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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Here we go, Welcome back. It's a podcast. Oh my god,

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Speaker 2: you're fuck yeah. I don't know why. I don't know

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Speaker 2: why I opened it that way.

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Speaker 1: Nobody does.

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Speaker 2: Nobody's gonna like that, and nobody's gonna be happy with it, Sophie,

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Speaker 2: What am I doing?

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Speaker 3: I think some of the fans really do like it.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if it's like a Stockholm suit.

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Speaker 2: They are sickos. They are sickos. You're right about that, Mollie.

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Speaker 3: Did it bring you joy?

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Speaker 2: Robert?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 2: Nothing does anymore believe that brings me joy is the

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Speaker 2: film Twisters, which I'm still gonna talk about. I know

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Speaker 2: I talked about it at the Tuesday opening. But you

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Speaker 2: know what I really appreciate about Twisters, Mollie, and about Twister.

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Speaker 3: Hopefully some of the fans have had time to see

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Speaker 3: it since they listened to the first episode, so now

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Speaker 3: they're on board.

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Speaker 2: You gotta go watch out and see it. You know,

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Speaker 2: you gotta go watch it. They're gonna stop making tornado

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Speaker 2: movies if we don't watch them, right, and then what's

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Speaker 2: gonna happen to Oklahoma's tour?

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Speaker 3: You have to support the tornado based economy.

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Speaker 2: What I love about these movies is that they all

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Speaker 2: decided and this is the smart decision from a filmmaking standpoint.

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Speaker 2: The tornadoes had to be sentient like these these are

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Speaker 2: tornadoes that have enemies and that have grudges and that

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Speaker 2: are targeting city centers to do as much damage as possible.

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Speaker 3: Talking about that, that's no.

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Speaker 2: There is a scene where the tornado roars at our

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Speaker 2: main characters and then throws a semi truck at them because.

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Speaker 3: They're fighting, Like these people are trying to destroy tornadoes.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes they are. They're going to war against

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Speaker 2: the tornadoes sold.

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Speaker 3: To just like learn from the tornado scientists. They want

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Speaker 3: to when you're.

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Speaker 2: Going to escalate. Yeah, the initial movie there, but their

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Speaker 2: goal is they want to learn from it so they

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Speaker 2: can predict them in so that what's her name doesn't

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Speaker 2: have her dad sucked out into the.

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Speaker 3: Sky again, right, that was about like predicting for like evacuation.

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Speaker 3: This is about like physically fighting it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, because no one So one of the through lines

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Speaker 2: and twisters is that no one who lives in Tornado

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Speaker 2: Alley has ever heard of a tornado or knows what

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Speaker 2: to do. None of the houses have shelters, and the

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Speaker 2: only people are are heroes who are a bunch of

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Speaker 2: like weirdo stormchaser YouTube nerds have to like go into

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Speaker 2: towns and warn everyone to evacuate because Oklahomans just don't

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Speaker 2: know about tornadoes and nobody.

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Speaker 3: Believes these out of towners.

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Speaker 2: Well, no, it's always very clear because there's a giant

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Speaker 2: tornado the size of an aircraft carrier in the sky.

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Speaker 1: Does Glenn Powell just like hip check the tornado and

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Speaker 1: his wrangular jeans and.

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Speaker 2: No, he drives a very cool truck and shoots fireworks

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Speaker 2: into it. So well, actually someone else forgot and irangular

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Speaker 2: jeans he's wearing. Well, i'd actually I don't think we

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Speaker 2: get a shirt.

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Speaker 3: Got sucked into the tornado.

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Speaker 2: He's very wet a lot of the time, though, so

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Speaker 2: he doesn't get to show off. Yeah, anyway, I guess

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Speaker 2: should we talk about this racist Molly?

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Speaker 3: I was having more fun talking about a sentient tornado,

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Speaker 3: but I knew that couldn't last.

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Speaker 2: It's less fun than Glenn Palell. I don't think Glenn

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Speaker 2: Palell has killed dozens of people.

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Speaker 3: You don't know? You know, actually we found out about

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Speaker 3: Army Hammer.

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Speaker 2: But here's what I'll say if Glenn Powell has been

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Speaker 2: killing people. I'm sure they're an even mix of white, black,

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Speaker 2: every color of the rainbow.

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Speaker 1: I just feel confident he didn't use dogs.

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Speaker 2: Definitely, not a not He would never never stoop to

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Speaker 2: dogs for his killing. He might use dogs. He might

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Speaker 2: use dogs. It's not a zero percent chance we're back.

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Speaker 2: I hope Glenn Powell is not a listener because we're

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Speaker 2: kind of being needlessly mean to a man as far

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Speaker 2: as I'm aware, hasn't ever done anything bad to anyone.

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Speaker 3: Sorry, I said you made Sorry.

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Speaker 2: There's there's a Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I still don't know who he is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's he's very good looking, Molly, but again in

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Speaker 2: a way that's kind of off putting. Yeah, he probably

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Speaker 2: he has to know that, right.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure he knows.

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Speaker 2: Lewis fan sure not very good looking in my opinion. Uh,

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Speaker 2: As I noted last episode, it's a little bit hard

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Speaker 2: to triangulate the price precise length of time that Lewis

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Speaker 2: was killing people, but the bulk of his murdering seems

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Speaker 2: to have occurred from around nineteen eighty six to nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty nine. These are the twilight years of the apartheid

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Speaker 2: regime and the anxious business owners in middle class whites

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Speaker 2: of East London saw Lewis again as a hero. He

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Speaker 2: is their own private batman, and that is how they

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Speaker 2: look at him. Most of the businesses that contracted with

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Speaker 2: his company had silent alarms. When someone broke in, Van

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Speaker 2: Sure would be alerted and he would rush to the

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Speaker 2: scene to surprise the intruder. He always showed up alone

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Speaker 2: in a private vehicle, no sirens, and as was his

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Speaker 2: wont he went barefoot. He later told a reporter it's quiet,

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Speaker 2: you don't have your shoes squeaking on tiles and stuff.

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Speaker 2: So again, his interest is not to stop robberies or

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Speaker 2: to arrest people. It is to sneak up on them

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Speaker 2: so that he can murder them, very, very brutally.

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Speaker 3: I just don't like the idea that he's not wearing shoes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's just extra creepy, right, It's like a

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Speaker 2: reverse diehard. Now, he claimed to not turn on lights

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Speaker 2: and that he usually avoided flashlights. He's inconsistent on that

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Speaker 2: last point, so I suspect he did use a flashlight

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Speaker 2: to at least try to shock his targets. But to

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Speaker 2: the press he would claim that his primary sense for

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Speaker 2: hunting was his sense of smell.

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Speaker 3: Qu wait, sense for what now? Hunting?

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Speaker 2: Hunting? Yes, that's how he describes this great great he's

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Speaker 2: just talking openly about when the press coming like, seems

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Speaker 2: like you're shooting a lot of people who's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I love hunting people. You know, I hunt by sense

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Speaker 2: of smell. If somebody breaks in, the adrenaline gives off

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Speaker 2: an odor and you can pick that up. Okay, I

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Speaker 2: don't know that. I think you can. But that's a

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Speaker 2: very unsettling thing to say. That's something a monster, says Lewis.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I guess you know, like gamblers, you have

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Speaker 3: a system, you have superstitions, you have these beliefs about

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Speaker 3: your craft.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and some people have better senses than others. So

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Speaker 2: I'm not gonna say, like, it's definitely true that like fear,

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Speaker 2: sweat is different, smells different. You can kind of tell

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Speaker 2: sometimes if.

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Speaker 3: Somebody you can't smell a guy in the back of

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Speaker 3: the CBS.

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Speaker 2: You're not go I don't think you're going to. But

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Speaker 2: maybe Lewis is the predator. You know, he is a predator.

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Speaker 3: He spent a long time with dogs, but he did

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Speaker 3: not develop any dog like.

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Speaker 2: Some of the dogs have taught me their skills. Yeah. Now.

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Speaker 2: The adrenalines with Van Schuur were mostly conducted at the

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Speaker 2: start of the nineties, before he was charged with any

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Speaker 2: crimes for his many murders. He was a subject of

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Speaker 2: amusement for a lot of reporters, and their stories helped

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Speaker 2: build him a legend and earn him the love of

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Speaker 2: many in the local white community. The vast majority of

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Speaker 2: his victims were very poor, the kind of people who

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Speaker 2: often broke into stores to steal food or cash, and

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Speaker 2: as a result, their deaths made very little impact in

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Speaker 2: the local papers. If they were mentioned, it usually wasn't

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Speaker 2: by name, robbers shot, breaking into pharmacy or whatever. White

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Speaker 2: business owners and middle class residents knew of Lewis, at

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Speaker 2: least by reputation, and overwhelmingly considered him a hero. Black

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Speaker 2: residents also knew him. Stories read in Zosha of a

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Speaker 2: bearded man nicknamed Whiskers who would stalk men through the

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Speaker 2: streets and make them disappear forever as journalists. Dominic Jones,

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Speaker 2: one of the first to report on Lewis, said Lewis

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Speaker 2: van Shore was basically going out and murdering people for sport.

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Speaker 2: Lewis himself would tell the BBC during an investigation decades later,

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Speaker 2: every night is a new adventure, if you want to

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Speaker 2: put it that way, I know, I don't.

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Speaker 3: I don't.

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Speaker 2: I don't know at all. What do you mean an adventure?

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Speaker 3: And this is going on for long enough that he's

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Speaker 3: becoming this sort of like real life Boogeyman in these

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Speaker 3: communities like they of course he is. And I guess

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Speaker 3: they don't know where he's going to be or which

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Speaker 3: alarms go to his phone.

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Speaker 2: No, and you probably because of how it's being reported,

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Speaker 2: some people are probably aware it's all this one guy,

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Speaker 2: but like a lot of locals, both whites and blacks

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Speaker 2: are probably think this is more a bunch of people

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Speaker 2: committing murders because of how many people he's shooting. You

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Speaker 2: wouldn't nactually would Why would you? All of these are

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Speaker 2: one guy. It's a lot for one guy, right. That's

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Speaker 2: very now. At the time, things had changed enough in

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Speaker 2: South Africa that Lewis had to claim he never went hunting,

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Speaker 2: quote with the intention of killing black people. He just

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Speaker 2: found stocking. He does call it hunting a lot, He

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Speaker 2: says he just found it exciting. And I do think

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Speaker 2: parts of this are true, although not in a way

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Speaker 2: that makes it better. Lewis fan sure to me, feels

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Speaker 2: like a guy who would have taken a job that

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Speaker 2: let him hunt and kill humans in any society where

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Speaker 2: that job existed. He's again definitely racist, but I think

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Speaker 2: that the killing was more the motivation than the racism.

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Speaker 2: The racism provides the opportunity and the legal cover to

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Speaker 2: do the killing, right, This is my take on it.

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Speaker 2: Lewis reported every murder to the local police, and when

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Speaker 2: he was criticized for being a serial killer, he would

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Speaker 2: defend himself by saying his actions were quote all within

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Speaker 2: the law. This was untrue in a strict textual sense,

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Speaker 2: but it was accurate in that the cops supported what

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Speaker 2: he was doing. As Lewis said, every officer and London

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Speaker 2: knew what was going on. All the police officers knew.

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Speaker 2: Not once did anybody say, hey, Louis, you're on the borderline,

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Speaker 2: or you should cool it or whatever. They all knew

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Speaker 2: what was happening, right.

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Speaker 3: So you're saying, like not people didn't know was all

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Speaker 3: one guy. But like whoever's processing the.

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Speaker 2: Cops, the cops definitely know. Yes, the cops are not

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Speaker 2: are fully aware because they also are showing up at

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Speaker 2: the scene every time he shoots someone, which is all

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Speaker 2: the time. He is always shooting people.

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Speaker 3: Is they never a conversation about, like, did you do

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Speaker 3: a crime?

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Speaker 2: I don't think there's an interest in having that conversation.

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Speaker 2: And obviously, as Lewis said, I don't think he's lying

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Speaker 2: about this. I think like he seems to be legitimately

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Speaker 2: frustrated because he does get in trouble eventually where he's like, look,

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Speaker 2: I talked to the cops. None of them said I

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Speaker 2: was like a borderline right. Nobody ever said to stop

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Speaker 2: shooting people?

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Speaker 3: Why are yeah? Like they should have told me sooner.

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Speaker 2: They needed to tell me the exact amount of people

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Speaker 2: I needed to shoot. Now, obviously we shouldn't. I don't

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Speaker 2: necessarily think he's lying there, but we shouldn't take his

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Speaker 2: word for it. That said one of the local journalists.

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Speaker 3: They didn't stop him.

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Speaker 2: They didn't stop him. One of the local journalists who

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Speaker 2: put together a team to start looking into Lewis was

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Speaker 2: and this is another great South African name, Patrick Goodenough

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Speaker 2: literally just the words good enough stuff together. What was

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Speaker 2: going on in that country that that became a last

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Speaker 2: name for you people? Huh right, yeah, good enough. Oh,

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Speaker 2: because you just know every year a journalism school, whenever

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Speaker 2: he turns into an assignment, you know his teachers are

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Speaker 2: making fun of that name one way or the other.

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Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, this is good enough, not good enough,

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Speaker 2: not good enough. Sorry, Patrick, I'm sure you had a

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Speaker 2: tough road to hoe. You seem to have turned into

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Speaker 2: a fine man, because he's going to be one of

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Speaker 2: the heroes of this story. Good enough, he said of

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Speaker 2: the police in East London. There's the support for him

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Speaker 2: was massive. He would not have been able to get

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Speaker 2: away with the fraction of what he got away with

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Speaker 2: without it. Now, another of the journalists who dug into

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Speaker 2: this story back before it was a story was Isad Jacobson,

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Speaker 2: who I quoted last episode. Here's the BBC discussing her

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Speaker 2: very early efforts to uncover what was going on. In

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Speaker 2: the police records held in public archives, Miss Jacobson found

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Speaker 2: instances of killings where the officers had been present at

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Speaker 2: the time of the shootings at no point that they

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Speaker 2: appear to question Van Schure as a suspect. In many instances,

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Speaker 2: the police failed to take photos of the deceased at

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Speaker 2: the scenes of the shooting. And failed to collect key

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Speaker 2: forensic evidence, such as bullet casings. Van Shure was often

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Speaker 2: the only witness to his shootings, so this evidence could

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Speaker 2: have been crucial for determining what had actually happened. In

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Speaker 2: each case, these were cover ups. He had the backing

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Speaker 2: from police officer of from police officers from junior rank

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Speaker 2: and senior rank. Said mister goodenough, they wouldn't investigate. They'd

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Speaker 2: sit down with him and have a cigarette while chatting

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Speaker 2: with bodies lying nearby. Yeah, that's not good, pretty gross.

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Speaker 2: I think I'm going.

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Speaker 3: To guess the cops are doing some of this too.

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Speaker 3: He was doing it when he was a cop, likehooting,

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Speaker 3: murdering people too. It's just happening.

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Speaker 2: It's just understood. He is probably talking shop with a

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Speaker 2: guy who also just killed someone a lot of the time, right.

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Speaker 3: So it's not like they are too stupid to realize

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Speaker 3: he's shot all the back on the ground.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how much all of the local like

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Speaker 2: white business owners, are aware of the specifics of what

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Speaker 2: Lewis is doing, but the cops are. They don't, like,

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Speaker 2: they don't they don't give a shit, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: except for you know, a good number of journalists actually

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Speaker 2: do like there is a it takes a significant journalistic effort.

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Speaker 2: This is actually a case of a murderer who is

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Speaker 2: caught by the press and prosecuted.

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Speaker 3: And I guess once a hundred guys are missing.

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Speaker 2: That is funny you say that, family, because by nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty nine, Lewis has been involved in at least one

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Speaker 2: hundred shootings, probably a lot more. No, no, he is

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Speaker 2: at least one hundred shootings. And Lewis himself will say, like,

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Speaker 2: I have no idea how many people I shot. There

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Speaker 2: were way too many of them to keep track of,

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Speaker 2: so normally.

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Speaker 3: I would say I don't know how many people they've killed.

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Speaker 3: Is a very bad thing to say, but I think

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Speaker 3: once you get into a certain number, it's gonna be

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Speaker 3: bad regardless. Probably better that he doesn't know because he's

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Speaker 3: keeping meticulous records.

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Speaker 2: That's worse.

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Speaker 3: That's worse.

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Speaker 2: I talked to a drone pilot once who was told,

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Speaker 2: at like the end of his time of service by

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Speaker 2: his superior the number of people that had been killed

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Speaker 2: in drone strikes he participated in, and it was in

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Speaker 2: the thousands, And he was like, why didn't you tell me?

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Speaker 2: This is just ruined my life.

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Speaker 3: Like, there's no amount of therapy that can undo that moment.

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Speaker 2: You should know, right it actually it should be traumatic

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Speaker 2: to blow people up with a drone. It's better than

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Speaker 2: it's traumatic. Right.

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Speaker 3: It just seems like telling him was a rude thing

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Speaker 3: to do.

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Speaker 2: It is kind of a dick move from your boss though, right.

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Speaker 3: Okay, ay man, good job, jum.

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Speaker 2: Want to let you know you've been responsible for the

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Speaker 2: deaths of thousands. Yeah, Statistically about a third of them

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Speaker 2: were innocent, at least, maybe more like seventy percent based

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Speaker 2: on a lot of our analyzes. Anyway, have a good

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Speaker 2: time as a civilian.

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Speaker 3: We have the Mackenzie Intern figure out how many of

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Speaker 3: more kids?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh a bunch.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, by nineteen eighty nine, Lewis had been involved in

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Speaker 2: at least one hundred shootings. Now these numbers are not

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Speaker 2: available to anyone, right, They are all buried in a

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Speaker 2: police filing system that doesn't always name Lewis and was

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Speaker 2: designed to frustrate outside observers, like reporters from the East

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Speaker 2: London Daily Dispatch, where Patrick Goodenough worked. He'd gotten good enough.

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Speaker 2: There's people are gonna be like, no, it's in South

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Speaker 2: African we pronounce it Gowden, weef damn it? How do you?

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Speaker 2: How can you not know that?

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Speaker 3: But we're not doing that, You're mate, We're absolutely not

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Speaker 3: doing that.

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Speaker 2: I don't care disrespecting it on bur is Patrick good enough,

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Speaker 2: and by god he is.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 2: Patrick got onto the story when he interviewed one of

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Speaker 2: the men who had survived Lewis, a guy named Ciabanga Tom,

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Speaker 2: which is another excellent name.

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Speaker 1: Yeah seriously, Now.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately Seabanga Tom is a child when he is shot.

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Speaker 2: I think he's like fourteen something. That Patrick had also

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Speaker 2: interviewed Lewis, who had bragged the first time the number

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Speaker 2: comes out. Is that Patrick is just talking to this

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Speaker 2: guy who he started to think might be a serial

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Speaker 2: killer because cia Banda Tom says like, I wasn't trying

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Speaker 2: to run, he just kind of tried to execute me, right.

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Speaker 2: So Patrick comes across a couple other cases of shootings

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Speaker 2: this guy is involved and finds out like it seems

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Speaker 2: like there's a lot of bodies tied to this guy.

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Speaker 2: So he sits down with Lewis, thinking like, all right,

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Speaker 2: you know, this is going to be maybe one of

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Speaker 2: the tougher interviews of my life. I've got a man

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Speaker 2: here that I think is a serial murderer. You know,

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Speaker 2: he's probably doing some terrible things and getting away with it,

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Speaker 2: and I'm trying to bring him down. He's gonna know that.

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Speaker 2: You know, we're going to be playing this game of

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Speaker 2: cat and mouse, this real like Hannibal Lecter moment with

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Speaker 2: a murderer. And as soon as the interview starts, Lewis

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Speaker 2: is like, yeah, I shot more than like a hundred

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Speaker 2: people than the last couple of years. It's crazy how

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Speaker 2: many guys I'm shooting. Just very funny.

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Speaker 3: Oh the vibes in that room, Yeah, insane.

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Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, I reckon, I've shot like a hundred people.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, can't really count that high. Anyway, what's

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Speaker 2: this article about?

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Speaker 3: But that wasn't even part of the eneview. He's just

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Speaker 3: making small talk.

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Speaker 2: No, he just likes He just likes killing. He likes

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Speaker 2: talking about killing. He's just a big fan of it.

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Speaker 2: You will not be surprised to hear that. This convinced

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Speaker 2: Patrick he was onto a big story. Now. He had

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Speaker 2: nearly finished an article on the shooting, but unfortunately the

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Speaker 2: article was centered because the first survivor he's talked to

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Speaker 2: is Ciabanga, Tom right. So his article is centered on

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Speaker 2: Tom's experience because Tom also gives him an eyewitness account

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Speaker 2: of Lewis breaking the law right him execute, you know,

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Speaker 2: just shooting people. Right. The problem is that, like all

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Speaker 2: of Lewis's victims Ceabanga, Tom gets charged with breaking and entering,

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Speaker 2: and in South Africa they have this thing where if

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Speaker 2: someone gets charged, the case is now what they called

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Speaker 2: sub justice, which meant you're not allowed to report on

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Speaker 2: it until the accused gives a statement in court. Oh,

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Speaker 2: I can see why you would have a rule like this.

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Speaker 2: I can understand how, even theoretically, it can develop out

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Speaker 2: of good intentions. Right, you don't want yellow pressed, tabloid

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Speaker 2: journalism or whatever affecting how a court case goes, right,

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Speaker 2: So you want.

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Speaker 3: And a lot of countries have pretty strict laws about

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Speaker 3: how the pass is allowed to report on crime.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so I do understand why some of why this

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Speaker 2: may have come into place. But in the case like

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Speaker 2: you really see the weakness of that here because every

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Speaker 2: time Patrick gets close to being able to report on

379
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Speaker 2: Lewis actively shooting people, that person will get charged and

380
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Speaker 2: he can't publish the article. Right. So it's this kind

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Speaker 2: of maddening state of affairs for him. So furious, Patrick

382
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Speaker 2: decides that the story he has is not good enough

383
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Speaker 2: and he can contacts a local legal aid charity called

384
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Speaker 2: Black Sash to try to get Seabanga a lawyer. He

385
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Speaker 2: talked with their coordinator, Charlene Craig, about Lewis, who he'd interviewed,

386
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Speaker 2: and let her know, Hey, hey, there's this like white

387
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Speaker 2: former cop security guard who just told me he shot

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Speaker 2: one hundred people. You guys are like dealing with, you know,

389
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Speaker 2: legal justice issues in our town. Have you looked into

390
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,800
Speaker 2: this at all? And it turns out that Charlene had.

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Speaker 2: She hands him a copy of a statement that she

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Speaker 2: had taken a month earlier from a local man named Zumzie.

393
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Speaker 2: Quote and this is from the book The Color of Violence.

394
00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:25,840
Speaker 2: In it, he said he was on his way home

395
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Speaker 2: in October nineteen eighty eight after trying to get work

396
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Speaker 2: at a bakery when a man in a backie it's

397
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Speaker 2: a kind of vehicle asked him if he wanted a job.

398
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,040
Speaker 2: He said, He climbed into the vehicle and the two

399
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,640
Speaker 2: drove a short way to the Turnbull Bowling Club, where

400
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:39,840
Speaker 2: the man who said his name was Van Schure told

401
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:41,520
Speaker 2: him to wait outside the window on the left of

402
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,679
Speaker 2: the building. According to the statement, Van Shure then disappeared

403
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,320
Speaker 2: and returned holding a gun without warning. He shot Vzumzie

404
00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,560
Speaker 2: twice in the chest and in his left arm. And

405
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Speaker 2: it's from this statement that we get our most conclusive

406
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Speaker 2: answer to the over zealous racist security guard or serial

407
00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,919
Speaker 2: killer question, because that is not a story of a

408
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,320
Speaker 2: random bigot. That is the story of a man who

409
00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,679
Speaker 2: is hunting and entrapping people and using the imperiod, Like

410
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,280
Speaker 2: that's a serial killer hunting people, right, And you know,

411
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,920
Speaker 2: maybe racism plays a big role obviously him getting away

412
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,480
Speaker 2: with it, but like you didn't need to do that,

413
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,879
Speaker 2: that's I mean, he didn't need to. He wanted he

414
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,400
Speaker 2: wanted to shoot this man. He entrapped the man by

415
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,680
Speaker 2: telling him I have a job for you, and then

416
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Speaker 2: he shot him and then he threw his body on

417
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Speaker 2: a crime scene.

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Speaker 3: But even hiss like sort of fake justified shootings that

419
00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,080
Speaker 3: he's doing once a week at work, Like is that

420
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 3: not enough?

421
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,000
Speaker 2: Well? These are these are what a lot of those

422
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,480
Speaker 2: shootings are? Those shootings always get marked down as he

423
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,679
Speaker 2: was responding to a break in what's actually happening a

424
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,680
Speaker 2: lot of the time is he is hunting random black

425
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Speaker 2: men in the street and throwing their bodies into a

426
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,639
Speaker 2: crime scene, right right, Yeah, Like he will fake a

427
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,680
Speaker 2: break in. There will always be something stolen, but it's

428
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,159
Speaker 2: usually a low value item.

429
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Speaker 3: Right, He's also just stealing, he is.

430
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Speaker 2: I'm sure there's some of this is him responding to

431
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 2: be at ease, but most of this is him fucking

432
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Speaker 2: hunting people and faking it.

433
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,639
Speaker 3: Well, that's it's worse.

434
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:14,040
Speaker 2: It's much. I don't Yeah, it's they're both bad. But yeah,

435
00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,960
Speaker 2: I think there's a good I think this is the

436
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,800
Speaker 2: worst version of this story is the one that happened.

437
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:20,640
Speaker 2: I'll say that.

438
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,919
Speaker 3: So he really is just a wragular old serial killer,

439
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,080
Speaker 3: but existing within a system that allowed him to be

440
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 3: yes that way, yes, and congratulated him from behaving that way.

441
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,680
Speaker 2: Yes, Yes, I think that is the most accurate way

442
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,479
Speaker 2: I can I can describe this.

443
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,040
Speaker 3: I don't feel good, Robert, it's neither too.

444
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:44,200
Speaker 2: I But it's time for ads, so that'll be nice.

445
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:46,200
Speaker 3: That will soothe my soul.

446
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, our spirits will be lifted immediately.

447
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:59,080
Speaker 2: And we're back, oh man, having a great time. So

448
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 2: this guy Mazumzi was like all the others charged with

449
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 2: breaking and entering, so his case could not be reported on. Right.

450
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 2: So again our boy good Enough keeps getting these really

451
00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,600
Speaker 2: important stories and then as he writes it up and

452
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,720
Speaker 2: is ready to hand it to an editor, gets the

453
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 2: notice that like, oh, this guy's been charged. Can't say

454
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,880
Speaker 2: shit now, you know, got a wait. So the good

455
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 2: news is that Shyleen and her colleagues are now on

456
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 2: the case as well, and as a legal age charity,

457
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,840
Speaker 2: they have none of the same restrictions as the press.

458
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 2: They have collected at this point three other identical accounts

459
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,560
Speaker 2: nearly from men who had been hunted, shot and survived. Right,

460
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,120
Speaker 2: So this is four cases Shyleen brings to him of like, yeah,

461
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,199
Speaker 2: these guys all said that he literally just grabbed them

462
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:42,200
Speaker 2: off the street. Right.

463
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 3: That's a strong pattern at this point.

464
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,000
Speaker 2: That's a pattern. That's that's a pretty good pattern. I

465
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 2: always say, I figure.

466
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,159
Speaker 3: A lot of them don't live. So if you have

467
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 3: four guys who lived, yeah, does a lot.

468
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:54,640
Speaker 2: There's a lot of And also one of the things

469
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 2: that starts to come out is there's a lot of

470
00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 2: families asking, like my son or my husband just disappeared,

471
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 2: where are they? And in a lot of cases, the

472
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 2: police are just throwing these dead people into unmarked graves

473
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 2: and never telling anyone. So again, we have no idea

474
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 2: how many people he actually killed. You know, some of

475
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 2: these people do find out, like that their son was

476
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,640
Speaker 2: thrown into an unmarked grave, but the cops are working

477
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 2: to cover up a serial killer's murders.

478
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 3: Can I ask you a stupid question that's also surely abhorrent? Yeah,

479
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,639
Speaker 3: why does so many of them live?

480
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,399
Speaker 2: Well, it's because it's a handgun. So this is so

481
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 2: there's gun stuff. A lot of people don't know handguns

482
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 2: are handguns and rifles or rifles. Right. A handgun is

483
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 2: a terrible weapon to kill someone with. It's just the

484
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,959
Speaker 2: most convenient, right, It's easy to have one on you.

485
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 2: They are not very powerful. It is extremely common for

486
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 2: people to be shot. I have read of cases. There's

487
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 2: a one particular case of a couple of bank robbers

488
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,360
Speaker 2: that the FBI ambushed and the FBI shot one man

489
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 2: fifty times and the other like forty seven times, and

490
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 2: both men not just lived, but were walked off the

491
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 2: scene like it is. It's wild how many bullets people

492
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 2: can take if their handgun bullets and survive rifles are

493
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,400
Speaker 2: a bit of a different case, you know, not that

494
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 2: people don't survive shots from rifles, but it is a

495
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:21,959
Speaker 2: very different kind of injury you're looking at.

496
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 3: I have forty paper cuts on my m has to

497
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,920
Speaker 3: be put on a stretcher, But forty bullet holes it's

498
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 3: a lot.

499
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 2: It's a lot. I mean you also have to note that,

500
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 2: like the nine millimeter of the day is a weaker

501
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,479
Speaker 2: round than the same bullet now because there have been

502
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 2: advances in ballistics and like just how we make bullets, right.

503
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,479
Speaker 3: I feel like if he's that interested in killing, like,

504
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 3: is it just the I think these guys are creevously injured. No,

505
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 3: I just feel like, is it the activity that he

506
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,719
Speaker 3: is interested in? And it doesn't mean yeah, master how

507
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 3: it ends.

508
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 2: I think he's trying to kill them, But I also

509
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 2: think he's probably not. Like checking for a pulse A

510
00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 2: lot of times it's hard to it's not actually, if

511
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 2: you've ever tried to the pulse of an injury, it's

512
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 2: like not always easy. He's not smart. I don't credit

513
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 2: him with being a great planner. I think he's just

514
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,719
Speaker 2: showing guys they lose consciousness because they've been shot repeatedly,

515
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 2: and some of them wake up, some of them don't,

516
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 2: you know, that's kind of the deal. So one of

517
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 2: the Heidi, the person who wrote that book, makes a

518
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 2: big deal about the fact that he used hollow points

519
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 2: and how this is like evidence of his murderous intent.

520
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 2: I actually disagree with that. Hollow points are just kind

521
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 2: of like it's what everyone who carries a handgun in

522
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 2: a city is going like anywhere, is going to use

523
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 2: because they they are better at stopping people, but they

524
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,200
Speaker 2: also penetrate less. So if you are someone like a

525
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 2: copper security guard and you think you might be shooting

526
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 2: at someone in an urban environment, you want a bullet

527
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 2: that is less likely to go through them and then

528
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 2: hit someone else. Right, Like, it's just whatever damage the

529
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 2: merchandise or damage the merchandise, but anyway, whatever, it doesn't

530
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 2: really matter. So sha Lead and her colleagues collect like

531
00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 2: four accounts of guys who have been hunted and shot

532
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 2: and survived, and they reach out to illegal late aid

533
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 2: lawyer Dave Pittman, who suggests getting victim statements so that

534
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 2: they can file for criminal charges. And I'm going to

535
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 2: quote next from Heidi Hollands, The Color of murder and

536
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 2: this is her talking to Pittman. I drove to East London,

537
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 2: where I was joined by Charlene Craig, recalls Pittman, accompanied

538
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 2: by a a relative of Siabongo. We went directly to

539
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 2: Frarie Hospital where we found the victim with a bullet

540
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 2: wound running from his abdomen clear through his back. A

541
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 2: telling piece of evidence collected from the custody of the

542
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 2: hospital was the clothing he had been wearing when he

543
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,120
Speaker 2: was shot, notably a synthetic fiber tracksuit. The tracksuit top

544
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: had a gaping hole in front, with indications that the

545
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 2: fiber had been burned in the vicinity of the hole,

546
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 2: which would prove Siabonga's allegation that he had been shot

547
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 2: at point blank range. Armed with ciabonga statement and his

548
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 2: clothes in the plastic bag, we drove jauntily to the

549
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 2: Fleet Street police station. I don't know why we needed

550
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 2: to know jauntily that you drove having a good time,

551
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 2: but he Heidi knows. These kinds of details are important

552
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 2: to really make a story come alive. Do them?

553
00:25:59,640 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 3: There?

554
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 2: Yeah? Now, No sooner had they taken a statement from

555
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 2: Siaboga than there was another shooting in East London police

556
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 2: noted a security guard had been involved, but refused to

557
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 2: name him. Obviously, at this point everyone involved in this case,

558
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 2: the journalists in Black Sash are like, well, it was

559
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 2: must have been Lewis right, Probably was the guy who

560
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 2: shoots someone every day. It's the guy who only shoots people.

561
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 3: It's the human hunter.

562
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, the victim in this shooting was Muntuzima Titi

563
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 2: twenty four, a night watchman, so a security guard himself,

564
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 2: who had been walking home from a late shift when

565
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 2: a white stranger ran up to him in the night,

566
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 2: shot him and tossed him in the back of his car.

567
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 2: When he woke up in the hospital, police charged him

568
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 2: with breaking an enter ring. Such a nightmare. It sucks,

569
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 2: just a horrible, horrible situation. Also, you're literally a security guard.

570
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 3: How much blood is in this man's car. He's routinely

571
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 3: putting shot like shooting victim.

572
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,719
Speaker 2: I think he's got I think he's got like a

573
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 2: flatbed and he's just kind of throwing him in there

574
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: and then hosing it off.

575
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 3: Just hosing it out the way I do it.

576
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: You know, it's the way I've done it. I mean,

577
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 2: would would. I haven't killed anyone in my truck, Molly,

578
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 2: what do you drive?

579
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 3: I'm not giving out that kind of personal information to

580
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 3: your hordes of deranged fans, right.

581
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 2: One of them could be like this guy.

582
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, you were just complaining about people texting you in

583
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: sort of messaging on the signal and you're like, hey, Molly,

584
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: what kind of car do you drive?

585
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 2: Kind of car do you drive? I just want to know.

586
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 3: My last car got total while I was covering. It

587
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 3: was a post chase six like you know, free the

588
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 3: Insurrection Boys rally. My car got totaled, was parked, you know,

589
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 3: there's a police chase in DC and oh man, and

590
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 3: they totaled my parked car anyway, but before that, So

591
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 3: now I have a car that has no giant key

592
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 3: scrapes on it, Robert, and that is very precious to me,

593
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 3: because my last car got keyed up by some sort

594
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 3: of muk and fed weirdodfather's grave. Oh no, I'm not

595
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 3: telling you why I.

596
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 2: Drive very specific, very specific. I have a car with

597
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 2: no blood stains in the bed.

598
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 3: You know, I don't think there's I don't think there's

599
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 3: any blood in my car.

600
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 2: So actually there's kind of a lot of blood in

601
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: the back und anyway, whatever with roadkill, it's fine. So

602
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 2: by this way, you put it in the car because

603
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 2: it's a truck. Else you put your roadkill.

604
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 3: Is this because you read cab you read too, and

605
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,199
Speaker 3: now you're interested. Now you're in.

606
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,719
Speaker 2: I like fresh roadkill, Molly. I would not feed it

607
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: to a hawk. I feed it to people.

608
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 3: All right, we move on.

609
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: Anyway, you've made a little weird now, Patrick, So there's

610
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: a lot of blood in the car.

611
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 2: Okay, there's a lot of probably a lot of blood

612
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: in his car.

613
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 3: But there's a lot of normal reasons why there might be.

614
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, of course. Well, no, he's he's just abducting

615
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:55,280
Speaker 2: security guards.

616
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 3: It's just a serial killer.

617
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's just a serial kill. By this point, Patrick

618
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 2: Goodenough had tied Lewis to five fatal shootings, which was

619
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 2: good but not good enough. He had also found seven

620
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,959
Speaker 2: wounded victims. In June of nineteen eighty nine, Pittman had

621
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 2: enough to file attempted murder in civil damages against Lewis.

622
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 2: This gave good enough public victim damage statements that he

623
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 2: could use in his reporting. Right at this point, the

624
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: victims have put out a public damage statement, so he

625
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 2: can like theoretically write an article.

626
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 3: So they're filing a civil suit, so they're not.

627
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's filing criminal charges and a civil suit. His

628
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,719
Speaker 2: attitude is, we should charge this guy with murder and

629
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 2: like with everything we can, we need to get him

630
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: off the street. Right, That's what Pittman is trying to do, right.

631
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,479
Speaker 2: He wants to stop the guy, this guy from being

632
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 2: able to shoot people. To figure it out, to agree

633
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 2: to this, well, he files the charges.

634
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 3: Right, they just have a different system because you can't

635
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 3: do that here.

636
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I don't know the South African apartheid era,

637
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 2: I don't know how that worked, right, I'm just reading

638
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: what the reporting on it said. Right, But Pittman has

639
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: these public victim damage statements, which now theoretically Patrick Goodenough

640
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 2: can report on. But when he gets an article together

641
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 2: his editor they have an editorial meeting that Goodenough isn't

642
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: allowed in. But it's like very frantic. He can see

643
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 2: people arguing and yelling, and then his editor says, no,

644
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 2: you can't publish anything. So Patrick puts together a stripped

645
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 2: down version of the article, one in which he does

646
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 2: not name any names but just notes that charges have

647
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 2: been brought against a security guard who was shooting a

648
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 2: lot of local people. This too is refused from publication.

649
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 2: During a phone call with Lewis, the killer boasted to

650
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 2: the journalist, I'm in full production, full production, basically, I'm

651
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: still working. Nothing about this has hurt me yet, okay.

652
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 2: And so as all of this kind of like keeps

653
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 2: winding its way through the courts, there's very little interest

654
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: in the story. When a week later, Van Schure attends

655
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 2: an inquest for shooting the year before in June of

656
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight.

657
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 3: Now we're getting an inquest.

658
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: Yes, he has occasionally involved in inquests, and in this

659
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 2: particular shooting, he had arrived on scene to the site

660
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: of a Wimpy bar, which is a chain of restaurants

661
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: I think, and this one is by the beach, and

662
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: a thirteen year old and a fifteen year old have

663
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 2: broken into it searching for cash. Lewis had arrived and

664
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 2: both kids had fled, terrified from the bearded demon now

665
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 2: hunting them. Lewis caught the boys hiding in a bathroom.

666
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 2: Unable to run away. He opened fire, hitting hitting the

667
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 2: two kids seven times and killing one of them. I

668
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: think he kills the thirteen year old. This is what

669
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 2: really lights a fire under Patrick's ass because he's like,

670
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 2: this guy's murdered children, and he confirms he starts like

671
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 2: doing police. He goes physically on site and combs through

672
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 2: records of every police shooting for the last couple of years,

673
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 2: and he's able to confirm that Lewis has been on

674
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 2: the site of more than two hundred and seventy silent

675
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: alarm calls in recent years. That's a lot. He enlists

676
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 2: other colleagues and they start trolling through inquest records and

677
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 2: one by one they found more. They find more Lewis

678
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 2: van Schure killings. Zola Sotfia twenty seven had been killed

679
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 2: on November fifteenth, nineteen eighty seven. Sidwell Bomba Kobaka thirty seven,

680
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 2: gut shot in June of nineteen eighty seven, Kukuile Nexo

681
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: shot in the head and stomach. By the time he

682
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 2: was done on his first day, Patrick had confirmed twenty

683
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 2: two murders committed by Lewis van Schure. The cases all

684
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: had chilling similarities. At each break in a single low

685
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 2: value item had been removed. Van Schure was never questioned

686
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 2: in court, just asked to submit statements that he had

687
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: crafted to comply with the letter of the law. He

688
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 2: always asserted he'd shouted a warning and claimed that he

689
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 2: had fired in the direction of the suspects rather than

690
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 2: at them. This was thin stuff to defend a man

691
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 2: who had shot so many people, But South African judges

692
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 2: had the right to close an inquest if they concluded

693
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: there were no live witnesses who could provide added context,

694
00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 2: and since.

695
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 3: Lewis was usually great way to get out.

696
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 2: Ale, Yeah, to make sure there's no one else.

697
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 3: I mean, murder can never really be prosecuted as long

698
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 3: as you tell everybody who's there.

699
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 2: Well, we got all the context. The guy who did

700
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 2: the murder told us everything. So there's really nothing else

701
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 2: to gain by a trial, you know, or by a

702
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 2: court case.

703
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 3: Cool good system.

704
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 2: As it became clear one of the modern eras most

705
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 2: prolific serial killers lived in their town, the Black Sash

706
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 2: and good Enough's reporters were inundated suddenly with information. Heidi

707
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 2: Holland writes, a massive dossier began to grow against the man,

708
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 2: whose callous exploits read like a scene from a Dirty

709
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 2: Harry script. She really likes, comparing this to Dirty Harry.

710
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 2: I don't think it's very similar.

711
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 3: I ran to do it more than once or twice.

712
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 2: No, because also Dirty Harry specifically doesn't shoot people running away.

713
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: Oh well, I guess he probably died. I need to

714
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 2: rewatch that movie to say that.

715
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 3: I've never seen a movie.

716
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 2: Oh it's been a long time. Maybe he does shoot

717
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 2: some people in the back. I wouldn't be surprised if

718
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 2: he did. Anyway, I'm going to continue that quote. He

719
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 2: ran a cross roofs entered dark buildings alone and unafraid,

720
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: with his gun clasped in both hands, arrogantly admitting in

721
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 2: court documents that he fired seven to eight or even

722
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,879
Speaker 2: ten shots at a time. To everyone's surprise, Van Sure

723
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 2: himself contributed to the dragnet that was closing in around him.

724
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 2: After he heard on the radio that investigators believed he

725
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 2: had killed at least thirty four people, and around midnight

726
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 2: one night, three days after shooting his latest and last

727
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 2: victim dead, Lewis telephoned Dominic Jones with one of the reporters,

728
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 2: to set the record straight. Number thirty nine, Pal was

729
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 2: all he said. No, again, he's not a bright man.

730
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 3: That's something that happens on like I don't know, like

731
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 3: season seventeen police procedural.

732
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he just called jurors be like, shot another

733
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 2: guy to EH number thirty nine, feeling fine. Heidi describes

734
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 2: Lewis in this last period of impunity as the human

735
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 2: avatar of the apartheid government, exuding a calm, macho era

736
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 2: of competence and utterly certain violence meant to calm the

737
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 2: white populace and frighten Black South Africans away from one society.

738
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 2: He's a human wall. In the last months of his

739
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 2: long killing spree, Lewis shot a person almost every week,

740
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 2: and he killed one person almost every three weeks. But

741
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 2: then in November of nineteen eighty nine, the fever pitch

742
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 2: of media attention and protests prompted the local Attorney general

743
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 2: to order an inquiry. This was one of the most

744
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 2: significant criminal prosecutions of the late apartheid era, a sign

745
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,879
Speaker 2: that the consensus around this evil system had frayed irreparably.

746
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 2: In nineteen ninety Nelson Mandela was released from prison. Lewis

747
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,760
Speaker 2: and his security firm recognized that the wind had shifted,

748
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 2: and so did the local cops. In nineteen ninety one,

749
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 2: Lewis was finally arrested and charged The final credible tally

750
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,840
Speaker 2: of his kills was thirty nine dead and dozens more injured.

751
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 2: We will never have any clear idea of how many

752
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,359
Speaker 2: people this guy shot, but he kills at least thirty nine,

753
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,320
Speaker 2: which puts him up there. That is top one percent

754
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 2: of serial killers, right.

755
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 3: That is a lot, and at a kind of incredible pace.

756
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, like especially for three. Like if you hear a

757
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 2: serial clearcuse like twenty people in thirty years, you're like, wow,

758
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 2: that's one of the one of the big ones, you know.

759
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 2: But Lewis is just cranking him out. He's yeah, he is.

760
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 2: He's really a he's a workman like serial killer. You know,

761
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: he's just putting in the hours. Molly, It's all about

762
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:27,720
Speaker 2: putting in the hours. Anyway. Here's ads Sabrina. His daughter

763
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 2: was just twelve years old. And I'm not a serial killer.

764
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: Alarming that this man.

765
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 2: I just wanted to make I just wanted to make

766
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:33,760
Speaker 2: that clear.

767
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 3: I forgot about Sabrina. Yeah, it's alarming.

768
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: He has a daughter.

769
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 3: I do not like that part.

770
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 2: Oh you're not You're really not gonna like where her

771
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:42,839
Speaker 2: story goes? Oh good.

772
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 3: Although throughout all of this he has like little contact

773
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 3: with her right, and Sabrina has been with her mom.

774
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 2: He has very little contact with her. Yes, you would

775
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 2: think so. So. She's twelve years old in August of

776
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety one when she learns via radio broadcast her

777
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 2: father was accused of being one of the most prolific

778
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 2: murderers in the country. She described herself as feeling almost

779
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 2: dead because quote, I worshiped my father. I was very

780
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 2: very upset. Well, yeah, and obviously Louis had not been

781
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: super present, but also her mother and her brothers also

782
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: they seem like they were assholes. Like I think her

783
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,399
Speaker 2: whole family kind of sucked. Ass Sabrina's really the only

784
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 2: one who maybe doesn't.

785
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 3: Her mom didn't kill like eighty guys.

786
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 2: No, she she sure didn't. But she kind of likes

787
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 2: him more because her mom is the one that's around

788
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 2: all the time, and Louis shows up occasionally for like

789
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: special visits.

790
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 3: Right, sometimes we're twelve, like your mom grounds you is

791
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 3: a bit who sucks and like your dad who shows

792
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 3: up and takes you to the movies as cool.

793
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 2: Again, she doesn't want, uh, Sabrina to see her dad

794
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 2: at all, and sometimes he set up like secret visits,

795
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 2: like would she Sabrina staying with a friend. He'll come

796
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 2: over to sit and hang out with her. We really weird, grateful, weird. Yeah. Now,

797
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 2: Sabrina had against her again, against her mother's wishes, started

798
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 2: reconnecting with her dad in like the months or the

799
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:06,800
Speaker 2: year or so before he got arrested. She'd even started

800
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 2: dressing like him and going barefoot to mimic his fashion sense.

801
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 2: Her mother seems mostly to have wanted to try to

802
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 2: keep her away from the topic, but the case quickly

803
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 2: made her dad famous. She remembers the night that they

804
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 2: found out about this. A cop friend of the family

805
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 2: drops by and tells her her dad is a superhero. Oh,

806
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,359
Speaker 2: we are talking white people in apartheid South Africa. These

807
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 2: are not a lot of thin on the ground, nice.

808
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,879
Speaker 3: Folks, melodramatic, but I felt bile rise in my chest.

809
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 3: You said that.

810
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. But there is a massive level of popular

811
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 2: support for Lewis during his trial from the white populace

812
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 2: of East London. The BBC reports quote one entrepreneurial businessman

813
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 2: printed bumper stickers with pictures of the security guard. They said,

814
00:38:52,719 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 2: I love Lewis next to a heart full of bullet holes.

815
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 3: The second half of that sentence was so much worse.

816
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:11,240
Speaker 2: There's like sometimes there's society. I'm gonna get in trouble.

817
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 2: Since the trial occurred in the dying days of the

818
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 2: apartheid regime, the justice system still favored a man like Lewis.

819
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: He was ultimately charged with thirty nine murders, but only

820
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 2: convicted of seven. The other thirty two killings were listed

821
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,240
Speaker 2: as justifiable homicides. Yeah, he should have been seven should

822
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 2: be enough though, to put you away forever, right, like seven.

823
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 3: Murders, it is right.

824
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 2: No, that should be a long sentence. We're not gonna

825
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,439
Speaker 2: get one. Lewis was convicted. He was sentenced of something

826
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 2: like ninety years, but he was allowed to serve them

827
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 2: all concurrently, which means he was guaranteed pretty much guaranteed

828
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 2: less than twenty years behind bars with good behavior. And

829
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 2: he is a great prisoner. All the guards loved him,

830
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 2: loved him, super popular with the white prison guards. Relatives

831
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 2: of his victims were furious, and the case made it

832
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: clear how much work the police had put into keeping

833
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 2: Lewis free. The dead that good enough were able to

834
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 2: uncover was just a fraction of the total, which we

835
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 2: will never know. Many black families in East London never

836
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 2: recovered the bodies of their family members. Marlene Muhumbi's brother

837
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 2: Edward was killed by Van Schuan nineteen eighty seven. His

838
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,720
Speaker 2: body was thrown into an unmarked grave and the family

839
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 2: was left unnotified. For Sabrina, her father's disgrace was a constant,

840
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 2: confusing through line in her adolescence. In high school, she

841
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 2: read an article about her dad and realized how little

842
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 2: she understood him. She decided to She had a school

843
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 2: project to do an article, to write about an evil

844
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 2: man and what made them evil. And she's like, well,

845
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,879
Speaker 2: I'll write an article about my dad. And she gets

846
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 2: a bunch of news clippings from the librarian about her father.

847
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 2: But she decides not to write the piece because as

848
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 2: she starts writing, and she can't not write defensively about

849
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 2: her father, and she notes, most of my friends were

850
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 2: blacks and colors by then, and I thought it would

851
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 2: look like I was praising him. So she writes about

852
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: Hitler instead. Oh, good, my dad with Hitler. Yeah, it's

853
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 2: a lot easier to just write about Hitler. You're doing

854
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 2: You're doing great hunting.

855
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 3: Some point, this eighth gree English teacher should have said.

856
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 3: You know what, I'm going to give you an A

857
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 3: and I'm going to send you to the guidance count is.

858
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 2: Going to give you an A here. You don't have

859
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:22,919
Speaker 2: to write an article about your dad.

860
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 3: You don't have to do that.

861
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:29,720
Speaker 2: I'm very sorry that, you know, who never writes articles

862
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 2: about their fathers? Sponsors of this podcast?

863
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,280
Speaker 1: You know, to do another adds Jesus.

864
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 2: Sometimes I just in the zone, so if I just.

865
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:41,760
Speaker 3: Can't, I just love products and services.

866
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 2: I just can't stop plugging.

867
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 1: The shell for capitalism.

868
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 3: I just love, you know so much.

869
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: Sometimes when I go to bed, every time, when I

870
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 2: go to bed, the only thing with me is Chumba casino.

871
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's it's my lover, my friend, my comfort.

872
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 3: But I heard Toyotas have amazing sell value.

873
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 2: Uh wait, is that is Toyota doing ads? Because if

874
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 2: that's the case, what are we doing here, Sophie, Get

875
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:09,919
Speaker 2: me on the horn with the Toyota guys. I want

876
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 2: to I want to tell the when to bring the

877
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 2: highlux to the US. You know, do we have juice

878
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:14,919
Speaker 2: with Toyota? Now? Do we have some.

879
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 1: Suggest you to the ad people for Toyota?

880
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 2: That's never going to happen.

881
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 3: Your show.

882
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 2: Well, that's great.

883
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 3: Every mom.

884
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:28,280
Speaker 2: Roberts.

885
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,280
Speaker 1: Some of them love to do an ad for Toyota

886
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 1: or to Mobile, and they're like great, good to know.

887
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,399
Speaker 2: The problem is that Toyota people don't want the kinds

888
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 2: of ads that I would do, which is the kinds

889
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 2: of ads that will sell toyotas right, because there's no

890
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 2: there's no car that has been used as successfully in

891
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 2: as many insurgent conflicts and outright conventional wars in the

892
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 2: world as the Toyota high Lux. You know, Toyota reliability

893
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 2: is what you want to put one need.

894
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 3: An ad plug, get back to the screw. I'm surprised

895
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:02,960
Speaker 3: I didn't have a high loox in Twisters.

896
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 2: Oh, you're gonna ship a Trindo paid by Dodge.

897
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 3: But don't you need a high Lux. Don't you need

898
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,240
Speaker 3: to make a technical to fight a tornado?

899
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 2: No. Here's what's why I think it's realistic that they

900
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 2: were all Rams and Twister because the Dodge Ram is

901
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 2: the official truck of people with seventeen duys, and every

902
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,919
Speaker 2: character in Twisters has numerous duys like it is. These

903
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,399
Speaker 2: guys are Oklahoma storm chasers. Not a one of them

904
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 2: has ever gotten behind the wheel sober, and that is

905
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,840
Speaker 2: appreciate for a dodge ram. Yeah, it's not safe to

906
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 2: drive a dodge ram sober. You know you'll flip it.

907
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 2: So back to the story, Yeah, of course. Sabrina insists

908
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 2: that her mother and most of the rest of her

909
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 2: close family were very racist, and I don't think she

910
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 2: has to go to extreme measures to convince me of this.

911
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 2: Sounds true to have turned out differently because some of

912
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 2: her earliest memories were of the maid that her wealthy

913
00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,959
Speaker 2: mother hired to raise her. The maid was a black woman,

914
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 2: and Sabrina often called her mom and she's like, well,

915
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 2: I grew up with this black lady basically raising me

916
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: because my mom was busy all the time, and it

917
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 2: just became very aware of how racist everyone in my

918
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 2: family was. As a teenager, she becomes pregnant and it

919
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 2: is with a child that is going to be mixed race,

920
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 2: which is a real big deal in South Africa at

921
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:22,880
Speaker 2: the time, especially.

922
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 3: Your dad as the racism murderer.

923
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 2: Well, here's the thing. Her mom is furious. She claims

924
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 2: that her dad, who is behind bars at this point,

925
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 2: like calls her mom and is like be nicer to her.

926
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,919
Speaker 2: About this. She says her dad actually was always very

927
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 2: supportive of her having a mixed race baby.

928
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 3: Okay once again, and once again misjudged the killer.

929
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 2: He's not bad about this. Her mom is, apparently though. Robert.

930
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 2: She claims that a black friend of hers was the

931
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 2: only person who listened to her and didn't judge her

932
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 2: and like helped her decide, you know, to keep the kid,

933
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,359
Speaker 2: which she does now. Over time, her mother's racism began

934
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 2: to grape more and more on her. Although it may

935
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 2: have just been how controlling Beverly was, Sabrina was kind

936
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 2: of the black sheep of the family. Her mother is

937
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 2: this rich wlcoholic. Her half brothers take over a security

938
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 2: firm that her mother started, and they give.

939
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 3: She shouldn't be allowed.

940
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 2: This family should be doing security.

941
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 3: I know they're not guilty of this, They're not involved.

942
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 3: I just should do it.

943
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 2: She claims. They brag about being affiliated with Lewis before

944
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 2: he gets convicted, So I think that's saying ass. Yeah. Now, Sabrina,

945
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:34,720
Speaker 2: you know, again kind of the black sheep, and claims

946
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 2: she was basically a prisoner in her mother's home. Eventually,

947
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:39,879
Speaker 2: she reached out to the father of her child, who

948
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 2: introduced her to a man named Gino, who promised that

949
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,280
Speaker 2: he had a solution to her issues. Murder.

950
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:45,919
Speaker 3: Is it a gun?

951
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 2: No, it's a much more brutal murder than that. Now

952
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 2: there are two versions of this story, maybe both have

953
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: some truth. One is that Sabrina wanted to stage a

954
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 2: murder that looked random, like a robbery gone wrong, so

955
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 2: she could take her inheritance and be free. The other

956
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 2: is that she was just so disgusted by her mom's

957
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 2: racism that she felt her mother had to die. I

958
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 2: don't find that last one entirely credible. It's poetic, Yeah,

959
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:15,240
Speaker 2: maybe maybe.

960
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,720
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure that's maybe something that she tells

961
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 3: herself as part of this justification is working up to it,

962
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 3: but it's mostly because like, your mom's being a bitch.

963
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:24,760
Speaker 2: Your mom's kind of a bitch, and you want her money,

964
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 2: right probably? Probably? Yeah, And it's weird. I also think

965
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 2: maybe she's not super well because there's interviews where she claims, like,

966
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 2: on the last day of her mom's life, she wanted

967
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 2: to give her a nice goodbye and tell her she

968
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 2: loved her and thank her. Down gets you're having a

969
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 2: man slash her throat. What it's going on. You her

970
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 2: do her.

971
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:52,800
Speaker 3: Favorite park one last time.

972
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 2: You want to go on a walk, mom, don't mind

973
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 2: the guy looming in the corner. Yeah, it's anyway. She

974
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 2: also claimed that Gino threatened to kill her and her

975
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 2: brother if they didn't do the killing after a while.

976
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 2: And anyway, I don't know a lot of shady stuff here.

977
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 2: I don't know how much I believe of these claims.

978
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 2: But Sabrina did have her mother murdered. She hired a

979
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 2: man to slit her throat and then came upon the

980
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,879
Speaker 2: body and called the authorities. The whole thing was found

981
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 2: out almost immediately. Sabrina was sent to trial, where she

982
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 2: was not consistent, claiming at times that her mother had

983
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 2: loved her mixed race granddaughter and apologizing for what had happened. Still,

984
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 2: she also became something of a rallying point from any

985
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 2: of the Black East Londoners who'd spent years terrified of

986
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 2: her father from the BBC. At her trial in June

987
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 2: two thousand and two, Sabrina's admirers, the same South Africans

988
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 2: we'd lived in fear of her father, crowded into the

989
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 2: public gallery to commend her for striking a blow against

990
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 2: racism by murdering her mother. Her lawyer, a black man,

991
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 2: compared Sabrina's need to free herself from her mother's oppression

992
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 2: to the plight of South Africa's freedom fighters under a

993
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 2: part which I don't I don't even really know what

994
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 2: to say about that.

995
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 3: There's a lot going on, just like a lot of

996
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 3: psychology going on here.

997
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 2: There's a lot going on here. You're really feeling that

998
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,799
Speaker 2: rubber band effect of trauma from the apartheid years in

999
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 2: this case.

1000
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 3: Has she had the baby or is she just like.

1001
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 2: Very she has. I think she's had the kid by

1002
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 2: this point. Because she's separate, she misses out on the

1003
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 2: kid's childhood, you know, but maybe I don't know.

1004
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 3: I just can't imagine a more like it's a visible symbol,

1005
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 3: right that, like this this man who was using apartheid

1006
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 3: to murder she has this mixed race child.

1007
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 1: And then he was like a chill grandpa. Yeah, he

1008
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: has kind of a chill great, well not quite serial

1009
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 1: killer grandpa.

1010
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, killa grandpa. It's just a lot going on for

1011
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 3: port Sabrina. I just I don't know that I falter

1012
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 3: for it.

1013
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 2: No, No, I don't. I can't really blame her too much, Louis,

1014
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:55,839
Speaker 2: and they didn't.

1015
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 3: They didn't have like forensic miles back then, so she

1016
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 3: didn't know that murder for hire never never said it

1017
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:02,280
Speaker 3: never works.

1018
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 2: As much as we love hitmen and movies, no one

1019
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 2: has ever successfully gotten paid for a murder. It just

1020
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,839
Speaker 2: doesn't happen. The only people involved in that industry are

1021
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 2: FBI agents and the mentally unsound. That's that's just it.

1022
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 2: That's the whole business. Now. Lewis publicly because there's a

1023
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 2: lot of articles interview him when his daughter goes to trial.

1024
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 2: It's a it's a huge famous trial, and Lewis is

1025
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,879
Speaker 2: very publicly accepting of his granddaughter in Sabrina. I think

1026
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 2: for self serving reasons. For one thing, he's about to

1027
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 2: go up for parole, right, and so he wants wants

1028
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 2: to make it clear I'm not a racist. You know,

1029
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:45,760
Speaker 2: I shot up a lack, but I'm not a racist. Yeah.

1030
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 2: He also he kept being like, if you let me

1031
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 2: out early, I'll be able to raise my granddaughter. Well,

1032
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 2: my daughters, you should be allowed. You should be raising

1033
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:56,840
Speaker 2: a kid. What are you talking about?

1034
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 3: A judge to write up something special that says you.

1035
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 2: Can't do that you are not allowed to be anywhere

1036
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 2: close to children. In fact, when he was brought into

1037
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 2: court as a character witness to try to help mitigate

1038
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,880
Speaker 2: his daughter's guilt, he just he spent all of the

1039
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:12,720
Speaker 2: time defending himself and arguing for his parole.

1040
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 3: Look, I'm no a lawyer, This isn't legal advice, but

1041
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 3: if you ever need a character witness for a criminal proceeding, yeah,

1042
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 3: don't invite a serial killer.

1043
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 2: I would say, here's my legal advice, free legal advice

1044
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 2: for all you listeners out there. If you need a

1045
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,839
Speaker 2: character witness for a court case, pick a guy who

1046
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 2: shot less than one hundred people. You know, not to

1047
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 2: I guess, never pick a guy who shot anyone, but

1048
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 2: certainly not one hundred people. That's the number, you know.

1049
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess he does have sort of a

1050
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 3: unique lived experience when it comes to being a bad person,

1051
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:49,319
Speaker 3: So he does have some perspective on that.

1052
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 2: I will say, as a journalist, if I were just

1053
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,760
Speaker 2: looking for like critiques on shooting a guy in the dark,

1054
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 2: I would certainly call Lewis right. He seems to have

1055
00:50:57,760 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 2: been an expert in shooting people in the dark, and

1056
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,840
Speaker 2: the back probably would be great at that job. I

1057
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,600
Speaker 2: don't know. I don't think that's a job anyway. Him

1058
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,760
Speaker 2: being a character witness does not work. She goes to prison.

1059
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 2: She's going to be there for like thirteen years. Lewis

1060
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:16,839
Speaker 2: does twelve years, bars a little longer.

1061
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 3: Oh longer twelve.

1062
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 1: That math really adds up.

1063
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,359
Speaker 2: And when he gets out, he'd been telling reporters as

1064
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 2: he was trying to get early released, I've got to

1065
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 2: raise my granddaughter. I want to be there for her.

1066
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:31,840
Speaker 2: He immediately moves to a different city, and he doesn't

1067
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:34,439
Speaker 2: even tell his daughter, does not adopt the grand doctor

1068
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 2: because none of it, gets married right away, gets married

1069
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 2: again to human woman, yes, some lady, and then he

1070
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 2: gets a job on a farm funded by a state

1071
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 2: project to provide poor black people with land and support

1072
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 2: for operating agricultural businesses.

1073
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 3: I have to go.

1074
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 2: South Africa. Baby apart, I's gone, but we're still fucked

1075
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:01,879
Speaker 2: as hell.

1076
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 3: Oh so apart I'd ended while he was in jail.

1077
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 2: Yeah ninety four, Yeah.

1078
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 3: I lost. I lost track of our years. So he

1079
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:12,439
Speaker 3: comes out into a different world.

1080
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 2: Very different world. But he gets he gets right to

1081
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:19,359
Speaker 2: work scamming the government. So I will say I found

1082
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 2: an article some of the people who worked on that

1083
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 2: farm said he was a really good member of the team.

1084
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 2: He was very good at teaching people. He was good

1085
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 2: at scaring off thieves. But the person who makes all

1086
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 2: of these claims in this article, because he gets he

1087
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,960
Speaker 2: gets removed, he gets forced out when there's news stories

1088
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 2: that are like, it's kind of fucked up. This guy's

1089
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 2: getting money meant for poor black people to like encourage

1090
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 2: them to farm, after you know, he murdered all those folks.

1091
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:45,680
Speaker 2: The person who makes these claims that like, actually he

1092
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 2: was great and it's really bad that he had to

1093
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 2: leave is Patricia Nugumbalanga, who owned most of the farm,

1094
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 2: and intersperses her claims about how good Lewis was with

1095
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 2: anger at the fact that the government has not sent

1096
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:01,760
Speaker 2: any more subsidies. And nugom Belang also faces criminal charges

1097
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 2: herself from a local security guard who accused her of

1098
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 2: beating him badly after he broke into a building on

1099
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 2: the farm. So I don't know how to parse this.

1100
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 2: I don't know if Lewis was a good worker or not,

1101
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 2: or if there's something weird about this lady. But the

1102
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 2: fact that he is on this farm causes an outroar

1103
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 2: when it gets published right and he is forced from

1104
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 2: the property. From the For the rest of his life,

1105
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,720
Speaker 2: Lewis would be visited on occasion by reporters. He claimed

1106
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:27,800
Speaker 2: at the end of his days to be quote happy

1107
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,359
Speaker 2: and content and that ninety percent of the people who

1108
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 2: recognized him on the street supported what he'd done. But

1109
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 2: he also expressed disgust at the disgust at the new

1110
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 2: South Africa. Everything has changed people's attitudes, the service and shops.

1111
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 2: It's not the same, Yeah, I bet yeah. The only

1112
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:45,919
Speaker 2: good news I can give you is that by July

1113
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty four, father time caught up with the

1114
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 2: old bastard and did to him what the justice system wouldn't.

1115
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 2: A BBC reporter who visited him before his death noted

1116
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 2: that he had lost all his teeth and had both

1117
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 2: his legs amputated after a heart attack. Lewis fashion he

1118
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 2: accepted only the most brutal form of surgery for the BBC.

1119
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,800
Speaker 2: When the surgeon carried out this procedure, Van Sure requested

1120
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 2: an epidural instead of a general anesthetic so he could

1121
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 2: watch them remove his legs.

1122
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 3: He's such a sick.

1123
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 2: You know what shine on to you crazy diamond. It's

1124
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:24,359
Speaker 2: good to know them who you are. Right, it's an option, Yeah,

1125
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 2: I guess, I guess it's an option. Yes. It's very

1126
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:32,439
Speaker 2: funny because he immediately.

1127
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:37,319
Speaker 3: And hearing your fur saw through it's The.

1128
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 2: BBC article is super funny because it quotes him saying

1129
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 2: I was curious I saw them cutting they sawed through

1130
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 2: the bone, and speaking to the BBC World Service, Van

1131
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 2: Sure wanted to persuade us that he is not the

1132
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:53,319
Speaker 2: monster that people say I am. That's not gonna do it. Man,

1133
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 2: you didn't have to tell anyone that part of the story.

1134
00:54:58,560 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 3: Why didn't the doctor say no?

1135
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 1: Oh?

1136
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:04,919
Speaker 2: Man? Anyway, Lewis dies July twenty fifth, twenty twenty four.

1137
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 2: He just died due to complications from like a week ago. Yeah, yeah,

1138
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 2: very recently.

1139
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 3: He said, robituary and you said that's hell.

1140
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, who is this motherfucker? One relative of a victim

1141
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 2: told the BBC he got off easy, which I agree with. Sabrina,

1142
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 2: on the other hand, served out her time. She was

1143
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 2: noted by black inmates who served alongside her as being

1144
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 2: different from most of the other incarcerated whites. So it

1145
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:32,760
Speaker 2: does at least seem like the not being a racist

1146
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:36,359
Speaker 2: stuff was legitimate. Although she was sentenced to twenty five

1147
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:38,319
Speaker 2: years for the murder of her mom, like her dad,

1148
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 2: she was released after twelve years or so of good behavior,

1149
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 2: and I wish her the best. Good luck Sabrina and.

1150
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 3: What happened to her child, I don't know.

1151
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 2: Wow, I'm gonna guess honestly, with this family, no good

1152
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 2: news is good news, right, Yeah, just.

1153
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 3: Send them just foster care At this point, that's never

1154
00:55:57,520 --> 00:55:59,879
Speaker 3: a good option. It's never better than a family place.

1155
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 3: But I think maybe in this case.

1156
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:10,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, when your dad's yeah, the murder guy. Yeah, An,

1157
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 2: I didn't. I didn't like that that.

1158
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,239
Speaker 3: I mean, I thought I thought it was going to

1159
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,279
Speaker 3: be pretty bad when you told us that people were

1160
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 3: setting dogs heads on fire. Yeah, actually, long for more

1161
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 3: of that now.

1162
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 2: Every time when you're doing an apartheid South Africa story,

1163
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 2: it's basically always going to be the bleakest shit you've

1164
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 2: ever heard in your life. So that's good.

1165
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 3: Well, thanks, No good South African.

1166
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:41,920
Speaker 2: Molly, you got any Oh my gosh, what do I

1167
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:42,800
Speaker 2: have to plug?

1168
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 3: Oh? They're letting me make a podcast now, Robert?

1169
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 2: Oh good? Really wait, who's doing that?

1170
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:54,839
Speaker 3: Somebody? Very foolish weird little guys. By the time this

1171
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 3: comes out will be out one maybe two episodes, you'll

1172
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 3: be able to go and listen to them. You're gonna

1173
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:04,879
Speaker 3: love them. It's it's a it's s very uplifting kind

1174
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 3: of like this show just a lot of guys just

1175
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 3: doing normal stuff that's not upsetting. Yay uh it's me, Hi,

1176
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 3: I'm them, I'm the problem. It's me more horrible stories

1177
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:23,479
Speaker 3: for your ear holes. No, I really do think people

1178
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 3: are gonna like it.

1179
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, excellent, excellent. I do too, Mollie, I really do.

1180
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 1: It's very it's amazing, and it's just it's like a

1181
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 1: little creepy Crawley n bedtime horror story and you're in

1182
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 1: and it's amazing.

1183
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1184
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 3: Some people have asked, like always it like behind the

1185
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 3: Bastard where there's like a guest, and I think we

1186
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 3: ultimately decided that sort of a spooky bedtime story vibe

1187
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:50,520
Speaker 3: was a little bit better. So it's just me telling

1188
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 3: you a story about something terrible, yeah, but like a

1189
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 3: fun way funny.

1190
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 2: And I assume you will probably also tell them less

1191
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 2: about the film Twisters.

1192
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

1193
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 3: You know, I think by the time I record the

1194
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 3: second episode, I will have seen Twisters, so maybe I

1195
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 3: can work that inside.

1196
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 2: If you really want to be prepped for the podcasting game,

1197
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 2: like I am Molly, you got to watch Twisters and

1198
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 2: then you need to go back and watch the O. J.

1199
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 2: Simpson Show, where what Ross from Friends je all the time?

1200
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 2: It's so funny. Ross from Friends always watching, always a

1201
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 2: good time. That's great, is great. No Ross from Friends though,

1202
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 2: but that's probably for the best.

1203
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 1: I wish I had my own Gary from Beep in

1204
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:36,920
Speaker 1: my life, in the form of a dog who could talk.

1205
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 2: I almost said Ross from Friends doesn't have like Armando

1206
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 2: Iannucci vibes. But actually he could have been in the

1207
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 2: Death of Stalin. All right, I could have cast You

1208
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:48,200
Speaker 2: could have cast Ross from Friends with some like Fadings,

1209
00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 2: elderly Soviet deureaucrat. Yeah, he could, he could do it.

1210
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 2: He could do it.

1211
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 1: I think the range I think I would like to

1212
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 1: leave now. Okay, podcast is over you well, I Love

1213
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 1: you by Behind the Bastards is a production of cool

1214
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:10,120
Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit our

1215
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 1: website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

1216
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts,