Speaker 1: When we asked participants in our study, you're eighty years
Speaker 1: old now, when you look back on your life, what
Speaker 1: do you regret the most more than anything? Many of
Speaker 1: them said, I wish I hadn't spent so much time
Speaker 1: worrying about what other people thought. So then the question is, well,
Speaker 1: what could we do to change that? And is simply
Speaker 1: to check in more with myself about what are the
Speaker 1: things that raise my energy. Hey, everyone, welcome back to
Speaker 1: On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world.
Speaker 1: Thanks to each and every one of you that come
Speaker 1: back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now I
Speaker 1: know that you're here because you want to improve your happiness,
Speaker 1: you want to improve your health, and you want to
Speaker 1: improve your healing. And there are certain guests that I
Speaker 1: always love having on the show that I have on
Speaker 1: multiple times, and today's guests this is their second appearance,
Speaker 1: and I could have been more happy to speak to
Speaker 1: them because they also have a new book that I
Speaker 1: have been eagerly waiting for since I met them. I'm
Speaker 1: talking about the Special Robert Waldinger a professor of psychiatry
Speaker 1: at Harvard Medical School, director of the Harvard Study of
Speaker 1: Adult Development, and co founder of the Lifespan Research Foundation.
Speaker 1: Doctor Waldinger received his AB from Harvard College and his
Speaker 1: MD from Harvard Medical School. Doctor Waldinger is a practicing
Speaker 1: psychiatrist and psychoanalyst, and he directs a psychotherapy teaching program
Speaker 1: for Harvard Psychiatry residents. He's also a zen master and
Speaker 1: teaches meditation in New England and around the world. And
Speaker 1: Robert is the co author of the book The Good
Speaker 1: Life Lessons from the World's Longest Scientific Study of Happiness.
Speaker 1: This is the book that I want you to go
Speaker 1: and order, The Good Life Lessons from the World's Longest
Speaker 1: scientific Study of Happiness. If you've ever heard me talk
Speaker 1: about the seventy five year Study of Happiness, so if
Speaker 1: you've ever read that article, it's quoted absolutely everywhere. This
Speaker 1: is the man who completed that seventy five years study.
Speaker 1: I believe the fourth of the researchers involved in that program.
Speaker 1: I couldn't recommend this book more. Doctor Robert Wardinger or
Speaker 1: Bob and I met in Montana courtesy of Arthur Blank,
Speaker 1: who brought us all together at his beautiful ranch in
Speaker 1: Montana introduced us to probably some of the most amazing
Speaker 1: people in the world. In this space. We instantly connected
Speaker 1: a because I geek out on research and science, but
Speaker 1: more importantly because we both have this meditation and mindfulness
Speaker 1: practice that we both deeply love. And beyond that, we
Speaker 1: just had a natural flying conversation. So, Bob, thank you
Speaker 1: for coming back, Thank you for flying in from Boston
Speaker 1: to New York to do this interview. It's so good
Speaker 1: to see you again. Well, it's a treat together to
Speaker 1: see you again. That's the big incentive for me to
Speaker 1: get on a plane and come here to see you now.
Speaker 1: But I appreciate it. I want you know, my community
Speaker 1: appreciates it. I was just saying to you earlier that
Speaker 1: we made this rule for on purpose again, where we
Speaker 1: only wanted interviews to be physical, because I miss this,
Speaker 1: like I miss looking at someone, I miss being able
Speaker 1: to hug someone, I miss being able to have even
Speaker 1: the before and afterwards. When you do a zoom interview,
Speaker 1: you lose the before and afterwards. You're there for the
Speaker 1: interviewing you, whereas we've been talking for the last half
Speaker 1: an hour already. And so I wanted to hear from
Speaker 1: you because you said something interesting to me. You said,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure someone studying it. You're not studying
Speaker 1: it yet. Let's think about that a little bit. What
Speaker 1: do you think has gained or what can be done
Speaker 1: meaningfully through zoom or virtually? But then what is lost
Speaker 1: in your opinion and your thoughts and from your intuition
Speaker 1: on that. Yeah, well, some of the most important things
Speaker 1: are about accessibility. Like what we're finding is that people
Speaker 1: who can't be together physically obviously can be together online.
Speaker 1: Or people who are frightened. So you know, I'm a psychiatrist,
Speaker 1: and many people are really scared to talk to someone
Speaker 1: about their problems. Well, what if you could be in
Speaker 1: your own home and you could just dip atoe in
Speaker 1: the water by trying a video chat with someone who's
Speaker 1: a professional. And I've seen people do that with huge benefit.
Speaker 1: So in that sense, the accessibility is wonderful. People in
Speaker 1: remote areas and all of that. What's lost, I think
Speaker 1: are just what you've been describing this the casual interactions
Speaker 1: that we have and that we love, that we take
Speaker 1: for granted. I mean, it's a reason why you know,
Speaker 1: people talk about the water cooler at the workplace or
Speaker 1: the coffee machine. It's where people run into each other
Speaker 1: and they have these little conversations that might turn out
Speaker 1: to be hugely important, might turn out to spread ideas
Speaker 1: or give people a glimpse of a person they find
Speaker 1: interesting who they've never met before. And so those are
Speaker 1: the things I'm afraid that we're losing. Yeah, remotely. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's a brilliant answer. And I I love
Speaker 1: the perspective that there's actually a positive and a challenge
Speaker 1: to every situation in life. And if we lean into
Speaker 1: the positives, it can be more meaningful, it can be
Speaker 1: more powerful, and instead of obsessing on the negatives. But
Speaker 1: let's talk about the seventy five year study. For anyone
Speaker 1: who doesn't know about this study, could you just give
Speaker 1: us a quick synthesis or synopsis of what you were
Speaker 1: looking at, the types of things that you're assessing, the
Speaker 1: types of behaviors, and then of course the more scientific
Speaker 1: result that you gained from doing that study. So what's
Speaker 1: wonderful for me about this study is that it has
Speaker 1: followed the same people for their entire adult lives. That's
Speaker 1: completely unheard of in the history of science. It just
Speaker 1: doesn't happen. So we started with people who were teenagers
Speaker 1: and followed them for now we're about to enter our
Speaker 1: eighty fifth year. We've followed people for eighty five years.
Speaker 1: Most of the original people have passed away, as you
Speaker 1: can imagine, but we've started studying their children, who are
Speaker 1: all baby boomers. And what's unique about it is to
Speaker 1: be able to see how lives really unfold, not how
Speaker 1: we remember them, because if you think about it, when
Speaker 1: we try to remember what happened to us, there's there
Speaker 1: are big holes in our memories right very well, and
Speaker 1: we get creative about you know, I'll make up stuff
Speaker 1: and then like my wife will correct me and say no,
Speaker 1: it didn't happen that way, and she's always right, yeah.
Speaker 1: And so I think to be able to follow lives
Speaker 1: forward and not know what the outcome is going to
Speaker 1: be is just amazing. So so that's the big picture.
Speaker 1: We started. It started in nineteen thirty eight with two
Speaker 1: studies that didn't even know about each other. A group
Speaker 1: of Harvard College undergraduate students who were chosen by their
Speaker 1: deans as fine, upstanding young men, and in a study
Speaker 1: of how people were going to develop from adolescence to
Speaker 1: young adulthood. They thought maybe the study would go for
Speaker 1: ten years. They never dreamed I'd be talking to you today.
Speaker 1: About the studies still going eighty five years later. The
Speaker 1: other was a study of boys from Boston's poorest and
Speaker 1: most troubled families in the nineteen thirties because a group
Speaker 1: of researchers were interested in why some children from really
Speaker 1: difficult backgrounds stayed out of trouble, how did they stay
Speaker 1: on healthy developmental paths, And so we studied a group
Speaker 1: of young men who hadn't gotten into trouble even though
Speaker 1: their families were plagued by poverty and illness and crime
Speaker 1: and all kinds of difficulty. So those two we've studied together,
Speaker 1: two ends of the spectrum, and now fortunately we've added women.
Speaker 1: We started out with all white males because that's what
Speaker 1: the city of Boston had in nineteen thirty eight for
Speaker 1: research to study. And fortunately more than half women, more
Speaker 1: people from different backgrounds, lots of immigrants. So we're very
Speaker 1: excited about this kind of diverse sample that we've grown into.
Speaker 1: Tell us a bit about the findings over the seventy
Speaker 1: five years now obviously eighty five, but tell us a
Speaker 1: bit about that core finding, because I think the most
Speaker 1: common finding that stated is that in this Harvid seventy
Speaker 1: five years study that when you look at the indicators
Speaker 1: of human happiness, the quality of our relationships was seen
Speaker 1: as the number one indicator. Was there a number two,
Speaker 1: was there a number three, or was it just so
Speaker 1: far out? Like, tell us a bit about the findings
Speaker 1: and then we'll dive into the number one finding. Right. Well,
Speaker 1: the biggest findings were about relationships, but also about taking
Speaker 1: care of our health, taking care of our bodies. One
Speaker 1: of our study members said, take care of your body
Speaker 1: as though you're gonna need it for a hundred years.
