 194 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 3: are you just trying to minimize what your true role was. 195 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:17,079 Speaker 2: Absolutely so, this group says Sarah, who are we able 196 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 2: to rob first? And she says, I have a former 197 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 2: client who lives above the ends of the court. Her 198 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 2: name is Lydia Duncombe, and Duncombe is a very wealthy, 199 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 2: eighty year old widow. She is described as infirm, which 200 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,079 Speaker 2: you know you would think it means probably disabled, physically disabled, 201 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 2: and we don't know if it's a physical or a 202 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 2: mental decline or both, but whatever it is, she needs 203 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,920 Speaker 2: a caretaker. So she has a teenage caregiver named Anne 204 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 2: Price who lives with her. And we also have a 205 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 2: sixty year old woman named Elizabeth Harrison who lives in 206 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 2: the Duncombe home. So we've got three women. An eighty 207 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 2: year old who seems like somebody who is not going 208 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 2: to be able to defend yourself. You have a sixty 209 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 2: year old woman, and then you have this teenage caregiver, 210 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,839 Speaker 2: all living in this house that sounds like it's stock 211 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 2: full of a lot of valuable things, including money. So 212 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 2: you're talking about vulnerable victims here. 213 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 3: You have this residence, you have the vulnerable victims. Does 214 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 3: Sarah have the key to this residence? 215 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 2: I don't think there is a key. I think there 216 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 2: is a master key. To the door, to the front door. 217 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: But I'm not sure a lock, if they even use 218 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 2: the lock, would have been that common. So I think 219 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 2: getting access to the building was the important part. I'm 220 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 2: not sure that this is a situation where you're going 221 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,720 Speaker 2: to throw your shoulder against the door and it's going 222 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 2: to open up. I think it could already be open. 223 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 2: But let's proceed and I'll tell you a little bit more. 224 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 2: Sarah and the brothers, remember there's two young men, and 225 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 2: Mary Tracy organized this plan. They're going to hit the 226 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 2: Duncombe residents. Sarah has been in the house before. She 227 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 2: knows where the valuables are. We talk about that, you know, 228 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 2: do you know the layout? Of course it makes it 229 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 2: much easier. There are valuables in the trunk. And while 230 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 2: she is working in the building, which is February third 231 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 2: of seventeen thirty three, Sarah stops by to see Missus 232 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 2: duncom and of course it looks like she's trying to 233 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 2: case it. That's what we later find out is it 234 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 2: seems like she's trying to case it to see who's there. 235 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,839 Speaker 2: She says that she's there to visit Missus Harrison. So 236 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 2: Missus Harrison is the sixty year old Elizabeth Harrison, who 237 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 2: is sick at the time, and so she is there 238 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 2: to kind of check in on her. Sarah goes and 239 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 2: you know, wants to see how Harrison is doing. So 240 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 2: now we're talking about an eighty year old who is defenseless, 241 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 2: and you're talking about a sixty year old who is 242 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 2: ill at this point, and then a teenager, so even 243 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 2: more vulnerable victims against two young brothers and two women. 244 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 3: This is an important distinction. You have the residents home, 245 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 3: and now you have this group of thieves that are 246 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 3: planning on going into this residence to take valuables. Now, 247 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 3: if there's nobody at home, the type of crime that 248 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 3: they're committing is a burglary, where you're going into an 249 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 3: uninhabited dwelling with the intent to commit a felony. But 250 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 3: when you go into this dwelling and now you are 251 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 3: taking the valuables by force and fear from the victims themselves, 252 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 3: this is a robbery. And in this day and age, 253 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 3: we would be calling this a home invasion robbery. This 254 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 3: is a very serious crime. 255 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: While Sarah's there, she confirms that the valuables are in 256 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 2: the trunk. She says goodbye to Harrison, the sixty year 257 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 2: old woman, and Missus Dungam and the teenage girls. So 258 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 2: now she knows how many people are in this room. 259 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 2: We are not at all denying that Sarah did something 260 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 2: wrong in this situation. The question is is she going 261 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 2: to do something that is deadly? And that's what the 262 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 2: big question is. So the next night, Sarah sneaks in 263 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 2: Mary and the Alexander brothers into the home and she 264 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 2: tells him where the trunk is located, and they all 265 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 2: hide this group until Lydia and Anne and Elizabeth are asleep. 266 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 2: So Sarah is the lookout and she stations herself outside 267 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 2: of the home of the flat on a set of 268 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 2: stairs in the building's hallway. By Sarah's telling, it is 269 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 2: just Mary and the two brothers who were inside the 270 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 2: home when all this happens. So as far as she knows, 271 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 2: the thieves have gotten away with three hundred pounds in 272 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: gold and silver coins, which is a lot in seventeen 273 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 2: thirty three, and a menagerie of other items like smocks 274 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 2: and a canvas bag and a silver tankard. 