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Speaker 1: When we asked participants in our study, you're eighty years

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Speaker 1: old now, when you look back on your life, what

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Speaker 1: do you regret the most more than anything? Many of

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Speaker 1: them said, I wish I hadn't spent so much time

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Speaker 1: worrying about what other people thought. So then the question is, well,

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Speaker 1: what could we do to change that? And is simply

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Speaker 1: to check in more with myself about what are the

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Speaker 1: things that raise my energy. Hey, everyone, welcome back to

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Speaker 1: On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world.

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Speaker 1: Thanks to each and every one of you that come

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Speaker 1: back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now I

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Speaker 1: know that you're here because you want to improve your happiness,

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Speaker 1: you want to improve your health, and you want to

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Speaker 1: improve your healing. And there are certain guests that I

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Speaker 1: always love having on the show that I have on

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Speaker 1: multiple times, and today's guests this is their second appearance,

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Speaker 1: and I could have been more happy to speak to

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Speaker 1: them because they also have a new book that I

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Speaker 1: have been eagerly waiting for since I met them. I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about the Special Robert Waldinger a professor of psychiatry

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Speaker 1: at Harvard Medical School, director of the Harvard Study of

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Speaker 1: Adult Development, and co founder of the Lifespan Research Foundation.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Waldinger received his AB from Harvard College and his

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Speaker 1: MD from Harvard Medical School. Doctor Waldinger is a practicing

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Speaker 1: psychiatrist and psychoanalyst, and he directs a psychotherapy teaching program

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Speaker 1: for Harvard Psychiatry residents. He's also a zen master and

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Speaker 1: teaches meditation in New England and around the world. And

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Speaker 1: Robert is the co author of the book The Good

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Speaker 1: Life Lessons from the World's Longest Scientific Study of Happiness.

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Speaker 1: This is the book that I want you to go

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Speaker 1: and order, The Good Life Lessons from the World's Longest

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Speaker 1: scientific Study of Happiness. If you've ever heard me talk

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Speaker 1: about the seventy five year Study of Happiness, so if

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Speaker 1: you've ever read that article, it's quoted absolutely everywhere. This

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Speaker 1: is the man who completed that seventy five years study.

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Speaker 1: I believe the fourth of the researchers involved in that program.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't recommend this book more. Doctor Robert Wardinger or

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Speaker 1: Bob and I met in Montana courtesy of Arthur Blank,

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Speaker 1: who brought us all together at his beautiful ranch in

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Speaker 1: Montana introduced us to probably some of the most amazing

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Speaker 1: people in the world. In this space. We instantly connected

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Speaker 1: a because I geek out on research and science, but

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Speaker 1: more importantly because we both have this meditation and mindfulness

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Speaker 1: practice that we both deeply love. And beyond that, we

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Speaker 1: just had a natural flying conversation. So, Bob, thank you

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Speaker 1: for coming back, Thank you for flying in from Boston

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Speaker 1: to New York to do this interview. It's so good

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Speaker 1: to see you again. Well, it's a treat together to

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Speaker 1: see you again. That's the big incentive for me to

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Speaker 1: get on a plane and come here to see you now.

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Speaker 1: But I appreciate it. I want you know, my community

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Speaker 1: appreciates it. I was just saying to you earlier that

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Speaker 1: we made this rule for on purpose again, where we

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Speaker 1: only wanted interviews to be physical, because I miss this,

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Speaker 1: like I miss looking at someone, I miss being able

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Speaker 1: to hug someone, I miss being able to have even

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Speaker 1: the before and afterwards. When you do a zoom interview,

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Speaker 1: you lose the before and afterwards. You're there for the

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Speaker 1: interviewing you, whereas we've been talking for the last half

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Speaker 1: an hour already. And so I wanted to hear from

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Speaker 1: you because you said something interesting to me. You said,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure someone studying it. You're not studying

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Speaker 1: it yet. Let's think about that a little bit. What

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Speaker 1: do you think has gained or what can be done

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Speaker 1: meaningfully through zoom or virtually? But then what is lost

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Speaker 1: in your opinion and your thoughts and from your intuition

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Speaker 1: on that. Yeah, well, some of the most important things

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Speaker 1: are about accessibility. Like what we're finding is that people

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Speaker 1: who can't be together physically obviously can be together online.

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Speaker 1: Or people who are frightened. So you know, I'm a psychiatrist,

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Speaker 1: and many people are really scared to talk to someone

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Speaker 1: about their problems. Well, what if you could be in

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Speaker 1: your own home and you could just dip atoe in

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Speaker 1: the water by trying a video chat with someone who's

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Speaker 1: a professional. And I've seen people do that with huge benefit.

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Speaker 1: So in that sense, the accessibility is wonderful. People in

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Speaker 1: remote areas and all of that. What's lost, I think

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Speaker 1: are just what you've been describing this the casual interactions

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Speaker 1: that we have and that we love, that we take

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Speaker 1: for granted. I mean, it's a reason why you know,

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Speaker 1: people talk about the water cooler at the workplace or

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Speaker 1: the coffee machine. It's where people run into each other

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Speaker 1: and they have these little conversations that might turn out

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Speaker 1: to be hugely important, might turn out to spread ideas

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Speaker 1: or give people a glimpse of a person they find

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Speaker 1: interesting who they've never met before. And so those are

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Speaker 1: the things I'm afraid that we're losing. Yeah, remotely. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that's a brilliant answer. And I I love

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Speaker 1: the perspective that there's actually a positive and a challenge

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Speaker 1: to every situation in life. And if we lean into

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Speaker 1: the positives, it can be more meaningful, it can be

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Speaker 1: more powerful, and instead of obsessing on the negatives. But

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Speaker 1: let's talk about the seventy five year study. For anyone

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Speaker 1: who doesn't know about this study, could you just give

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Speaker 1: us a quick synthesis or synopsis of what you were

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Speaker 1: looking at, the types of things that you're assessing, the

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Speaker 1: types of behaviors, and then of course the more scientific

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Speaker 1: result that you gained from doing that study. So what's

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Speaker 1: wonderful for me about this study is that it has

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Speaker 1: followed the same people for their entire adult lives. That's

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Speaker 1: completely unheard of in the history of science. It just

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Speaker 1: doesn't happen. So we started with people who were teenagers

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Speaker 1: and followed them for now we're about to enter our

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Speaker 1: eighty fifth year. We've followed people for eighty five years.

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Speaker 1: Most of the original people have passed away, as you

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Speaker 1: can imagine, but we've started studying their children, who are

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Speaker 1: all baby boomers. And what's unique about it is to

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Speaker 1: be able to see how lives really unfold, not how

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Speaker 1: we remember them, because if you think about it, when

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Speaker 1: we try to remember what happened to us, there's there

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Speaker 1: are big holes in our memories right very well, and

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Speaker 1: we get creative about you know, I'll make up stuff

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Speaker 1: and then like my wife will correct me and say no,

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Speaker 1: it didn't happen that way, and she's always right, yeah.

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Speaker 1: And so I think to be able to follow lives

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Speaker 1: forward and not know what the outcome is going to

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Speaker 1: be is just amazing. So so that's the big picture.

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Speaker 1: We started. It started in nineteen thirty eight with two

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Speaker 1: studies that didn't even know about each other. A group

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Speaker 1: of Harvard College undergraduate students who were chosen by their

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Speaker 1: deans as fine, upstanding young men, and in a study

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Speaker 1: of how people were going to develop from adolescence to

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Speaker 1: young adulthood. They thought maybe the study would go for

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Speaker 1: ten years. They never dreamed I'd be talking to you today.

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Speaker 1: About the studies still going eighty five years later. The

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Speaker 1: other was a study of boys from Boston's poorest and

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Speaker 1: most troubled families in the nineteen thirties because a group

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Speaker 1: of researchers were interested in why some children from really

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Speaker 1: difficult backgrounds stayed out of trouble, how did they stay

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Speaker 1: on healthy developmental paths, And so we studied a group

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Speaker 1: of young men who hadn't gotten into trouble even though

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Speaker 1: their families were plagued by poverty and illness and crime

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Speaker 1: and all kinds of difficulty. So those two we've studied together,

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Speaker 1: two ends of the spectrum, and now fortunately we've added women.

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Speaker 1: We started out with all white males because that's what

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Speaker 1: the city of Boston had in nineteen thirty eight for

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Speaker 1: research to study. And fortunately more than half women, more

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Speaker 1: people from different backgrounds, lots of immigrants. So we're very

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Speaker 1: excited about this kind of diverse sample that we've grown into.

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Speaker 1: Tell us a bit about the findings over the seventy

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Speaker 1: five years now obviously eighty five, but tell us a

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Speaker 1: bit about that core finding, because I think the most

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Speaker 1: common finding that stated is that in this Harvid seventy

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Speaker 1: five years study that when you look at the indicators

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Speaker 1: of human happiness, the quality of our relationships was seen

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Speaker 1: as the number one indicator. Was there a number two,

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Speaker 1: was there a number three, or was it just so

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Speaker 1: far out? Like, tell us a bit about the findings

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Speaker 1: and then we'll dive into the number one finding. Right. Well,

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Speaker 1: the biggest findings were about relationships, but also about taking

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Speaker 1: care of our health, taking care of our bodies. One

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Speaker 1: of our study members said, take care of your body

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Speaker 1: as though you're gonna need it for a hundred years.