Speaker 1: And so what we do find, and many other studies find,
Speaker 1: is that getting regular exercise, eating well, getting decent sleep,
Speaker 1: getting regular medical care, if you can all of those things,
Speaker 1: not smoking, not using alcohol or drugs, not abusing at least,
Speaker 1: that all of those turn out to have huge effects
Speaker 1: on how long we live, how healthy we stay. But
Speaker 1: the surprising thing was what you named, which is this
Speaker 1: finding that the people who stayed healthiest and lived longest
Speaker 1: had the best and the warmest connections with other human beings.
Speaker 1: When we started seeing that in our data, we didn't
Speaker 1: believe it because we thought, well, how you know, okay,
Speaker 1: I mean, if I have nice relationships, it'll keep me happy.
Speaker 1: Or sure, but how could it actually keep me from
Speaker 1: getting arthritis or type two diabetes or how could that be?
Speaker 1: And so we and other researchers have found over and
Speaker 1: over again that this is the case, and that it
Speaker 1: seems to have something to do with stress, and that
Speaker 1: relationships help us manage stress and help us manage powerful
Speaker 1: negative feelings. One of the things we all know is
Speaker 1: that all of us have stress every day, right, and
Speaker 1: sometimes really bad things happen during the day. We come
Speaker 1: home and we're upset. What we find is that if
Speaker 1: you have someone who you can talk to at home,
Speaker 1: or someone you can call up who's a good listener,
Speaker 1: who's a sympathetic listener, you can literally feel your body
Speaker 1: calm down. And what that means is you can literally
Speaker 1: feel your body physiology and chemistry come back to normal.
Speaker 1: And that's the main thing that we think relationships do
Speaker 1: for us. Understood, So you are actually saying that not
Speaker 1: only do positive relationships help us monitor stress and maybe
Speaker 1: regulate stress, but challenging relationships can actually cause health issues too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they apposite, is also true, very conflicting conflictual relationships. So
Speaker 1: challenging can be good, right, And that actually doesn't break
Speaker 1: down our health. But relationships where there's abuse, relationship where
Speaker 1: there's constant unhappy arguing, and relationships where difficulties never get resolved.
Speaker 1: Those take a toll because they keep us in what
Speaker 1: we call fight or flight response. You know, the fight
Speaker 1: or flight responses, our natural response where if you get scared,
Speaker 1: your body prepares to run away or to fight or
Speaker 1: meet with a challenge that's meant to be temporary. We're
Speaker 1: meant to come back to baseline, to equanimity. If we
Speaker 1: can't do that, then we're in trouble. There's one thing
Speaker 1: I love about this book is that it's practical, it's scientific,
Speaker 1: it's thoughtful, It helps us come back to our essence.
Speaker 1: It's also simple in the sense that it kind of
Speaker 1: kindly nudges us and reminds us to go back to
Speaker 1: what we already know, but that we keep neglecting. And
Speaker 1: there's this one study that you quote in the book.
Speaker 1: Can you say In a two thousand survey, millennials were
Speaker 1: asked about their most important life goals. Seventy six percent
Speaker 1: said that becoming rich was their number one goal. Fifty
Speaker 1: percent said a major goal was to become famous. Now
Speaker 1: that's in two thousand and seven, and I think if
Speaker 1: that study was done now, those things would still hold
Speaker 1: true to a great degree. And then you say, more
Speaker 1: than a decade later, after millennials spent more time as adults,
Speaker 1: similar questions were asked again in a pair of surveys.
Speaker 1: Fame was now lower on the list, but the top
Speaker 1: goals included things like making money, having a successful career,
Speaker 1: and becoming debt free. How do we when we talk
Speaker 1: about the good life, which is such a elusive topic
Speaker 1: for so long? You know, I feel like we've been
Speaker 1: studying the good life through culture, through spirituality, through philosophy
Speaker 1: for thousands of years, but the amount of advancement we've
Speaker 1: made in that pursuit is very literal compared to going
Speaker 1: to the moon or going to space, or even healthcare
Speaker 1: for that matter, or I think even healthcare from a
Speaker 1: physical health perspective has had so much acceleration, but our
Speaker 1: understanding of the mind and the heart still seems to
Speaker 1: be fairly limited. And when you see those goals, you see, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's what people are aspiring for, is someone who's living
Speaker 1: the good life aspiring for because I think we often
Speaker 1: think of a good life is these habits but what
Speaker 1: is a good aspiration If the aspiration is not money,
Speaker 1: not fame, not a successful career, well, the aspiration can
Speaker 1: be different for different people. So they've done research on
Speaker 1: this and they have these different types of well being.
Speaker 1: There's one called hedonic wellbeing, which is what we all
Speaker 1: think of as as just enjoying a good party, a
Speaker 1: good meal, having a good conversation. I'm really enjoying this
Speaker 1: conversation right now, I'm having hedonic wellbeing. Right. But other people,
Speaker 1: well all of us to some extent, want also a
Speaker 1: sense of purpose and a sense of meaning. It's called
Speaker 1: you demonic well being. The best example is you have
Speaker 1: a small child who you read to at night before bed,
Speaker 1: and you're reading the book good Night, and your child
Speaker 1: wants you to read that book for the eighth time
Speaker 1: and you are exhausted. Right, is it fun? No? But
Speaker 1: is it the most meaningful thing you could imagine doing? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: And so this sense of I'm doing this because I
Speaker 1: love it, because I'm on purpose, because I care deeply
Speaker 1: about what I'm doing, that's a different kind of well being.
Speaker 1: And then there's a third kind that they've begun to identify,
Speaker 1: which is a psychologically rich life so many of us
Speaker 1: value just having interesting experiences, going to new places, doing
Speaker 1: things we've never done before. So those three things, having
Speaker 1: a good time now, feeling like I'm doing meaningful activity,
Speaker 1: and feeling like I'm having interesting experiences, those are all
Speaker 1: flavors of happiness. And I think that each of us
Speaker 1: is a mix of all three, but some of us
Speaker 1: really want one more than the others. Is it meant
Speaker 1: to be balanced, or is it that is there a
Speaker 1: hierarchy of needs there? Or what have we learned about
Speaker 1: those two areas well? There's officially there's no there's no
Speaker 1: right or wrong way. But what we know, and I
Speaker 1: think we know this from spiritual traditions more than my science,
Speaker 1: that when we do invest in things outside of the self,
Speaker 1: we are happier, and we're happier for longer, and we
Speaker 1: feel more of a sense that life is worth living.
Speaker 1: So I would say that we need to be sure
Speaker 1: we have some of that so we don't end up
Speaker 1: looking back and saying, gosh, I wasted my life. I
Speaker 1: feel like one of the most difficult things for a
Speaker 1: lot of people today is self awareness, in being aware
Speaker 1: of what we think is good for us, what we
Speaker 1: think is right for us. I even had a friend
Speaker 1: to say to me yesterday. They say to me, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I'm actually going to say no to that
Speaker 1: opportunity now because I realized I was only going to
Speaker 1: say yes because of what people thought. And so you
Speaker 1: see that a lot where so many of our choices
Speaker 1: and our decisions are based on what other people think
Speaker 1: is good for us, or what other people think is
Speaker 1: right for us. I remember growing up and only wanting
Speaker 1: to aspire for things that other people rewarded. So if
Speaker 1: the most celebrated and respected person in my community growing
Speaker 1: up was an actuary for a career, I wanted to
Speaker 1: be an actuary at ten years old. But if you
Speaker 1: asked me what an actuery did, I had zero idea.
Speaker 1: And I think that this idea perpetuates. So what can
Speaker 1: we do to get closer to knowing what is good
Speaker 1: for us so that we can truly live a good life? Yes, well,
Speaker 1: and I just want to I just want to emphasize
Speaker 1: what you said, because when we asked our original participants
Speaker 1: in our study, hundreds of them, we said, when you
Speaker 1: know you're eighty years old, now, when you look back
Speaker 1: on your life, what do you regret the most? More
Speaker 1: than anything. Many of them said, I wish I hadn't
Speaker 1: spent so much time worrying about what other people thought,
Speaker 1: And that's just what you're naming. So then the question is, well,
Speaker 1: what could we do to change that? And I think
Speaker 1: what I've learned more and more in my own life
Speaker 1: is simply to check in more with myself about what
Speaker 1: are the things that raise my energy when I engage
Speaker 1: in them, and what are the things that lower my energy.
Speaker 1: So maybe like doing actuarial work might lower your image, right, So,
Speaker 1: and some people actually embark on courses of study and
Speaker 1: then realize, how did I get here? I don't like this?
Speaker 1: And so I think one of the things we can
Speaker 1: do every day is simply to pay attention to that
Speaker 1: internal sense of being enlivened or being depleted by activities
Speaker 1: that we're doing during our day, and really pay attention
Speaker 1: to that, and when you can turn toward the activities
Speaker 1: that are enlivening. Yeah, I often say to people it's
Speaker 1: like reflecting after you go to a restaurant. So what
Speaker 1: do you do when you leave a restaurant? You talk
Speaker 1: about the food, you talk about the ambiance, you talk
Speaker 1: about the service, and you're like, oh, I really like
Speaker 1: that dish, but I didn't love that one and all
Speaker 1: the way to us so wonderful. He was so helpful,
Speaker 1: and I really like the design and the aesthetic of
Speaker 1: that space. Right, So you talk about it when you
Speaker 1: order in, you do the same thing. When you go
Speaker 1: to watch a movie or a TV show, we do
Speaker 1: the same thing. We go, oh, yeah, that actor's performance
Speaker 1: was amazing, or that actress was incredible, or that scene
Speaker 1: you know that was brilliant. Like we analyze things, but
Speaker 1: I find that we don't analyze our lives in the
Speaker 1: same way. Like when you go to a sports game,
Speaker 1: you could spend the whole day talking about it. Or
Speaker 1: if something happens to another couple in the media, or
Speaker 1: if something happens to a famous person in the media,
Speaker 1: we will analyze it for days and weeks and months.
Speaker 1: But when it comes to our own lives, we rarely
Speaker 1: paid that attention as a psychiatrist, And why is that?
Speaker 1: Why is it that we can obsess over these external
Speaker 1: big or minute like we either obsess over these tiny
Speaker 1: experiences of food and movies and entertainment, or we'll talk
Speaker 1: about other people's problems for hours and hours and hours
Speaker 1: but when it comes to our own we've really struggled
Speaker 1: to say, you know, the argument we had last week, like,
Speaker 1: let's just reflect on that for a second, right, right,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe it takes us back to the actuary problem,
Speaker 1: which is which is that we are We are so
Speaker 1: trained from the time we're small to respond to rewards,
Speaker 1: to respond when people say, you know, good girl, a
Speaker 1: good boy, that was a good thing you did, right,
Speaker 1: and so so we are trained to respond when people
Speaker 1: praise us, we're trained to respond when people correct us,
Speaker 1: and we're not trained to look inward. You know, you
Speaker 1: have a deep meditative practice. You have done a considerable
Speaker 1: amount of training to look inward to notice what arises
Speaker 1: in the moment. I've spent a lot of my life
Speaker 1: on a meditation cushion as well, doing that. It's a
Speaker 1: radical practice. But you don't have to meditate to do this, right.
Speaker 1: We know, you can be walking along the street, you
Speaker 1: can be looking at a beautiful tree and just start
Speaker 1: checking in with where you are and what's coming up
Speaker 1: for you. But we have to learn to do it.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing that I think we don't learn
Speaker 1: enough as we're as we're growing up. This is exclusively
Speaker 1: for my LA listeners. Something Joyful is coming to air
Speaker 1: one stores soon. I'm so excited for this, so make
Speaker 1: sure to catch this announcement on the next episode of
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Speaker 1: What are some of the things that we should reward
Speaker 1: or not should but what are some healthier things to
Speaker 1: reward in one another to create a healthier relationship. If
Speaker 1: we're trying to create these positive relationships in our life.
Speaker 1: What would be the things that we should encourage and
Speaker 1: reward and respect. I think we should reward people taking
Speaker 1: risks with us. You know, if someone says to me,
Speaker 1: I was upset when you said that, my first reaction
Speaker 1: is to get defensive and say, well not, you know,
Speaker 1: to excuse myself. But I've learned that sometimes what really
Speaker 1: helps is to say thank you for being willing to
Speaker 1: tell me that. Right, So, if someone will take a
Speaker 1: risk with me, I begin to say, oh, that's a gift.
Speaker 1: And when they do too, and when they take risks,
Speaker 1: and when I take risks, our relationships deeper, you know,
Speaker 1: because if we trust each other and we realize we
Speaker 1: can trust each other, that you're not going to come
Speaker 1: back and criticize me. You're going to be curious and
Speaker 1: welcoming when I tell you about something difficult. So I
Speaker 1: would say, let's reward each other for take going out
Speaker 1: on a limb, for taking risks with us. Let's reward
Speaker 1: each other for trying new things instead of just doing
Speaker 1: the same old I mean, most of the time when
Speaker 1: someone in our world tries something new, we're like shocked,
Speaker 1: like that's not what I expect from you, and so
Speaker 1: it takes a minute to re orient and say, oh,
Speaker 1: that person is trying something different, that person is taking
Speaker 1: a risk, is challenging themselves. And so I would say,
Speaker 1: let's let's applaud that when we can. I mean, unless
Speaker 1: they're doing something, but you know, yeah, let's applaud the
Speaker 1: thing that where people are trying to grow. Yeah, some
Speaker 1: of the things that other people do that trigger us,
Speaker 1: I feel as so much because we are not allowing
Speaker 1: ourselves to do those things. Like I had a friend
Speaker 1: recently who's moving country and he was telling his friends
Speaker 1: out some of our friends that he's moving country, and
Speaker 1: everyone just had negative things to say, like why would
Speaker 1: you move now, Like kids are too old, they're already
Speaker 1: in school, Like it's a tough time for them, Like
Speaker 1: it's going to go wrong, or you're going to come
Speaker 1: running back. And we were talking about this, and it's
Speaker 1: exactly what you're saying that instead of rewarding that he's
Speaker 1: trying to do something finally, after all these years that's
Speaker 1: true to himself, he's receiving a lot of this backlash
Speaker 1: from around him, and it discourages him. It also, I
Speaker 1: think what people don't realize is that it not only
Speaker 1: discourages the person, it distances you from them because now
Speaker 1: you've not been a part of something that's significant to
Speaker 1: them in life. I remember, you know, when I've moved
Speaker 1: to country, I've moved state, and every time I've done that,
Speaker 1: when people have not been able to be a part
Speaker 1: of that decision with me, it makes me feel less
Speaker 1: understood by them, if that's accurate. And I think this
Speaker 1: feeling of being understood is what you were speaking about earlier,
Speaker 1: that we're all craving someone that you can pick up
Speaker 1: the phone too and have that meaningful connection with. How
Speaker 1: do we help people understand us better and how do
Speaker 1: we learn to understand other people better? Because if understanding,
Speaker 1: I mean when I look at relationships, I've realized that
Speaker 1: I think Jamie McGuire says that she says love is
Speaker 1: an overused word, and I've often added to that that
Speaker 1: I think love is an underdefined word. And as I've
Speaker 1: been on my journey to really unpack what is love
Speaker 1: between people, I often come to words like it's not
Speaker 1: even gratitude or care. It really comes down to things
Speaker 1: like safety and understanding. When I think about love, I'm like, yes,
Speaker 1: safety and understand if someone feels safe around someone, that's
Speaker 1: a sense of love, and I mean emotionally safe, physically safe,
Speaker 1: mentally safe. And then if I feel understood by someone
Speaker 1: where I don't have to explain, like you didn't really
Speaker 1: have to explain to me that you were talking about
Speaker 1: what kind of thing someone would be doing as a risk,
Speaker 1: because I understand you, and I think there's safety in
Speaker 1: the understanding. So how can we understand people better? And
Speaker 1: how do we help people understand us better. One of
Speaker 1: my meditation teachers gave me an instruction just to try
Speaker 1: as I meditated, and he said, especially when you're sitting
Speaker 1: there and you've done this meditation a thousand times, or
Speaker 1: you're washing the dishes, you know, for the three thousandth time,
Speaker 1: right where you're doing something ordinary, he said, ask yourself
Speaker 1: the question what's here now that I have never noticed before?
Speaker 1: And what I find with relationships, particularly the relationships with
Speaker 1: people we think we know so well, right our partners
Speaker 1: or the old friend or my boss, is to ask
Speaker 1: that question, what's here that I've never noticed before? And
Speaker 1: then to share it. You know, I never realized, um
Speaker 1: that you enjoy this, or you know, I love those
Speaker 1: sneakers and I I, you must have taken some care
Speaker 1: to make them, you know anything. Yeah, yeah, they're very cool,
Speaker 1: but just to notice, right. And so what I think,
Speaker 1: what I'm what I'm getting to is curiosity to let
Speaker 1: ourselves be genuinely curious about people, including the people we
Speaker 1: think we know so well. They've actually done a study
Speaker 1: of this where they looked at how tuned in we
Speaker 1: are to each other when we first start dating someone
Speaker 1: and then after we've been together as a couple for
Speaker 1: four or five years. And what they find is that
Speaker 1: when we first start dating, we are much more tuned
Speaker 1: in to each other than we are when we've been
Speaker 1: together for some years because we think we know right,
Speaker 1: whereas when we're dating, we're like, oh, what's this going
Speaker 1: to be like? And is this person into me? And
Speaker 1: you know, and so we when we make a new friend,
Speaker 1: and so I think, really the question is couldn't we
Speaker 1: muster that interest and that curiosity even when we've been
Speaker 1: together a while we know this person. That is such
Speaker 1: a great examples. That's a brilliant study. I'd love to
Speaker 1: take more of a look at that, because I think
Speaker 1: that's such a great example of exactly how that diminishing
Speaker 1: curiosity creates diminishing results in a relationship. And I call
Speaker 1: that concept in my reflection of it, new old and
Speaker 1: old new. So when I meet someone new, I try
Speaker 1: to find out something old about them that because we
Speaker 1: might have that in common. Maybe it's a city we
Speaker 1: lived in, maybe it's a country that we both love.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's a cuisine, and it's something that's in built
Speaker 1: to us. And then when I have known someone for
Speaker 1: a long time and I consider them an old friend,
Speaker 1: let me look for something new in them, as you're saying.
Speaker 1: And so I call it new old, old new, And
Speaker 1: it's always been my way of thinking about it, because
Speaker 1: you're so right. There is always something new you can
Speaker 1: learn about anyone, even if you deeply think you know them.
Speaker 1: And I think that with my wife today. We've been
Speaker 1: married for six years and together for ten, so it's
Speaker 1: a long enough time of our entire life, and I
Speaker 1: feel like I learned new things about her every day.
Speaker 1: And I think what's as important as learning new things
Speaker 1: about my wife every day is unlearning misconceptions I've had
Speaker 1: about her from ten years ago. So there are things
Speaker 1: that I was so sure about who my wife was
Speaker 1: a few years ago. And at the same time, as
Speaker 1: I have to learn the new things, I have to say, well, wait,
Speaker 1: I have to unpack that old idea I had about her.
Speaker 1: That's not why she thinks that way or lives that way.
Speaker 1: This is the reason currently that she lives that way.
Speaker 1: I think we find a lot of it's challenging to
Speaker 1: feel that people are changing. Yes, it's challenging to feel
Speaker 1: that we are changing, and it's challenging to feel that
Speaker 1: people that we love are changing. How do we think
Speaker 1: about allowing ourselves to change and people to change, because
Speaker 1: that seems to be the hardest thing in marriage, in friendship,
Speaker 1: Like I have friends will say to me, like, Jay,
Speaker 1: you've changed now. I don't think that. I think i've
Speaker 1: I think in my core values and how I construct
Speaker 1: my life, I think I'm actually pretty similar. I don't
Speaker 1: think I've changed that much. My external life has changed
Speaker 1: for sure, obviously since living is a monk and then
Speaker 1: after and then how I live now. But I think
Speaker 1: I live with the same purpose and the same intention.
Speaker 1: But how do we allow people to change and allow
Speaker 1: ourselves to change? You know, that is actually the core
Speaker 1: of my spiritual practice. So as you know, if you
Speaker 1: don't mind that, yeah, No, I want you to go
Speaker 1: wherever you want to go. Yeah. The core of Buddhism
Speaker 1: is this the truth that everything is always in the
Speaker 1: process of changing, right, and that some things we can't
Speaker 1: see the rate of change because it's so slow, and
Speaker 1: some things are changing in an obvious way. But what
Speaker 1: Buddhism teaches me is that one of the great sources
Speaker 1: of suffering in my life is when I try to
Speaker 1: hold onto things that are changed, when I try to
Speaker 1: fix them, when I try to freeze them. And what
Speaker 1: you're describing, you know, with your wife, when you're just
Speaker 1: what we're describing with a friend of I'm trying. I'm
Speaker 1: trying to keep you in the same category I had
Speaker 1: you in ten years ago. Right, So important to really
Speaker 1: let yourself notice what is what's evolving, what's different and
Speaker 1: same with ourselves, and that yes, maybe our core values
Speaker 1: stay the same, but even that we express them differently.
Speaker 1: I mean, we talked with some of our study participants
Speaker 1: when they were in their thirties about how they were expressing, say,
Speaker 1: a desire to take care of their family, and of
Speaker 1: course what they did in their thirties to take care
Speaker 1: of their families was very different from what they did
Speaker 1: in their eighties, and so the values stay the same,
Speaker 1: but the behavior, the expression can change. And so all
Speaker 1: of these things are just can be sources of endless
Speaker 1: interest and curiosity. Yeah, and I think it comes with
Speaker 1: that expectation, right, that when you meet someone, you'll hope,
Speaker 1: subconsciously is that they're going to stay this way forever. Yes.
Speaker 1: It's almost like when you meet a two year old
Speaker 1: and they're just adorable and you're like, hope, this child
Speaker 1: just stays this way forever because you find them, you know,
Speaker 1: cute and fun and playful or whatever it may be.
Speaker 1: And it's the same with our partners. When you meet
Speaker 1: your partner, you're like, God, they're perfect the way they are, right,
Speaker 1: And that idea that someone is perfect right now is
Speaker 1: often the issue with progress because they are going to change.
Speaker 1: You're also going to realize how imperfect you both are.
Speaker 1: And and I think letting go of that expectation is
Speaker 1: what's so difficult. It's almost like when you when you
Speaker 1: buy a phone or you buy a physical item. It
Speaker 1: may be perfect, but you know it's going to get knocked,
Speaker 1: it's gonna get dropped, it's gonna you know, it's gonna
Speaker 1: need an upgrade. It's so we accept that to some degree.
Speaker 1: But with people which are these dynamic, vibrant, energetic beings,
Speaker 1: we almost like no, no, no, be technology, Like you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a weird mindset, and I wonder how
Speaker 1: we can really learn to let go of that, Like
Speaker 1: it's a constant I think it's a constant process, right,
Speaker 1: because our minds do want to hold on to expectation,
Speaker 1: certain expectations, certain images. We would go crazy if everything
Speaker 1: we're always up for grabs, right, Like, at least I
Speaker 1: knew roughly who I was going to find when I
Speaker 1: came to see you today, thank goodness. But the other
Speaker 1: side of that is just what you're saying that we
Speaker 1: need to keep looking and see, well, you know, I
Speaker 1: haven't seen you in three years, and how are we
Speaker 1: each different now? And that's a hard thing to keep doing.
Speaker 1: But just to remember, I think, as you're pointing out,
Speaker 1: that we want things to stay the same, and so
Speaker 1: it's going to take some effort to pay attention to
Speaker 1: the changes that are happening all the time. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think one of the biggest relationships speaking about the good
Speaker 1: life and talking about relationships. I think, as we know
Speaker 1: through resets who studies, so much of our expectations as
Speaker 1: we were talking about, our beliefs about love about relationships
Speaker 1: come from our family. And often I find today that
Speaker 1: the amount of people that say to me that their
Speaker 1: family is toxic or they experience a really negative energy
Speaker 1: from their family, Like I hear that over and over
Speaker 1: and over again, and I'm sure as I'm sure you
Speaker 1: hear it more and more and more. And I find
Speaker 1: like families that were meant to be people's places of
Speaker 1: refuge of sacredness, often people don't feel that way. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it's all the families fault either.
Speaker 1: I think there's responsibility on both sides, and it's a
Speaker 1: complex matter. But how does someone navigate? What should someone
Speaker 1: be thinking about if they have family members or a
Speaker 1: family member that causes them a great deal of stress,
Speaker 1: pressure and insecurity? Like how does someone what does some
Speaker 1: what't you? Someone me thinking about? What? Could someone ask?
Speaker 1: How how did they reflect on that? Perhaps first to
Speaker 1: reflect on the positive? Someone once told me, you know,
Speaker 1: no one will ever care about you as much as
Speaker 1: your family will care about your well being. And I
Speaker 1: know there are exceptions to that, but basically, these are
Speaker 1: the people who are your people, and so if if
Speaker 1: there are ways to preserve those ties, it is worth it.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's not. Sometimes people need to walk away from
Speaker 1: their families of origin. I totally get that, but but
Speaker 1: to at least be sure that what's there to be
Speaker 1: invested in has been appreciated. Right. But then, often what
Speaker 1: gets families into trouble is just what we're talking about,
Speaker 1: which is the problem of allowing each other to grow
Speaker 1: and change. I mean, I have a son who's in
Speaker 1: his thirties and who gets angry at me when I
Speaker 1: ask him, well, you know, do you need a warmer
Speaker 1: coat when you go out today? We're and he says, Dad,
Speaker 1: I'm in my thirties. Why do I you know? And
Speaker 1: I stop and I said, oh, you know, if you
Speaker 1: hadn't been so dependent on me when you were two
Speaker 1: years old, if you hadn't trained me to worry about
Speaker 1: these things, we'd be fine. He's saying to me, Dad,
Speaker 1: recognize that I'm grown up, right, And often the difficulties
Speaker 1: we have in families are the difficulties of people not
Speaker 1: allowing each other to grow and change into who they
Speaker 1: are at this moment. I mean, what if your family
Speaker 1: had said you have to be an actuary and if not,
Speaker 1: you are a failure. So so I think so, I
Speaker 1: think what you're saying is is right that that, yes,
Speaker 1: many families are filled with this kind of strife, and
Speaker 1: often it comes from this difficulty recognizing that we are
Speaker 1: all changing and then allowing each other to change and grow.
Speaker 1: I find that a lot of generations today are obviously
Speaker 1: more open to therapy, more open to these types of reflection.
Speaker 1: I find that when I speak to some people that
Speaker 1: I know that they may find that certain older generations
Speaker 1: are like, well, what's the need for therapy or what's
Speaker 1: the need for that? Like, you know, everything's okay, Like
Speaker 1: we can figure this out. It's a family matter. Again,
Speaker 1: there's truth on both sides in different ways, right, But
Speaker 1: I guess I think one of the biggest challenges is
Speaker 1: that a lot of people it's like when you're young,
Speaker 1: you always feel the adults don't get it, and when
Speaker 1: you're an adult, you feel like the kids don't get it, right,
Speaker 1: Like that's like and everyone and the funny thing is
Speaker 1: we all experience it. It's like there's that famous quote,
Speaker 1: I don't know who said it, but it's the day
Speaker 1: you realize your parents were right. Your kids will be
Speaker 1: telling you that you're wrong, Like, I don't know how, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's brilliant. Yeah it's so good. And I don't know
Speaker 1: who said it, but I always think about that. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: I was so interesting. When I was young. I used
Speaker 1: to think this of I'm thirty five years old, and
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that's what I used to think
Speaker 1: of thirty five year olds or someone with that opinion.
Speaker 1: Now that I'm thirty five, I'm like, oh, I think
Speaker 1: this differently. How do we It's like I'm asking questions
Speaker 1: here that I know there aren't any conclusive answers to,
Speaker 1: but I think they are important questions to ask. It's like,
Speaker 1: how do we live a life where we realized that
Speaker 1: from a different vantage point you're going to have different
Speaker 1: beliefs and almost opening yourself up and not stereotyping an
Speaker 1: eighteen year old or stereotyping in twenty one year old,
Speaker 1: or stereotyping a sixty year old or a seventy or old,
Speaker 1: like I think we have stereotypes about like, oh, well
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm like, well, wait a minute. When
Speaker 1: I was they said, you did the same thing, and
Speaker 1: we you know that kind of thing, like when I moved.
Speaker 1: It's like what you just said about the your son
Speaker 1: and the coat. It's like when I moved. I moved
Speaker 1: country when I was twenty eight. So I moved from
Speaker 1: the UK to the US when I was twenty eight
Speaker 1: years and my mom was so scared for me. I
Speaker 1: was like, Mom, you moved to London when you were sixteen,
Speaker 1: Like you left. She left like a country where there
Speaker 1: was a war in Yemen between the Yemen and the British,
Speaker 1: and then she left and moved to England during that time.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, you left a war torn country. It's
Speaker 1: sixteen years old. I left to follow my purpose and
Speaker 1: passion like at twenty eight, like you did something way harder,
Speaker 1: but you're so scared for me. And I know that
Speaker 1: that's love, of course, I know that that's love. But
Speaker 1: it's interesting how it's like you took the biggest risk
Speaker 1: and you kind of don't even want me to take
Speaker 1: this one, right, because it's hard to imagine to reimagine
Speaker 1: ourselves at an earlier age in a way that was
Speaker 1: quite capable, as she must have been as a sixteen
Speaker 1: year old and I'm sure it was incredibly hard and
Speaker 1: she managed. Wow. These So we in our Lifespan Research Foundation,
Speaker 1: we developed this program that you were actually part of
Speaker 1: helping us imagine, Oh, I love this. In Montana, it
Speaker 1: was we call it Roadmaps for Life Transitions, where we
Speaker 1: have five sessions where where we bring some of these
Speaker 1: insights from our research into small group sessions that people
Speaker 1: can really learn from and use. And the first session
Speaker 1: we ask people to bring a photograph of themselves when
Speaker 1: they were half as old as they are now. And
Speaker 1: then they go into small groups and they show each
Speaker 1: other their photograph and that the assignment is to tell
Speaker 1: each other, Okay, what did life look like to you
Speaker 1: when you were the person in this photograph and how
Speaker 1: has life changed? How has your view of life changed now?
Speaker 1: And it really underscores that difference between well, this is
Speaker 1: what it was like when I was sixteen and leaving Yemen,
Speaker 1: and this is what it's like for me now, And
Speaker 1: then she gets to think, oh, my twenty eight year
Speaker 1: old son, oh, I may have more of a sense
Speaker 1: now of what life is like for him. But it's
Speaker 1: a kind of active reimagining of life at a different
Speaker 1: from a different vantage point from a different time. I
Speaker 1: love that example, remember that exact conversation we had because
Speaker 1: I talked about how all my work is dedicated to
Speaker 1: helping people make life transitions, because I think that's where
Speaker 1: all the pressure this stress, like when you're just getting married,
Speaker 1: or you're just getting divorced, when you're starting a new job,
Speaker 1: or leaving an old woman, when you're moving country or
Speaker 1: moving home, like that's well, can you share more about
Speaker 1: that program and some of the insights in the book
Speaker 1: that what are other ways that people can reflect on
Speaker 1: life transitions in a healthy way. So we do a
Speaker 1: session where we ask people to clarify their values, you know,
Speaker 1: as you ask people to think about all the time,
Speaker 1: and we ask, well, what are the two or three
Speaker 1: values that you couldn't imagine living your life without. And
Speaker 1: then we say map out a typical week in your
Speaker 1: life and write down where you can express these values.
Speaker 1: And some people are really shocked that they're not able
Speaker 1: to bring their values into much of their daily life.
Speaker 1: We do another session where we ask people to map
Speaker 1: their relationship universe and say, well, who are you close to,
Speaker 1: who would you like to be closer to, Who have
Speaker 1: you had troubles with but you'd like to mend a relationship.
Speaker 1: We do another one where we say, actually it's the
Speaker 1: leaving Yemen. It's the We ask what are some of
Speaker 1: the biggest challenges, the biggest transitions you've had to make
Speaker 1: in your life so far, and what were the strengths
Speaker 1: that you were able to bring to managing those transitions.
Speaker 1: And then we ask you, what do you see coming
Speaker 1: down the road, and how can you use those strengths
Speaker 1: that you already have to anticipate meeting this next challenge
Speaker 1: that's coming along for you. I love that question because
Speaker 1: I think I do that subconsciously all the time. Whenever
Speaker 1: I'm going through a new challenge, I automatically reflect on
Speaker 1: an old one. Yeah, I think to myself, how did
Speaker 1: I get through that? When I got through that, Like
Speaker 1: I was telling you about everything I went through surgery,
Speaker 1: just think about was the last mine and through surgery,
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, when I was six, I dislocated
Speaker 1: my wrist. I mean I can barely remember it. All
Speaker 1: I remember is I was in the park. I was
Speaker 1: swinging on the monkey bars or whatever they're called. I
Speaker 1: fell on the last one because I was going too
Speaker 1: fast and I fell on my wrist and I just lookate.
Speaker 1: I was in agony. Parents had to rush me the hospital.
Speaker 1: I had a cast on my arm for like three
Speaker 1: to six months. Everyone was writing on it in school.
Speaker 1: But I got through that when I was six, and
Speaker 1: I was like, well, maybe I healed faster at six,
Speaker 1: So I was like okay. And then when I was
Speaker 1: twenty five twenty six, I had polyps in my throat
Speaker 1: which I had to be lasered out. I had to
Speaker 1: eat through a store. I couldn't talk for six months.
Speaker 1: I practically lost the sound of my voice. The texture
Speaker 1: of my voice had changed. I'm now back to sounding
Speaker 1: how I used to before. If now I'm a little
Speaker 1: bit deeper, which is great. But that was pretty tough
Speaker 1: because I was an adult already and going through that
Speaker 1: was challenging. And so I was like okay. When I
Speaker 1: was going through this surgery, I was like, okay, I
Speaker 1: got this, like I've done hard things before, and that
Speaker 1: gave me more strength as opposed to like, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: going through a new surgery. It's brand new. I have
Speaker 1: never been through anything, you know. So I think that's
Speaker 1: a really, really great activity. And I love hearing about
Speaker 1: these practical exercises, because I think that that's what we need.
Speaker 1: We need to make things tangible and visual. Yes, And
Speaker 1: I think we need to remind ourselves of some of
Speaker 1: the things that we take for granted. Like I didn't
Speaker 1: know what that surgery was going to be like, and
Speaker 1: I and I was Okay, I calmed myself down, I
Speaker 1: went into it, I came out fine. You know, it's
Speaker 1: just kind of like I did this, I did this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And we need to remind ourselves of the hard things
Speaker 1: we've already done. Yeah, And this time there's one thing
Speaker 1: that went the other way. So whenever anyone talks to
Speaker 1: me about anesthetic, right or anesthesia, whenever I had to
Speaker 1: do one of these surgeries, I've always had a positive
Speaker 1: experience with it because I'll pray and meditate a lot
Speaker 1: before a surgery, naturally, and then when I come out,
Speaker 1: I find that those few seconds I don't think we
Speaker 1: would organized, but the few seconds that I'm like coming
Speaker 1: out of the effect of anesthesia, I have like really
Speaker 1: powerful spiritual experiences, like some of my favorite spiritual experiences
Speaker 1: that have happened in those moments. And this time the
Speaker 1: opposite happened. I actually came out of it with something
Speaker 1: called an electicis, which is a partial collapse of the lung,
Speaker 1: and I couldn't breathe for like a week, and so
Speaker 1: I was like gasping for air. And it was so
Speaker 1: funny because I went into it so positive, hoping that
Speaker 1: I was going to have another amazingly spiritual experience, and
Speaker 1: when I came out the other side, I was I
Speaker 1: was just about just amount of life and yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's But I liked that idea of and I think
Speaker 1: I would love to ask that to my mom. Actually,
Speaker 1: I would love to ask her to reflect on her strengths,
Speaker 1: because I don't think she's probably done that. I think
Speaker 1: she just sees it as that's what we had to do,
Speaker 1: or that was normal, or what else could we do?
Speaker 1: Like they just see it as they just see it
Speaker 1: as like, well, that was the natural journey of life.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, no, it wasn't, Mum. You could they
Speaker 1: just stayed where you were, but you did something very brave.
Speaker 1: And I think reminding our parents of that and reflecting
Speaker 1: with our parents and that could be really powerful. So
Speaker 1: I love those activities. I wanted to ask you, going
Speaker 1: back a bit to the family piece, what are the
Speaker 1: negative effects on our health when there's someone in our life,
Speaker 1: could be family, could be our partner, could be a
Speaker 1: friend that's there but they're causing continued issues or challenges
Speaker 1: or I think there was this beautiful quote you hadn't
Speaker 1: hear from John Steinbeck. You said, a sad soul can
Speaker 1: kill you quicker, far quicker than a germ. And I
Speaker 1: know that that can be you know, sometimes it can
Speaker 1: be your own soul. But the idea that there's someone
Speaker 1: in your life that's like, it's almost like if we
Speaker 1: were doing this interview and there was like a constant tapping,
Speaker 1: like a constant tapping, we could probably still get by
Speaker 1: because I'm focused, but there's an irritation, there's an agitation,
Speaker 1: there's some sort of distraction that's going on. I think
Speaker 1: sometimes people feel that in their life life that I'm
Speaker 1: trying to get over my life, but there's this like
Speaker 1: recurring thing, this person, this individual, What it talk to
Speaker 1: me about? What that does to our health? Like, how
Speaker 1: does that what does that kind of impact us? So
Speaker 1: when does it impact us? Well, what we know is
Speaker 1: that sources of irritation are stressors, and so it has
Speaker 1: that long term chronic effect on our bodies we assume.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know that anyone's studied, you know,
Speaker 1: a tapping noise and what it does to us, although
Speaker 1: actually noise pollution is one of those, yeah, cognitive load
Speaker 1: as well, cognitive load. So what we do know is
Speaker 1: that being in a chronically stressful relationship does break down
Speaker 1: the body, and that there have been a couple of
Speaker 1: studies that have shown, for example, with marriages, that leaving
Speaker 1: and a really acrimonious relationship is better for you than stain,
Speaker 1: even though there it's very painful to break up a
Speaker 1: long term partnership and all that. So I think that
Speaker 1: the question then becomes, how do we discern when a
Speaker 1: relationship should be worked on and when it's important to
Speaker 1: step away? And I think it's always a matter of wisdom,
Speaker 1: of bringing wisdom to this to say, how much do
Speaker 1: I have invested, you know, if we have children, if
Speaker 1: we've build a life together, I'm going to work really
Speaker 1: hard to make sure I don't throw that away until
Speaker 1: I find that there's just no saving it, right, And
Speaker 1: people do that. But on the other hand, sometimes there
Speaker 1: are friendships, there are relationships that are just chronically irritating
Speaker 1: and they can be stepped away from and more nurturing
Speaker 1: relationships can be cultivated instead. So it really is a
Speaker 1: constant matter of discernment. But I will say that I
Speaker 1: don't want to advocate just being done with a relationship
Speaker 1: because there are difficulties, Because there are conflicts in every
Speaker 1: relationship of any depth. Right, They're going to be disagreements.
Speaker 1: Many of those disagreements can be worked out, and working
Speaker 1: them out is a source of growth and can often
Speaker 1: strengthen the relationship. So it's important to try where you
Speaker 1: can to work out difficulties because the potential for benefit
Speaker 1: is huge. And I think that's the challenge, right. I
Speaker 1: think we don't have the tools to figure out difficult relationships.
Speaker 1: It's almost like no one ever went to that class.
Speaker 1: There wasn't that class at school. Your family has its
Speaker 1: own methodology of how to like some families, every family
Speaker 1: has their own way of dealing with conflict subconsciously or consciously.
Speaker 1: So some people go, just put it under the rug,
Speaker 1: we forget about it. We'd be civilized. Some people say, well,
Speaker 1: we fight it out and then we never talk again.
Speaker 1: Some people say, we pretend to be best friends, but
Speaker 1: then behind their back, we talk bad about them, right.
Speaker 1: I think we all subconsciously have a family methodology of
Speaker 1: how we deal with other family members that we don't
Speaker 1: enjoy being with or we do enjoy being with, and
Speaker 1: so our tools are often scarred by how we were
Speaker 1: raised in previous experiences. Like, what are some healthy tools
Speaker 1: to actually address conflict in a relationship, because I think
Speaker 1: that most of us, when we're raised, we're raised to
Speaker 1: avoid conflict. We're raised to avoid having the uncomfortable conversation.
Speaker 1: We're raised to like, well, don't go there, or you
Speaker 1: put someone in their place the extreme opposite, or you
Speaker 1: tell them how it is now. Neither of those things
Speaker 1: lead to better relationships. It was so funny. I there's
Speaker 1: someone in my life yesterday that I wanted to send
Speaker 1: a very clear message to about something that I think
Speaker 1: I didn't appreciate about what they did for me. And
Speaker 1: it came actually because so many people were telling me.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't even my own thought. I didn't even
Speaker 1: have that bitterness inside of me. I didn't even care
Speaker 1: so in love with what I do. But then I
Speaker 1: had like three people in the same week point this
Speaker 1: thing out to me and say, did you see what
Speaker 1: this person did? Like, and I know them, And they
Speaker 1: were like, you see what this person did, Like, I
Speaker 1: think you should tell them. You want me to tell them,
Speaker 1: I think you should tell them. And so I was
Speaker 1: being egged on. And whenever I'm egged on by an
Speaker 1: idea that doesn't come from within my own intuition, I
Speaker 1: always have to check whether it's aligned with my intuition.
Speaker 1: And I that's like a practice that I've had for
Speaker 1: a long time. It's like is this idea mine or
Speaker 1: is this idea of someone else's? Like do I really
Speaker 1: believe this? Or am I being made to believe it?
Speaker 1: Because someone felt like starting a little fire, And I
Speaker 1: literally wrote out the text and then I pressed delete
Speaker 1: and I said, this is not my idea, this is
Speaker 1: I don't genuinely care. I'm gonna let this go. Funniest
Speaker 1: thing happened that even I got a message yesterday. Yesterday,
Speaker 1: I've got a message from this person. It wasn't about
Speaker 1: them apologizing for anything, but they came back with so
Speaker 1: many wonderful ideas. They were coming at me with so
Speaker 1: much good energy. They were they were at and they
Speaker 1: were they were somewhere, and they were like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: saw these things, And I thought of you, and I
Speaker 1: was like wow, like you know, it was just I
Speaker 1: was just about to send this message, and this person's
Speaker 1: thinking about me off their own accord. They don't apologize
Speaker 1: and they don't think they've made a mistake, but they're
Speaker 1: bringing good energy my way. And so the reason I'm
Speaker 1: showing that whole example is just I think we don't
Speaker 1: have tools. One tool for me is always is this
Speaker 1: how I genuinely feel or is this just how someone
Speaker 1: in my life feels about this person? And I'm borrowing
Speaker 1: that emotion one of other tools that we can use
Speaker 1: to deal with conflict and issues better in our in
Speaker 1: our important relationships. Oh, first of all, I love what
Speaker 1: you just named because I think I have been egged
Speaker 1: on by other people as well and then and I
Speaker 1: always regret it, and so taking that pause, do it
Speaker 1: delete it was really important. Another tool for that I've
Speaker 1: found is so important for me is to take a
Speaker 1: long view. So what do I want with this person
Speaker 1: in the long run, right, six months from now, three
Speaker 1: years from now? What do I want? Do I not
Speaker 1: care if they're out of my life? And so it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter how I handle this now or do I care?
Speaker 1: Do I want to make sure that we're okay, because
Speaker 1: this person brings energy into my life, because I care
Speaker 1: about this person, because it means that I will adjust
Speaker 1: my response depending on the long game, if you will,
Speaker 1: what I really want out of this relationship and so
Speaker 1: and usually what that means for me is what you
Speaker 1: and I were talking about before we started this interview,
Speaker 1: which was ideally everybody needs to win, right that there
Speaker 1: Ideally there's no loser and no winner. And so if
Speaker 1: I want to make my point and score one, so
Speaker 1: what and the other person ends up feeling bad or
Speaker 1: put down? It leaves us both disconnected and in a
Speaker 1: bad place. So how then to create a scenario where
Speaker 1: we talk about something that's a problem, Because if I
Speaker 1: just suppress the problems, I'm going to grow more resentful
Speaker 1: and that's going to be its own difficulty in separation.
Speaker 1: And so how do we talk about problems in a
Speaker 1: way that will allow us both to get to a
Speaker 1: place of feeling like we've won, we've gained something, and
Speaker 1: ideally were closer. Yeah, And so usually for me, that
Speaker 1: means writing the angry email and then pressing delete and
Speaker 1: then sleeping on it, meditating on it. And one of
Speaker 1: my teachers wants described as strike while the iron is cold,
Speaker 1: wait till the hot iron cools down. That's great, and
Speaker 1: then think back, Okay, now, how do I feel about
Speaker 1: this and how would I what would be the most
Speaker 1: skillful way to talk to this person about it? And
Speaker 1: so those are some of the pointers that I have
Speaker 1: to keep using with myself when I'm all riled up
Speaker 1: about something. Yeah, that is that kind of aligned with
Speaker 1: the idea of being reflective versus reflective like exactly, yeah, exactly, yeah,
Speaker 1: no that I love that long term thinking. I think
Speaker 1: that is such a great question, because what feels right
Speaker 1: right now might not feel right then right, And I
Speaker 1: think that's how we often play it. We go, well,
Speaker 1: they need to understand this, and they need to learn this,
Speaker 1: and they need to know this, and it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: they could maybe appreciate and digest that if you strike
Speaker 1: while the iron is cold, But when you strike while
Speaker 1: the iron is hot for a conversation like that, you
Speaker 1: actually end up completely alienating that person and pushing them away.
Speaker 1: Had a client the other day who called me and said,
Speaker 1: you know, my boyfriend's about to come back in. You know,
Speaker 1: it was like it was nine pm and then my
Speaker 1: boyfriend's about to come back from work in half an
Speaker 1: hour and I just found this information out about his
Speaker 1: previous relationships, and I'm going to ask him. And I
Speaker 1: was just like, okay, well, first of all, who did
Speaker 1: he get the information from? And she said, oh, it
Speaker 1: was just someone that knows him really, you know, someone
Speaker 1: that used to know him a few years ago. It's like, okay,
Speaker 1: that doesn't sound like great information. I said, second, what's
Speaker 1: he been doing today? She was like, Oh, he's been
Speaker 1: at work, he's been with his family, he had like
Speaker 1: an event, he's been preparing for a wedding, for a
Speaker 1: friend's wedding this weekend. I was like, do you think
Speaker 1: that's the right time to have that conversation? Like he's
Speaker 1: had a long, stressful day, Like is this the right time?
Speaker 1: And I'm sure he'll be open to it, but does
Speaker 1: it mean it's ideal? And they were like no, I
Speaker 1: don't think so. And I was like, okay, so we've
Speaker 1: got two knows so far. And then I was like
Speaker 1: do you again. Then there was the third question that
Speaker 1: I asked, like do you even believe that this is true?
Speaker 1: Like is this even your instinct from your contact with
Speaker 1: this person? They were like no, and I was like, well,
Speaker 1: then you were just about to go and create another
Speaker 1: huge argument that didn't need to happen, and you could
Speaker 1: talk about it later on in a better way. I
Speaker 1: think the long term is brilliant. Another thing that came
Speaker 1: to my mind when we were talking about this was
Speaker 1: there's a great book called Culture Code by Daniel Coyle,
Speaker 1: and he quotes Popovich, who I believe is a basketball coach,
Speaker 1: a very successful basketball coach, so's my basketball level of knowledge.
Speaker 1: And when he would give feedback to his players, he
Speaker 1: had a really fascinating way of giving feedback which would
Speaker 1: encourage them to grow. And then they looked at studies
Speaker 1: and they found that when examiners gave their students feedback
Speaker 1: in this way, that the students performed better. And so
Speaker 1: this type of feedback had three key areas to it.
Speaker 1: The first and I try and I really try and
Speaker 1: practice this in my life because I think that not
Speaker 1: because it's a good technique, but because I actually believe
Speaker 1: it's true. So the first was that you make someone
Speaker 1: aware that you of your standards, like you make someone
Speaker 1: aware like like this is the type of life I
Speaker 1: want to live, This is the type of company I
Speaker 1: want to build. This is the type of relationship I
Speaker 1: want to have. So when I'm talking to my wife,
Speaker 1: I'll often say to her, I say, you know, I
Speaker 1: want a relationship where we're both happy and joyful and
Speaker 1: supporting each other. That's the relationship I want to have.
Speaker 1: And it's like, no one can argue with that. And
Speaker 1: that's a long term view, right, Like what you're saying,
Speaker 1: it's a long term view of me saying I want
Speaker 1: to have a healthy relationship. That's the kind of relationship
Speaker 1: I want to be in. Do you want to be
Speaker 1: in that relationship too? And of course, right? Or like
Speaker 1: I want to build a company with purpose that is
Speaker 1: impacting the world where people are happy to be at
Speaker 1: work every day, right, and so do we all want
Speaker 1: to be in that? So that's one thing setting a standard.
Speaker 1: The second thing is reminding the person that you're speaking
Speaker 1: to that you trust and you believe that they can
Speaker 1: rise to that standard, that I know you want this too,
Speaker 1: and I know you can be there. I know that
Speaker 1: you can. Actually I know that if you want that,
Speaker 1: I know you can have that. Like I know that
Speaker 1: we can have that together. So it's not like a
Speaker 1: teacher it's it's together. And then the third thing is saying,
Speaker 1: you know, what are we both willing to do to
Speaker 1: get there? Now that we know we want to be there,
Speaker 1: we trust we can both get there? What are we
Speaker 1: both willing to do to get there? And I think
Speaker 1: when you think about relationships that way, you go, oh wow,
Speaker 1: things could be solved, you know if you if you
Speaker 1: had an effective conversation. And I often say to people,
Speaker 1: use us and we, not you and me. You know,
Speaker 1: there's such a like you versus me, whereas us and
Speaker 1: we brings us together. So I'm glad. I'm glad we
Speaker 1: went there because I just think that there are I
Speaker 1: just think we've never learned these tools and it and
Speaker 1: it upsets me because I agree with you that I
Speaker 1: think so many relationships are lots too early. Yeah, or
Speaker 1: they die early even if we live long in them.
Speaker 1: And that's even worse. You know, there's there's a whole
Speaker 1: movement to provide what's called socio emotional learning for children
Speaker 1: right where they create you know, curricula, They create classroom
Speaker 1: sessions where they talk about this is what feelings are,
Speaker 1: this is what it's like when you have an argument
Speaker 1: with a friend, what are the ways you can deal
Speaker 1: with your argument with your friend, you know, how do
Speaker 1: you manage these different difficult things in your life? And
Speaker 1: what they find is that when they offer these programs
Speaker 1: to children, they do better in their academic subjects. They
Speaker 1: don't get into trouble as often in school, they don't
Speaker 1: get involved with alcohol and drugs as much. I mean,
Speaker 1: all these things that flow from these emotional skills and
Speaker 1: social skills that are being taught. And many times when
Speaker 1: they give teachers these programs to teach their children, the
Speaker 1: teachers will come back and say, we need this cross please. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it makes sense, Like you think about so
Speaker 1: much of your work life is into personal skills as
Speaker 1: opposed to just functional things right. And I often think like,
Speaker 1: if you get along with someone, you can work with
Speaker 1: them and coach them and get it right. But if
Speaker 1: you don't get along with someone, it's very hard to
Speaker 1: put in the time to get it right. And I
Speaker 1: find that more and more and more, Like I think,
Speaker 1: for a long time, I worked with companies, or I
Speaker 1: worked in companies where people were hired for their proficiency
Speaker 1: or their skills, and they weren't hired for their attitude.
Speaker 1: And you could tell how that affected company culture, where
Speaker 1: if someone had the right attitude, they could learn the skill,
Speaker 1: but if someone had a poor attitude, no matter how
Speaker 1: skilled they were, it could be damaging to a work environment.
Speaker 1: And when I was inside large organizations, I could see
Speaker 1: that very clearly. You talk about in this book something
Speaker 1: called social fitness and keeping our relationships in shape, seeing
Speaker 1: what do we how do we know? How do we
Speaker 1: become aware of this? First of all, the social fitness
Speaker 1: of a relationship, or our social fitness, and how do
Speaker 1: we keep our relationships in shape? Well, this concept sort
Speaker 1: of came out of our finding that many people felt
Speaker 1: that they weren't spending time with the people who were
Speaker 1: most important to them, And in fact, that was one
Speaker 1: of the big regrets when people look back on their
Speaker 1: whole lives, they said, I wish I had spent more
Speaker 1: time with family and friends. And so I started thinking
Speaker 1: about it personally. And because I can spend a lot
Speaker 1: of time working, and I can spend a lot of
Speaker 1: time just on email just you know, as we all can, right,
Speaker 1: there are just so many things we could do all
Speaker 1: day long. And I began to realize that unless I
Speaker 1: actively exercise those social muscles, and by that, I mean
Speaker 1: if I actively keep in touch with my closest zen
Speaker 1: buddy who lives across town, but I don't get to
Speaker 1: see enough, if I don't make the decision to call
Speaker 1: him up and say let's go take a walk, let's
Speaker 1: go have a coffee. If I don't do that, the
Speaker 1: path of least resistance for me is to stay home,
Speaker 1: is to do another piece of work on a Saturday afternoon.
Speaker 1: And so what we're talking about is this idea of
Speaker 1: beginning to prioritize nurturing, keeping up relationships rather than assuming
Speaker 1: that they'll take care of themselves. Yes, the idea being that,
Speaker 1: you know, I used to think, well, my best friends
Speaker 1: are my best friends and they'll always be that way,
Speaker 1: and my relationship with my partner is going to be
Speaker 1: fine because it's good now, it'll always stay fine. We
Speaker 1: know that's not true that unless we really invest in
Speaker 1: having new experiences, in long relationships, in reaching out and
Speaker 1: devoting some of our time to keeping those relationships alive,
Speaker 1: it's not going to happen on its own. So rather,
Speaker 1: the path of least resistance, unfortunately, can be social isolation
Speaker 1: and more screen time. And so we're talking about social
Speaker 1: fitness as a way to get people to think about it,
Speaker 1: like like going to the gym. You don't. You don't
Speaker 1: go to the gym one day and say good, I'm done.
Speaker 1: I've done that, right. You think, Okay, I'm going to
Speaker 1: do that over and over again. And we would like
Speaker 1: people to think about their relationships. Can talking about interets
Speaker 1: and extrats and that socializolation sense. It's like, I think
Speaker 1: we've also made this very clear as a society that
Speaker 1: we're social animals, we need to be around people, etc.
Speaker 1: And then we meet people who are surrounded by people
Speaker 1: or appear to be very popular, but still feel alone.
Speaker 1: And then you meet people who are single and feel incomplete.
Speaker 1: And then you meet people who are happy in solitude
Speaker 1: and they enjoy spending time with their own Like, we're
Speaker 1: all different, we all need different things. But can introvert
Speaker 1: how to introuts find a sense of healthy social fitness
Speaker 1: and how to extroverts also find a sense of healthy
Speaker 1: social fitness because extraverts often appear very socially fit, but
Speaker 1: if you ask them, they may feel quite depleted. And
Speaker 1: introverts may, like you said, potentially rely on isolation because
Speaker 1: they don't want to step out so how can we
Speaker 1: think about that differently? But it's a it's such an
Speaker 1: important question. I mean, I think what we realize is
Speaker 1: that from our work that everybody, whether you're an introvert
Speaker 1: who who wants just a small number of people in
Speaker 1: your life or an extrovert who loves lots of people,
Speaker 1: that everybody needs a sense that somebody in the world
Speaker 1: is there for them, some emotional safety net. We asked
Speaker 1: our original study participants at one point, who could you
Speaker 1: call in the middle of the night if you were
Speaker 1: sick or scared, And some people couldn't list anyone, and
Speaker 1: some people could list quite a few people. What we
Speaker 1: know is that if you're an introvert, you might just
Speaker 1: need one person in the world like that, but you
Speaker 1: need somebody. And if you're an extrovert, you might have
Speaker 1: more people, but you might only need one person. The
Speaker 1: extrovert who's lonely in a crowd probably doesn't have that person.
Speaker 1: And that's what we're really so I think this comes
Speaker 1: under the professional rubric of security of attachment, that everyone
Speaker 1: needs to feel securely attached, securely connected to at least
Speaker 1: one other person. Kids need it, but we need it
Speaker 1: all the way through lives all the way into old age,
Speaker 1: and so I think if someone can find the way
Speaker 1: to make sure they have and nurture at least one
Speaker 1: of those relationships, the rest is probably much more easy
Speaker 1: to take care of absolutely everyone. I've been talking to
Speaker 1: the one and only Robert Wardinga. The book is called
Speaker 1: The Good Life Lessons from the World's Longest Scientific Study
Speaker 1: of Happiness. I hope you go and grab the bookcase
Speaker 1: you can see. One thing I love about speaking with
Speaker 1: Bob is that he's great into weaving, science and spirituality.
Speaker 1: You know, he has this amazing zen background. But then
Speaker 1: also as a psychiatrist, I love meeting people who are
Speaker 1: at the juxtaposition of two seemingly opposite ideas but actually
Speaker 1: two things that flow beautifully together. Bob, is there anything
Speaker 1: that I haven't asked you that you really want to share,
Speaker 1: or something that's on your heart or mind or in
Speaker 1: your intuition that you'd love to share with everyone. I'd
Speaker 1: love to give you that opportunity. Okay, Well, I'll just
Speaker 1: state something that's obvious but might not be vious all
Speaker 1: the time, which is that in this quest for happiness
Speaker 1: for the good life, it's easy to imagine that it's
Speaker 1: possible to be happy all the time. Nobody on the
Speaker 1: planet is happy all the time. And the reason I
Speaker 1: have to say that is because when we look around us,
Speaker 1: we see you know, advertisements and social media where people
Speaker 1: are smiling and having looked like they've got life all
Speaker 1: figured out. Nobody has life figured out all the time,
Speaker 1: every day. And I just want to name that so
Speaker 1: that you know that life is filled with joys and
Speaker 1: sorrows and ups and downs, and that you are not
Speaker 1: having a bad life if there's a mixture of joy
Speaker 1: and sorrow and boring days and ordinary days in your life.
Speaker 1: I love that reminder. I think that's such a beautiful
Speaker 1: thing for all of us to remember. It's You're so right.
Speaker 1: Our external projection is that someone else has it all together.
Speaker 1: Whoever that maybe none of us too. I love that.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Everyone's been watching back at home,
Speaker 1: or if you're traveling, if you're on the move, you're
Speaker 1: at work, wherever you are listening and watching, Please do
Speaker 1: tag us on Instagram, on Twitter, or on TikTok. Let
Speaker 1: us know what you learned, what you took away. When
Speaker 1: you grab the book. I want you to take pictures
Speaker 1: of the book tag me to let me know what
Speaker 1: line you've read, what moved you, because I would honestly
Speaker 1: say that the questions this conversation made me ask we're
Speaker 1: deeply personal. You could see I was reflecting, like, these
Speaker 1: are the things we need to spend more time on,
Speaker 1: and these are the things that we need to focus
Speaker 1: more deeply on, because these are the things that are
Speaker 1: so simple that we might just miss them right they're
Speaker 1: they're right there in front of us, and so you
Speaker 1: might just ignore them. So thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for watching. A big thank you
Speaker 1: to doctor Robert Wardinger as well, Bob, thank you for
Speaker 1: making the trip Outen and Honor, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Thank you. If you love this episode, you will also
Speaker 1: love my interview with Charles do Hire on how to
Speaker 1: hack your brain, change any habit effortlessly, and the secret
Speaker 1: to making better decisions.