275 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: Is that right? Is that? How you say that? 276 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 3: I wouldn't know. I've never heard that term. 277 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: You didn't know what a tankard was. 278 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: No, I'm gonna show you a photo. This is unexpected. 279 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 2: Hold on a second, this is a tankard. This seems 280 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: like you're kind of drink glass. Do you see it 281 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 2: on the right hand side. 282 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm gonna buy you one. 283 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. 284 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 3: It's like those metal beer steins with the lids on them. 285 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 286 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Well I've seen those in the movies, but 287 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 3: I've never drank out of one of those. 288 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: I'm sending you on. 289 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 2: So they take the gold coins, silver coins, and menagerie 290 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 2: of other items like smocks and a canvas bag, a 291 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 2: silver tankard, which we talked about. It's a beer stein 292 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 2: right with a lid and a handle. But this did 293 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 2: not go well for anybody. What happens in the apartment 294 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 2: is a mystery because no one really is going to 295 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 2: talk after this except for Sarah. The next day, someone 296 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 2: comes to check in on missus Duncombe and they find 297 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 2: a terribly bloody scene. The young housemaid and price. The 298 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 2: teenager had her throat savagely slit, and both of the women, 299 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 2: the sixty year old and the eighty year old, were 300 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 2: strangled to death with a cord and the trunk has 301 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 2: been busted open, so we know what the motive was. 302 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 3: Okay, And does it appear that the victims inside this 303 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 3: house were they asleep when they are attacked or does 304 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 3: it look like one or more of them got up 305 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 3: to confront the offenders coming into the residence. 306 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 2: It doesn't say. Would you think that the two women, 307 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 2: if you're strangled, are probably laying down? But if the 308 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 2: teenager's throat is slashed, is she standing up or why 309 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 2: would you do both? Is it several different people picking 310 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 2: different methods. 311 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 3: Oh well, there's so many variables. I mean, you can 312 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 3: see and I've seen, you know, women's whose throats have 313 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 3: been cut while they're obviously been down. I'm trying to 314 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 3: assess how this crime went down. You know, here you're 315 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 3: describing the planning process where the three offenders that are 316 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 3: going into the residents are going to go in during 317 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 3: a time when they expect the victims to be asleep, 318 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 3: so in essence, they're going to try to do this 319 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 3: cat burglary. They're going to try to sneak in, steal 320 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 3: the valuables, and get out. Now, obviously things went very sideways, 321 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 3: and my question is is that because of something the 322 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,959 Speaker 3: victims did such as maybe the teenager got up and 323 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 3: confronted to them. Was her throat, you know, cut with 324 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 3: a knife that they brought or did they utilize a 325 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,400 Speaker 3: weapon from inside the house. If they brought the knife, 326 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 3: that speaks to okay, well they were prepared in case 327 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 3: they met resistance. The two older ladies are being strangled. 328 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 3: Is that because they were still in their bed and 329 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 3: they just went ahead after they were confronted by the teenager. 330 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 3: They're eliminating the two other victims? Or was this the 331 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 3: intent from the very beginning? I know in this case, 332 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 3: the question is not with Sarah. You know, she obviously 333 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 3: is helping commit this crime, but is she involved in 334 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 3: more than just being a lookout? Now trying to assess 335 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 3: the dynamics of the crime scene, what was the motives? 336 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 3: I would if I could see crime scene photos, I 337 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 3: could determine the motives of the offenders. What they thought 338 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 3: they were going to be doing going in. They may 339 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 3: have planned to do a home invasion, robbery homicide. Where 340 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 3: now they're going to go in, they're going to wipe 341 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 3: out all the victims, They're going to steal the valuables. 342 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 3: Or does the crime scene itself make it look like, Oh, 343 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 3: they ran into something unexpected and now they had to 344 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 3: resort to this violence in order for self preservation, in 345 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 3: order to get away with committing this crime. 