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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. We all have a

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Speaker 1: place of peace that we try to seek out at

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Speaker 1: the end of a long day of work. Maybe go

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Speaker 1: for a walk, take our dog with us, our best friend,

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Speaker 1: clear our mind. That place of safety, that place of

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Speaker 1: peace suddenly explodes in your life comes to the end.

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Speaker 1: Somebody's wielding a knife. They're hovering over you. They're burying

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Speaker 1: a knife into your body, over and over and over again.

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Speaker 1: And maybe the last thing you see is your dog

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Speaker 1: dying right before you. That's our case today. I'm Joseph

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Speaker 1: Scott Morrigan in this his body bags. Joining me today

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Speaker 1: is my good friend Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime

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Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie, what can you tell us

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Speaker 1: about this case? Katherine Katie Janice took her dog Bowie

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Speaker 1: for a walk in Atlanta's Piedmont Park now Piedmont Park.

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Speaker 1: To put this in terms where other people who are

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Speaker 1: not from this area can understand, would be like taking

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Speaker 1: a walk in Central Park in New York. Katie went

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Speaker 1: to see her girlfriend Emma, who was working down the

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Speaker 1: street as a bartender, and there were lots of people

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Speaker 1: out walking their own dogs. This is kind of a

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Speaker 1: typical scene for this midtown neighborhood. After leaving the bar,

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Speaker 1: Katie continued her walk. After work, Emma went home that

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Speaker 1: Katie wasn't there. She should have been. She should have

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Speaker 1: been back from the dog walk by then. So Emma

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Speaker 1: started calling Katie's cellphone but did not get an answer,

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Speaker 1: and she said text messages they also went unanswered, and

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Speaker 1: that's when the worry said in and Emma went out

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Speaker 1: to look for Katie. Now, obviously, when you're walking a dog,

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Speaker 1: you can go anywhere, so Emma used to find my

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Speaker 1: iPhone app on Katie's phone. It showed Katie's phone was

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Speaker 1: about a hundred yards inside Piedmont Park, which was very

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Speaker 1: close to Katie and Emma's home. Emma thought maybe Katie

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Speaker 1: had dropped the phone, so she went into the park

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Speaker 1: to find it. But what she finds is a very

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Speaker 1: gruesome scene. The first thing she saw was Bowie. Bowie

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Speaker 1: was dead. That is the dog, and it's a pit bull.

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Speaker 1: Not too far away, Emma found Katie's body and she

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Speaker 1: was dead. This is a very gruesome crime, Joe, that

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about. But let's talk about the beginning.

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Speaker 1: Bowie and Katie were not found next to each other,

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Speaker 1: but they were found, especially Bowie, at the entrance of

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Speaker 1: the park. There's so much to talk about here, Joe,

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Speaker 1: I gonna tell you as you know, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: i worked in Atlanta for a long time and I'm

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Speaker 1: very familiar with Peed in my Park. This is a

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Speaker 1: wide open space in the area where this young woman

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Speaker 1: was found with her pet is immediately adjacent to one

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Speaker 1: of the main entrances to the park. It's it's kind

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Speaker 1: of big arched area that you can walk through. Um

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Speaker 1: that you know, plainly states Peed my Park. It's a

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Speaker 1: it's an area where people actually go through on a

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Speaker 1: regular basis to to take nice, long, peaceful walks through.

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Speaker 1: This area's very bucolic, beautiful old trees and this sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. Areas to picnic. And the fact that her body,

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Speaker 1: her body is actually found, I mean, let's face it,

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Speaker 1: in plane view, is quite striking to me, you know,

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Speaker 1: as an investigator when you begin to look at a

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Speaker 1: scene like this and trust me, what this young woman

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Speaker 1: went through took time. So that tells us something about

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Speaker 1: the perpetrator. They essentially had no fear of being found. Perhaps,

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Speaker 1: you know, some people say, well, you know, us as

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Speaker 1: under the cover of darkness. It is under the cover

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Speaker 1: of darkness, but it's not like we're out in a

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Speaker 1: cow pasture in in you know, rural Georgia somewhere. We're

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Speaker 1: in the most one of the most populated cities in

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Speaker 1: the South. People walk through this area, They make it

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Speaker 1: a point to walk through this area. It's very popular.

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Speaker 1: Who would do this in this specific environment? And you

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Speaker 1: you begin to think about the nature of the scene

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Speaker 1: where she was found, where Bowie was found, and you

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Speaker 1: have to think this must have been an absolute blood

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Speaker 1: bath around this area because there were so many injuries

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Speaker 1: to both genesis body as well as her pet dog's body,

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Speaker 1: that blood would have been spilled on all of the surfaces.

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Speaker 1: And those are some of the things that you have

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Speaker 1: to think about as an investigator. It's an open area.

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Speaker 1: Who would have access to it, who would have knowledge

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Speaker 1: that she would be walking through this specific area at

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Speaker 1: this time of evening, and who would be bold enough,

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Speaker 1: bold enough to approach this young woman, who, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: is walking along with a pit bull at their side.

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Speaker 1: I don't know about you, Jackie, but for me, you know,

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Speaker 1: a person that's got a pit bull and toe is

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Speaker 1: going to be probably the last one of the last

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Speaker 1: people I'm gonna want to try to target because they're

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Speaker 1: very they're very affectionate when it comes to their their master.

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Speaker 1: They are very protective when it comes to their master.

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Speaker 1: So that gives us an insight into who may have

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Speaker 1: perpetrated this. One of the things that struck me about

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Speaker 1: this show. You were talking about the big sign that

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Speaker 1: goes into Piedmont Park and on the very bottom of

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Speaker 1: the sign there is a post that says pets must

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Speaker 1: be on a leash. So it's not like the pit

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Speaker 1: bull got away and ran after somebody. We know the

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Speaker 1: dog was the leash to begin with, so we know

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Speaker 1: that the initial attack, the two of them were standing

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Speaker 1: close together. Yeah, yeah, they they absolutely would have been

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Speaker 1: standing close together. She's got the dog in toe or

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Speaker 1: it's like my dogs. My my dogs have me and toe.

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Speaker 1: You know, many times they're they're excited, they're ready to

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Speaker 1: get out of the house, they want to go for

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Speaker 1: a walk. This is there, it's their happy place. So

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Speaker 1: you know that the dog was right by her side

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Speaker 1: as they're walking along. The dog didn't get away, The

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Speaker 1: dog didn't alert on something I don't think, and you

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Speaker 1: know hopped off the leash magically and ran off to

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Speaker 1: chase somebody that was a threat. That dog would have

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Speaker 1: hung back, if you will, in order to protect uh,

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Speaker 1: Miss Janice. So that that's something that you know that

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Speaker 1: comes to mind when you're beginning to try to assess

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Speaker 1: the scene out there in this in this open area.

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Speaker 1: You know, how and how did they get this much

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Speaker 1: distance between the dog and the dog's master? How does

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Speaker 1: that happen in this environment? Uh, in the midst of

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Speaker 1: this attack, So, you know, it really gives you pause

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Speaker 1: to think. So, how does this happen? Joe? How do

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Speaker 1: you kill a dog? Now we do know there was

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Speaker 1: not a gun used in this attack. How do you

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Speaker 1: kill a pit bull with a knife or a stabbing

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Speaker 1: instrument of some kind. I mean, a pit bull is

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Speaker 1: extremely strong. A pit bull can be in protective mode,

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Speaker 1: and we're assuming that that's the case. A pit bull

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Speaker 1: can be vicious. So how was the perpetrator able to

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Speaker 1: do this? And do they do autopsies on dogs? You know?

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Speaker 1: An answer to your question, Jackie, Yeah, they do. They

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Speaker 1: do examinations on dogs. Now in this particular case, from

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Speaker 1: my understanding, at least this point, Bowie's body did not

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Speaker 1: go did not go to the Medical Examiner's office for instance,

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Speaker 1: uh there in the city of Atlanta. Then dog's body

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Speaker 1: was actually taken by the state Investigative Agency, the g

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Speaker 1: b I, and I would probably put money on it

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Speaker 1: that they would have a consulting veterinarian perhaps as well

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Speaker 1: as a forensic pathologist out at the State Medical Examiner's

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Speaker 1: lab to take a look at at the dog's injuries.

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Speaker 1: And and this is important because you know, listen, the

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Speaker 1: dog and Miss Janice were not killed in two separate instances.

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Speaker 1: This is all one big event that's taking place. So

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Speaker 1: from an evidentially standpoint, one of the things that you're

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Speaker 1: going to be looking for when it comes to injuries.

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Speaker 1: You want to be able to try to compare the

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Speaker 1: injuries that the dog had to those that Miss Channis

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Speaker 1: sustained is at the same NiFe. That's the big question here, right,

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Speaker 1: because we do know that this is a sharp force

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Speaker 1: injury death. So you know some of the things that

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Speaker 1: you're gonna be looking for on Bowie's body. For instance,

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Speaker 1: is this a single edged weapon or was it a

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Speaker 1: double edged weapon? Was it a particular type of knife

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Speaker 1: that was you say, for instance, something that had a

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Speaker 1: smooth edge as opposed to say, for instance, a serrated edge,

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Speaker 1: which sometimes you can have a combination of both, and

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Speaker 1: it leaves very very distinctive markings that can be examined

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Speaker 1: after the fact and possibly possibly compared, certainly at a

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Speaker 1: microscopic level. And there again you've got this connectivity and

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Speaker 1: forensic science that we are always looking for. In a

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Speaker 1: case like this, we have two victims, and we would

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Speaker 1: have to be looking for DNA in the dog's mouth

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Speaker 1: because most likely the dog went on an attack, so

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Speaker 1: that we're looking for evidence from a dog bite. Oh,

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Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. Uh. One of the things that you

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Speaker 1: would look for is you mentioned d N a jackie.

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Speaker 1: But let's keep in mind, how how does a dog attack? Well,

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Speaker 1: when a dog attacks, they bite and they ripped. I

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Speaker 1: want everybody to think about just for a second. And

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Speaker 1: this is kind of a little in dwelling lesson here.

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Speaker 1: People are familiar with the two pointy teeth that you

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Speaker 1: have on the top and on the bottom. Uh. These

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Speaker 1: are actually referred to as canine teeth. And the way

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Speaker 1: biting actually works is that these teeth are sunk in

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Speaker 1: to say, for instance, tissue. When a dog bites, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't chew. The dog bites and it rips. So you're

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Speaker 1: not just gonna be looking at a molecular level for

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Speaker 1: d n A that you know you might can swab

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Speaker 1: Bowie's mouth for. But you're also gonna be looking for

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Speaker 1: things like tissue that might be caught up in the teeth,

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Speaker 1: or maybe even fabric that's caught up in the teeth,

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Speaker 1: and these things would actually be left behind. Keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: you know, I cannot imagine in my wildest fantasies that

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Speaker 1: the perpetrator would have taken time to go back and

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Speaker 1: clean the dog's mouth out. There would be something there

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Speaker 1: if in fact, the dog did attack this potential perpetrator.

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Speaker 1: And again this begs the question, a dog that is

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Speaker 1: so prone to a defensive posture and a protection posture

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Speaker 1: like a pit bull, how do you get so close

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Speaker 1: to them that you can actually drive a knife not

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Speaker 1: just once, but multiple times into this canines body. And

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Speaker 1: while this is going on, what's miss Janic's doing. Is

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Speaker 1: she already deceased or she's looking on in horror Jackie.

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Speaker 1: We've had a little discussion about the nature of this

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Speaker 1: environment in which this poor woman was just brutally attacked

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Speaker 1: along with her her pet dog, Bowie. But we we

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Speaker 1: need to talk a little bit now. As hard as

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Speaker 1: it is, We've we've got to talk about these injuries

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Speaker 1: because I've got tell Jackie, in my career, I've seen

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Speaker 1: very few cases that even arrival this one, Katie Janis

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Speaker 1: was found about a hundred yards inside the park and

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Speaker 1: about a hundred feet from Bowie, her dog. The suggestion

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Speaker 1: is that from where Bowie was found and where Miss

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Speaker 1: Janice was found, that likely Katie Janie tried to run

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Speaker 1: away and the killer caught up to her. And we

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Speaker 1: do know that she died from As we've talked about

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Speaker 1: sharp force injuries, where were those injuries and what kind

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Speaker 1: of damage do they do? Jackie, I've actually got the

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Speaker 1: autopsy report here lay before me as as you and

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Speaker 1: I are chatting right now, and I've spent the past

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Speaker 1: few days just going over it, and i gotta tell

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Speaker 1: you it's it's extensive. I mean absolutely, um a wash

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Speaker 1: with details about what she went through. And you know,

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Speaker 1: we'll try to chake this from the top and just

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Speaker 1: just walk through this very carefully. Um, she's got you know,

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Speaker 1: like I said previously, these are what are referred to

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Speaker 1: as sharp force injuries and a sharp force injuries just

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Speaker 1: so our audience understands, is it's anything that involves an

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Speaker 1: edged weapon and that can either be a stab wound,

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Speaker 1: and stabs, keep in mind, are deeper than they are long.

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Speaker 1: And then you have in sized wounds which are just

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Speaker 1: think of miss slices and they're generally shallow. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: with Mrs Janis's body, uh, we have to think about, um, well,

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Speaker 1: how first off, how can somebody get so close to

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Speaker 1: her in order to facilitate this because there were so

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Speaker 1: many injuries with somebody laying in wait for her as

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Speaker 1: she walked through this gate or through this archway at

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Speaker 1: at at Piedmont Park, you know, kind of tracking our law,

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Speaker 1: and there was such there's such a level of trauma

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Speaker 1: here that it's hard to kind of take its measure.

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Speaker 1: I think that one of the things that really stood

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Speaker 1: out to me, uh was the fact that I don't

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Speaker 1: normally use this term, but there is an attempt, at

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Speaker 1: least on my part, at least from my perspective as

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Speaker 1: a medical legal death investigator, in an attempt to disfigure

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Speaker 1: Miss Janis and kind of let me lay the lay

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Speaker 1: the groundwork here. She's got a lot of injuries over

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Speaker 1: the totality of her torso. But what's really striking is

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Speaker 1: that her face and these are all if you think

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Speaker 1: about the head, we have the front, which is referred

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Speaker 1: to as the anterior um. These are all anterior injuries

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Speaker 1: and they start they start actually at the forehead. There's

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Speaker 1: even one I think that goes to the very top

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Speaker 1: of the head. They go all the way to the top,

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Speaker 1: slice through the forehead, across the surface of both eyes,

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Speaker 1: both eyelids are involved. Just you know, just keep that

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Speaker 1: in mind. The lips are actually in size, remember we

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Speaker 1: talked about it in size. When that's a cut, that's

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Speaker 1: a slice all the way down to the chin. And

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Speaker 1: there are multiple of these. So it's almost like somebody

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Speaker 1: is in a fevered state as they are attempting to

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Speaker 1: disfigure her, slice her up, and really make her into

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Speaker 1: this grotesque person in death. And you really have to

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Speaker 1: think about, you know, I think to a great degree,

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Speaker 1: what's going on inside the mind of a perpetrator in

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Speaker 1: a case like this. What you're describing to me, Joe,

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Speaker 1: sounds like a slasher film. Yeah, it kind of does,

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Speaker 1: doesn't Jackie you know, you begin to think about it

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Speaker 1: um and to give to give our audience a little

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Speaker 1: understanding of this. One of these injuries that really stood

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Speaker 1: up to me. Obviously the slicing of the of the

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Speaker 1: eyes is significant, but or the eyelids. One of the

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Speaker 1: things that really kind of stuck with me is that

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Speaker 1: the friends and pathologists talks about the slice injury to

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Speaker 1: the mouth goes down to the buckle New Coast. Remember

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Speaker 1: we've heard that term before. That's actually where we go

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Speaker 1: in harvest d NA out of the living with swabs.

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Speaker 1: That means that not only was the lips slice through,

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Speaker 1: it goes through what's referred to in forensic terms as

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Speaker 1: it's a full thickness wound, which means it goes all

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Speaker 1: the way down two underlying tissue. So you've sliced through

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Speaker 1: the lip at this point in time. That that gives

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Speaker 1: you an idea as as to what has happened. And

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Speaker 1: one other interesting component is that as you work your

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Speaker 1: way down from these injuries on the head and I'm

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Speaker 1: not suggesting any way that this is the order in

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Speaker 1: which they took place, but you know, if we're kind

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Speaker 1: of because there's so many injuries here, if we kind

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Speaker 1: of think about this anatomically. If you start with the head.

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Speaker 1: After after we have examined all of these injuries on

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Speaker 1: the head um, you have to begin to think about, well,

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Speaker 1: the neck. You know what's involved with the neck. Oh

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Speaker 1: my gosh, it's it's remarkable. If you think about the

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Speaker 1: right side of your neck, starting essentially directly below your

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Speaker 1: right ear, there is an incised injury that runs again,

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Speaker 1: this is what's referred to as full thickness injury. It

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Speaker 1: goes down through the subcu fat, into the vessels and

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Speaker 1: into the muscle. Did you know that Ms Janice both

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Speaker 1: of her caroated arteries, which are the main blood supply

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Speaker 1: that goes from the heart to the brain, both of

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Speaker 1: those were sliced through that. That's that's set a depth

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Speaker 1: of over an inch beneath the surface of your neck tissue.

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Speaker 1: You're getting down you know, close to probably two inches

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Speaker 1: in thickness you're going down there. And not only that,

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Speaker 1: but her trachea, her windpipe essentially is what the doctor

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Speaker 1: refers to as transsected. These vessels are transsected, the windpipe

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Speaker 1: is transsected, going all the way down to the cervical vertebrate.

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Speaker 1: So those the supports, the supports for the head. From

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Speaker 1: a skeletal standpoint, that's becoming involved. Now you've even got

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Speaker 1: on the back side of her neck, the skeletal attachments,

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Speaker 1: the muscle skeletal attachments back there, Jackie, the muscles were

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Speaker 1: sliced as well. That's that like the C two, C

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Speaker 1: three level of the vertebrates. So those are really high

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Speaker 1: up in the neck and those have also been been

300
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Speaker 1: cut away. And what's really ghastly about this is the

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Speaker 1: fact that in those muscles on the back of the

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Speaker 1: neck they found hemorrhage. And guess what, when you find hemorrhage,

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Speaker 1: that's an indication the heart still beating. We know that

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Speaker 1: she had over fifty wounds. This is taking some time

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Speaker 1: and some effort. Yeah, it does take time, Jackie, you know,

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Speaker 1: and you know, when I started reading this autopsy report,

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Speaker 1: I began to think about the years, all of those

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Speaker 1: years I spent working on the mortgage an autopsy assistant,

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Speaker 1: and let's face it, we're just gonna be adults here

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Speaker 1: and talk about this. I spent that time protecting human cadavers,

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Speaker 1: and it would of course, we were very purposeful and

312
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Speaker 1: what we would do, but you know, autopsies many times

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Speaker 1: um involved sharp instruments. That's what we do, and it

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Speaker 1: it would take you know, two hours. Sometimes we're talking

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Speaker 1: about a tremendous number of sharp force injuries that have

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Speaker 1: taken place in an open space out on the bare earth,

317
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Speaker 1: if you will, in plane view, Manji, though it is

318
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Speaker 1: at night, it's still in plane view. These are taking

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Speaker 1: taking place out there. So was this a frenzied event

320
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Speaker 1: or was she somehow removed somewhere else, maybe under cover

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Speaker 1: and all of this stuff was done to her. But

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Speaker 1: you can't get past effect that this was facilitated, uh

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Speaker 1: by an individual that had to take a significant amount

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Speaker 1: of time. You know, you can say frenzy, we can

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Speaker 1: apply that term, but still it doesn't necessarily mean that

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Speaker 1: it happened over a very short period of time. This

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Speaker 1: knife was buried into her body every single time. Remember,

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Speaker 1: every time a knife is buried, it takes effort on

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Speaker 1: the part of the perpetrator to pull it out. You know,

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Speaker 1: you talked about the stab wounds that she had on

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Speaker 1: her back. She had stab wounds so deep on her back.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I like to teach my students that,

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Speaker 1: uh that when you think about an attack from the rear.

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Speaker 1: People kind of contract up into almost like a turtle shell.

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Speaker 1: The back is hard to get through. This knife was

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Speaker 1: buried into her back so deeply that it actually punctured

337
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,560
Speaker 1: one of her lungs posteriorly, which means from behind. And

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Speaker 1: here's here's the kicker. One of the wounds actually penetrated

339
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,399
Speaker 1: her A order, which is the main vessel that comes

340
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Speaker 1: off of the heart that supplies blood to the rest

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Speaker 1: of the body. And you know what I know about this.

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Speaker 1: I know that she was alive when this was happening

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Speaker 1: because her left chest, her left chest where her left

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Speaker 1: lung is in the A order had begun to fill

345
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Speaker 1: up with blood. That means that the heart is still

346
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 1: beating at this point. And what's very important here when

347
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:07,440
Speaker 1: you begin to try to put this together from a

348
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 1: forensic pathology, is a standpoint and you begin to think

349
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Speaker 1: about what's referred to as sequencing of injuries, because everybody

350
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Speaker 1: wants to know, you know, what was the fatal the

351
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Speaker 1: fatal blow that brought about her death at the end

352
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Speaker 1: of the day, and how much of the stuff that

353
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 1: was going on this trauma was it anti mortem or

354
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,119
Speaker 1: was it post mortem? And that means staying around with

355
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,520
Speaker 1: the body after an individual is deceased, to continue to

356
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 1: slice and cut and stab and all of these things

357
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,879
Speaker 1: that are involved. And she's even got you know, and

358
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Speaker 1: we haven't even mentioned contusions. She's gotten multiple blunt forced contusions.

359
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 1: So she was struck in some way or struck with something.

360
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 1: We don't know what that was, whether it was a

361
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: hand or a fist or some object, but she does

362
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 1: have multiple you know, that's a lot of activity going

363
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,679
Speaker 1: on in a case like this, Jackie. So, Joe, what

364
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,400
Speaker 1: does it tell us about the then what you were

365
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 1: just talking about that she was stepped so deep that

366
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 1: it cut the eight order around the heart, What does

367
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 1: that tell us about the size or the possible size

368
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 1: of the weapon? I think probably one of the most

369
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 1: significant things about this weapon, Jackie. I think a lot

370
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,199
Speaker 1: of people want to think about things like, uh, the

371
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,359
Speaker 1: length of the blade. That's important. Okay, that that is

372
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,520
Speaker 1: certainly important. It's certainly something that we consider. But you know,

373
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Speaker 1: what really fascinates me about this weapon is that this

374
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Speaker 1: weapon would have had to have been sturdy. That is

375
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 1: the backside of that weapon, if it's a single edged blade,

376
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:40,879
Speaker 1: just you know, if you have an opportunity to go

377
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,119
Speaker 1: into your kitchen or whatever and look at the knives

378
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 1: you have when you're in your in your drawer. If

379
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,360
Speaker 1: you take out like an old butter knife or even

380
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 1: a state knife that you've picked up at the store,

381
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 1: they're not really robust. They have specific edges on them,

382
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Speaker 1: and the back is not very robust. But if you

383
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 1: find a butcher knife, like a substantial butcher knife, there's

384
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,119
Speaker 1: gonna be a thickness that occurs on the back of this.

385
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Speaker 1: And the reason this is important to me, remember what

386
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 1: I said about stabbing her in her posterior chest, her back.

387
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to be able to generate so much force,

388
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: not just once, not just twice. But we're talking about

389
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,400
Speaker 1: fifty injuries, Jackie. So that means that that blade would

390
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 1: have had to have been strong enough two endure this

391
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:29,240
Speaker 1: frenetic uh slicing and stabbing over and over and over again,

392
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 1: unless unless the perpetrator showed up with multiple edged weapons.

393
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,160
Speaker 1: And one more thing that you have to consider about this,

394
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: these are very specific injuries. Okay, Um, you know one

395
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: of the reasons we sharpened knives. You know some people

396
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 1: have sharpeners at home. One of the reasons we do

397
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 1: that is because you lose your edge. You know, after

398
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 1: a period of time you slice things over and over

399
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 1: and over again in the kitchen, you have to resharpen

400
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: a knife or it's not worth any how is it

401
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 1: that this knife you can still continue to use this

402
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 1: tome after time after time. So I would think that

403
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: that would be a good indicator from a forensic standpoint

404
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: as to, uh, how well the knife was sharpened, the

405
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 1: quality of the blade, uh, that it's being utilized. Because

406
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: as these injuries go on, the the nature of the

407
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 1: injuries is going to become more blunted, if you will,

408
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 1: you might see more hemorrhage associated with it because the

409
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 1: edge is not there as it was the first time

410
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 1: that you put the edge that knife to Miss Janis's body.

411
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 1: The last one is going to be particularly difficult to

412
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: enter into her body with because the edge has gone

413
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 1: on the weapon at that point time, or it's not

414
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: the same as it was when you actually started. So,

415
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: knowing what you've taught me about blood and how it

416
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 1: comes from the body while the heart is still pumping,

417
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 1: we have two victims here, a dog and a woman.

418
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 1: This perpetrator is go going to be covered covered, literally

419
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 1: covered in blood. How does a person just walk away

420
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 1: and not be seen covered in blood? I've thought about this.

421
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: This is uh one of the very compelling points about

422
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: this case. Because you're gonna have human blood and canine blood,

423
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 1: which in forensic parlance is that's what we referred to

424
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 1: as commingling of blood. You can't get past that. And

425
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: I don't like to Maybe I'm being too melodramatic, but

426
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: I don't like to use the term covered in blood.

427
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: I like to say use the term bathed in blood,

428
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: almost painted in blood, because you've got Bowie's blood and

429
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: Miss Genesis blood commingled, and it would be covering certainly

430
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: the hands, the arms. If any of the arteries are

431
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: clipped on either one of the victims, um you might

432
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 1: have arterial spray. So that means if you clip an

433
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: artery as the heart pumping, blood will be not just

434
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 1: gushing out, it'll be spraying out onto the individual. You

435
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: can't escape that that's gonna be happening. So you might

436
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 1: have if the perpetrators in a dominant position, not only

437
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 1: gonna have blood up and down their arms, think about

438
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: the area beneath their neck, think about the area over

439
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 1: their chest. Maybe they've got clothing on, it's going to

440
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: be covered in this area, almost like they've been painted

441
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: with blood all over them. So how much blood are

442
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 1: we actually talk about here, Joe, You're you're saying nicking

443
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 1: and artery. How much blood are we talking about? Well,

444
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 1: you gotta think, Jackie, that miss Jenness's body and and

445
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: and uh and the dog's body are not going to

446
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,479
Speaker 1: be completely drained of blood, and there will still be

447
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 1: blood there now. And I can't tell you the volume

448
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 1: of blood that that a dog a dog has, but

449
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 1: I can tell you what the human being we're looking

450
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 1: at potentially somewhere in the neighborhood about two gallons. That's

451
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 1: that's the totality of blood that that a human being

452
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: has on board. You have to think that at least probably,

453
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: I don't know, half gallon of blood would have been spilled.

454
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: If you've got and it's not just one artery, Jackie,

455
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 1: you've got multiple arteries that are probably being clipped. Um.

456
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: I mean, let's face it, we both both of the

457
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 1: carodd arteries were clipped in this case. And the fact

458
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: also the fact that you have to go into remember

459
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 1: what I said earlier about the lung being punctured and

460
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: the chest is being filling up with blood. Uh, that's

461
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 1: we think while the heart is beating. One of things

462
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: that happens with that is that you have what's referred

463
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 1: to as regurgitation of blood if the lung gets clipped,

464
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: So you have an individual that's actually forcing blood out

465
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: of their airway. It's just a natural response to try

466
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: to clear the airway. So they're coughing and they're spraying

467
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 1: blood out, So you would have to account for that

468
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: as well. It's it would be hard to do the

469
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: calculus simply, you know, trying to think about how much

470
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: blood would be at the scene. I can tell you

471
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: it would be a substantial amount. Jackie is horrible. Is

472
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: as these injuries are that we're describing right now, there's

473
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: there's one piece of this that we still have yet

474
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: to cover, and it's it might be too many of

475
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: our listeners. One of the most shocking things that any

476
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: of us have ever heard it is, Joe, we have

477
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: learned through the forensic information and the autopsy that Miss

478
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: Janice's body was extremely mutilated. You talked about the damage

479
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: that had been done to her face, but we know

480
00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:00,719
Speaker 1: that her body was mutilated and carved letters were carved

481
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: into this woman's abdomen. Joe. Yeah, and um, I've had

482
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: cases that are kind of similar to this, but I

483
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: don't think anything that's this over the top. There were

484
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: letters carved into into her body. I want to back

485
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: up just for a second and also make note of

486
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: the fact that not only were letters carved into her body.

487
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: Remember how I talked about that the there was great

488
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: facial disfigure disfiguration. In addition to that, her left breast, uh,

489
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: the nipple of her left left breast has been um

490
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: severely disfigured as well sliced if if you will, down

491
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: to the subcutaneous fat area. So that's that's again a

492
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: full thickness injury. And you know, I hate the word why,

493
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: but as an investigator sometimes you have to go there

494
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 1: with that. You have to understand, try to understand why

495
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: specifically would you target that particular area of the body.

496
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: And you know, I think that's pretty obvious. You know,

497
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: many people will say that there is a sexual connotation there,

498
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: that there is an attempt to disfigure an individual when

499
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: you attack their their sexual being if you will, And

500
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: in this case, her her breast was essentially mutilated. But

501
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: if that was not bad enough, Ms Janis also had

502
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: the letters F A T carved into her lower chest

503
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: and into her abdomen um. This injury is extensive. Uh.

504
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: The letters F and A are essentially to the right

505
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: of the mid line, which is the middle of the body,

506
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: just and they kind of involved the mid line as well.

507
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: Someone took the time to take the tip of that knife,

508
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: remember the knife that we've talked about extensively that I

509
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: believe is kind of robust, it's kind of sturdy, and

510
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: take the tip of that knife and go down just

511
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: shot an inch, uh, for the letters F and A,

512
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: dragging that tip through the tissue down to the bone,

513
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: if you will, and kind of laying out these letters

514
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: side by side. But then as you cross over the

515
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 1: mid line you get to the letter T. They took

516
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: more time with this, jackie. Uh. This the incised area

517
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: that involved the letter T went down even deeper, almost

518
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: like they were taking more time, you know, to kind

519
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: of put their stamp on this. In finality, can you

520
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: imagine taking that knife and dragging it across to do

521
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 1: the crossbar on the T and then down and these

522
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: these letters are several inches in length and width, and

523
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: it again it goes to this factor of time. Who

524
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: who in their right mind? And I think that that's

525
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: a valid question here, right mind, um would have taken

526
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: the time to do something so grotesque to this young

527
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: woman in this environment where they could, you know, just

528
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: plainly be seen. And then it's kind of the in

529
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: final with with her body. If I just want folks

530
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: to really picture this so that you can understand what

531
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: has happened. If you will go you know, everybody has

532
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: a sternom. It's that solid flat bone that's right in

533
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: the center of your chest. If you'll go to the

534
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: base of your stern room, there's a little area down there.

535
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: It's called the xyphoid process. It's kind of a little

536
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 1: cartilaginous body. It kind of it's the terminus if you

537
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: will of your of your breastbone, move from there all

538
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: the way down to your pubic bone. Um. Miss Janice

539
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: was actually sliced from that point at the zyphoid all

540
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: the way down to her pubis. And this injury went

541
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: so deep, Jackie, that loops of her intestines or bowels

542
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: were actually hanging out. And again in this is really

543
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: hard to hear, I know, but in the report of

544
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 1: the forensic pathologists, the pathologists actually noted that there was

545
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,719
Speaker 1: hemorrhage in the bowel. That gives you an indication she

546
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: might not have had an awareness of it, but her

547
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: heart was beating. Remember, we're not necessarily going to hemorrhage

548
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: if our heart is not beating. And so that's that

549
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: really paints this horrible picture of what this young woman

550
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: went through. So are you telling me, Joe, that she

551
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: was still alive when this happened. Yeah, I think that.

552
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: I think that we can look back on a lot

553
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: of these injuries and say that she had at least

554
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: some kind of level of awareness of what was happening.

555
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 1: A lot of these injuries that have been noted over

556
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: the course of her body have areas of hemorrhage, and

557
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: some of these things are gonna be postmortem that the

558
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: physician doesn't go into great detail. But the detail that

559
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,120
Speaker 1: this individual does go into relative to these injuries or

560
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 1: any number of them where there was in fact hemorrhage

561
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: involving uh these insults or injuries. Remember, let's think back

562
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: to what I said about the hemorrhage and in in the

563
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: neck relative to these these muscles, Uh, that are adjacent

564
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: to the to the cervical spawn. Uh, these skeletal support muscles.

565
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: And then the pathologist makes note of this, these hemorrhagic

566
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: areas in a bowl. I mean, can any of us.

567
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: I mean, these are areas that you get into that

568
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: when when you're undergoing surgery. Uh, you're you're under your

569
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 1: you have anesthesia that's being applied to you, so that

570
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: there is no awareness whatsoever with her, With miss Janis,

571
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: she would have had she would have an awareness of

572
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: what was being done to her, at least for some time.

573
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 1: We can only hope that mercifully, maybe she lost consciousness,

574
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: and I think that she probably did. But in the meantime, uh,

575
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: she was just really and totally ripped the shreds. In

576
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: this case, we know with the injuries that she sustained,

577
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: there was particular mutilation damage to the tattoo area on

578
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: her back, to her breast, to her face. I know

579
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 1: you're not a psychologist, Joe, but you've been studying forensics

580
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 1: for a very long time. Does this say to us

581
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: that this was much as much as a psychological a

582
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: tortuous attack as it was just a physical frenzy? This

583
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: this goes deep, deep down into psychopathology because when you

584
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: when you try to I mean, let's face it, when

585
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: we meet friends and loved ones, the first thing we

586
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: noticed about them are going to be their faces, right,

587
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: It's that it's that identifier that we have as as

588
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: human beings, would look into their eyes, we speak to them.

589
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: What was destroyed on her, well, her eyelids were sliced,

590
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: her mouth was cut open down to the to the

591
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: fatty layer, and then you're gonna mutilate a breast. At

592
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: least these things are specific identifiers that that you know,

593
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: identify our humanity right, who we are as people. The

594
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: tattoo is significant because that's something that she would have

595
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: had to have paid someone, and after she had picked

596
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: this design out that was unique to her, that she

597
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: that she loved that she I mean, she loved it

598
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 1: to the point where she's walking around with it every day.

599
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 1: Why would you go to the point to try to

600
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 1: destroy that? Well, you know, I submit, And again, like

601
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: you said, I'm no psychologist, but I've been around a

602
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,720
Speaker 1: lot of cases where people have been ripped to shreds.

603
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: And when you go after their specific identity, when you

604
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: try to rob them of their individual person, that says

605
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: a lot about the perpetrator. I think the question that

606
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,320
Speaker 1: we have to ask is, how would you even begin

607
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: to measure this level of rage and I think to

608
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: a great degree hatred in order to just absolutely ripped

609
00:36:55,360 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: this young woman to shred um Joseph Scott Morgan and

610
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: this his body backs h