1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 3 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 2: name is Robert Lammon. Today I'm chatting with Egyptologist doctor 4 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 2: Colleen Darnell, author and co author of multiple books on 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 2: ancient Egypt, who many of you may know from her 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 2: Vintage Egyptologist Instagram account that's vintage underscore Egyptologist, and her 7 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: popular Zoom classes on various Egyptology topics. So about further ado, 8 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 2: Let's jump right into the interview. Hi, Colleen, welcome to 9 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 2: the show. 10 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 3: Hello, I'm so happy to be here. 11 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 2: A lot of your work, you know, I'm thinking about 12 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 2: your excellent Instagram feeds, but also your Zoom classes. This 13 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: work is aimed at making learning about hieroglyphics and ancient 14 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 2: Egypt more accessible. How did these projects come together and 15 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: how's it going. 16 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 3: I have always felt like one of my main goals 17 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 3: as an academic is to take all of my research, 18 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 3: to take the scholarship that has been done in Egyptology 19 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 3: for well over one hundred years and make it something 20 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 3: that people can understand, while at the same time not 21 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 3: leaving off the nuance. I feel like a lot of 22 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 3: times things get oversimplified, and I don't think that's fair either. 23 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 3: So I've been very lucky through Instagram and just because 24 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 3: I was on a lot of documentaries before, to be 25 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 3: a part of Lost Treasures of Ancient Egypt on the 26 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 3: Natio Channel and a lot of other documentaries, and with 27 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 3: the lockdowns and COVID, I started a Zoom Egyptology program 28 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 3: teaching how to read hieroglyphs in twenty twenty one. I 29 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 3: have been doing that ever since and the program has 30 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 3: grown tremendously. Hundreds of people from twenty countries have taken 31 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 3: hieroglyphic courses and even more the lecture classes. 32 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 2: Wow, what is the experience level tend to be for 33 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 2: folks taking your classes? Are there a lot of newcomers? 34 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 2: Are there academics, people in college and so forth? 35 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 3: It's really everybody. I even have a genius eleven year 36 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 3: old who takes the hieroglyphic classes, and it really runs 37 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 3: from high school students. Occasionally I do get someone who's 38 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:30,119 Speaker 3: actually studying in a program for a master's or bachelor's 39 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 3: and just wants a little bit more hieroglyphic experience or 40 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,679 Speaker 3: is particularly interested in a topic them offering as a 41 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 3: lecture class, say something on magic and religion or not, 42 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 3: nor the pre dynastic periods, something that they can't get 43 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 3: as part of their program. So it has actually supplemented 44 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 3: some people's actual academic coursework. And then just a tremendous 45 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 3: amount of people adults and they're working, they have kids, 46 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 3: they want to take Zoom classes, or they're retired. And 47 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 3: I love it when sisters, where husbands and wives do 48 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 3: it together. It's a lot of fun. It can become 49 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 3: a family experience awesome. 50 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 2: So especially I'm guessing with newcomers and general audience folks, 51 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 2: what are some of the key preliminary ideas you like 52 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 2: to stress about ancient Egypt and or the ancient Egyptian 53 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 2: language when they enter into these classes. 54 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 3: In terms of the language, the first thing that I 55 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 3: always have to stress is that no matter how artistic 56 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 3: each individual hieroglyphic can be, and they truly can be 57 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 3: miniature works of art, the majority of signs are phonetic 58 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 3: in usage. So there are signs that are direct representation 59 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 3: or word signs. There are signs that are classifying signs 60 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 3: that we called determinatives that have no phonetic value, but 61 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 3: the majority that you see in a hieroglyphic inscription, are 62 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 3: going to actually write the sounds of the ancient Egyptian language. 63 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 3: And what I do in the hieroglyphic classes is take 64 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 3: people from that very beginning and then build up bit 65 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 3: by bit by bit. I think sometimes people are a 66 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 3: little surprised about grammar because you expect Greek and Asia Latin, 67 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 3: you're gonna have to memorize a lot of grammar, and 68 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 3: the same is true with the Egyptian although in some 69 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 3: ways the grammar's a little bit less complex simply because 70 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 3: of the way the conjugation system works. In terms of 71 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 3: the lecture classes, something that I try to always stress 72 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 3: is the ancient Egyptian civilization was not perfect. No civilization 73 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 3: ever has been or will be. But their ideal was 74 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 3: something called mot cosmic justice, define balance and order. And 75 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 3: their sense of mot basically right and wrong, is shockingly 76 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 3: similar to our own. And so even if they didn't 77 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 3: live up to that idea, it's really interesting and very important, 78 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 3: and very rarely emphasized the extent to which the Egyptians 79 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 3: wanted to follow this moral code and prided themselves, from 80 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 3: kings all the way down to farmers that they acted 81 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 3: in a morally upright and compassionate way to both people 82 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 3: who were in positions of authority. But they also talk 83 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 3: about giving bread to the hungry, taking care of the 84 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 3: orphan and the widow. And then because it's ancient Egypt, 85 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 3: they talk about farrying the boatless person. And there's a 86 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 3: word boatless that's actually a single word in ancient Egyptian. 87 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 3: So in terms of the writing, the phonetic aspects, and 88 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 3: in terms of overall ancient Egyptian civilization, emphasizing something that 89 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 3: I think the ancient Egyptians themselves would really want us 90 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 3: to have as the first thing we know when we 91 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 3: are approaching their history and society and religion. 92 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 2: Now, I was looking at a book that you co 93 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 2: wrote with John Coleman Darnell, Egypt's Golden Couple When Natan 94 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 2: and Nephertidi were gods on Earth explores the impact that 95 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 2: this ancient power couple had on the Egyptian kingdom. Can 96 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 2: you give us just a little taste of this? How 97 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 2: did this couple change the world. 98 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 3: One of the unusual aspects of the reign of Achnan 99 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 3: and Efertiti is the extent to which they concentrated political 100 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 3: religious and economic power in their capital city of ahid 101 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 3: Aaden and seem to have been directly responsible for the 102 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 3: mean religious rituals. Where in the tombs even of the 103 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 3: High Priest of Aten, we don't see the high priest 104 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 3: doing his day to day activities or directly worshiping the 105 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 3: Sun God, which is what we would expect both before 106 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 3: and after the reign of Aughnan and Efertiti. Instead, we 107 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 3: see the royal family worshiping Aughten and going about their 108 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 3: day to day lives, which are themselves transposed into this 109 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 3: ritual setting. What this means then is that not Neverrititi 110 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 3: have interposed themselves between people and the gods. And while 111 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 3: a king is supposed to mediate between mankind and the 112 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 3: celestial realm, it is to facilitate that interaction. People in 113 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 3: ancient Egypt could make prayers, could address the gods directly, 114 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 3: even outside temple ritual What's unusual then about Aknan and 115 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 3: Evertiti is the extent to which they put themselves in 116 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 3: that role of gods to be worshiped, and then they 117 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 3: can interact with the ultimate solar deity, who is Atten. 118 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 2: Now. I love the way that this book opens up 119 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 2: discussing examples of just very contradictory historical interpretations of Acnaton 120 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 2: and at his queen Nephrititi. You know, on one hand, 121 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: just a savior that changes the world for the better, 122 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 2: like almost like a Jesus or Buddha type figure, as 123 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 2: you discuss, and then on the other hand, views that 124 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: he's an incestuous, twisted monster that brings a reign of terror. 125 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 2: Why have these two been viewed in such extreme ways 126 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: and where where does the truth seem to lie? 127 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 3: Some of those extreme perspectives on Acnaton and Evertdy have 128 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 3: to do with the chronological development of scholarship. So a 129 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 3: lot of the christ like interpretation of Achnaton is earlier 130 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 3: in the twentieth century James Henry breasted Arthur Weigel, and 131 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 3: as you move forward in time, there is an increasingly 132 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 3: cynical perspective, and I think it had reached at certain 133 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 3: points a true fever pitch of Achnaton as twisted monster. 134 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 3: And we diagnose this essentially as a problem with not 135 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 3: going back to the primary sources, and that when you 136 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 3: do go back to the primary sources, a lot of 137 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 3: scholarship still relies on interpretations of earlier Egyptologists. And one 138 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 3: of the best examples of this, and the longest chapter 139 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 3: in the book, is there's an inscription from the very 140 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 3: beginning of within the first five years of Achnaton's Raim, 141 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 3: where all earlier translations, in every single reference to this 142 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 3: text was that the gods, the statues of the gods ceased, 143 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,479 Speaker 3: they stopped. But that doesn't make sense. The ancient Egyptians 144 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:18,359 Speaker 3: know that statues don't move. Now, rituals can stop, statues 145 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 3: can fall down, but the Egyptians wouldn't expect a statue 146 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 3: to move, So how could a statue just stop? And 147 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 3: as it turns out, it's a much more common verb, 148 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 3: a homophone that means to desire. And what I'm not 149 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 3: is actually saying is that he's doing what the gods desire. Now, 150 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 3: ultimately he's only going to do what Aunton desires and 151 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 3: deny the existence of other gods. But in that particular text, 152 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 3: he's not yet as radical as he's going to be. 153 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 3: But because when you're looking at the rain of Aknaton, 154 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 3: almost everybody looks at him through the perspective of what's 155 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 3: happening than in their own time. And that's been true 156 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,839 Speaker 3: ever since People have discussed doc mount in ebertity or 157 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 3: assumptions that have previously been made, and where we thought 158 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 3: we could really contribute to the scholarship of achnant in 159 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 3: epertity was re examining every single primary source and questioning 160 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 3: the exact meaning of every word in order to arrive 161 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 3: at new conclusions that might have been missed simply because 162 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 3: of the bias of this is how the word has 163 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 3: been translated, this is how it must continue to be translated, 164 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 3: and not thinking, wow, there might be a totally different 165 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 3: way to view this particular action. 