1
00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:04,920
Speaker 1: Colson Media.

2
00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,600
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome back to it could happen here. I

3
00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:08,200
Speaker 2: am once.

4
00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:10,639
Speaker 3: Again your occasional host, Molly Conker, and I am joined

5
00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,200
Speaker 3: today by Spencer Sunshine, the author of Neo Nazi Terrorism

6
00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:19,560
Speaker 3: and Countercultural Fascism, The Origins and Afterlife of James Mason's Siege.

7
00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,880
Speaker 3: It's available now in paperback. I have my paperback copy

8
00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,560
Speaker 3: from Routledge Press. So, Spencer, I guess let's get right

9
00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,639
Speaker 3: into it. What is Siege and why should we still

10
00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:31,400
Speaker 3: be talking about it?

11
00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,160
Speaker 4: Well, unfortunately, we should still be talking about it because

12
00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,960
Speaker 4: it's still influential. It was a book originally published in

13
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,920
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety three, but that is an edited version of

14
00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,760
Speaker 4: newsletters published in the eighties by a fellow named James Mason,

15
00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,240
Speaker 4: who is a lifelong neo Nazi. He joined the American

16
00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,400
Speaker 4: Nazi Party at age fourteen in nineteen sixty six. He

17
00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:56,720
Speaker 4: is still an active ideological believer in national socialism. It's

18
00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,840
Speaker 4: a book that in it he makes the argument that

19
00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:05,040
Speaker 4: any kind of normal legal political activity was pointless for

20
00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:09,720
Speaker 4: Neo Nazis to engage in and like forming organizations, holding marches,

21
00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,240
Speaker 4: making the traditional propaganda, trying to build up parties even

22
00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,560
Speaker 4: guerrilla warfare. At the end of it, he becomes very

23
00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:20,360
Speaker 4: cynical about and he says, through what are essentially dramatic

24
00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,400
Speaker 4: random acts of violence, of terrorism or murder. He even

25
00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:28,679
Speaker 4: goes into praising serial killers like Joseph Paul Franklin, we

26
00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,120
Speaker 4: can destabilize the government and society and after this neo

27
00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,880
Speaker 4: Nazis can come to power. This has become a very

28
00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,000
Speaker 4: influential idea. More recently he was rediscovered. It was a

29
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,119
Speaker 4: pretty obscure The newsletters were very unpopular that he never

30
00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,399
Speaker 4: made more than one hundred copies. The original book had

31
00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,280
Speaker 4: a print run of one thousand, so it was a

32
00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,480
Speaker 4: sort of obscure text. It was known amongst neo Nazi

33
00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,000
Speaker 4: circles for some unusual reasons. It became mixed up with

34
00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,960
Speaker 4: some countercultural figures and that was actually what made up

35
00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,000
Speaker 4: more well known. But it was revived in twenty fifteen.

36
00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,600
Speaker 4: It was found by these younger aspiring terrorists, let's say

37
00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,480
Speaker 4: at the time, around a message board called Iron March.

38
00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:13,600
Speaker 4: It became the bible of the adamoff And Division, this

39
00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,080
Speaker 4: new Nazi group that its members and associates killed five

40
00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,320
Speaker 4: people and out of that everyone in the Adam offf

41
00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,480
Speaker 4: and Division had to read siege, which became the hashtag,

42
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,959
Speaker 4: and out of that grew this whole sort of network,

43
00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,400
Speaker 4: first of groups and now really totally decentralized, like propaganda

44
00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,720
Speaker 4: channels on telegram to Terogram promoting these same ideas, and

45
00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,800
Speaker 4: so it's become very influential today. It gets named in

46
00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:43,200
Speaker 4: like terrorist manifestos. The school shooter I think it was

47
00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:48,080
Speaker 4: in Nashville, Tennessee that just happened. He makes a reference

48
00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,960
Speaker 4: to people who are into siege in his writings, and

49
00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,720
Speaker 4: more and more I've documented before him at least twelve

50
00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,639
Speaker 4: murders that are either by the Adam Waffin Division, by

51
00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,679
Speaker 4: people inspired by siege culture, or by people directly linked

52
00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,600
Speaker 4: to Terogram. So if we want to look at the

53
00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,000
Speaker 4: main text animating neo Nazi terrorism today, which has now

54
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,040
Speaker 4: spread around the globe, of this groups in Latin America,

55
00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,880
Speaker 4: there's groups in eastern Western Europe. It's even influencing groups

56
00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:13,799
Speaker 4: in the Middle East or people in the Middle East.

57
00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,480
Speaker 4: They're called accelerationists. They want to accelerate the collapse of things.

58
00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,480
Speaker 4: And if there's a single ideological text today that's influential

59
00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,600
Speaker 4: on this scene, it is by easily James Mason Siege.

60
00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,840
Speaker 3: And what I particularly am enjoying about the book I

61
00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:29,120
Speaker 3: just told you before we started recording.

62
00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:30,120
Speaker 2: I haven't finished it yet.

63
00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,840
Speaker 3: What I'm enjoying about this book is so you know,

64
00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,040
Speaker 3: you were saying that James Mason started writing this in

65
00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,200
Speaker 3: the eighties, right, but nobody was reading it. It was

66
00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,520
Speaker 3: very sort of niche. It wasn't popular, even within its

67
00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,000
Speaker 3: own niche. He was not a popular man. He had

68
00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,040
Speaker 3: a lot of beefs with other leaders in the movement.

69
00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,400
Speaker 3: It's rediscovered in the twenty tens. It's big on Iron March.

70
00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:51,840
Speaker 3: It's the animating force behind Adam Waffin, and so all

71
00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,880
Speaker 3: of a sudden in the last ten years, people like us,

72
00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,440
Speaker 3: you know, researchers of the far right, mainstream journalists, people

73
00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:01,600
Speaker 3: are talking about Siege, they're talking about me. But this,

74
00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,520
Speaker 3: I think, correct me if I'm wrong, is the only

75
00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,200
Speaker 3: book sort of tracing it back to its root. James

76
00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,200
Speaker 3: Mason did not come into existence in twenty fifteen on

77
00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,840
Speaker 3: the pages of Iron March, right, they sort of dug

78
00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,120
Speaker 3: back up this writing that was at that point thirty

79
00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,520
Speaker 3: years old. But this book, I mean, it's an incredible

80
00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,400
Speaker 3: work of research. But it's also sort of a picuresque, right.

81
00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:27,839
Speaker 3: It follows James Mason through decades of Nazi history.

82
00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:28,040
Speaker 4: Right.

83
00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,159
Speaker 3: He wasn't just a guy who wrote a newsletter. He

84
00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,040
Speaker 3: was a guy who was in a lot of rooms.

85
00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:34,520
Speaker 3: He knew a lot of people. So through the lens

86
00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:38,800
Speaker 3: of James Mason's life, you can follow the origins of

87
00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,320
Speaker 3: the modern neo Nazi movement back to the sort of

88
00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:46,080
Speaker 3: splinters and sects and rival personalities of the seventies. Right

89
00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,560
Speaker 3: that you can't understand modern neo Nazi organizing if you

90
00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:52,880
Speaker 3: don't know the history that goes back to the sixties

91
00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:53,440
Speaker 3: and seventies.

92
00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,400
Speaker 4: Well, thank you for getting that. I had someone write

93
00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,120
Speaker 4: a review and it was an interesting view from the

94
00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,400
Speaker 4: viewpoint of literary criticism. And he's like, well, this is

95
00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:02,480
Speaker 4: one of these books about a book it's not. And

96
00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,159
Speaker 4: I'm like, yeah, it kind of is, but it's really

97
00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,440
Speaker 4: and I started after I started writing this which has

98
00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,960
Speaker 4: an unusual origin, or just maybe it is a usual origin.

99
00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,720
Speaker 4: Like the first half is about neo Nazism in the

100
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:17,839
Speaker 4: nineteen seventies, which is incredibly undocumented. There's a huge problem

101
00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,799
Speaker 4: with a documentation about the far right in general before

102
00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,960
Speaker 4: twenty fifteen. Probably more books have come out in the

103
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,239
Speaker 4: last ten years about the far right in the US

104
00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,080
Speaker 4: before twenty fifteen than came out before, and certainly about

105
00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,599
Speaker 4: neo Nazis, who are almost always when they are written

106
00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,920
Speaker 4: about American Neo Nazis, it's usually in a history of

107
00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,960
Speaker 4: the white supremacist movement, and there's no differentiation made between them,

108
00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,560
Speaker 4: and I would say the National Socialists are quite different

109
00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,120
Speaker 4: from other white supremacists for a variety of different reasons.

110
00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,840
Speaker 4: So there is no book about neo Nazism in the

111
00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,680
Speaker 4: nineteen seventies in the US at all. There are only

112
00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,440
Speaker 4: two documents I can really name, and they're both written

113
00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,560
Speaker 4: by National Socialists actually when in Australia and one the

114
00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,640
Speaker 4: head of the New Order which used to be the

115
00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,040
Speaker 4: American Nazi Party. It's actually not bad. It's an eight

116
00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,599
Speaker 4: part series by Martin Kirk. So the first half is

117
00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:10,000
Speaker 4: really reconstructing what happened in the nineteen seventies, because this

118
00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,520
Speaker 4: is what siege is coming out of. This siege is

119
00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,800
Speaker 4: an answer to the questions that faced neo Nazis in

120
00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,040
Speaker 4: the nineteen seventies. And then the second half of the

121
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,160
Speaker 4: book is even I would say less about Mason. It's

122
00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,760
Speaker 4: about these four countercultural figures who discover Mason, helped published him,

123
00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:29,040
Speaker 4: and eventually published and disseminated Siege itself. And part of

124
00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,719
Speaker 4: that is I was just around the scene these people

125
00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,960
Speaker 4: were part of in the nineteen nineties. Like I saw

126
00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:37,039
Speaker 4: one of them, boyd Rice play. I had many mutual

127
00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,159
Speaker 4: friends with another, the publisher Adam Parfrey of Farrell House.

128
00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,200
Speaker 4: So like, I was like right around what these people

129
00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,960
Speaker 4: were doing as part of the nineties counterculture. So I

130
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,600
Speaker 4: became very interested in that because these people always denied

131
00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,440
Speaker 4: their background, you know, or left it off or something.

132
00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,960
Speaker 4: And I found just so many smoking guns in this.

133
00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,200
Speaker 4: And so I will say how this started is right

134
00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:02,200
Speaker 4: after Charlottesville. The Right rally at Charlottesville. Always you say

135
00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:04,719
Speaker 4: these things and just you give the name of the thing,

136
00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:06,279
Speaker 4: and people are like, wait a minute, that's like where

137
00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,480
Speaker 4: I live. You know, we're more than that, you know,

138
00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:10,880
Speaker 4: I was in Seattle. I was like, oh, I was

139
00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,920
Speaker 4: at Seattle, referring to this nineteen ninety nine demonstration, and

140
00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,120
Speaker 4: I'm like, people are here weren't even necessarily born then,

141
00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,960
Speaker 4: and just saying at Seattle doesn't mean anything. So after

142
00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,520
Speaker 4: younit the right, there was a spike in popularity in

143
00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,520
Speaker 4: Siege and the hashtag read siege because it looked like

144
00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,680
Speaker 4: the rally followed what he said, and he said, no

145
00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,000
Speaker 4: one in an American society will allow neo Nazis to succeed.

146
00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:35,240
Speaker 4: And a lot of people don't know this, but what

147
00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,800
Speaker 4: happened at the initial rally is that it wasn't the

148
00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,960
Speaker 4: street fighting people might be familiar with, even that's fading

149
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,640
Speaker 4: from memory. Was before it was supposed to start, And

150
00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,480
Speaker 4: when it was supposed to start at noon, the police,

151
00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,200
Speaker 4: who had been standing a block away and letting everything unfold,

152
00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:53,000
Speaker 4: marched in and forced everyone out, Meaning the rally never happened.

153
00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:54,080
Speaker 2: Nobody ever gave a speech.

154
00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,320
Speaker 4: Nobody gave a speech. As as we know, the car

155
00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,760
Speaker 4: attack happened like an hour or two later. I got

156
00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,880
Speaker 4: a lot, got a timeline. That's all like garbled now right, Yeah,

157
00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,960
Speaker 4: that sounds right. And the book is co dedicated to

158
00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,800
Speaker 4: Heather Hair I just want to point out, so it

159
00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,320
Speaker 4: seemed to coincide with what Mason said. He's like, you

160
00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,120
Speaker 4: can't do legal work, you have to do a terrorism right,

161
00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,560
Speaker 4: And so there was a spike and interest in it,

162
00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,280
Speaker 4: and Adam often had been doing more and more. Adam

163
00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,880
Speaker 4: often people are committing murders, strange murders. They're all very

164
00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,320
Speaker 4: strange murders, which I think speaks to a lot of

165
00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:30,000
Speaker 4: the personalities who are involved in this and other forms

166
00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,560
Speaker 4: of violence, and even in more structured political movements, I

167
00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,400
Speaker 4: think it does attract tends to attract fringe people, except

168
00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,640
Speaker 4: at certain times where people are intentionally using it as

169
00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:40,840
Speaker 4: a strategy as part of a bigger mass movement. Anyway,

170
00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,680
Speaker 4: these are questions for terrorism studies, and so there was

171
00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:45,160
Speaker 4: a spike of interest in it. So I was going

172
00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,920
Speaker 4: to write a short article for a think tank I

173
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,280
Speaker 4: used to be associated with, which I will not name

174
00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,680
Speaker 4: because I had such a bad experience with them, and

175
00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:54,240
Speaker 4: it was going to be an article. I couldn't get

176
00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,160
Speaker 4: the facts to line up. As I said, there's terrible

177
00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,680
Speaker 4: scholarship about this period, and so I used this very

178
00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:06,400
Speaker 4: sophisticated research tool called Google, and through that I found

179
00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,040
Speaker 4: that Mason's papers. There was a huge collection of Mason's

180
00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,800
Speaker 4: papers at the University of Kansas and Lawrence, Kansas. So

181
00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,120
Speaker 4: I decided I'd go there. I thought I'd just straightened

182
00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,640
Speaker 4: these things out there were some documents I needed, some

183
00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,400
Speaker 4: very obscure fanzines and stuff. That'd be the end of

184
00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:21,839
Speaker 4: the day. I got through. Well, first I discovered it's

185
00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:23,680
Speaker 4: not easy to get to Lawrence, Kansas. You have to

186
00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:25,360
Speaker 4: fly into an airport, and then I think I took

187
00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,960
Speaker 4: an uber for like an hour. There was like one

188
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,240
Speaker 4: bus a day or something. Anyway, I got there and

189
00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,080
Speaker 4: started poking at the papers. It was sixty boxes of

190
00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,880
Speaker 4: his correspondence. He had letters incoming and outgoing since the

191
00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,439
Speaker 4: early nineteen sixties. As you mentioned, he was an insider

192
00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:42,320
Speaker 4: to the neo Nazi movement, so it was with all

193
00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,640
Speaker 4: these people he had kept carbon copies of his outgoing letters.

194
00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,280
Speaker 4: It was a unique slice of national socialist life in

195
00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,959
Speaker 4: the United States. Never seen an archive like it. People

196
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,680
Speaker 4: didn't keep their papers because they were doing illegal activities.

197
00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:55,800
Speaker 4: The government sees them and has them in a warehouse

198
00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,040
Speaker 4: somewhere or whatever. This is even in the pre Internet.

199
00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:00,800
Speaker 4: I can only do this because it was pre Internet

200
00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,679
Speaker 4: and there were paper copies of stuff, and of the

201
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,520
Speaker 4: age where I grew up doing all research on paper

202
00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,440
Speaker 4: and in archives. And I quickly found out what I had.

203
00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:12,400
Speaker 4: And there were two things. One, as I said was

204
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,800
Speaker 4: that there was this whole story of American neo Nazism,

205
00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,679
Speaker 4: of when the American Nazi Party splinters then called the

206
00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,240
Speaker 4: National Socialistory People's Party in the nineteen seventies, and all

207
00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,040
Speaker 4: these groups come out of it, many of which we

208
00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,000
Speaker 4: know parts of, like William Peers who wrote the Turner

209
00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,720
Speaker 4: Diaries and the Skoky Incident which is parodied, and the

210
00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,400
Speaker 4: Blues Brothers. Some people don't know this just so Paul

211
00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,800
Speaker 4: Franklin shooting and paralyzing US publisher Larry Flint, and some

212
00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,040
Speaker 4: other things. And I was like, Oh, these are all

213
00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,559
Speaker 4: people who came out of one thing, a splintering of

214
00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,160
Speaker 4: the party. And I realized that there basically was a

215
00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,400
Speaker 4: terrorist wing that came out of the splintering. And people

216
00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,120
Speaker 4: knew Mason and people knew Pierce, but there was like

217
00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,240
Speaker 4: a couple other groups or people, but people didn't put

218
00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,400
Speaker 4: it together that they were all like the most radical

219
00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,000
Speaker 4: wing of these splinter groups. So there was that story.

220
00:10:58,040 --> 00:10:59,680
Speaker 4: And then, as I mentioned, there was a second story

221
00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,040
Speaker 4: about the these countercultural people who had always denied that

222
00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,839
Speaker 4: they were involved in national socialism or the level of it.

223
00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:07,960
Speaker 4: It was just a joke. All these things that we

224
00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,400
Speaker 4: hear today almost word for word. And so I found

225
00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,880
Speaker 4: all their letters to James Mason, and they're adorned with

226
00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,520
Speaker 4: swastikas and eight eights and they're helping him. Had they

227
00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,240
Speaker 4: reveal the extent that they helped him? And the funny

228
00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,920
Speaker 4: thing is a lot of this stuff was actually available

229
00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:23,760
Speaker 4: and out in the open. It was published books, but

230
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:26,720
Speaker 4: it was like little pieces of flakes of gold scattered

231
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,440
Speaker 4: around everything. And I started picking them up because I

232
00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,320
Speaker 4: realized you could put them together. And so one article

233
00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,280
Speaker 4: turned out was supposed to be one article, and then

234
00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,560
Speaker 4: it turns two articles. And I sat down to write

235
00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:38,720
Speaker 4: it and turned into a book. And then five years

236
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,640
Speaker 4: later I finally had the manuscript done, then took another

237
00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,480
Speaker 4: year at the publishers, and then it came out last year.

238
00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,080
Speaker 4: So it's been seven years of work, and I've been

239
00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,120
Speaker 4: going around doing talks. I did seventeen talks and support

240
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,199
Speaker 4: of the book and as many podcasts and stuff. So

241
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:55,760
Speaker 4: I'm still the book is still part of my life,

242
00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,000
Speaker 4: as much as I would like to sort of put

243
00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,200
Speaker 4: it down. But thank you Remedy on the podcast this

244
00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,199
Speaker 4: is not It's great they have me on the podcast

245
00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,760
Speaker 4: Not Against No diss against you. No shade, no shade no.

246
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,640
Speaker 3: And I'm so I'm so jealous of your trip to

247
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:10,120
Speaker 3: Kansas to see the archives.

248
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:12,280
Speaker 2: I only recently.

249
00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,960
Speaker 3: A year or two, discovered that his papers existed in

250
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,160
Speaker 3: those archives, and so I wrote to the archivist and

251
00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,400
Speaker 3: I said, like, you know, are any of these digitized?

252
00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:20,800
Speaker 3: I would love to see them. And they're like, you know,

253
00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:22,960
Speaker 3: we've only digitized like one box. And they sent me

254
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,320
Speaker 3: a couple of a couple of scans, but most of

255
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:27,480
Speaker 3: it has not been digitized. So you have to go

256
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:31,119
Speaker 3: to Kansas if you want to read this old pedophile

257
00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,160
Speaker 3: Nazis letters to Charles Manson.

258
00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,120
Speaker 4: Well, I do have thousands of pictures I took of

259
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,680
Speaker 4: this correspondence. So yeah, if you request digital copies, they

260
00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,840
Speaker 4: won't tell you what they've digitized. And so it's it's

261
00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,959
Speaker 4: like you know, trying to like randomly throw darts or something.

262
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:47,760
Speaker 4: If you get the right file, they have them.

263
00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:49,800
Speaker 2: And I was like, I was begging and pleading.

264
00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:51,680
Speaker 3: I was like, please, just like any letters you have

265
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:53,680
Speaker 3: with Bob Hyke, I just I just want the Bob

266
00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:54,400
Speaker 3: Hike letters.

267
00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,400
Speaker 4: But I can give you the Bob Hike letters.

268
00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:58,240
Speaker 2: I would love those.

269
00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,240
Speaker 4: I think they'll they'll digitize stuff for a price.

270
00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:03,880
Speaker 2: Though, Oh I'm sure. I'm sure if I pay for it,

271
00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:05,040
Speaker 2: they would do me the favor.

272
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,640
Speaker 3: But that's the thing is that there's so much interconnection

273
00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,440
Speaker 3: here because these stories always get told episodically, right, like

274
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,480
Speaker 3: the story of James Mason and Adam Woffen, the story

275
00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,679
Speaker 3: of William Luther Peers, the story of the founding of

276
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,160
Speaker 3: the National Socialist Movement. But nobody takes those pieces and

277
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:26,040
Speaker 3: slots them together because they interlock. They all interlock, right,

278
00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,080
Speaker 3: And so this idea of the lone wolf, I mean,

279
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,840
Speaker 3: I guess James Mason's life's work is to perpetuate and

280
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,920
Speaker 3: motivate the lone wolf, But is it really a lone

281
00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:36,280
Speaker 3: wolf if he's training them?

282
00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,959
Speaker 4: Well, the lone wolf question is a long question. A

283
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,040
Speaker 4: lot of people know Metzger moved to the lone wolf

284
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:46,080
Speaker 4: strategy after a war was sued by the SPLC and collapse,

285
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,480
Speaker 4: but Mason was advocating this beforehand and was very tight

286
00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,360
Speaker 4: with Metzger. So there is actually a book describing what

287
00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:55,760
Speaker 4: you've said, putting the pieces together, and it's called Neo

288
00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:57,880
Speaker 4: Nazi terrorism and counterculture.

289
00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,040
Speaker 2: Has exactly the I think which you can buy to.

290
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:02,560
Speaker 3: I mean, like I said, it's the only book that

291
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,760
Speaker 3: I know of that fits these pieces together.

292
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,040
Speaker 4: No, it is the only book. Actually. I've been in

293
00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,200
Speaker 4: contact with James Mason, and he said when radio interview,

294
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,120
Speaker 4: it's not the first of its kind, but it's the

295
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:14,160
Speaker 4: best of its kind.

296
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:29,560
Speaker 3: A high praise from the book's Nazi pedophile subject. Why

297
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,840
Speaker 3: did he donate his papers to the library because, like

298
00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,960
Speaker 3: you said, most people are not only not preserving these

299
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:36,840
Speaker 3: items where they're not preserving them at all because they

300
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,960
Speaker 3: know what they've done is illegal or embarrassing to everyone involved,

301
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:44,360
Speaker 3: and they're intentionally destroying the evidence of these kinds of communications.

302
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,080
Speaker 3: But he not only saved them, but he wanted to

303
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,720
Speaker 3: make sure we could read them. Did you talk to

304
00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:50,920
Speaker 3: him at all about why he did that?

305
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,800
Speaker 4: Well, he sold them. He was a wheeler dealer in

306
00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,840
Speaker 4: especially American Nazi Party memorabilia. You know, he sold furniture

307
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,840
Speaker 4: on the side like antiques. He'd go antiquing and he

308
00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,480
Speaker 4: if you've seen pictures of his apartment, it's filled with

309
00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,120
Speaker 4: Nazi nickknacks, right, he's got a knife collection.

310
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,440
Speaker 3: Maybe it looks like it looks like the Area Nation's

311
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:12,800
Speaker 3: booth at the Tulsa Gun Show.

312
00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,640
Speaker 4: It looks like my apartment, but like the in the

313
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:21,760
Speaker 4: inverse and fewer plants. So he was a collector, so

314
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,280
Speaker 4: he was already on. My understanding is he was already

315
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,800
Speaker 4: selling George Lincoln Rockwell Memory of Bilia or whatever papers

316
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,640
Speaker 4: in such two Kansas. They have this collection there called

317
00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,400
Speaker 4: the Wilcox Collection of anti extremist stuff. This guy, Laard

318
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,200
Speaker 4: Wilcox had been in early students for Democratic Society before

319
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,040
Speaker 4: they took the like Marxist turn, and then decided that

320
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,560
Speaker 4: the left and the right were the same, like in

321
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,520
Speaker 4: the seventies or something, and started collecting all this material.

322
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,960
Speaker 4: So they were one of the they're probably the biggest

323
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,160
Speaker 4: collection of far right material. And as I said, at

324
00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,280
Speaker 4: the time, libraries weren't collecting it, and people weren't writing

325
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:55,960
Speaker 4: about it. They were like, oh, these are just a

326
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,200
Speaker 4: bunch of kooks and wing nuts. They're not important. And

327
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,120
Speaker 4: some of this is because, like as I say in

328
00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,960
Speaker 4: the book, the first neo Nazi mass murder wasn't until

329
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,080
Speaker 4: the late seventies, like it was what we know as

330
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,600
Speaker 4: neo Nazism today really only emerged in the seventies. Is

331
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,320
Speaker 4: one of my arguments in the book. So the papers

332
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:15,040
Speaker 4: were there because he sold them. The second thing is

333
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:19,840
Speaker 4: he is unique, I think, not unique, but very uncommon,

334
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,680
Speaker 4: because he is an unabashed neo Nazi. He does not

335
00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,600
Speaker 4: try to hide it. He is not like the NSM,

336
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:30,240
Speaker 4: which is actually a party he co founded, shockingly, but

337
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,000
Speaker 4: left over that as they turned, because originally it was

338
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,040
Speaker 4: to promote violence, and then as it turned to a

339
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,800
Speaker 4: more traditional Hollywood Nazi party, he left. But it's the

340
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,080
Speaker 4: same one that was at Charlottesville, and Jeff's Scoop was

341
00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,840
Speaker 4: the head of I actually taught Jeff Scoop about how

342
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,560
Speaker 4: the party was founded. That was very interesting. I interviewed

343
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:46,280
Speaker 4: him for the book.

344
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:48,479
Speaker 2: Another one of those dishonest actors.

345
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,240
Speaker 4: Well, the guy who had made him the head of

346
00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,880
Speaker 4: the party, who was actually the second head, Harrington, cliff Harrington.

347
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,000
Speaker 4: Clifford Harrington did not give him the truthful account of

348
00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,000
Speaker 4: the parties founding. Harrington claimed he was a co founder,

349
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,240
Speaker 4: and he wasn't. He claimed a different date. This is

350
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,600
Speaker 4: one reason I spent so much time on stuff. Also

351
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:06,679
Speaker 4: that I found all these things that had been printed that

352
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,960
Speaker 4: were wrong by scholars and others that were and it

353
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:11,720
Speaker 4: wasn't their fault. They were taken. It was hard to

354
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,960
Speaker 4: get these harder to get these documents, especially when a

355
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,600
Speaker 4: group is moving. And so Harrington claimed he had been

356
00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,000
Speaker 4: a co founder in nineteen seventy four or whatever, but

357
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,960
Speaker 4: he was lying. Mason was one of the co founders

358
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:27,080
Speaker 4: and not him. He only became the head in the eighties.

359
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,800
Speaker 4: So this is some of this stuff I found. Anyway,

360
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:31,320
Speaker 4: I was gonna say the NSM at one point go,

361
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,800
Speaker 4: we're not neo Nazis, were National Socialists.

362
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,199
Speaker 5: I was like, get the fuck out of here, like really, like,

363
00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:41,600
Speaker 5: come all, your flag is a swastikonic ah. I mean,

364
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,280
Speaker 5: this is absurd, but people will do that, right, It's

365
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,480
Speaker 5: like the Dead Parents skit in Monty Python.

366
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,399
Speaker 4: If people know this and so. But Mason stands out

367
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,880
Speaker 4: because he's always been very upfront about his views. He's

368
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,520
Speaker 4: very proud of them. He's not ashamed. And if this

369
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,960
Speaker 4: is embarrassed other people, they didn't belong He's as he

370
00:17:58,000 --> 00:17:59,760
Speaker 4: told to me, they didn't believe in the one true

371
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,360
Speaker 4: really religion. So I asked him about these counterculture figures

372
00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:05,879
Speaker 4: who have denied they were ever involved in this stuff.

373
00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,280
Speaker 4: At the time, he was convinced they were national socialists,

374
00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,400
Speaker 4: and he was like, well, they believed in something else

375
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,359
Speaker 4: other than the one True faith. I think that's the

376
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,600
Speaker 4: word he used. So yeah, he is nothing to hide.

377
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:19,720
Speaker 4: He's very open about it, very open about promoting terrorism,

378
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,119
Speaker 4: as you know, and maybe some of the listeners do.

379
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,359
Speaker 4: Young neo Nazis go to his apartment and he tutors them.

380
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,040
Speaker 4: They take pictures with him. This included Sam Woodward, who

381
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,040
Speaker 4: murdered a young gay Jewish man Blaze Bernstein, recently sentenced

382
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,360
Speaker 4: to life in prison. There's pictures a Woodward in Mason's apartment.

383
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,639
Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean he wants as he's proud of

384
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,840
Speaker 4: his lineage and he wants it documented. And I know

385
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,200
Speaker 4: I did him a favor by writing a book about

386
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,159
Speaker 4: his movement. I mean, they don't have the intellectuals and

387
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:51,080
Speaker 4: the resources to in the trained people to write historical books,

388
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,560
Speaker 4: and I did it a pretty straight up book. Even

389
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,919
Speaker 4: Mason was like, I kept waiting to read the smear.

390
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,080
Speaker 4: I kept waiting for the smear. There was no smear.

391
00:18:58,240 --> 00:18:59,560
Speaker 4: I was like, yeah, I just wrote it as a

392
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,960
Speaker 4: street book. And so in a way, I've given them

393
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,560
Speaker 4: an insight into their history, which wouldn't exist otherwise. So

394
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:08,800
Speaker 4: this stuff is always a double edged sword when you

395
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,600
Speaker 4: cover as you know, when you cover fascist groups, they

396
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,440
Speaker 4: want the publicity by and large. I was told sometimes

397
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,399
Speaker 4: at the SPLC, like groups contact them and they're like,

398
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,280
Speaker 4: cover us, give us coverage.

399
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:21,280
Speaker 2: Sending them their press releases.

400
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:22,960
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

401
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,120
Speaker 3: But I mean I think someone like Mason, I guess

402
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:26,960
Speaker 3: he doesn't see this mirror because, like you said, he's

403
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,560
Speaker 3: proud of himself. So this is I think, is an

404
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:34,040
Speaker 3: honest appraisal of his legacy, and most people would see

405
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:35,359
Speaker 3: that as a smear, but he's proud of it.

406
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,480
Speaker 4: Well, it's not a smear. I don't need to say

407
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,359
Speaker 4: anything bad about him. He's he's there promoting Nazi terrorism.

408
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,920
Speaker 4: What's the point of, like, you know, denouncing this or something.

409
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,680
Speaker 3: I mean, Whereas I think someone like Pierce, I think

410
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,520
Speaker 3: sometimes when people write honestly about Peer, obviously he's been

411
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,959
Speaker 3: dead for twenty five years, but he resisted the characterization

412
00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,920
Speaker 3: that he was inciting terrorism, even though he, like Mays

413
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:01,000
Speaker 3: and very much was.

414
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,879
Speaker 4: Oh well, Pierce is just the liar. I mean, all

415
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:04,560
Speaker 4: these guys.

416
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 2: Exactly, That's what I mean. But I think a book

417
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:07,679
Speaker 2: like this about Pierce.

418
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,359
Speaker 3: I think he would not have enjoyed, whereas Mason is

419
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,200
Speaker 3: at least honest about his legacy.

420
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:14,959
Speaker 4: You know, there is a terrible book about Pierce by

421
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,800
Speaker 4: one of the sick of fants who is a professor actually.

422
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:18,359
Speaker 2: Ardess Griffin.

423
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that again, that is one of those dishonest histories.

424
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:24,720
Speaker 3: I think we were talking before we started recording that

425
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,520
Speaker 3: the problem with archival research trying to write a history

426
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,600
Speaker 3: of these movements is they are dishonest actors.

427
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 2: And so Robert S. Griffin, he wrote what is it

428
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:35,439
Speaker 2: the Fame of a dead Man's Deeds?

429
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:35,720
Speaker 4: Yes?

430
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:36,520
Speaker 2: Is that what it's called.

431
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,280
Speaker 3: He went into it, you know, saying like, I'm going

432
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,600
Speaker 3: to write this neutral appraisal of this figure of the movement,

433
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,080
Speaker 3: about Willie Luther Pierce, and over the weeks that he

434
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,760
Speaker 3: spent on the compound to write it, and he spent

435
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,200
Speaker 3: time with Pierce on the compound in Hillsborough, became radicalized

436
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:53,160
Speaker 3: and is a Nazi.

437
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 2: Now are he still alive?

438
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:56,840
Speaker 3: I mean, he could take issue with that characterization if

439
00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,359
Speaker 3: he wants, But yes, I'm sure you've read the book.

440
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,719
Speaker 2: It's not neutral. It's a has giography of Peers.

441
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's actually a book by Pierce's son too, which

442
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 4: is interesting.

443
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:08,920
Speaker 2: I've read that it's quite good.

444
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 4: Well, unfortunately a lot of it's copy pasta.

445
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 3: But I think his insight into his relationship with his

446
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,679
Speaker 3: father is very unique. It is called The Sins of

447
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 3: My Father by Kelvin Pearce. Yeah, I mean that's a

448
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,080
Speaker 3: window you don't often get, although I guess now we do.

449
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,280
Speaker 3: Also have The Klansman's Son by Don Black's.

450
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,680
Speaker 4: Daughter Black's daughter or son.

451
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:29,919
Speaker 2: She has transitions.

452
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 4: Oh, I did not know that, well, Mazeltov. Yeah, yeah,

453
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,760
Speaker 4: I remember reading their work before Trump, and they actually

454
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 4: wrote one of the most moving resignations from the movement

455
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 4: that I've read, very much taking you know, being accountable

456
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 4: even though they were raised in it. I feel like

457
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,239
Speaker 4: children raised in this are not like as accountable as

458
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 4: adults are, right, especially like they were in college at

459
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 4: the time. But it was like a true interesting working

460
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 4: through it, and I felt like heartfelt apology for it.

461
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 4: And yeah, actually, this is a fun fact. You may

462
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 4: know a member of the Aryan Nationalist Action A and A.

463
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 4: This terrorist is a bank robbing group from the eighties.

464
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 4: I think became the first person to transition gender.

465
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 2: From Donald Langen.

466
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 3: Donna Langen was known as pretty Boy Pedro when she

467
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 3: was the head of the Rigan Republican Armies. It a

468
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 3: bank robbery gang out of Allahem City.

469
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

470
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 3: She was the first person to win a battle with

471
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 3: the federal government to transition in.

472
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 4: Federal prison to get surgery.

473
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

474
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 3: And just recently, actually, there was a filing in her case.

475
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 3: She's trying to get the way the case is titled

476
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:37,679
Speaker 3: in the court records.

477
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 2: Is still Peter.

478
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 3: Langen, her dead name, and the judge denied her petition

479
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 3: to retitle the case.

480
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 2: But she has transitioned and is in a women's prison.

481
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 4: Is she in Texas?

482
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I could look up in the BOP where

483
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 2: she is.

484
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 4: Texas bands prisoners from changing their names.

485
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 2: She is in FMC cars.

486
00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 4: That isn't in Dallas, Texas. Yeah, yeah, that's yeah, that's why.

487
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 3: So she's still in the BOP system under her dead name,

488
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 3: but she was allowed to physically transition. So that's again

489
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 3: just a strange twist of history, right that the person

490
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 3: who won that legal model for us was a Nazi

491
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 3: bank robber.

492
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:19,159
Speaker 4: Well, she has also long repudiated those politics, so I

493
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 4: think she's been the only person to have surgery, transperson

494
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 4: to have surgery who was imprisoned at the time, because

495
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 4: I think that was recently and then everything, you know,

496
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 4: everything they changed. They I know that they slowed down

497
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 4: their trans policies waiting to see the results of the election.

498
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 4: So for a strange reason, I know, actually a bunch

499
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 4: of the stuff about trans people in prison and.

500
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,719
Speaker 3: So anyway, No, it's I mean, it's a remarkable, remarkable history.

501
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

502
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, So you started writing this book after Unite the

503
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 3: Right because there was this renewed interest in Siege. I mean,

504
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 3: I guess what has the experience been like, you know,

505
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 3: over the course of spending the last six years of

506
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 3: your life working on this, realizing that it is only

507
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 3: because becoming more relevant and not less.

508
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 4: Well, the problem is is like for people like us

509
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 4: who watch the far right, like our work is only

510
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 4: important or people are only interested in it when there

511
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 4: is a big upswing, and then like that's when people

512
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 4: are interested, and that's when it is more important. So

513
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,360
Speaker 4: on one hand, it's good that I didn't spend five

514
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 4: years and then no one remembered what Siege was and

515
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 4: it was just a blip. I mean, that's good for me,

516
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 4: But I have to say what's good for me is

517
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 4: bad for society, and so, I mean.

518
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 3: I think it would have been an important work of

519
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 3: history regardless. But I guess as you're working on it,

520
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,640
Speaker 3: realizing that the body count is only growing.

521
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's I don't know, I don't really you know,

522
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 4: what do you say about that? I call these people

523
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 4: empty people spreading emptiness. Like it's hard for me even

524
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,399
Speaker 4: to get mad at the more aggressive neo Nazis and

525
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 4: white supremacists, Like often they're young, and I just see

526
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 4: like sad young people who can't deal with their problems,

527
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 4: engaged in like hurting other people who are often not

528
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,959
Speaker 4: so different than them, you know. I mean there's a

529
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 4: trans man who was in Adam. Often, you know, like

530
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:12,959
Speaker 4: they're numerous stories of people being you know, of not

531
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 4: white descent, either they're hiding that they're not, or they're

532
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 4: a mixed race descent and they're sort of passing as

533
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 4: wide of being Jewish, of being queer, all this stuff.

534
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 4: The movement's filled with these people. Sometimes it's the people

535
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 4: are even like how many straight white men are there

536
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 4: in the movement, Like and it's just sad. You're like,

537
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 4: I see you're being attracted to this because you're so alienated,

538
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 4: or you're so your identity is so shaky that you

539
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 4: are attracted to this idea of a firm, strong identity.

540
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 4: And I mean sometimes people forget fascism in Italy and

541
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 4: Germany arose and basically the last two countries that arose

542
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 4: and solidified in Europe, like those were countries that wasn't

543
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 4: clear what Italy was going to be. There's such differences

544
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 4: between the north and the south. There's no reason, Like

545
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 4: it was unclear originally whether Germany was going to be

546
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 4: Austria too, you know, and so they were. It's a

547
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 4: way part of fascism is shoring up that national identity

548
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 4: which was very fragmented, and it works the same I

549
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 4: think with people's identities. And one of the things that

550
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 4: attracts people to neo Nazism, I think is this strong

551
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 4: affirmation of an identity, and people with mixed identities or

552
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 4: conflicted about it or filled with self loathing are drawn

553
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 4: to this for that reason. One of the many reasons

554
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 4: people get drawn into these things.

555
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 2: And they recruit so young.

556
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I think in the book you're talking about this,

557
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,440
Speaker 3: you know, all the way back to James Mason's origins

558
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 3: that he became interested in the Nazi Party as a

559
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 3: fourteen year.

560
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 4: Old, joined it, joined it at fourteen.

561
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 3: So he's a child, right getting into this movement, and

562
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 3: now that he is an old man, he is in

563
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 3: turn in doctrinating children. Right that Adam Woffen members are

564
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 3: very young, I guess were Adam Woffin technically doesn't exist anymore,

565
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 3: but most of the most of the young men who

566
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 3: spilled blood for Adam Waffen were twenty years old years old.

567
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 4: And you know, someone pointed out the founder of the

568
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 4: feuer Krieg Division when he founded it was twelve. He

569
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 4: was arrested when he was thirteen or fourteen, but he

570
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 4: founded it at twelve.

571
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 3: And which tragic, obviously tragic, heartbreaking, disgusting. But imagine being

572
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 3: one of the adults who was in that group and

573
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,360
Speaker 3: finding out that your fear was twelve.

574
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 4: I grew up in the South in an extremely Protestant

575
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 4: area at the height of that like eighties fundamentals Christian

576
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 4: Christian right thing, and there were I knew about. These

577
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 4: are kind of an older thing. Child preachers. Have you

578
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 4: ever heard of child preachers? This was a big thing during.

579
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 3: The Yeah, they speak in tongues and they sort of

580
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 3: parrot the cadence of the way adults speak.

581
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 2: But if you listen carefully, they're not saying anything.

582
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 4: If they've memorized the way that adults give these barn

583
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 4: burning you know, adult Protestants evangelicals give these barn burning sermons,

584
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 4: but they don't necessarily understand what they're saying. And so,

585
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's pretty common people adults will

586
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,719
Speaker 4: do this and believe in what they're saying. Maybe they

587
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 4: understand it a little better. I think there's a bunch

588
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 4: of post structuralist academics who don't even understand what they're saying.

589
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 4: But that can happen too, And so I think people

590
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 4: like well, I don't know, I was a pretty smart

591
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 4: twelve year old. Maybe I would understand it better. But

592
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 4: you just need somebody repeating it. It's the slogans and

593
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 4: the narratives have already been formed by others. You're not

594
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,360
Speaker 4: necessarily innovating on it. As long as you can repeat

595
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 4: the dogma, it doesn't really matter who's saying. It doesn't

596
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 4: matter if you're if the person is gay or Jewish.

597
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: And I mean the Estonian twelve year old was not

598
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 2: a one off.

599
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 3: You know. In the Ethan Melzer case a year or

600
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 3: two ago, Ethan Melzer was a US Army private who

601
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 3: was trying to set up his unit in Turkey to

602
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 3: be attacked by Middle Eastern terrorist groups. And the person

603
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 3: he was communicating with online sort of goading him into

604
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:54,959
Speaker 3: these acts was a child.

605
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 2: It was a child.

606
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 4: He was the Order of Nine Angles though right he

607
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 4: was on. He wasn't a near Nazi, right. I always

608
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 4: try to distinguish there's some nine A's who are not.

609
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 3: He was at the bleed point of Adam Waffin's splinter

610
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 3: group and Ona. He was involved with rape Waffen, was he? Yeah,

611
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 3: The lineage of these groups is so messy. I think

612
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 3: some of them don't even understand the ideological lineage of

613
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 3: the sect they've ended up in. But but Melzer was

614
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 3: at that sort of bleed point where Adam Woffin was

615
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 3: becoming ONA.

616
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 4: But I think what we're seeing now, and definitely in

617
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 4: these last two school shootings in the last month, is

618
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 4: a syncretic murder cull. The guy who just did the

619
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 4: Naspau one was black. But if you start looking at

620
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 4: both of their manifestos. They're referring to all different kinds

621
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 4: of things, some of whom are white supremacists and neo Nazis,

622
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 4: many of whom aren't just other school shooters, and they

623
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 4: don't seem to have a real ideological, necessarily connection to

624
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 4: some of this the political stuff. It's not become. And

625
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 4: nine A they are founded by neo Nazi and many

626
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:58,479
Speaker 4: of them are neo Nazis. And so I was going

627
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 4: to say they're not. They don't have to and all

628
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 4: the people are it, and even if you are supposed

629
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 4: to be, they aren't all. And so we're just getting

630
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 4: through these various online forums on Telegram and elsewhere. Sometimes

631
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 4: they just spread over all kinds of the different platforms.

632
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 4: We're getting just this syncretic mix of these things. And

633
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 4: this is one of the things that made nine A

634
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 4: and Siege Culture a parallel Mason's ideas, because Mason's not

635
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 4: a Satanist, and in fact he's recently denounced ordered at

636
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 4: angles and when he was around Satanists, they were atheist

637
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 4: Satanists around the Church of Satan. That when you start saying, hey,

638
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 4: we need to commit random murders in this goal of

639
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 4: destroying the suppose the Jewish controlled society, so there could

640
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 4: be a white arian revolution. Like, it doesn't matter if

641
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 4: you have a really political reason or if you're thinking

642
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 4: that these heretical acts will destroy somehow the consensus. Reality.

643
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 4: You're just trying to go people into these violent, random

644
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 4: acts of terrorism and more random murders.

645
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 2: Right, and the end result is the same they're.

646
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 4: Thinking is the same, and the end results is the same.

647
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 4: So they start cross pollinating. And then what's the difference

648
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 4: between the school shooter cults? You know, and now we

649
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 4: have groups like the Maniac murder cult who are ostensibly political,

650
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 4: ostensibly neo Nazi and Order of nine angle has been

651
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 4: a reality or just like go attack old people from behind.

652
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 4: I mean it's just pathetic stuff. Go, you know, beat

653
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 4: up homeless people and stab them. It's like at some

654
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 4: point often say this and my speeches, and it's become

655
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 4: more and more real. Is like everything blends together in

656
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 4: our society, I think. You know, you start with like

657
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 4: school shooters, and it's hard to distinguish them from like

658
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 4: a political mass shooters and from political mass shooters. Right

659
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 4: at one point, it just becomes this one thing that's

660
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 4: like all mixed together because we're having in the United States,

661
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 4: we're having these constant attacks and constant that often the

662
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 4: body account is very high. Like what becomes the difference anymore?

663
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 4: Does it really matter? Like the Allen Texas gott who

664
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 4: was a Latino neo Nazi who killed a bunch of

665
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 4: people in an outlet mall, this is really a neo

666
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 4: Nazi action, like he was, like clearly if you look

667
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 4: at his stuff or an article called Nazis of color

668
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 4: about this dynamic. But was his action how was his

669
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 4: action necessarily any different than like a school shooting or whatever,

670
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 4: or just like you know, it's just like he's going

671
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 4: somewhere and killing random people, Like what is this about?

672
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 4: So I think we're seeing this syncretic murdercal is really

673
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 4: I know, other people have different ways of posing this

674
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 4: that is sprawling out on different online platforms and appealing

675
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 4: to very young, alienated people, probably whose whole lives are

676
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 4: you know, online. I think, especially younger people who went

677
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 4: through COVID zoomers and I guess people younger than that

678
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 4: would be Generation Alpha spend more time online than any

679
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 4: other generation. Obviously they must, and this becomes especially when

680
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 4: they're much younger. The horizon other world, right, And if

681
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 4: they're in cells and they're not really connected to other

682
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 4: people and they're not connected to their family, like it

683
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 4: just it just dry gives these impulses more and more,

684
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 4: and they don't have the maturity to look outside of

685
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 4: it or to think about the repercussions of it, or

686
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 4: think of have the empathy to think about how it's

687
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 4: going to affect other people in their families.

688
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 3: And so when it comes to Siege, what would you

689
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 3: say its current role in this sort of evolving syncretic

690
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 3: murder culture that we have, is it is Siege's legacy

691
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 3: now just that it's ideological lineage lives on in sort

692
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 3: of the terogram milieu, or is it still itself influential?

693
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 4: Well, some of this is a question of ideas. I

694
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 4: think sometimes Siege acts as a symbol. People can gesture

695
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 4: that their neo Nazis is a serious neo Nazi four

696
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty page tone.

697
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 2: They didn't read it, They didn't all read it.

698
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, just like how many of you have

699
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 4: read Siege? And I found out doing the work that

700
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 4: there's like an edited one hundred page version and then

701
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 4: there's like a little pocket version and then someone even

702
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:12,240
Speaker 4: made the ten Tenants of Siege.

703
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 2: There's this the spark Notes murder called.

704
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 4: Well Adam often division apparently had a test on siege

705
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 4: to get in. And I'm like, I know these people

706
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 4: didn't write. They're like a lot of very disturbed or

707
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 4: you know, people who aren't gonna like it's a boring text.

708
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 4: I mean I read it twice in like.

709
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 3: I've read portions, but I'm not going to sit here

710
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 3: and say I read the whole book.

711
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 2: It's four hundred and fifty page.

712
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 4: Man, I read every newsletter and the book and it's yes, no. Oh,

713
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 4: So it acts as the symbol to be like, look,

714
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 4: we have a serious intellectual thing. How many Christians have

715
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:43,720
Speaker 4: read the Bible. Let's be really sorting.

716
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, I think that's the right analogy, right,

717
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 3: that it is a foundational text. But they're not all

718
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 3: sitting down and digesting or even understanding it.

719
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, how many Communists have read Dos Capital No,

720
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 4: even just volume one, which I have I would like

721
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 4: to say I have, Actually, is it more or less

722
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 4: boring than Siege? It's more intellectual? And so there's that,

723
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 4: and there's also like the conclusions are there, right, the

724
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 4: whole argument is developed in siege. But you really just

725
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 4: need to take the conclusions, which is you can't do

726
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 4: any political work. It's hopeless. You need to go out

727
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 4: and commit dramatic acts of violence to help inspire people,

728
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 4: and then you know, maybe afterwards there'll be some aaran

729
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 4: blah blah blah. Frankly, that's all you need to know

730
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,720
Speaker 4: about it, because that's what it advocates. You just need

731
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 4: the praxie that it concludes. And most activists aren't intellectuals.

732
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 4: Like I always say, like a movement can have three

733
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 4: slogans and what you need to do on the left,

734
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 4: you need to make sure those are the right slogans

735
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,439
Speaker 4: pointing in the right direction. Because somebody who flows into

736
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 4: activism who's young, it doesn't matter if they're young, doesn't

737
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 4: have a background of politics, is going to take the

738
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 4: thing seriously that you say. And you can only say

739
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 4: so many things to people. Political movements are stupid. I mean,

740
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 4: this is why we are the ninety nine percent was great?

741
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 4: It was it was great, wasn't true? I mean half

742
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 4: of Americans are like it, you know, support the Republicans,

743
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 4: but like it's like one thing and then the person

744
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 4: can think about those things. They're not going to have

745
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 4: complicated ideas. So what is what are the slogans that

746
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 4: come out of something? What are the basic what does

747
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 4: it boil down to the things you're saying? And people

748
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 4: have inherited that from Siege or inherited it secondhand, you know,

749
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 4: because Terogram is very well versed in what Siege is about.

750
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 4: I mean, Adam often had to read it, so they

751
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 4: were more I think, into it as a text. And

752
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,439
Speaker 4: then as it's gone out, you know, Tarogram people, the

753
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 4: Teogram collective certainly knew what was in it and stuff,

754
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 4: and so people are being affected by it even if

755
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,359
Speaker 4: they don't know, even if they haven't read, or even

756
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 4: if they don't know, that's the origin of those.

757
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: Ideas, right. So Tterogram is directly downstream of Siege.

758
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 5: Right.

759
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,280
Speaker 3: So Siege was a newsletter that became a book. People

760
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 3: read the book, and the people who read that book

761
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 3: turned it back into a zine. Right, So it's it's

762
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 3: sort of oh to someone, right, it's moving through its

763
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 3: phases and now it's regressed sing back into sort of

764
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 3: mimetic zine form.

765
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 4: But people who join these movements who want something more

766
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,760
Speaker 4: intellectual because everyone who joins a religious or political movement.

767
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 4: Some people want a more rigorous They're like, well, what's

768
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 4: the reason for this? Well, I have these questions. How

769
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 4: do you answer them? What is why are we doing this?

770
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 4: Want more rigorous? Some people want a more rigorous background

771
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 4: can turn to siege, and as they get older, will

772
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 4: turn to siege or move out of it. And they're like,

773
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 4: what were the ideas behind this? Why did we have

774
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,880
Speaker 4: these ideas? And I think that's it's normal. I mean,

775
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 4: there are all kinds of weird intellectual groundings for white supremacists.

776
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 4: A lot of it is theology, which is sort of curious.

777
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 4: And I kind of concluded at some point that you

778
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,240
Speaker 4: just needed something complicated because they couldn't use race science anymore,

779
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 4: and they weren't people who developed social science other than

780
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 4: someone like a Londebenoist who's saying something much more complicated

781
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 4: than most white supremacis are. And so like theology just

782
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 4: allowed something intellectual for people to chew on, you know

783
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 4: what I mean, Like people are real smart who aren't

784
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 4: very analytical, one something to chew on with the ideas,

785
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 4: whether it really changes their practice or not. And I

786
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 4: think there has to be something that serves that need.

787
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 3: And so I guess wrapping up because we're supposed to

788
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 3: keep these daily shows short. What is the takeaway that

789
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 3: you want people to come away from this book with?

790
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 3: I guess, especially in this political moment.

791
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 4: I think there's two things. The book has two things. One,

792
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 4: I just want to have people have a better understanding

793
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 4: of neo Nazism in the US and how it developed.

794
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 4: It's just one big blur. It's part of other things,

795
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 4: and I see it as a distinct strain, and I

796
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 4: want people to have a just a better understanding of

797
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 4: that political movements origins, which is maybe a more scholarly thing.

798
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 4: And I am my next book, I hope if I

799
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 4: can get a contract, is to write a history of

800
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 4: national socialism in America, because again there's not a single

801
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 4: book that describes that, which is very strange. Certainly not

802
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 4: a history post war, and there may be a pre

803
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 4: war one, but not one that puts it all together.

804
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 4: So there's a lot of ignorance about this movement. And

805
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 4: the second part about the cultural actors is about the

806
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,479
Speaker 4: danger of taking a radical culture movement and to use

807
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 4: impulses like transgression and turn them into the very toxic

808
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,879
Speaker 4: politics into terrorist politics. At the end of the day,

809
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 4: I had a discussion on Blue Sky. It was amazing.

810
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 4: You could see. It wasn't Twitter. I had a useful

811
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 4: discussion on Blue Sky and where I learned something. It

812
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 4: was just fabulous, And it was this woman posted that

813
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 4: which was like essentially in Matzau I read it. In

814
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 4: the twentieth century, there was always this assumption that transgressive art,

815
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 4: avant garde art was implicitly progressive. Sometimes it was ideological,

816
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 4: but even when it wasn't, even when it had some

817
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 4: dodgy elements, the impulse of it led to progressive, left

818
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 4: leaning politics, and it's very transgression was progressive. And I

819
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 4: mean these guys I'm looking at are and working in

820
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 4: the eighties and you see it now. We've all seen

821
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,919
Speaker 4: it with four Chan like that was never that isn't true,

822
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 4: and that was never true, never true, right, I mean,

823
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 4: those of us in the punk scene in the eighties

824
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,959
Speaker 4: and nineties could see this, and if we certainly didn't

825
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 4: put it that way. With like Skinheads in particular, it

826
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 4: was contested terrain where people were trying to take the

827
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 4: subculture and pull it to the left and right right.

828
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:10,680
Speaker 4: There were so many Nazis, but there were anti fascist

829
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 4: skinheads too, Sharps. Sharps to some extent, Sharps were a

830
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 4: lot of them are rightling nationalists, they just weren't just Nazis.

831
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 4: This is a common There was grips like rash Red

832
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 4: and anarchist skinheads who still exist. But there was a

833
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 4: contested terrain where people trying to pull it in different directions.

834
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 4: This is still the case in neo folk and heathen

835
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 4: religious circles, and that's sort of you There's an implication

836
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 4: which I don't think I can only like put it

837
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 4: into words now, that like the transgressive elements of these

838
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 4: subcultures didn't necessarily go one way or the other, and

839
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 4: it was something you'd have to fight over, Like they

840
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 4: could go and have any direction. And I think it

841
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 4: was clear in four Chan early on. I once was

842
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 4: mentioned very early on in four Chan and someone chimed

843
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 4: in and they're like, leave them alone. He's my friend,

844
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,479
Speaker 4: And I'm like, which of my friends are on four

845
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 4: Chan and defending me? But like four Chan didn't have

846
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 4: to end up the way it did. You know, the

847
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 4: earlier Internet culture wasn't like this. It was progressive or

848
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 4: libertarian or a more decent libertarian for reading of libertarianism

849
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 4: than we have now. So that's the second part. I mean,

850
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 4: other than these guys, if you ever were in the

851
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 4: industrial or neo folk scene and you heard about there's Nazis,

852
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 4: I have all of the receipt in detail in the book.

853
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 4: If that's of interest to you.

854
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, Boyd Rice will tell you he never meant it,

855
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 3: but I've read some of the primary documents that lead

856
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 3: me to believe otherwise.

857
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:29,479
Speaker 5: Yeah.

858
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,760
Speaker 4: And I even made a video of him creatively entitled

859
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 4: Boyd Rice New Nazi Collaborator. And I know you're like, Spencer,

860
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 4: what are you really getting at here? And I show

861
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 4: the letters and stuff, and just if you're not familiar

862
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 4: with these figures, I know a lot of people there

863
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 4: were very obscure movements at the time, and you know,

864
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 4: people are not familiar with them. But I think are

865
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,760
Speaker 4: familiar enough with this idea of like a super radical

866
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 4: cultural movement about step by step I show how it

867
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,399
Speaker 4: can move into fully politicized a transgressive movement can move

868
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 4: into a fully politicized super time neo Nazism that is

869
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 4: espousing terrorism, and that that this is something that we

870
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 4: always have to watch out for in our own religious

871
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 4: movements and our own cultural movements and occult circles. I

872
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 4: just did a podcast with some you know, occult style

873
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:18,240
Speaker 4: esoteric podcast and I was talking about Satanists to become Nazis.

874
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 4: Satanists are sort of, I would say, split these days,

875
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 4: but there's definitely a Nazi, you know, peace in there

876
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 4: are a very visible one. And so some of it's just

877
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:27,240
Speaker 4: about these things.

878
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 3: That's an important takeaway too that you know, in any subculture,

879
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,399
Speaker 3: especially these sort of transgressive subcultures like you know, counterculture

880
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 3: music and art and you know, occult spaces, you have

881
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 3: a magical practice.

882
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: That you engage in. People who engage in you know,

883
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 2: practice pagan faiths and all these subcultures.

884
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 3: You need to call out these bad actors early and

885
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 3: often push back, don't let them bully you, and push

886
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 3: them out of your spaces.

887
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 4: Absolutely, and Nazis ruin everything. They intentionally go into all

888
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 4: these spaces and sometimes don't intentionally. Actually this was a

889
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 4: comment on Stormfront I learned from talking about Nazis in

890
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 4: the animal rights movement, and they're like, Spencer doesn't understand.

891
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 4: We're not infiltrating these movements. We're just vegans. We're just

892
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 4: also Nazis. Like, but we're not vegans because we're Nazis.

893
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,240
Speaker 4: We're not coming here from some other reason.

894
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 2: Well, you can't let them sit with you either way.

895
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 4: Well, this is a funny story. I don't know if

896
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 4: you have tied, but I heard this story from a

897
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,359
Speaker 4: friend of mine that they were in a vegan group

898
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 4: in southern California, I think, and they had a unofficial party,

899
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 4: like a barbecue. It's people from the group, you know,

900
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 4: from the group doing it. People brought their partners. It

901
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 4: wasn't an official group function. But this white member of

902
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 4: the group brought her husband, who was Kevin McDonald. Oh,

903
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 4: and they were vegetarians or vegans, and people were like

904
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 4: holy fuck. And he was like, I mean, I feel

905
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 4: a little sympathetic to me. He's like, hey, man, I

906
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 4: don't know. I'm just I'm a I'm a vegetarian or whatever.

907
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 4: I'm here with my wife. She's going to a party.

908
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 2: Like, no, you're not allowed to have friends. You're not

909
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 2: allowed to have friends, you're not allowed to have hobbies.

910
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 2: You can't be here.

911
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, But he's like, I'm not here to recruit anyone.

912
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 4: I'm here. You know what I mean.

913
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 3: It's the barbecue is over with the race scientist shows up.

914
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 4: Well, this became a big discussion in the group about

915
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 4: whether to push him out or not. But you have

916
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 4: to do these things. And if you even if you

917
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 4: don't want to, they're my friend or everyone's welcome or whatever.

918
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 4: What is gonna end up happening if you don't push

919
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 4: the Nazi out is that more Nazis show up. Well,

920
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 4: if you if it's a single person, people are gonna

921
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 4: start leaving. People of color are gonna leave, Jews are

922
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 4: gonna leave, LGBTQ plus people are gonna leave, and you're

923
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 4: gonna end up defending this one person losing many more. So,

924
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,720
Speaker 4: even just on your own, you know, enlightened self interest,

925
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 4: if you want to keep your group together. I've seen

926
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 4: this again and again and again, and then they're like,

927
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 4: you're defending a Nazi, so you're one too, So yeah,

928
00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 4: you got to kick these people out, even just for

929
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 4: practical reasons. I have a very low bar for people

930
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 4: these days, and I try to I try to appeal.

931
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 4: I try to appeal to the baser reasons sometimes with people,

932
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 4: you know.

933
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 3: Well, if you would like to learn more about how

934
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 3: a couple of guys in the counterculture movement in the

935
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 3: eighties are responsible for the publication of the book that

936
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 3: serves as the bible for modern Nazi terrorism. You can

937
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 3: pick up a copy of Neo Nazi Terrorism and Countercultural Fascism,

938
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 3: The Origins and Afterlife of James Mason's Siege by Spencer

939
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 3: Sunshine from Routlige Press is available I think wherever books

940
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 3: are sold. I bought my copy directly from the publisher

941
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 3: Routledge Press. I think it was only twenty seven dollars.

942
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 2: You know, a bargain and.

943
00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 3: A steal, So pick up a copy of that and

944
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 3: where else can people find your work?

945
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 2: Spencer?

946
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 4: Thank you for now that you mentioned that. I am

947
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 4: on all of the socials usually at Transform sixt seven,

948
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 4: eight nine. Have a web page if you want, if

949
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 4: you have an RSS fee. If someone said this recently,

950
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 4: they're like, it's actually one of the better ways to

951
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,240
Speaker 4: keep track of people, as like this is your follow

952
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 4: rezillion people anyway, Spencersunshine dot com. Also, if you'd like

953
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 4: to support anti fascist research and get a warm, fuzzy feeling,

954
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 4: you should sign up for my Patreon for as little

955
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 4: as two dollars a month. You can help me out

956
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 4: with the rent and get some exclusive contact.

957
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 2: So yep, well hell yeah, thank you so much for

958
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 2: joining us today.

959
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me on the show. It's been great.

960
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: It Could Happened Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

961
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

962
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

963
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.

964
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 2: Listen to podcasts.

965
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 1: You can now find sources for It could Happen Here,

966
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.