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Speaker 1: And so what we do find, and many other studies find,

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Speaker 1: is that getting regular exercise, eating well, getting decent sleep,

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Speaker 1: getting regular medical care, if you can all of those things,

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Speaker 1: not smoking, not using alcohol or drugs, not abusing at least,

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Speaker 1: that all of those turn out to have huge effects

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Speaker 1: on how long we live, how healthy we stay. But

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Speaker 1: the surprising thing was what you named, which is this

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Speaker 1: finding that the people who stayed healthiest and lived longest

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Speaker 1: had the best and the warmest connections with other human beings.

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Speaker 1: When we started seeing that in our data, we didn't

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Speaker 1: believe it because we thought, well, how you know, okay,

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Speaker 1: I mean, if I have nice relationships, it'll keep me happy.

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Speaker 1: Or sure, but how could it actually keep me from

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Speaker 1: getting arthritis or type two diabetes or how could that be?

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Speaker 1: And so we and other researchers have found over and

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Speaker 1: over again that this is the case, and that it

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Speaker 1: seems to have something to do with stress, and that

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Speaker 1: relationships help us manage stress and help us manage powerful

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Speaker 1: negative feelings. One of the things we all know is

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Speaker 1: that all of us have stress every day, right, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes really bad things happen during the day. We come

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Speaker 1: home and we're upset. What we find is that if

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Speaker 1: you have someone who you can talk to at home,

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Speaker 1: or someone you can call up who's a good listener,

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Speaker 1: who's a sympathetic listener, you can literally feel your body

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Speaker 1: calm down. And what that means is you can literally

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Speaker 1: feel your body physiology and chemistry come back to normal.

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Speaker 1: And that's the main thing that we think relationships do

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Speaker 1: for us. Understood, So you are actually saying that not

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Speaker 1: only do positive relationships help us monitor stress and maybe

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Speaker 1: regulate stress, but challenging relationships can actually cause health issues too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they apposite, is also true, very conflicting conflictual relationships. So

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Speaker 1: challenging can be good, right, And that actually doesn't break

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Speaker 1: down our health. But relationships where there's abuse, relationship where

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Speaker 1: there's constant unhappy arguing, and relationships where difficulties never get resolved.

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Speaker 1: Those take a toll because they keep us in what

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Speaker 1: we call fight or flight response. You know, the fight

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Speaker 1: or flight responses, our natural response where if you get scared,

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Speaker 1: your body prepares to run away or to fight or

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Speaker 1: meet with a challenge that's meant to be temporary. We're

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Speaker 1: meant to come back to baseline, to equanimity. If we

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Speaker 1: can't do that, then we're in trouble. There's one thing

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Speaker 1: I love about this book is that it's practical, it's scientific,

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Speaker 1: it's thoughtful, It helps us come back to our essence.

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Speaker 1: It's also simple in the sense that it kind of

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Speaker 1: kindly nudges us and reminds us to go back to

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Speaker 1: what we already know, but that we keep neglecting. And

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Speaker 1: there's this one study that you quote in the book.

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Speaker 1: Can you say In a two thousand survey, millennials were

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Speaker 1: asked about their most important life goals. Seventy six percent

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Speaker 1: said that becoming rich was their number one goal. Fifty

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Speaker 1: percent said a major goal was to become famous. Now

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Speaker 1: that's in two thousand and seven, and I think if

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Speaker 1: that study was done now, those things would still hold

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Speaker 1: true to a great degree. And then you say, more

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Speaker 1: than a decade later, after millennials spent more time as adults,

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Speaker 1: similar questions were asked again in a pair of surveys.

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Speaker 1: Fame was now lower on the list, but the top

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Speaker 1: goals included things like making money, having a successful career,

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Speaker 1: and becoming debt free. How do we when we talk

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Speaker 1: about the good life, which is such a elusive topic

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Speaker 1: for so long? You know, I feel like we've been

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Speaker 1: studying the good life through culture, through spirituality, through philosophy

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Speaker 1: for thousands of years, but the amount of advancement we've

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Speaker 1: made in that pursuit is very literal compared to going

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Speaker 1: to the moon or going to space, or even healthcare

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Speaker 1: for that matter, or I think even healthcare from a

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Speaker 1: physical health perspective has had so much acceleration, but our

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Speaker 1: understanding of the mind and the heart still seems to

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Speaker 1: be fairly limited. And when you see those goals, you see, Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's what people are aspiring for, is someone who's living

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Speaker 1: the good life aspiring for because I think we often

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Speaker 1: think of a good life is these habits but what

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Speaker 1: is a good aspiration If the aspiration is not money,

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Speaker 1: not fame, not a successful career, well, the aspiration can

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Speaker 1: be different for different people. So they've done research on

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Speaker 1: this and they have these different types of well being.

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Speaker 1: There's one called hedonic wellbeing, which is what we all

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Speaker 1: think of as as just enjoying a good party, a

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Speaker 1: good meal, having a good conversation. I'm really enjoying this

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Speaker 1: conversation right now, I'm having hedonic wellbeing. Right. But other people,

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Speaker 1: well all of us to some extent, want also a

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Speaker 1: sense of purpose and a sense of meaning. It's called

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Speaker 1: you demonic well being. The best example is you have

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Speaker 1: a small child who you read to at night before bed,

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Speaker 1: and you're reading the book good Night, and your child

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Speaker 1: wants you to read that book for the eighth time

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Speaker 1: and you are exhausted. Right, is it fun? No? But

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Speaker 1: is it the most meaningful thing you could imagine doing? Absolutely?

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Speaker 1: And so this sense of I'm doing this because I

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Speaker 1: love it, because I'm on purpose, because I care deeply

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Speaker 1: about what I'm doing, that's a different kind of well being.

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Speaker 1: And then there's a third kind that they've begun to identify,

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Speaker 1: which is a psychologically rich life so many of us

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Speaker 1: value just having interesting experiences, going to new places, doing

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Speaker 1: things we've never done before. So those three things, having

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Speaker 1: a good time now, feeling like I'm doing meaningful activity,

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Speaker 1: and feeling like I'm having interesting experiences, those are all

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Speaker 1: flavors of happiness. And I think that each of us

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Speaker 1: is a mix of all three, but some of us

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Speaker 1: really want one more than the others. Is it meant

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Speaker 1: to be balanced, or is it that is there a

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Speaker 1: hierarchy of needs there? Or what have we learned about

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Speaker 1: those two areas well? There's officially there's no there's no

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Speaker 1: right or wrong way. But what we know, and I

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Speaker 1: think we know this from spiritual traditions more than my science,

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Speaker 1: that when we do invest in things outside of the self,

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Speaker 1: we are happier, and we're happier for longer, and we

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Speaker 1: feel more of a sense that life is worth living.

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Speaker 1: So I would say that we need to be sure

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Speaker 1: we have some of that so we don't end up

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Speaker 1: looking back and saying, gosh, I wasted my life. I

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Speaker 1: feel like one of the most difficult things for a

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Speaker 1: lot of people today is self awareness, in being aware

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Speaker 1: of what we think is good for us, what we

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Speaker 1: think is right for us. I even had a friend

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Speaker 1: to say to me yesterday. They say to me, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think I'm actually going to say no to that

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Speaker 1: opportunity now because I realized I was only going to

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Speaker 1: say yes because of what people thought. And so you

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Speaker 1: see that a lot where so many of our choices

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Speaker 1: and our decisions are based on what other people think

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Speaker 1: is good for us, or what other people think is

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Speaker 1: right for us. I remember growing up and only wanting

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Speaker 1: to aspire for things that other people rewarded. So if

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Speaker 1: the most celebrated and respected person in my community growing

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Speaker 1: up was an actuary for a career, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: be an actuary at ten years old. But if you

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Speaker 1: asked me what an actuery did, I had zero idea.

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Speaker 1: And I think that this idea perpetuates. So what can

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Speaker 1: we do to get closer to knowing what is good

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Speaker 1: for us so that we can truly live a good life? Yes, well,

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Speaker 1: and I just want to I just want to emphasize

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Speaker 1: what you said, because when we asked our original participants

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Speaker 1: in our study, hundreds of them, we said, when you

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Speaker 1: know you're eighty years old, now, when you look back

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Speaker 1: on your life, what do you regret the most? More

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Speaker 1: than anything. Many of them said, I wish I hadn't

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Speaker 1: spent so much time worrying about what other people thought,

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Speaker 1: And that's just what you're naming. So then the question is, well,

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Speaker 1: what could we do to change that? And I think

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Speaker 1: what I've learned more and more in my own life

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Speaker 1: is simply to check in more with myself about what

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Speaker 1: are the things that raise my energy when I engage

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Speaker 1: in them, and what are the things that lower my energy.

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Speaker 1: So maybe like doing actuarial work might lower your image, right, So,

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Speaker 1: and some people actually embark on courses of study and

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Speaker 1: then realize, how did I get here? I don't like this?

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Speaker 1: And so I think one of the things we can

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Speaker 1: do every day is simply to pay attention to that

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Speaker 1: internal sense of being enlivened or being depleted by activities

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Speaker 1: that we're doing during our day, and really pay attention

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Speaker 1: to that, and when you can turn toward the activities

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Speaker 1: that are enlivening. Yeah, I often say to people it's

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Speaker 1: like reflecting after you go to a restaurant. So what

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Speaker 1: do you do when you leave a restaurant? You talk

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Speaker 1: about the food, you talk about the ambiance, you talk

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Speaker 1: about the service, and you're like, oh, I really like

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Speaker 1: that dish, but I didn't love that one and all

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Speaker 1: the way to us so wonderful. He was so helpful,

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Speaker 1: and I really like the design and the aesthetic of

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Speaker 1: that space. Right, So you talk about it when you

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Speaker 1: order in, you do the same thing. When you go

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Speaker 1: to watch a movie or a TV show, we do

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Speaker 1: the same thing. We go, oh, yeah, that actor's performance

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Speaker 1: was amazing, or that actress was incredible, or that scene

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Speaker 1: you know that was brilliant. Like we analyze things, but

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Speaker 1: I find that we don't analyze our lives in the

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Speaker 1: same way. Like when you go to a sports game,

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Speaker 1: you could spend the whole day talking about it. Or

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Speaker 1: if something happens to another couple in the media, or

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Speaker 1: if something happens to a famous person in the media,

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Speaker 1: we will analyze it for days and weeks and months.

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Speaker 1: But when it comes to our own lives, we rarely

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Speaker 1: paid that attention as a psychiatrist, And why is that?

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Speaker 1: Why is it that we can obsess over these external

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Speaker 1: big or minute like we either obsess over these tiny

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Speaker 1: experiences of food and movies and entertainment, or we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about other people's problems for hours and hours and hours

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Speaker 1: but when it comes to our own we've really struggled

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Speaker 1: to say, you know, the argument we had last week, like,

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Speaker 1: let's just reflect on that for a second, right, right,

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe it takes us back to the actuary problem,

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Speaker 1: which is which is that we are We are so

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Speaker 1: trained from the time we're small to respond to rewards,

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Speaker 1: to respond when people say, you know, good girl, a

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Speaker 1: good boy, that was a good thing you did, right,

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Speaker 1: and so so we are trained to respond when people

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Speaker 1: praise us, we're trained to respond when people correct us,

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Speaker 1: and we're not trained to look inward. You know, you

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Speaker 1: have a deep meditative practice. You have done a considerable

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Speaker 1: amount of training to look inward to notice what arises

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Speaker 1: in the moment. I've spent a lot of my life

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Speaker 1: on a meditation cushion as well, doing that. It's a

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Speaker 1: radical practice. But you don't have to meditate to do this, right.

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Speaker 1: We know, you can be walking along the street, you

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Speaker 1: can be looking at a beautiful tree and just start

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Speaker 1: checking in with where you are and what's coming up

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Speaker 1: for you. But we have to learn to do it.

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Speaker 1: And that's the thing that I think we don't learn

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Speaker 1: enough as we're as we're growing up. This is exclusively

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Speaker 1: for my LA listeners. Something Joyful is coming to air

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Speaker 1: one stores soon. I'm so excited for this, so make

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Speaker 1: sure to catch this announcement on the next episode of

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Speaker 1: What are some of the things that we should reward

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Speaker 1: or not should but what are some healthier things to

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Speaker 1: reward in one another to create a healthier relationship. If

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Speaker 1: we're trying to create these positive relationships in our life.

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Speaker 1: What would be the things that we should encourage and

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Speaker 1: reward and respect. I think we should reward people taking

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Speaker 1: risks with us. You know, if someone says to me,

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Speaker 1: I was upset when you said that, my first reaction

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Speaker 1: is to get defensive and say, well not, you know,

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Speaker 1: to excuse myself. But I've learned that sometimes what really

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Speaker 1: helps is to say thank you for being willing to

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Speaker 1: tell me that. Right, So, if someone will take a

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Speaker 1: risk with me, I begin to say, oh, that's a gift.

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Speaker 1: And when they do too, and when they take risks,

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Speaker 1: and when I take risks, our relationships deeper, you know,

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Speaker 1: because if we trust each other and we realize we

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Speaker 1: can trust each other, that you're not going to come

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Speaker 1: back and criticize me. You're going to be curious and

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Speaker 1: welcoming when I tell you about something difficult. So I

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Speaker 1: would say, let's reward each other for take going out

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Speaker 1: on a limb, for taking risks with us. Let's reward

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Speaker 1: each other for trying new things instead of just doing

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Speaker 1: the same old I mean, most of the time when

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Speaker 1: someone in our world tries something new, we're like shocked,

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Speaker 1: like that's not what I expect from you, and so

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Speaker 1: it takes a minute to re orient and say, oh,

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Speaker 1: that person is trying something different, that person is taking

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Speaker 1: a risk, is challenging themselves. And so I would say,

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Speaker 1: let's let's applaud that when we can. I mean, unless

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Speaker 1: they're doing something, but you know, yeah, let's applaud the

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Speaker 1: thing that where people are trying to grow. Yeah, some

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Speaker 1: of the things that other people do that trigger us,

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Speaker 1: I feel as so much because we are not allowing

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Speaker 1: ourselves to do those things. Like I had a friend

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Speaker 1: recently who's moving country and he was telling his friends

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Speaker 1: out some of our friends that he's moving country, and

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Speaker 1: everyone just had negative things to say, like why would

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Speaker 1: you move now, Like kids are too old, they're already

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Speaker 1: in school, Like it's a tough time for them, Like

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Speaker 1: it's going to go wrong, or you're going to come

431
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: running back. And we were talking about this, and it's

432
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 1: exactly what you're saying that instead of rewarding that he's

433
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 1: trying to do something finally, after all these years that's

434
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: true to himself, he's receiving a lot of this backlash

435
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 1: from around him, and it discourages him. It also, I

436
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: think what people don't realize is that it not only

437
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 1: discourages the person, it distances you from them because now

438
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: you've not been a part of something that's significant to

439
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: them in life. I remember, you know, when I've moved

440
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 1: to country, I've moved state, and every time I've done that,

441
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 1: when people have not been able to be a part

442
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: of that decision with me, it makes me feel less

443
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 1: understood by them, if that's accurate. And I think this

444
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: feeling of being understood is what you were speaking about earlier,

445
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: that we're all craving someone that you can pick up

446
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: the phone too and have that meaningful connection with. How

447
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: do we help people understand us better and how do

448
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 1: we learn to understand other people better? Because if understanding,

449
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: I mean when I look at relationships, I've realized that

450
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: I think Jamie McGuire says that she says love is

451
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: an overused word, and I've often added to that that

452
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: I think love is an underdefined word. And as I've

453
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: been on my journey to really unpack what is love

454
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: between people, I often come to words like it's not

455
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: even gratitude or care. It really comes down to things

456
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:13,719
Speaker 1: like safety and understanding. When I think about love, I'm like, yes,

457
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: safety and understand if someone feels safe around someone, that's

458
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: a sense of love, and I mean emotionally safe, physically safe,

459
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: mentally safe. And then if I feel understood by someone

460
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 1: where I don't have to explain, like you didn't really

461
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 1: have to explain to me that you were talking about

462
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 1: what kind of thing someone would be doing as a risk,

463
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 1: because I understand you, and I think there's safety in

464
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: the understanding. So how can we understand people better? And

465
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: how do we help people understand us better. One of

466
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: my meditation teachers gave me an instruction just to try

467
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: as I meditated, and he said, especially when you're sitting

468
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: there and you've done this meditation a thousand times, or

469
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: you're washing the dishes, you know, for the three thousandth time,

470
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: right where you're doing something ordinary, he said, ask yourself

471
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: the question what's here now that I have never noticed before?

472
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: And what I find with relationships, particularly the relationships with

473
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: people we think we know so well, right our partners

474
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: or the old friend or my boss, is to ask

475
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: that question, what's here that I've never noticed before? And

476
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: then to share it. You know, I never realized, um

477
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: that you enjoy this, or you know, I love those

478
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: sneakers and I I, you must have taken some care

479
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: to make them, you know anything. Yeah, yeah, they're very cool,

480
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: but just to notice, right. And so what I think,

481
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: what I'm what I'm getting to is curiosity to let

482
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: ourselves be genuinely curious about people, including the people we

483
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: think we know so well. They've actually done a study

484
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: of this where they looked at how tuned in we

485
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: are to each other when we first start dating someone

486
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: and then after we've been together as a couple for

487
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: four or five years. And what they find is that

488
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: when we first start dating, we are much more tuned

489
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: in to each other than we are when we've been

490
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: together for some years because we think we know right,

491
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: whereas when we're dating, we're like, oh, what's this going

492
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: to be like? And is this person into me? And

493
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: you know, and so we when we make a new friend,

494
00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: and so I think, really the question is couldn't we

495
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: muster that interest and that curiosity even when we've been

496
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: together a while we know this person. That is such

497
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: a great examples. That's a brilliant study. I'd love to

498
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: take more of a look at that, because I think

499
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: that's such a great example of exactly how that diminishing

500
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: curiosity creates diminishing results in a relationship. And I call

501
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: that concept in my reflection of it, new old and

502
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: old new. So when I meet someone new, I try

503
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: to find out something old about them that because we

504
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: might have that in common. Maybe it's a city we

505
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: lived in, maybe it's a country that we both love.

506
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: Maybe it's a cuisine, and it's something that's in built

507
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: to us. And then when I have known someone for

508
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: a long time and I consider them an old friend,

509
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: let me look for something new in them, as you're saying.

