WEBVTT - Vintage Egyptology, with Colleen Darnell 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.760 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:14.880 Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:18.360 name is Robert Lammon. Today I'm chatting with Egyptologist doctor 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:21.799 Colleen Darnell, author and co author of multiple books on 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:24.720 ancient Egypt, who many of you may know from her 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:30.800 Vintage Egyptologist Instagram account that's vintage underscore Egyptologist, and her 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:35.760 popular Zoom classes on various Egyptology topics. So about further ado, 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:42.360 Let's jump right into the interview. Hi, Colleen, welcome to 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:42.760 the show. 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:44.640 Hello, I'm so happy to be here. 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:47.000 A lot of your work, you know, I'm thinking about 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:51.839 your excellent Instagram feeds, but also your Zoom classes. This 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:55.000 work is aimed at making learning about hieroglyphics and ancient 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:59.440 Egypt more accessible. How did these projects come together and 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:00.000 how's it going. 0:01:00.320 --> 0:01:03.160 I have always felt like one of my main goals 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:05.760 as an academic is to take all of my research, 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:09.000 to take the scholarship that has been done in Egyptology 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:12.280 for well over one hundred years and make it something 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:16.280 that people can understand, while at the same time not 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:19.280 leaving off the nuance. I feel like a lot of 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:23.200 times things get oversimplified, and I don't think that's fair either. 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:26.760 So I've been very lucky through Instagram and just because 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:29.120 I was on a lot of documentaries before, to be 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:32.640 a part of Lost Treasures of Ancient Egypt on the 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:35.959 Natio Channel and a lot of other documentaries, and with 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:40.800 the lockdowns and COVID, I started a Zoom Egyptology program 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:45.080 teaching how to read hieroglyphs in twenty twenty one. I 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:47.920 have been doing that ever since and the program has 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:53.320 grown tremendously. Hundreds of people from twenty countries have taken 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:57.360 hieroglyphic courses and even more the lecture classes. 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:03.160 Wow, what is the experience level tend to be for 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:05.480 folks taking your classes? Are there a lot of newcomers? 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:09.359 Are there academics, people in college and so forth? 0:02:09.840 --> 0:02:14.320 It's really everybody. I even have a genius eleven year 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:21.480 old who takes the hieroglyphic classes, and it really runs 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:24.800 from high school students. Occasionally I do get someone who's 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:30.119 actually studying in a program for a master's or bachelor's 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:33.480 and just wants a little bit more hieroglyphic experience or 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:36.679 is particularly interested in a topic them offering as a 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:40.160 lecture class, say something on magic and religion or not, 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:42.639 nor the pre dynastic periods, something that they can't get 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:45.520 as part of their program. So it has actually supplemented 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:49.400 some people's actual academic coursework. And then just a tremendous 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:54.120 amount of people adults and they're working, they have kids, 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:57.520 they want to take Zoom classes, or they're retired. And 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:01.680 I love it when sisters, where husbands and wives do 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:04.360 it together. It's a lot of fun. It can become 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:06.960 a family experience awesome. 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:11.680 So especially I'm guessing with newcomers and general audience folks, 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:14.280 what are some of the key preliminary ideas you like 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:17.680 to stress about ancient Egypt and or the ancient Egyptian 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:19.960 language when they enter into these classes. 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:23.000 In terms of the language, the first thing that I 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:27.280 always have to stress is that no matter how artistic 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:29.920 each individual hieroglyphic can be, and they truly can be 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:33.880 miniature works of art, the majority of signs are phonetic 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:37.400 in usage. So there are signs that are direct representation 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:40.200 or word signs. There are signs that are classifying signs 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:43.760 that we called determinatives that have no phonetic value, but 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:46.440 the majority that you see in a hieroglyphic inscription, are 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:49.200 going to actually write the sounds of the ancient Egyptian language. 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:51.960 And what I do in the hieroglyphic classes is take 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:55.160 people from that very beginning and then build up bit 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:58.400 by bit by bit. I think sometimes people are a 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:03.080 little surprised about grammar because you expect Greek and Asia Latin, 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.040 you're gonna have to memorize a lot of grammar, and 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:07.240 the same is true with the Egyptian although in some 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:11.040 ways the grammar's a little bit less complex simply because 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:14.880 of the way the conjugation system works. In terms of 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:19.719 the lecture classes, something that I try to always stress 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:24.200 is the ancient Egyptian civilization was not perfect. No civilization 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:28.080 ever has been or will be. But their ideal was 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:34.600 something called mot cosmic justice, define balance and order. And 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:39.920 their sense of mot basically right and wrong, is shockingly 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:43.640 similar to our own. And so even if they didn't 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:48.560 live up to that idea, it's really interesting and very important, 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:52.480 and very rarely emphasized the extent to which the Egyptians 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:57.480 wanted to follow this moral code and prided themselves, from 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:01.479 kings all the way down to farmers that they acted 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:06.400 in a morally upright and compassionate way to both people 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:11.039 who were in positions of authority. But they also talk 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:14.159 about giving bread to the hungry, taking care of the 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:17.080 orphan and the widow. And then because it's ancient Egypt, 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:22.360 they talk about farrying the boatless person. And there's a 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:27.040 word boatless that's actually a single word in ancient Egyptian. 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:29.839 So in terms of the writing, the phonetic aspects, and 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:34.039 in terms of overall ancient Egyptian civilization, emphasizing something that 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:38.120 I think the ancient Egyptians themselves would really want us 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:40.440 to have as the first thing we know when we 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.400 are approaching their history and society and religion. 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:46.240 Now, I was looking at a book that you co 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:50.720 wrote with John Coleman Darnell, Egypt's Golden Couple When Natan 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:55.920 and Nephertidi were gods on Earth explores the impact that 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:59.719 this ancient power couple had on the Egyptian kingdom. Can 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:02.040 you give us just a little taste of this? How 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:04.320 did this couple change the world. 0:06:04.680 --> 0:06:07.520 One of the unusual aspects of the reign of Achnan 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:11.600 and Efertiti is the extent to which they concentrated political 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:15.159 religious and economic power in their capital city of ahid 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:19.920 Aaden and seem to have been directly responsible for the 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:25.200 mean religious rituals. Where in the tombs even of the 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:28.200 High Priest of Aten, we don't see the high priest 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:32.320 doing his day to day activities or directly worshiping the 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:34.440 Sun God, which is what we would expect both before 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:37.880 and after the reign of Aughnan and Efertiti. Instead, we 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:42.120 see the royal family worshiping Aughten and going about their 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:45.520 day to day lives, which are themselves transposed into this 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:50.359 ritual setting. What this means then is that not Neverrititi 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:56.160 have interposed themselves between people and the gods. And while 0:06:56.320 --> 0:07:01.160 a king is supposed to mediate between mankind and the 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:06.120 celestial realm, it is to facilitate that interaction. People in 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:09.880 ancient Egypt could make prayers, could address the gods directly, 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:13.720 even outside temple ritual What's unusual then about Aknan and 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:17.360 Evertiti is the extent to which they put themselves in 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:21.560 that role of gods to be worshiped, and then they 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:25.040 can interact with the ultimate solar deity, who is Atten. 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:29.240 Now. I love the way that this book opens up 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:36.400 discussing examples of just very contradictory historical interpretations of Acnaton 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:39.680 and at his queen Nephrititi. You know, on one hand, 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.760 just a savior that changes the world for the better, 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:47.600 like almost like a Jesus or Buddha type figure, as 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.400 you discuss, and then on the other hand, views that 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:54.480 he's an incestuous, twisted monster that brings a reign of terror. 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.360 Why have these two been viewed in such extreme ways 0:07:57.400 --> 0:07:59.320 and where where does the truth seem to lie? 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:03.840 Some of those extreme perspectives on Acnaton and Evertdy have 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:06.760 to do with the chronological development of scholarship. So a 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:11.920 lot of the christ like interpretation of Achnaton is earlier 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:16.800 in the twentieth century James Henry breasted Arthur Weigel, and 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:20.480 as you move forward in time, there is an increasingly 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:24.280 cynical perspective, and I think it had reached at certain 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:28.840 points a true fever pitch of Achnaton as twisted monster. 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:35.480 And we diagnose this essentially as a problem with not 0:08:35.679 --> 0:08:38.560 going back to the primary sources, and that when you 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:41.520 do go back to the primary sources, a lot of 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:47.800 scholarship still relies on interpretations of earlier Egyptologists. And one 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:50.559 of the best examples of this, and the longest chapter 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:53.240 in the book, is there's an inscription from the very 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:56.520 beginning of within the first five years of Achnaton's Raim, 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:00.880 where all earlier translations, in every single reference to this 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:06.680 text was that the gods, the statues of the gods ceased, 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:11.479 they stopped. But that doesn't make sense. The ancient Egyptians 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:18.359 know that statues don't move. Now, rituals can stop, statues 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:21.560 can fall down, but the Egyptians wouldn't expect a statue 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.320 to move, So how could a statue just stop? And 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:27.520 as it turns out, it's a much more common verb, 0:09:28.080 --> 0:09:31.800 a homophone that means to desire. And what I'm not 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:36.800 is actually saying is that he's doing what the gods desire. Now, 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:39.640 ultimately he's only going to do what Aunton desires and 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:43.320 deny the existence of other gods. But in that particular text, 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:46.720 he's not yet as radical as he's going to be. 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:51.360 But because when you're looking at the rain of Aknaton, 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:55.560 almost everybody looks at him through the perspective of what's 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.040 happening than in their own time. And that's been true 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:01.839 ever since People have discussed doc mount in ebertity or 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:05.360 assumptions that have previously been made, and where we thought 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:08.160 we could really contribute to the scholarship of achnant in 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:13.160 epertity was re examining every single primary source and questioning 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:17.880 the exact meaning of every word in order to arrive 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:22.800 at new conclusions that might have been missed simply because 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:26.960 of the bias of this is how the word has 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:30.120 been translated, this is how it must continue to be translated, 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:32.600 and not thinking, wow, there might be a totally different 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:35.480 way to view this particular action. 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:38.520 That's fascinating, But I thought I might might go ahead 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:42.760 and ask what does the name mean? Ocnoton how do 0:10:42.760 --> 0:10:43.480 we translate this? 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:47.880 The first word in Achnaton's name is this root ach 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:53.600 that means luminosity or effectiveness, and those two concepts are 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:56.480 related in each Egyptian because of the very fact that 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:02.880 sunlight causes changes, they were well aware of bad effect. 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:07.599 The next that n actually means four is a preposition, 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:10.520 and Aten is the name of the god. So if 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:14.240 we were to break it apart in ancient Egyptian grammatical terms, 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:19.120 it would be Ah and Aten and the vowels themselves. 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:24.120 The fact that is ah n auten achnaton rather than 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.640 achna tone with an oh at the end. They didn't 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.920 write the vowels in Egyptian in what sounds like vowels 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:33.400 when I say ah, for example, that ah is actually 0:11:33.400 --> 0:11:35.880 not a vowel. It's an olive, which is a semi 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:39.560 vocal consonant, and that that can get a little bit confusing, 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:41.920 but that's the best sort of approximation. 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:46.880 Yeah, we when we cover ancient Egyptian topics on the 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:49.960 show here, I feel like I'm always wrestling with exactly 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:53.000 how I should be saying any any particular name, Like 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:56.200 even with some of the more well known gods, like 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:59.800 is it ray? Is it raw? Is there like a 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:03.960 of agreed upon standards in Egyptology today? 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:09.560 There isn't, So ray raw. Both are the same in 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:13.680 terms of how you're gonna see or pronounced the A 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:18.559 or a is that we say actually comes from an ion. 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:23.560 So if you're pronouncing the I in correctly, say in Arabic, 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:26.959 then you're getting a little bit closer to the ancient Egyptian. 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:29.320 But because that's a sound that doesn't exist in Indo 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:34.680 European languages, we just fudget and do a vowel. But 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:38.679 when you're reading hieroglyphs, you not only look at the 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:41.680 hieroglyphs themselves, but before you get to an English translation, 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:44.200 we do an extra step, and it's an artificial step. 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:46.480 It's not something the Anian Egyptians would have done, which 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:50.720 is called transliteration. So there are actually specific characters. A 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:53.760 lot of them are just consonants in you know that 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.959 we have R, B, M and those days the same. 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:02.040 But for these sounds that don't exist, say in English, 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.720 although they do exist in other Afroisiatic languages, there are 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:09.400 particular characters that you use. So when we're actually looking 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:13.960 at something written that's mostly agreed upon and consistent, but 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.720 everyone pronounces it a little bit differently, and it doesn't 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:22.079 because it doesn't affect the clarity of what we're actually saying, 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:34.199 it tends not to be a big problem. 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:36.840 Now, as you're also co author in the book Tutan 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:39.880 Commons Armies, I thought i'd ask a couple of ancient 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:43.800 military questions. When it comes to the aesthetics often associated 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:47.200 with ancient Egypt, I've always found that that Kepish sword 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:52.079 very striking, this kind of long curved sickle like blade, 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:54.840 I think you know, no matter you know where the 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:59.360 listener falls into the Egyptology Egypt Domania sort of spectrum. 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:04.480 I've probably seen some depiction, be it realistic or exaggerated, 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.040 of this, and it may, I guess, be easy to 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.319 just look at it as being like overly stylized. But 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.079 what was the purpose of this design and how is 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:13.680 it used? 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:18.280 The ancient Egyptian hepesh sword looks like a sickle, as 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:21.680 you say, it's it's very striking esthetically, but the cutting 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:24.680 blade is actually on the outside. This is a weapon 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.400 that we first really see come into common use in 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:31.280 the New Kingdom. There are several examples buried in the 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:34.560 tomb of Chion Common, including one smaller one that has 0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:36.840 a sharper blade that might have been used a little 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.560 bit more as when you would use a sword. The other, 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:45.000 a larger hebesh sword, has more of a chisel white blade. 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:48.840 It might have been used more like an axe, not 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:52.400 something that would have had as much slicing power as 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:57.040 a sword. There are also thinner, rapier type swords that 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:00.920 were probably used by chariot tears, but those are relatively 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:02.600 uncommon in the archaeological record. 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:05.840 Yeah, this is I found all this fascinating because I 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.200 guess you know, from like a you know, modern and 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:11.360 then European perspective, we we we look at these weapons 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.200 and we think about them in terms of tools or 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:16.360 weapons that we're familiar with, like the sickle or like 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:19.080 the sword, when the way you describe it, yeah, maybe 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:23.480 an axe is actually a better comparison to make here. 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:26.240 Now you mentioned the chariot, I wanted to ask a 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.640 question about the chariot as well, because I feel like 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:32.120 this is such an icon of ancient Egyptian art and 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:36.440 certainly you see it in and depictions of ancient Egypt 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.480 be accurate or not. And uh, I often feel like 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:43.160 this is a technology that we're very far removed from 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:45.600 in the modern world, you know, like how do we 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:47.360 how do we look at the chariot and how do 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:50.480 we appreciate it, you know, in comparison to things like 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.240 maybe a person riding a horse on a modern saddle 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:56.960 or uh, you know, some manner of kart. Can you 0:15:57.080 --> 0:15:59.080 tell us just a little bit about how important the 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.440 development of the cheir it was to ancient Egyptian warfare. 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:06.800 The cherio comes into Egypt about sixteen hundred BC and 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:10.040 domesticated horses, possibly a little bit earlier, so it takes 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:12.880 quite some time to go from the domestication of the 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.960 horse around four thousand BC on the steps of Kazakhstan 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:20.920 all the way into the ancient Eies. Horses and chariots 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:25.080 transform warfare into ancient Egypt. It becomes the third branch 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:27.720 of the Egyptian military. They had a very well developed 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:32.520 infantry and navy. And because that adoption of the horse 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:37.720 around sixteen hundred BC coincides with the expulsion of the 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:40.680 foreign dynasty ruling over the northern part of Egypt, the 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:46.240 so called Hixos dynasty, they are expelled around fifteen fifty BC, 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:49.480 and at that point, with the founding of the New Kingdom, 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:54.640 the Egyptians make a decision to expand their empire both 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:56.920 to the north and to the south. They had to 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:00.600 the south before, but they go even further to the north, 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:04.320 not only to gain resources and greater access to trading routes, 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.440 but also to have a buffer zone so to prevent 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:11.439 further foreign conquest. So there's a number of reasons for 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:15.080 that empire, and the chariot is part of that. The 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:19.159 big set piece battles of the Bronze Age are battles 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:25.200 bought between chariots with infantry support. You mentioned how we 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:29.760 conceptualize ancient battles and ancient weapons through comparisons with what 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:34.040 we know, right, and sometimes you will read I don't 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:36.800 think this happens as much anymore, but that the chariot 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.440 was like the tank of the ancient world. And that's 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:43.199 not true at all, because horses do not like to 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:46.600 crash into one another, nor will they run in charge 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:50.679 into infantry, and certainly you don't want to do that 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:54.560 with the chariot because chariots were very expensive. That's another 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:59.480 interesting aspect of the move towards chariot work in the 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:04.920 Bronze is it's a warfare for highly developed and wealthy 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:07.679 civilizations because you have to be able to invest in 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:13.879 the horses themselves, the pasturage, the training facilities, training the 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:20.760 crews building the chariots. They were the really advanced vehicles, 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:24.600 advanced technology of the dead. And the use of a 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:29.320 chariot in battle is as a mobile archers platform. So 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:33.520 there are other civilizations, for example, the hit Heights who 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:36.920 fight against the Egyptians at this famous Battle of Kotash 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:41.000 during the reign of Ramsey's The second, the hit Heights 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:45.919 view the chariot, or have outfitted their chariots with three people, 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:51.200 essentially more like mobile infantry and moving people from one 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:53.639 place to another and then fighting more as ground troops. 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:58.400 The classic Egyptian chariot, which was much lighter, you could 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.800 carry it a single person and could carry the cab 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:08.320 of the chariot. It's remarkable, And with the archers inside 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:12.240 the cab and then one person driving, you could essentially 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:17.000 deliver projectiles all across the front of the opposing force 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.560 and then circle back around and then the infantry could 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:21.080 be brought in. 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:24.679 Wow. So it sounds like if one were too roughly 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:28.399 compare it to some piece of modern military technology, it 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:30.640 would actually maybe be more accurate to compare it to say, 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:34.679 like a jet fighter or something, or obviously not in 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:38.640 the air, but more of a certainly a ground attack scenario. 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:43.640 But in terms of being something expensive, mobile and arranged 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:44.280 in nature. 0:19:44.720 --> 0:19:45.760 I like that comparison. 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:48.919 Well, thank you, Yeah, you've given me a whole new 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.760 way to think about the chariot here. Now, a number 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:53.680 of our listeners here in Stuff to Blow your Mind 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:57.720 are film fans, and I was excited to see that 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:01.160 you have conducted zoom classes on ancient Egypt as depicted 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.480 in film. So I have a couple of questions about this, 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:09.040 starting certainly more on the Egypt Domania side of things. 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:13.280 Do you have a particular guilty pleasure from Egypt Domania cinema? 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:17.800 I do like some movies set in ancient Egypt, although 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:22.680 I would say less guilty pleasure, only because the ancient 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:29.959 Egyptians themselves cast their history in entertaining fictional terms. In 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:33.280 a book I wrote in twenty thirteen called Imagining the Past, 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:37.920 I identified four works of ancient Egyptian historical fiction, meaning 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:42.840 they actually wrote the fiction set three hundred years for example, 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:45.199 Rain of Ramsey's the second about twelve fifty, and then 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.439 they're setting something three hundred years, two or three hundred 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.520 years earlier. I think the at Egyptians would appreciate, at 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:55.119 least that people are trying now some of those details. Yes, 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:57.520 very annoying, and that's actually one of the reasons why 0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:00.760 I decided to teach the class is not so much 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:04.959 enjoying all the movies, but using them as a jumping 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:09.160 off point, because the visual nature, the dialogue, the sets, 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:14.160 the characters, everything about that gives you a starting point 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:17.840 for them saying, Okay, what about this is accurate? What 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:21.840 about this is based on something but has been manipulated 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:24.480 in a way that actually works to support the story 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:27.760 and doesn't go against generally what we know about ancient 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:29.920 Egypt And where is it just flat out wrong and 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:32.480 they should have never done it. So that was that 0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:36.440 was how I approached the class. And the ancient Egyptian 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:41.040 film was so much fun to prepare. We did mummy movies, 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:46.040 we did epics so Cleopatra, Tank Commandments, and then some 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:49.159 movies that are much less well known, such as the 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:54.800 Polish film Pharaoh, which is by far the best in 0:21:54.920 --> 0:22:02.760 terms of costumes and sets. Costumes especially, it's incredible and 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:07.479 those were designed by an Egyptian costume set designer and 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:11.280 director named Shadi Afto Salam. And so I highly recommend 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:13.879 the Polish film Pharaoh. 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:18.480 Oh wow, this is so this is from nineteen sixty six. Yes, excellent. Yeah, 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:21.840 I have not seen this, but this looks this looks remarkable. 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:26.560 Now I'm a film that I know that you're a 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:28.360 fan of. I wanted to ask about as well, because 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:30.720 I was not familiar with this. I have to admit 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:34.879 to my own inexperience with Egyptian cinema as an actual 0:22:34.920 --> 0:22:38.600 Egyptian cinema. Yeah, I was very interested in mentioned of 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:42.240 this nineteen sixty nine film, The Night of Counting the Years. 0:22:42.800 --> 0:22:44.280 Can you tell us a little bit about this film 0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:45.160 and why it's important. 0:22:45.520 --> 0:22:49.240 Absolutely. It's also called The Mummy, so a couple of 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:53.280 different titles there, and it was directed by Shadi aftal Salam, 0:22:53.520 --> 0:22:57.680 the same man who did the costume signs for Pharaoh, 0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:01.680 and he also did some costume designs for Cleopatra for 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:08.359 the Great Makowitz disaster, that is Cleopatra, although sadly many 0:23:08.359 --> 0:23:10.399 of them were not incorporated as much as they should 0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:13.600 have been into the movie. Night of Counting the Years 0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:17.719 is a fictionalized version of what happened in the eighteen 0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:20.640 eighties with an Egyptian family living on the west bank 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:25.440 of Luksor called the Abbetol Russuls, and they had found 0:23:26.119 --> 0:23:31.359 a royal cache, so not just a single royal tomb, 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:36.760 but a place where dozens of mummies from the New 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:40.880 Kingdom in early third Interviewedia period had been re ramped 0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:44.879 and then cashed put into a single burial which is 0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:47.800 a little bit to the south of the Temple of 0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:51.520 Hotch episode at darl Bahri and John and I actually 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:53.679 got to go down there. It's not open to the public. 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:56.480 It had not been opened, i think for fifteen years. 0:23:56.800 --> 0:23:58.879 They knocked away the concrete and we got to go 0:23:58.920 --> 0:24:01.760 down there to film an episode of Lost Treasures of Egypt. 0:24:02.080 --> 0:24:06.120 It was one of my favorite experiences. So it's absolutely 0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:08.119 it's based on a real event, although the names are 0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:13.080 changed in Shadi albal Salam's movie. And the Egyptologists, the 0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:16.520 French Egyptologists who were in charge of the antiquity service 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:20.000 at the time, had realized that this was going on, 0:24:20.040 --> 0:24:22.440 that some royal toom have been found because various antiquities 0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:25.359 were popping up on the market, and two of the 0:24:25.400 --> 0:24:28.720 brothers turned on one another and that's how everything was 0:24:28.760 --> 0:24:31.960 found out. And then the material was taken in much 0:24:31.960 --> 0:24:36.800 haste from Luxor to the Chiro Museum the Bulock Museum 0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:42.120 in Cairo at the time, and that was news all 0:24:42.160 --> 0:24:44.960 over the world, very very dramatic, and the mummies ended 0:24:45.040 --> 0:24:49.080 up being the mummies of the New Kingdom pharaohs. So 0:24:49.119 --> 0:24:51.440 those are the mummies that you can see now beautifully 0:24:51.480 --> 0:24:56.320 displayed in the National Museum of Egyptian civilization through the 0:24:56.320 --> 0:24:58.520 movie Night of County in the Years then, Shadiy Alvdala 0:24:58.560 --> 0:25:03.080 Salam uses this movie as a commentary on the view 0:25:03.160 --> 0:25:07.000 of the past by the present and doing this through 0:25:07.000 --> 0:25:11.600 the lens of neorealism. The other part that I really 0:25:11.680 --> 0:25:14.840