346 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 2: One of the things that's complicated about this case is 347 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 2: that once all of this becomes unraveled, you've got two 348 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 2: brothers and Mary Tracy who eventually are spoken to and 349 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 2: deny being there. So the reason I'm telling you that 350 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 2: information in advance is my question, is it likely if 351 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 2: you've got two scenarios, two men and two young women, 352 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 2: and let's say Sarah Malcolm was involved in the murders 353 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 2: doing this right, strangling two older women. Although I got 354 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 2: to tell you and I you're especially closer to sixty 355 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 2: than I am. You know, I know that that Harrison 356 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 2: was sick, but that doesn't mean she couldn't have fought back. 357 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 2: I'm trying to assess your choices here are Sarah Malcolm 358 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 2: was a lookout, and you've got two men and a 359 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 2: woman who did this, or two men and a woman 360 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 2: have nothing to do with this, and Sarah Malcolm did 361 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,719 Speaker 2: it all on her own. Those are your only two 362 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 2: choices right now. 363 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 3: I have a hard time believing Sarah going through this 364 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 3: residence and eliminating the three victims. It's not outside. There 365 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 3: on a possibility, however, that seems less likely to me. 366 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 3: So and the teenage girl that's inside this house, you know, 367 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 3: is she larger in stature? Is she stronger? You know? 368 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 3: The victimology comes into play in terms of assessing what 369 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 3: is the offender's physical capability to be able to handle 370 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 3: the teenage girl, in addition to being able to then 371 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 3: redirect at least on the sixty year old, who, even 372 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 3: though sick, potentially has physical capability to get up and 373 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 3: confront versus the eighty year old who, being in firm 374 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 3: may not be even able to get up out of 375 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 3: the bed. 376 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 2: Also, let's think about this time period where they are. 377 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 2: They're doing this in a residence that have multiple flats 378 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 2: inside of it. So I think this has to be 379 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 2: done quickly, so there's no yelling in screaming. Yes, I 380 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 2: don't know if a young woman would be able to 381 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 2: do all of this to stop one of these people 382 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 2: from screaming and alerting neighbors in a building that might 383 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 2: not have been well insulated. We're in London. This is 384 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 2: not a rural farmhouse where your neighbor is three miles away. 385 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 2: So I think a lot of this had to happen 386 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 2: very very quickly, and that comes into place later on. 387 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 2: They don't find the murder weapon. They don't find a knife, 388 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 2: they don't find the cord. You know, we don't know 389 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 2: if it was a cord that they found there that 390 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,639 Speaker 2: was a weapon of convenience or it was something they 391 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 2: brought with them. But they also they don't find the knife. 392 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 2: There's very little there except a lot of blood. And 393 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 2: that part is really important. When you slit someone's throat, 394 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 2: that must produce a tremendous amount of blood, no matter 395 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 2: how big the person is. 396 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 3: Right cutting the throat, while the person's still alive, the 397 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 3: heart's beating. If you've got both the jugular and the corotid, 398 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 3: particularly the carotid arteries being cut, that heart will continue 399 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 3: to beat for a period of time, and so you're 400 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 3: starting to get a very large blood pool that forms. 401 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 3: But when they walk into a scene and they say 402 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 3: there's a ton of blood in here, well it's important 403 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 3: as to Okay, what blood patterns are present. Do the 404 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 3: blood patterns indicate that there was an ongoing struggle? You know, 405 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 3: you've got the two victims who were strangled, and it 406 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,200 Speaker 3: doesn't sound like they're a source. They don't have any 407 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 3: bleeding injuries. They're not a source of the blood inside 408 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 3: this residence. Whereas Anne is, her throat is cut. Now, 409 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 3: does she have defensive injuries? Was she stabbed? Does it 410 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 3: appear that there's blood patterns indicating that there was combat 411 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 3: between Anne and the offender? Or is it just a 412 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 3: very large blood pool. This is where sometimes you get 413 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,479 Speaker 3: laid people who walk into a homicide scene and they 414 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 3: don't know what they're looking at, and they come out 415 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 3: and say there's blood everywhere, and what they're talking about 416 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 3: is there's just a large blood pool. And maybe it's 417 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 3: just a blood pool in the middle of the bed. 418 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 3: Anne was asleep and somebody came up and cut he 419 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 3: it's throat while she laid there, and within seconds she's gone. 420 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 3: So that's where it's important to know those types of things. 421 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,159 Speaker 3: But I know from seventeen thirties, I'm not going to 422 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 3: get that, am I. 423 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 1: No, you're not. 424 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 2: And I think the important thing coming up is where 425 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 2: the blood ended up. And I don't know if this 426 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 2: is going to fall under bloodstained pattern analysis, but I 427 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 2: think it is. So this is an interesting case. This 428 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 2: is why so words spreads throughout this residence. Remember this 429 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 2: is a building filled with flats, it's like an apartment building, 430 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 2: so no one heard anything. There were no screams. That's 431 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 2: what I mean. The efficiency of this crime seems really strong, 432 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 2: and that's why I'm very doubtful about what happens later 433 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 2: on in this case. So word spreads through the building 434 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 2: that there have been three murders, and Sarah lives part 435 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 2: time with mister Carroll one floor down from where this happens. 