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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Some of my fondest

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Speaker 1: memories from childhood were getting to meet the older members

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Speaker 1: of churches that I had attended. Young people always bored me.

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Speaker 1: I found the older people to be quite interesting and

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Speaker 1: they had a lot of stories. Now, every church varies,

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Speaker 1: but most churches are rather generous. Many people you can

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Speaker 1: find in these churches that will give you the shirt

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Speaker 1: off their back if you're kind of down and out,

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Speaker 1: and particularly if they perceive that you're doing good. I

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Speaker 1: want to talk to you about a case today where

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Speaker 1: it is the ultimate story involving a wolf in sheep's clothing,

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Speaker 1: a wolf that descends upon a tiny little Methodist church

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Speaker 1: in a tiny little town in Oklahoma and brings hell

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Speaker 1: with him. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks, Dave.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how you feel about it, but I

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Speaker 1: think that one of the characteristics of having a decent church.

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Speaker 1: No church is perfect, but having a decent church I

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Speaker 1: think goes to generosity. People can pontificate all they want

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Speaker 1: to and read scriptures and doing all that stuff, but

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Speaker 1: if people can be generous to other people, I think,

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Speaker 1: and kind and loving and not necessarily expecting anything in return.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a sign of maybe hell in certain ways.

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Speaker 2: What you think about that, love thy neighbor as you

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Speaker 2: love yourself. That pretty much tells you everything. That's a directive.

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Speaker 2: When the Lord tells you something, you better do it.

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Speaker 2: And when he says love your neighbor, you love your neighbor.

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Speaker 2: And neighbor is a for people that you don't know well,

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Speaker 2: people you've just met. Being nice, being kind, thinking of

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Speaker 2: the other person first. I agree that is the health

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Speaker 2: of a church. It's amazing to me in this day

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Speaker 2: and age where we have so many opportunities to share

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Speaker 2: the gospel worldwide using the Internet, and it's just an

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Speaker 2: amazing thing now. But Joe, ultimately, the church is not

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Speaker 2: a building. It's the people and how the people interact

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Speaker 2: with one another and new friends. And that's how a

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Speaker 2: church actually is judged, is how they behave in their

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Speaker 2: community with people. And that's why this story it centers

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Speaker 2: around extending that right handed fellowship to somebody you just met.

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Speaker 2: In this particular case, they met the devil on a bicycle.

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Speaker 1: I think it's one of those things that you never

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Speaker 1: know how evil is going to show up and that's

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Speaker 1: what really struck me. One of the things that really

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Speaker 1: struck me about this case, and it sounds cheesy, but

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Speaker 1: it's like the devil road into town on a bicycle

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Speaker 1: is what this comes down to. He shows up. And

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Speaker 1: the thing about it is, when somebody's on a bicycle,

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Speaker 1: you envisioned some kind of you know, the Devil's going

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Speaker 1: to roll into town and he's going to be in

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Speaker 1: like some evil looking mac truck or large truck with

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Speaker 1: big tires on it, you know, and horns on the hood.

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Speaker 1: This guy, because he's not the devil, he's a man

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Speaker 1: that was very evil, shows up on a bicycle, and

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Speaker 1: it almost when you're looking from an investigative perspective and

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Speaker 1: you're looking through the eyes, you know, you're trying to

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Speaker 1: look at the eyes of the people that are impacted

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Speaker 1: by what this guy did. I don't know that there's

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Speaker 1: any more passive mode of transportation other than going out

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Speaker 1: for a stroll.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps it's the first mode of transportation we actually have.

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Speaker 2: And that's it's so funny. For most people, I include

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Speaker 2: myself in this one. Our bike is one of the

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Speaker 2: most important possessions we have as an early teenager, right

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Speaker 2: before you can get your freedom in a car, you know,

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Speaker 2: you get that first real freedom with a bike. Where

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Speaker 2: yous Tell mom and dad, I'll be back in a

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Speaker 2: couple hours. I'm going to go here or there, back

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Speaker 2: in the day anyway. In this particular case, imagine it's

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Speaker 2: a Saturday afternoon, beautiful day, and he shows up peddling along,

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Speaker 2: and there's this church in the small town of Depew, Oklahoma,

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Speaker 2: and it's a late day in September. A man riding

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Speaker 2: a bicycle shows up and starts chatting with the guy

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Speaker 2: mowing the yard. He tells him the man I'm talking about,

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Speaker 2: Scott Isermer tells the man mowing the yard. Hey, I'm

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Speaker 2: bicycling across country to raise money for victims of nine

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Speaker 2: to eleven, which not that much of an uncommon thing.

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Speaker 2: Back in September two thousand and two, one year after

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Speaker 2: nine to eleven, a lot of people were raising money

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Speaker 2: for different funds related to the nine to eleven event.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't raise the red flag over that if somebody

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Speaker 2: told me they were doing it.

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Speaker 1: No, and listen, I'm not saying that that evil doesn't

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Speaker 1: happen in small towns. This town roughly has a population

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Speaker 1: somewhere in between about four hundred and five hundred people.

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Speaker 1: Everybody knows one another here, all right.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, the first person mister Isimer finds is

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Speaker 2: retired school teacher John Wright. Again, it's a Saturday, and

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Speaker 2: mister Wright's mowing the lawn at the Methodist church, getting

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Speaker 2: ready for services the next morning. Now, the community has described,

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Speaker 2: as you said, very small town. But you know where

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Speaker 2: everybody leaves the front door on lock, leaves keys in

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Speaker 2: the ignition. Just one of those pleasant places to live.

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Speaker 2: And Ismer was a Scott Eismer was able to take

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Speaker 2: advantage of that. He tells mister Wright, Hey, I'm doing

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Speaker 2: this to Ray's money, you know, for nine to eleven,

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Speaker 2: which you mind if I pitched a tent on the

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Speaker 2: backyard here at the church overnight? And mister Wright says,

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Speaker 2: I'll go you on better, son, Why don't you come

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Speaker 2: on in and stay in the fellowship all night, sleeping

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Speaker 2: there in the air conditioning. It'll feel good. And that's

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Speaker 2: where they met. They being Scott Eimer and the entire

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Speaker 2: community of Depew, Oklahoma, met on a fall day in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and two. Now, mister Wright had a daughter

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Speaker 2: and her name was Kathy Biggs. Mister Scott Isimer became

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Speaker 2: romantically involved with Missus Biggs, and that romantic relationship led

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Speaker 2: for Missus Biggs to file for divorce and she and

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Speaker 2: Isenmer moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma and lived in an apartment there.

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Speaker 2: Now this is fairly quickly. Scott Eismer, obviously he's a player,

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Speaker 2: and he gets Catherine. They moved to Tulsa set up shop.

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Speaker 2: Less than a year, the romance faded and Catherine Biggs

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Speaker 2: moved back home to Depew, Oklahoma. And by the way,

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Speaker 2: when she got home, she filed for protective order against

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Speaker 2: Scott Isimer. So now we're a year past that encounter

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Speaker 2: on the bicycle at the church, that first man that

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Speaker 2: he met, mister Wright. He marries his daughter. A year

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Speaker 2: goes by, and now miss Wright has a protective order

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Speaker 2: against Isomer. Mister Isiomer now shows up in Tulsa, and

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Speaker 2: or he spends time in the Tulsa County Jail for

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Speaker 2: violation of the protective order. So this is not a

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Speaker 2: man that has control of all of his emotional faculties.

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Speaker 2: Is that a good way to phrase that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that it is. It's excellent anytime you

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Speaker 1: have an event that winds up in a homicide, and

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Speaker 1: in this case, a multiple homicide. You have to look

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Speaker 1: back into the history of a subject to see because

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Speaker 1: most of the time, and this is one of the

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Speaker 1: things that really frustrates the public, me included, when you

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Speaker 1: take the long view of it, you see it tracking forward,

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Speaker 1: you can see that this is not going to end

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Speaker 1: well because you've got preceding behaviors that come along with this,

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Speaker 1: violent behaviors that indicate that if this person is not

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Speaker 1: interdicted in some way, it's going to wind up in

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Speaker 1: a real tragedy, and certainly it did in this particular case.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, this little town of lesson

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Speaker 1: five hundred people will be scarred forever endeavor. I don't

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Speaker 1: know why. I'm still amazed after all these years that

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Speaker 1: you see a circumstance where an individual is spending out

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Speaker 1: of control and then all of a sudden it winds

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Speaker 1: up in a complete and total train wreck for everybody

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Speaker 1: that is involved around them. And it's interesting, isn't it.

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Speaker 1: It's like, in the news media and whatnot, the perpetrator

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Speaker 1: so many times Dave becomes the focus of the case

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Speaker 1: and you really begin to forget about the victims. In

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Speaker 1: a case, they become I guess, eccentric and the porpetrator

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Speaker 1: is concentric to the story. And that's a real shame.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that to a great degree after

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Speaker 1: these number of years, has happened in this particular case.

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Speaker 2: I agree with you. It does take you down a

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Speaker 2: path that you don't want to go. I want to

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Speaker 2: remember the people, the victims. But in this particular case,

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Speaker 2: we have one man, Scott Isimer, and several victims. So

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Speaker 2: let's start with Ismer. Quick review. Arrived on town on

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Speaker 2: a bicycle, meets a man at the Methodist church who

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Speaker 2: introduces him to his daughter. A romantic relationship ballooms. The

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Speaker 2: pedals fall off the flower within a year, and Catherine

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Speaker 2: Smith now finds herself back in the town of Depew,

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Speaker 2: and she has a protection order against Scott Isimer. Isimer

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Speaker 2: wants to see her again, and so he makes a plan.

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Speaker 2: His plan is to stay across the street from her

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Speaker 2: house and surveil it and basically lie and wait. That's

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Speaker 2: a legal term, believe it or not, Lie and wait.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly what Scott Eismer was doing. He waited until

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Speaker 2: aj Cantrell and his wife Patsy left home. He sneaks

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Speaker 2: into their home and watches right across the street. His

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Speaker 2: ex girlfriend Catherine, her sixteen year old son, and by

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Speaker 2: the way, her sixty three year old mother all live

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Speaker 2: in this house. While Scott Eismer is watching the home,

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Speaker 2: the Cantrell's come back home earlier than he thought. He

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Speaker 2: thought he had more time, but they arrived back home.

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Speaker 2: This is where evil takes place and Scott Eismer takes

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Speaker 2: a four to ten shotgun he finds inside the Cantrell's

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Speaker 2: home and as they walk in the house, he shoots

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Speaker 2: and kills Patsy Cantrell with the shotgun and then uses

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Speaker 2: the shotgun to beat A. J. Cantrell to death. Joe,

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Speaker 2: they're seventy in their seventies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, mister Crantraill was seventy six.

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Speaker 2: Day And I kind of imagined this that while Eismer

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Speaker 2: was able to get one shot off off on missus

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Speaker 2: Cantrell on Patsy, that mister Cantrell was on the attack

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Speaker 2: right away and went right after. That's what I'm assuming here,

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Speaker 2: because Eisenber was not able to get a shot off

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Speaker 2: on mister Cantrell, but he beat him to death with

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Speaker 2: a shotgun. So backing up, Joe, what kind of injuries

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Speaker 2: are we looking at from a four to ten shotgun?

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Speaker 1: Well, first off, four ten it's not uncommon, but it's

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Speaker 1: not when you think of shotguns, which are traditionally when

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Speaker 1: we think of the word caliber or the size, it's

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Speaker 1: the diameter of the bore. Shotguns are actually measured not

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Speaker 1: in caliber but in gauges, and so the lower the

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Speaker 1: number of the gauge, like you have traditionally like a

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Speaker 1: twenty gauge, it'll skip traditionally to sixteen gauge, and then

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Speaker 1: you have twelve gauge, which is very common, that's what

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Speaker 1: the police carry, is what the military carries, and then

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Speaker 1: you drop down to ten gauge. Actually, a ten gauge

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Speaker 1: is something in the past that's been a said with an

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Speaker 1: elephant gun because it'll fire, it can fire these very

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Speaker 1: robust slugs, very lethal weapon. But then you have this

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Speaker 1: outlier as far as a shotgun, and it's measured in

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Speaker 1: zero point four to one zero, which is odd, and

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Speaker 1: it's not a gauge. It's actually a caliber and it's

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Speaker 1: the equivalent of a forty one caliber bullet. You've heard

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Speaker 1: Dirty Harry for instance, forty four magnum most powerful handgun

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Speaker 1: in the world, will blow your head clean off. But

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Speaker 1: they have measured the bore of the four to ten

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Speaker 1: shotgun as point four to one, and it can take slugs.

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Speaker 1: It'll fire slugs, and it'll also fire shot as well,

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Speaker 1: like bird shot in this particular case, which are tiny.

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Speaker 1: If people have never seen bird shot, it looks just

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Speaker 1: like BB's now. The bbs that are contained within each

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Speaker 1: one of these rounds can come in a variety of sizes,

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Speaker 1: but suffice it to say there are a large number

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Speaker 1: of bebes contain in each shell. And most of the

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Speaker 1: time four to ten shotgun is utilized. Some people will

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Speaker 1: refer to it as a varmint weapon. You can go,

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Speaker 1: you can actually hunt rabbit with it. People use it.

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Speaker 1: Young young kids are given four to ten shotguns because

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Speaker 1: they don't have a lot of recoil to them. They'll

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Speaker 1: use them to hunt squirrel with small game. People around

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Speaker 1: farms use them to kill rats with for instance, or snakes.

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Speaker 1: Matter of fact, there's a famous weapon that's referred to

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Speaker 1: as a snake charmer. That's a single shot four to

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Speaker 1: ten shotgun, but it operates just like a regular shotgun,

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Speaker 1: and it's a smooth bore weapon. So when this thing

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Speaker 1: is fired, and in this case, when miss Kentrell was

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Speaker 1: actually shot, it launched a single volley of bebi's into her.

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Speaker 1: And the way we like in her case in forensics,

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Speaker 1: one of the ways that we would get an idea

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Speaker 1: as to how far away this weapon was from her

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Speaker 1: when it was discharged is that you would measure the

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Speaker 1: circumference or the distribution of the bebes on the wound

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Speaker 1: pattern as they entered the body. Most of the time

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Speaker 1: we think about dispersal of gunshot residue, and you know,

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Speaker 1: lots of times you'll get soot on wounds. We talk

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Speaker 1: about that, and the broader the expanse of the soot,

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Speaker 1: if you're talking about like a pistol shot, gives you

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Speaker 1: an approximation of distance. But with bird shot like this,

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Speaker 1: you get these all these little satellite wounds that are

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Speaker 1: just slightly bigger than say the head of a pen,

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Speaker 1: that penetrate the body. What's so devastating about it is

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Speaker 1: that you get multiple of these ripping through the body.

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Speaker 1: The wider the expanse, the further the distance is the

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Speaker 1: muzzle target distances when the thing is discharged, and so

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Speaker 1: each one of these little bebes tracks through the body

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Speaker 1: on its own individual little trajectctory as it or wound

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Speaker 1: track rather as it passes through the body, and it

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Speaker 1: can Let's say, if you're four feet away from somebody

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Speaker 1: and you aim center mass with this thing, it'll initially

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Speaker 1: come out as like a cylinder in the air and

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Speaker 1: travel and as it gets further and further away from

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Speaker 1: the end of the muzzle, that cylinder begins to open up.