510
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: And so I call it new old, old new, And

511
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: it's always been my way of thinking about it, because

512
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 1: you're so right. There is always something new you can

513
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: learn about anyone, even if you deeply think you know them.

514
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 1: And I think that with my wife today. We've been

515
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: married for six years and together for ten, so it's

516
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: a long enough time of our entire life, and I

517
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: feel like I learned new things about her every day.

518
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: And I think what's as important as learning new things

519
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 1: about my wife every day is unlearning misconceptions I've had

520
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: about her from ten years ago. So there are things

521
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: that I was so sure about who my wife was

522
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: a few years ago. And at the same time, as

523
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: I have to learn the new things, I have to say, well, wait,

524
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: I have to unpack that old idea I had about her.

525
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: That's not why she thinks that way or lives that way.

526
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: This is the reason currently that she lives that way.

527
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: I think we find a lot of it's challenging to

528
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: feel that people are changing. Yes, it's challenging to feel

529
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: that we are changing, and it's challenging to feel that

530
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: people that we love are changing. How do we think

531
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: about allowing ourselves to change and people to change, because

532
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: that seems to be the hardest thing in marriage, in friendship,

533
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: Like I have friends will say to me, like, Jay,

534
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 1: you've changed now. I don't think that. I think i've

535
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: I think in my core values and how I construct

536
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: my life, I think I'm actually pretty similar. I don't

537
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: think I've changed that much. My external life has changed

538
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: for sure, obviously since living is a monk and then

539
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: after and then how I live now. But I think

540
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: I live with the same purpose and the same intention.

541
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: But how do we allow people to change and allow

542
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: ourselves to change? You know, that is actually the core

543
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: of my spiritual practice. So as you know, if you

544
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: don't mind that, yeah, No, I want you to go

545
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: wherever you want to go. Yeah. The core of Buddhism

546
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: is this the truth that everything is always in the

547
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: process of changing, right, and that some things we can't

548
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: see the rate of change because it's so slow, and

549
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: some things are changing in an obvious way. But what

550
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: Buddhism teaches me is that one of the great sources

551
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: of suffering in my life is when I try to

552
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: hold onto things that are changed, when I try to

553
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: fix them, when I try to freeze them. And what

554
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: you're describing, you know, with your wife, when you're just

555
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: what we're describing with a friend of I'm trying. I'm

556
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: trying to keep you in the same category I had

557
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: you in ten years ago. Right, So important to really

558
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 1: let yourself notice what is what's evolving, what's different and

559
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 1: same with ourselves, and that yes, maybe our core values

560
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,280
Speaker 1: stay the same, but even that we express them differently.

561
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: I mean, we talked with some of our study participants

562
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: when they were in their thirties about how they were expressing, say,

563
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 1: a desire to take care of their family, and of

564
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: course what they did in their thirties to take care

565
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: of their families was very different from what they did

566
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: in their eighties, and so the values stay the same,

567
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:45,240
Speaker 1: but the behavior, the expression can change. And so all

568
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 1: of these things are just can be sources of endless

569
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 1: interest and curiosity. Yeah, and I think it comes with

570
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: that expectation, right, that when you meet someone, you'll hope,

571
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: subconsciously is that they're going to stay this way forever. Yes.

572
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: It's almost like when you meet a two year old

573
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: and they're just adorable and you're like, hope, this child

574
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 1: just stays this way forever because you find them, you know,

575
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: cute and fun and playful or whatever it may be.

576
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: And it's the same with our partners. When you meet

577
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,240
Speaker 1: your partner, you're like, God, they're perfect the way they are, right,

578
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 1: And that idea that someone is perfect right now is

579
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: often the issue with progress because they are going to change.

580
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: You're also going to realize how imperfect you both are.

581
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 1: And and I think letting go of that expectation is

582
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: what's so difficult. It's almost like when you when you

583
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: buy a phone or you buy a physical item. It

584
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 1: may be perfect, but you know it's going to get knocked,

585
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: it's gonna get dropped, it's gonna you know, it's gonna

586
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 1: need an upgrade. It's so we accept that to some degree.

587
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: But with people which are these dynamic, vibrant, energetic beings,

588
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 1: we almost like no, no, no, be technology, Like you know,

589
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a weird mindset, and I wonder how

590
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 1: we can really learn to let go of that, Like

591
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 1: it's a constant I think it's a constant process, right,

592
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 1: because our minds do want to hold on to expectation,

593
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 1: certain expectations, certain images. We would go crazy if everything

594
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: we're always up for grabs, right, Like, at least I

595
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: knew roughly who I was going to find when I

596
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: came to see you today, thank goodness. But the other

597
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: side of that is just what you're saying that we

598
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 1: need to keep looking and see, well, you know, I

599
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: haven't seen you in three years, and how are we

600
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: each different now? And that's a hard thing to keep doing.

601
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 1: But just to remember, I think, as you're pointing out,

602
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: that we want things to stay the same, and so

603
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: it's going to take some effort to pay attention to

604
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: the changes that are happening all the time. Yeah, I

605
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 1: think one of the biggest relationships speaking about the good

606
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: life and talking about relationships. I think, as we know

607
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: through resets who studies, so much of our expectations as

608
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: we were talking about, our beliefs about love about relationships

609
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 1: come from our family. And often I find today that

610
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: the amount of people that say to me that their

611
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 1: family is toxic or they experience a really negative energy

612
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: from their family, Like I hear that over and over

613
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: and over again, and I'm sure as I'm sure you

614
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: hear it more and more and more. And I find

615
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: like families that were meant to be people's places of

616
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: refuge of sacredness, often people don't feel that way. Now,

617
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it's all the families fault either.

618
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: I think there's responsibility on both sides, and it's a

619
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: complex matter. But how does someone navigate? What should someone

620
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: be thinking about if they have family members or a

621
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: family member that causes them a great deal of stress,

622
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 1: pressure and insecurity? Like how does someone what does some

623
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 1: what't you? Someone me thinking about? What? Could someone ask?

624
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 1: How how did they reflect on that? Perhaps first to

625
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 1: reflect on the positive? Someone once told me, you know,

626
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: no one will ever care about you as much as

627
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: your family will care about your well being. And I

628
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: know there are exceptions to that, but basically, these are

629
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: the people who are your people, and so if if

630
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: there are ways to preserve those ties, it is worth it.

631
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's not. Sometimes people need to walk away from

632
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: their families of origin. I totally get that, but but

633
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: to at least be sure that what's there to be

634
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: invested in has been appreciated. Right. But then, often what

635
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: gets families into trouble is just what we're talking about,

636
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: which is the problem of allowing each other to grow

637
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: and change. I mean, I have a son who's in

638
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: his thirties and who gets angry at me when I

639
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: ask him, well, you know, do you need a warmer

640
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: coat when you go out today? We're and he says, Dad,

641
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 1: I'm in my thirties. Why do I you know? And

642
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: I stop and I said, oh, you know, if you

643
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: hadn't been so dependent on me when you were two

644
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 1: years old, if you hadn't trained me to worry about

645
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: these things, we'd be fine. He's saying to me, Dad,

646
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: recognize that I'm grown up, right, And often the difficulties

647
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: we have in families are the difficulties of people not

648
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 1: allowing each other to grow and change into who they

649
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: are at this moment. I mean, what if your family

650
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 1: had said you have to be an actuary and if not,

651
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 1: you are a failure. So so I think so, I

652
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: think what you're saying is is right that that, yes,

653
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: many families are filled with this kind of strife, and

654
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: often it comes from this difficulty recognizing that we are

655
00:39:55,200 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 1: all changing and then allowing each other to change and grow.

656
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 1: I find that a lot of generations today are obviously

657
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 1: more open to therapy, more open to these types of reflection.

658
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 1: I find that when I speak to some people that

659
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,399
Speaker 1: I know that they may find that certain older generations

660
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: are like, well, what's the need for therapy or what's

661
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: the need for that? Like, you know, everything's okay, Like

662
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 1: we can figure this out. It's a family matter. Again,

663
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: there's truth on both sides in different ways, right, But

664
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: I guess I think one of the biggest challenges is

665
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,959
Speaker 1: that a lot of people it's like when you're young,

666
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: you always feel the adults don't get it, and when

667
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: you're an adult, you feel like the kids don't get it, right,

668
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: Like that's like and everyone and the funny thing is

669
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,919
Speaker 1: we all experience it. It's like there's that famous quote,

670
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,439
Speaker 1: I don't know who said it, but it's the day

671
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: you realize your parents were right. Your kids will be

672
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: telling you that you're wrong, Like, I don't know how, Yeah,

673
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 1: it's brilliant. Yeah it's so good. And I don't know

674
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: who said it, but I always think about that. I'm like, oh,

675
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: I was so interesting. When I was young. I used

676
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: to think this of I'm thirty five years old, and

677
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that's what I used to think

678
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 1: of thirty five year olds or someone with that opinion.

679
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,919
Speaker 1: Now that I'm thirty five, I'm like, oh, I think

680
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: this differently. How do we It's like I'm asking questions

681
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 1: here that I know there aren't any conclusive answers to,

682
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: but I think they are important questions to ask. It's like,

683
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: how do we live a life where we realized that

684
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: from a different vantage point you're going to have different

685
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 1: beliefs and almost opening yourself up and not stereotyping an

686
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: eighteen year old or stereotyping in twenty one year old,

687
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 1: or stereotyping a sixty year old or a seventy or old,

688
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,439
Speaker 1: like I think we have stereotypes about like, oh, well

689
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm like, well, wait a minute. When

690
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: I was they said, you did the same thing, and

691
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,399
Speaker 1: we you know that kind of thing, like when I moved.

692
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: It's like what you just said about the your son

693
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 1: and the coat. It's like when I moved. I moved

694
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: country when I was twenty eight. So I moved from

695
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: the UK to the US when I was twenty eight

696
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 1: years and my mom was so scared for me. I

697
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 1: was like, Mom, you moved to London when you were sixteen,

698
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: Like you left. She left like a country where there

699
00:41:55,280 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 1: was a war in Yemen between the Yemen and the British,

700
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: and then she left and moved to England during that time.

701
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,839
Speaker 1: And I'm like, you left a war torn country. It's

702
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 1: sixteen years old. I left to follow my purpose and

703
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 1: passion like at twenty eight, like you did something way harder,

704
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: but you're so scared for me. And I know that

705
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 1: that's love, of course, I know that that's love. But

706
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 1: it's interesting how it's like you took the biggest risk

707
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 1: and you kind of don't even want me to take

708
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 1: this one, right, because it's hard to imagine to reimagine

709
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 1: ourselves at an earlier age in a way that was

710
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: quite capable, as she must have been as a sixteen

711
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: year old and I'm sure it was incredibly hard and

712
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: she managed. Wow. These So we in our Lifespan Research Foundation,

713
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 1: we developed this program that you were actually part of

714
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 1: helping us imagine, Oh, I love this. In Montana, it

715
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: was we call it Roadmaps for Life Transitions, where we

716
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 1: have five sessions where where we bring some of these

717
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,839
Speaker 1: insights from our research into small group sessions that people

718
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: can really learn from and use. And the first session

719
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: we ask people to bring a photograph of themselves when

720
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,760
Speaker 1: they were half as old as they are now. And

721
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: then they go into small groups and they show each

722
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 1: other their photograph and that the assignment is to tell

723
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: each other, Okay, what did life look like to you

724
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 1: when you were the person in this photograph and how

725
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:30,399
Speaker 1: has life changed? How has your view of life changed now?

726
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 1: And it really underscores that difference between well, this is

727
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 1: what it was like when I was sixteen and leaving Yemen,

728
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 1: and this is what it's like for me now, And

729
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: then she gets to think, oh, my twenty eight year

730
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: old son, oh, I may have more of a sense

731
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 1: now of what life is like for him. But it's

732
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 1: a kind of active reimagining of life at a different

733
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,879
Speaker 1: from a different vantage point from a different time. I

734
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,240
Speaker 1: love that example, remember that exact conversation we had because

735
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: I talked about how all my work is dedicated to

736
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: helping people make life transitions, because I think that's where

737
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: all the pressure this stress, like when you're just getting married,

738
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 1: or you're just getting divorced, when you're starting a new job,

739
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 1: or leaving an old woman, when you're moving country or

740
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 1: moving home, like that's well, can you share more about

741
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 1: that program and some of the insights in the book

742
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: that what are other ways that people can reflect on

743
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: life transitions in a healthy way. So we do a

744
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: session where we ask people to clarify their values, you know,

745
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,760
Speaker 1: as you ask people to think about all the time,

746
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 1: and we ask, well, what are the two or three

747
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 1: values that you couldn't imagine living your life without. And

748
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: then we say map out a typical week in your

749
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: life and write down where you can express these values.

750
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: And some people are really shocked that they're not able

751
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: to bring their values into much of their daily life.

752
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: We do another session where we ask people to map

753
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: their relationship universe and say, well, who are you close to,

754
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: who would you like to be closer to, Who have

755
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: you had troubles with but you'd like to mend a relationship.

756
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 1: We do another one where we say, actually it's the

757
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: leaving Yemen. It's the We ask what are some of

758
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 1: the biggest challenges, the biggest transitions you've had to make

759
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: in your life so far, and what were the strengths

760
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 1: that you were able to bring to managing those transitions.

761
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: And then we ask you, what do you see coming

762
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: down the road, and how can you use those strengths

763
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 1: that you already have to anticipate meeting this next challenge

764
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 1: that's coming along for you. I love that question because

765
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: I think I do that subconsciously all the time. Whenever

766
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 1: I'm going through a new challenge, I automatically reflect on

767
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: an old one. Yeah, I think to myself, how did

768
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: I get through that? When I got through that, Like

769
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: I was telling you about everything I went through surgery,

770
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: just think about was the last mine and through surgery,

771
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, when I was six, I dislocated

772
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: my wrist. I mean I can barely remember it. All

773
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: I remember is I was in the park. I was

774
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 1: swinging on the monkey bars or whatever they're called. I

775
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 1: fell on the last one because I was going too

776
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:17,959
Speaker 1: fast and I fell on my wrist and I just lookate.

777
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: I was in agony. Parents had to rush me the hospital.

778
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 1: I had a cast on my arm for like three

779
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:24,800
Speaker 1: to six months. Everyone was writing on it in school.

780
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: But I got through that when I was six, and

781
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 1: I was like, well, maybe I healed faster at six,

782
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: So I was like okay. And then when I was

783
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: twenty five twenty six, I had polyps in my throat

784
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 1: which I had to be lasered out. I had to

785
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 1: eat through a store. I couldn't talk for six months.

786
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 1: I practically lost the sound of my voice. The texture

787
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 1: of my voice had changed. I'm now back to sounding

788
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:47,399
Speaker 1: how I used to before. If now I'm a little

789
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: bit deeper, which is great. But that was pretty tough

790
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: because I was an adult already and going through that

791
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: was challenging. And so I was like okay. When I

792
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: was going through this surgery, I was like, okay, I

793
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 1: got this, like I've done hard things before, and that

794
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 1: gave me more strength as opposed to like, oh, I'm

795
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:04,800
Speaker 1: going through a new surgery. It's brand new. I have

796
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: never been through anything, you know. So I think that's

797
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,399
Speaker 1: a really, really great activity. And I love hearing about

798
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:15,879
Speaker 1: these practical exercises, because I think that that's what we need.

799
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 1: We need to make things tangible and visual. Yes, And

800
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 1: I think we need to remind ourselves of some of

801
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 1: the things that we take for granted. Like I didn't

802
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 1: know what that surgery was going to be like, and

803
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 1: I and I was Okay, I calmed myself down, I

804
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 1: went into it, I came out fine. You know, it's

805
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: just kind of like I did this, I did this. Yeah,

806
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,720
Speaker 1: And we need to remind ourselves of the hard things

807
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 1: we've already done. Yeah, And this time there's one thing

808
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 1: that went the other way. So whenever anyone talks to

809
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 1: me about anesthetic, right or anesthesia, whenever I had to

810
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: do one of these surgeries, I've always had a positive

811
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: experience with it because I'll pray and meditate a lot

812
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 1: before a surgery, naturally, and then when I come out,

813
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: I find that those few seconds I don't think we

814
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 1: would organized, but the few seconds that I'm like coming

815
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 1: out of the effect of anesthesia, I have like really

816
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 1: powerful spiritual experiences, like some of my favorite spiritual experiences

817
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: that have happened in those moments. And this time the

818
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: opposite happened. I actually came out of it with something

819
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 1: called an electicis, which is a partial collapse of the lung,

820
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 1: and I couldn't breathe for like a week, and so

821
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,359
Speaker 1: I was like gasping for air. And it was so

822
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 1: funny because I went into it so positive, hoping that

823
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: I was going to have another amazingly spiritual experience, and

824
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: when I came out the other side, I was I

825
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: was just about just amount of life and yeah, it's

826
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:38,439
Speaker 1: it's But I liked that idea of and I think

827
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 1: I would love to ask that to my mom. Actually,

828
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: I would love to ask her to reflect on her strengths,

829
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 1: because I don't think she's probably done that. I think

830
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 1: she just sees it as that's what we had to do,

831
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 1: or that was normal, or what else could we do?

832
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 1: Like they just see it as they just see it

833
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 1: as like, well, that was the natural journey of life.

834
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:00,160
Speaker 1: And I'm like, no, it wasn't, Mum. You could they

835
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: just stayed where you were, but you did something very brave.

836
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: And I think reminding our parents of that and reflecting

837
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 1: with our parents and that could be really powerful. So

838
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 1: I love those activities. I wanted to ask you, going

839
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: back a bit to the family piece, what are the

840
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: negative effects on our health when there's someone in our life,

841
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 1: could be family, could be our partner, could be a

842
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 1: friend that's there but they're causing continued issues or challenges

843
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 1: or I think there was this beautiful quote you hadn't

844
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 1: hear from John Steinbeck. You said, a sad soul can

845
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,839
Speaker 1: kill you quicker, far quicker than a germ. And I

846
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 1: know that that can be you know, sometimes it can

847
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:44,240
Speaker 1: be your own soul. But the idea that there's someone

848
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: in your life that's like, it's almost like if we

849
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: were doing this interview and there was like a constant tapping,

850
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 1: like a constant tapping, we could probably still get by

851
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,719
Speaker 1: because I'm focused, but there's an irritation, there's an agitation,

852
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: there's some sort of distraction that's going on. I think

853
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,839
Speaker 1: sometimes people feel that in their life life that I'm

854
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: trying to get over my life, but there's this like

855
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 1: recurring thing, this person, this individual, What it talk to

856
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: me about? What that does to our health? Like, how

857
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:11,800
Speaker 1: does that what does that kind of impact us? So

858
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 1: when does it impact us? Well, what we know is

859
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:19,919
Speaker 1: that sources of irritation are stressors, and so it has

860
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 1: that long term chronic effect on our bodies we assume.

861
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:29,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know that anyone's studied, you know,

862
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 1: a tapping noise and what it does to us, although

863
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,399
Speaker 1: actually noise pollution is one of those, yeah, cognitive load

864
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 1: as well, cognitive load. So what we do know is

865
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 1: that being in a chronically stressful relationship does break down

866
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 1: the body, and that there have been a couple of

867
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: studies that have shown, for example, with marriages, that leaving

868
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 1: and a really acrimonious relationship is better for you than stain,

869
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 1: even though there it's very painful to break up a

870
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 1: long term partnership and all that. So I think that

871
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 1: the question then becomes, how do we discern when a

872
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 1: relationship should be worked on and when it's important to

873
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 1: step away? And I think it's always a matter of wisdom,

874
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: of bringing wisdom to this to say, how much do

875
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 1: I have invested, you know, if we have children, if

876
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 1: we've build a life together, I'm going to work really

877
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: hard to make sure I don't throw that away until

878
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 1: I find that there's just no saving it, right, And

879
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 1: people do that. But on the other hand, sometimes there

880
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 1: are friendships, there are relationships that are just chronically irritating

881
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: and they can be stepped away from and more nurturing

882
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: relationships can be cultivated instead. So it really is a

883
00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: constant matter of discernment. But I will say that I

884
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:04,919
Speaker 1: don't want to advocate just being done with a relationship

885
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:09,320
Speaker 1: because there are difficulties, Because there are conflicts in every

886
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 1: relationship of any depth. Right, They're going to be disagreements.

887
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: Many of those disagreements can be worked out, and working

888
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,320
Speaker 1: them out is a source of growth and can often

889
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: strengthen the relationship. So it's important to try where you

890
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:30,240
Speaker 1: can to work out difficulties because the potential for benefit

891
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: is huge. And I think that's the challenge, right. I

892
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:38,879
Speaker 1: think we don't have the tools to figure out difficult relationships.

893
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 1: It's almost like no one ever went to that class.

894
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,839
Speaker 1: There wasn't that class at school. Your family has its

895
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 1: own methodology of how to like some families, every family

896
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 1: has their own way of dealing with conflict subconsciously or consciously.

897
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,720
Speaker 1: So some people go, just put it under the rug,

898
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 1: we forget about it. We'd be civilized. Some people say, well,

899
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 1: we fight it out and then we never talk again.

900
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 1: Some people say, we pretend to be best friends, but

901
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 1: then behind their back, we talk bad about them, right.

902
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: I think we all subconsciously have a family methodology of

903
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:15,440
Speaker 1: how we deal with other family members that we don't

904
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 1: enjoy being with or we do enjoy being with, and

905
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 1: so our tools are often scarred by how we were

906
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: raised in previous experiences. Like, what are some healthy tools

907
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:28,879
Speaker 1: to actually address conflict in a relationship, because I think

908
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 1: that most of us, when we're raised, we're raised to

909
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 1: avoid conflict. We're raised to avoid having the uncomfortable conversation.

910
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 1: We're raised to like, well, don't go there, or you

911
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 1: put someone in their place the extreme opposite, or you

912
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,760
Speaker 1: tell them how it is now. Neither of those things

913
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 1: lead to better relationships. It was so funny. I there's

914
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 1: someone in my life yesterday that I wanted to send

915
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 1: a very clear message to about something that I think

916
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:01,920
Speaker 1: I didn't appreciate about what they did for me. And

917
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 1: it came actually because so many people were telling me.

918
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 1: So it wasn't even my own thought. I didn't even

919
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 1: have that bitterness inside of me. I didn't even care

920
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 1: so in love with what I do. But then I

921
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 1: had like three people in the same week point this

922
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 1: thing out to me and say, did you see what

923
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: this person did? Like, and I know them, And they

924
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:21,719
Speaker 1: were like, you see what this person did, Like, I

925
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 1: think you should tell them. You want me to tell them,

926
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: I think you should tell them. And so I was

927
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 1: being egged on. And whenever I'm egged on by an

928
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: idea that doesn't come from within my own intuition, I

929
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 1: always have to check whether it's aligned with my intuition.

930
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 1: And I that's like a practice that I've had for

931
00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 1: a long time. It's like is this idea mine or

932
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 1: is this idea of someone else's? Like do I really

933
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 1: believe this? Or am I being made to believe it?

934
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 1: Because someone felt like starting a little fire, And I

935
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 1: literally wrote out the text and then I pressed delete

936
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 1: and I said, this is not my idea, this is

937
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 1: I don't genuinely care. I'm gonna let this go. Funniest

938
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 1: thing happened that even I got a message yesterday. Yesterday,

939
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 1: I've got a message from this person. It wasn't about

940
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 1: them apologizing for anything, but they came back with so

941
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 1: many wonderful ideas. They were coming at me with so

942
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 1: much good energy. They were they were at and they

943
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 1: were they were somewhere, and they were like, yeah, I

944
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 1: saw these things, And I thought of you, and I

945
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 1: was like wow, like you know, it was just I

946
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 1: was just about to send this message, and this person's

947
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:25,000
Speaker 1: thinking about me off their own accord. They don't apologize

948
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 1: and they don't think they've made a mistake, but they're

949
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 1: bringing good energy my way. And so the reason I'm

950
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 1: showing that whole example is just I think we don't

951
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: have tools. One tool for me is always is this

952
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:39,320
Speaker 1: how I genuinely feel or is this just how someone

953
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 1: in my life feels about this person? And I'm borrowing

954
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: that emotion one of other tools that we can use

955
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 1: to deal with conflict and issues better in our in

956
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: our important relationships. Oh, first of all, I love what

957
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: you just named because I think I have been egged

958
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 1: on by other people as well and then and I

959
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:00,360
Speaker 1: always regret it, and so taking that pause, do it

960
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: delete it was really important. Another tool for that I've

961
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,800
Speaker 1: found is so important for me is to take a

962
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 1: long view. So what do I want with this person

963
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:16,839
Speaker 1: in the long run, right, six months from now, three

964
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 1: years from now? What do I want? Do I not

965
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:22,400
Speaker 1: care if they're out of my life? And so it

966
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 1: doesn't matter how I handle this now or do I care?

967
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 1: Do I want to make sure that we're okay, because

968
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 1: this person brings energy into my life, because I care

969
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: about this person, because it means that I will adjust

970
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:41,359
Speaker 1: my response depending on the long game, if you will,

971
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 1: what I really want out of this relationship and so

972
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 1: and usually what that means for me is what you

973
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 1: and I were talking about before we started this interview,

974
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:56,919
Speaker 1: which was ideally everybody needs to win, right that there

975
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,719
Speaker 1: Ideally there's no loser and no winner. And so if

976
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,800
Speaker 1: I want to make my point and score one, so

977
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 1: what and the other person ends up feeling bad or

978
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:13,000
Speaker 1: put down? It leaves us both disconnected and in a

979
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 1: bad place. So how then to create a scenario where

980
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 1: we talk about something that's a problem, Because if I

981
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 1: just suppress the problems, I'm going to grow more resentful

982
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:29,920
Speaker 1: and that's going to be its own difficulty in separation.

983
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 1: And so how do we talk about problems in a

984
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 1: way that will allow us both to get to a

985
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:41,160
Speaker 1: place of feeling like we've won, we've gained something, and

986
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: ideally were closer. Yeah, And so usually for me, that

987
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 1: means writing the angry email and then pressing delete and

988
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 1: then sleeping on it, meditating on it. And one of

989
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 1: my teachers wants described as strike while the iron is cold,

990
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:03,440
Speaker 1: wait till the hot iron cools down. That's great, and

991
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 1: then think back, Okay, now, how do I feel about

992
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 1: this and how would I what would be the most

993
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:11,920
Speaker 1: skillful way to talk to this person about it? And

994
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: so those are some of the pointers that I have

995
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,160
Speaker 1: to keep using with myself when I'm all riled up

996
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 1: about something. Yeah, that is that kind of aligned with

997
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:24,479
Speaker 1: the idea of being reflective versus reflective like exactly, yeah, exactly, yeah,

998
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: no that I love that long term thinking. I think

999
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 1: that is such a great question, because what feels right

1000
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 1: right now might not feel right then right, And I

1001
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 1: think that's how we often play it. We go, well,

1002
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: they need to understand this, and they need to learn this,

1003
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 1: and they need to know this, and it's like, yeah,

1004
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:50,120
Speaker 1: they could maybe appreciate and digest that if you strike

1005
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 1: while the iron is cold, But when you strike while

1006
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:56,280
Speaker 1: the iron is hot for a conversation like that, you

1007
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 1: actually end up completely alienating that person and pushing them away.

1008
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 1: Had a client the other day who called me and said,

1009
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 1: you know, my boyfriend's about to come back in. You know,

1010
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 1: it was like it was nine pm and then my

1011
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 1: boyfriend's about to come back from work in half an

1012
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 1: hour and I just found this information out about his

1013
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 1: previous relationships, and I'm going to ask him. And I

1014
00:59:21,360 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 1: was just like, okay, well, first of all, who did

1015
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 1: he get the information from? And she said, oh, it

1016
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 1: was just someone that knows him really, you know, someone

1017
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 1: that used to know him a few years ago. It's like, okay,

1018
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 1: that doesn't sound like great information. I said, second, what's

1019
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 1: he been doing today? She was like, Oh, he's been

1020
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:40,080
Speaker 1: at work, he's been with his family, he had like

1021
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 1: an event, he's been preparing for a wedding, for a

1022
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 1: friend's wedding this weekend. I was like, do you think

1023
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 1: that's the right time to have that conversation? Like he's

1024
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 1: had a long, stressful day, Like is this the right time?

1025
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 1: And I'm sure he'll be open to it, but does

1026
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:58,920
Speaker 1: it mean it's ideal? And they were like no, I

1027
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 1: don't think so. And I was like, okay, so we've

1028
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 1: got two knows so far. And then I was like

1029
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 1: do you again. Then there was the third question that

1030
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 1: I asked, like do you even believe that this is true?

1031
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 1: Like is this even your instinct from your contact with

1032
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 1: this person? They were like no, and I was like, well,

1033
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 1: then you were just about to go and create another

1034
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 1: huge argument that didn't need to happen, and you could

1035
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:21,800
Speaker 1: talk about it later on in a better way. I

1036
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 1: think the long term is brilliant. Another thing that came

1037
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:26,800
Speaker 1: to my mind when we were talking about this was

1038
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 1: there's a great book called Culture Code by Daniel Coyle,

1039
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:37,400
Speaker 1: and he quotes Popovich, who I believe is a basketball coach,

1040
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 1: a very successful basketball coach, so's my basketball level of knowledge.

1041
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 1: And when he would give feedback to his players, he

1042
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:49,320
Speaker 1: had a really fascinating way of giving feedback which would

1043
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 1: encourage them to grow. And then they looked at studies

1044
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 1: and they found that when examiners gave their students feedback

1045
01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:00,440
Speaker 1: in this way, that the students performed better. And so

1046
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:03,600
Speaker 1: this type of feedback had three key areas to it.

1047
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 1: The first and I try and I really try and

1048
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:10,720
Speaker 1: practice this in my life because I think that not

1049
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:13,439
Speaker 1: because it's a good technique, but because I actually believe

1050
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 1: it's true. So the first was that you make someone

1051
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: aware that you of your standards, like you make someone

1052
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 1: aware like like this is the type of life I

1053
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 1: want to live, This is the type of company I

1054
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 1: want to build. This is the type of relationship I

1055
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 1: want to have. So when I'm talking to my wife,

1056
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:32,200
Speaker 1: I'll often say to her, I say, you know, I

1057
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 1: want a relationship where we're both happy and joyful and

1058
01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:37,760
Speaker 1: supporting each other. That's the relationship I want to have.

1059
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 1: And it's like, no one can argue with that. And

1060
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 1: that's a long term view, right, Like what you're saying,

1061
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 1: it's a long term view of me saying I want

1062
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 1: to have a healthy relationship. That's the kind of relationship

1063
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:48,040
Speaker 1: I want to be in. Do you want to be

1064
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:50,920
Speaker 1: in that relationship too? And of course, right? Or like

1065
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 1: I want to build a company with purpose that is

1066
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:57,240
Speaker 1: impacting the world where people are happy to be at

1067
01:01:57,240 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 1: work every day, right, and so do we all want

1068
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 1: to be in that? So that's one thing setting a standard.

1069
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:05,160
Speaker 1: The second thing is reminding the person that you're speaking

1070
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 1: to that you trust and you believe that they can

1071
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 1: rise to that standard, that I know you want this too,

1072
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 1: and I know you can be there. I know that

1073
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 1: you can. Actually I know that if you want that,

1074
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 1: I know you can have that. Like I know that

1075
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 1: we can have that together. So it's not like a

1076
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:26,440
Speaker 1: teacher it's it's together. And then the third thing is saying,

1077
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:29,040
Speaker 1: you know, what are we both willing to do to

1078
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 1: get there? Now that we know we want to be there,

1079
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:33,800
Speaker 1: we trust we can both get there? What are we

1080
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 1: both willing to do to get there? And I think

1081
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 1: when you think about relationships that way, you go, oh wow,

1082
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 1: things could be solved, you know if you if you

1083
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 1: had an effective conversation. And I often say to people,

1084
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:48,360
Speaker 1: use us and we, not you and me. You know,

1085
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 1: there's such a like you versus me, whereas us and

1086
01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 1: we brings us together. So I'm glad. I'm glad we

1087
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 1: went there because I just think that there are I

1088
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:00,120
Speaker 1: just think we've never learned these tools and it and

1089
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:02,800
Speaker 1: it upsets me because I agree with you that I

1090
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 1: think so many relationships are lots too early. Yeah, or

1091
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 1: they die early even if we live long in them.

1092
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 1: And that's even worse. You know, there's there's a whole

1093
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:19,400
Speaker 1: movement to provide what's called socio emotional learning for children

1094
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 1: right where they create you know, curricula, They create classroom

1095
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 1: sessions where they talk about this is what feelings are,

1096
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:31,040
Speaker 1: this is what it's like when you have an argument

1097
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 1: with a friend, what are the ways you can deal

1098
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 1: with your argument with your friend, you know, how do

1099
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:40,320
Speaker 1: you manage these different difficult things in your life? And

1100
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 1: what they find is that when they offer these programs

1101
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 1: to children, they do better in their academic subjects. They

1102
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 1: don't get into trouble as often in school, they don't

1103
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:54,840
Speaker 1: get involved with alcohol and drugs as much. I mean,

1104
01:03:54,960 --> 01:04:00,080
Speaker 1: all these things that flow from these emotional skills and

1105
01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:03,680
Speaker 1: social skills that are being taught. And many times when

1106
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:06,800
Speaker 1: they give teachers these programs to teach their children, the

1107
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:10,240
Speaker 1: teachers will come back and say, we need this cross please. Yeah,

1108
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:12,720
Speaker 1: I mean it makes sense, Like you think about so

1109
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:16,640
Speaker 1: much of your work life is into personal skills as

1110
01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 1: opposed to just functional things right. And I often think like,

1111
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:23,000
Speaker 1: if you get along with someone, you can work with

1112
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 1: them and coach them and get it right. But if

1113
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 1: you don't get along with someone, it's very hard to

1114
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:29,360
Speaker 1: put in the time to get it right. And I

1115
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 1: find that more and more and more, Like I think,

1116
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:36,240
Speaker 1: for a long time, I worked with companies, or I

1117
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 1: worked in companies where people were hired for their proficiency

1118
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:45,680
Speaker 1: or their skills, and they weren't hired for their attitude.

1119
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:49,600
Speaker 1: And you could tell how that affected company culture, where

1120
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,080
Speaker 1: if someone had the right attitude, they could learn the skill,

1121
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:56,080
Speaker 1: but if someone had a poor attitude, no matter how

1122
01:04:56,160 --> 01:04:58,960
Speaker 1: skilled they were, it could be damaging to a work environment.

1123
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,360
Speaker 1: And when I was inside large organizations, I could see

1124
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:05,479
Speaker 1: that very clearly. You talk about in this book something

1125
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:10,560
Speaker 1: called social fitness and keeping our relationships in shape, seeing

1126
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 1: what do we how do we know? How do we

1127
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:15,840
Speaker 1: become aware of this? First of all, the social fitness

1128
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:18,880
Speaker 1: of a relationship, or our social fitness, and how do

1129
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:23,439
Speaker 1: we keep our relationships in shape? Well, this concept sort

1130
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 1: of came out of our finding that many people felt

1131
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:30,360
Speaker 1: that they weren't spending time with the people who were

1132
01:05:30,440 --> 01:05:32,640
Speaker 1: most important to them, And in fact, that was one

1133
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:34,800
Speaker 1: of the big regrets when people look back on their

1134
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:37,520
Speaker 1: whole lives, they said, I wish I had spent more

1135
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 1: time with family and friends. And so I started thinking

1136
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:46,800
Speaker 1: about it personally. And because I can spend a lot

1137
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 1: of time working, and I can spend a lot of

1138
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 1: time just on email just you know, as we all can, right,

1139
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:54,840
Speaker 1: there are just so many things we could do all

1140
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:58,920
Speaker 1: day long. And I began to realize that unless I

1141
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:04,520
Speaker 1: actively exercise those social muscles, and by that, I mean

1142
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:09,400
Speaker 1: if I actively keep in touch with my closest zen

1143
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:12,920
Speaker 1: buddy who lives across town, but I don't get to

1144
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 1: see enough, if I don't make the decision to call

1145
01:06:17,200 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 1: him up and say let's go take a walk, let's

1146
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:22,600
Speaker 1: go have a coffee. If I don't do that, the

1147
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,680
Speaker 1: path of least resistance for me is to stay home,

1148
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 1: is to do another piece of work on a Saturday afternoon.

1149
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 1: And so what we're talking about is this idea of

1150
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:40,440
Speaker 1: beginning to prioritize nurturing, keeping up relationships rather than assuming

1151
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:44,120
Speaker 1: that they'll take care of themselves. Yes, the idea being that,

1152
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:46,520
Speaker 1: you know, I used to think, well, my best friends

1153
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:48,560
Speaker 1: are my best friends and they'll always be that way,

1154
01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:51,960
Speaker 1: and my relationship with my partner is going to be

1155
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 1: fine because it's good now, it'll always stay fine. We

1156
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 1: know that's not true that unless we really invest in

1157
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:06,000
Speaker 1: having new experiences, in long relationships, in reaching out and

1158
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:12,040
Speaker 1: devoting some of our time to keeping those relationships alive,

1159
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:16,080
Speaker 1: it's not going to happen on its own. So rather,

1160
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:20,520
Speaker 1: the path of least resistance, unfortunately, can be social isolation

1161
01:07:21,200 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 1: and more screen time. And so we're talking about social

1162
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:27,320
Speaker 1: fitness as a way to get people to think about it,

1163
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 1: like like going to the gym. You don't. You don't

1164
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 1: go to the gym one day and say good, I'm done.

1165
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:34,880
Speaker 1: I've done that, right. You think, Okay, I'm going to

1166
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:38,040
Speaker 1: do that over and over again. And we would like

1167
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:42,640
Speaker 1: people to think about their relationships. Can talking about interets

1168
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:46,240
Speaker 1: and extrats and that socializolation sense. It's like, I think

1169
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:50,240
Speaker 1: we've also made this very clear as a society that

1170
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:52,919
Speaker 1: we're social animals, we need to be around people, etc.

1171
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:56,560
Speaker 1: And then we meet people who are surrounded by people

1172
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,760
Speaker 1: or appear to be very popular, but still feel alone.

1173
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 1: And then you meet people who are single and feel incomplete.

1174
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 1: And then you meet people who are happy in solitude

1175
01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:11,439
Speaker 1: and they enjoy spending time with their own Like, we're

1176
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 1: all different, we all need different things. But can introvert

1177
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:18,599
Speaker 1: how to introuts find a sense of healthy social fitness

1178
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:21,759
Speaker 1: and how to extroverts also find a sense of healthy

1179
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:26,080
Speaker 1: social fitness because extraverts often appear very socially fit, but

1180
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:29,080
Speaker 1: if you ask them, they may feel quite depleted. And

1181
01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:34,040
Speaker 1: introverts may, like you said, potentially rely on isolation because

1182
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:36,640
Speaker 1: they don't want to step out so how can we

1183
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:39,400
Speaker 1: think about that differently? But it's a it's such an

1184
01:08:39,439 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 1: important question. I mean, I think what we realize is

1185
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:47,240
Speaker 1: that from our work that everybody, whether you're an introvert

1186
01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:49,960
Speaker 1: who who wants just a small number of people in

1187
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:53,360
Speaker 1: your life or an extrovert who loves lots of people,

1188
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:57,920
Speaker 1: that everybody needs a sense that somebody in the world

1189
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:04,479
Speaker 1: is there for them, some emotional safety net. We asked

1190
01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:10,680
Speaker 1: our original study participants at one point, who could you

1191
01:09:10,960 --> 01:09:13,479
Speaker 1: call in the middle of the night if you were

1192
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:19,680
Speaker 1: sick or scared, And some people couldn't list anyone, and

1193
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:23,600
Speaker 1: some people could list quite a few people. What we

1194
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:25,880
Speaker 1: know is that if you're an introvert, you might just

1195
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:28,280
Speaker 1: need one person in the world like that, but you

1196
01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:31,439
Speaker 1: need somebody. And if you're an extrovert, you might have

1197
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:35,400
Speaker 1: more people, but you might only need one person. The

1198
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:39,599
Speaker 1: extrovert who's lonely in a crowd probably doesn't have that person.

1199
01:09:40,520 --> 01:09:44,360
Speaker 1: And that's what we're really so I think this comes

1200
01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:49,240
Speaker 1: under the professional rubric of security of attachment, that everyone

1201
01:09:49,360 --> 01:09:53,920
Speaker 1: needs to feel securely attached, securely connected to at least

1202
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:56,760
Speaker 1: one other person. Kids need it, but we need it

1203
01:09:57,360 --> 01:09:59,880
Speaker 1: all the way through lives all the way into old age,

1204
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:04,240
Speaker 1: and so I think if someone can find the way

1205
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:07,160
Speaker 1: to make sure they have and nurture at least one

1206
01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:12,880
Speaker 1: of those relationships, the rest is probably much more easy

1207
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:17,640
Speaker 1: to take care of absolutely everyone. I've been talking to

1208
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:20,479
Speaker 1: the one and only Robert Wardinga. The book is called

1209
01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:23,920
Speaker 1: The Good Life Lessons from the World's Longest Scientific Study

1210
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:26,479
Speaker 1: of Happiness. I hope you go and grab the bookcase

1211
01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:28,840
Speaker 1: you can see. One thing I love about speaking with

1212
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:33,880
Speaker 1: Bob is that he's great into weaving, science and spirituality.

1213
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:37,320
Speaker 1: You know, he has this amazing zen background. But then

1214
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:40,880
Speaker 1: also as a psychiatrist, I love meeting people who are

1215
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:45,120
Speaker 1: at the juxtaposition of two seemingly opposite ideas but actually

1216
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:48,000
Speaker 1: two things that flow beautifully together. Bob, is there anything

1217
01:10:48,040 --> 01:10:49,639
Speaker 1: that I haven't asked you that you really want to share,

1218
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:51,760
Speaker 1: or something that's on your heart or mind or in

1219
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:54,400
Speaker 1: your intuition that you'd love to share with everyone. I'd

1220
01:10:54,439 --> 01:10:57,320
Speaker 1: love to give you that opportunity. Okay, Well, I'll just

1221
01:10:57,439 --> 01:11:00,519
Speaker 1: state something that's obvious but might not be vious all

1222
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:04,600
Speaker 1: the time, which is that in this quest for happiness

1223
01:11:04,760 --> 01:11:09,200
Speaker 1: for the good life, it's easy to imagine that it's

1224
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:13,200
Speaker 1: possible to be happy all the time. Nobody on the

1225
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:15,920
Speaker 1: planet is happy all the time. And the reason I

1226
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:18,720
Speaker 1: have to say that is because when we look around us,

1227
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:22,320
Speaker 1: we see you know, advertisements and social media where people

1228
01:11:22,320 --> 01:11:25,680
Speaker 1: are smiling and having looked like they've got life all

1229
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:29,160
Speaker 1: figured out. Nobody has life figured out all the time,

1230
01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:31,720
Speaker 1: every day. And I just want to name that so

1231
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:35,560
Speaker 1: that you know that life is filled with joys and

1232
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:38,840
Speaker 1: sorrows and ups and downs, and that you are not

1233
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:43,720
Speaker 1: having a bad life if there's a mixture of joy

1234
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:48,880
Speaker 1: and sorrow and boring days and ordinary days in your life.

1235
01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:52,200
Speaker 1: I love that reminder. I think that's such a beautiful

1236
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:55,320
Speaker 1: thing for all of us to remember. It's You're so right.

1237
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:59,840
Speaker 1: Our external projection is that someone else has it all together.

1238
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:02,720
Speaker 1: Whoever that maybe none of us too. I love that.

1239
01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:05,599
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Everyone's been watching back at home,

1240
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:07,320
Speaker 1: or if you're traveling, if you're on the move, you're

1241
01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:10,320
Speaker 1: at work, wherever you are listening and watching, Please do

1242
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:13,800
Speaker 1: tag us on Instagram, on Twitter, or on TikTok. Let

1243
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 1: us know what you learned, what you took away. When

1244
01:12:16,160 --> 01:12:17,880
Speaker 1: you grab the book. I want you to take pictures

1245
01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:19,720
Speaker 1: of the book tag me to let me know what

1246
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:22,920
Speaker 1: line you've read, what moved you, because I would honestly

1247
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:25,760
Speaker 1: say that the questions this conversation made me ask we're

1248
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:29,200
Speaker 1: deeply personal. You could see I was reflecting, like, these

1249
01:12:29,240 --> 01:12:31,120
Speaker 1: are the things we need to spend more time on,

1250
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:34,639
Speaker 1: and these are the things that we need to focus

1251
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:38,280
Speaker 1: more deeply on, because these are the things that are

1252
01:12:38,320 --> 01:12:41,000
Speaker 1: so simple that we might just miss them right they're

1253
01:12:41,040 --> 01:12:42,800
Speaker 1: they're right there in front of us, and so you

1254
01:12:42,880 --> 01:12:45,920
Speaker 1: might just ignore them. So thank you so much for listening.

1255
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:48,600
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for watching. A big thank you

1256
01:12:48,880 --> 01:12:51,000
Speaker 1: to doctor Robert Wardinger as well, Bob, thank you for

1257
01:12:51,120 --> 01:12:54,240
Speaker 1: making the trip Outen and Honor, thank you so much.

1258
01:12:54,600 --> 01:12:57,639
Speaker 1: Thank you. If you love this episode, you will also

1259
01:12:57,760 --> 01:13:00,680
Speaker 1: love my interview with Charles do Hire on how to

1260
01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:05,000
Speaker 1: hack your brain, change any habit effortlessly, and the secret

1261
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:06,719
Speaker 1: to making better decisions.