436 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 2: So mister Carroll, for his part, once he's heard about this, 437 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 2: starts side eyeing Sarah. She's acting very strangely and he 438 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 2: becomes suspicious. 439 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: He sees her. 440 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 2: Holding a bundle, and I don't know why that was suspicious, 441 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 2: but he thought it looked odd. He said, what is 442 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 2: that that you're holding? And she said, it's my clothing. 443 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 2: And this is where the sensibilities of the eighteenth century 444 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 2: are interesting, she said. When he said, well, let me 445 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 2: take a look at it, she said, I hope that 446 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 2: decency will prevent you from looking at my clothing, because 447 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,719 Speaker 2: that would have been inappropriate for a man to go 448 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 2: thumbing through her clothing. Even though she wasn't wearing it 449 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 2: at the time, and so he obliges. He totally backs 450 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 2: down and says, okay, but she's gripping onto a bundle. 451 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 3: Okay, and we don't know anything more about this bundle. 452 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 3: It's just like rolled up clothes. 453 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 2: As far as mister Carrol knows for now. But later 454 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 2: he starts becoming more and more suspicious and uncomfortable that 455 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 2: he's potentially living with a killer. So he searches her 456 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,719 Speaker 2: room and he finds the clothing and there's blood on it. 457 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 2: But the blood is on some very specific parts. It's 458 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 2: on something called a shift. Have you ever heard of that? 459 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: It's eighteenth century speak. 460 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,960 Speaker 3: No. I actually I have a case nineteen sixty six 461 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 3: case in which the criminalist that responded utilize the term shift. 462 00:25:58,160 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 3: The victim was wearing a shift, and I was like, 463 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 3: what is a shift? So I do have an understanding 464 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 3: as to what a shift is? 465 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 2: Tell us all what a shift is? Based on your understanding. 466 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 3: Oh boy, I am horrible at describing women's clothing. I 467 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 3: would describe what this victim was wearing was a I 468 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 3: don't know if a sun dress is the right term, 469 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 3: but in essence, it was you know, it was kind 470 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:27,199 Speaker 3: of like had two straps open topped, but a single 471 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,959 Speaker 3: piece that went down into a skirt, and that was 472 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:32,919 Speaker 3: what was described as a shift. 473 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little bit like a slip, and it's 474 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 2: an undergarment. It would have been a private undergarment that 475 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 2: mister Carroll should not have been looking at. Frankly, there's 476 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,160 Speaker 2: blood on it on the shift, and there's an apron 477 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 2: that she wore often that also had some blood on it, okay, 478 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 2: And there is also something odd that he finds that 479 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 2: mysterious tankard that I told you I'm going to send 480 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 2: you in the mail so you can drink your whiskey 481 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 2: out of it and be way too much whiskey for 482 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 2: you to drink. He finds the tankard in his bathroom 483 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 2: and it's bloody. It looks like somebody tried to hide 484 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 2: it there. This is probably the tankard from the floor 485 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 2: above where the murder happened, but he doesn't know that yet. 486 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 2: He then calls investigators and with this evidence, they look 487 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 2: at the blood on the shift that she's wearing, They 488 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 2: look at the apron and blood on that. They look 489 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 2: at the tankard and she says, the tankard is from 490 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,479 Speaker 2: my dad. And then she says, I know those are 491 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 2: bloody clothes, and they say this is evidence of murder, 492 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 2: and she said it's menstrual blood. And this sends them 493 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 2: into a tizzy because boy, women are not supposed to 494 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 2: talk about that in the seventeen hundreds. But it is 495 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 2: her defense. This is menstrual blood, and there's nothing you 496 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 2: can say that's going to prove otherwise. And forensically, she's. 497 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 3: Right, Okay, how much blood is there? You know, where 498 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 3: is it located on on these items clothing? You know 499 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 3: what types of blood patterns are present with this tankred? 500 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 3: You know, I'm again going back to the crime scene. 501 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 3: We have one bleeder at the crime scene and as 502 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 3: of right now, the only bleeding injury that you've described 503 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 3: as a cut throat. Right, Why is blood is showing 504 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 3: up on the clothing that Sarah has as well as 505 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 3: this tankred? What kind of blood stained patterns are they? 506 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 3: You know, this is where're getting back into what was 507 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 3: going on. There's probably more going on between Anne and 508 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 3: the offender than just Anne laying in her bed and 509 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 3: having her throat cut. If now we've got blood all 510 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 3: over the place, right there is you know a phenomenon 511 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 3: when when the throat is cut and the heart is 512 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 3: still beating, that you can get what's called an arterial spurt, 513 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 3: and you can get almost like this projected blood that 514 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 3: comes out of this breached artery and that could possibly, 515 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 3: you know, get onto somebody that's cutting the throat. But 516 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 3: if the throat is just cut, how come there's all 517 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 3: this blood staining happening on these items that Sarah has 518 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 3: possession of. Tells me that there's likely more violence going 519 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 3: on between the offender. And if in fact this blood 520 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 3: is Ann's from the crime I mean, Sarah has a 521 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 3: valid argument to this is where you know, is there 522 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 3: a possibility it's innocent blood, it's menstrual blood? This tankard 523 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 3: is it? You know, can it be proven that it 524 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 3: was stolen from the crime scene? Or is Sarah Wright? 525 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 3: And it's like, no, you know, this is from my dad. 526 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 3: I you know, I was dealing with my period and 527 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 3: I inadvertently touched this tankard and now I've passed menstrual 528 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 3: blood onto the tankard. So you have to be able 529 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 3: to start sorting that out well. 530 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 2: And actually what she says is it appears she did 531 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 2: have a cut, which would not have been unusual for 532 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 2: somebody who was dealing with food and clothing and everything 533 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 2: else that she was dealing with in a household. And 534 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 2: she said that the tankard was a family thing that 535 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 2: was you know, owned by her family, and that it 536 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 2: smeared with blood because she had cut her hand and 537 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 2: she grabbed it, you know, and that's how it ended 538 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 2: up with blood. I think she could have easily said 539 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 2: I wiped myself at some point and I had menstrul 540 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 2: blood and that's how it ended up on there. But 541 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 2: that was her explanation, is I had cut my hand, 542 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 2: I grabbed the tanker. But I have nothing to do 543 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 2: with this. That being said, she tells investigators, I was 544 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 2: in on the robbery. I was a lookout, Paul. That 545 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 2: was basically an automatic death sentence, So her admitting that 546 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 2: she was participating in this robbery would have resulted in 547 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 2: her death. She is saying, yes, I robbed. Yes, if 548 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 2: you're going to execute me, that is the right crime. 549 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 2: But I did not kill these three people, which I 550 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 2: thought was extraordinary. 551 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 3: Sure, and even in this day and age, you know, 552 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 3: these people that aren't directly involved in inflicting the violence 553 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 3: that leads to homicide, they didn't do the shooting. They 554 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 3: didn't do the stabbing. They are the driver of the vehicle. 555 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 3: They're you know, the lookout, like in Sarah's case, you know, 556 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 3: they are culpable for crime. And you know, up until recently, 557 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 3: due to what was called in California, the fell Any 558 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 3: Murder rule, they could be charged with murder even though 559 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 3: they weren't the act of participant in actually committing the homicide. 560 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 3: Now that has since changed in California, is my understanding, 561 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 3: but I'm sure there's similar statutes across the nation. So 562 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 3: you know, Sarah being the lookout and there's a triple 563 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 3: homicide that's occurred, she could be charged with murder in 564 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 3: some jurisdictions today. 565 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 2: Well, she names all three co conspirators. Everybody's arrested, but 566 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 2: only Sarah is indicted. And I think it's because of 567 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 2: that tankard. Nobody could definitively say that it belonged to 568 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 2: missus Duncan. There's no stolen goods found with the other 569 00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 2: three people, with the two men and the woman, So 570 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 2: they are there and under arrest simply because Sarah said, 571 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 2: this is what our plan was, and I was the 572 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 2: lookout and this was it. She was adamant, she had 573 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 2: nothing to do with the murders. And there is no 574 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 2: evidence aside from her word, connecting these three people to 575 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:18,960 Speaker 2: this murder, no physical evidence that we knew of. But 576 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 2: she says to she screams at the brothers and at 577 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 2: Mary Tracy and says, see what this is eighteenth century 578 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 2: speak here, see what you have brought to me. It 579 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 2: is through you that I am brought to this shame. 580 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 2: You all said you would do no murder, but to 581 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 2: my great surprise, I found the contrary. So she was 582 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 2: really upset, and she knew she will be executed for 583 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 2: the robbery. But she just felt like this was a 584 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 2: time period where what was most important was your reputation 585 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 2: in your name, and this was when there were honor 586 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 2: killings and duels, and she was very clear that she 587 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 2: did not participate in this. They tried her anyway, and. 588 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 3: The other three just completely denied any role in this crime. 