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Speaker 1: Cools Media. Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff.

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Speaker 1: You're a weekly reminder that when there's bad things happening,

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Speaker 1: there's good things happening too. And this is also the

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Speaker 1: only podcast that is willing to talk about crime and

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Speaker 1: or sex. Most podcasts shy away from those topics. I

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Speaker 1: believe I've never heard a podcast before. I am your host,

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Speaker 1: Margaret Kiljoy, and with me today is my guest Rachel

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Speaker 1: and Julie.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 1: How are you Hi.

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Speaker 2: I'm so happy to be here, Margaret, thank you for

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Speaker 2: the invitation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Rachel is both my friend and also the author

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Speaker 1: of russ Belt Fem which is a pretty amazing memoir.

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Speaker 1: And you have a new book coming out, Is that true?

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Speaker 2: I do, in like a little less than a year.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: It's called The New Sex Wars, Towards a Feminism with Teeth.

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Speaker 2: It's coming out from PM Press and I'm literally just

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Speaker 2: like finishing it officially tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: It's exciting. Hell yeah, which is in the past by

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Speaker 1: the time y'all are listening. Yeah, so it's done, It'll

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Speaker 1: be done. Yeah, I'm going to call you and bug

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Speaker 1: you about that. So oh and then the other voice

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Speaker 1: you're hearing is Sophie Rae Lichterman, who is named after

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Speaker 1: a tree. Sophie's our producer. Hey Sophie, how are you?

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Speaker 1: Or is the tree named after me? I think probably

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Speaker 1: the tree is named after you. It depends on what tree.

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Speaker 1: It is so funny. Shout out to the listener who

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Speaker 1: made a plaque, a breast plaque that says this tree

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Speaker 1: is named Sophie Rae Lichterman. I love it so much.

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Speaker 1: This week, I thought we would talk about sex workers

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Speaker 1: and sex work organizing, and more specifically, I thought we

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Speaker 1: would talk about the Lusty Lady, the most famous organized

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Speaker 1: sex workplace in the country. You've heard of the Lusty Lady,

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Speaker 1: I sure have. I sure just call it the most

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Speaker 1: famous thing I've You can kind of set you up

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Speaker 1: with that one, of Sorry, it makes sense that it's

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Speaker 1: the most famous organized place in the country because for

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Speaker 1: a long time it was the only one. Actually, in fact,

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Speaker 1: I believe was the only one the entire time it existed.

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Speaker 1: I think that's right. Almost everything I read said it

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Speaker 1: was the first unionized strip club in the country. But

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Speaker 1: then one thing I read said that there was a

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Speaker 1: unionized strip club in San Diego for three years before that,

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Speaker 1: But we'll talk about that later. What do you know

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Speaker 1: about the Lusty Lady? What are you coming in with?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm really excited that this is our topic. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: So I first heard about the Lusty Lady. I think

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Speaker 2: maybe like my first year of grad school and I

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Speaker 2: had a great friend, Melody Hoffman. Shout out Melody former may.

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Speaker 2: I had a podcast with her too, so shout out

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Speaker 2: to podcasts.

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Speaker 1: If no they get enough credit.

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Speaker 2: We were doing podcasts before it was like, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: cool and full of white bros. But anyway, she was

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Speaker 2: really into sex worker organizing and I think she was

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Speaker 2: the one who first introduced me to them. So there

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Speaker 2: was a documentary about it that I watched. And I

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Speaker 2: also teach college classes, and I taught it in a

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Speaker 2: lot of my classes. But I you know, when you're

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Speaker 2: teaching a review of feminism class, you get to spend

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Speaker 2: like tiny bits of time on each little thing, right,

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Speaker 2: and you dive so deep. So I'm sure you are

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Speaker 2: full of anecdotes that I don't know. But I do

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Speaker 2: know whole lot about sex work beause I'm also a

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Speaker 2: former sex worker. So I'm super stoked to learn more

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Speaker 2: and talk more.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't sure whether I should say that for you,

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Speaker 1: so I appreciate you coming out about that, happy to share.

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Speaker 1: So the shortest version of the story is that in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, the workers at a peep show in

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Speaker 1: San Francisco voted to unionize, and then in two thousand

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Speaker 1: and three they bought the place off its old owners

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Speaker 1: and became the first worker owned, unionized peep show in

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Speaker 1: the country. They managed to stay open for ten years,

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Speaker 1: longer than I believe, pretty much all their competition, and

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Speaker 1: then they were put under by their landlord, who is

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Speaker 1: building a monopoly of all the strip clubs in the

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Speaker 1: city and frankly all over the country, and honestly lasting

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Speaker 1: to twenty thirteen as a peep show in an era

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Speaker 1: of internet pornography, is it's pretty impressive. Mm hm. I

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Speaker 1: usually start with context by going way back in time,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to do that in a little bit,

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Speaker 1: But first I wanted to start with the present day.

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Speaker 1: I want to start about some sex worker organizing that's

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Speaker 1: happening right now in Nevada. Have you heard about this?

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Speaker 2: I have, but only a little bit, So tell me more.

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Speaker 1: Well, okay, this is one of the problems that whenever

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Speaker 1: you cover like current News. All I have is the

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Speaker 1: sum of like, I don't know, eight or ten articles, right,

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Speaker 1: I read everything I could find about it, which is

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Speaker 1: only so much, you know, But before we talk about that,

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Speaker 1: I need the context. On the context. We are going

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Speaker 1: to talk about how sex work is criminalized because it

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Speaker 1: deeply affects the rights of its workers. Sex work. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you've never heard this one before. It's called the

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Speaker 1: oldest profession in the world, but it's also one of

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Speaker 1: the most heavily criminalized professions in the world. It's always

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Speaker 1: a little frustrating when people are like, ah, yes, it's

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Speaker 1: the oldest job, and you're like, why is it illegal?

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Speaker 1: That is frustrating. Yeah, I can imagine it's worth understanding

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Speaker 1: the difference between decriminalization, which is what sex worker advocacy

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Speaker 1: groups as well as human rights advocates and feminists and

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Speaker 1: labor organizers promote. Most feminists, to be clear, I'm a

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Speaker 1: little bit no true scotsman in here, and I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: because I mean, like, obviously, if you're feminasty supports sex workers,

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Speaker 1: that's actually unfair. And actually you and I have had

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Speaker 1: conversations about the ideas of how we should accept that

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Speaker 1: bad feminist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so credit to Sophie Lewis for writing a whole

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Speaker 2: book called Enemy Feminisms.

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Speaker 1: That was it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, where you know these so swarf sex worker exclusionary

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Speaker 2: radical feminists and turfs trans exclusionary radical feminists along with

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Speaker 2: white supremacists, women suffrage, US feminists and a whole history

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Speaker 2: of women who have organized on the basis of gender

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Speaker 2: liberation and really race or sexist or sex work exclusionary

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Speaker 2: ways are part of feminist history. So swarf feminists there

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Speaker 2: are some of the biggest battles that sex workers have

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Speaker 2: to fight because they're so loud and aggressive against this work.

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Speaker 1: No, it is so interesting too, because I think very

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Speaker 1: similar to turfs. There's almost the ven diagram of turfs

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Speaker 1: and swarfs is not a complete circle. But that's only

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Speaker 1: because Andrea Dworkin exists, right, who is a swarf but

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Speaker 1: not turf just not better.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we would see if she were alive today,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, she's she didn't explicitly come out with anything

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Speaker 2: super churfy back then.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, fair enough, But it's so interesting because turfs or swarfs,

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Speaker 1: they come in ostensibly from the left and then open

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Speaker 1: up the space that is then taken over by right

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Speaker 1: wing voices, right and so like, being anti trans was

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Speaker 1: part of a leftist conversation for a little while, and

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Speaker 1: now it's a right wing thing. It's just entirely a

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Speaker 1: right wing thing where the Turfs are like marching with Nazis,

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Speaker 1: and it's just it's nice when they're honest. But yeah, anyway,

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Speaker 1: in general, there's decriminalization, which is what people that I

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Speaker 1: agree with advocate, and then there's legalization, which is usually

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Speaker 1: promoted by well meaning or not well meaning outsiders to

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Speaker 1: the work. Decriminalization means get rid of the weird specific

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Speaker 1: laws around sex work and treat it like any other job.

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Speaker 1: Legalization means set up a unique legal framework to allow

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Speaker 1: sex work to happen. Legalization usually looks like permitting health screenings,

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Speaker 1: government surveillance of workplaces, and things like that. And I

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Speaker 1: want to kind of go through some of those points.

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Speaker 1: For example, in Germany, sex work is legalized and sex workers,

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Speaker 1: unlike other workers, have to register and carry a little

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Speaker 1: specific permit, a prostitute ID card. Legalization often requires mandatory

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Speaker 1: STI checks because it plays well people's fears people believe incorrectly.

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Speaker 1: As we'll talk about that workers are STI vectors. These

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Speaker 1: fears are unfounded as far as all scientific evidence that

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Speaker 1: exists has to say. For example, in twenty twelve, the

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Speaker 1: World Journal of AIDS published a study from Australia and

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Speaker 1: Australia is a good test case for what decriminalization versus

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Speaker 1: legalization looks like because half of the country is legalized

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Speaker 1: sex work and the other half is decriminalized sex work.

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Speaker 1: In the legalized half of the country, there's mandatory STI

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Speaker 1: screening of workers. The study found that quote mandatory testing

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Speaker 1: of HIV and STIs among sex workers in Australia has

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Speaker 1: proven to be a barrier to otherwise successful HIV and

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Speaker 1: STIP education prevention, and free and anonymous testing and treatment.

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Speaker 1: The outcomes of mandatory testing are counter productive to reducing

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Speaker 1: HIV and STI rates, do not reach the intended target group,

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Speaker 1: and are costly and inefficient.

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Speaker 2: That makes sense. I just love how sex work politics.

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Speaker 2: They help with critical thinking so much because so often

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Speaker 2: things related to sex work, like laws and policy, like

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Speaker 2: they seem good and then you look deeper and you're like, oh, wait,

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Speaker 2: the state having the authority to do these things is

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Speaker 2: really really bad, and et cetera.

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Speaker 1: So it's just yeah, no, that's that's such a good point, right,

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Speaker 1: because it's it would be pretty easy to convince a

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Speaker 1: well meaning person like, oh it's fine. I guess if

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Speaker 1: people are doing that, as long as they're like tested

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Speaker 1: all the time and the government's up in their business

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Speaker 1: make sure everyone's safe, you know, and then we can

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Speaker 1: just like either think that through, talk to the people

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Speaker 1: doing it, or look at social sciences that study this

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Speaker 1: in a you know, peer reviewed way. Right, that same

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Speaker 1: report said, quote, epidemiology and research consistently show that sex

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Speaker 1: workers have lower rates of STIs than the non sex

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Speaker 1: working population. And this makes sense. It's the same like

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Speaker 1: thinking things through, right, You're like a sex worker is

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Speaker 1: going to understand safer sex and risk and handle things

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Speaker 1: with like they're literally professionals. I suspect that electricians shock

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Speaker 1: themselves while changing outlets less than di wires, right, hmm,

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Speaker 1: it's the thing they do, so they know how to

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Speaker 1: do it safely. Yeah. No, it's a good metaphor. I

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Speaker 1: was talking to electrician today while writing scripts. That's so funny.

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Speaker 1: It's so funny. I was like, Oh, you really know

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Speaker 1: what is and isn't safe down to very specific details, right,

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Speaker 1: And Legalization also gets the state involved, which means oversight,

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Speaker 1: which means policing, which means that sex workers are fined, arrested,

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Speaker 1: a veiled, and generally harassed, even if the work itself

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Speaker 1: is legal. If it's like, if a CoP's following you,

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Speaker 1: you're breaking some kind of law. You know, if a

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Speaker 1: cop decides you have there's going to be something wrong

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Speaker 1: with your car. Right. In contrast, decriminalization is just removing

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Speaker 1: the laws that make sex work criminal, the laws that say, well,

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Speaker 1: you can sell your labor, but not that labor, and

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Speaker 1: you can sell your body, but only in ways that

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Speaker 1: we say you can. Decriminalization would stop making sex workers

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Speaker 1: a specific criminalized class of workers, which means they would

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Speaker 1: get the same labor protections as everybody else, which isn't enough, right,

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Speaker 1: we all need more labor protections. But we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about unions and worker cooperatives for like the whole

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Speaker 1: week anyway. So, and it's not a fringe idea decriminalization.

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Speaker 1: Like the first time I ran across people talking about this,

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Speaker 1: it was sex worker friends, and I was like, ah,

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Speaker 1: I get it, this is like what sex workers want,

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Speaker 1: because all my friends are anarchists. But those Other anarchist

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Speaker 1: organizations that believe that sex work should be decriminalized include

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Speaker 1: the Joint United Nations Program on HIV and AIDS, the

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Speaker 1: World Health Organization, human Rights Watch, and Amnesty International, all

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Speaker 1: those crazy radical groups.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's weird to sometimes be in agreement with institutions

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Speaker 2: that don't always make the right call, but they made

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Speaker 2: the right call on this one.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah. Actually the World Bank was on this list too,

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Speaker 1: and I couldn't bring myself to shout it out. I

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Speaker 1: was like, I've been arrested protesting them before, but not

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Speaker 1: on this issue, right, you know. And there's also the

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Speaker 1: dreaded Swedish model that less well meaning people like to

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Speaker 1: trot out. It's a method of criminalization that condescendingly criminalizes

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Speaker 1: the purchase of sex work but not the selling of it.

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Speaker 1: And this got its start in nineteen ninety nine in Sweden.

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Speaker 1: You look like you have something you want to say

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Speaker 1: about absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Should well, I mean, I'm sure you're about to share,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, it's really misguided. It's another thing where it's

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Speaker 2: like it sounds good on paper to people who have

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Speaker 2: this concept of people who exchange money for sex as

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Speaker 2: like these horrific monsters I mean to bring up the

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Speaker 2: sort of elephant in the current climate right now, Like

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Speaker 2: there are Jeffrey Epstein's he existed, you know that that exists, right,

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Speaker 2: and there are like ordinary randos who like are just

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Speaker 2: you know, looking for some companionship. I mean, we can

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Speaker 2: get into sort of different types of people who purchase

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Speaker 2: sexual labor. But all of this is to say for

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Speaker 2: a lot of people, they're like, oh, the quote John's.

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Speaker 2: I generally don't use that language. I call people clients.

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Speaker 2: But the quote johns, you know, they're the bad ones.

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Speaker 2: And we want to save and protect the sex workers

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Speaker 2: who you know are misguided and you know, if we

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Speaker 2: could just get them into you know, a fast food restaurant,

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Speaker 2: then things working out of minds yep, exactly, So you know,

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Speaker 2: we'll save them, we'll protect them, and we will just

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Speaker 2: punish the bad Johns. The problem with that is that

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Speaker 2: let's say the cop you know, busts people in a

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Speaker 2: hotel room and there is one illegal substance. Let's say

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Speaker 2: there is a joint in the room. Yeah, it's grounds

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Speaker 2: for arresting both of them. Let's say one of those

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Speaker 2: people is undocumented, grounds for arresting both of them. Let's

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Speaker 2: say the cop is racist. We've never heard of that before.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's a hypothetical. Yeah, yeah, right, just hypothetically.

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Speaker 2: The ways in which that model still ends up criminalizing

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Speaker 2: and punishing.

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Speaker 1: Sex workers is a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it still leads to more surveillance and police

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Speaker 2: presence in sex workers' lives, which is never a good thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so that's a frustrating solution. Scare quotes. No, totally.

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Speaker 1: And in this one I read about the feminist groups

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Speaker 1: in Sweden that pushed for this to happen, right, and

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Speaker 1: I believe some of them have kind of you can't

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Speaker 1: did because they actually look at evidence, and you know,

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Speaker 1: our feminists just were really wrong in a pretty dangerous way.

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Speaker 1: Anytime you bring the state and incarceration into like your

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Speaker 1: method of trying to solve problems, you got to be

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Speaker 1: real careful. You're right. The Global Network of Sex Work

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Speaker 1: Projects put out a guide called the Real Impact of

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Speaker 1: the Swedish Model on sex Workers. And just as far

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Speaker 1: as that title goes, one of the things I really

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Speaker 1: love about nineteenth century titles is that would be the

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Speaker 1: title of a book, not a subtitle. In like the

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century, it'd be about three times as long as

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Speaker 1: that in the nineteenth century, and we've moved away from that.

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Speaker 1: We've moved to these very simple I do this too.

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Speaker 1: That's not sure. I name my books really obscure or caneless,

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Speaker 1: sunding things, but anyway, I like that. The nonprofit report

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Speaker 1: is where you still get titles, but to say what

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Speaker 1: they are. The real impact of the Swedish model on

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Speaker 1: sex workers does what it says on the tip. That's

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Speaker 1: so true. They put it pretty plainly in quote. This

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Speaker 1: model has damaging consequences for sex workers' health rights and

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Speaker 1: living conditions. However, these negative impacts are rarely discussed and

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Speaker 1: sex workers' voices are consistently silenced. If we were being

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Speaker 1: really clever, you would start to say something and then

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Speaker 1: I would interrupt you here, but thanks, I really appreciate

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Speaker 1: going along with that one. I had a frustratingly hard

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Speaker 1: time getting an exact picture of what sex work legality

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Speaker 1: was like in Sweden before this bill, there was a

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Speaker 1: bunch of different statutes that affected sex work, but they

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Speaker 1: all have been challenged and coret at various times. But basically,

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Speaker 1: the nineteen ninety nine law pushed workers underground because there's

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Speaker 1: now fewer clients, right, because only people willing to do

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Speaker 1: crime are going to become clients, which leads to more competition.

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Speaker 1: So workers had way less negotiating power with clients because

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Speaker 1: it's a labor issue. It's also a feminist issue. It's

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Speaker 1: all kinds of issues, but it's a labor relations issue.

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Speaker 1: If there's were possible customers, then you have less say

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Speaker 1: about what's happening. It also made screening clients way harder,

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Speaker 1: making workers substantially less safe. And I think that's something

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Speaker 1: that maybe folks don't know, is that a lot of

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Speaker 1: sex workers use various methods of screening their clients to

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Speaker 1: figure out who's safe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we actually have I don't know if folks heard

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Speaker 2: about the tea app debacle. Did people hear about this?

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Speaker 1: Oh? I didn't know.

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Speaker 2: The tea app was an app created by a well

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Speaker 2: intentioned young man whose mom like. He was doing it

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Speaker 2: because his mom was on the dating apps and having

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Speaker 2: bad experiences, and he wanted to create an app where

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Speaker 2: women could sort of share the tea the gossip on

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Speaker 2: the men that they were finding on these apps too,

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Speaker 2: you know, on a spectrum of sort of keeping people

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Speaker 2: safe to like like shit talking so you know, it

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Speaker 2: ranged from like this man assaulted me to this man's

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Speaker 2: mattresses on the floor stuff.

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Speaker 1: I would want to know that before I want on

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Speaker 1: a date with a guy.

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Speaker 2: Sure, yes, but they are different, that's true. They are different,

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Speaker 2: that's true. And some of the sort of safety precautions

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Speaker 2: I scare quoted that again for listeners who can't see me,

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Speaker 2: were things like does this person have a criminal record?

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Speaker 2: It does this, I'm trying to forget the other sort

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Speaker 2: of thing you could search and you know, as hopefully

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Speaker 2: people know listening to this that in the US, you know,

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Speaker 2: people have criminal records for all sorts of things, disproportionately

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Speaker 2: people of color and poor people, and you know, people

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Speaker 2: who are criminalized, and more importantly, like most people who

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Speaker 2: have experienced harm will know that there are a lot

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Speaker 2: of like good on paper, guys who can still do

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Speaker 2: you know, who don't have a criminal record, who will

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Speaker 2: still do really harmful things because.

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Speaker 1: People don't go to jail if they do the kind

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Speaker 1: of things that people do anyway, you know, like.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, and this is part of anti trafficking legislation too,

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Speaker 2: is like it's in theory it punishes people at very

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Speaker 2: rarely even does that, but it doesn't prevent these things,

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Speaker 2: and like you're saying, it drives things further underground. But

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Speaker 2: to very quickly finish the t app thing even worse

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Speaker 2: than just all those critiques of it, somebody on four

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Speaker 2: Chan got a hold of because in order for women

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Speaker 2: to sign up to the app, they had to like

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Speaker 2: give their ideas.

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Speaker 1: Oh I remember this now.

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Speaker 2: So then all of their ideas were exposed on you know,

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Speaker 2: in Cellville, and it just really broke my heart because

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Speaker 2: sex workers have this very we have what we call

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Speaker 2: a bad date list that exists on a platform I

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Speaker 2: will never say the name of out loud, and it's

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Speaker 2: completely private. It's not like let me publicize this and

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Speaker 2: make jokes on social media. It's like incredibly secure and

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Speaker 2: you put people's names and information and you make sure

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Speaker 2: that if something bad happens with a client that that

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Speaker 2: is reported, and so sex workers can search, you know,

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Speaker 2: if they get a client. I also just very quickly

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Speaker 2: want to say, we're talking a lot about what we

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Speaker 2: call full service sex work, so escorts. The sort of

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Speaker 2: archaic term is prostitution, and that exists, you know, on

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Speaker 2: a spectrum of street based workers who are often more

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Speaker 2: economically disenfranchised, you know, poor women, women of color, trans

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Speaker 2: women disproportionately in those sectors. And you know, harmon violence

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Speaker 2: is increased because it is in situations of poverty everywhere.

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Speaker 2: And then there are you know, quote higher end workers,

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Speaker 2: which is silly language, right, but then there's also stripping

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Speaker 2: and dancers which we'll be talking about soon. Yeah, totally,

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Speaker 2: and online workers and this client stuff like it just

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Speaker 2: it doesn't translate all the time and across all of

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Speaker 2: these different things.

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Speaker 1: So I just want to clarify that too. No, totally,

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Speaker 1: But do you know what the tea is about why

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Speaker 1: I'm not good at doing ad transitions sometimes is that

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Speaker 1: I'm not always good at doing ad transitions, even though

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Speaker 1: it's the part of this job I take the most

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Speaker 1: pride in. But here's the ads. We're back. We are

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Speaker 1: indeed back. You will be shocked to know, Rachel, that

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Speaker 1: the Swedish model didn't impact the levels of sex work

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Speaker 1: done in Sweden. It just made it more dangerous. Well,

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Speaker 1: there it is. And despite the overwhelming testimony and evidence

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Speaker 1: that sex work decriminalization is the way to go, in

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Speaker 1: my mind, it's also just like a it's just like

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Speaker 1: a basic ethical thing you just kind of can't tell

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Speaker 1: someone that they can't if jobs are allowed. This is

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Speaker 1: a job, you know, like, oh, consenting adults can't do that.

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Speaker 1: And all of the arguments against sex work being like,

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Speaker 1: oh it's exploita, blah blah blah. They're all just literally

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Speaker 1: arguments against jobs. Yeah, and no one's willing to acknowledge that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the best slogan is sex work is

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Speaker 2: work and work is bad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think exactly. Yeah, totally. So despite all the

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Speaker 1: evidence that sex work decriminalization is the way to go,

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Speaker 1: do you have any countries of decriminalized sex work? I

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Speaker 1: don't know that. How many? Two and a half?

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Speaker 2: Wow? Who gets the half Australia Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean there's some countries that half decriminalized it, where

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Speaker 1: they've like decriminalized everything but oregonized. Like there's like places

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Speaker 1: where you're not allowed to own a brothel, but you

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Speaker 1: can buy and sell sex otherwise. It's like, yeah, but

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Speaker 1: two countries, New Zealand and Belgium have decriminalized sex work,

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Speaker 1: and half of the I'm going to call them states

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Speaker 1: because I didn't look up what they're called in Australia

404
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Speaker 1: have decriminalized sex work. There's a solid number of countries

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Speaker 1: that have legalized, that is to say, government regulated sex work.

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Speaker 1: And there's countries where sex work is legal as long

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Speaker 1: as you don't organize it like a business. Like I

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Speaker 1: was saying, in the United States of America, the freest

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Speaker 1: country on earth, we have some of the most restrictive

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Speaker 1: laws in the world about sex work. I think people

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Speaker 1: like might have thought we were like normal. We're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: everyone kind of does this except in Amsterdam or something.

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Speaker 1: You know, like half the world is as bad as us.

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Speaker 2: But like, yeah, well, because we love our police in prisons,

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Speaker 2: and so the more things we can criminal.

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Speaker 1: The better, especially poor women. Those are some people we

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Speaker 1: fucking love to criminalize. It's really true. Anything we see

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Speaker 1: as vice. Ooh, that's not going well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, are you going to talk about backpage and Cesta Fasta?

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Speaker 1: I am not. Can I jump in with that? Yeah, totally? Okay.

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Speaker 2: So the just in terms of like harsh us stuff

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Speaker 2: Sesta Fasta, which Kamala Harris passed and loved and promoted,

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Speaker 2: so a lot of sex workers were critical of her.

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Speaker 2: In addition to all the many other reasons to be

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Speaker 2: critical of her. What Cesta Fasta did is made it

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Speaker 2: harder to screen, as you were talking about before screening

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Speaker 2: clients because it shut down a lot of Internet sites

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Speaker 2: where sex workers would do the screening.

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Speaker 1: And these were laws that were passed.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Cesta fast is still in you can fact check that,

431
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 2: but as far as I know, Cesta Foster is still alive.

432
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 1: And well, yeah, no I believe so.

433
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so that you know, and sex workers find

434
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 2: a way. We have lots of channels to you know,

435
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 2: continue to try to keep each other safe, but it's

436
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 2: a lot harder because of sex to fasta.

437
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. I hate how a lot of We're gonna talk

438
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: about this a little bit later, but not enough, and

439
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: you mentioned this a little bit earlier. I hate how, like,

440
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 1: sex trafficking is a real thing and a real problem,

441
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 1: but it's such a code where it's practically a dog

442
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 1: whistle for just I hate sex workers. Yeah, when people

443
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 1: talk about like that, is there their concern is sex

444
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 1: trafficking because there's there's people who get arrested, Like I

445
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 1: talk to someone who got arrested for sex trafficking herself

446
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 1: because she went from one state to another to sleep

447
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 1: with someone for money. Yeah, you know, and like I

448
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 1: don't know anyway, Yeah, no, I mean.

449
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 2: And then like a sex worker helping another sex worker

450
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 2: find ways to stay safe could be considered a pimp

451
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 2: because she's like helping another person learn the screening site

452
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 2: for example, like here's how it feels a way to

453
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 2: stay safe. That person teaching that other person like ye

454
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:57,400
Speaker 2: could be considered part of trafficking.

455
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: But there is some legalized full service sex work in

456
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 1: the United States in the freest state in the country, Nevada.

457
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's actually the freest state and

458
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 1: any other context, and that we're going to talk about

459
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:18,479
Speaker 1: how its labor conditions are terrible, but there is some

460
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: legalized sex work in Nevada where you can buy and

461
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 1: sell sex work in licensed brothels and six rural counties.

462
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 1: It's legal in ten, but only six of them actually

463
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: have brothels. So there are nineteen legal brothels in the

464
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: United States as of September twenty twenty three, and a

465
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 1: couple weeks ago, the news broke that one of those

466
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: nineteen brothels is unionizing Sherry's Ranch outside the bustling city

467
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 1: of parump Nevada, population forty four thousand people. How do

468
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 1: you spell parump. Yeah, I might be pronouncing this wrong.

469
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: I don't know. Pah rump. I mean, how perfect is that? Yeah?

470
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: We love a double entendra. Yeah. In sex Workerland. It's

471
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: about an hour from Vegas, so it's considered part of

472
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: the Vegas area. Sex work is not legal in whatever

473
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: county Las Vegas is in, which is probably Las Vegas County.

474
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: I don't know how to do my job. And this

475
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 1: ranch styles itself as a sex resort rather than just

476
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 1: a brothel. It's an upscale kind of place, or at

477
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: least it claims to be, and some of the interior

478
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: photos look up scale, and some of the exterior photos

479
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 1: do not look upscale. There have been brothels in that

480
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: area in Perump for decades at least, probably longer before

481
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: the limited brothel legalization in nineteen seventy one, there were

482
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: just sort of informal brothels and trailers in this little

483
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: crossroads town. Then by the early nineteen eighties, one spot

484
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: gets called Sherry's Ranch, and then its current owner, who's

485
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: not named Sherry, a Chicago cop named Chuck Lee. Oh no, yeah,

486
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 1: wompomp Chuck Lee bought it in two thousand and one

487
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,239
Speaker 1: and rebranded it as an upscale sex resort run by

488
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: a cop named Chuck Lee. Oh gosh. The workers are

489
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,959
Speaker 1: organizing as the United Brothel Workers as part of the CWA,

490
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 1: the Communication Workers of America. And I'm more aware of

491
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: the labor conditions than strip clubs than brothels, since there's

492
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: nineteen brothels in the United States, but based on what

493
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 1: I'm reading, it sounds comparable. It is the same problems,

494
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 1: types of problems that I've talked to dancers about. The

495
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 1: workers at Sherry Ranch are independent contractors rather than employees.

496
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,680
Speaker 1: The bosses they're like, no, no, no, no, Our contractors

497
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 1: prefer their independence, but all of the workers are like, no,

498
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: we would like to be employees, so we have labor

499
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 1: protections please m hm. And I'm suspecting this is my

500
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: inference here. The brothel owners probably took notes from the

501
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: way that dancers at strip clubs were treated, and they

502
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: use very similar loopholes to make sure workers have the

503
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: worst of both worlds of employee and freelancer.

504
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 2: That's like adjunct teaching, which is the thing I have

505
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 2: also done at colleges, and it's really bad, and you

506
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 2: get paid a lot worse than you do than when

507
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 2: you're a sex worker.

508
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why it's good to know. Their schedules and

509
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: rates are set by the brothel, which takes fifty percent

510
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: of their tips and another thirty percent off the top

511
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 1: if any customer shows up in the complementary limo service

512
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: that is provided by the brothel, which most customers do

513
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: because it basically is like, hey, we're a Vegas brothel.

514
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: You just got to get in this limo for an

515
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 1: hour in order to come here, right. Workers generally leave

516
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: with about thirty percent of what their customer pays them woof.

517
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: And I believe that on top of that, they're paying

518
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: for their own room and board at the ranch themselves,

519
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: although I wasn't able to confirm that, but I read

520
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,959
Speaker 1: one thing that implied that. And since they're not employees,

521
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: the brothel doesn't have to contribute to their taxes, so

522
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: they're the same double taxes that freelancers get hit with.

523
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: The workers stay for a few weeks at a time

524
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: at the ranch, and while they're there, their laptops are confiscated,

525
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: their email, I believe, is monitored, the audio of their

526
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: rooms is monitored to eavesdrop on the negotiations with customers

527
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: to making sure they're not like, give me some money

528
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: that I'm going to keep, make sure that Sherry and

529
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: the cop don't get it. That's not the direct quote,

530
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 1: but you know, and for years the workers kind of

531
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: didn't think they could really do anything about it because

532
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: of this tenuous legalization. Their work is barely legal, and

533
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: that gives their employers so much power and negotiations. So again,

534
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: not good for workers. Nope. Then, in December of last year,

535
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five, for those of you listening in the

536
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: future on a scavenged technology device left over after the

537
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: fallout from the bombs that dry in twenty thirty three,

538
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 1: but for us here in the present, in December of

539
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: last year, twenty twenty five, Sherry's ranch tried to force

540
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: a new contract onto everyone that was far and away

541
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: more exploitative. And I bet if you're thinking, I wonder

542
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: if AI is fucking over sex workers, the answer is yes,

543
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: it sure is. This new contract. This is funny because

544
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: this is actually similar to the contracts that a lot

545
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: of labor unions in all entertainment is dealing with right

546
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: now too right, It's like, you can't just get our

547
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: AI likeness for free, you know, this new contract would

548
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: allow the brothel to use the worker's likeness with a

549
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: quote irrevocable worldwide, perpetual royalty free, non exclusive license. It

550
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 1: also takes the power of attorney away from the workers

551
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: in case they produce any content like porn and don't

552
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: immediately transfer the intellectual property to the ranch. Wow, this

553
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: power of attorney extends after death. If someone shoots a

554
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 1: porn then dies, the ranch would still be able to

555
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: sign as them to transfer ownership over to them. Worker

556
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: Jupiter Jetson told the press, quote, this is how you

557
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: find yourself on a website offering AI companionship without ever

558
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: seeing a penny. So they decided to organize. And if

559
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: you want to organize, why am I bad at this today?

560
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: You know, if you had coolers on media, I wouldn't

561
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: even have to do this.

562
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 2: Organize your wallet to subscribe.

563
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: Rachel's got it today? Anyway, here's some ads and rebec

564
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: So the workers start trying to organize. They want fair contracts,

565
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: they want transparent fee structures, they want the right to

566
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: collective bargaining, and I suspect they probably don't want AI

567
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: companions of themselves being used for free and to perpetuty

568
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: after they die. If anyone, Sophie, I think I can

569
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: say this, if anyone makes an AI model of me

570
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: after I die, it's legal to kill the person who

571
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: makes that model. Is that correct? That's correct? Okay, I

572
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: just wanted to make sure. So now Jetson, who has

573
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: worked there for eight years, was fired alongside another worker

574
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: as soon as they started organizing, and then a third

575
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 1: worker was fired for refusing to sign the new contract.

576
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: Retaliatory firing is, of course, patently illegal, but incredibly common

577
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: across all industries, and the biggest battle they're facing right

578
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: now in their union drive is that they need to

579
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: be understood as employees, and they basically need to prove like, no,

580
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: we really are employees. You're just treating us like this

581
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: because you want to get away with some bullshit. And

582
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, I believe it was Sherry's Ranch, they

583
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: had a federal lawsuit to try and classify the workers

584
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: as workers, but it was settled out of court in

585
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, and I haven't found more information about

586
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: what the settlement looked like. Maybe there'll be more information

587
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: out by the time you read this, especially after the

588
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: bombs have fallen. Obviously, is that going to be the

589
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: main flashpoint that is going to cause the War of

590
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: twenty thirty three. But these workers, they have a precedent

591
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: for sex worker organizing, and that precedent isn't in Vegas,

592
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: but in another wild West den of Sin, San Francisco,

593
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: former Den of Sin.

594
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 2: I mean, it's actually full of real sin now, I know, right,

595
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 2: like really awful tech pros and the most intense wealth

596
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 2: disparities I've witnessed. I mean, I know there's amazing listeners

597
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 2: in SF right now, but man, every time I go

598
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 2: to that city recently, it's like very grim.

599
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,719
Speaker 1: I agree. Literally, the next line of my script was, Oh,

600
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: how the mighty have fallen? Oh how the money have fallen? Indeed,

601
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: rip to San Francisco of your.

602
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 2: Indeed, indeed, yeah, tell the people what it used to be.

603
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 1: Like, Well when I first went there in eighteen forty

604
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: nine in the gold Rush, because we are going back

605
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: to then. I'm trying to spread this rumor that I'm

606
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: a vampire and through the bombit Haymarket. You are, Yeah,

607
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: I think it's like one of those things where I

608
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 1: feel like the best way to hide is by liketing,

609
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,319
Speaker 1: like I'm a vampire, and everyone's like, yeah, whatever, you

610
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: fucking nerd, you are a vampire. No, no, yeah, exactly totally.

611
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 2: It actually makes like so much sense. I'm surprised I

612
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 2: have not heard that rumor sooner.

613
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why no one see me during the daylight.

614
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 1: So I've talked a little bit before on the show

615
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: about the history of San Francisco and that it was

616
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: sort of a wild Western city form. Originally it was

617
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: a tiny frontier wall. Originally it was occupied by the

618
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: Indigenous people from whom it was stolen. But you know,

619
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: in the United States sense, it was a tiny frontier

620
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: town until in eighteen forty nine the gold rush started

621
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: and the city became a boom town. And we've weirdly

622
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: talked about this chunk of San Francisco several times. If

623
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: you want to listen to our episode about the The

624
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: Spirit of the forty eight Ers, which is about the

625
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 1: refugees from Europe who came over in eighteen forty eight

626
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 1: after the failed revolution in Europe, and then we've talked

627
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 1: about it in our Wild Western Sex Work episodes with

628
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,920
Speaker 1: Courtney Cosack and probably other times. Oh and then a

629
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: whole bunch of like Stonewall episodes and anytime we talk

630
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: about gay stuff anyway. San Francisco, for a city that

631
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: I kind of dislike, you come up a lot, but

632
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: I think I kind of dislike it because I could

633
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: never afford to live in it. By the time I

634
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: started hanging out in the Bay, there were squats in

635
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: Oakland and Berkeley and not in San Francisco. Right, Okay,

636
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 1: So eighteen forty nine, there's a gold rush cities of Boomtown,

637
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: and it was always a place for sailors and gamblers

638
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: and sex workers and various na'er do wells and all

639
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: the good and bad ways. You had a red light

640
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: district called the Barbary Coast during the gold Rush. It

641
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: was full of dance halls and saloons and storefront opium shops.

642
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: Like like I think we kind of like see it

643
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: as like, ah, you know, it's like a like a

644
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: little sketchy place. Like no. I could literally walk into

645
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: the drug store and be like, hello, I would like

646
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 1: crime drugs please from the crime store that has a storefront,

647
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,720
Speaker 1: and they would be like, here's your crime. Organized crime

648
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 1: was there, of course, because when there's crime happening, there's

649
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 1: people who want to organize it and or profit off

650
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: of it. Ex cons from Australia New York showed up

651
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: and brought their gangs with them. The district's name was

652
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: a reference to North Africa's Barbary Coast, which was famous

653
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: for slavery and piracy crime. And at first I was like, well,

654
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 1: San Francisco wasn't actually a slave port in the traditional sense.

655
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 1: But there's two forms of non free work happening there.

656
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 1: One there's shanghai in happening. And this is continuing to

657
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 1: use old time eracist language like Barbary Coast and shanghai,

658
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: and shanghaiing is where you get drugged at a bar

659
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 1: and wake up on a ship and suddenly you're hired

660
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 1: as a sailor without your consent. WHOA. Yeah, this is

661
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 1: like really common all throughout the Western world and probably

662
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: other places, but that's the only place I've personally read

663
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: about it where you just are literally like, ah, I'm

664
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: out on the town and I got drunk. Oh there

665
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: was drugs in my drink. Oh, now I'm on a ship.

666
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: Oh a third of us are going to die on

667
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: this voyage. Yeah. The poor have never been treated very well.

668
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: I'm starting to think that the porscheite organized as a class.

669
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 1: H you might be onto something.

670
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 2: This also feels like another sort of I think myth

671
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 2: is that trafficking only has to do with sex, and

672
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 2: what you're saying, you know, is that it doesn't. And actually,

673
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 2: in the US, the most trafficked workers are agriculture workers

674
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 2: and domestic workers.

675
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:48,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, And unfortunately,

676
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 1: the other group of unfree thing happening in San Francisco

677
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: in the Barbary District Barbary Coast was enslaved Chinese sex

678
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 1: workers who were trafficked from China. And I've talked about

679
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: this a greater length and my sex work in the

680
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: Wild West episodes a couple of years ago, and it's

681
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 1: there's like these topics that every time I bring them

682
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: up on this show, I'm like, oh, crap, I got

683
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: to bring up the eugenics common among everybody in the

684
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: nineteenth century, or you know, whatever this thing is. And

685
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 1: sex trafficking is both a real problem and a boogeyman

686
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: brought up by anti sex work activists. They like advocate

687
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,320
Speaker 1: for laws that harm women and don't meaningfully impact sex trafficking.

688
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 2: But it was really yeah, great way to put it. Yeah,

689
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 2: both real and a boogeyman. Repeat that forever. Yeah.

690
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: People aren't very good at holding two thoughts at once.

691
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 2: People love nuance. People are really good readers and critical thinkers.

692
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 2: People can really think beyond short from video content. We're

693
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 2: really in like a rich time of human thought.

694
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: I often, I don't know if you're can be proud

695
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: of this or not. I often describe you as the

696
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: person who finally explained to me what dialectics meant.

697
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 2: You do give me that title, which I yeah, I guess, I'll,

698
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 2: I guess, I'll proudly.

699
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, but don't worry, audience. We're not going to explain

700
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: it right now. But it's basically this thing we're talking about,

701
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,240
Speaker 1: depending on which version of dialectors you use. But you're sorry.

702
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 1: It's like the amount of times I say the phrase

703
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: two things can be true at once. Yeah, and yeah,

704
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: that's the whole statement. Uh huh. Yeah, that's like all

705
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: you need to say. Sometimes people are like, yeah, but

706
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 1: what about this other thing, and you're like that seems

707
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 1: also true. Yeah, like congratulations, I can point out other

708
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 1: true things. M M and accordion is a free read instrument?

709
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: Is that relevant to what we're talking about Yeah, sorry,

710
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: there's an accordion in my line of sight. It's all

711
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,439
Speaker 1: I had the same instrument family as the harmonica, now

712
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: you know.

713
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 2: No, I know.

714
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: Wow, thank you for telling us. Yeah, you're welcome. So

715
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: the Barbary Coast of San Francisco was a pretty wild place,

716
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 1: and there's this other type of people who make money

717
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 1: off of like laschevious. I don't know how to pronounce

718
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: this word, like saltry, sordid things, you know, and it's

719
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: entertainment people like us right now, this isn't even an

720
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: ad pivot, but they've been doing this forever. A writer

721
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,800
Speaker 1: at the time, in eighteen seventy six, Benjamin E. Lloyd

722
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 1: wrote a book called Lights and Shades in San Francisco,

723
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 1: and it's available on archive dot org. It's linked in

724
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: the sources and by my read, this book was meant

725
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: to cash in on the sleaziness of San Francisco. But

726
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: much like so, instead of true crime podcast, what you

727
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: had at the time was people writing aghast moral condemnations

728
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 1: and like, let me tell you these horrible things that

729
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: people do, and they're like, oh and they did what

730
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 1: to the what? Oh? And people can imagine me making

731
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: facial expressions and handgesters as I do this and pretending

732
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,439
Speaker 1: to be above this vice while actually what they're doing

733
00:40:55,480 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: is participating in it. Sounds familiar. Yeah, this book is

734
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: even plagiarized. I think. Wow. In the introduction of the book,

735
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: they write much that this volume contains has been previously

736
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: offered to the public in print. So therefore we make

737
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,760
Speaker 1: no claim to originality. We have simply revived and endeavored

738
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: to renew. What a scam. I know, I love it.

739
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 1: They're just like the crime I'm doing is plagiarism to

740
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 1: try and sell books about sex from other books about sex.

741
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: And I really want to read this whole book at

742
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 1: some point. But this was me getting lost in context hole,

743
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 1: which is what I do every week. And then at

744
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: some point, right before I have to record, I have

745
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 1: to stop that. But to quote the book about the

746
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 1: Barbary Coast. So this is what people are saying in

747
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: eighteen seventy six, The Barbary Coast is the haunt of

748
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: the low and vile of every kind, the petty thief,

749
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 1: the house burglar, the tramp, the horror monger, leude women, cutthroats,

750
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 1: murders not murderers. Murderers are all here, licentiousness, debauchery, pollution.

751
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: I don't know what means in this context, but I

752
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:09,240
Speaker 1: believe it's some kind of moral pollution, loathsome disease, insanity

753
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: from dissipation, misery, poverty, wealth. I like that these are

754
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: the two stings right next to each other. Profanity, blasphemy

755
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 1: and death are there, and hell yawning to receive the

756
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: putrid mass is also there.

757
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 2: Hell yawning to receive the putrid mass. WHOA that goes hard?

758
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 1: Yeah? No, that was like. I found that quote in

759
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: an article about the Barbary Coast and I was like, no,

760
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: I need more ess. That's why I looked up the book.

761
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: That's a pretty incredible intro. And do you know what

762
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 1: this is? Again? Not an aatransiction. There's another group that

763
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 1: hung out there or a name of a group of people,

764
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 1: The gay Blades hung out there. Have you heard this

765
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 1: phrase before?

766
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I mean, is it another gay

767
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 2: hockey team shout out to heter rivalry?

768
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: Oh my god, but they would be gay blades. I

769
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: actually know only one of them, the Russian, is a

770
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 1: gay blade. Okay, I can't remember the names, but I

771
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: watched the whole first season amazing, you cried, Yeah, the

772
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: Russian is a gay blade, the Canadian is not. So

773
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: I was like, all right, what's a gay blade? And

774
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: this led me to realize I didn't know the history

775
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: of the word gay. Obviously it means joyful and happy

776
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 1: and old timey songs, but why homosexual. I'm like, oh,

777
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: you know, we're happy, go lucky, right, I don't know,

778
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: but I found a write up on a blog called

779
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 1: Historically Speaking, and it points out that, going back to

780
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 1: sixteen thirty seven, being gay didn't just mean happy, but

781
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: it was a word for the kind of person who

782
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:43,800
Speaker 1: was quote addicted to social pleasures. So men and women

783
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 1: were both gay if they led immoral lives of pleasure

784
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: and vice. Libertines kind of yeah, libertines Oscar Wilde double gay,

785
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: double gay. Yeah. Yeah. It also means that gay is

786
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: a reclaimed slur. Is wow. Love that, Whereas when I

787
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 1: thought it just meant happy, I was like, whatever, crazer,

788
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 1: A gay blade is an old timey word for a

789
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 1: dashing swordsman, or the kind of person who is the

790
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:19,919
Speaker 1: logical cultural descendant of dashing swordsmen. Incredible, and that rules too,

791
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: and we got to bring that back. If you're like

792
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: trends and wear makeup, I don't care what gender you are,

793
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: and carry a gun you are now a gay blade blade?

794
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 2: Those are really good criteria. Yeah, like yes, yeah.

795
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 1: Or a sword you can carry us uh legally don't.

796
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,840
Speaker 1: I don't know what about pocket knives. Oh, pocket knives

797
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: could work, especially butterfly knives. Okay, already very gay. Mmmmmm,

798
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: I think it's hilarious. At one point, as soon as

799
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:47,879
Speaker 1: I was like an adult and lived in a free

800
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,479
Speaker 1: state by terrible definitions, I like ran out and tried

801
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 1: all the kind of knives that were illegal when I

802
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,879
Speaker 1: was a kid, you know, and like none of them

803
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 1: are like good weapons, Like a butterfly knife that is

804
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: slower to open than a regular old folding pocket knife.

805
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 2: I can never open a knife fast opening knives is

806
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 2: not I've never experienced that.

807
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got really into butterfly knives during my totally

808
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 1: heterosexual interest in knives. The coast was destroyed like the

809
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: cities of Sodom and Gomorrah in nineteen oh six with

810
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 1: the earthquake that trashed the city. And I'm just kidding

811
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 1: about the biblical reference because here now I can point

812
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 1: out one of my other weird favorite facts. I loved

813
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 1: the tone shifted your voice. It was so fun. That

814
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 1: was so fun. Thank you. Do you know why in

815
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 1: the Bible God destroyed Sodom and Gomorra? I don't. I

816
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 1: mean I probably did at some point. Oh, it's totally fine.

817
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: The regular right wing Christian talking point is that God

818
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: killed Sodom and Gomora are the cities because they were gay?

819
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 2: Okay, well that's what I mean, sodomy. That's why, right,

820
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 2: that's why sodomy? Right, yeah, okay, yeah, Like even in

821
00:45:58,480 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 2: the Bible, this I didn't source.

822
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: I just spent too much of my time watching this

823
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,839
Speaker 1: Bible scholar named Dad McLellan. In the Bible, God did

824
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:07,879
Speaker 1: not destroy the cities for being gay, but for being

825
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: horrible to foreigners. They were not being nice to people

826
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: who weren't from there. That is why God was like,

827
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 1: now you're getting smoked. However, in this case, the thing

828
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: that the people were doing to foreigners was raping them

829
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 1: to death, jeez, which is a It takes a pretty

830
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: inventive mind to interpret that as a condemnation of consensual

831
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: gay sex. So yeah, be good foreigners. I don't know

832
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: that's the better takeaway. Yeah, the Barbary Coast was destroyed

833
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 1: nineteen oh six along with most of the city. It

834
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: was rebuilt, but a bit more upscale, and then in

835
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,240
Speaker 1: nineteen thirteen there started to be some zoning regulations around

836
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 1: houses of ill repute, and then prohibition really killed the

837
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:56,280
Speaker 1: vibe of that era, but the spirit remained in many ways.

838
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: And the reason that San Francisco became a gay hey

839
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: is entirely related to how it was a place for

840
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: lifestyle criminality, because being gay was a crime, So you

841
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: go to where there's crime and where you can do crime.

842
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 1: We talked in the Stonewall episodes about Tommy's Place, which

843
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 1: was a lesbian bar in San Francisco run by this

844
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: butch lesbian gangster named Tommy Vasu who like wasn't actually

845
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 1: cool people did cool stuff in that same way that

846
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: like we all love pirates, but they're bad people. Yeah,

847
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 1: you know, Tommy was absolutely a pimp, absolutely pushing drugs,

848
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 1: like absolutely providing drugs to underage kids. Like yeah, but

849
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: you know it was like a I was just kind

850
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 1: of doing what everyone who owned bars in that area did. Yeah. Yeah,

851
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 1: it's been a moment since I wrote about her. I

852
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 1: think she like went to prison, got out of prison,

853
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,800
Speaker 1: and then like she's like in her fifties or sixties

854
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: or someone, and someone's just like, no, it's your time

855
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 1: to go, and someone like kills her over crime stuff.

856
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 2: I would like to see like the wire version of

857
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 2: that of that story, because we would all still love

858
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 2: tom and Tommy would be a flawed anti hero. But

859
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 2: so Tommy was probably hot. Is my guest with a

860
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 2: name like Tommy and be in a butch?

861
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. Always wore suits and fedoras, like yeah,

862
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: just classy as shit. Do you not cross Tommy vasu So.

863
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:19,399
Speaker 1: San Francisco has a long and sordid history of sordidity,

864
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: and that's where the Lusty Lady operated. And the Lusty

865
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: Lady the subject of this week we will talk about

866
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 1: on Wednesday. Who But first we'll talk about anything you

867
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: want to plug me? Like do you already have a

868
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: book out? Could people go find your book?

869
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 2: People could find Roustbelt Femme wherever you get your books,

870
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 2: but not Amazon please. You could subscribe to my newsletter.

871
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:44,879
Speaker 1: Which is a very good newsletter. I subscribe to it,

872
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 1: thank you.

873
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 2: It's called Radical Love Letters. You could search that or

874
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 2: search my name? What else I do like writing, coaching

875
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 2: and I teach workshops sometimes, so just you know, find

876
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 2: me on the internet and then pre order the book

877
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,439
Speaker 2: when it's out for pre order, which is not yet.

878
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 1: Yep. Everyone should follow Rachel Substack newsletter and also take

879
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 1: care of each other. That's the other thing to plug

880
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,879
Speaker 1: is take care of each other because we gotta because

881
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 1: no one else is going to do it for us.

882
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 1: See you all on Wednesday. Thanks for having me. Cool

883
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,439
Speaker 1: People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of cool

884
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media, visit

885
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: our website Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on

886
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, app a podcasts, or wherever you get

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00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 1: your podcasts.