1 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to Stuff I've 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 1: Never told you. I don't know if this appeared on 3 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: your radar listeners, but it certainly appeared on mine. And 4 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: one of the latest issues of the Batman Comics for 5 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: the adult aimed DC Black label Batman Damned, readers could 6 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: see Batman's penis for the first time. Are Bruce Wayne's penis? Who? 7 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: However you want to refer to him? And I want 8 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: to make so many jokes, but no, the reason we 9 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: wanted to bring it up is not to make jokes. 10 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: It's to talk about how shortly after this edition came out, 11 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: d C Comics backtracked a bit, announcing future prints of 12 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: that edition would be censored. And thanks to the listener 13 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: Rose for this tip. And the reason they gave was 14 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: quote it did not add to the story, and it 15 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: got his thinking. Here at stuff I've never told you 16 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: about the plethora of gratuitous female nudity across all of 17 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: our media. That didn't add to the story, or I 18 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: would argue that it didn't. So in this classic episode, 19 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 1: we take a look at the history of the female 20 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: nude censorship and art. Happy're listening. Welcome to Stuff, Mom, 21 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: never told you. From how stupp works dot com. Hello 22 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline 23 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: and this week's theme is art history, or rather art history. 24 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: Ha ha, I love it. Yes, indeed, today we're going 25 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: to be talking about the female nude in art, is 26 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: particularly in Western art, and this male muse female nude relationship, 27 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: which I know I remember seeing on screen for the 28 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: first time in the classic film Titanic. That's right, that 29 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 1: was so racy for me in seventh grade. Yeah, I 30 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: watched it in the theater with my mother because she 31 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: felt like she needed to supervise me seeing this nude scene, 32 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: and it was it was a little uncomfortable. I saw 33 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: it with Chad that's my father. I saw with my father. Yeah. 34 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: Leonardo DiCaprio is Jack painting Kate Winslet as Rose wearing 35 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,519 Speaker 1: that wearing that necklace. Yeah, and nothing else. Yeah. Spoiler alert, 36 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: she's not wearing anything. She's wearing clothes in the rest 37 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 1: of the movie. But anyway, another spoiler the boat saints No. 38 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: But since this isn't a podcast on my memories of 39 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: watching James Cameron movies with my mother, let's talk about 40 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: the female nude in art history because the history of 41 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: this figure is fascinating. The very fact that we refer 42 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: to it as a nude and not a naked figure 43 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: is really interesting. And then that whole relationship between the 44 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: male artist and female muse has so much contains so 45 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: much for us to unpack. Yeah, that's right. And so 46 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: let's start off with a quote from Lynda Need, who's 47 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: an art historian and author of The Female Nude. She 48 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: writes issues concerning the female body and cultural value, representation, 49 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: feminism and cultural politics, and the definition and regulation of 50 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: the obscene are brought into clearer focus when the Female 51 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: Nude is read as a historical text. And I mean, 52 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: if you think about it, not knowing anything about art, 53 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: it would make sense that there is some historical context 54 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: to the nude through the centuries. But there really is, 55 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: Like you said, so much to unpack, so much different 56 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: meaning wrapped up in different representations of the human body. Yeah, 57 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: and what we're gonna be doing in this podcast is 58 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: trying to do just that. Read the Female Nude as 59 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: an historical text, and we're going to be highlighting some 60 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: specific paintings and we'll be doing our best to describe 61 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: them as not being professional art historians or art critics, 62 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: and to kick things off, though it was actually the 63 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: group Guerrilla Girls which originally raised this question of do 64 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: women have to be naked to get into the MET? 65 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: And they were raising issue with the abundance of female 66 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 1: nudes in the Metropolitan Museum of Art and the abundance 67 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: of male painters and sculptors represented by them, and the 68 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: statistics they collected just by walking through the museum. We're 69 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: a little imbalanced, shall we say. Yeah. So they've done 70 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: this campaign a couple of times, starting in nine, and 71 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: they ended up putting out a bunch of uh press releases, 72 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: billboards basically media around the number verse that they found 73 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: in nine, they found that less than five percent of 74 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: the artists in the met art sections were women, but 75 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: of the nudes were female. Fast forward to two thousand four, 76 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: both of those numbers had dropped to three percent and 77 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: eight three percent, respectively, and in when they repeated their study, 78 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: they found that less than four percent of the artists 79 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:27,359 Speaker 1: in the MET were women, but seventy six percent of 80 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: the nudes were female. So we're getting fewer female artists 81 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: in the MET and a fewer female nudes which kind 82 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: of shakes out to not necessarily progress. But they were painting. 83 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: Pun there, painting an important point about obviously what kind 84 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: of art is considered important, and also the very gendered 85 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: history of art. They were not really going to get 86 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: into that much in this episode because for a long 87 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: time women were even allowed in art schools. We've been 88 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: having to play catch up. Yeah, exactly. And so let's 89 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:08,239 Speaker 1: take a walk, shall we, yes through the history of 90 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: of naked lady statues and paintings. So let's start in 91 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: classical antiquity, because this is really where the female nude begins. Now, 92 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: of course, we should mention that there are some exceptions 93 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: to that, such as the Venus of Villendorff Statue of 94 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: fertility got Us with the very large breasts and buttocks, 95 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,559 Speaker 1: which dates back to around thirty thousand to twenty thousand BC, 96 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: and also some ancient Indian temple art depicting female nudes. 97 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: But a lot of art historians will tell you that 98 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: the nude, and especially the female nude, is a primarily 99 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: Western art phenomenon that really begins in Greece. Yeah, and 100 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: a lot of this is coming from Larissa Bonfante's paper 101 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 1: Nudity as a costume in classical art. And I was 102 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: just telling christ before we came into the studio that 103 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: this is a very long paper and it could be 104 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: interpreted as a little dry. I'm sorry, Larissa, but it 105 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: is so interesting and and me having only taken one 106 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: art history class ever in college, um, and I was 107 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: such a nerd for it and I loved it. But 108 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: you know, journalism called so I couldn't. But anyway, it 109 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: is absolutely right up my alley. And she she really 110 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: delved so deeply into the context surrounding both the male 111 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: nude and the female nude and why one looks the 112 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: way it does and why the other one is maybe 113 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: not as acceptable or was not as acceptable to begin with. 114 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: But she points out that in ancient Greece art culture, 115 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: everything really revolved around the male nude and what it meant, 116 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: because the male nude was based on this ideal image 117 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: of a man, and the ideal image of a man 118 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: came from athletes. Greeks were all about working out and 119 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: getting buff. Uh in the buff. So yeah, the first 120 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: Olympics in the nude, there were no there were no 121 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: Nike jerseys and shorts. Now, I mean they did wear 122 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: like a loincloth type things sometimes, and she points out 123 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: that Greeks throughout throughout ancient Greek history, they themselves weren't 124 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: even sure where their tradition of donning the costume of 125 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: nudity came from, but that you were supposed to be 126 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: this like super hyper masculine, buff guy who was ready 127 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: to fight if you were nude. Yeah, And she notes 128 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: too how that ideal male nudity was really considered quote 129 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: the highest kind of beauty, which is a little bit 130 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: in opposition to maybe our perception of beauty in the 131 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: twenty one century today, which is often more of a 132 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: feminine ideal. But back then, oh, the body was all 133 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: about that male chiseled, proportioned body. Yeah. And they were 134 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: definitely intended to celebrate perfection and not reflect physical reality 135 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: or idea. They weren't trying to like show what you know. 136 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: The agreekola down the street looked like they wanted to 137 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: show the ideal man who was an athlete or a 138 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: hero or a god. Because male nudity equals power. It 139 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: really symbolized power. But it's also important to keep in 140 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: mind that homo eroticism and homosexuality around this time in 141 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: ancient Greece was totally a okay, you know, it wasn't 142 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: out of the norm um. And so the male figure, 143 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: especially in the gymnasium, uh, the nude male figure was 144 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: absolutely accepted and considered to be a thing of beauty. Well. 145 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: And it's also worth noting too that in exactly what 146 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: you said about how those nudes weren't intended to show 147 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: what the average male body looked like. They were in 148 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 1: the oldest school sense of the word photoshopped or airbrush. 149 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: Maybe we have been doing that, removing our flaws and 150 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: creating these beauty ideals since we first kind of started 151 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: all of this to begin with. And the Greek word 152 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 1: coros ko u r o s is meant to describe 153 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: these types of sculptures of men who are naked standing 154 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: in those kinds of classical power poses. Yeah, and a 155 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: lot of time, if they weren't meant to signify a 156 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: god like Apollo specifically, then they were used in a 157 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: temple maybe to honor him or in a way to 158 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: sort of honored divinity. But the female equivalent, the Corey statue, 159 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: who's also a a woman standing upright facing forward, is 160 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: usually clothed, and she was not based on any ideal 161 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: feminine shape or appearance. She was basically the male shape 162 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: that they were like, Oh, we're going to put a 163 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: dress on this one. It's a lady. And so while 164 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: the male was supposed to symbolize divinity and perfection, he 165 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: was nude and that was fabulous. The woman was definitely 166 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 1: going to be clothed because the context of nudity versus 167 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: clothing in ancient Greek society. I mean, there's so much 168 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: that we could get into, but we won't, but I 169 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: will just touch on it by saying that a man 170 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: was ready to fight basically when he was nude, and 171 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: he was ready to work out and get buff and sweat. 172 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: Whereas if a woman were seen without clothes on, she 173 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: with her pale skin and her soft flesh because she 174 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: doesn't go outside that much and do hard work like men. 175 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: Do you know, she was considered unprotected if she was 176 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: if she was nude or naked, and um would the 177 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: nudity for a woman at this time would symbolize something bad, 178 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: like she was about to be attacked, or she was 179 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: a prostitute or something like that. Yeah, it's symbolized the 180 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: exact opposite of the power inherent to male nudity, which 181 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: was weakness or powerless ness. Now, Bonfonte also points out 182 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: that it could also function as powerful magic. But even 183 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: in that regard, it's obviously not something that is as 184 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: normalized and accepted. Right, But if we hit the fourth 185 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: century b c. Well things get shaken up a little bit. 186 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: Weak it and very famous aphrodite sculpture by Praxiteles and 187 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: he totally throws convention out the window. Yeah, I mean, 188 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 1: this sculpture is mentioned in pretty much any article that 189 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: you would read about the history of the female nude 190 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: because it's kind of the first in the sense of 191 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 1: depicting full female nudity. But it's important that Praxiteley does 192 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: this on a sculpture of a divinity, the goddess of love. 193 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: It's usually um goddesses or you know, these mythological female 194 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: figures that are considered acceptable to be shown in the nude, 195 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: and especially the association with love, eroticism, sex, and also 196 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 1: to mythological figures representing fertility would be acceptable as well, 197 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: because I mean think about how you know, in this 198 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: kind of context, the female body is really just a 199 00:12:55,240 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: vessel for sex reproduction. Yeah, exactly, desire, things like that. Yeah, 200 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: depicting a naked a nude or naked regular lady is 201 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: definitely considered impoor taste. But the gods and the goddesses 202 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: were almost above all that. It's almost okay to depict, 203 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: you know, the Goddess of love being naked, because you 204 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: know you're not. She's not going to care about anything 205 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: you say. Yeah, well, she would probably have possessed that 206 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: powerful magic through her nudity. And bon Fontin notes even 207 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: in classical Greek art, and this is a trend that 208 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: will continue into more modern art, naked women, just everyday 209 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: women would usually be considered prostitutes in that context and 210 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: an art artistic context. But that's not to say that 211 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: the work Bipraxitalities was not at some points titilating. Just 212 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: because it was a goddess and she's above your scorn 213 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: or whatever people doesn't mean that the viewers weren't like, 214 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: oh my goodness. Yeah. Jonathan Jones, who is an art 215 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: critic writing for The Guardian, notes that, uh, apparently at 216 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: least one person, at least one person maybe more, attempted 217 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 1: to copulate with capital inne venus with the statue. Uh, 218 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: and she's standing, we should note she's naked and one 219 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: of her hands is covering up her mom's pubis and 220 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: the other hand is sort of cupping her breast, And 221 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: I mean, seeing it from our perspective today, it doesn't 222 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: it's not shocking because we see so many We've seen 223 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: so many statues, sculptures and paintings like this. Um, but 224 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: I can understand how if you don't see this kind 225 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: of female figure in such an unclothed state and it 226 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: being like okay, and her not just being symbolized as 227 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: a prostitute, maybe that's I mean, what do you do 228 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: with that? How to be? I can understand how it 229 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: would be shocking and perhaps even arousing if this is 230 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: the first time you're seeing something like this, right, And 231 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: a lot of the source says that Kristin and I 232 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: were looking at point out that the very way that 233 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: capitaline Venus is standing also sort of informs the way 234 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: that people think about it and how they interpret it 235 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: as erotic versus art, you know what I mean. Um, 236 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: The fact that she's actively trying to cover herself up 237 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: is doing even more to draw attention to the fact 238 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: that she could be or is a sexual being. You know, 239 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: if she weren't marble. Uh, statues are people to Caroline, 240 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: statues are people too, and by covering up, it's almost 241 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: more erotic than if she were just kind of staying 242 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: there with her hands on her hips, like smoking a 243 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: marble cigarette, you know, like I'm just hanging out. Well, 244 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: and notable too that she's standing next to her her garment. 245 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: She's just come from bathing herself, so there's a reason 246 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: for her nudity. She's not just hanging out for the 247 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: naked for the sake of being naked, because that would 248 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: be awful. Well, that would be yes, that would be 249 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: inappropriate totally. Um. But we see things start to shift 250 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: um in the Byzantine Era and in the Middle Ages 251 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: with the spread of Christianity, female nudes start to get 252 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: covered up basically until classical antiquity gets rediscovered and becomes 253 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: exalted in the Renaissance. And so when we start in 254 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: the Byzantine Era, like in the fourth century through to 255 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages, nudity was associated with guilt or shame 256 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: or even low brow humor, especially women's and overall, naked 257 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: men and women were associated closely with pagan Greek culture, 258 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: which was not okay. And then when you get into 259 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages and the fifth to about the fourteenth century, 260 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: things take a turn because at this point nudity is 261 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: considered down right sinful. Yeah, the emphasis is completely on chastity. 262 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: So Christianity is kind of like shutting down put on 263 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: a robe. But then with this sort of rediscovery and 264 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: newfound appreciation for Greco Roman cultural values, and you see 265 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,719 Speaker 1: this big time in the artwork, and you see these 266 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 1: kinds of images starting to pop up, for instance with 267 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: botta Celli's Birth of Venus, which was painted in fourteen 268 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: eighty four, and this is a very famous painting. Most 269 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: of our listeners have probably seen this. You can probably 270 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: recall Venus standing in her seashell, covering her one, you know, 271 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: one of her breasts, and then her hair is that 272 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: her hair that's covering up her her vulva, So she's 273 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: she's she's nude, but again it's not it's not naked, right, 274 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: And she's standing very similarly to the way that Capital 275 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: and Practicelli's Capital in Venus was standing um, but rather 276 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: than kind of looking to the side like the other 277 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: Venus was, she's looking directly out at you, being like, yeah, 278 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: my goddess, what Yeah, And This is thought to be 279 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: one of the renaissances first large scale female nudes, and 280 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: it's notable too. The Botall was like, Hey, you know 281 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: what I'm gonna do. I'm going to use this whole 282 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 1: mythology plus spiritual, spirituality and divinity thing to make it 283 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: okay for me to be depicting a woman like this, 284 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: and that playing with religious and mythological imagery and symbolism 285 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: is going to be something that other artists as well 286 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 1: will use in order to sort of prevent scandal from happening. 287 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: Otherwise it makes it permissible for them to be painting 288 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: women in this way. Yeah, and I mean that's something 289 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: that we're going to see for the next forever. Yeah. Yeah, 290 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: And and and I'm glad that you mentioned the gaze too, 291 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: because that's something that comes up a lot as well 292 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: in terms of how, at the time that these paintings 293 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: were being shown for the first time, how they were 294 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: in the level to which they were interpreted as scandalous 295 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: or not. Well, speaking of scandalous, we get to Titians 296 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 1: Venus of Urbino in fifteen thirty eight, and there's a 297 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: lot happening in this picture. Speaking of the gaze, the 298 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: subject of the painting is staring right out at the viewer. 299 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: The subject is completely naked, and she has a hand 300 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: again over her volva, but nothing covering her breasts, and 301 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: she is I mean, she is staring right at you 302 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: and like here I am, I'm on this chaise lounge 303 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: and I'm holding grapes, and there's a dog and a kid, 304 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: and there's another lady in the room who knows what's 305 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: going on. Yeah, I mean you have like presumably her 306 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: child and maybe the nursemaid in the background. But the 307 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: thing though about her hand, her left hand, which is yes, 308 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: covering up her volva, and though there is a shadow 309 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: in that region, there are no definitive pubic hairs visible, 310 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: which we will revisit. But her fingertips are not entirely visible. 311 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: And some people found that a bit much as well, 312 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: because it's this question of Titian what were you getting at? 313 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: What is she really doing here? Are we catching her 314 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: in a moment of pleasure or is her hand just 315 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: benignly resting in that spot, just resting in that spot 316 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,959 Speaker 1: there could be a breeze, yeah, I mean, holding a 317 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: pose for a portrait, it would get a little chili. Yeah, 318 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: One would assume. But it's interesting too, talking about playing 319 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: with symbolism. In contrast, you have this, you know, rather 320 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: erotic female body in the foreground, but then in the 321 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 1: background you have motherhood, the child, the maid of the 322 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: sleeping puppy next to her. It's really interesting how all 323 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: of that sort of balances out right now. Meanwhile, in 324 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: the fifteenth century, drawing from life had really become part 325 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 1: of workshop practice. Although women typically we're not used as 326 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: models because Michael Angelo's women, for instance, we're just modified men. 327 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: And this was the same thing that we saw with 328 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: the Greek statues of the Karai, which were male figures 329 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 1: sort of modified to be female. Yeah, and this is 330 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: something that Ellen Graves, writing for the University of Dundee 331 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: Museum uh points out. And I mean, considering that women 332 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: were excluded that much from the artistic process that of 333 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: course they weren't in art schools or receiving any kind 334 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: of formal training at that point, and certainly weren't painting 335 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: any nudes. It was even questionable that they would even 336 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: be able to pose nude for for these paintings. And 337 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: yet them being pictured in this way presented is still 338 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 1: more acceptable as long as they're not actively involved in it, 339 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: then it's okay. But we can look at them and 340 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 1: appreciate them from afar, from behind a frame, the gilded frame. 341 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: It's all a metaphor. But jumping forward to the seventeenth century, 342 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:55,919 Speaker 1: the Baroque period begins to embrace more realism. Example, Flemish 343 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: Peter Paul Rubens, who was the seventeenth centuries go to 344 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: two female nude dude. Rubens was all about some some 345 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: cravaceous lady nudes. And I first learned about Rubens Caroline 346 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: when I was a kid because and I need to 347 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 1: ask them about this, because I have no idea why. 348 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: My parents had this huge Rubens coffee table book that 349 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: they kept in our formal dining room that we never 350 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: really went into all that much. And I remember playing 351 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: in there one time as a child randomly and pulling 352 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 1: out this book and be like whoa, oh, WHOA Should 353 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: I even be looking at this? And it was like, yeah, 354 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: I don't. For my pretty conservative parents. It was a 355 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 1: little bit of a curveball to find at the time, 356 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: but uh, yeah, I kinda. You gotta love his fleshy ladies. 357 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: I was just gonna say they're very fleshy, and I 358 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: was also going to say that, I mean, I think 359 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: that's your The whole thing about your parents having that 360 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: book is a perfect snippet of like history and the 361 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: way that anyone views art and the nude woman that 362 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 1: like that's safe and that's okay because it's fine art, 363 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: you know, and it's it's like harmless almost. It's not 364 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: a magazine like an editorial, you know, spread in a 365 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 1: magazine or anything like that. But yeah, I mean Ruben's 366 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: Ruben's ladies definitely were moving away from that Greek quote 367 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: unquote ideal of like literally using math to achieve the 368 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: perfect proportion both for male nudes and female nudes and statues. 369 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 1: Um his women and many other artists of his time 370 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: started showing women who, yeah, they have hips, or they 371 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: have bellies, or they have butts, they even have a 372 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 1: little bit of cellul life. I know, it makes me 373 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 1: think of us weekly and like showing you know, those 374 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: poor celebrities in their bathing suits and like cars, they're 375 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 1: just like us. Yeah, rubens women, They're just like us. 376 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: Thank you, rubens Um. Around the same time, though, Bernini 377 00:23:54,600 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: also is using nudity in his sculpture, although anitults are 378 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 1: often covered. For instance, if you look at one of 379 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: his sculptures, Apollo and Daphne, it's really interesting because you 380 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: have Apollo kind of chasing after Daphne, and in this 381 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: context her nudity is considered acceptable because going back to 382 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 1: hearkening back to that classical Greek association of female nudity 383 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: with vulnerability and weakness. Clearly she is being like caught 384 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: in one of those vulnerable states, and she's trying to 385 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: escape Apollo. She's turned away from him rather than toward 386 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: him to suggest willingness. But you have to keep in mind, 387 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: I mean, while all of this is going on through 388 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: the centuries, the Catholic Church is definitely trying to put 389 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: a stop to all of this nudity, all of these 390 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: naked ladies and naked gents. You know, they're saying that 391 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: it's so pagan. This hearkens back to some like Greek 392 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: pagan ritual and we hate it. And can't you just 393 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: like put a T shirt on her, you know, or 394 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 1: like the sixteenth century equivalent of a T shirt. But anyway, 395 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: we have so many more great pieces of art to 396 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: talk about, and so much more historical context to get into. 397 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: We come right back from a quick break, so welcome 398 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: back to this stuff. Mom never told you Art History Museum, 399 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: which really only contains trying to count up the number 400 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: of pieces we're talking about. It's a small collection but important. 401 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: And we wanted to kick off this half of the 402 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 1: podcast with my favorite historical anecdote that we ran across 403 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: in this female nude research, and it has to do 404 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: with Diego Valesquez's rokeby Venus, which is I mean, there's 405 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 1: a lot to talk about with this portrait because we 406 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: have it's thought of as one of the most famous 407 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: buttocks is of all times. But yes, beautiful, she's got 408 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: a great butt. So you've got this slender but curvy 409 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 1: woman lying. Uh, she's facing away from the viewer, so 410 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: you just see her back. She's looking into a mirror 411 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: that's being held up by a chubby little cupid. But 412 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: she's she is looking into that mirror. Is it at you? 413 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: Is it at her? Is she contemplating her nudity? Is 414 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: she contemplating how vulnerable she is? Or is she just 415 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: admiring herself? Who knows? Who knows? So many layers going 416 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 1: on here. So Alaska has completed this work in the 417 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: mid seventeenth century, and fast forward to nineteen fourteen. And 418 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: I know I'm jumping out of our timeline for a moment, 419 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: but it's worth it for this story. So fast forward 420 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:44,679 Speaker 1: to nineteen fourteen in England. This painting is hanging in 421 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: the National Gallery and a suffragette by the name Mary 422 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: Richardson has had enough of the rogue b Venus and 423 00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: she walks in and slices it at least five times 424 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,400 Speaker 1: with a meat cutter. What was going on, Caroline, Well, 425 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: she was she was really upset about how Emmeline Pankhurst 426 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 1: had been treated during her arrest, and she was disgusted 427 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: not only with that but also the idea of men 428 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: ogling this naked woman and her fabulous milky skin in 429 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: her butt. She was like, no, this naked lady is 430 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: not going to be around anymore. You're not going to 431 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 1: be staring at this naked woman and you know, getting 432 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: all excited and twitter painted and also free free am ALIGNE, 433 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 1: free mlne and so she the media though nicknames her 434 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: as a result of this slasher Mary, which really makes 435 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 1: her sound like a serial killer, but she was just 436 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 1: a rugby venus killer. Although the painting was restored, even 437 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: though you can if you google image this, you can 438 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,439 Speaker 1: see images of it with the slashes in it. She 439 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: really went for it. I think my first reaction to 440 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: hearing that story was like one of horror that that 441 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: you would slash any piece of art, I mean, no 442 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: matter what the context is or whatever. But the more 443 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,360 Speaker 1: the more I thought about it, the more I realized that, 444 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 1: I think that adds more value to it because now 445 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: historical piece of art that in and of itself is 446 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: so precious, now contains the scars of a really important 447 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,919 Speaker 1: period of history. Yeah. Well, and also too in terms 448 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 1: of what we're talking about at the beginning of the podcast, 449 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 1: reading these works as historical texts and how it intersects 450 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,719 Speaker 1: with the actual real life women on the other side 451 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 1: of these paintings and how they were dealing with their 452 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: bodies in society like it's it definitely speaks volumes. But 453 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: back to our art historical timeline. Let's get into the 454 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: eighteenth century with Rococo. Rococo gets a little playful. I 455 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: kind of love Rococo. Yeah, lots of swirls. Yeah, they're 456 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: just like, hey, Rocco, here's something I love it. Yeah. 457 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: Um yeah, So this is the mid eighteenth century ro 458 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: a Co painter Frand Swas Bouchet's nude painting of Marie 459 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: louise Oh Murphy. What's a name, Marie louise O Murphy. Right, So, 460 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: in the mid eighteenth century Rococo painter Frand Swas Boucher 461 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: paints a nude of Marie louise O Murphy, the mistress 462 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: of Louis the fifteen, and it is described as playfully 463 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: erotic because she's not dainty. She's not like daintily covering anything, 464 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: or she is looking away from the viewer. But she 465 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: girlfriend is totally splayed out on her blanket. She's sprawled out, 466 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: just just hanging out on sort of a chaise lounge. 467 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: I like to imagine that she's watching the Real Housewives, 468 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: like over the edge of her of her sofa bed 469 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: or whatever this is. If you TOAs some stretchy pants 470 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 1: on her, she is me on the weekends, No, I know, 471 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: but I mean she's she's definitely also fleshy as well. 472 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: You know, she is not what you would call like 473 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: the Greek ideal of the perfect nude virginal woman. I mean, 474 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: this woman is a mistress of a member of the 475 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: royal family. Yeah, I mean it kind of puts it 476 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,959 Speaker 1: all out there. And it's also the exemplary of Rococo's 477 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: playful eroticism right where they still got their hangups, but 478 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: they're like, well, but let's add some flourishes to I mean, 479 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: look at if you look at the fabrics that are 480 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: in this painting, I mean they're beautiful, They're so rich. 481 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: I mean, she's lying on it looks like pink and 482 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: white fabric, but it's just like the pink just pops, 483 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 1: and there's also some orange, kind of brownish rust colored 484 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: fabric all around her, and it's like you can almost 485 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: feel the texture of the fabric. I get lots of 486 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: velvet associations with it. But yeah, she's why wouldn't you 487 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: be split out on that fabric? It looks great hanging 488 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: out just you know, Marie Louisa Murphy, rubbing my rubbing 489 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: my bits on all of this pink silk. It's great. 490 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: What a life. Bring me a sandwich. Now, when we 491 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: move though into the nineteenth century, the boundaries of the 492 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: female nudes start to get tested. Some artists start to 493 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: get a little bit more experimental, but at the same 494 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: time putting a little broader context on this. The exclusion 495 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: of women from life drawing classes, academies, and art schools 496 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: continues for most of the century. So even though by 497 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 1: this point male artists have been around for so long, 498 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: they're like, we've painted so many female nudes, We're gonna 499 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: start to get a little more experimental, especially envelope, and 500 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: women are like, can we just get into one of 501 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: those life drawing classes. I mean, I'm fine with my 502 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: watercolors over here, but I wouldn't well in terms of 503 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: testing those boundaries and getting more experimental. We see Mayonnaise 504 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: Infamous Olympia in eighteen sixty three, and what is so 505 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: interesting about this painting, which features a woman positioned almost 506 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: exactly like Titian's Venus of Urbino. She's covering well, she's 507 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 1: kind of got her legs crossed, but so she has 508 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: her hands sort of a cross her lap, but I mean, 509 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:02,959 Speaker 1: you can see her breast, she's not covering it up, 510 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: and she's looking directly at the viewer with a maid 511 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: or some sort of servant next to her um. But yeah, 512 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: she's defiedly looking at the audience, which adds to the 513 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,959 Speaker 1: fact that man A definitely use nudity in this picture 514 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: to shock rather than to idealize, because this woman, the 515 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: subject of this painting was a famous prostitute, and a 516 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: lot of the people who came through the gallery and 517 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: saw this might have recognized her. Oh, hello, Olympia, I 518 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: just saw her. Hello, I owe you some money. Now. 519 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 1: On the flip side of that, though, Eugene Delacroix, Liberty 520 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: Leading the People uses female nudity in a different sense. 521 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 1: It's not so much to shock and titillate. It echoes 522 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: classical Greek nude motifs with Lady Liberty showing her breast, 523 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: exposing her breast to symbolize revolution and liberty. It's depicting 524 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: the French Revolution. She's holding up the French flag and 525 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: she is leading the charge with all of these men 526 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: behind her. So that's a totally different kind of context 527 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: to see. So talking about the kinds of experimentation going on, Yeah, 528 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: so much symbolism because she's right in the middle of 529 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 1: this smoky, bloody, dirty battle scene, but she herself is 530 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: still very pale, and yeah, those exposed breasts are such 531 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: a such a symbol. It's not just yeah, like you said, 532 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: it's not just to titillate. It's to show This is 533 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: harkening back to those Greek ideals of democracy. It also 534 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: reminds me too of Amazonians, where their whole thing was 535 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: going into battle with with the exposed breast singular. You 536 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: show those men, that's right. Um. This is also, though, 537 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: the century where we start to see more depictions of 538 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: female nudes as a dangerous women. Lots of eves Delilah's 539 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: salamis popping up, um. One example is the eight six 540 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: Edvard Monk painting Jealousy too, where you have this eve 541 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,640 Speaker 1: like figure who is sort of halfway nude in the 542 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: background reaching up to pluck what looks to be an apple. 543 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: Standing next to a man in the foreground. You have 544 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: a guy who looks really bummed out. It's a creepy painting. Yeah, 545 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: he's like, I should have known better than to trust 546 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: that Eve. She will lead that other guy astray as well. 547 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: But again, if we look at her, if we look 548 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,760 Speaker 1: at all of these venuses, what what what is missing 549 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: aside from any skin color but white, what is missing, Caroline, 550 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 1: We're missing some body hair, specifically pubic hair. There is 551 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 1: no body hair. Yeah, and oh my god, this I 552 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 1: mean we could have done an episode purely on just 553 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,439 Speaker 1: pubic hair, or the lack thereof in classical and neo 554 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: classical art fascinating. I mean, to be fair, when you 555 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: look at male nudes, there's not a ton of pubic hair, 556 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 1: but there's at least a suggestion, whereas when it comes 557 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: to the women, it really looks like a Barbie doll 558 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: in that sense. Yeah, and a lot of that goes 559 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: back to that Bonfonte paper about the ideal image of 560 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: the of the human form and where that came from, 561 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,479 Speaker 1: and the fact that you know, the ideal male form 562 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 1: is the buff athlete, but the ideal female form, or 563 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: the even the ideal idea of a female human is 564 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: one who is virginal, pure, very young. So that's why 565 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,879 Speaker 1: a lot of the time you saw Greek statues of men, 566 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 1: even though they're buff and they're like supposed to be 567 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 1: the ideal, they have smaller penises because that meant youth. 568 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: Younger men have smaller penises. And I know it's getting 569 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: sort of sort of iffy here, but stick with me. 570 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: And it was the same for the female figure. A 571 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: lot of times she would have smaller breasts to signify 572 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: that she's younger. And what went along with that is 573 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: a lack of body hair, and so what are all 574 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: of these images that we're talking about based on classical 575 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: Greek art? Yeah, yeah, and this was something that was 576 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: discussed in a chapter very read in Modern Art, a 577 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 1: critical introduction, because yeah, we read textbooks sometimes on the podcast. Um, 578 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:26,960 Speaker 1: there's this whole artistic distinction too, between being nude and naked, 579 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: because it's really important that these women, in order to 580 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: be appreciated and almost exalted in an artistic sense, to 581 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 1: be these romantic muses, they were nude because to be 582 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: naked would be to have body hair, would be to 583 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: show pubic hair, and just really what our bodies look 584 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 1: like when we are actually naked. But the nude is 585 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,959 Speaker 1: something more elevated. It's it's airbrushed in a lot of ways. Yeah, 586 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: and of course we have to mention the story of 587 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,839 Speaker 1: the art critic who was terrified by p a care. Yeah, 588 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: and this this is an alleged story that circulates a lot, 589 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:09,439 Speaker 1: so it's grain of salt, but it's fantastic regardless. Yeah, 590 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 1: So there's this story about Victorian era art critic John Rushkin, 591 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,680 Speaker 1: who you know, he was super familiar with hairless nudes 592 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: in the art gallery. But when he went home with 593 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:26,320 Speaker 1: his wife on their wedding night, he supposedly refused to 594 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: consummate the relationship because he was shocked. Shocked, I tell 595 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: you to see her pubic hair. But the happy ending 596 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: to that is that apparently Ruskin's wife was like, okay, 597 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 1: i'll see you later. That's not okay, And then she 598 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 1: married remarried another guy who I think it was aware 599 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: that pubic hair existed. And I mean I think that 600 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: ties in to a lot of the attitude about pubic hair, 601 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 1: which is that and and the nude versus the naked 602 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,919 Speaker 1: thing or the naked thing for people who ever read 603 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 1: Lewis Grizzard. But um, somebody with body hair, male or female, 604 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,240 Speaker 1: is somebody who's like a real, real human, fleshy person 605 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 1: that you might have sex with or who might be 606 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,760 Speaker 1: having sex with someone else. But the marble, cold, stark, 607 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: white nude is something that is it's like perfect and 608 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,800 Speaker 1: precious and pure. Yeah, but it's it's notable too that 609 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: with those classical female nudes, yes they're all bald, but 610 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: sometimes early sketches of them might contain hints of pubic hair, 611 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: so they just kind of gradually edited it out. Um, 612 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: and early modern artists also kept with that convention or 613 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 1: used either a woman's hand or the angle to conceal 614 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,800 Speaker 1: where pubic hair would be. So that's why you always 615 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 1: see these venuses throughout the centuries in repose, but with 616 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 1: usually like their left hand just conveniently covering up their vula, 617 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: which I mean, to be fair, that is a natural 618 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 1: way that all women lay on a chaise lounge. You 619 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: automatically put one hand, whether your clothes or not, over 620 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: you just have to go there. It's just the hand. 621 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: It just it just seeks it out like a missile. 622 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: I mean, it is warm. Um. Well, something else they 623 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: got people warm and hot and bothered was Francisco Goya's 624 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,840 Speaker 1: eighteen hundred painting Lamya dan Nuda, which is one of 625 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:34,879 Speaker 1: the first paintings to intentionally show lady pubic hair. Yeah, 626 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: and here's the thing. It showed just a hint, just 627 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:43,600 Speaker 1: the tiniest, tiniest bit of pubic hair. And she I 628 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: mean also, let's talk about her gaze. She's laying back, 629 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,800 Speaker 1: her hands are behind her head, and she is looking 630 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 1: directly at the viewer. Um and the addition of a 631 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: little bit of pubic hair made it rather scandalous, to 632 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,560 Speaker 1: the point that when it was owned by the Spanish 633 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 1: Prime Minister, it was kept in a private room. You 634 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't put out something like that in your drawing room 635 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 1: where other people might come and be like, WHOA, oh goodness, 636 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: who was that prostitute on the wall? I know? And 637 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 1: it's it's funny though, because this is from but she's 638 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:18,720 Speaker 1: posed in a way that we would be very familiar 639 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: with in like pin ups poses, and the amount of 640 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,800 Speaker 1: pubic hair that is featured in this painting is so 641 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 1: minimal it's it's almost as minimal as Maria Bellows in 642 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,959 Speaker 1: that movie that almost received an n C seventeen rating. 643 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 1: Remember she almost received an n C seventeen rating until 644 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 1: they cut the scene that had her little landing strip 645 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,799 Speaker 1: and suddenly it was fine. It got an R rating. 646 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: But again, like, it's just helpful to point out that 647 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 1: people have and will always be scared of ladies body hair. 648 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: But it's also that triple threat almost literally of pubic hair, 649 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: the direct gaze, and also a more inviting kind of pose. 650 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: She is rather open with her her hands behind her 651 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 1: head like that, but that is absolutely nothing compared to 652 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:10,280 Speaker 1: what French artists Gustave Courbet painted on commission in eighteen 653 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: sixties six and it's a painting called The Origin of 654 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,319 Speaker 1: the World. And it is unlike anything we have seen 655 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 1: up to this point because it is a full on 656 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: close up of a woman's volva with pubic hare, with 657 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: ample pubic butt crack. I mean, it's basically she's lying 658 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 1: down with her legs spread and you, your view as 659 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 1: the viewer, is straight on. Yeah. And it's really interesting 660 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 1: that the painting as it is, as it's known now 661 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 1: is headless, legless. It's really just a close up of 662 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:53,279 Speaker 1: her mid section and her volva. But apparently it's only 663 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 1: part of a full nude that he painted. And then 664 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 1: some art historians think that the guy who commissioned the painting, 665 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 1: who's really into erotic art, chopped out everything else and 666 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 1: just blamo made it what it is today. It's a 667 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 1: nice piece to hang above the fireplace. Yeah, it's really homy, 668 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,800 Speaker 1: you know, it is, yeah, the Origin of the World. 669 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: But it was so surprising, like, especially as we were 670 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: researching this and kind of walking through this timeline of 671 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,400 Speaker 1: like okay, oh, the demure nude after demure nude and 672 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 1: then whoa wow. Even though the image itself, considering if 673 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,360 Speaker 1: you have seen it a naked female body, it's not 674 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: all like, it's not shocking, but in the context of 675 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,839 Speaker 1: female nudes it is. Yeah, it's very shy because it's 676 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 1: just it's so real, like that got real. Yeah, it 677 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,360 Speaker 1: got real, photo realistic, photo realistic. Yeah. And then in 678 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen, police closed a Paris exhibition of Madigliani's paintings 679 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 1: because again they revealed pubic hair. It is a signifier 680 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,759 Speaker 1: of sex, and thus it is associated with, like we've said, 681 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: prostitutes and pornography. Yeah. And even again though too, with 682 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:09,080 Speaker 1: Madigliani's paintings, there is very little pubic hair shown and 683 00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: it's really not even that graphic. Like his style is 684 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:16,959 Speaker 1: not realistic at all. But these women are, they're looking 685 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,440 Speaker 1: at you, their hands are above their heads. Also, this 686 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,120 Speaker 1: one in front of us has a little bit of 687 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,399 Speaker 1: armpit hair as well. She does, she does even more 688 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:26,359 Speaker 1: than that. That's like the most body hair we've seen 689 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 1: so far. She's also orange. She is orange, which is 690 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 1: sort of neked and ora neked and orange. Uh. Yeah, 691 00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 1: the tanning went awry that day. She stayed in a 692 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: little too long. Um. The art world's discomfort, though with 693 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 1: female pubic hair is still palpable, which is kind of 694 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,760 Speaker 1: wild to consider. In two thousand and fourteen, for instance, 695 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: artist Lena McCall's portrait of Ms. Ruby May was removed 696 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,840 Speaker 1: from the Society of Women Artists Annual exhibition because it 697 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: was deemed porner graphic and unfit for quote children and 698 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:08,879 Speaker 1: vulnerable adults vulnerable to what pubic hair? I guess, yeah, 699 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,279 Speaker 1: I mean the painting was this woman, Um, basically, she's 700 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,000 Speaker 1: she's fully clothed, but she has her pants on zipped 701 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 1: and sort of pulled down a little bit so that 702 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,400 Speaker 1: you can see pubic hair, and she's looking right at you. 703 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:20,280 Speaker 1: She's got an eyebrow cocked and I think she's smoking 704 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,040 Speaker 1: a piper a cigarette or something. But yeah, again, the 705 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 1: combination of a woman with agency seemingly looking right at you, 706 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:31,959 Speaker 1: being like, what here I am wearing my little suit 707 00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,960 Speaker 1: with my pube showing, and that kind of outrage though 708 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,680 Speaker 1: happening exactly a century after Slasher Mary is cutting up 709 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:44,960 Speaker 1: the rogueby Venus in the National Gallery is I mean, 710 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 1: it's astounding and in addition to this mystery of the 711 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:56,680 Speaker 1: missing pubic hair, one other glaring similarity with all of 712 00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,839 Speaker 1: these female nudes that we've talked about is how they 713 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,200 Speaker 1: are all white. When it comes to female nudes in 714 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:09,720 Speaker 1: Western art, you rarely see women of color, except for instance, 715 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,239 Speaker 1: in the case of Mana's Olympia, there is a woman 716 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,760 Speaker 1: of color, but she is in the background and clothed 717 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:20,319 Speaker 1: and is obviously uh made or a servant of some sort. Right. Yeah. 718 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,520 Speaker 1: We read a paper called a Pedagogy of the Black 719 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,880 Speaker 1: Female Body by ao A. Klie and she talks a 720 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,759 Speaker 1: lot about how and why the black female body is 721 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,279 Speaker 1: missing from art, and it's really sort of a complicated, 722 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:38,799 Speaker 1: multilayered point that she brings up about slavery and about 723 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:43,719 Speaker 1: the way that African women's bodies were displayed, and how 724 00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,520 Speaker 1: post colonial era, post slavery, there was an effort to 725 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,279 Speaker 1: combat that image of the hyper sexual black woman, and 726 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,520 Speaker 1: so her figure was covered up. But then there's the 727 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,560 Speaker 1: question of, well, why are we covering this woman up this, 728 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,080 Speaker 1: you know, hypothetical women are subject of a painting up 729 00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,960 Speaker 1: when she could be the subject of a beautiful painting 730 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,719 Speaker 1: or sculpture just like anyone else. Yeah, And it's for 731 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,160 Speaker 1: that reason that she writes, quote, the female nude has 732 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:17,560 Speaker 1: not been an ideologically correct artistic pursuit for African American artists. 733 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:21,600 Speaker 1: And this also hearkens a lot to our podcast on 734 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:27,000 Speaker 1: Women's Butts and Sarki Bartman a k. A. HoTT and 735 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:32,399 Speaker 1: taught Venus who is the primary example of that kind 736 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,919 Speaker 1: of scientific pornography really that was happening at the time, 737 00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:41,320 Speaker 1: of putting African women on display to naked, are almost naked, 738 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 1: to ogle their bodies in that kind of way. And 739 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,279 Speaker 1: then on top of that, of course, like you said, 740 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,640 Speaker 1: this hyper sexualization that was going on. And this was 741 00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,800 Speaker 1: something also explored in the book Skin Deep, Spirit Strong, 742 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:59,880 Speaker 1: The Black Female Body in American Culture, which discusses how 743 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,040 Speaker 1: art historian Judith Wilson in the early nineties looked for 744 00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:08,200 Speaker 1: and found zero black female nudes painted by African American 745 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 1: artists in the nineteenth century, again because the subject was verboten. 746 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,000 Speaker 1: And then further, this project called the Image of the 747 00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:22,120 Speaker 1: Black Woman in Western Art research identified only one full 748 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,920 Speaker 1: nude of an African American woman from the nineteenth century, 749 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,720 Speaker 1: and it was created though by a visiting Swiss artist. 750 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,040 Speaker 1: And then the author goes on to talk about how 751 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:35,800 Speaker 1: there are beyond that very few nineteenth and early twentieth 752 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,919 Speaker 1: century nudes of black women. It's just, I mean, it's 753 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,640 Speaker 1: really just doesn't exist in a lot of ways, right, because, 754 00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,759 Speaker 1: as we've touched on throughout this episode, what we see 755 00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:51,239 Speaker 1: on on the canvas or in marble is typically an 756 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:55,239 Speaker 1: artists or a group of artists concept of what ideal 757 00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 1: feminine beauty or ideal male beauty is, and frequently black 758 00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:05,040 Speaker 1: or African American subjects were completely left out of that 759 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,360 Speaker 1: because black men and women in our country were definitely 760 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,680 Speaker 1: thought to be dangerous or hyper sexual WHEREA, and so 761 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,680 Speaker 1: they therefore could not fit this sort of pure virginal 762 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,320 Speaker 1: idea of what femininity should be. Well, and it seems 763 00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:22,279 Speaker 1: like we we end up with then this hierarchy of 764 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,440 Speaker 1: almost morality and like what is deemed beautiful in art, 765 00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:32,200 Speaker 1: where at the top you have these idealized, classical, young, virginal, 766 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:37,040 Speaker 1: hairless female nudes, and then that image of the more 767 00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:43,960 Speaker 1: mature with hair prostitute, usually white, and then women of color. So, 768 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it's so you start to see all of 769 00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,560 Speaker 1: these kinds of patterns emerging, which leads us to these 770 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,200 Speaker 1: questions of, well, what is all of us, all of 771 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,319 Speaker 1: this telling us what are we supposed to think. Now 772 00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,560 Speaker 1: when we walk through the met, say and see you 773 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:03,200 Speaker 1: know that of all those female nudes going on, and 774 00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:08,480 Speaker 1: especially considering the fact, yes, they're painted almost exclusively by 775 00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:12,440 Speaker 1: male artists, and you don't see that reciprocal relationship with Oh, well, 776 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,560 Speaker 1: we also have this huge body of uh no pun 777 00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:19,400 Speaker 1: intended of male nudes that are painted by female artists 778 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:23,920 Speaker 1: because those guys were their muses. Yeah, because women, like 779 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,120 Speaker 1: you said, were excluded from those schools, from those academies. 780 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:28,880 Speaker 1: It's not like they were out there in the sixteenth 781 00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:32,239 Speaker 1: century or you know, seventeenth century getting a commission because 782 00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:36,600 Speaker 1: that was unfeminine and inappropriate. Um. So, a lot of 783 00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,640 Speaker 1: female artists, and there there were female artists, a lot 784 00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,800 Speaker 1: of them would never ever be able to achieve the 785 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,360 Speaker 1: standing that some of these men did with their nudes. 786 00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,319 Speaker 1: And it's interesting too to see how with more contemporary 787 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:54,120 Speaker 1: female artists there's not so much an interest in like, well, 788 00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,960 Speaker 1: let's paint a lot of penises, will show them, but 789 00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:03,439 Speaker 1: rather read an intent to reclaim the female nude. Yeah, 790 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,960 Speaker 1: and I wonder yes, and I and I think that, 791 00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:12,560 Speaker 1: um seeing some contemporary nudes by women of women are 792 00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:16,520 Speaker 1: fascinating and they're definitely more on the Reuben and Ruben's 793 00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:20,200 Speaker 1: end of the spectrum than than not um. But I 794 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,600 Speaker 1: do this does make me wonder about the context of 795 00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:29,640 Speaker 1: that that forever, the female nude has just equaled perfection, purity, 796 00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:34,839 Speaker 1: the man's ideal of what femininity is. So it's it's 797 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,960 Speaker 1: interesting when you have women like those painting uh, paintings 798 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,400 Speaker 1: like Ruby may Um, what that means to them and 799 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,440 Speaker 1: what they wanted to mean to their audience, because it 800 00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:49,480 Speaker 1: obviously means something different than the capitaline venus for instance. Well, 801 00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:54,520 Speaker 1: and that's something that contemporary artist Jenny Saville, whose body 802 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,800 Speaker 1: of work has really focused on the female nude and 803 00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:00,440 Speaker 1: sort of playing around with that and reclaiming it and 804 00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,799 Speaker 1: painting it in less flattering ways than you you might 805 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:07,520 Speaker 1: see in classical art. Um She has said, quote, there's 806 00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:10,560 Speaker 1: a thing about beauty. Beauty is always associated with the 807 00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,520 Speaker 1: male fantasy of what the female body is. I don't 808 00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,000 Speaker 1: think there's anything wrong with beauty, it's just what women 809 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,759 Speaker 1: think is beautiful can be different. So it's interesting to 810 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,920 Speaker 1: see how that how the nude, the female nude changes 811 00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:29,560 Speaker 1: when the artist is also female again, so lovely to 812 00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,920 Speaker 1: get different people's perspectives into art and life. That's right. 813 00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:38,680 Speaker 1: Diversity is important, So now I want to hear listeners 814 00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:40,920 Speaker 1: perspectives on these things. I have a feeling that we 815 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:45,280 Speaker 1: have some art history students listening, perhaps some practicing artists, 816 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,799 Speaker 1: maybe some painters. We would love to get some more 817 00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:54,719 Speaker 1: expert insight into this whole female nude thing. So let 818 00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,279 Speaker 1: us know all of all of your new thoughts. Mom 819 00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:59,920 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email address. 820 00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,840 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom stuff podcast or 821 00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,400 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages 822 00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:13,080 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. Okay, I have a 823 00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:17,040 Speaker 1: letter here from Bethany about our director's episode. She says, 824 00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,520 Speaker 1: I recently listened to your podcast about the first female directors, 825 00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,280 Speaker 1: and oh my gosh, was I inspired and a bit angered. 826 00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,120 Speaker 1: As a film student wanting to be a director, we're 827 00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,480 Speaker 1: required to take film history lessons. The three women you 828 00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:33,120 Speaker 1: mentioned were never discussed in any of my classes, and 829 00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:36,840 Speaker 1: that really ticks me off. This truly is a man's industry, 830 00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,200 Speaker 1: and I, for one, am inspired by these three ladies 831 00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,120 Speaker 1: and others to change that. After I listen to the podcast, 832 00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,200 Speaker 1: I immediately began searching YouTube for their works, especially Lois 833 00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,000 Speaker 1: Webber's Hypocrites. When I have viewed a number from each, 834 00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,880 Speaker 1: I'll definitely email back with my thoughts. However, for a 835 00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,560 Speaker 1: film that isn't necessarily directed by a female but stars 836 00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,600 Speaker 1: Gina Rowland and is phenomenal, please watch A Woman under 837 00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,799 Speaker 1: the Influence, directed by her husband John Cassavetti's and also 838 00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,120 Speaker 1: drying Peter Folk. It's a great film. Thank you ladies 839 00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,560 Speaker 1: for doing this podcast and opening my eyes to how 840 00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,000 Speaker 1: much I didn't know about my career in terms of 841 00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,279 Speaker 1: being a woman, and who has paved the way for 842 00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:13,320 Speaker 1: me to have the opportunities I can. So thank you. 843 00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:16,640 Speaker 1: Bethany Well, I've met the letter here from Samantha who 844 00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:19,560 Speaker 1: was inspired to write us after listening to our interview 845 00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:23,200 Speaker 1: with Julie SEAgel, founder of Dear Kate, and also a 846 00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:27,440 Speaker 1: listener letter about um someone else who was doing the 847 00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:29,719 Speaker 1: same thing of going into a stem field and then 848 00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:35,080 Speaker 1: turning toward the apparel industry. And she writes here, I 849 00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:39,880 Speaker 1: am getting a science degree in textiles. We often overlook 850 00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,680 Speaker 1: the science part of the garment and textile industry. A 851 00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,320 Speaker 1: lot of effort is put into keeping people comfortable and 852 00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:47,480 Speaker 1: safe and there are laws to follow in tests that 853 00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,839 Speaker 1: have to be done on almost every garment that you see. 854 00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,080 Speaker 1: There are acts in the US that states specifically what 855 00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,000 Speaker 1: and how textiles are labeled, and there are a lot 856 00:53:56,080 --> 00:54:00,320 Speaker 1: of specific regulations regarding flammability, children's a pair al and 857 00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,160 Speaker 1: even regulations on how to label fibers that come from bamboo. 858 00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:07,320 Speaker 1: Most of these regulations have at least one test to 859 00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:11,040 Speaker 1: prove that the textile falls within the acceptable limits, and 860 00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,279 Speaker 1: this must be done in an accredited lab. There is 861 00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,200 Speaker 1: also a ton of current research and development in medical 862 00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:21,040 Speaker 1: textiles and protective textiles. So with all these tests and 863 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,840 Speaker 1: all this research being done, it's surprising to me that 864 00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,960 Speaker 1: these women feel weird going into apparel. With the science background, 865 00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:29,560 Speaker 1: anyone can design a pair of panties or a shirt 866 00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:31,520 Speaker 1: or a dress with a little bit of creativity and 867 00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,800 Speaker 1: a pencil. It takes an understanding of the science behind 868 00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,799 Speaker 1: the scenes to understand the best fabric choice, how, when, why, 869 00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:41,960 Speaker 1: tests are done, and to make educated decisions regarding things 870 00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:44,719 Speaker 1: like which die to use and which finish. I think 871 00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,400 Speaker 1: having a background in science and an understanding of business 872 00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:49,799 Speaker 1: gives you a leg up in the industry and will 873 00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,160 Speaker 1: come in handy as you grow your business and encounter 874 00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:56,520 Speaker 1: all these regulations being placed on the textile and apparel industry. 875 00:54:57,080 --> 00:55:00,800 Speaker 1: So thanks Samantha for highlighting this step field that we 876 00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,879 Speaker 1: might not often think of, and thanks everybody else who's 877 00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:05,960 Speaker 1: written into us. Mom stuff at how stuff works dot 878 00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,200 Speaker 1: com is our email address and for links to all 879 00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,160 Speaker 1: of our social media as well as all of our blogs, videos, 880 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,640 Speaker 1: and podcasts, including this one with our sources. So you 881 00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:18,000 Speaker 1: can read more about female nudes, head on over to 882 00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:24,880 Speaker 1: stuff mom Never Told You dot com for more on 883 00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,440 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff 884 00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:28,120 Speaker 1: works dot com