589 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 2: Yep, they said, there's no evidence against us. So Sarah 590 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 2: goes on trial and they hold the other three to 591 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 2: see what happens with the trial. 592 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: She goes on trial February. 593 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 2: Twenty third and seventeen thirty three at Old Bailey. We've 594 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 2: talked about Old Bailly a lot. It's the classic old 595 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 2: courthouse where I feel like everybody in London for hundreds 596 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 2: and hundreds of years has been tried. She is on 597 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 2: the stand, She has a defense attorney, but she gets 598 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 2: on the stand and she comes across as very whip smart. 599 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 2: She cross examines her own witnesses, and she is not framed, 600 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 2: nor does she want to be framed as this demure, 601 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 2: sweet little lamb, which of course made everybody uncomfortable. She 602 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 2: was aggressive when she questioned people. She said, yes, I 603 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 2: did the robbery. I had nothing to do with the murders. 604 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 2: She was only the lookout and the next thing she 605 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 2: knew these three people were dead. Now the minstrel fluid, 606 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 2: which I find the most important part of this case. 607 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 2: She said, let's break this down to whether or not 608 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 2: the blood from cutting Ann's throat would have ended up 609 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 2: on the killer the way the blood. 610 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: Ended up on me. 611 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 2: And she said it was on my apron, and it 612 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 2: was on my undergarments, the shift, but it was nowhere else. 613 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 2: And she said, if it is supposed that I killed 614 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 2: Ann with my clothes on, then yes my apron would 615 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 2: be bloody. But how would the blood come upon my shift? 616 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 2: And not the rest of my clothes, So the undergarment 617 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,800 Speaker 2: but not the clothes over it. And if I only 618 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 2: did it in my shift, how would my apron be bloody? 619 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 2: And the back part of my shift was also bloody, 620 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 2: So she's saying, in every scenario, the blood is in 621 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 2: not the right place, it is localized. And then she said, 622 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 2: whether I did it dressed or undressed. Undressed would mean 623 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 2: with the shift only. Why was not the neck and 624 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 2: the sleeve of my shift bloody as well as the 625 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 2: lower parts? So she's saying, really, I'm gonna cut someone's 626 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 2: throat and it's just gonna end up where my vagina 627 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 2: is essentially, which is a good point. 628 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. It's something that has to be taken 629 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,719 Speaker 3: into consideration. But also I just keep going back to 630 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 3: what were the activities between the offender and the victim 631 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 3: and at the crime scene? Right, does the offender walk 632 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 3: away from that crime scene with some blood on their 633 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 3: hand and then now touching garments that they are wearing. 634 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 3: You know, in the seventeen thirties, they don't have the 635 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 3: ability to determine whose blood is on Sarah's clothing, right, 636 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 3: Nor do they have the ability to determine is this 637 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 3: blood menstrual or not, you know, versus today we do 638 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 3: have some capacity to be able to determine menstrual blood 639 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 3: versus inulatory blood. She's making I think some good arguments, 640 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 3: provided that the crime scene aspects are in line with 641 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 3: her arguments. And that's where you need to have an 642 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:18,399 Speaker 3: expert come in and assess everything to determine what she's 643 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 3: saying is consistent with what happened during the commission of 644 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 3: the crime. And right now we just don't. We don't 645 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:25,359 Speaker 3: have that and they didn't have it back then. 646 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 2: And you know, this comes up in the Lizzie Borden 647 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 2: trial also, you know, the idea of there's menstrual blood 648 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 2: and it's an easy way to say, you can't tell 649 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 2: the difference. At this point, this is and it was 650 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 2: so taboo to even talk about this. And Lizzie Borden 651 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 2: happened in the late eighteen hundred, so we're talking about 652 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 2: one hundred and. 653 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:45,720 Speaker 1: Fifty years before Lizzie Borden. 654 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 2: So when we talk about going backwards in this case, 655 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 2: and you're saying, I'm just picturing Sarah Malcolm with a 656 00:36:54,640 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 2: knife slitting Anne's throat, grabbing some of the blood blood 657 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 2: coming on her hand, she's dripping, she touches her shift 658 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 2: underneath some of her clothing. Wouldn't anybody be able to 659 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 2: tell the difference between the dripping of menstrual blood versus 660 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,280 Speaker 2: a handprint. It just seems like kind of a no brainer. 661 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 2: You would be able to tell the difference. 662 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 3: Well, what you're talking about is, let's say contact transfers. 663 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,760 Speaker 3: So let's say, yeah, the offender, let's say it's Sarah. 664 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 3: Sarah puts her hand inadvertently in some of Van's blood 665 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 3: at the crime scene. Now, when she touches items, whether 666 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 3: it be the tankard or various parts of her clothing, 667 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,880 Speaker 3: she's transferring the blood on her hand to those items. 668 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,440 Speaker 3: This is just a simple contact transfer. Let's say she's 669 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 3: on the other side, she's menstruating, she ends up getting 670 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 3: some of the menstrual blood on her hand, and now 671 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 3: she touches these very same items. You're not going to 672 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 3: differentiate that. Now, there are patterns, you know, if you 673 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 3: have spatter, have cast off. I would not expect a 674 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 3: woman to produce spatter when she's doing cleanup as a 675 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,919 Speaker 3: result of, you know, dealing with her menstrual cycle. That 676 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 3: would tend to cause me to lean more towards while 677 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 3: this was produced during a violent act. But right now 678 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 3: we don't have that information, you know, and so for me, 679 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 3: I can't corroborate or refute Sarah's defense with the information provided. 680 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 2: I think her point is, why would this undergarment be 681 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 2: bloody in the spots where it's bloodied and not other 682 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 2: items of my clothing. It didn't make any sense to her, 683 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 2: and it didn't make a lot of sense to other 684 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:41,400 Speaker 2: people privately. 685 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 3: And that may be a very valid argument, but I 686 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 3: can't because there's always variables, right, and so I can't say, oh, yes, 687 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 3: I completely am in line with what she's saying. What 688 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,360 Speaker 3: she's saying makes sense, it's a good argument, but there 689 00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 3: are possible scenarios in which that blood could result in 690 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 3: being in those locations because of the activity at the 691 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 3: crime scene and then the post offender behavior, So I 692 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:09,960 Speaker 3: can't differentiate all of this. 693 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 2: I think should have helped her case, her explanation, her 694 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 2: defense's explanation, It didn't. The fact that she was talking 695 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 2: about this openly was offensive to the jury and indicative 696 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 2: of her poor behavior, and this is a sign of 697 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,839 Speaker 2: the times. Of course, the trial lasted five hours, which 698 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:29,720 Speaker 2: was a fast trial. 699 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 3: We know that is very fair. 700 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: And the further back. 701 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 2: We go, the faster it is. The jury deliberated for 702 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 2: fifteen minutes. She was guilty of murder, she was sentenced 703 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 2: to death, and the other three people were freed. There's 704 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 2: no evidence. There's no way in my head that I 705 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 2: think she did this. I think she was the lookout 706 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,880 Speaker 2: and she got the tankard and got screwed at the end. 707 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 1: That's what I think. 708 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,839 Speaker 3: I think the number of victims inside this residence, how 709 00:39:55,880 --> 00:40:03,280 Speaker 3: they are killed, cutthroat and strangulation. Just from history, women 710 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 3: generally don't necessarily commit to this type of crime, a 711 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:07,760 Speaker 3: triple homicide. 712 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,879 Speaker 2: You know, robbing is one thing, but to do a 713 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 2: triple homicide in the same building where you live, where 714 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,400 Speaker 2: probably you would be investigated, it doesn't make any sense. 715 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 3: And evaluating this group of suspects, we start off this 716 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 3: case hearing about how the brothers and Mary Tracy are 717 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 3: these unsavory characters. And up to this point, you know, 718 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 3: once Sarah separates from you know, her dad goes back, 719 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 3: there's nothing to indicate to that Sarah has any criminal 720 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:44,359 Speaker 3: past to her right, because now she gets into this 721 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 3: group and at least per Sarah's statements. You know, they 722 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 3: plot to take advantage of Sarah's access into these various 723 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 3: flats inside this residence. The fact that she's associating with 724 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 3: others at this time that appear to have a criminal 725 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:07,280 Speaker 3: history that is more conducive to them possibly stepping into 726 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 3: this residence and very possibly committing this level of violence 727 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 3: suggests to me that, yes, I think Sarah very likely 728 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 3: is being accurate with her saying I was the lookout. 729 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 3: She doesn't have the past indicate that she is going 730 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 3: to be the one that will go into this residence 731 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 3: and kill three people. I think the other three are involved. 732 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: I agree. 733 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,719 Speaker 2: And one thing we haven't even talked about is we're 734 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:39,800 Speaker 2: talking about a situation where this is an Irish Catholic 735 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:44,840 Speaker 2: woman who is being tried by a Protestant England judicial system. 736 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 2: There is a bias there. It is all over the newspapers. 737 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 2: They say that she is unrepentant because she said, I 738 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 2: didn't do anything. You know, I was a lookout and 739 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 2: I made a mistake, and you can execute me for that, 740 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,800 Speaker 2: but don't execute me for murdering someone. So she writes 741 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 2: a letter before her execution to the chaplain where she 742 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 2: maintains her innocence, and she said, Sir, if conscience has 743 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 2: touched you in the least, it must certainly leave sadness 744 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,080 Speaker 2: on your spirits. And as it behooves everyone at their 745 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 2: last hour to die in peace with God in the world, 746 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,240 Speaker 2: I freely forgive you and all the world. 