1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Now from our nation's capital. This is Bloomberg sound On. 2 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: There's a crisis in our border caused by this administration's 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: policy Title forty two should be lifted. The Department of 4 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: Homeland Security has projected that there could be an increase 5 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: in people coming to the border. At Bloomberg sound On, Politics, 6 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: Policy and perspective from DC's top names. Ukraine clearly believes 7 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: that it can win, and so does everyone here. There 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: was a level of confidence that was excluded both by 9 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 1: Secretaries Boston as well as Lincoln. Bloomberg Sound On with 10 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:43,319 Speaker 1: Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. The US claps back at 11 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: Russia after Moscow warns again of a possible nuclear war 12 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: World War three. Welcome to the fastest hour in politics 13 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: with the latest of the war in Ukraine and unique 14 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: insights today from a voice of experience. Will be talking 15 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: momentarily with John Herb's, former US Ambassador to Ukraine and 16 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: senior director of the Atlantic Council's Eurasia Center. Later, the 17 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: White House rolls out a new plan for the southern border, 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: a six point plan Biden versus Texas. At the same 19 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 1: time goes before the Supreme Court. We'll talk about it 20 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: with Bloomberg Supreme Court reporter Gregg Store with arguments for 21 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: and against the remain in Mexico Policy Today analysis from 22 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: our signature panel. Glad to say we have Bloomberg Politics 23 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: contributors Jeanie Chantano and Rick Davis with us to help 24 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: make sense of everything this hour and some big issues 25 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: to talk about. First, we opened the morning with word 26 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: that Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov had sat for a 27 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: State TV interview and he made news We've heard this before, 28 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: but warning of a serious risk of nuclear war, saying, quote, 29 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: the danger is serious, even invoking the Cuban missile crisis, 30 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: saying back then Moscow and Washington understood the rules of conduct, 31 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: but now he says there are few rules left. Isn't 32 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: that right. Reaction from the administration came initially from the 33 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin in Germany Ramstein Air Base. 34 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: He's hosting military leaders there. This big confab forty countries 35 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: represented a pretty good show of solidarity. But listen to 36 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: how he tries to respond without escalating. Your Secretary Austin 37 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 1: rattling of sabers, sabers and and uh, you know, dangerous 38 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: rhetoric is clearly unhelpful and something that we won't engage in. 39 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 1: Nobody wants to see a nuclear war happened. Happened. It's 40 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: a war that you know or all sites lose. State 41 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: Department spokesman Ned Price called Labob's remarks irresponsible and a 42 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: clear attempt to distract from Russia's failure in Ukraine a 43 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: little bit, a little bit heavier and Secretary of State 44 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 1: Anthony Lincoln is back in Washington. Remember he was in 45 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: Kiev just two days ago with Secretary Austin and he's 46 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: still looking forward to returning American diplomats to Ukraine as 47 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: soon as next week. He tested today before the Senate 48 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: Foreign Relations Committee. Here's Secretary of b Lincoln, we will 49 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: we have to continue to drive that diplomacy. Ford two 50 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: seize what I believe her strategic opportunities as well as 51 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: address risks presented by Russia's overreach. Ase countries are reconsidering 52 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 1: their policies, their priorities, their relationships really caught my eye 53 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: blink and adding and questioning. The U S would not 54 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 1: stand in the way, he says, of Ukraine becoming a 55 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: so called neutral nation. This isn't necessarily new, but it's 56 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,519 Speaker 1: been a while, you know, a country that never joins NATO. Basically, 57 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: if he says that's what Kives chooses, of course we're 58 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: going to go along with it. And that's where we 59 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: begin our conversation today with John Herbs. He served as 60 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: the US Ambassador to Ukraine from twenty to twenty six 61 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: and Uzbekistan before that, now Senior director of the Atlantic 62 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: Council's Eurasias Center. Ambassador, welcome, It's great to have you. 63 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: The mixed messages that we're hearing from Moscow are really something. 64 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: Weeks after Putin said talks had reached a dead end, 65 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: today Storry laugh Rov seems to be blaming the US 66 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: for not taking negotiations seriously, even as he warns again 67 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: of a possible nuclear war. When you put this all together, 68 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: does Russia believe it is losing? Um, Russia is losing. 69 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: I think many smart people in Moscow understand this. I'm 70 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: not sure that Putin understands this. How about Sergei Lavrov. 71 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: You know, he's said to not even be in the 72 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: inner circle even as he speaks for Vladimir Putin, but 73 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: he's looking at the Western news. Ambassador, well, Lave Wolf 74 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: is not in the inner circle. He is a very 75 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: crafty man, and you might say at the center of 76 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: his craft is not getting himself on the bad side 77 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 1: of the Russian strongman. Why dropped the nuclear threat again, Well, 78 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: the Russians have had some success by threatening with nukes. 79 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: I mean several times. I'm sad to say early in 80 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: this crisis, before the Russians launches new offensive, and since 81 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: the administration has self deterred, Saints does not want to 82 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: wind up in a nuclear holocaust. We we dismissed the 83 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: notion of a no fly zone, We dismissed the notion 84 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,039 Speaker 1: of a humanitarian corrida. We even dismissed the notion of 85 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: sending big fighters to Ukraine because it would be considered 86 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: escalatory by Putin. So they've allowed Putin to push us 87 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: around a little bit. But thank goodness, as your as 88 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: your reporter noted, Austin's gave it the whole home today, 89 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: which we should have given it in the past. No kidding. 90 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: So you just the idea is I heard the message, 91 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: but we're not going to be escalating it. We're not 92 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: going to see you and raise you when it comes 93 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: to a nuclear conflict, correct, and We're not going to 94 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: be intimidated by you, because in the past there has 95 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: been some successful intimidation by Mr Pierre. Well, you seem 96 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: to be a little upset about that. Maybe that's not 97 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: the right word, but concerned about that. From the perspective 98 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: of Ukraine, you're feeling for the leadership right now. Are 99 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: they not getting enough from the US UM, the administration's 100 00:05:53,800 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: position which has been consistently slow or hesitant, and himid 101 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: IS has been getting better. The two aid packages, one 102 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: announced two weeks ago, the other announced last week, was 103 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: a good step in the right direction. This meaning that 104 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: Austin and Milly hosted in Ramstein pulling and the Allies 105 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: was a good thing. But we're still not sending some 106 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: of the weapons systems that Ukraine desperately needs, which make 107 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: plans that I mentioned the Suhoy bombers, longer range drones 108 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 1: we need to give Ukraine and UM tanks. We need 109 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:32,720 Speaker 1: to give Ukraine the capability to offset Moscow's large advantage 110 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: in a open that battle, which is what they will 111 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: conduct in the east of Ukraine. Yes, so you're talking 112 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: to President Biden tomorrow. Ambassador, you have an appointment in 113 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: the Oval Office. You need to tell him what they 114 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,799 Speaker 1: need when he makes the supplemental request to Congress this week. 115 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: How many billions are we talking about? How or is 116 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: it not about dollars? Is it about actual weapons systems 117 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: that we should be more specific about. He knows what 118 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: they need is because they need because the Ukraine's have 119 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: been asking for it for six or eight weeks. Many 120 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 1: in Congress know this as well. This does involve billions 121 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: of dollars. We've already committed that this involves a steady 122 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: supply of ammunition. But keep in mind Putin's objectives go 123 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: beyond Ukraine. He will go after our Baltic NATO allies. 124 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: If he wins in Ukraine, that will be far more expensive, 125 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 1: when that will cost more American lives if we have 126 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: to defend our Baltic allies against Russian troops. Therefore, give 127 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: Ukraine the weapons so they themselves defeat Putin. Have we 128 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: sent enough to the Eastern Front if if you will, 129 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: of NATO or Eastern European allies like Poland, Romanian and 130 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: so forth, or do we need to send more American 131 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: troops there for the the scenario that you just outlined. 132 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: I give Biden credit for responding also a little bit late, 133 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: but not nearly as late as with the weapons supply 134 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: and strengthening our forces in among the Eastern NATO allies. 135 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: They did. They began to do that in the middle 136 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: of January. They've strengthened that since. So they've done that. 137 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: I say I give them a B plus to an 138 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: A minus for that. On the weapons supply, They've got 139 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: a gentleman. See, I'd like to see it get better. 140 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: Russia cut the gas to Poland and Bulgaria, Ambassador, what 141 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: does that tell us about what else Vladimir Putin is 142 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: capable of? Well, he has basically two instruments of leverage. 143 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: One are as nuclear as the nuclear program, which only 144 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: works if we are frightened and self deterred by it 145 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: because we have nukes too. And the other concerns oil 146 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 1: and gas. So he can stop the supply. But keep 147 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: in mind he needs Western dollars as much as sadly, 148 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: our European allies need his oil and gas. But Poland. 149 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: Poland is not the issue. Poland can live without Russian 150 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: gas and oil. Unfortunately, Germany seems to be able unable 151 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: to break the habit at the moment, although I think 152 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: that they are taking strides to break it, say, within 153 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 1: nine to twelve months. Well, you know Poland. How much 154 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: does it concern you though about Putin's eyes on Poland, 155 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: knowing that that's where a lot of important supply lines 156 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: are going in terms of weapons entering Ukraine, a lot 157 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: of refugees going out, and you've got American journalist dancing 158 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: around Leviv. I realized it's a dangerous place, but there's 159 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: a lot of activity there that has Vladimir Putin's attention. 160 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: Would it not make you nervous to be in Poland 161 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 1: right now? They're they're they're what forty miles away in Leviv? Look, um, 162 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: I think it's unlikely, not impossible that Moscow would strike Poland. 163 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: They are not able to achieve their objectives in Ukraine. 164 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 1: Why risks some stronger response from NATO. But you can't 165 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: rule it out. You can't rule out a quote unquote 166 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: accidental Russian missile arriving somehow in Poland, accidental on purpose, 167 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: maybe to test the alliance. But if if our leadership 168 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: is sound, we've already discussed this possibility with the NATO 169 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: and we haven't mind a strong response. I say, if 170 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: if if in fact our leadership on this is sound. 171 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 1: I don't know the to that, I know what I hope. 172 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: We're preparing for a massive battle in the east, which 173 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: speaks to the weapons systems you say that Ukraine needs 174 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: as that takes place. Do you also support the blinking 175 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 1: vision of restoring a diplomatic presence not just in the 176 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: country but in Keith. Of course, Look, now I was 177 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: a diplomat for thirty one years. Diplomacy can also be 178 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: risky at times, I mean for its practitioners. Um, in 179 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: the in the mid eighties, Um, when you had the 180 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: Iran Iraq war, not the one that we were involved in, 181 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: we had diplomats in Baghdad when the Uranians were sending 182 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: scud missiles into Baghdad. We did not pull them out. 183 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: At some point in the limit eighties, in the early nineties, 184 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: this was when I was in the Foreign service, we 185 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: became truly risk averse. Um. We need to understand that 186 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 1: there are times when American national interests require our diplomats 187 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: to be a forward presence, and this is one of 188 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: those times. Someone suggest if it were not for Benghazi, 189 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: we we would have stayed. Well, ben you know, it's funny. 190 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: Ben Ghazi was a mistake to put our our embassa 191 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: are there in that facility. But and then, of course 192 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: he died tragically. But there are other risks that we 193 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: can and should take which we have not, and this 194 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 1: one is a reasonable risk. John Herbs, does this end 195 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 1: with Ukraine as a so called neutral country never to 196 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: join NATO UM? I don't know the answer to that. 197 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: I believe this will end with Ukraine being a truly 198 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: sovereign country, controlling most, if not all, of its territory 199 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: and pursuing an independent foreign policy which might involve neutrality. 200 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: It might not, I can tell the former US Ambassador 201 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: to Ukraine, Ambassador John Herbst. We do thank you for 202 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 1: the insights to get us rolling. On the Tuesday edition 203 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: of Sound On, will assemble the panel next. This is Bloomberg. 204 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: You're listening to Bloomberg. You sound On with Joe Matthew 205 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio. A gentleman's see when it comes to 206 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: supplying weaponds to Ukraine. The grade by John Herbs, the 207 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: former m Bassador to Ukraine, clearly passionate, clearly fired up 208 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: today and feeling like the US may just now be 209 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: standing up the way it should be against Russia and 210 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: providing Ukraine with the support it needs. And that's where 211 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: we start with the panel today. Bloomberg Politics contributors Rick 212 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: Davis and Jeanie Chanzano with us here on Bloomberg. Sound on, Jennie, 213 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: if you're the administration listening to that conversation with a 214 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: man who has actually been there, they was actually represent 215 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: of the United States and got to know the people 216 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: in the nation of Ukraine on that level. To hear 217 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: that kind of disappointment in his voice after this many 218 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: weeks and this many billions of dollars is really something. 219 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: It is And I think the big takeaway in the 220 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: administration from a conversation like that, and hopefully they're listening, 221 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: should be that Putin's objectives go further than the Ukraine 222 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: and so that's why they have to do everything they 223 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: can now to stop him in his tracks. And to me, 224 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: that is a message that has got to be told 225 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: to the American people to justify the mount of spending 226 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: an arms. I mean, I thought that when you heard 227 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: Austin say today that we will move heaven and earth 228 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: to make sure Ukraine has what it needs militarily, we 229 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 1: have to follow that up by saying why what is 230 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: in it for us? And I thought that Ambassador Hurts 231 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: did a good job of making that case. Rick, I 232 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: feel like the narrative is catching up with you a 233 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: little bit on this that that that after this much time, 234 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: I'm assuming it's the time. It's the images that people 235 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: have started to shift their feelings about the war to 236 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: become more aggressive, at least on behalf of the Ukrainians, 237 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: but even advanced the conversation more recently to you know 238 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: what happens if this goes outside of the lines, If 239 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: we don't do this right, this spreads. Sure. I think 240 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: it has a potential spreading, even if we do it 241 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: right right. I mean, like Vladimir Putin is not a 242 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: man who's going to settle for a strip of land 243 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: in the south and the east of the Ukraine. It's 244 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: just not what he has made to be. And if 245 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: you follow what he says, his plan is to go 246 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: much beyond that, right and reconstituting some of the homeland 247 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: uh and and obviously Ukraine is the most important part 248 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,719 Speaker 1: of that. But he does not plan to stop that. 249 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: You talk to the leaders of the Baltics, and they're 250 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 1: under threat every single day. He's attacking them with cyber 251 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: he's running drills on their border. He's the same kinds 252 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 1: of things we saw in Ukraine have been playing out 253 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: in other parts of that region with these Russian forays 254 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: into these space for some time. Believe what Vladimir Putin 255 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: tells you, I don't really understand why that's even a 256 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: debate at this point, because he's done exactly what he 257 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: said he was going to do. Need to be part 258 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: of the policy of this administration. Well, I was a 259 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: big fan of President Biden saying that, you know, Vladimir 260 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: Putin can't be president. Read it how you want to. Well, 261 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: what got even most attention is the fact that the 262 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: White House walked it back within an hour of him 263 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: saying it, when most people I know think he was 264 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: actually spot on when he said it. So the reality 265 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: is you've got a regime there's threatening nuclear war because 266 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: they can't fight a good war, and and so thank 267 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: goodness they're allows you at what they're doing in in 268 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: the Ukraine so far. But at the end of the day, 269 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: we can't be held hostage by this guy. He's he's 270 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: holding Poland now hostage by turning off their gas. I 271 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: mean this guy is a criminal. It is a move too, 272 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: to be cutting off the gas. Uh, I realized we're 273 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: not in the middle of the winter here, Genie. But 274 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: doesn't that say everything you need to know about Vladimir Putin? 275 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: It does? I mean, I think both that cutting off 276 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: the gas and the statements about nuclear and the threat 277 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: of nuclear and the danger of world or fear are 278 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: all an indications then to a possible nuclear war. Or 279 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: is this the same talk that we've been hearing. You know, 280 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: I think to a certain extent, we don't know. I mean, 281 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: God forbid, you know, Vladimir Putin decides that, you know, 282 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: he has no other choice. You know, we can't say 283 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: whether we're closer. But I do think in that situation 284 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: you have to take the threat very real. I mean, 285 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: there's a school of thought they're talking like this because 286 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: they sense that there's defeat. But on the other hand, 287 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 1: they are a nuclear nuclear nation. They could use those 288 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons, they could use tactical nuclear weapons, and you know, 289 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: you can't say what they're going to do because we 290 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: can't get in his head. But then Rick, I turned 291 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: to the Washington Post and I see this headline that 292 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: I mentioned at the top, of the hour, Biden open 293 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: to Ukraine becoming neutral in peace deal. How are we 294 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: talking about a peace deal right now? And weeks ago 295 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin said the negotiations had reached a dead end 296 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: and it is a neutral Ukraine's just another half measure. Well, 297 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: first of all, you always have to be open this piece, right, 298 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: I mean, the ideas for doing everything you can to 299 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 1: keep Russians from killing Ukrainians, and peace has to be 300 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: a component of that. Now. You know, there are many 301 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: of us who don't believe Vladimir Putin has any interest 302 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: in peace. But but echoing that out there is does 303 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: no harm to the ability of the Ukrainians to fight 304 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: back right now. And at the same time, if there 305 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: is an opening for peace, you want to have that. 306 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: And and even President Zelinski has said that he expects 307 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 1: Ukraine to be an independent nation. He's my suspicion is 308 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: if he could get his country back and get the 309 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: Russian troops out of his borders, all the way through 310 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: all the sovereign borders that Ukraine has, he would accept 311 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: being independent, not having to be a member of NATO 312 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: UM and so so you know, who knows how all 313 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 1: that's gonna play out, But I don't I don't think 314 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: there's a problem with having a piece initiative while the 315 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: fighting is going on, because at some point you hope 316 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: that that's where you go and not more saber rattling 317 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: around nuclear weapons. A lot more to follow with Rick 318 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: and Jennie, as always, are Bloomberg sound on signature panel 319 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: for the hour here as we turn to another remarkable 320 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: story from inside the Beltway today, the Supreme Court questioning 321 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: the Biden administration's bid to end the Remain in Mexico policy. 322 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: We checked the border, coming up with Supreme Court reporter 323 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: store and we'll check markets for you on the way. 324 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: If you're dare, I'm Joe Matthew. This is Bloomberg. As 325 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: we turned to what's going on at the border and 326 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: a pretty remarkable set of headlines today. I'll try to 327 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: walk you through them. Biden unveils border plan details after 328 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: Democrat defections. The headline on the terminal with the administration 329 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: that they're sharing details of, well, it's a six point plan. 330 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: It focuses on speeding up migrant processing and targeting smugglers, 331 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: largely reflecting actions as I read on the terminal, the 332 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: Department of Holman Security has already outlined, but it includes 333 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: more specifics. If you kind of pick through this, not 334 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: a lot of it sounds terribly new. Now, this, of course, 335 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: just comes a day after we talked about Title forty two. 336 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: The policy is set to lift by May, but that 337 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: timeline may be thrown off, they say, by legal action, 338 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: basically extending it beyond meree. We're just waiting for the 339 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: word on that, and that brings us to this Supreme 340 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 1: Court now questioning President Biden's effort to rescind his predecessors 341 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: remain in Mexico policies. Some call it to stay in 342 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: Mexico policy. Greg's Store writing about it on the terminal. 343 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: It has forced tens of thousands of asylum seekers to 344 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 1: stay south of the border. We've talked about this, You've 345 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 1: heard Jensaki talk about it from the briefing room here. 346 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: It is a COVID policy, not an immigration policy, and 347 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: it's set to come down for that reason, or is 348 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: it going to come down? Things get to be a 349 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: little bit interesting here. The COVID policy is the one 350 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 1: we're talking about with Title forty two, of the Remain 351 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: in Mexico policy goes back before that. His predecessor's policy 352 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: that again has people really up in arms on both 353 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 1: sides of the aisle. Uh. I want to hear from 354 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: Eric Schmidt, was it who had more on this one 355 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 1: of the attorneys general involved in the case. You're he 356 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: is the fetan al, the human trafficking, the drug trafficking. 357 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: It doesn't stop in El Paso, it doesn't stop in McAllen. 358 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: It ends up in Kansas City, in St. Louis and Columbia, 359 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: and in Columbus, Ohio, and in Denver. Forgive me, Missouri 360 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 1: Attorney General Eric Schmid, his state was one of two 361 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: on the case argued before the court. Now, to be clear, 362 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: the Biden administration and other critics of the program say 363 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: it's Unamerican. They don't want this in place anymore inhumane 364 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: for those who are legitimately trying to seek asylum. That's 365 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: where we begin with Greg's store to help us understand 366 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: more about it. Bloomberg, Supreme Court reporter. I'm trying to 367 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 1: walk through these headlines. Greg I even confused myself for 368 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 1: a moment here, becoming on the heels of the title 369 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: forty two. Uh. Well, sort of ruling or announcement of 370 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 1: a pre announcement of a ruling this argument today before 371 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court poses a much more important long term 372 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: impact for our southern border, does it not. It certainly 373 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 1: will have a long term impact. Yes, because it goes 374 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: to just how much discretion and the federal government, the 375 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: Department of Homeland Security has over what happens at the border. 376 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 1: The question is when the Trump administration decided a few 377 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 1: years ago that we're going to make asylum applicants wait 378 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: in Mexico while their applications are being processed. The question 379 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: is now that the Biden administration has come along and 380 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: said that's not the policy we want. Can the Biden 381 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 1: administration end that? And a federal district judge in a 382 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: federal appeals court said, no, you can't, at least now 383 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: with the Explana explanation you've given so far. You have 384 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 1: to look at it more closely and and potentially you 385 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: can't do it at all. Texas and Missouri, the states 386 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: involved here, say the program is legally required given the 387 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: number of asylum seekers, as you write, far outstrips detention capacity. 388 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: And boy, when you look at the plan the administration 389 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: rolled out today, I know you've been focused on this case, 390 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 1: but they're not talking about increasing capacity by that much. 391 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 1: It's another tented structure processing facility that I believe would 392 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: increase from thirteen thousand to eighteen thousand the number who 393 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: could come across the border uh per day. Uh. These 394 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 1: states are making a case that is pretty well articulated. Greg. Yeah, 395 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: and nobody disputes that there's not enough to detention capacity. 396 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 1: I'll just throw some numbers actually that came up in 397 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: court today. So government agents in March alone encountered more 398 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 1: than two hundred thousand people trying to cross the border. Uh. 399 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: The federal government has detention space for about thirty two thousand. 400 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: That that's what the Solicitor General said in court today. 401 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: And you can just imagine as those numbers build up 402 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 1: a month after month, there's just not space to put them. 403 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: And so that's really what this this case is about. 404 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: What do you do with the people you don't have 405 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: a place to to put. Uh. Federal immigration law says 406 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: uh that people who are applying for asylum shall be detained. 407 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: It's a man. It makes it sound like it's editory. 408 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: They have to detain them. And it also says, but 409 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: on a case by case basis, you can let people 410 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: go into the US and you know they'll come back 411 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: for their asylum hearings, or you can send them back 412 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: to the country they came from, in this case, Mexico. 413 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: And so this argument today was all about how you 414 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: make all those pieces fit together at this time when 415 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: there's not nearly enough capacity to detain people, just not 416 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: even close. And apparently we won't have that anytime soon. Greg, 417 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: you you remind us the administration suspended the policy the 418 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: day of the inauguration, formally rescinded at June one. What 419 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: potentially happens from here, well, so they formally they formally 420 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 1: rescinded it, and then a judge, a federal district judge, 421 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: said no, you have to put it back in place 422 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: and that and that went up to the Supreme Court 423 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: in an earlier round on an emergency basis, and the 424 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: Supreme Court said, we're not going to block that order. 425 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 1: So what it meant was the Biden administration had to 426 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,040 Speaker 1: negotiate with Mexico to restart this program. And so the 427 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 1: program is now up and running again, and the Biden 428 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: administration is still arguing we ought to be able to 429 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: end this program because we don't think it's a good 430 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: policy decision given the horrible conditions at these places. The 431 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: better way to ask is that than in our remaining 432 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,959 Speaker 1: thirty seconds. What what is next for the administration? Though? 433 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: Can they can they rescind it again? Uh? It depends 434 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: on what the Supreme Court says. That's what it will 435 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: come down to, this ruling, and it's gonna be I 436 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: imagine months, Greg right, probably the end of June. Yes, 437 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 1: Gregg Store knows how to wait for word from the 438 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. It's great to have you, as always, Greg Bloomberg, 439 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,360 Speaker 1: Supreme Court reporter, walking us through an important argument that's 440 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 1: happening right now and not getting nearly enough attention as 441 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: media focus is largely untitled. Forty two will reassemble the 442 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: panel next. This is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg. You 443 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: Sound on with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. As we 444 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: carry our conversation about the border and the many headlines 445 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: spring from this debate to our panel. Rick and Genie 446 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: are back with us on Bloomberg Sound On. I'm Joe 447 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: Matthew and Washington. Glad you came along. These market updates 448 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: are awfully difficult, and it has been a time here. 449 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: It's been a time in politics as well. Rick Davis, 450 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Politics contributor, and Jeanie Chanzano with us here as 451 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: President Biden faces some very difficult days potentially at the 452 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 1: border around this time, guys, we were talking about Title 453 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: forty two around this time yesterday, when you had to 454 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: remain in Mexico policy that's being argued before the Supreme Court. 455 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: It's giving a lot of fodder to a lot of 456 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: the administration's critics here. And I was just blown away 457 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: to see Kevin McCarthy uh, down along the border. Rick, 458 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 1: he took a group of Republican members of the House 459 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: to the southern border, as frequently has done. Right. It 460 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: makes great optics. You're standing there in front of the river. Uh, 461 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: You're you're walking through the rough talking to a reporter 462 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: about what's happening here. In this particular case, though, the 463 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: questions were all geared towards his recent comments about Donald Trump, 464 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: because it was the first time that we've that we've 465 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: seen him. But listen to the artful nature here. I'm 466 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: assuming you would you would refer to it as such. 467 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: The way he steers these questions about his tape remember 468 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,439 Speaker 1: the New York Times tape where he's talking about Donald 469 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: Trump resigning after January six and swings it back to 470 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 1: the ultimate talking point, which is the border. Listen to this. 471 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: I'll give you a couple of tastes. Here's the first 472 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: one on Fox News of Kevin McCarthy at the at 473 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: the border. Look, I never told the president to resign. 474 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: It was a conversation that we had about scenarios going forward. 475 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: But that's not really what critical happened fifteen months ago. 476 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: What's happening is what's happening on this border right now. Okay, 477 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,479 Speaker 1: So the reporter comes back around, the river's flowing behind him. 478 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: You can see Texas in the distance. Congressman, again, this 479 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: situation at the border here is one thing. But but 480 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: he's gonna you'll hear the question, did did you actually 481 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 1: lie about what you said? And on that tape period 482 00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: you had said the New York Times reporting on it 483 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 1: was quote false and wrong. Then the tape came out, 484 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: did you lie? No, because what was brought to me 485 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: is said that I called the president to say that 486 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 1: that to resign. I never called the president say to resign. 487 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: He and I have a very good relationship. As we 488 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: go through. But what really needs to happen here is 489 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 1: we're watching what's happening in this country a border that's 490 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 1: not secure. This by the way, I could play several 491 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 1: more of those for you, artful, Rick, Or does it 492 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 1: say more about the situation at the border as a 493 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: talking point? First of all, the border is always a 494 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: good place to go when you're trying to avoid Washington. 495 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: And he is desperate to avoid Washington right now, and 496 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: and and and and likely so because he's been caught 497 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 1: in a ball face lie. Uh and he can't spin 498 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: his way out of it. No one's gonna buy it. 499 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: Not even a Fox News reporter was going to go 500 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 1: down with the ship on that one. And and so 501 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: he's gonna have to just pay the piper for a while. 502 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 1: I mean, he's lucky that Trump has given him a bye. 503 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: He doesn't have that flying over his head every day. 504 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: And yet, um, the the Press Corps has a duty 505 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: to report. They have him ask him a you know, 506 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: specific question. And we used to have this saying on 507 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: the mccame campaign, spinning is lying. Well, he's he's got 508 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: a full chest alive going on right now. That's pretty tough. 509 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: If we apply it to this scenario here, Jeannie. But 510 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is, yes, we're interested in 511 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: the first part of his answer, but a lot of 512 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: people were more interested in the second part the But 513 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 1: what happened fifteen months ago here at the border? That's right, 514 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: And you know, it's it's stunning. You know, here's somebody 515 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: who you know, refuses to go along with impeaching the 516 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: president for his role in January six, and yet he's 517 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: talking about impeaching that the head of Homeland Security for 518 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: dereliction of duty. It's mind numbing as he tries to 519 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: change the conversation. You know, there is no question Kevin 520 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: McCarthy is right. Borders need to be secure, they need 521 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: to be protected. But the reality is the Republicans have 522 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: offered absolutely nothing but fear when it comes to the border. 523 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,200 Speaker 1: This is a problem has vexed presidents going all the 524 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: way back to George W. Bush, if not before, they 525 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: have no plan to do it, and neither does the 526 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: Biden administration. Let's be clear on that this is an 527 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: absolutely humanitarian disaster. Americans deserve better, but they're not going 528 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: to get it. We talked about Title forty two yesterday. 529 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: When it comes to remain in Mexico, this case that 530 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: we talked to Gregg's store that's being argued before the 531 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: Supreme Court if it goes away again, as the Biden 532 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: administration is asking Rick, does that not add much more 533 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: liability here? Political liability in a midterm cycle. Oh sure, 534 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: I mean, these are all campaign promises that he probably 535 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: shouldn't have made to begin with, and now he feels 536 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: compelled to implement, and even the courts won't let him 537 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: implement them. And and he ought to listen to the 538 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: communities on the border who have the biggest impact with 539 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: all these immigrants coming, migrants coming across the border, and 540 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: yet it's almost like he's at war with the border states. 541 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: And these are critical states for the future Democratic presidential 542 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: campaigns in the future, and also in some key Senate races. 543 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: So he's really misjudging I think the demand for this 544 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: kind of action without, as Genie was saying, a plan 545 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: to absorb it. He's gonna have two hundred thousand a 546 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: month potentially of migrants that get paroled into the United States. Basically, hey, 547 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: stay in touch with us, will bring up your asylum 548 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: case sometime in the future, and that could be a 549 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: million people by the end of the next six months. Uh, 550 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: what is what explanation are we gonna give the American 551 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: public about what we're doing to keep control of that 552 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: situation and not just let these folks walk into the 553 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: United States and and and start a new life without 554 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: any kind of tracking. So, Genie, will the courts save 555 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: the administration from this debate between now and November? You know, 556 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: I think they've done them a little bit of a 557 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: favor by giving them time. But you know, one of 558 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: the crazy things about this story is, even though the 559 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: judiciary ordered them to keep the remain in Mexico policy, 560 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: when you look at the numbers, Trump was sending about 561 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: seventy thousand asylum seekers back the Biden administration by some 562 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: counts four and ten. So they've really have not been listening. 563 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: You know, courts can order things, they have no executive power, 564 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: so they can't execute those things. So there's a question 565 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: about them listening. And you know, the reality is, and 566 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: if you step back, Title forty two probably should be removed. 567 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: Congress should have been the one to put that in 568 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: a in place. That's not something that is something the 569 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: executive should be doing, you know, in regular order of things. 570 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: That's a congressional role. And then to Rick's point, what 571 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: do you do with those two hundred thousand? You either 572 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: use the remain in Mexico policy or you have another 573 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: policy to curb that. Neither of those things are in place, 574 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: and so we are left with this enormous humanitarian disaster 575 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: on top of a political problem months away from a midterm. 576 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: Great analysis from Rick and Genie. As we turn to 577 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: another I won't say policy, although I suppose it is, 578 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: but another Trump leftover that the Biden administration is trying 579 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: to do away with, and is in fact doing away with, 580 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: as I find the headline on the Washington Post, Trump 581 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: saved this old fashioned light bulb. Biden's now phasing it out. 582 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: You remember this. It was a big hit right on 583 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: the road show Donald Trump, the stump. Remember the light bulb? 584 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: People said, what's with the light bulb? I said, here's 585 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: the story. And I looked at it. The bulb that 586 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: we're being forced to use. Number one to me, most importantly, 587 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: the lights no good. I always look orange, and so 588 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: do you. The light bulb. They get rid of the 589 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: light bulb that people got used to. The new bulb 590 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: is many times more expensive and I hate to say it. 591 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: It doesn't make you look as good. Of course, being 592 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: a main person, that's very important to me. It gives 593 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: you an orange. I don't want an orange. Has anyone noticed? 594 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: And somebody said, oh, sir, don't mention the light bulb. 595 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: So the new light bulb. Course you're five times as 596 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: much and it makes you look orange. And I was 597 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: more interested in the orange than I was in the cost. 598 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: So if you didn't remember actually living through that, you'd 599 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: think you were listening to like an HBO special. Right, 600 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: it's the it's the Donald Trump the first prime time special. No, 601 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: this was our reality for some time. And I've got 602 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: to tell you. The Energy Department finalized two rules just 603 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: yesterday requiring manufacturers to sell energy efficient light bulbs, effectively putting, 604 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: as The Washington Post writes, a cell by date on 605 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: the older inefficient ones that some people I know have 606 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: been stocking in their closets. This old time good politics, 607 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: Rick Davis make people buy the new bulbs. Well, we 608 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 1: have to grow up at some point and start wearing pants. 609 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 1: And so I think that that that you know, you've 610 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: got a choice whether you want to continue to just 611 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: burn electricity lighting accounts for almost of your electric bill, 612 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: and and and you know, there are efficient options that 613 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: really don't burn hardly any energy at all, and last 614 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,439 Speaker 1: a heck of a lot longer. So at some point 615 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: I think, you know, the government may be right every 616 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 1: now and then, and this is one area that that 617 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: i'd say they have not. Now I have to also 618 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: disclose that I ran an led lighting business first quite 619 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: some time, so I'm a sucker for this one. Well 620 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 1: do they make you really orange? Genie? I never noticed 621 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 1: that before Donald Trump said it, you know, not me personally, 622 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,399 Speaker 1: They don't Joe Matthew. But I will tell you I'm 623 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: surprised that Rick is not more sensitive to Donald Trump's 624 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,439 Speaker 1: concern about his orange color and allowing him to stock 625 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,760 Speaker 1: up on those lights so he can, you know, remain 626 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 1: I don't know, non orange. What's the opposite of that? Um, 627 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 1: you know, it's obviously good policy of But you know, 628 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: it's just you brought me back because between yesterday with 629 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: the water and today with the light bulbs, I'm having 630 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,319 Speaker 1: flashbacks here to all this entertainment with Donald Trump. It's 631 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what it was. It was quite the 632 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: trip going back through some of those speeches. Boy, I 633 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: don't know. Donald Trump says these make you look orange. 634 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 1: Uh Rick, maybe he hasn't checked the other bulbs, or 635 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 1: maybe he just hasn't looked in the mirror lately. That's, 636 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 1: you know, kind of I guess the point. Great to 637 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: spend time with Rick and Jennie, our signature panel here 638 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 1: on sound On. That was the revelation, the breakthrough when 639 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: he realized all the bulbs made him look orange. I'll 640 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: meet you back here tomorrow on the fastest hour in politics. 641 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: Will check the markets coming up as well, and thanks 642 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: to everyone for jumping in today fascinating conversation. John Herts, 643 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: the former ambassador, Greg Sture, our Supreme Court reporter, and 644 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: of course the panel. I'm Joe, Matthew and Washington. This 645 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 1: is Bluebird.