166 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: That's fascinating, But I thought I might might go ahead 167 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 2: and ask what does the name mean? Ocnoton how do 168 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 2: we translate this? 169 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 3: The first word in Achnaton's name is this root ach 170 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 3: that means luminosity or effectiveness, and those two concepts are 171 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 3: related in each Egyptian because of the very fact that 172 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 3: sunlight causes changes, they were well aware of bad effect. 173 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,599 Speaker 3: The next that n actually means four is a preposition, 174 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 3: and Aten is the name of the god. So if 175 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 3: we were to break it apart in ancient Egyptian grammatical terms, 176 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 3: it would be Ah and Aten and the vowels themselves. 177 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 3: The fact that is ah n auten achnaton rather than 178 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 3: achna tone with an oh at the end. They didn't 179 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 3: write the vowels in Egyptian in what sounds like vowels 180 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 3: when I say ah, for example, that ah is actually 181 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 3: not a vowel. It's an olive, which is a semi 182 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 3: vocal consonant, and that that can get a little bit confusing, 183 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 3: but that's the best sort of approximation. 184 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, we when we cover ancient Egyptian topics on the 185 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 2: show here, I feel like I'm always wrestling with exactly 186 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 2: how I should be saying any any particular name, Like 187 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 2: even with some of the more well known gods, like 188 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 2: is it ray? Is it raw? Is there like a 189 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 2: of agreed upon standards in Egyptology today? 190 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 3: There isn't, So ray raw. Both are the same in 191 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 3: terms of how you're gonna see or pronounced the A 192 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 3: or a is that we say actually comes from an ion. 193 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 3: So if you're pronouncing the I in correctly, say in Arabic, 194 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,959 Speaker 3: then you're getting a little bit closer to the ancient Egyptian. 195 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 3: But because that's a sound that doesn't exist in Indo 196 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 3: European languages, we just fudget and do a vowel. But 197 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,679 Speaker 3: when you're reading hieroglyphs, you not only look at the 198 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 3: hieroglyphs themselves, but before you get to an English translation, 199 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 3: we do an extra step, and it's an artificial step. 200 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 3: It's not something the Anian Egyptians would have done, which 201 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 3: is called transliteration. So there are actually specific characters. A 202 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 3: lot of them are just consonants in you know that 203 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,959 Speaker 3: we have R, B, M and those days the same. 204 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 3: But for these sounds that don't exist, say in English, 205 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 3: although they do exist in other Afroisiatic languages, there are 206 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 3: particular characters that you use. So when we're actually looking 207 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 3: at something written that's mostly agreed upon and consistent, but 208 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 3: everyone pronounces it a little bit differently, and it doesn't 209 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:22,079 Speaker 3: because it doesn't affect the clarity of what we're actually saying, 210 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 3: it tends not to be a big problem. 211 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 2: Now, as you're also co author in the book Tutan 212 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 2: Commons Armies, I thought i'd ask a couple of ancient 213 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 2: military questions. When it comes to the aesthetics often associated 214 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 2: with ancient Egypt, I've always found that that Kepish sword 215 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:52,079 Speaker 2: very striking, this kind of long curved sickle like blade, 216 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 2: I think you know, no matter you know where the 217 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 2: listener falls into the Egyptology Egypt Domania sort of spectrum. 218 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 2: I've probably seen some depiction, be it realistic or exaggerated, 219 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 2: of this, and it may, I guess, be easy to 220 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 2: just look at it as being like overly stylized. But 221 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 2: what was the purpose of this design and how is 222 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 2: it used? 223 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 3: The ancient Egyptian hepesh sword looks like a sickle, as 224 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 3: you say, it's it's very striking esthetically, but the cutting 225 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 3: blade is actually on the outside. This is a weapon 226 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 3: that we first really see come into common use in 227 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 3: the New Kingdom. There are several examples buried in the 228 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 3: tomb of Chion Common, including one smaller one that has 229 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 3: a sharper blade that might have been used a little 230 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 3: bit more as when you would use a sword. The other, 231 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 3: a larger hebesh sword, has more of a chisel white blade. 232 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 3: It might have been used more like an axe, not 233 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 3: something that would have had as much slicing power as 234 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 3: a sword. There are also thinner, rapier type swords that 235 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 3: were probably used by chariot tears, but those are relatively 236 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 3: uncommon in the archaeological record. 237 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is I found all this fascinating because I 238 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 2: guess you know, from like a you know, modern and 239 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: then European perspective, we we we look at these weapons 240 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 2: and we think about them in terms of tools or 241 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 2: weapons that we're familiar with, like the sickle or like 242 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 2: the sword, when the way you describe it, yeah, maybe 243 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 2: an axe is actually a better comparison to make here. 244 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 2: Now you mentioned the chariot, I wanted to ask a 245 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 2: question about the chariot as well, because I feel like 246 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 2: this is such an icon of ancient Egyptian art and 247 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 2: certainly you see it in and depictions of ancient Egypt 248 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 2: be accurate or not. And uh, I often feel like 249 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 2: this is a technology that we're very far removed from 250 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 2: in the modern world, you know, like how do we 251 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: how do we look at the chariot and how do 252 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 2: we appreciate it, you know, in comparison to things like 253 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 2: maybe a person riding a horse on a modern saddle 254 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 2: or uh, you know, some manner of kart. Can you 255 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: tell us just a little bit about how important the 256 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 2: development of the cheir it was to ancient Egyptian warfare. 257 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 3: The cherio comes into Egypt about sixteen hundred BC and 258 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 3: domesticated horses, possibly a little bit earlier, so it takes 259 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 3: quite some time to go from the domestication of the 260 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 3: horse around four thousand BC on the steps of Kazakhstan 261 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 3: all the way into the ancient Eies. Horses and chariots 262 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 3: transform warfare into ancient Egypt. It becomes the third branch 263 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 3: of the Egyptian military. They had a very well developed 264 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 3: infantry and navy. And because that adoption of the horse 265 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 3: around sixteen hundred BC coincides with the expulsion of the 266 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 3: foreign dynasty ruling over the northern part of Egypt, the 267 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 3: so called Hixos dynasty, they are expelled around fifteen fifty BC, 268 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 3: and at that point, with the founding of the New Kingdom, 269 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 3: the Egyptians make a decision to expand their empire both 270 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 3: to the north and to the south. They had to 271 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 3: the south before, but they go even further to the north, 272 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 3: not only to gain resources and greater access to trading routes, 273 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 3: but also to have a buffer zone so to prevent 274 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 3: further foreign conquest. So there's a number of reasons for 275 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 3: that empire, and the chariot is part of that. The 276 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 3: big set piece battles of the Bronze Age are battles 277 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 3: bought between chariots with infantry support. You mentioned how we 278 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 3: conceptualize ancient battles and ancient weapons through comparisons with what 279 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 3: we know, right, and sometimes you will read I don't 280 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 3: think this happens as much anymore, but that the chariot 281 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 3: was like the tank of the ancient world. And that's 282 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 3: not true at all, because horses do not like to 283 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 3: crash into one another, nor will they run in charge 284 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 3: into infantry, and certainly you don't want to do that 285 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 3: with the chariot because chariots were very expensive. That's another 286 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 3: interesting aspect of the move towards chariot work in the 287 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 3: Bronze is it's a warfare for highly developed and wealthy 288 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 3: civilizations because you have to be able to invest in 289 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 3: the horses themselves, the pasturage, the training facilities, training the 290 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 3: crews building the chariots. They were the really advanced vehicles, 291 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 3: advanced technology of the dead. And the use of a 292 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 3: chariot in battle is as a mobile archers platform. So 293 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 3: there are other civilizations, for example, the hit Heights who 294 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 3: fight against the Egyptians at this famous Battle of Kotash 295 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 3: during the reign of Ramsey's The second, the hit Heights 296 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 3: view the chariot, or have outfitted their chariots with three people, 297 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 3: essentially more like mobile infantry and moving people from one 298 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 3: place to another and then fighting more as ground troops. 299 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 3: The classic Egyptian chariot, which was much lighter, you could 300 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 3: carry it a single person and could carry the cab 301 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 3: of the chariot. It's remarkable, And with the archers inside 302 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 3: the cab and then one person driving, you could essentially 303 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 3: deliver projectiles all across the front of the opposing force 304 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 3: and then circle back around and then the infantry could 305 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 3: be brought in. 306 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 2: Wow. So it sounds like if one were too roughly 307 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 2: compare it to some piece of modern military technology, it 308 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 2: would actually maybe be more accurate to compare it to say, 309 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 2: like a jet fighter or something, or obviously not in 310 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 2: the air, but more of a certainly a ground attack scenario. 311 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 2: But in terms of being something expensive, mobile and arranged 312 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 2: in nature. 313 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 3: I like that comparison. 314 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,919 Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Yeah, you've given me a whole new 315 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 2: way to think about the chariot here. Now, a number 316 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 2: of our listeners here in Stuff to Blow your Mind 317 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 2: are film fans, and I was excited to see that 318 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 2: you have conducted zoom classes on ancient Egypt as depicted 319 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 2: in film. So I have a couple of questions about this, 320 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 2: starting certainly more on the Egypt Domania side of things. 321 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 2: Do you have a particular guilty pleasure from Egypt Domania cinema? 322 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 3: I do like some movies set in ancient Egypt, although 323 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 3: I would say less guilty pleasure, only because the ancient 324 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:29,959 Speaker 3: Egyptians themselves cast their history in entertaining fictional terms. In 325 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 3: a book I wrote in twenty thirteen called Imagining the Past, 326 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 3: I identified four works of ancient Egyptian historical fiction, meaning 327 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 3: they actually wrote the fiction set three hundred years for example, 328 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 3: Rain of Ramsey's the second about twelve fifty, and then 329 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 3: they're setting something three hundred years, two or three hundred 330 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 3: years earlier. I think the at Egyptians would appreciate, at 331 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 3: least that people are trying now some of those details. Yes, 332 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 3: very annoying, and that's actually one of the reasons why 333 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 3: I decided to teach the class is not so much 334 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,959 Speaker 3: enjoying all the movies, but using them as a jumping 335 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 3: off point, because the visual nature, the dialogue, the sets, 336 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 3: the characters, everything about that gives you a starting point 337 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 3: for them saying, Okay, what about this is accurate? What 338 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 3: about this is based on something but has been manipulated 339 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 3: in a way that actually works to support the story 340 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 3: and doesn't go against generally what we know about ancient 341 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 3: Egypt And where is it just flat out wrong and 342 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 3: they should have never done it. So that was that 343 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 3: was how I approached the class. And the ancient Egyptian 344 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 3: film was so much fun to prepare. We did mummy movies, 345 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 3: we did epics so Cleopatra, Tank Commandments, and then some 346 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 3: movies that are much less well known, such as the 347 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 3: Polish film Pharaoh, which is by far the best in 348 00:21:54,920 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 3: terms of costumes and sets. Costumes especially, it's incredible and 349 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,479 Speaker 3: those were designed by an Egyptian costume set designer and 350 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 3: director named Shadi Afto Salam. And so I highly recommend 351 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 3: the Polish film Pharaoh. 352 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 2: Oh wow, this is so this is from nineteen sixty six. Yes, excellent. Yeah, 353 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: I have not seen this, but this looks this looks remarkable. 354 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 2: Now I'm a film that I know that you're a 355 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,360 Speaker 2: fan of. I wanted to ask about as well, because 356 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 2: I was not familiar with this. I have to admit 357 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 2: to my own inexperience with Egyptian cinema as an actual 358 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 2: Egyptian cinema. Yeah, I was very interested in mentioned of 359 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 2: this nineteen sixty nine film, The Night of Counting the Years. 360 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about this film 361 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 2: and why it's important. 362 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 3: Absolutely. It's also called The Mummy, so a couple of 363 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 3: different titles there, and it was directed by Shadi aftal Salam, 364 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 3: the same man who did the costume signs for Pharaoh, 365 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 3: and he also did some costume designs for Cleopatra for 366 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 3: the Great Makowitz disaster, that is Cleopatra, although sadly many 367 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 3: of them were not incorporated as much as they should 368 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 3: have been into the movie. Night of Counting the Years 369 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,719 Speaker 3: is a fictionalized version of what happened in the eighteen 370 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 3: eighties with an Egyptian family living on the west bank 371 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 3: of Luksor called the Abbetol Russuls, and they had found 372 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 3: a royal cache, so not just a single royal tomb, 373 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 3: but a place where dozens of mummies from the New 374 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 3: Kingdom in early third Interviewedia period had been re ramped 375 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 3: and then cashed put into a single burial which is 376 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 3: a little bit to the south of the Temple of 377 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 3: Hotch episode at darl Bahri and John and I actually 378 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 3: got to go down there. It's not open to the public. 379 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 3: It had not been opened, i think for fifteen years. 380 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 3: They knocked away the concrete and we got to go 381 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 3: down there to film an episode of Lost Treasures of Egypt. 382 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:06,120 Speaker 3: It was one of my favorite experiences. So it's absolutely 383 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 3: it's based on a real event, although the names are 384 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 3: changed in Shadi albal Salam's movie. And the Egyptologists, the 385 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 3: French Egyptologists who were in charge of the antiquity service 386 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 3: at the time, had realized that this was going on, 387 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 3: that some royal toom have been found because various antiquities 388 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 3: were popping up on the market, and two of the 389 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 3: brothers turned on one another and that's how everything was 390 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 3: found out. And then the material was taken in much 391 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 3: haste from Luxor to the Chiro Museum the Bulock Museum 392 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 3: in Cairo at the time, and that was news all 393 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 3: over the world, very very dramatic, and the mummies ended 394 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 3: up being the mummies of the New Kingdom pharaohs. So 395 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 3: those are the mummies that you can see now beautifully 396 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 3: displayed in the National Museum of Egyptian civilization through the 397 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 3: movie Night of County in the Years then, Shadiy Alvdala 398 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 3: Salam uses this movie as a commentary on the view 399 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 3: of the past by the present and doing this through 400 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 3: the lens of neorealism. The other part that I really 401 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 3: loved about this movie in the context of my Ancient 402 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 3: Egyptian film class, is that there were ancient Egyptian tomb 403 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 3: robbers that actually moved the mummies from their original burials 404 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 3: into this cash it's called the Deerro Bahri cash. And 405 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 3: those tomb robbers weren't working just on their own for 406 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:34,400 Speaker 3: their own profit. They were actually sponsored by the Paronic government. 407 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 3: At the end of the New Kingdom, the Varonic government, 408 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 3: the king lost control over Nubia. There was a revolt 409 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 3: by a Nubian general named pana Hesse, and because of that, 410 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 3: Egypt lost control over the main gold mining regions and 411 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 3: they needed the gold. There was an economic crisis at 412 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 3: the time, and realized that there was lots of gold 413 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 3: to be had in the Valley of the Kings. And 414 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 3: so we know the names of the ancient tomb robbers. 415 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 3: We have their letters, three thousand year old letters talking 416 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 3: about keeping their activities private because even though they were 417 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 3: state sponsored, they still didn't want everybody else in their 418 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 3: village to know what was going on. So it's this 419 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 3: murder mystery scandal, and it's their actual letters. It just 420 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 3: blows my mind. We even have one of the men's 421 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:35,239 Speaker 3: houses in a temple. It's a man named Bhutahamen. So 422 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 3: the story both of what actually happened in the eighteen 423 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 3: eighties with the discovery of the cash and the story 424 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 3: from three thousand years previously with how the mummies made 425 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 3: it there is incredible. 426 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 2: Oh wow, So the Night of counting the Years? Would 427 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 2: you frame it as a neo realistic drama like an 428 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 2: art house drama? A certainly not? To be clear, even 429 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 2: though it is sometimes titled the Mummy, is this has 430 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: nothing to do with the supernatural Mummy films? 431 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 3: Correct? So it is. It is absolutely a drama about 432 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 3: that family and about the relationships between the brothers and 433 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 3: also coming to terms with the moral implications of robbing 434 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 3: ancient tubes. The mummy in the title. The term mummy 435 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 3: in the title references the ancient mummies that are then 436 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 3: being used for modern profit for the family. 437 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 2: And there is a. 438 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 3: Murder and so it's all of this family drama but 439 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 3: shot in just a beautiful, beautiful way. 440 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll have to check this one out. I think 441 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 2: in the past it's been featured on the Criterion Channel, 442 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 2: but I'll have to hunt around to see where I can. 443 00:27:49,320 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 2: I can find it today now, serious Egyptology and entertaining 444 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 2: Egypt Domania share a history of a foreign interpretation in 445 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 2: both time and space, as well as legacies obviously of 446 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 2: conquest and colonialism. Where do you feel like we are 447 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 2: today in terms of international fascination with and study of 448 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 2: the ancient Egyptian world? What has changed and what still 449 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 2: needs to change? 450 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 3: It is amazing to see the new museum, the Grand 451 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 3: Egyptian Museum, which will be opening by the end of 452 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 3: this year, becoming an international sensation, the largest museum in 453 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 3: the world dedicated to a single civilization. Half of it, 454 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 3: a little less than half of it, is already open. 455 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 3: The Grand Staircase set in this dramatic architectural setting. When 456 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 3: you come up to the second floor, you have one 457 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 3: of the most beautiful vistas of the Giza Pyramids, and 458 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 3: then three entire galleries that takes you through from the 459 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 3: pre Dynastic period all the way to the Roman era, 460 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 3: but in three different tracks, so you can look at 461 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 3: daily life, you can look at religion, and then the 462 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 3: king and the political system. And I just I think 463 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 3: that is so brilliant because you can go across them 464 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 3: then and look at all three features in the pre 465 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 3: Dynastic period or in the Middle Kingdom, or you can 466 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 3: essentially go through the chronology of Egypt three different times. 467 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 3: So even before the two oncomon material is open and 468 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 3: again that should be the last quarter of the years 469 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 3: is where it's been announced. It is something that is 470 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 3: beautiful and such an amazing presentation of ancient Egyptian cultural 471 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 3: heritage and history. The Tahariir Museum, the Egyptian Museum at 472 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 3: Taker Square is also should absolutely still be on everybody's 473 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 3: muscy list. Some of the most famous artifacts from ancient Egypt, 474 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 3: the normal talent, the burials of YuYu and Tuyas with 475 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 3: the gold from the Tanis tombs are still on display. 476 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,000 Speaker 3: So what I love about fascination with Egypt as it 477 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 3: then is bringing more and more people to Egypt, and 478 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 3: I love that trend, and I love trying to be 479 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 3: just a little bit of a part of that trend. 480 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 3: Knowing so many people who have been in my classes 481 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 3: have then gone to Egypt and seen all of this firsthand. 482 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 3: But there are more sites being opened every year, and 483 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 3: really exciting places and tombs as well as these new museums. 484 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 3: And in terms of what needs to change, I think 485 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 3: it is the public fascination often with things that are 486 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:52,960 Speaker 3: entirely unfounded in facts, and in terms of who constructed 487 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 3: the pyramids, how they constructed the pyramids, the date of 488 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 3: the sphinx. We could go on and on, but that 489 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 3: I think is the thing about the fascination with ancient 490 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 3: Egypt that most needs to change is the primary sources. 491 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 3: And I think the story I told just now about 492 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 3: ancient tim rubbers, that's way more exciting than anything that 493 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 3: is made up. So getting out there the actual information 494 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 3: that is so much more unbelievable in some ways than 495 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 3: just imagining, well, people couldn't have built the pyramids, but 496 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 3: this much must have happened, even though we have not 497 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 3: only the names of the people who build the pyramids, 498 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 3: the barracks of the people who built the pyramids, and 499 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 3: on other pyramids and temples, the remains of mud brick ramps, 500 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 3: which tells us exactly how they built the pyramids, and 501 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 3: a papyrus journal found a little over a decade ago 502 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 3: by a French Egyptologist that is actually a diary of 503 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 3: the man who brought some of the stones that were 504 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 3: the last to put on the top of the Great Pyramid. 505 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 2: Okay, as we're reaching the end of the interview, I 506 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 2: have to ask a couple of vintage clothing questions, because 507 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 2: you are, of course per Instagram the vintage Egyptologists. A 508 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 2: lot of listeners know you from that Instagram account, Vintage Egyptologists, 509 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 2: Vintage Underscore Egyptologists. Could you tell us how your passions 510 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 2: for vintage clothing and ancient Egypt live together on the feed. 511 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 3: I love being able to put vintage fashion and ancient 512 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 3: Egypt together because it helps not only me get doing 513 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 3: express it two of my main passions in both topics, 514 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 3: but also use the visual medium of Instagram as well 515 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 3: as the general interest in fashion to present a lot 516 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 3: of details about ancient Egypt. And I can do that 517 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 3: both through my reels where I'm actually explaining hieroglyphs and 518 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 3: talking about an ancient Egyptian topic very specifically, or use 519 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 3: the visuals of a particular item of vintage fashion, whether 520 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 3: it be in nineteen thirties evening down or in eighteen 521 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 3: fifteen Empire style dress, and then discuss how this might 522 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 3: relate to ancient Egyptian fashion or just a jumping off 523 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 3: point for another topic. My interest in vintage fashion actually 524 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 3: comes from a little bit different place than my interest 525 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 3: in ancient egypt And it's a coincidence that my favorite 526 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 3: silhouette happens to be the same decade that the tumor 527 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 3: common was discovered. Through vintage fashion and collecting, that's also 528 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 3: given me new perspectives on studying ancient Egyptian fashion and clothing. 529 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 3: And I'm in the process of doing some additional work 530 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 3: on how there might be an interaction between the way 531 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 3: fabrics are used, for example in the nineteen thirties, and 532 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 3: how that might inform the way a single rectangular piece 533 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 3: of cloth could be wrapped around the body and maybe 534 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 3: have a different silhouette than is often imagined. 535 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 2: And how about in the field do do vintage fabrics 536 00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 2: hold up well if you were a say, you know, 537 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 2: exploring a tomb or out in a desert environment, out 538 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 2: in the field. 539 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 3: I wear the vintage clothing I wear in the field 540 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 3: are typically seventies, eighties, nineties khakis and tons, and I 541 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 3: mean every now and then it'll be something new, but 542 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 3: pretty much for that it's used clothes out in the field. 543 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 3: And where in attention to vintage makes a difference is 544 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 3: just being able to check absolutely certain that what you 545 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 3: were wearing is one hundred percent conton because even two 546 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 3: percent of an artificial fiber in one hundred and twenty 547 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 3: degree heat makes a huge difference. So looking for those 548 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 3: older fabrics can be really important, But what's mostly about 549 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 3: is just the composition of the fabric and that it 550 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,879 Speaker 3: has to be one hundred percent cotton. Linen is also 551 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 3: pretty cool, but cotton cotton is always the best and 552 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,839 Speaker 3: light colored fabrics, so that that's the connection with the feel. 553 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 3: But otherwise it's used clothes, not vintage clothes for the 554 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 3: archeological work. 555 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 2: All right, I want to zoom back out and ask 556 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 2: a broader question here. I've been asking about Egyptomania, serious 557 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 2: interest in ancient Egypt. I feel like all of the 558 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 2: sesuss at one point or another, Like you know, maybe 559 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 2: we watch a Mummy movie when we're a kid, but 560 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 2: then that leads to a more serious interest in ancient 561 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 2: Egyptian topics. So when did any of this sees you 562 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 2: for the first time, and how did you decide to 563 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 2: pursue Egyptology as your profession. 564 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 3: I've been interested in ancient Egypt ever since I was 565 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 3: a child. I know that's a really common phenomenon, a 566 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 3: little less common to pursue it professionally. It was really 567 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 3: from reading books, and a lot of it was looking 568 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 3: at images of hieroglyphs and really wanting to be able 569 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 3: to read them. So that was that was the driving passion, 570 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 3: was wanting to read hieroglyphs, wanting to read the cursive 571 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 3: version on the virus hiratic and I have been so 572 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 3: lucky to be able to do that and pursue it. 573 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 3: And I decided to pursue it professionally when before I 574 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 3: applied to Yale University and then going for my bachelor's 575 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 3: and my PhD. And it's been amazing then getting to 576 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,320 Speaker 3: not only have taught in a university environment, but also 577 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 3: now to be able to take that love of teaching 578 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 3: and people's love of learning and do it in such 579 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 3: a pure way where there aren't any grades, there isn't 580 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 3: any pressure, and you just get to have fun. And learn, 581 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 3: and I love that about my zoom classes and what 582 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:45,760 Speaker 3: I'm able to do now. 583 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 2: Well, speaking of your zoom classes, for listeners who are 584 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 2: interested in these, who want to learn more about Ancient 585 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:55,280 Speaker 2: Egypt and hieroglyphs in the Ancient Egyptian religion, among other topics, 586 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 2: where can they learn more? Where can they find more 587 00:36:58,239 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 2: information about these classes? 588 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 3: Can find me on Instagram as you mentioned before, at 589 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 3: Vintage Underscore Egyptologists, and my website call lead Darnell dot com, 590 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,800 Speaker 3: which is where I put up information about my classes, 591 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 3: and you can subscribe to my newsletter and be the 592 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,280 Speaker 3: first to find out. And I am excited to announce 593 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,240 Speaker 3: that in September I will be doing a news section 594 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 3: of how to Read Hieroglyphs Unit one, and that is 595 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 3: a five hour class. It meets one hour a week 596 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 3: for five weeks and it goes from the very basics 597 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 3: of how to read hieroglyphs all the way to being 598 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 3: able to read a funerary formula so that even if 599 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 3: you only do five hours of Ancient Egyptian, you can 600 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 3: make an Ancient Egyptian spirit happy. I mean, yeah, I 601 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 3: teach everyone enough hieroglyphs so obviously, and then you can continue. 602 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 3: I have students who have been doing this for one year, 603 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 3: two years, all the way from the beginning of four 604 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 3: years ago, and they can read entire literary texts not 605 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 3: only in hieroglyphs, and religious texts not only in hieroglyphs, 606 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 3: but directly from pup hyarate. So it's not like you 607 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,280 Speaker 3: just do a couple things and then oh, there's nothing 608 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 3: more to move on to you. Really it's a serious program, 609 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 3: and when you get to the upper levels, it's the 610 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:10,920 Speaker 3: same sort of work you would be doing in a 611 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,879 Speaker 3: university setting. In terms of lecture classes. For those people 612 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 3: who don't want to dive into or necessarily learn a 613 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,840 Speaker 3: new language, the lecture classes don't require any previous knowledge. 614 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 3: And the next one coming up is going to be 615 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 3: on demons and exorcism and magical practices, which will be 616 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,800 Speaker 3: a lot of fun, and we'll be reading some direct 617 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,320 Speaker 3: ancient Egyptian spells and talking about what a demon really 618 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 3: is in Ansian Egypt because it might not be what 619 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:41,240 Speaker 3: everybody thinks. 620 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,239 Speaker 2: Oh well, I know that we have listeners that are 621 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,760 Speaker 2: going to be very interested in that. Well, excellent Collen, 622 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 2: thanks for coming on the show. With me today, taking 623 00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,720 Speaker 2: time out of your day to chat about Ancient Egypt, 624 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 2: hiweraglyphs and all of these exciting opportunities. 625 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed 626 00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 3: this conversation. 627 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 2: Thanks again to doctor Colleen Darnell for taking time out 628 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 2: of her day to chat with me. This one is 629 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,560 Speaker 2: a real treat again. You can follow her on Instagram 630 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 2: at Vintage Underscore Egyptologist and learn more about her classes 631 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 2: and books at her website Colleen Darnell dot com. Oh hey, 632 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 2: and I have one more thing to add here. In 633 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 2: post production, Colleen asked that we passed this along. If 634 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:25,879 Speaker 2: you've ever wondered what is fact and what is fiction 635 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,239 Speaker 2: about Indiana Jones and his quest for the Arc of 636 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 2: the Covenant, well you can tune into her ninety minute 637 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 2: webinar Ancient Egypt at the Movies Indiana Jones. This is 638 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,360 Speaker 2: going to meet live on Zoom on Thursday, August twenty first, 639 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,399 Speaker 2: from two to three thirty pm and eight to nine 640 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,800 Speaker 2: thirty pm US Eastern Time. It's going to be a 641 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 2: vividly illustrated presentation. She's going to introduce you to the 642 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,520 Speaker 2: first recorded Egyptian archaeologist, real ancient tomb robbers and the 643 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 2: intact royal tombs that were found at Tennis So it 644 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 2: sounds like a good time. You can find out more 645 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 2: about that at her website. Just your reminder to everyone 646 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 2: out there that's Stuff to Blow your Mind is primarily 647 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 2: a science and culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays 648 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 2: and Thursdays wherever you get your podcasts. On Fridays, we 649 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 2: also set aside most serious matters to discuss a weird 650 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,279 Speaker 2: film on Weird House Cinema. Thanks as always to the 651 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 2: excellent JJ Possway for producing the show, and if you'd 652 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 2: like to get in touch with us, drop us a 653 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:34,520 Speaker 2: line at contact at stuff to blow your Mind dot com. 654 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 655 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,399 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 656 00:40:40,600 --> 00:41:01,760 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.