747 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:22,040 Speaker 1: So she is steadfast. 748 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,399 Speaker 2: I did not do this, and as an Irish Catholic woman, 749 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 2: you would think that she would have repented. 750 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 1: I would have guessed, But boy, I don't know. 751 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,760 Speaker 2: I know, you don't put as an investigator, you wouldn't 752 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,279 Speaker 2: put a lot of credence into that. But actions in 753 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,759 Speaker 2: this time period for her to not confess being a 754 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 2: very religious person, it would be surprising to me. The 755 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 2: flip side is I'm also surprised that she would have 756 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,720 Speaker 2: gone and been okay with robbing an old woman, potentially 757 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 2: hurting them. So Sarah Malcolm is a mixed bag. This 758 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 2: story has been told over and over again. Even though 759 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:03,399 Speaker 2: she was, you know, never wavering in her innocence, She's 760 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,239 Speaker 2: been sort of associated in time with human's capacity for 761 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,320 Speaker 2: sadism and evil and barbarianism, and I mean just terrible. 762 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,680 Speaker 2: There is a very well known sketch that was sketched 763 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,239 Speaker 2: days before her execution by William Holgrath. You know, this 764 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 2: is a woman who seemed doomed kind of by her 765 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 2: own actions and life circumstances, and certainly in the time 766 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 2: period that she lived in My goodness, we don't know 767 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:31,120 Speaker 2: what really happened, but boy, I'm not convinced she did 768 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,480 Speaker 2: all of that. I think that you have three people 769 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:34,760 Speaker 2: who got away with murder. 770 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 3: Oh so this is a sketch. This is actually Sarah 771 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:39,399 Speaker 3: in her cell yep. 772 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,240 Speaker 2: And you see her cross there and the rosary and everything. 773 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:47,440 Speaker 3: My conclusion on this is there's not enough evidence to 774 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 3: be able to even charge Sarah with the murders. But 775 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 3: to be clear, by Sarah's own admission, she participated in 776 00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 3: a crime that resulted in a triple homicide. So she 777 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,799 Speaker 3: does have culpability in the crime. And whether or not, 778 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 3: you know, her role rose to the level of the 779 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:13,480 Speaker 3: death sentence, that's I think that's debatable. But she most 780 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 3: certainly bears responsibility, some responsibility for the death of three people. 781 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 2: What a sad case. We don't know what happened. We 782 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 2: just know that because of this time period and the 783 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 2: circumstances that Sarah Malcolm did not get a fair trial, 784 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,880 Speaker 2: and whether she was innocent or guilty, it just is 785 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:35,320 Speaker 2: another reminder for me that you have an inherent biases 786 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 2: in society, based on religion, based on the sex of 787 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,799 Speaker 2: the person, you know, all of this. This was a 788 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:46,720 Speaker 2: woman who really was convicted mostly because she was trying 789 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 2: to defend herself in the best way she could and 790 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,359 Speaker 2: it was considered an impropriety that she did. 791 00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 3: It's another frustrating case for me because some of these 792 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 3: questions that's linger today could be answered if this case 793 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:03,520 Speaker 3: had occurred today. 794 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 2: But if that were the case, Paul Holes, we would 795 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,520 Speaker 2: have no cases. They would have all been solved and boring. 796 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,719 Speaker 2: And I know you like the sticky, weird unsolved. We 797 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 2: don't really know what happens, so let's just debate it 798 00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,799 Speaker 2: for an hour. Cases and I love them too. So 799 00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,200 Speaker 2: unfortunately for the folks in the seventeen hundreds, you know, 800 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,240 Speaker 2: we have a dearth of cases to work with here. 801 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 3: Well, but again, fascinating, So thanks for bringing that case 802 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 3: to my attention. 803 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:30,200 Speaker 1: Thank you, see you next week. 804 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:31,040 Speaker 3: Sounds good. 805 00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production for. 806 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,239 Speaker 3: Our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot 807 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 3: com slash Buried Bones sources. 808 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,040 Speaker 2: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi. 809 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,160 Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson. 810 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:53,080 Speaker 2: Our mixing engineer is Leona Squilatchi. 811 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,640 Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 812 00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:57,960 Speaker 2: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 813 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,400 Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarret of Georgia, Hard Stark and 814 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:02,360 Speaker 3: Daniel Kramer. 815 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,000 Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 816 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:07,240 Speaker 2: buried Bones Pod. 817 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,280 Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 818 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,279 Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the 819 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now, and 820 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:18,960 Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold 821 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:20,759 Speaker 2: Cases is also available now