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Speaker 1: And so now instead of having a point four to

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Speaker 1: one cylinder size that's going down range, suddenly it has

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Speaker 1: in caliber it's expanded out to maybe point six to

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Speaker 1: oh so you're talking about zero point six oh inches,

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Speaker 1: or it can expand out too point seventy. And so

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Speaker 1: as in the further and further away, the broader this

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Speaker 1: expanse gets, you can have one of these rounds that'll

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Speaker 1: track and it'll clip, say the liver and maybe the spleen,

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Speaker 1: the pancreas, the bowel, and these things are a nightmare

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Speaker 1: for surgeons to have to work on if the person

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Speaker 1: served and they make it to the hospital, because it's

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Speaker 1: not like you just have a single bullet hole that's

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Speaker 1: entered the body and tracked through. They have to find

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Speaker 1: each one of these little tracks that are passing through

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Speaker 1: the body. It's easily displayed on the external on the

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Speaker 1: exterior of the body, you can appreciate it it comes.

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Speaker 1: It'll actually distribute powder on the body as well, so

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Speaker 1: you can get a pretty accurate reading for how far

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Speaker 1: away with this weapon this shoulder fire and arm, because

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Speaker 1: that's that's what it is. You fired from the shoulder.

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Speaker 1: It's a long arm. You can turn this thing around.

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Speaker 1: And I find that it's very interesting you made this

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Speaker 1: assessment day when mister Cantrell had this awareness that his

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Speaker 1: brecious bride, who he's probably spent a good deal of

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Speaker 1: his life with, has been shot. Can you imagine he

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Speaker 1: springs into action. This weapon that's a long arm can

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Speaker 1: be used as a bludgeon, and that is in fact

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Speaker 1: what occurred with this. He was about his head. He

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Speaker 1: had five distinct lacerations to his head and those arise

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Speaker 1: from blunt force trauma that he's going to be very

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Speaker 1: jagged injuries.

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Speaker 2: One thing to review very quickly in case you missed

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Speaker 2: episode the other day where we actually talked about lacerations.

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Speaker 2: Up until the other day, I thought laceration was a

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Speaker 2: slicing wound. That is not what happened. Being bludgeoned is

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Speaker 2: to be beaten, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It is, And it's when you begin to beat somebody

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Speaker 1: down with this thing. Every time you strike, let's say

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Speaker 1: you're being the victim or the target is being struck

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Speaker 1: with the butt of the weapon that is transferring energy.

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Speaker 1: The first strike, he may have been standing up, but

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Speaker 1: after you struck with the force of this thing, he's

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Speaker 1: going down to his knees and then you're in a

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Speaker 1: dominant position over him and Dave. According to the medical examiner,

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Speaker 1: this perpetrator beat seventy six year old mister Cantrell in

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Speaker 1: the head to the point where his skull fracture. It

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Speaker 1: is somewhat of a great feet fracture. A skull, the

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Speaker 1: skull is very resilient. We think that skull fractures happen

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Speaker 1: all the time. Well, our skull is very resilient, and

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Speaker 1: so in order to introduce this kind of force into

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Speaker 1: the environment, and he's probably striking the same location over

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Speaker 1: and over, and so the structural is becoming weaker and

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Speaker 1: weaker until it finally fractures.

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Speaker 2: There are also different types of skull fractures. Correct, there's

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Speaker 2: the linear, which is just a crack in the skull

305
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Speaker 2: where the the bones are even but a crack, and

306
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Speaker 2: then there's depressed right.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, So we actually refer to the skull itself,

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Speaker 1: the surface of the skull as what's referred to as

309
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Speaker 1: the external table of the skull, and it's layered and

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Speaker 1: it's a fascinating structure. You know, if you look at

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Speaker 1: the bone of the skull on cross section, it's got

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Speaker 1: a matrix that lies beneath the surface and it's I

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Speaker 1: don't know that any engineer could create something that is

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Speaker 1: as resilient as bone like this. In this particular case,

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Speaker 1: the skull itself, it's created to absorb shocks. So you

316
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Speaker 1: have the external table of skull, you have this kind

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00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,000
Speaker 1: of matrix that's in between it. It looks almost like

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Speaker 1: a honeycomb. And then you have the internal surface of

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Speaker 1: the skull that's smooth because it's adjacent to the brain,

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Speaker 1: and so you have to make your way through that.

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Speaker 1: And with a depressed skull fracture like you were mentioning,

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Speaker 1: literally part of that external table gives way. So it's

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Speaker 1: not just like it's fractured. It is the fact that

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Speaker 1: now if it's depressed, and depressed means to be sunken

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Speaker 1: in you're driving the bone into the brain, and that

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Speaker 1: bone will fragment many times and send little splinters into

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Speaker 1: the brain. And in this case, aj Cantrell died on

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Speaker 1: that floor immediately adjacent to his wife Patsy, after she

329
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:21,840
Speaker 1: have been shot with the same weapon. I make a

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Speaker 1: big deal out of learning from the dead, and I

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Speaker 1: even use the term we allow the dead to speak

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Speaker 1: in this particular case. What I'm meaning is that the

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Speaker 1: injuries that you have on a body will give you

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Speaker 1: an idea as to the dynamics of an event. This

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Speaker 1: is the thing. No horror rider that is out there

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Speaker 1: can right the injuries like a scientist can interpret them.

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Speaker 1: And suddenly this thing springs to life in your mind

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Speaker 1: when you begin to see the outline of the butt

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Speaker 1: of a weapon. Because many times the butt of the

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Speaker 1: weapon won't be textured, it'll have marks on it, and

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Speaker 1: for every one of those strikes, you'll leave a mark

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Speaker 1: behind to indicate that there was tremendous violence. Here, you

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Speaker 1: see the streaking of blood. You see how the skin

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Speaker 1: is ripped and torn as a result of as you mentioned, Dave,

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Speaker 1: this laceration that arises from blunt force trauma, and then

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Speaker 1: you see the other attempts that were made to strike

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Speaker 1: these abrasions where maybe mister Cantrell, in his fighting back,

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Speaker 1: he turns his head and he just kind of the

349
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Speaker 1: butt of the weapon just kind of scrapes across the skin.

350
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Speaker 1: Then he realigns and the next thing you know, he's

351
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Speaker 1: hit full force. But this is done over and over

352
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Speaker 1: and over again. It makes me think, Dave, there, his

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Speaker 1: wife is laying on the floor, don't know if she's

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Speaker 1: dead yet, but her life is seeping out, and all

355
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Speaker 1: he can think about in that instant is to get

356
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Speaker 1: over to her and render aid. And that just was

357
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Speaker 1: not to be in this case.

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Speaker 2: You're right, Joe. When I go back over this, I'm

359
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Speaker 2: thinking of You're living in a small town, a community

360
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 2: that leaves the front door unlocked and the keys the

361
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:12,399
Speaker 2: ignition without fear, and now the worst possible thing has

362
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Speaker 2: happened in your castle, the one place you're the This

363
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 2: is your home, and this invader has now attacked in

364
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Speaker 2: such a horrible way. Your spouse is shot, you're getting beat.

365
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Speaker 2: I don't know at what point mister Cantrell was not

366
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Speaker 2: alert to what was going on. I'm hoping it was

367
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Speaker 2: fairly quickly, because the first hit on that gun to

368
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Speaker 2: his head could have rendered him. It could have knocked

369
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Speaker 2: him out right. I mean, he could have been unconscious.

370
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Speaker 1: It could have. And I got to interject something here

371
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Speaker 1: real quick, because this is a question that I could

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Speaker 1: asked or was always asked by family members, and you

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Speaker 1: bring it up right here, and I think that it's

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Speaker 1: it's certainly important. People always want to know if their

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Speaker 1: loved ones suffered. Just let that just kind of resonate

376
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Speaker 1: just for a second. Would have that question asked to

377
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Speaker 1: me all the time, did they suffer? Because people want

378
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Speaker 1: to know what the status of this person that they

379
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Speaker 1: had loved throughout their life was. And early on in

380
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Speaker 1: my career I would say, no, they didn't suffer. But

381
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Speaker 1: you know, as time went by, I couldn't. I was

382
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Speaker 1: not capable of dishonesty any longer. I would simply say,

383
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Speaker 1: I don't know. In this case, I would hope that

384
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Speaker 1: he lost consciousness, but he had an awareness, and it

385
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Speaker 1: was painful. It was very painful. And I think also

386
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Speaker 1: the wife's death was very painful because she had an awareness.

387
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Speaker 1: I don't think that she initially died immediately.

388
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Speaker 2: I understand why people ask that, and I think that

389
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Speaker 2: in reality, we're asking you to tell us that our

390
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 2: loved one didn't suffer and that it was all a

391
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Speaker 2: big surprise shock and they had no idea.

392
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Speaker 1: But you're right.

393
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Speaker 2: The truth needs to have its day because you have

394
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,680
Speaker 2: real world consequences, and sometimes you need to face these

395
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 2: consequences based on knowing what really transpired. So after he

396
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 2: kills the til, after he shoots Patsy Cantrell and then

397
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 2: beats Aj to death, mister Cantrell, Isismer goes across the street.

398
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 2: His original target was his ex girlfriend Catherine, not necessarily

399
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 2: her son or her mother. And again, remember this is

400
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 2: the family. The first person that Eimer met when he

401
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 2: arrived into Pew, Oklahoma was mister Wright, the head of

402
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 2: this household, mowing the yard at the Methodist church. And

403
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 2: mister Wright invited Eimer into their church and into their family.

404
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 2: And here we are a year later. Eismer has just

405
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: shot Patsy Cantrell and then bludgeoned her husband, Aj Cantrell.

406
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 2: He's now across the street, and what does he do?

407
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 2: He at tacks.

408
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: He still got this weapon in his hand. Now walking

409
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: out in public with a long arm like this across

410
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 1: the street.

411
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Speaker 2: And you know where I lived, that wouldn't be the

412
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 2: most uncommon thing. But if I saw somebody walking across

413
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 2: the street with a gun with a shotgun, I would

414
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 2: know who the person is and probably know the type

415
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 2: of gun.

416
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, you probably would. And the four to ten is

417
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 1: something that is it is small enough that I think

418
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 1: that many people could mistake it, perhaps if you're at

419
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 1: a distance, not up close, but if you're at a distance,

420
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: you could mistake it for perhaps a twenty two caliber rifle,

421
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: which again is a varmot weapon essentially. And he's walking

422
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 1: across the street, and Dave, here's an interesting point when

423
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 1: we've talked about Lacart's principle on the show, the transfer

424
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: of evidence. Every contact leaves a trace. Dave, when he

425
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:34,119
Speaker 1: is exiting their home, he's transporting VISV that gun, and

426
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: probably himself. He's transporting biological evidence from that scene that

427
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,679
Speaker 1: he has attached to his person and to this weapon.

428
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: Remember this weapon was used as a bludgeon. So when

429
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 1: he enters that home across the street, he brings that

430
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:49,880
Speaker 1: with him.

431
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 2: Now he goes into the home he shoots the sixteen

432
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 2: year old boy, He attacks sixty three year old mother

433
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 2: and Catherine all of the fan. His ex girlfriend, Catherine

434
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 2: Smith is attacked as well. Now they all survive. The

435
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 2: all three of those survive. He right now has just

436
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: killed the Cantrells. But now he's got to get out

437
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 2: of town. And this starts a thirty seven day manhunt

438
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 2: where Isimer is hiding out in the woods and everything else.

439
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking a small community like this, and this

440
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 2: guy's able to elude capture by sleeping in the woods

441
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 2: and stuff. That's just pretty odd and remarkable of hisself.

442
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 2: But he eventually was caught after he kidnapped a couple

443
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: out of in Tulsa, gets him to drive to Texas

444
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 2: and this man had a couple that he kidnapped. He

445
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 2: carjacked this man in the car. He's a doctor, doctor Peeples.

446
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 2: He actually had a pistol stashed in this van. And

447
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 2: they get at a certain place and mister doctor Peebles

448
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 2: is able to shoot Isimer four or five times with

449
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 2: the handgun and thus ends the reign of terror by

450
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 2: Scott Isimer.

451
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know what I got to tell you, doctor,

452
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: People's we kind of briefly mentioned the manhunt day when

453
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 1: this manhunt occurred looking for Ozmer, did you know that

454
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: this was at the time, it was the longest man

455
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: hunt in the history of state of Oklahoma that they

456
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: were looking for this guy. So my thought is is

457
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: that doctor Peoples, he had an awareness. He knew, you know,

458
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:25,439
Speaker 1: to go back to our analogy earlier, he knew that

459
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: the devil had taken hold at this point in time

460
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 1: that he was physically rioting, and I'm sure he's thinking,

461
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: he knows what's happened over into Pew and so he

462
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: knows that if he does not act quickly, he and

463
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: his wife are going to wind up the same as

464
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 1: the Cantrells did.

465
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 2: Good point. I did not think about that, Joe, But

466
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 2: you're right, and that to have the presence of mind

467
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 2: doctor Peeples and his protecting himself and his wife, they

468
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: actually I'm not saying they allowed themselves to be kidnapped,

469
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 2: but they played it just right. Where you got to

470
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: remember Isamer is already a killer, and he's been on

471
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 2: the run, and he's willing to do anything. Yet doctor

472
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: People is able to get him settled down enough that

473
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 2: doctor Peepless able to pull the gun and turn it

474
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 2: on him and actually shoot Scott Ismer. That's the amazing

475
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 2: thing to me is that he had the presence of mind.

476
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 2: He got this guy the coolest jets long enough for

477
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 2: doctor Peebles to gain the upper hand.

478
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: Ismer is out fleeing and eluding during this period of time.

479
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 1: I think one of the big questions is what happened

480
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 1: to that four to ten shotgun. And as it turned out,

481
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: he had taken it and thrown it out in the woods.

482
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: And when the Oklahoma authorities finally caught up with him

483
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: and he was eventually caught down I believe in Paris,

484
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: Texas is where he had wound up. They brought him

485
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: back to Oklahoma, and the Oklahoma authorities were They were like,

486
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: all right, well, you're being charged with this. Do you

487
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: want to speak to us? He says, yeah, I'll even

488
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: take you to where the weapon is. And it initially

489
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: when went out to the scene where he said it was,

490
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: they didn't find it on the first day. But the

491
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: second day they they did in fact find it and

492
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: it was lying along a creek bank. And here's one

493
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: of the chilling things. When they found that weapon, it

494
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: had an unfired round in it, so it still had

495
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: a chambered round that he could have used. But here's

496
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: the thing about long arms like that. If you're carrying

497
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: those around, there's no way to secret this weapon, particularly

498
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: if you're on foot. It's at that point he's probably

499
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: made this decision that he is going to kidnap somebody else,

500
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 1: and he I guess he figures, you know, he's looking

501
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: for an elderly target perhaps, and he can take them

502
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: down and he can get control of them and then

503
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: kind of leapfrog into the next phase of his journey.

504
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: But he left that weapon behind because he knew that

505
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: it would draw attention. Here's the thing that I think

506
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: would be critical here. This weapon had laid out there

507
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: for weeks upon weeks, and it creates a problem forensically

508
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: sometimes that if it's not handled correctly, you might not

509
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: be able to pick up on some of the ballistic

510
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: evidence that's left behind. And with shotguns, of course, are

511
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: smooth bore, it becomes particularly complicated. But here's the thing

512
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: in this case, we're not to be concerned if Scott

513
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: Eimer is going to recavoc any longer. I don't think

514
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: that the folks into Pew are going to have to

515
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: worry if he is going to come back and do harm.

516
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: Scott James Eimer was executed on Thursday January twelfth, twenty

517
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: twenty three. He was pronounced dead twenty fifteen. AM. I'm

518
00:30:45,920 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks