1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 2: This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, 3 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 2: and speaker. 4 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: And this is Sarah Hartunger. I'm a mother of three, 5 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: a practicing physician and blogger. 6 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 2: On the side, we are two working parents who love 7 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 2: our careers and our families. 8 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Best of Both Worlds. 9 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 2: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 10 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 2: and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping 11 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 2: out long term career goals. We want you to get 12 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 2: the most out of life. 13 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to Best of Both Worlds. This is Laura. 14 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 3: This episode is airing in mid April of twenty twenty three. 15 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 3: We are doing the introduction a little differently today. Sarah 16 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 3: is just back from traveling and is on call this week. 17 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 3: But I have a veteran podcaster with me as our 18 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 3: guest today, so we are going to go ahead and 19 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 3: dive right into the interview. We are so excited to 20 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 3: welcome Gretchen Ruben. Gretchen Ruben is the author of the 21 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 3: brand new book Life in Five Senses. How Exploring the 22 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 3: Senses got Me out of my head and into the world. 23 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 3: She was a guest on Best of Both Worlds many 24 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 3: years ago and she joins us again today to talk 25 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 3: about the Five Senses plus happiness and habits and lots 26 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 3: of other listener questions that we had sent in for her. So, Gretchen, 27 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 3: welcome to the show. 28 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm so happy you'd be back. Thank you, Laura. 29 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: I always have so much fun getting to talk to you, 30 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: so this I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Yeah, 31 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 1: me too. 32 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,919 Speaker 3: It's always great fun to chat with you. Since we've 33 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 3: talked a few years ago, and I've no since many 34 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 3: of our listeners first came to you with the Happiness Project. 35 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 3: Lo these many years ago, you are still in New 36 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 3: York City, right, yep? Yeah, but your two daughters are 37 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 3: entirely different ages. 38 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: Yes, so I have one who's big and grown in 39 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: twenty four and then one who's the senior in high 40 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: school right now, so she's just about to take off. 41 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 3: Take off, oh my goodness, different stage of life entirely. 42 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: Well, we will get to that because we had some 43 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: listener questions and that as Wow, I've been thinking about 44 00:01:59,080 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: it a lot. 45 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 3: Sure, I'm sure. Well, a lot of your work has 46 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 3: focused on happiness and habits over the years. So how 47 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 3: do we get to the five senses from there. 48 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,399 Speaker 1: Well, it was this very shocking moment of my life, 49 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: though it was sort of a very ordinary moment. I 50 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: got pink eye. I do sort of get pink eye, 51 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: and it was pretty stubborn. So I ended up going 52 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: to the eye doctor and as I was walking out, 53 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: he said, well, you know, be sure to come back 54 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: for your regular checkup because, as you know, you're at 55 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: greater risk for losing your vision. And I was like, 56 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: wait what. I didn't know that what because he said 57 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: it very casually, like wear are your sunscreen? And he said, oh, yeah, 58 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: you're extremely near sighted, and that means you're more at 59 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: risk of getting a detached retina and if that happens, 60 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: it can affect your vision, so we would want to 61 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: catch it right away. And I have a friend who 62 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 1: had just lost some of his vision from a detached retna, 63 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: so that felt very real to me. And then, you know, 64 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: I walked out of the office and I was just 65 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: in shock, and you know, of course, in a well, 66 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: actually I knew that at any moment, like you can 67 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: lose anything, and I knew that, and I also knew 68 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: that I could have a rich, meaningful life even if 69 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: I did lose one or more of my senses. But 70 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,959 Speaker 1: it just hit me, you know, like I think, oh, 71 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: my sight is so precious to me. But like, on 72 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: my way over, I live in New York City, so 73 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: I walked to the eye doctor. I'm like, I didn't 74 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: notice a single thing on my way over. I'm taking 75 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: this all for granted. I'm not appreciating any of it. 76 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: And in that moment, it was like every knob in 77 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: my brain got jammed up to eleven and I could 78 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: see everything with crystal clarity, and I could hear every 79 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: sound on a separate track, and I could smell every 80 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: smell and very smell in New York City. The whole 81 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: way home. I just was experiencing the world in this 82 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: almost psychedelic clarity. And you know, as you said, I've 83 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: been studying happiness for a long time, but that walk 84 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: showed me this was the missing piece. I've been feeling 85 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: like there was something that I was missing, that there 86 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: was some peace that I was sort of groping toward 87 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: but I wasn't really understanding. And just the clarity and 88 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: transcendence of that moment showed me like I need to 89 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: connect with the world and other people and myself through 90 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: the five senses. That was sort of the concrete way 91 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 1: that I could really come into that direct contact that 92 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: I that I realized that I had been. 93 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 3: Missing excellent well, and hopefully the pink eye got cleared 94 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 3: up pretty quickly too, I did. 95 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's been back. Yeah. Now, I have very 96 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: fun feelings about pink Ey. It's always kind of a 97 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: good reminder, like focus on the senses. 98 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 3: I think that may possibly be my like least favorite 99 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 3: kid medical thing to deal with. 100 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: But you know, it's. 101 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 3: Highly contagious pages and it goes through everyone. 102 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: Well. 103 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 3: And as part of writing this book, you did a 104 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 3: lot of experiments, and one of those was going to 105 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 3: the Metropolitan Museum of Art very frequently because you live 106 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 3: pretty close, right, I live within walkingness and such. 107 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 1: Yeah. 108 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean I think a lot of people 109 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 3: can see well, obviously that's seeing. 110 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: That must have been her chapter on seeing. 111 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 3: But differently is more than that, right, you view this 112 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 3: as something that was about more senses than that. 113 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: Right. I've always been very interested in repetition and how 114 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: things change with familiarity, and so the idea of going 115 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 1: to the same place every day really appealed to me. 116 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: And as you say, it's like it was for sight, 117 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: but I was also wanting to know, but if I 118 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: used all my senses, how would that deepen the experience 119 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: or change the experience over time? And Laura, I know 120 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 1: from you like your nature. You like to do things 121 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 1: every day too, Like for some people, that's just a 122 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: very sort of appealing. And since I've talked about it, 123 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 1: I realized I thought that was pretty idiosyncratic. But a 124 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: lot of people like to repeat the same thing over 125 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: and over, Like people who are into forest bathing have 126 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: sit spots, and people often take like the very same 127 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: walk through their neighborhood. Because there is something special about 128 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: changing something. Watching something change over time, you can go deeper. 129 00:05:58,000 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: So for instance, like one of the things about the 130 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 1: mass that's really great is they have nine water features, 131 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: fountains and pools, and it's just remarkable how your experience, 132 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: even if you're in a gallery that has no natural light, 133 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: how it feels so much more natural and so much 134 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: more vital when there's just this slight sound of water. 135 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: And what I realized is like it wouldn't be the 136 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: same to just play a recording of running water. That 137 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: might be pleasant, but it wouldn't be the same feeling 138 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: of life. And I really noticed that we're like one 139 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: bonkers thing about the Met is it has an actual 140 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 1: garden on the second floor. And this is just the 141 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:41,239 Speaker 1: if I bring someone to the Met for the person, 142 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: I always take them there because they are so astonished. 143 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: It has plants, it has a pond, it has coyfish 144 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: swimming around, and you walk in there and you're like, 145 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: it's just so different. And that's the sense of smell 146 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: and the sense of you know, you can't touch the plants, 147 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: but it's just like it just feels like so much more, 148 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: like you just feel the five sensus stimulation of nature 149 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: being in this, you know highly, you know this place 150 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: that feels sort of very human, very formal, just to 151 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: see the little wildness of a garden. So yes, and 152 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: then this smells. It's funny, like there's a lot of 153 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: smells in the museum. It has a very distinctive hand sanitizer, 154 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: which will always remind me of the me. I almost 155 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: wish I could get like a bottle of Metropolitan Museum 156 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: hand sanitizer because it is such a proos Madeline cookie 157 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: for me. Now you'll smell people's cologne or perfume. It 158 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: smells different on a rainy day than a hot day. 159 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: It's it's a lot of your senses all the time. 160 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 3: And what would you do like as you went there, 161 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 3: I mean, did you have a sort of methodology of 162 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 3: working through room by room or how the fancy strikes you? 163 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: I mean, right, what's interesting because that was one of 164 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: the questions, like what are the rules, like if there 165 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: are any rules. So the rule is there are no rules. 166 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: I really wanted to this is recess. I'm kind of 167 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: like overly disciplined. I can tend to be rigid and 168 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 1: overly focused. So I really wanted to schedule time to 169 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: wander and really use this as recess where I could 170 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: just wander ound. So sometimes people will say to me, like, well, 171 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: I think you were doing a meditation, and I'm like, 172 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: one hundred percent I am not doing meditation, because if 173 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: meditation is anything, it is some kind of attempt to 174 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: discipline the mind. And I was trying to undiscipline my 175 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: mind and just kind of let myself off the leash. 176 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: So I would go short or long. I would like 177 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: sometimes I would just at the beginning, I did go 178 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 1: from room to room just so I could kind of 179 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: map the whole building, which is gigantic in my mind, 180 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: and have a sense of where I was, and I 181 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 1: would read every sign, but I would go wherever I 182 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 1: felt like. And then once I sometimes I'll give myself 183 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: a little quest, like it's President's Day, let me go 184 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: look at all the pictures of presidents, or Pantone has 185 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: just released its color of the year, let me go 186 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: see if I can find all the examples of the 187 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: Pantone Magenta. But sometimes I just walk around. So there's 188 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: new exhibits, I'll look at those. I have my favorite places, 189 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: I'll go to those. Sometimes I'm like, I want quiet, 190 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: so I go to places that I know are going 191 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,079 Speaker 1: to be quiet. I have my favorites that i'll go visit. 192 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 1: So yeah, it can be long shorts. It's whatever I 193 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: want it to be. And that makes it very fun 194 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: for me and feel very free, even though I go 195 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: every day. Well, what is your favorite section? 196 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 3: I mean, I guess if it's Somebody's going to go 197 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 3: visit Gretchen's favorite section on their their trip to the met. 198 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: Well, I don't know that I have a favorite set. Well, 199 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: I do love visible storage, okay, which if you haven't 200 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people never visit Visible Storage, which is 201 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: like the walk in closet of the MET. I love that, 202 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: probably not for everyone. And then I don't have any 203 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: maybe my American Wing. I do love them, I love, 204 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 1: but I love I love all of them. With repetition. 205 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: I really developed a taste for a lot of things 206 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: that at the beginning I wasn't that interested in. And 207 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: then I have my favorite pieces, like my favorite, if 208 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: I had to pick my favorite piece, it's probably a 209 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: statue called God Horrors protecting King Nektanabo the second. Okay, 210 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: but there's Yeah, I have my life highlight reel. Yeah, 211 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 1: what is that that? It's like a Syrian art or something. 212 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 3: I mean, it sounds like EGYPTI gotcha, Yeah, gotcha. Okay, Well, 213 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 3: but there's a giant wing of Egyptian art, So yes, 214 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 3: go see your pyramids. 215 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: It's probably the most popular, it's certainly one of the 216 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: most crowded. Definitely definitely. 217 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 3: Well, so, well, let's pivot from the met here, because 218 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 3: you did a lot of different experiments and one of 219 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 3: your suggestions is coming up with an audio apothecary. Yes, 220 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 3: so let's let's talk about the audio apothecary and what 221 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 3: this is and why this makes you happier wells. 222 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: As research shows that, I think I think everybody knows. 223 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: Music has a huge influence on our mood, our health, 224 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: emotionally and physically. It can boost our enter it can boast, 225 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: boost our energury, and calm us down. It can help 226 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: us to focus and help us come into rhythm with 227 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: other people. It's kind of interesting about music because it 228 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: is universally present in human culture. All human cultures have music, 229 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: but they don't really know why. There's a lot of 230 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: different things about why that is. But it's not exactly 231 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: clear why it is so universal, but it's definitely something 232 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: that we can all tap into. So I decided to 233 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: create an auto apothecary to cure the blues for me. 234 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: So because a lot I don't listen to music that much. 235 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: That's one of the things I was really working on 236 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: with Life and Five Senses was to really figure out 237 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: how to embrace my own way of listening to music, 238 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: which is not I think the prevailing way of loving music. 239 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: And I thought, okay, well, but and I have a 240 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: lot of songs that I like that put me in 241 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: kind of a melancholy or meditative mode, but this one 242 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: is just pure fun, like pure cheering me up. And 243 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 1: it was so much fun to create that. And now 244 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: whenever I'm feeling kind of listless or lo I can 245 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 1: listen to it and I immediately get a lift. And 246 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people do this, but I 247 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: never had. And you can listen to it on Spotify 248 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 1: if you want to listen to my audio. I've already 249 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: started getting people making suggestions of like, I can't believe 250 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: you don't have Obla dah on your last You got 251 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: to put it on. So that's been fun too to 252 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: see what other people suggest. Awesome. 253 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 3: Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and 254 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 3: we will be right back talking more about life in 255 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 3: five senses. Well, I am back with Gretchen Rubin. We 256 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 3: were talking life and five senses. He just went through 257 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 3: the audio apothecary and a song list of happy songs 258 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 3: I have like ecstatic classical music and mine. I you know, 259 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 3: like the choral section of Beethoven's Ninth where the rodeo parts. 260 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: Of you know, Aaron Copla and anyway, Yeah, no, I 261 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 1: mean it's I mean, that's a great example of how 262 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: there's no one way to do there's no right way 263 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 1: to do this. There's no best of lists that you 264 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: can download. Part of the fun is creating it for 265 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: yourself and having it really reflect your own taste. Like 266 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,199 Speaker 1: I don't listen to classical musics, but now I'm super 267 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: curious to listen to your selection. Yeah. 268 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 3: Now, well you're in the carpool line and all of 269 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 3: a sudden they're singing the Joy Joy Joy, and the Bethoves. 270 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,719 Speaker 1: Pretty moving experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, transcendent. 271 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 3: You said that, Yeah, this song takes you with memory 272 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 3: very well. And I think you mentioned earlier the Proost Madeline, 273 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 3: Scent and Taste, so you know, songs take us back 274 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 3: to a moment in time, but since really do that 275 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 3: as well? I mean you said that you could instantly 276 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 3: smell that hand sanitizer and you're in the Yeah, you 277 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 3: have like some weird like cheap honeysuckle perfume that I'm 278 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 3: like right back in high school or something. Yeah, what 279 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 3: is that connection? Like what's going on in the brain 280 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 3: that brings us back? 281 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I've got to say, like there's a 282 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: lot of arguments about why scent is special because of 283 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: the way the brain processes it, and I have to say, 284 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: kind of whatever because sometimes people they present smell as 285 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: having a particular power. But I'm thinking, well, I think 286 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: sight has that power, I think sound has that power. 287 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: I think taste has that power. I think touch has 288 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: that power. And so why do people kind of think 289 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: that smell has a special power, Because it seems to 290 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: me it's no less powerful, but it's no really more 291 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: powerful despite all these kind of claims about how it 292 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: works in the brain circuitry. So I didn't really to me, 293 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: that's felt fairly unconvincing. I wonder if the reason people 294 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: think of smell as having a special power is that 295 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: it often takes us unawares. So if I hand you 296 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: a cinnamon pop tart and I say this is going 297 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: to remind you of our childhood, then you sort of 298 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: see that coming. Or if I say, oh, okay, now 299 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: I'm going to play you the song that was like 300 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: your favorite song in high school, you kind of are 301 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: aware that a memory is being evoked. But a smell. 302 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: You could be walking down the street and all of 303 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: a sudden you smell somebody wearing that honeysuckle perfume, and 304 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: it takes you back invisibly and instantly, And so it 305 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: feels like it has special power because it's so unexpected, 306 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: it's so surprising, it's so instantaneous, And I will say, 307 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: you're right. People do argue that there is something special 308 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: about the mechanism within the brain. But in my work, 309 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: I'm not that interested in like how things work in 310 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: the brain. I'm very interested in what we can do 311 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: with our conscious thoughts and actions. And so it's more 312 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: like dial in, Like buy a bottle of your favorite 313 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: perfume from the past and use it to evoke memory 314 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: is better than like, let's think about how it's traveling 315 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: through the brain circuitry. I don't know that's right to 316 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: the brain. I guess people are like, oh, this well 317 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: stimulated dopamine. I'm like, well, I can't consciously stimulate dopamine, 318 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: but I can listen to one of my favorite upbeat songs. Yeah. 319 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: So I always focus on what we can consciously do 320 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: and focus less on sort of what is the mechanism 321 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: within the brain that is causing their reaction. 322 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 3: Well, I wonder if it's also that maybe sense is 323 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 3: more of people's like neglected sense or something that it's 324 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 3: when they're not. 325 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: Used to cultivating. Yes, I think that's an excellent point. Yes, 326 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: that it feels more surprising and unexpected because it's less tapped. Yeah, 327 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: I think that's a very I think that's I hadn't 328 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: thought of that, but I think that that really rings 329 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: true to me. 330 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 3: Well, and you have a quiz about the neglected sense. 331 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 3: I'm very curious what you're discovering through that or what 332 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 3: your neglected sense turns out to be. 333 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, so people want to take this quiz. It's fun, 334 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: it's free. Go to gretchenmuvement dot com slash quiz and 335 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: it will tell you you're a neglected sense. So your 336 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: neglected sense is a sense that you tend to overlook. 337 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: So you probably don't tap into it for fun. You 338 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: probably are not that curious about it or interested in 339 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: learn any more about it. You probably don't use it 340 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,399 Speaker 1: for a sort of pleasure or comfort or energy. And 341 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: the reason that this is a useful thing to know 342 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: about ourselves is it's the low hanging fruit. Because if 343 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: you don't tap into a sense, well, then there's probably 344 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 1: a lot of opportunity for you to try things that 345 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: might really bring enrich your life and bring you like 346 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,479 Speaker 1: a lot of pleasure or comfort or energy. Whereas if 347 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: it's something that you're already tapped into. I mean, you're 348 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: probably already tapped into it, Like you don't really need 349 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: help if you're very engaged with a sense already. So 350 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: my neglected sense, which is of no surprise to anybody 351 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: who knows me. And it's interesting. My sister Elizabeth, who's 352 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: the co host of the Happier with Gretchen movement podcast, 353 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: we have the same neglected sense, which is taste. And 354 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 1: you might say to yourself, oh, but taste is such 355 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,959 Speaker 1: a popular sense, but you think all the senses are 356 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 1: very popular. But that's my neglected sense. Now, Laura, did 357 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: you take it? Do you know you're a neglected sense? 358 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 1: So mine's touching. I hear that from a lot of people. Interesting. 359 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know what that means. 360 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 3: I mean, I guess I'm not prone to like petting 361 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 3: animals or wearing clothes with certain textures or anything like that. 362 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: So it could be. But it's the kind of thing 363 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: that you might find it fun, like with your kids, 364 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: like let's get kinetic sand. Let's make a non newtonium 365 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: kinetic sand. Oh I loveetics. 366 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 3: Not in the house, okay, outside outside, yeah, Okay, it's messy. 367 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: Though, well, it manages to be messy. Okay, okay, I 368 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 1: have advanced children on making messes. They can find them, 369 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: but they can find them. The potential non Newtonian corn 370 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: fluid with corn starch, that's amazing. Making things out of 371 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: modeling clay like anything. You just you might find that. 372 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: It's that there's more fun there than once you sort 373 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: of start thinking about it. 374 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, let's get to your neglected sense here of taste, 375 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 3: because one of our listeners questions that they wanted me 376 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 3: to ask you is that you famously do not eat sugar. Yeah, 377 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 3: and so how did this play in your exploration of taste? 378 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: Yeah? So, for people who don't know, the reason that 379 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: I don't in sugar is I have such a blonker 380 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: sweet tooth and it was very hard to manage it. 381 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: It was just so draining and so boring because I'd 382 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 1: be like, now, later I went a little bit more, 383 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: does this count? Just half a piece? Blah blah blah. 384 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: It was just really boring. And then finally I realized 385 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: it's easier for me to have none than to have 386 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: a little bit, and let me just give it up altogether. 387 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 1: And I'm not saying that would work for everyone. In 388 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: my book better than before, I talk about the strategy 389 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: of abstaining and why that has particular appeal to a 390 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: certain kind of person. So I'm not saying everybody should 391 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:36,920 Speaker 1: give up sugar. I'm just saying that for me, that 392 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: was absolutely the right choice and just made my made 393 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 1: my life so much sweeter without sugar. But so I 394 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: had done that years and I gave up sugar years ago. 395 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: But what was fascinating to me is studying the five 396 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: senses revealed to me the answer of something that had 397 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 1: puzzled me four years, which is people would say to me, Gretchen, 398 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: how was it possible to because I gave up sugar 399 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 1: very easily. It was not that hard, not nearly as 400 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: hard as I would have thought. And they're like, but 401 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: there are all these cues that were surrounded by all 402 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: the time to indulge temptations, reminders like how do you 403 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: deal with all these food cues? And I thought, well, 404 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: that's how do I deal with all these food cues? 405 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: Because I don't have this feeling that I'm resisting food 406 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 1: cues all the time. I don't feel tempted by sights 407 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: and smells and sounds and opportunity. I just I just 408 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: didn't really notice it. And why was that Because at 409 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: one time, of course I had this incredibly strong sweet too, 410 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: so I knew what that felt like, and then my 411 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: research revealed it to me. So every brain is specially 412 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: curating our environment for us. So Laura's brain is telling 413 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: Laura what Laura needs and wants to know, and Gretchen's 414 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: brain is telling Gretchen what Gretchen needs and wants to know. 415 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: And that means that our sensory environments are very very different. 416 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: Even if we're in the same room, we could be 417 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: experiencing it very very differently. Brain pretty quickly decided, oh, 418 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 1: this is not interesting to us, This is not useful information. 419 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: Nobody around here needs to notice that those gleaming rows 420 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: of pastries in the shop window. Nobody here really needs 421 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: to be notified about the smell of baking chocolate chip 422 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: cookies coming out of the kitchen. It's not useful, it's 423 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: not interesting, this isn't something that we would act on. 424 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 1: It's not a change that's important. Move on. And so 425 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 1: I think once I did quit sugar, all those cues 426 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: just faded away. If I pay attention, of course, I 427 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: can dial into them. It's not that I can't perceive them, 428 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 1: It's just that they're kind of grayed out and faded 429 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: into the background, Whereas when I was like really eager 430 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: for sugar, those felt very highlighted. And so this was 431 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: just something that always puzzled me. Why didn't I constantly 432 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: experience the temptations of food cues? Was because of my brain. 433 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: My brain had just just dialed down that information without 434 00:21:58,880 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 1: me realizing it. 435 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, you also said something earlier that taps into another 436 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 3: listener question. You said, when you went to the met 437 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 3: and the fountains, like the real water had a different 438 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,200 Speaker 3: feeling than it would have a recording or something else. 439 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: Right, And this. 440 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 3: Listener asked me, are perfumes and candles cheating or is 441 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 3: lighting a rose scented candle as legitimate a pleasure as 442 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 3: planting a rose garden. So when we get to things 443 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 3: like scent, what's the difference between the artificial and the real? 444 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, first of all, like I kind of reject 445 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: the false choice, okay, because they're both real, they're both valid, 446 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: they're different. A rose and a rose garden is different 447 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: from a rose candle. Now, some people will say, hey, 448 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: this perfume that you bought is just all chemicals. But hey, 449 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: guess what water is chemicals? Everything is chemicals. I say 450 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: bring it on. I know that some people don't like it. 451 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 1: So if you're allergic to it, if it bothers you, 452 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 1: if you do not like it, then I would say, 453 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: well then that's not for you, and maybe you would 454 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 1: find another way to tap into your sense of smell. 455 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: But I feel like it's just as legitimate and it's 456 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: something that you can tap into. You can smell a 457 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: rose candle when you would not be able to smell 458 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: a rose garden, and one doesn't push out the other. Now, 459 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: if you feel like, oh, I spend all my time, 460 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: if it crowds out things that you want to do, 461 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: like oh, now that I can smell all my perfumes, 462 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 1: I don't go to the botanical garden and I love 463 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 1: to go to the botanical garden, Well, then you want 464 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 1: to make sure that you still make room for that 465 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: activity in your life. But I think I say bring 466 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 1: it on. The more the better, as long as it's 467 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: a healthy treat and not an unhealthy treat. You know, 468 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,719 Speaker 1: sometimes people will say, well, you know this food has 469 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: been so ultraprocessed to hit every bliss point. It can't 470 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: possibly be a like a fruit could never be as 471 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: incredibly intense as some kind of you know, very hyper 472 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: processed thing. Would want to be aware if you're sort 473 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: of if the unhealthy is driving out the healthy. But 474 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: I would say, for my own view, I would embrace both. 475 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 1: All right. 476 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 3: Well, speaking of embracing boths, so we had a question 477 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 3: about the four tendencies which long time readers listeners of 478 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 3: Gretchen know. She has a rubric of four different tendencies 479 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 3: of how we respond to internal and external expectations. 480 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, Gretchen and I are both upholders. Yes, a small 481 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 1: group of people the view Sarah as well. If she 482 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: were here, she would tell us that too. 483 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 3: Which is why there has been an episode of Best 484 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 3: of Both Worlds every Tuesday for six years. And you know, yes, 485 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 3: you you have done with your podcast as well. 486 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, but this listener asked. 487 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 3: Can I be a different tendency in different areas of life? 488 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 3: She wonders why sometimes she seems to respond readily to 489 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 3: internal expectations and sometimes she just doesn't. The short answer 490 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 3: is okay, from my observation, And again, if people don't 491 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 3: know what we're talking about. This divides people into a polders, questioners, obligers, 492 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 3: and rebels. You can take the quiz at gretchenmreeuben dot 493 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 3: com slash quiz and it will tell you what you 494 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 3: are and give you like a little report that explains 495 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 3: the framework and how you can use it to yourself. 496 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 3: But assuming that people know what we're talking about, so 497 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 3: I would say when, So the short answer is no, 498 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 3: I really believe that people are hardwired with a tendency. 499 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 3: You bring it into the world with you, and you 500 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 3: are not one at work and one at home. You 501 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 3: are not one at age twenty and one in age forty. 502 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 3: But with time and experience and wisdom, you learn how 503 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 3: to use your tendency differently. So from what this person said, 504 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 3: I could say I can make I think no, that 505 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 3: they are solidly one tendency, and if I can ask 506 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,439 Speaker 3: a few questions, I would be able to tell what 507 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 3: they are. What they might be is an obliger who 508 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 3: has unconsciously figured out how to create out our accountability, 509 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 3: even for things that are considered an inner expectation. 510 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: So when I would talk to this person and be like, yeah, 511 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 1: you read more bites, you join a book group, and yeah, 512 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: you exercise regularly, but you're you're considering yourself a role 513 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: model for other people in your life or whatever. There's 514 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: the built in forms of outer accountability, so it isn't 515 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 1: that they're one in one situation and one in the other. 516 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 1: If you're an obliger who's like, oh yeah, but then 517 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: my husband or my wife tells me to do something 518 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: and I ignore it perfectly, freely, I say yes. Because 519 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: sweethearts don't make good outer accountability partners. It's very easy 520 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: for obligers to ignore the outer accountability of a sweetheart 521 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 1: because that counts as inner. It's very romantic. You're so 522 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: close to me, you're like me, so I'm going to 523 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: ignore you just the way I would ignore me. Sometimes 524 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: this is questioners. Questioners are like, I'll do something sometimes 525 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: and not others, and I'm like, yeah, because you're doing something, 526 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,959 Speaker 1: would it makes sense to you. So that's explained the pattern. 527 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 1: And then rebels, you know, rebels do whatever they want, 528 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: and so sometimes they meet inner expectations because they want to, 529 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: and sometimes they don't because they don't want to for 530 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: their own reasons and their own time. But almost always, 531 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: when somebody is saying this to me. They're either an 532 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 1: obliger who doesn't understand how outer accountability has been plugged 533 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: into their life. Like they'll say, well, I'm an upholder 534 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: at work, but I'm an obliger at home. I'm like, now, 535 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,360 Speaker 1: because work you have all the outer expectations that you meet, 536 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 1: you meet them effortlessly, so you feel like an a polder. 537 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,479 Speaker 1: Or they're questioners because questioners will sometimes say, well, I'm 538 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: one of all four tendencies. I'm all four of them, 539 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: because they're like, I'll do it if it makes it 540 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: makes sense, like an upholder, but if it doesn't, if 541 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense, I won't do it like a rebel. 542 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah, you're doing something if it makes sense. 543 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: And that is what questioners do. They think everybody acts 544 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: that way, but they don't, as we all know. So no, 545 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: I don't think that you're one in one circumstance and 546 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: one and the other. I think there are aspects of 547 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 1: the situation that are evoking different responses. Although I think 548 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: on your rubric you could have people it's like, I 549 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 1: don't know what. 550 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 3: They do with the horoscope of like the momentizing, and 551 00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 3: so it's like I'm upholder. 552 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: With the question arise something like that, and that's exactly right, 553 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: and that is my tendency. I think it's your tendency too, 554 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 1: is we're upholder's who tip to questioner, And yeah, that 555 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: will very much flavor your tendency. Like an upholder who 556 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: tips to questioner is very different from an older who 557 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: tips to obliger. A questioner who tips to upholder is 558 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: very different from a questioner who tips to rebel. So 559 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: they definitely it's not like they're all the same. And 560 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: of course every other aspect of their personality is different. 561 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: Are they extroverted or introverted? Are they analytical? Are they curious? 562 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,919 Speaker 1: Are they adventurous? All these things are different. All this 563 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: tells you is if somebody says to you, hey do 564 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: this for me, what do you you know? Or hey, 565 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 1: to myself, hey I should do this, how do I respond? 566 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: So it's narrow, but it's very significant, But it's a 567 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: really useful thing to know about yourself because you know 568 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: it and you're like trying to do something like change 569 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: I have it, or understand why you're having conflict with 570 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 1: someone else. A lot of times the tendencies makes up 571 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: very very clear exactly. So folks have read you know, 572 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: Happiness Project. Can't your daughters as little girls? 573 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 3: And as I mentioned earlier, yeah, they are almost completely 574 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 3: out of the house. Now you're on the last last 575 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 3: five six months of kids in the house. 576 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: I guess. 577 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, how's that changing your life, your work, how you 578 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 3: spend your time. 579 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: Well, it's really interesting and I love if people have ideas, 580 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: like send them a way, because I definitely want to 581 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: embrace this as like a new stage and really think 582 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: about it. And I've asked a lot of people how 583 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: they've thought about it. And one thing that many many 584 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: people have said, and as somebody who travels a lot 585 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: for work, I really want to do this is you 586 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: know when you have kids at home, you like leave 587 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: at the last possible minute and you come home at 588 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: the lost possible minute. And people were like, remember, like 589 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: you could stay in Boston for a couple of days 590 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: and sealed friends, or like plan to do something that 591 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: you've always wanted to do, Like you can like take 592 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: more time, or like travel with your husband, Like you 593 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: could go visit friends for a weekend, and it's just 594 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 1: not such. Of course, we have a dog, so now 595 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,959 Speaker 1: we have to think about the dog too. But so 596 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: that's one thing I'm really thinking about that I really 597 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: do want to embrace this as a new phase and 598 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: think it through and not just sort of have it 599 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: roll over me in kind of a makeshift way. One 600 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: thing I've been wanting to do is because I live 601 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: in New York City, I like, maybe next fall, I 602 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: want to do thirty Days of Culture, where I go 603 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: out for thirty days in a row and do something 604 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: cultural in New York City, just to like get myself back, 605 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: you know. I think a lot of us we haven't 606 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: really gotten back out there to the degree that we 607 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: were maybe before COVID and then having kids, like you 608 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: just want to be home quite a bit. Like I 609 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: want to like get out there and remind myself like 610 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: I can, like all of New York City is here, 611 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: I can take advantage of it. So that's a few 612 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: of the things that I'm thinking about. My older daughter 613 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: lives in New York City, and so I feel really 614 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: lucky because like she comes over every Sunday. We see 615 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: her for holidays, you know, like it was Easter, so 616 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: like she came over to die eggs and we had 617 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: an Easter egg hunt. Even though she's twenty four years old. 618 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: You know, I still want to do that stuff, so 619 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: we do so in that way, I feel very fortunate 620 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: in that we can have this kind of more casual 621 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: you know, repeated but you know, she could move at 622 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: any any day, so I'm just trying to also enjoy 623 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 1: that while last a transitional empty nest. I guess how transitional. Yeah, 624 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: she's definitely like not sleeping. She's out, but she's not far, 625 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: which is different from like, my parents live in Kansas 626 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: City and I never did move back to Kansas you know, 627 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: I was never in Kansas City after I went away 628 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: for college. And that's just a different way of organizing 629 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: your time with your family. Awesome. 630 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 3: So we had a couple of questions about writing and 631 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 3: publishing as well, so one of your favorite subjects as well. 632 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, I know it is. 633 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 3: Well, but you came to this as kind of a 634 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 3: second career because you had a career in the legal 635 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 3: world prior to going to writing, So you know, as 636 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 3: somebody who switched careers, I mean, what writing advice did 637 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 3: you find helpful as you were starting out that you 638 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 3: know you might be able to share with people. 639 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: Oh interesting, I mean I was one of these people, 640 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: and this is not uncommon among writers, and it's actually 641 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: not uncommon among a lot of professions. I think there 642 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: was almost like a compulsion to it. So here I 643 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: was clerking for Justice Sandreday O'Connor. I had excellent legal credentials, 644 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: if I do say so myself, but I had I'm 645 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: at a law. 646 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 3: School, right, and yeah, it's not a you know, fly 647 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 3: by night kind of place, and I just I couldn't 648 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 3: think of what I wanted to do in law. 649 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: I just wasn't sure, you know. I remember reading alum 650 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: magazines and when I saw people who had cool law jobs, 651 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: I felt the kind of mild interest. And when I 652 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: looked at people who had cool writing jobs, I felt 653 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: sort of sick with envy. But while I was clerking 654 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: for Justice O'Connor, I had this epiphany where I was, 655 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: we'll like, walking around during my lunch hour, and I 656 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: just idly asked myself the question, what am I interested 657 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: in that, like everybody in the world is interested, Like, 658 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 1: what's the most interesting subject? And I thought, well, power, money, fame, sex, 659 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: of like power, money, fame, sex, And I instantly started 660 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 1: researching this, which is something that I often do, like 661 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: I'll become become intensely interested in something and do a 662 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: lot of research and note taking. And that's something I've 663 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: done ever since I was young, so that was very familiar. 664 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: But this just got bigger and bigger and bigger. And 665 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: then finally I thought, well, this is the kind of 666 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: thing a person would do if they were going to 667 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: write a book. And then I thought, well, then I 668 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: could write that book. And I just got a book 669 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: called how to Write and Sell Your Nonfiction Book Proposal 670 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 1: and follow the directions. So I think for me it 671 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: was almost easy because I felt such a tremendous pull 672 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: not only to write, but to write a particular book. 673 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: It was like, this is the book that I want 674 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: to write, and it just at a certain point, I 675 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: was like, I'd rather fail as a writer than succeed 676 00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: as a lawyer. I just I want to take my shot. 677 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: And there was a clarity that came from that where 678 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: I was just like, I'm going to see this thing 679 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: through in a way that almost it felt almost like 680 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: I wasn't even making a choice. It just felt like 681 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: a necessity. 682 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 3: Well, and that'said that book idea came to you like that, yep, 683 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:22,720 Speaker 3: And over the years You've had a lot of book 684 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 3: ideas that. 685 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: Howimes you keep coming up with there is but how 686 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: do you know that. 687 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 3: Something is a book idea as opposed like something that's 688 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 3: going to sustain for a couple of years and that 689 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 3: other people will be interested in too, versus like, yeah, 690 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,240 Speaker 3: I should do three blog posts. 691 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: On that and move on. I just know instantly interesting, 692 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,319 Speaker 1: I know instantly. The only thing that I'm kind of 693 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: puzzling about is I have done a huge amount of 694 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 1: work on a little hooky book called My Color Pilgrimage, 695 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: which is a very odd little artifact, but I love it, 696 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,439 Speaker 1: and I was so interested in color. But I did 697 00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 1: it kind of fed into life, in my sense, and 698 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: so I put it to the side. But I have 699 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,760 Speaker 1: been thinking like that's the only thing because I treated 700 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: it like a book. It is very I mean, it's 701 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: obviously no editor has seen it, so I don't know 702 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: if anybody else would be interested in it. But to me, 703 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: it's I put a ton of work into it. But 704 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: it is odd. It's not a traditional narrative. But with 705 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 1: everything else, I was instantly and it's almost like in 706 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: the moment, like I can tell you exactly when and 707 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: where I was when I had my idea to write 708 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 1: my book Forty Ways to Look at Winston Churchill. I 709 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: can tell you exactly when and where I was when 710 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: I had my idea to write my book better than 711 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: before about how to change I mean life in five cents. 712 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: It's like it is funny the Happiness Project. I mean, 713 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: I know exactly where I was exactly. I mean I 714 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: could probably find it in my date book down to 715 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,920 Speaker 1: them almost like within the minute, because they do hit me, 716 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 1: which is a little bit scary because you're always like, well, 717 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: am I going to have another epiphany coming? 718 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 3: I know, I don't feel like I get that many epiphanies. 719 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 3: I want more epiphanies. 720 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: I love it. That's my favorite thing about myself. Like 721 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: my next project, I want to write a book of 722 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 1: aphorisms again. Will anybody be interested in that? I don't know, 723 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 1: but I feel like almost I feel a compulsion. I've 724 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: already written like a thousand and I can tell you 725 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 1: exactly when and where I was in the met. It 726 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: was like it had hit me at the Met. I 727 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: was like I should have write a book of aphorisms. Yeah. 728 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: So that's so it's kind of idiosyncratic. It's not necessarily 729 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: a replicable just. 730 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 3: Say, everyone else needs to wait for lightning to strike 731 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 3: as well. It's like, yeah, the Happiness Project will come 732 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:26,879 Speaker 3: to you, and I know. 733 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 1: I mean, it is funny. And that was the title 734 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: that rarely do do titles come as easily that That 735 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 1: was just what I was like, I should do a 736 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 1: Happiness Project. And many people told me that was a 737 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: terrible title, but I was like, I don't even that's 738 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: just what it is. I don't like it doesn't But 739 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: Life in Five Senses was very very hard title. It 740 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,840 Speaker 1: seems like a very obvious title, but oh my gosh, 741 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: it was very hard to title. You know. 742 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 3: It was the five senses. It was like, well, how 743 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 3: do I get out? I mean, it could have been 744 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 3: like site. 745 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,840 Speaker 1: See what your ear here? I don't know. When somebody suggested, 746 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 1: They were like, what don't you call it see here, smell, 747 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: Taste Touch, and I was just like, well thanks for that, 748 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 1: because when they were taking along the power, Money, Sex fame, 749 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 1: you know line right, yeah, I mean well, and then 750 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 1: I had Taste Touch Go, which I really like, which 751 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,560 Speaker 1: was started at as Taste Touch Listen Go, and then 752 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 1: I thought three was more powerful than four, so Taste, Touch, Go, 753 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 1: which I loved a lot of the titles that I 754 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: came up with, Well, Laura, I know you've you've battled 755 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 1: with titles to their heart, a lot of them. Some 756 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,759 Speaker 1: people love them, and some people were like, this is 757 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 1: the worst title I've ever heard, absolute one hundred percent, 758 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: do not do it. Like I love the title licking 759 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: the Universe, and so many people are like, you absolutely 760 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: cannot do it, and like, but it's so good, it's 761 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: so memorable, Like even if people hate it, they'll remember it. 762 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 1: They will remember it. And then my sister Elizabeth, the 763 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,240 Speaker 1: co host of Halfier, she liked the Magic of Ketchup. 764 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,800 Speaker 1: She was like, everybody loves like everybody's like, why is 765 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: ketchup magic? But then other people said, no, that might 766 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: make you think it's a food book. It might seem 767 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,799 Speaker 1: too limiting. So all of them had like and so 768 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 1: life in five centses. I just decided, let me just 769 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 1: go on the nose, yeah, and just like have you 770 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:14,120 Speaker 1: because with a not especially to the nonfiction book, there's 771 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 1: a lot to be said for people just understanding what 772 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: is this book about. 773 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've had that experience that if people don't know 774 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:23,720 Speaker 3: what it's about you've got an uphill battle. 775 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 1: Well, that's what I think. That's what happened with better 776 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: than before my book about habits. My mother said to me, 777 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 1: why don't you call it the habit of habits? And 778 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 1: I wish that I had, because I think that was 779 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: a great talent. It was almost came to me too easily. 780 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 1: I'm like, I can't just like have my mom tell 781 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: me the best, you know, I like I overthought it. Yeah, 782 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: but again I was like I kind of learned from 783 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: that that it is really a help for readers if 784 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: they instantly know, Okay, like what are we going to 785 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: be talking about? Yeah, exactly. 786 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 2: Well. 787 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 3: One more listener question we had is that if some 788 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 3: you know, writers, content creators, where should they be focusing 789 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 3: their energy to make the biggest impact. I think this 790 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 3: listener is, you know, looking at all the ops. Obviously 791 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 3: you can do blogs, you can do podcast. 792 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: Newsletters, social media in the various forms, where do you 793 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: think is the smartest place to be? You know, that 794 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:10,879 Speaker 1: is a really really hard question, and I don't think 795 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: there's a magic answer, and I also think it's changing 796 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 1: all the time, and it depends on you and what 797 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,960 Speaker 1: you're interested in and your audience and what appeals to them, 798 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,200 Speaker 1: and so you want to think about if you're thinking 799 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 1: about like reach and an audience, you want to go 800 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: where the audience is because you want to make it 801 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,920 Speaker 1: easy for them to find what you're writing about. And 802 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: I really do feel so fortunate because when I started 803 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,239 Speaker 1: using all these tools, I started as just as they 804 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: were starting to kind of come into existence, and so 805 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:45,800 Speaker 1: I could add them gradually. And I'm sure to somebody 806 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,359 Speaker 1: who's starting out now they feel like, oh my gosh, 807 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,879 Speaker 1: there's like fifteen things I should be doing. Once they're 808 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: up and running, they're not that hard to keep going, 809 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: but they are very arduous to get up and running, 810 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: especially when no one's really paying attention, and so that's 811 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,319 Speaker 1: sort of that's sort of discouraging. But I will say 812 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 1: if there's any one piece of advice that I would 813 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 1: ever give to anybody related to writing, and I give 814 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 1: myself this advice all the time, which is have something 815 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 1: to say, and that if you're struggling, often it's because 816 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 1: you're like just trying to put something in. You're like, oh, 817 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: I need to have something in my Instagram feed. Let 818 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: me just throw something up there, instead of having something 819 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,400 Speaker 1: to say, And the more you have something to say 820 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 1: where you're like, I really want to say this, then 821 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: writing becomes so much easier, and wanting to communicate becomes 822 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,799 Speaker 1: much easier and clearer because you're like, I cannot even 823 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,360 Speaker 1: express how excited I am to talk about the five senses. 824 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: I could talk about it all day long. I could 825 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: talk about this, I could talk about like any one 826 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: of the senses all day long. So the opportunity for 827 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: somebody's like, hey, why don't you do something on Instagram, 828 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: I'm like that sounds great because I have so much 829 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,919 Speaker 1: to say. But sometimes we're sort of like we're kind 830 00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: of scrape in the bottom of the barrel. We don't 831 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: really have anything to say. And then I say, stop, think, 832 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: figure out what you want to say, and then all 833 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 1: the other things become clearer. Not to say that it's 834 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 1: still not a lot of work. 835 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 3: I would say, right now, I'm trying to write a 836 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 3: monthly newsletter and have kept restarting and starting. I'm like, 837 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:22,760 Speaker 3: maybe this is a really bad topic and I should 838 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 3: switch write about something else. Because because when you have 839 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,760 Speaker 3: something to say, it like it comes a lot easier. 840 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 1: It's so much easier. I mean, you can even write 841 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: about I have nothing to write about? Or what do 842 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:34,719 Speaker 1: I do when I have nothing to write about? I mean, 843 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: sometimes you just like shine a spotlight on whatever you're 844 00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:39,880 Speaker 1: going through, you know, like, oh, just having had a 845 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: book come out, I feel sort of drained and dry 846 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,640 Speaker 1: and scraped or whatever. I don't know, but I remember 847 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,239 Speaker 1: with my speaking of children, with my daughters, both of 848 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 1: my daughters with their college admission essets, which is, you know, 849 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:56,680 Speaker 1: this huge milestone in people's lives is they said, figure out, like, 850 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,840 Speaker 1: what do you have to say? Don't just feel like 851 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,440 Speaker 1: you need to concoct something to like check the checklist 852 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: of what they're telling you. It should be. Really think 853 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,640 Speaker 1: of something that you're excited to talk about, that you're 854 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,760 Speaker 1: interested in, And then the writing is so much easier 855 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: and it tends to be a lot more interesting too, 856 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: even if the quality maybe isn't as good, there's you're like, 857 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:22,280 Speaker 1: there's more engagement from the writer. Absolutely, all right, Well, Gretchen, 858 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 1: we always end with a love of the week. 859 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:26,799 Speaker 3: So something I've obviously been talking about lots of things 860 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 3: with the senses that one one could love, I will 861 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 3: go first with one that taps at least a couple 862 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 3: We have two really gorgeous cherry blossom cherry trees in 863 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,239 Speaker 3: the yard right now, which is I. 864 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,440 Speaker 1: Was just thinking about lowering blossom. But we are at 865 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 1: the perfect time of year. 866 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,400 Speaker 3: It's like in the Northeast where the Northeast like pink, 867 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 3: pink and white. 868 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 1: It's gorgeous everywhere where. 869 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 3: The Northeast like apologizes for winter for a couple of 870 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 3: weeks in April every year, and you're like, okay, I 871 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 3: love you again. 872 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 1: Yes, it's right now up here. 873 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 3: The cherry blossoms are in full bloom, like little puffs 874 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 3: of white on these branches. So I go out and 875 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 3: just like stand under these two trees, gock up at 876 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,800 Speaker 3: the sky, smell it, let the petals rain down around 877 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 3: me for a while, and I'm very happy. So that's 878 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 3: my love of the week for this week. They'll be 879 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:17,759 Speaker 3: gone next week, but they're great right now. 880 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 1: What is I was just seeing the same thing because 881 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 1: the flowering branches are just so striking, the Forcynthia, the magnolienges, 882 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 1: and we haven't had that much rain, so every pedal 883 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:35,759 Speaker 1: is still on. My love of the week is I 884 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,719 Speaker 1: think Perfume. I really do love for him. My mother 885 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 1: and father in law just had their sixtieth wedding anniversary, 886 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,719 Speaker 1: and as part of the celebration, one of the things 887 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:50,240 Speaker 1: I write about in Life and Five Censes is creating 888 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 1: a five centses portrait of someone. It's a super fun exercise. 889 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 1: And so for as part of like a Toast, I 890 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 1: wrote a five cents's portrait of my mother in law 891 00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,360 Speaker 1: and my father in law. And I realized that in 892 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 1: kind of trying to think of like and I wrote, so, 893 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,759 Speaker 1: I came up with like five memories or associations I 894 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: had for them for each of the five senses, so 895 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,600 Speaker 1: twenty five things altogether. And I realized for my mother 896 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,760 Speaker 1: in law, I really associated her with the signature perfume 897 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:16,759 Speaker 1: that she wore all the time when I first met her, 898 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: which is First. And the funny thing, she doesn't even 899 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: really wear First anymore, and she kind of had forgotten 900 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:25,719 Speaker 1: that she went through this period where it was her 901 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,200 Speaker 1: signature perfume. But for me, because I was like, oh, 902 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,520 Speaker 1: this is my mother in law, it made a huge impression. 903 00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:33,719 Speaker 1: And I thought, you know what, I am just going 904 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:35,840 Speaker 1: to splurge and I'm going to buy myself a bottle 905 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,759 Speaker 1: of First perfume because I had not realized until I 906 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 1: had done that portrait what a strong association it was 907 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,120 Speaker 1: for me with her, even more than she had it 908 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 1: for herself, which is kind of interesting. And then jet, 909 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,800 Speaker 1: just a visit to the perfume counter just made me realize. 910 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,840 Speaker 1: And by the way, I don't wear perfume during the 911 00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:59,680 Speaker 1: day because I know so many people don't like it. 912 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,640 Speaker 1: People wear perfume, but I wear perfume at night and 913 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 1: when I'm at home all day because I love it. 914 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 1: And so you know, just even if out of consideration, 915 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: you don't wear it for other people, if you like it, 916 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: you can still wear it, wear it yourself. So I 917 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:16,840 Speaker 1: love that way to tap into the memory of somebody 918 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 1: who my memories of someone who is so important to me, absolutely. 919 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:22,759 Speaker 3: And particularly if it's the time when you were first 920 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,200 Speaker 3: getting to know her, it's early in your relationship, right, 921 00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 3: It all, yes, brings you because it's funny, like an 922 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 3: imprinted on my brain. 923 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,279 Speaker 1: Also, there's something called the reminiscence bump, which is that 924 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:37,120 Speaker 1: most adults remember most vividly the period between fifteen and 925 00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: twenty five. And I wasn't twenty five when I met her. 926 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:41,680 Speaker 1: I was a little bit older, but I wasn't that 927 00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:43,319 Speaker 1: much older, so maybe I was still kind of in 928 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: that reminiscence bump Era, So it really made a big 929 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,440 Speaker 1: impression on me. Yeah, because it's like she loomed very 930 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,879 Speaker 1: large about she still lives very large in my life, 931 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 1: but particularly then Yes, then. 932 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, awesome. Well, Gretchen, this has been awesome. Thank you 933 00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 3: so much much for joining. 934 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:02,759 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I so enjoyed the chance to 935 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,279 Speaker 1: have the opportunity to talk to you. 936 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, so everybody please go check out Gretchen Ruben's brand 937 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,839 Speaker 3: new book, Life in Five Senses, And we've also talked 938 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,240 Speaker 3: about her website where you can get the various quizzes 939 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:16,799 Speaker 3: Gretchenruben dot com slash quiz so you can learn your 940 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:19,120 Speaker 3: four tendencies, which are the four tendencies you are, and 941 00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 3: you can also learn your neglected sense all sorts of 942 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:23,320 Speaker 3: other useful information. 943 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:24,720 Speaker 1: So thank you, Gretchen. 944 00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,880 Speaker 3: And since we're just ending this without Sarah, just go 945 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,399 Speaker 3: ahead and the episode. We will be back next week 946 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,720 Speaker 3: with more on making work and life fit together. 947 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:35,680 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. 948 00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,000 Speaker 2: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com 949 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,879 Speaker 2: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram and You can 950 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:47,200 Speaker 2: find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has 951 00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 2: been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us 952 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,920 Speaker 2: next time for more on making work and life work together.