Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My
Speaker 2: name is Robert Lammon. Today I'm chatting with Egyptologist doctor
Speaker 2: Colleen Darnell, author and co author of multiple books on
Speaker 2: ancient Egypt, who many of you may know from her
Speaker 2: Vintage Egyptologist Instagram account that's vintage underscore Egyptologist, and her
Speaker 2: popular Zoom classes on various Egyptology topics. So about further ado,
Speaker 2: Let's jump right into the interview. Hi, Colleen, welcome to
Speaker 2: the show.
Speaker 3: Hello, I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 2: A lot of your work, you know, I'm thinking about
Speaker 2: your excellent Instagram feeds, but also your Zoom classes. This
Speaker 2: work is aimed at making learning about hieroglyphics and ancient
Speaker 2: Egypt more accessible. How did these projects come together and
Speaker 2: how's it going.
Speaker 3: I have always felt like one of my main goals
Speaker 3: as an academic is to take all of my research,
Speaker 3: to take the scholarship that has been done in Egyptology
Speaker 3: for well over one hundred years and make it something
Speaker 3: that people can understand, while at the same time not
Speaker 3: leaving off the nuance. I feel like a lot of
Speaker 3: times things get oversimplified, and I don't think that's fair either.
Speaker 3: So I've been very lucky through Instagram and just because
Speaker 3: I was on a lot of documentaries before, to be
Speaker 3: a part of Lost Treasures of Ancient Egypt on the
Speaker 3: Natio Channel and a lot of other documentaries, and with
Speaker 3: the lockdowns and COVID, I started a Zoom Egyptology program
Speaker 3: teaching how to read hieroglyphs in twenty twenty one. I
Speaker 3: have been doing that ever since and the program has
Speaker 3: grown tremendously. Hundreds of people from twenty countries have taken
Speaker 3: hieroglyphic courses and even more the lecture classes.
Speaker 2: Wow, what is the experience level tend to be for
Speaker 2: folks taking your classes? Are there a lot of newcomers?
Speaker 2: Are there academics, people in college and so forth?
Speaker 3: It's really everybody. I even have a genius eleven year
Speaker 3: old who takes the hieroglyphic classes, and it really runs
Speaker 3: from high school students. Occasionally I do get someone who's
Speaker 3: actually studying in a program for a master's or bachelor's
Speaker 3: and just wants a little bit more hieroglyphic experience or
Speaker 3: is particularly interested in a topic them offering as a
Speaker 3: lecture class, say something on magic and religion or not,
Speaker 3: nor the pre dynastic periods, something that they can't get
Speaker 3: as part of their program. So it has actually supplemented
Speaker 3: some people's actual academic coursework. And then just a tremendous
Speaker 3: amount of people adults and they're working, they have kids,
Speaker 3: they want to take Zoom classes, or they're retired. And
Speaker 3: I love it when sisters, where husbands and wives do
Speaker 3: it together. It's a lot of fun. It can become
Speaker 3: a family experience awesome.
Speaker 2: So especially I'm guessing with newcomers and general audience folks,
Speaker 2: what are some of the key preliminary ideas you like
Speaker 2: to stress about ancient Egypt and or the ancient Egyptian
Speaker 2: language when they enter into these classes.
Speaker 3: In terms of the language, the first thing that I
Speaker 3: always have to stress is that no matter how artistic
Speaker 3: each individual hieroglyphic can be, and they truly can be
Speaker 3: miniature works of art, the majority of signs are phonetic
Speaker 3: in usage. So there are signs that are direct representation
Speaker 3: or word signs. There are signs that are classifying signs
Speaker 3: that we called determinatives that have no phonetic value, but
Speaker 3: the majority that you see in a hieroglyphic inscription, are
Speaker 3: going to actually write the sounds of the ancient Egyptian language.
Speaker 3: And what I do in the hieroglyphic classes is take
Speaker 3: people from that very beginning and then build up bit
Speaker 3: by bit by bit. I think sometimes people are a
Speaker 3: little surprised about grammar because you expect Greek and Asia Latin,
Speaker 3: you're gonna have to memorize a lot of grammar, and
Speaker 3: the same is true with the Egyptian although in some
Speaker 3: ways the grammar's a little bit less complex simply because
Speaker 3: of the way the conjugation system works. In terms of
Speaker 3: the lecture classes, something that I try to always stress
Speaker 3: is the ancient Egyptian civilization was not perfect. No civilization
Speaker 3: ever has been or will be. But their ideal was
Speaker 3: something called mot cosmic justice, define balance and order. And
Speaker 3: their sense of mot basically right and wrong, is shockingly
Speaker 3: similar to our own. And so even if they didn't
Speaker 3: live up to that idea, it's really interesting and very important,
Speaker 3: and very rarely emphasized the extent to which the Egyptians
Speaker 3: wanted to follow this moral code and prided themselves, from
Speaker 3: kings all the way down to farmers that they acted
Speaker 3: in a morally upright and compassionate way to both people
Speaker 3: who were in positions of authority. But they also talk
Speaker 3: about giving bread to the hungry, taking care of the
Speaker 3: orphan and the widow. And then because it's ancient Egypt,
Speaker 3: they talk about farrying the boatless person. And there's a
Speaker 3: word boatless that's actually a single word in ancient Egyptian.
Speaker 3: So in terms of the writing, the phonetic aspects, and
Speaker 3: in terms of overall ancient Egyptian civilization, emphasizing something that
Speaker 3: I think the ancient Egyptians themselves would really want us
Speaker 3: to have as the first thing we know when we
Speaker 3: are approaching their history and society and religion.
Speaker 2: Now, I was looking at a book that you co
Speaker 2: wrote with John Coleman Darnell, Egypt's Golden Couple When Natan
Speaker 2: and Nephertidi were gods on Earth explores the impact that
Speaker 2: this ancient power couple had on the Egyptian kingdom. Can
Speaker 2: you give us just a little taste of this? How
Speaker 2: did this couple change the world.
Speaker 3: One of the unusual aspects of the reign of Achnan
Speaker 3: and Efertiti is the extent to which they concentrated political
Speaker 3: religious and economic power in their capital city of ahid
Speaker 3: Aaden and seem to have been directly responsible for the
Speaker 3: mean religious rituals. Where in the tombs even of the
Speaker 3: High Priest of Aten, we don't see the high priest
Speaker 3: doing his day to day activities or directly worshiping the
Speaker 3: Sun God, which is what we would expect both before
Speaker 3: and after the reign of Aughnan and Efertiti. Instead, we
Speaker 3: see the royal family worshiping Aughten and going about their
Speaker 3: day to day lives, which are themselves transposed into this
Speaker 3: ritual setting. What this means then is that not Neverrititi
Speaker 3: have interposed themselves between people and the gods. And while
Speaker 3: a king is supposed to mediate between mankind and the
Speaker 3: celestial realm, it is to facilitate that interaction. People in
Speaker 3: ancient Egypt could make prayers, could address the gods directly,
Speaker 3: even outside temple ritual What's unusual then about Aknan and
Speaker 3: Evertiti is the extent to which they put themselves in
Speaker 3: that role of gods to be worshiped, and then they
Speaker 3: can interact with the ultimate solar deity, who is Atten.
Speaker 2: Now. I love the way that this book opens up
Speaker 2: discussing examples of just very contradictory historical interpretations of Acnaton
Speaker 2: and at his queen Nephrititi. You know, on one hand,
Speaker 2: just a savior that changes the world for the better,
Speaker 2: like almost like a Jesus or Buddha type figure, as
Speaker 2: you discuss, and then on the other hand, views that
Speaker 2: he's an incestuous, twisted monster that brings a reign of terror.
Speaker 2: Why have these two been viewed in such extreme ways
Speaker 2: and where where does the truth seem to lie?
Speaker 3: Some of those extreme perspectives on Acnaton and Evertdy have
Speaker 3: to do with the chronological development of scholarship. So a
Speaker 3: lot of the christ like interpretation of Achnaton is earlier
Speaker 3: in the twentieth century James Henry breasted Arthur Weigel, and
Speaker 3: as you move forward in time, there is an increasingly
Speaker 3: cynical perspective, and I think it had reached at certain
Speaker 3: points a true fever pitch of Achnaton as twisted monster.
Speaker 3: And we diagnose this essentially as a problem with not
Speaker 3: going back to the primary sources, and that when you
Speaker 3: do go back to the primary sources, a lot of
Speaker 3: scholarship still relies on interpretations of earlier Egyptologists. And one
Speaker 3: of the best examples of this, and the longest chapter
Speaker 3: in the book, is there's an inscription from the very
Speaker 3: beginning of within the first five years of Achnaton's Raim,
Speaker 3: where all earlier translations, in every single reference to this
Speaker 3: text was that the gods, the statues of the gods ceased,
Speaker 3: they stopped. But that doesn't make sense. The ancient Egyptians
Speaker 3: know that statues don't move. Now, rituals can stop, statues
Speaker 3: can fall down, but the Egyptians wouldn't expect a statue
Speaker 3: to move, So how could a statue just stop? And
Speaker 3: as it turns out, it's a much more common verb,
Speaker 3: a homophone that means to desire. And what I'm not
Speaker 3: is actually saying is that he's doing what the gods desire. Now,
Speaker 3: ultimately he's only going to do what Aunton desires and
Speaker 3: deny the existence of other gods. But in that particular text,
Speaker 3: he's not yet as radical as he's going to be.
Speaker 3: But because when you're looking at the rain of Aknaton,
Speaker 3: almost everybody looks at him through the perspective of what's
Speaker 3: happening than in their own time. And that's been true
Speaker 3: ever since People have discussed doc mount in ebertity or
Speaker 3: assumptions that have previously been made, and where we thought
Speaker 3: we could really contribute to the scholarship of achnant in
Speaker 3: epertity was re examining every single primary source and questioning
Speaker 3: the exact meaning of every word in order to arrive
Speaker 3: at new conclusions that might have been missed simply because
Speaker 3: of the bias of this is how the word has
Speaker 3: been translated, this is how it must continue to be translated,
Speaker 3: and not thinking, wow, there might be a totally different
Speaker 3: way to view this particular action.
Speaker 2: That's fascinating, But I thought I might might go ahead
Speaker 2: and ask what does the name mean? Ocnoton how do
Speaker 2: we translate this?
Speaker 3: The first word in Achnaton's name is this root ach
Speaker 3: that means luminosity or effectiveness, and those two concepts are
Speaker 3: related in each Egyptian because of the very fact that
Speaker 3: sunlight causes changes, they were well aware of bad effect.
Speaker 3: The next that n actually means four is a preposition,
Speaker 3: and Aten is the name of the god. So if
Speaker 3: we were to break it apart in ancient Egyptian grammatical terms,
Speaker 3: it would be Ah and Aten and the vowels themselves.
Speaker 3: The fact that is ah n auten achnaton rather than
Speaker 3: achna tone with an oh at the end. They didn't
Speaker 3: write the vowels in Egyptian in what sounds like vowels
Speaker 3: when I say ah, for example, that ah is actually
Speaker 3: not a vowel. It's an olive, which is a semi
Speaker 3: vocal consonant, and that that can get a little bit confusing,
Speaker 3: but that's the best sort of approximation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we when we cover ancient Egyptian topics on the
Speaker 2: show here, I feel like I'm always wrestling with exactly
Speaker 2: how I should be saying any any particular name, Like
Speaker 2: even with some of the more well known gods, like
Speaker 2: is it ray? Is it raw? Is there like a
Speaker 2: of agreed upon standards in Egyptology today?
Speaker 3: There isn't, So ray raw. Both are the same in
Speaker 3: terms of how you're gonna see or pronounced the A
Speaker 3: or a is that we say actually comes from an ion.
Speaker 3: So if you're pronouncing the I in correctly, say in Arabic,
Speaker 3: then you're getting a little bit closer to the ancient Egyptian.
Speaker 3: But because that's a sound that doesn't exist in Indo
Speaker 3: European languages, we just fudget and do a vowel. But
Speaker 3: when you're reading hieroglyphs, you not only look at the
Speaker 3: hieroglyphs themselves, but before you get to an English translation,
Speaker 3: we do an extra step, and it's an artificial step.
Speaker 3: It's not something the Anian Egyptians would have done, which
Speaker 3: is called transliteration. So there are actually specific characters. A
Speaker 3: lot of them are just consonants in you know that
Speaker 3: we have R, B, M and those days the same.
Speaker 3: But for these sounds that don't exist, say in English,
Speaker 3: although they do exist in other Afroisiatic languages, there are
Speaker 3: particular characters that you use. So when we're actually looking
Speaker 3: at something written that's mostly agreed upon and consistent, but
Speaker 3: everyone pronounces it a little bit differently, and it doesn't
Speaker 3: because it doesn't affect the clarity of what we're actually saying,
Speaker 3: it tends not to be a big problem.
Speaker 2: Now, as you're also co author in the book Tutan
Speaker 2: Commons Armies, I thought i'd ask a couple of ancient
Speaker 2: military questions. When it comes to the aesthetics often associated
Speaker 2: with ancient Egypt, I've always found that that Kepish sword
Speaker 2: very striking, this kind of long curved sickle like blade,
Speaker 2: I think you know, no matter you know where the
Speaker 2: listener falls into the Egyptology Egypt Domania sort of spectrum.
Speaker 2: I've probably seen some depiction, be it realistic or exaggerated,
Speaker 2: of this, and it may, I guess, be easy to
Speaker 2: just look at it as being like overly stylized. But
Speaker 2: what was the purpose of this design and how is
Speaker 2: it used?
Speaker 3: The ancient Egyptian hepesh sword looks like a sickle, as
Speaker 3: you say, it's it's very striking esthetically, but the cutting
Speaker 3: blade is actually on the outside. This is a weapon
Speaker 3: that we first really see come into common use in
Speaker 3: the New Kingdom. There are several examples buried in the
Speaker 3: tomb of Chion Common, including one smaller one that has
Speaker 3: a sharper blade that might have been used a little
Speaker 3: bit more as when you would use a sword. The other,
Speaker 3: a larger hebesh sword, has more of a chisel white blade.
Speaker 3: It might have been used more like an axe, not
Speaker 3: something that would have had as much slicing power as
Speaker 3: a sword. There are also thinner, rapier type swords that
Speaker 3: were probably used by chariot tears, but those are relatively
Speaker 3: uncommon in the archaeological record.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is I found all this fascinating because I
Speaker 2: guess you know, from like a you know, modern and
Speaker 2: then European perspective, we we we look at these weapons
Speaker 2: and we think about them in terms of tools or
Speaker 2: weapons that we're familiar with, like the sickle or like
Speaker 2: the sword, when the way you describe it, yeah, maybe
Speaker 2: an axe is actually a better comparison to make here.
Speaker 2: Now you mentioned the chariot, I wanted to ask a
Speaker 2: question about the chariot as well, because I feel like
Speaker 2: this is such an icon of ancient Egyptian art and
Speaker 2: certainly you see it in and depictions of ancient Egypt
Speaker 2: be accurate or not. And uh, I often feel like
Speaker 2: this is a technology that we're very far removed from
Speaker 2: in the modern world, you know, like how do we
Speaker 2: how do we look at the chariot and how do
Speaker 2: we appreciate it, you know, in comparison to things like
Speaker 2: maybe a person riding a horse on a modern saddle
Speaker 2: or uh, you know, some manner of kart. Can you
Speaker 2: tell us just a little bit about how important the
Speaker 2: development of the cheir it was to ancient Egyptian warfare.
Speaker 3: The cherio comes into Egypt about sixteen hundred BC and
Speaker 3: domesticated horses, possibly a little bit earlier, so it takes
Speaker 3: quite some time to go from the domestication of the
Speaker 3: horse around four thousand BC on the steps of Kazakhstan
Speaker 3: all the way into the ancient Eies. Horses and chariots
Speaker 3: transform warfare into ancient Egypt. It becomes the third branch
Speaker 3: of the Egyptian military. They had a very well developed
Speaker 3: infantry and navy. And because that adoption of the horse
Speaker 3: around sixteen hundred BC coincides with the expulsion of the
Speaker 3: foreign dynasty ruling over the northern part of Egypt, the
Speaker 3: so called Hixos dynasty, they are expelled around fifteen fifty BC,
Speaker 3: and at that point, with the founding of the New Kingdom,
Speaker 3: the Egyptians make a decision to expand their empire both
Speaker 3: to the north and to the south. They had to
Speaker 3: the south before, but they go even further to the north,
Speaker 3: not only to gain resources and greater access to trading routes,
Speaker 3: but also to have a buffer zone so to prevent
Speaker 3: further foreign conquest. So there's a number of reasons for
Speaker 3: that empire, and the chariot is part of that. The
Speaker 3: big set piece battles of the Bronze Age are battles
Speaker 3: bought between chariots with infantry support. You mentioned how we
Speaker 3: conceptualize ancient battles and ancient weapons through comparisons with what
Speaker 3: we know, right, and sometimes you will read I don't
Speaker 3: think this happens as much anymore, but that the chariot
Speaker 3: was like the tank of the ancient world. And that's
Speaker 3: not true at all, because horses do not like to
Speaker 3: crash into one another, nor will they run in charge
Speaker 3: into infantry, and certainly you don't want to do that
Speaker 3: with the chariot because chariots were very expensive. That's another
Speaker 3: interesting aspect of the move towards chariot work in the
Speaker 3: Bronze is it's a warfare for highly developed and wealthy
Speaker 3: civilizations because you have to be able to invest in
Speaker 3: the horses themselves, the pasturage, the training facilities, training the
Speaker 3: crews building the chariots. They were the really advanced vehicles,
Speaker 3: advanced technology of the dead. And the use of a
Speaker 3: chariot in battle is as a mobile archers platform. So
Speaker 3: there are other civilizations, for example, the hit Heights who
Speaker 3: fight against the Egyptians at this famous Battle of Kotash
Speaker 3: during the reign of Ramsey's The second, the hit Heights
Speaker 3: view the chariot, or have outfitted their chariots with three people,
Speaker 3: essentially more like mobile infantry and moving people from one
Speaker 3: place to another and then fighting more as ground troops.
Speaker 3: The classic Egyptian chariot, which was much lighter, you could
Speaker 3: carry it a single person and could carry the cab
Speaker 3: of the chariot. It's remarkable, And with the archers inside
Speaker 3: the cab and then one person driving, you could essentially
Speaker 3: deliver projectiles all across the front of the opposing force
Speaker 3: and then circle back around and then the infantry could
Speaker 3: be brought in.
Speaker 2: Wow. So it sounds like if one were too roughly
Speaker 2: compare it to some piece of modern military technology, it
Speaker 2: would actually maybe be more accurate to compare it to say,
Speaker 2: like a jet fighter or something, or obviously not in
Speaker 2: the air, but more of a certainly a ground attack scenario.
Speaker 2: But in terms of being something expensive, mobile and arranged
Speaker 2: in nature.
Speaker 3: I like that comparison.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Yeah, you've given me a whole new
Speaker 2: way to think about the chariot here. Now, a number
Speaker 2: of our listeners here in Stuff to Blow your Mind
Speaker 2: are film fans, and I was excited to see that
Speaker 2: you have conducted zoom classes on ancient Egypt as depicted
Speaker 2: in film. So I have a couple of questions about this,
Speaker 2: starting certainly more on the Egypt Domania side of things.
Speaker 2: Do you have a particular guilty pleasure from Egypt Domania cinema?
Speaker 3: I do like some movies set in ancient Egypt, although
Speaker 3: I would say less guilty pleasure, only because the ancient
Speaker 3: Egyptians themselves cast their history in entertaining fictional terms. In
Speaker 3: a book I wrote in twenty thirteen called Imagining the Past,
Speaker 3: I identified four works of ancient Egyptian historical fiction, meaning
Speaker 3: they actually wrote the fiction set three hundred years for example,
Speaker 3: Rain of Ramsey's the second about twelve fifty, and then
Speaker 3: they're setting something three hundred years, two or three hundred
Speaker 3: years earlier. I think the at Egyptians would appreciate, at
Speaker 3: least that people are trying now some of those details. Yes,
Speaker 3: very annoying, and that's actually one of the reasons why
Speaker 3: I decided to teach the class is not so much
Speaker 3: enjoying all the movies, but using them as a jumping
Speaker 3: off point, because the visual nature, the dialogue, the sets,
Speaker 3: the characters, everything about that gives you a starting point
Speaker 3: for them saying, Okay, what about this is accurate? What
Speaker 3: about this is based on something but has been manipulated
Speaker 3: in a way that actually works to support the story
Speaker 3: and doesn't go against generally what we know about ancient
Speaker 3: Egypt And where is it just flat out wrong and
Speaker 3: they should have never done it. So that was that
Speaker 3: was how I approached the class. And the ancient Egyptian
Speaker 3: film was so much fun to prepare. We did mummy movies,
Speaker 3: we did epics so Cleopatra, Tank Commandments, and then some
Speaker 3: movies that are much less well known, such as the
Speaker 3: Polish film Pharaoh, which is by far the best in
Speaker 3: terms of costumes and sets. Costumes especially, it's incredible and
Speaker 3: those were designed by an Egyptian costume set designer and
Speaker 3: director named Shadi Afto Salam. And so I highly recommend
Speaker 3: the Polish film Pharaoh.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, this is so this is from nineteen sixty six. Yes, excellent. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I have not seen this, but this looks this looks remarkable.
Speaker 2: Now I'm a film that I know that you're a
Speaker 2: fan of. I wanted to ask about as well, because
Speaker 2: I was not familiar with this. I have to admit
Speaker 2: to my own inexperience with Egyptian cinema as an actual
Speaker 2: Egyptian cinema. Yeah, I was very interested in mentioned of
Speaker 2: this nineteen sixty nine film, The Night of Counting the Years.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about this film
Speaker 2: and why it's important.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. It's also called The Mummy, so a couple of
Speaker 3: different titles there, and it was directed by Shadi aftal Salam,
Speaker 3: the same man who did the costume signs for Pharaoh,
Speaker 3: and he also did some costume designs for Cleopatra for
Speaker 3: the Great Makowitz disaster, that is Cleopatra, although sadly many
Speaker 3: of them were not incorporated as much as they should
Speaker 3: have been into the movie. Night of Counting the Years
Speaker 3: is a fictionalized version of what happened in the eighteen
Speaker 3: eighties with an Egyptian family living on the west bank
Speaker 3: of Luksor called the Abbetol Russuls, and they had found
Speaker 3: a royal cache, so not just a single royal tomb,
Speaker 3: but a place where dozens of mummies from the New
Speaker 3: Kingdom in early third Interviewedia period had been re ramped
Speaker 3: and then cashed put into a single burial which is
Speaker 3: a little bit to the south of the Temple of
Speaker 3: Hotch episode at darl Bahri and John and I actually
Speaker 3: got to go down there. It's not open to the public.
Speaker 3: It had not been opened, i think for fifteen years.
Speaker 3: They knocked away the concrete and we got to go
Speaker 3: down there to film an episode of Lost Treasures of Egypt.
Speaker 3: It was one of my favorite experiences. So it's absolutely
Speaker 3: it's based on a real event, although the names are
Speaker 3: changed in Shadi albal Salam's movie. And the Egyptologists, the
Speaker 3: French Egyptologists who were in charge of the antiquity service
Speaker 3: at the time, had realized that this was going on,
Speaker 3: that some royal toom have been found because various antiquities
Speaker 3: were popping up on the market, and two of the
Speaker 3: brothers turned on one another and that's how everything was
Speaker 3: found out. And then the material was taken in much
Speaker 3: haste from Luxor to the Chiro Museum the Bulock Museum
Speaker 3: in Cairo at the time, and that was news all
Speaker 3: over the world, very very dramatic, and the mummies ended
Speaker 3: up being the mummies of the New Kingdom pharaohs. So
Speaker 3: those are the mummies that you can see now beautifully
Speaker 3: displayed in the National Museum of Egyptian civilization through the
Speaker 3: movie Night of County in the Years then, Shadiy Alvdala
Speaker 3: Salam uses this movie as a commentary on the view
Speaker 3: of the past by the present and doing this through
Speaker 3: the lens of neorealism. The other part that I really
Speaker 3: loved about this movie in the context of my Ancient
Speaker 3: Egyptian film class, is that there were ancient Egyptian tomb
Speaker 3: robbers that actually moved the mummies from their original burials
Speaker 3: into this cash it's called the Deerro Bahri cash. And
Speaker 3: those tomb robbers weren't working just on their own for
Speaker 3: their own profit. They were actually sponsored by the Paronic government.
Speaker 3: At the end of the New Kingdom, the Varonic government,
Speaker 3: the king lost control over Nubia. There was a revolt
Speaker 3: by a Nubian general named pana Hesse, and because of that,
Speaker 3: Egypt lost control over the main gold mining regions and
Speaker 3: they needed the gold. There was an economic crisis at
Speaker 3: the time, and realized that there was lots of gold
Speaker 3: to be had in the Valley of the Kings. And
Speaker 3: so we know the names of the ancient tomb robbers.
Speaker 3: We have their letters, three thousand year old letters talking
Speaker 3: about keeping their activities private because even though they were
Speaker 3: state sponsored, they still didn't want everybody else in their
Speaker 3: village to know what was going on. So it's this
Speaker 3: murder mystery scandal, and it's their actual letters. It just
Speaker 3: blows my mind. We even have one of the men's
Speaker 3: houses in a temple. It's a man named Bhutahamen. So
Speaker 3: the story both of what actually happened in the eighteen
Speaker 3: eighties with the discovery of the cash and the story
Speaker 3: from three thousand years previously with how the mummies made
Speaker 3: it there is incredible.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, So the Night of counting the Years? Would
Speaker 2: you frame it as a neo realistic drama like an
Speaker 2: art house drama? A certainly not? To be clear, even
Speaker 2: though it is sometimes titled the Mummy, is this has
Speaker 2: nothing to do with the supernatural Mummy films?
Speaker 3: Correct? So it is. It is absolutely a drama about
Speaker 3: that family and about the relationships between the brothers and
Speaker 3: also coming to terms with the moral implications of robbing
Speaker 3: ancient tubes. The mummy in the title. The term mummy
Speaker 3: in the title references the ancient mummies that are then
Speaker 3: being used for modern profit for the family.
Speaker 2: And there is a.
Speaker 3: Murder and so it's all of this family drama but
Speaker 3: shot in just a beautiful, beautiful way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll have to check this one out. I think
Speaker 2: in the past it's been featured on the Criterion Channel,
Speaker 2: but I'll have to hunt around to see where I can.
Speaker 2: I can find it today now, serious Egyptology and entertaining
Speaker 2: Egypt Domania share a history of a foreign interpretation in
Speaker 2: both time and space, as well as legacies obviously of
Speaker 2: conquest and colonialism. Where do you feel like we are
Speaker 2: today in terms of international fascination with and study of
Speaker 2: the ancient Egyptian world? What has changed and what still
Speaker 2: needs to change?
Speaker 3: It is amazing to see the new museum, the Grand
Speaker 3: Egyptian Museum, which will be opening by the end of
Speaker 3: this year, becoming an international sensation, the largest museum in
Speaker 3: the world dedicated to a single civilization. Half of it,
Speaker 3: a little less than half of it, is already open.
Speaker 3: The Grand Staircase set in this dramatic architectural setting. When
Speaker 3: you come up to the second floor, you have one
Speaker 3: of the most beautiful vistas of the Giza Pyramids, and
Speaker 3: then three entire galleries that takes you through from the
Speaker 3: pre Dynastic period all the way to the Roman era,
Speaker 3: but in three different tracks, so you can look at
Speaker 3: daily life, you can look at religion, and then the
Speaker 3: king and the political system. And I just I think
Speaker 3: that is so brilliant because you can go across them
Speaker 3: then and look at all three features in the pre
Speaker 3: Dynastic period or in the Middle Kingdom, or you can
Speaker 3: essentially go through the chronology of Egypt three different times.
Speaker 3: So even before the two oncomon material is open and
Speaker 3: again that should be the last quarter of the years
Speaker 3: is where it's been announced. It is something that is
Speaker 3: beautiful and such an amazing presentation of ancient Egyptian cultural
Speaker 3: heritage and history. The Tahariir Museum, the Egyptian Museum at
Speaker 3: Taker Square is also should absolutely still be on everybody's
Speaker 3: muscy list. Some of the most famous artifacts from ancient Egypt,
Speaker 3: the normal talent, the burials of YuYu and Tuyas with
Speaker 3: the gold from the Tanis tombs are still on display.
Speaker 3: So what I love about fascination with Egypt as it
Speaker 3: then is bringing more and more people to Egypt, and
Speaker 3: I love that trend, and I love trying to be
Speaker 3: just a little bit of a part of that trend.
Speaker 3: Knowing so many people who have been in my classes
Speaker 3: have then gone to Egypt and seen all of this firsthand.
Speaker 3: But there are more sites being opened every year, and
Speaker 3: really exciting places and tombs as well as these new museums.
Speaker 3: And in terms of what needs to change, I think
Speaker 3: it is the public fascination often with things that are
Speaker 3: entirely unfounded in facts, and in terms of who constructed
Speaker 3: the pyramids, how they constructed the pyramids, the date of
Speaker 3: the sphinx. We could go on and on, but that
Speaker 3: I think is the thing about the fascination with ancient
Speaker 3: Egypt that most needs to change is the primary sources.
Speaker 3: And I think the story I told just now about
Speaker 3: ancient tim rubbers, that's way more exciting than anything that
Speaker 3: is made up. So getting out there the actual information
Speaker 3: that is so much more unbelievable in some ways than
Speaker 3: just imagining, well, people couldn't have built the pyramids, but
Speaker 3: this much must have happened, even though we have not
Speaker 3: only the names of the people who build the pyramids,
Speaker 3: the barracks of the people who built the pyramids, and
Speaker 3: on other pyramids and temples, the remains of mud brick ramps,
Speaker 3: which tells us exactly how they built the pyramids, and
Speaker 3: a papyrus journal found a little over a decade ago
Speaker 3: by a French Egyptologist that is actually a diary of
Speaker 3: the man who brought some of the stones that were
Speaker 3: the last to put on the top of the Great Pyramid.
Speaker 2: Okay, as we're reaching the end of the interview, I
Speaker 2: have to ask a couple of vintage clothing questions, because
Speaker 2: you are, of course per Instagram the vintage Egyptologists. A
Speaker 2: lot of listeners know you from that Instagram account, Vintage Egyptologists,
Speaker 2: Vintage Underscore Egyptologists. Could you tell us how your passions
Speaker 2: for vintage clothing and ancient Egypt live together on the feed.
Speaker 3: I love being able to put vintage fashion and ancient
Speaker 3: Egypt together because it helps not only me get doing
Speaker 3: express it two of my main passions in both topics,
Speaker 3: but also use the visual medium of Instagram as well
Speaker 3: as the general interest in fashion to present a lot
Speaker 3: of details about ancient Egypt. And I can do that
Speaker 3: both through my reels where I'm actually explaining hieroglyphs and
Speaker 3: talking about an ancient Egyptian topic very specifically, or use
Speaker 3: the visuals of a particular item of vintage fashion, whether
Speaker 3: it be in nineteen thirties evening down or in eighteen
Speaker 3: fifteen Empire style dress, and then discuss how this might
Speaker 3: relate to ancient Egyptian fashion or just a jumping off
Speaker 3: point for another topic. My interest in vintage fashion actually
Speaker 3: comes from a little bit different place than my interest
Speaker 3: in ancient egypt And it's a coincidence that my favorite
Speaker 3: silhouette happens to be the same decade that the tumor
Speaker 3: common was discovered. Through vintage fashion and collecting, that's also
Speaker 3: given me new perspectives on studying ancient Egyptian fashion and clothing.
Speaker 3: And I'm in the process of doing some additional work
Speaker 3: on how there might be an interaction between the way
Speaker 3: fabrics are used, for example in the nineteen thirties, and
Speaker 3: how that might inform the way a single rectangular piece
Speaker 3: of cloth could be wrapped around the body and maybe
Speaker 3: have a different silhouette than is often imagined.
Speaker 2: And how about in the field do do vintage fabrics
Speaker 2: hold up well if you were a say, you know,
Speaker 2: exploring a tomb or out in a desert environment, out
Speaker 2: in the field.
Speaker 3: I wear the vintage clothing I wear in the field
Speaker 3: are typically seventies, eighties, nineties khakis and tons, and I
Speaker 3: mean every now and then it'll be something new, but
Speaker 3: pretty much for that it's used clothes out in the field.
Speaker 3: And where in attention to vintage makes a difference is
Speaker 3: just being able to check absolutely certain that what you
Speaker 3: were wearing is one hundred percent conton because even two
Speaker 3: percent of an artificial fiber in one hundred and twenty
Speaker 3: degree heat makes a huge difference. So looking for those
Speaker 3: older fabrics can be really important, But what's mostly about
Speaker 3: is just the composition of the fabric and that it
Speaker 3: has to be one hundred percent cotton. Linen is also
Speaker 3: pretty cool, but cotton cotton is always the best and
Speaker 3: light colored fabrics, so that that's the connection with the feel.
Speaker 3: But otherwise it's used clothes, not vintage clothes for the
Speaker 3: archeological work.
Speaker 2: All right, I want to zoom back out and ask
Speaker 2: a broader question here. I've been asking about Egyptomania, serious
Speaker 2: interest in ancient Egypt. I feel like all of the
Speaker 2: sesuss at one point or another, Like you know, maybe
Speaker 2: we watch a Mummy movie when we're a kid, but
Speaker 2: then that leads to a more serious interest in ancient
Speaker 2: Egyptian topics. So when did any of this sees you
Speaker 2: for the first time, and how did you decide to
Speaker 2: pursue Egyptology as your profession.
Speaker 3: I've been interested in ancient Egypt ever since I was
Speaker 3: a child. I know that's a really common phenomenon, a
Speaker 3: little less common to pursue it professionally. It was really
Speaker 3: from reading books, and a lot of it was looking
Speaker 3: at images of hieroglyphs and really wanting to be able
Speaker 3: to read them. So that was that was the driving passion,
Speaker 3: was wanting to read hieroglyphs, wanting to read the cursive
Speaker 3: version on the virus hiratic and I have been so
Speaker 3: lucky to be able to do that and pursue it.
Speaker 3: And I decided to pursue it professionally when before I
Speaker 3: applied to Yale University and then going for my bachelor's
Speaker 3: and my PhD. And it's been amazing then getting to
Speaker 3: not only have taught in a university environment, but also
Speaker 3: now to be able to take that love of teaching
Speaker 3: and people's love of learning and do it in such
Speaker 3: a pure way where there aren't any grades, there isn't
Speaker 3: any pressure, and you just get to have fun. And learn,
Speaker 3: and I love that about my zoom classes and what
Speaker 3: I'm able to do now.
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of your zoom classes, for listeners who are
Speaker 2: interested in these, who want to learn more about Ancient
Speaker 2: Egypt and hieroglyphs in the Ancient Egyptian religion, among other topics,
Speaker 2: where can they learn more? Where can they find more
Speaker 2: information about these classes?
Speaker 3: Can find me on Instagram as you mentioned before, at
Speaker 3: Vintage Underscore Egyptologists, and my website call lead Darnell dot com,
Speaker 3: which is where I put up information about my classes,
Speaker 3: and you can subscribe to my newsletter and be the
Speaker 3: first to find out. And I am excited to announce
Speaker 3: that in September I will be doing a news section
Speaker 3: of how to Read Hieroglyphs Unit one, and that is
Speaker 3: a five hour class. It meets one hour a week
Speaker 3: for five weeks and it goes from the very basics
Speaker 3: of how to read hieroglyphs all the way to being
Speaker 3: able to read a funerary formula so that even if
Speaker 3: you only do five hours of Ancient Egyptian, you can
Speaker 3: make an Ancient Egyptian spirit happy. I mean, yeah, I
Speaker 3: teach everyone enough hieroglyphs so obviously, and then you can continue.
Speaker 3: I have students who have been doing this for one year,
Speaker 3: two years, all the way from the beginning of four
Speaker 3: years ago, and they can read entire literary texts not
Speaker 3: only in hieroglyphs, and religious texts not only in hieroglyphs,
Speaker 3: but directly from pup hyarate. So it's not like you
Speaker 3: just do a couple things and then oh, there's nothing
Speaker 3: more to move on to you. Really it's a serious program,
Speaker 3: and when you get to the upper levels, it's the
Speaker 3: same sort of work you would be doing in a
Speaker 3: university setting. In terms of lecture classes. For those people
Speaker 3: who don't want to dive into or necessarily learn a
Speaker 3: new language, the lecture classes don't require any previous knowledge.
Speaker 3: And the next one coming up is going to be
Speaker 3: on demons and exorcism and magical practices, which will be
Speaker 3: a lot of fun, and we'll be reading some direct
Speaker 3: ancient Egyptian spells and talking about what a demon really
Speaker 3: is in Ansian Egypt because it might not be what
Speaker 3: everybody thinks.
Speaker 2: Oh well, I know that we have listeners that are
Speaker 2: going to be very interested in that. Well, excellent Collen,
Speaker 2: thanks for coming on the show. With me today, taking
Speaker 2: time out of your day to chat about Ancient Egypt,
Speaker 2: hiweraglyphs and all of these exciting opportunities.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed
Speaker 3: this conversation.
Speaker 2: Thanks again to doctor Colleen Darnell for taking time out
Speaker 2: of her day to chat with me. This one is
Speaker 2: a real treat again. You can follow her on Instagram
Speaker 2: at Vintage Underscore Egyptologist and learn more about her classes
Speaker 2: and books at her website Colleen Darnell dot com. Oh hey,
Speaker 2: and I have one more thing to add here. In
Speaker 2: post production, Colleen asked that we passed this along. If
Speaker 2: you've ever wondered what is fact and what is fiction
Speaker 2: about Indiana Jones and his quest for the Arc of
Speaker 2: the Covenant, well you can tune into her ninety minute
Speaker 2: webinar Ancient Egypt at the Movies Indiana Jones. This is
Speaker 2: going to meet live on Zoom on Thursday, August twenty first,
Speaker 2: from two to three thirty pm and eight to nine
Speaker 2: thirty pm US Eastern Time. It's going to be a
Speaker 2: vividly illustrated presentation. She's going to introduce you to the
Speaker 2: first recorded Egyptian archaeologist, real ancient tomb robbers and the
Speaker 2: intact royal tombs that were found at Tennis So it
Speaker 2: sounds like a good time. You can find out more
Speaker 2: about that at her website. Just your reminder to everyone
Speaker 2: out there that's Stuff to Blow your Mind is primarily
Speaker 2: a science and culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays
Speaker 2: and Thursdays wherever you get your podcasts. On Fridays, we
Speaker 2: also set aside most serious matters to discuss a weird
Speaker 2: film on Weird House Cinema. Thanks as always to the
Speaker 2: excellent JJ Possway for producing the show, and if you'd
Speaker 2: like to get in touch with us, drop us a
Speaker 2: line at contact at stuff to blow your Mind dot com.
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For
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