1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Hey, listeners, we just want to offer a quick clarification 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:10,159 Speaker 1: for our continued chat with Riquel about transgender issues that 3 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: we had our talk before Caitlyn Jenner came out publicly 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: as Caitlin. That's right, and so we mentioned Bruce Jenner 5 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: in the interview. We used the he and him pronouns because, 6 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: like christ And said, this was before Caitlin announced that 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: she was indeed Caitlyn Jenner. Welcome to stuff Mom Never 8 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: told you. From House Supports dot com. Hello, and welcome 9 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 1: to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and we 10 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: are back today with transactivists writer and friend Riquel Willis 11 00:00:53,720 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: to talk about transgender representation on TV. And Caroline, I'm 12 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: just gonna toss out a name less to a little 13 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:08,479 Speaker 1: free association. Laverne Cox awesome, amazing, Yeah, gorgeous everywhere all 14 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: the time, changing the world. Yeah, magazine covers man. Yeah, 15 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:16,959 Speaker 1: orange is the new Black. Hello, Sophia, so good. I'm 16 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: only going to speak in staccato phrases from here on out. Yeah. Well, 17 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: I mean the reason that Laverne Cox is so awesome 18 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: and that we're going to be speaking a lot about 19 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 1: her today and the Laverne Cox effect, isn't It's not 20 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: only that she's playing real, warm blooded, actual people on TV, 21 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: but she's using her incredible platform for good. This woman 22 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 1: has not only starred in TV shows like Orange Is 23 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: the New Black, but she's also behind the camera producing 24 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: documentaries featuring the lives of trans teens out there in 25 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: the world who are just trying to get by as well. 26 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: And so she's an incredibly important figure to talk about. Yeah, 27 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: I mean, speaking of documentary, she just won a Daytime 28 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: Emmy for producing the MTV documentary Laverne Cox Presents the 29 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: T Word, which Raquel is going to talk about a 30 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: little bit more later in the show. And the thing 31 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: about Laverne Cox too is that she well understands, not surprisingly, 32 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,959 Speaker 1: the type casting of trans characters that we focus on 33 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: a lot in our last episode. You know, before she 34 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,519 Speaker 1: got her big break, she did have to play a 35 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: number of sex workers. She did have the brief characters 36 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: in Law and Order as like we mentioned the last episode, 37 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: as did pretty much every A List character today. And 38 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 1: she also though, in terms of using her platform and 39 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: being an openly trans woman in Hollywood, she made history 40 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: as the first openly transgender woman nominated for an Emmy 41 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: last year for Orange is the New Black. And in 42 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 1: addition to Orange Is the New Black, she's made guest 43 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:03,119 Speaker 1: appearances on The Mindy Project, Faking It and Girlfriend's Guy 44 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: to Divorce, And she recently wrapped a pilot for CBS 45 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: called Doubt, in which she plays a lawyer wearing lots 46 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:16,679 Speaker 1: of cool pants suits and I'm definitely excited to see it. 47 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: And and of course Laverne Cox isn't the only example 48 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: of rising transgender visibility that we've seen in the past 49 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,359 Speaker 1: twelve months. And so of course, in addition to Laverne Cox, 50 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 1: you've got the wonderful Janna Mak who has her show 51 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: on MSNBC. She did a fabulous interview with Oprah Um. 52 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: But of course we also have the news that sort 53 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: of took over the entire Internet for a little while, 54 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: which was the Bruce Jenner interview with Diane Sawyer. Seventeen 55 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: million people tuned in to watch that, and Jenner's own 56 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: personal docuseries is coming to the E Network in July 57 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: of Yeah, and then you have Scott Turner, who also 58 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: briefly took over the Internet with news Um when he 59 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: became daytime TVs first openly transactor and playing a trans 60 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: character notably as well on The Bold and the Beautiful, 61 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: And then you also have projects like Becoming Us, which 62 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: is in the pipeline for ABC Family, which is focusing 63 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: on a fictional team dealing with a parents transition, which 64 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: sounds kind of like Transparent on Amazon from maybe one 65 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: of the kids perspectives. But as we're going to talk 66 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: about with her Keel more in depth today, while it's 67 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: incredible to see the pace of how this transvisibility has 68 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: really permeated pop culture, you know, into mainstream Middle America, 69 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: there's still a long way to go. And we just 70 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: want to briefly talk about this two thousand and twelve 71 00:04:55,800 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: study that GLAD conducted looking at the representation and of 72 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: transgender characters in TV and film. And Nick Adams, who's 73 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: the director of the trans Media Program at GLAD, said, 74 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 1: there's a perception that there's been an explosion of transgender 75 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: characters on TV, but when you look at the numbers, 76 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: that's not true. And he was telling that to Variety magazine. Yeah, 77 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: and Adams goes on to talk about how, according to 78 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: the GLAD survey, only one show on broadcast TV that's 79 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: not Netflix, that's not Amazon, that's broadcast TV currently features 80 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: a trans regular and that's The Bowl and the Beautiful, 81 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: And not a single studio movie last year had a 82 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: prominent trans character. Yeah, And and digging a little deeper 83 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: into that study, which analyzed film and television over the 84 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: last ten years, the survey found that more than half 85 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: of trans characters depicted on TV were portrayed in a 86 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: negative light. And we're problematic in various kinds of ways. So, 87 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: for instance, fort pent of the time you saw a 88 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: trans character on television in the past ten years, they 89 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: were cast in a victim kind of role. At least 90 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: twenty one percent of the time they were cast as 91 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: killers or villains. And and the victim and the killer 92 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: stereotypes were things that we touched on too in our 93 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: last episode, because these are some of the common tropes 94 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: that trans characters tend to be tossed into. Yeah, And actually, 95 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: the most common profession that we saw trans characters in 96 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: was that of sex workers. Of those character depictions were 97 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: working as sex workers. And of course, there were plenty 98 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: of storylines at least sixty one percent of the catalog 99 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: episodes that included ant trancelors, language and dialogue in the episode. Now, 100 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: I would be curious to see what would happen if 101 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: they adjusted their data set to include fourteen and fifteen, 102 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: because I have a feeling that the numbers would change 103 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: in a positive way. But still, as we're going to 104 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: talk to Riquel about nonetheless, even where we are right 105 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: now today in mid again, more progress needs to be 106 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: made because there's still in all of the media coverage 107 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: about it. In the way even that networks talk about 108 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: these kinds of characters or these entire kinds of shows 109 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: like ABC Families Becoming Us, there's this novelty factor attached 110 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: to it of like, oh, well, we're going to be 111 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: a little bit new and different and show this storyline 112 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: that you've never really seen before, which kind of I 113 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: don't know, it still is other ing in a way, right, Yeah, 114 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: it's still can be mothering, And I mean that raises 115 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: the question of, you know, are we in a very 116 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: hopeful manner working toward really wonderful trans visibility and trans representation, 117 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: or are we eventually be on that working toward Well, yeah, 118 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: there's just a trans character on that show. Yeah, they're 119 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: I mean, they're just that's just x y Z character 120 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: Like cool. There's no need need to call it out necessarily. 121 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: It's just known and accepted kind of like, oh well, 122 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: if there's a lesbian on the cast, like, oh well, yeah, 123 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: that's just a lesbian character. That's just Stacy, right. And 124 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: so it will be interesting to watch as we go 125 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: through through the years, how how quickly, because it does 126 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: seem like things have accelerated in the past couple of years, 127 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: like you said, and so it will be interesting to 128 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 1: see how quickly we get to a point where it's like, oh, yeah, 129 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: that's just that's just that character. Yeah, because I think 130 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: the litmus test is really going to be, like you said, 131 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: when we end up with these shows and these characters 132 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: where their biological sex that they were born with, that 133 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: their physical anatomy, that their transition isn't constantly the focus 134 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: of every single thing that they that their gender identity 135 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 1: isn't seen as a primary conflict in the show. So 136 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: let's get back to our conversation with Raquel, because she 137 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: has lots of helpful insights on all of this to offer. 138 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: I want to now talk about the TV show Transparent. 139 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it's been a huge hit. It's made all 140 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: of these waves in the media, But a lot of 141 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: people have raised the issue online, especially that uh, it 142 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: might be problematic for sis actors to be cast in 143 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: trans roles. Do you think that this is a problem 144 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:35,839 Speaker 1: or just do you think it depends on the actor 145 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:43,839 Speaker 1: who's in the role. Like everything else, I think it's complex. Um. 146 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: I would definitely say that I personally would love to 147 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: see more transactors fulfilling role the trans characters, just because 148 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: I'm all about authentic portrayals it and it's just as 149 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: when people have issues with white people playing characters of 150 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 1: a different race. That's kind of where I stand. But 151 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:12,839 Speaker 1: then I also know that the other side of the 152 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:17,199 Speaker 1: argument is, well, Neil Patrick Harris plays straight character, so 153 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 1: why can't he play a woman? And the thing is 154 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: is that there's so much of this fast nation on 155 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 1: the trans experience as what you were born as, right that, 156 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: And that's what it is is people want to define 157 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: people based on their birth sex and not define them 158 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: based on what they tell you they identify as what 159 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 1: they actually live as. Um. And that's the problem that 160 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: I have, right, is that I don't think that says 161 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 1: people have as much of a say and and what 162 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: would be a healthy portrayal of a trans character because 163 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: you're not transudn't or it's very different, And I get 164 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: with Transparent, the the main argument for having Jeffrey Tambor 165 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 1: in this position is that they're showing a person pre 166 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: transition and then actually during a huge bulk of their 167 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: transition period. So I get the point that people are 168 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: trying to make with that, but I think it's very 169 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: harmful when we say that men can play women and 170 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: men can play trans women, because it just plays into 171 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: that whole man and addressed trope, and people don't want 172 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:44,199 Speaker 1: to critically consider why it's okay for a trans woman 173 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: to just be a woman and not be defined by 174 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: all of this assumed history of where she comes from 175 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: and of what she looked like and of what surgery 176 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: she may have had or have not had. Yeah, I 177 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: mean when it comes to Jeffrey Tambor, she too. He 178 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: at least has been far more widely praised for not 179 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: only his portrayal but also in his um like during 180 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: Awards season with his acceptance speeches of acknowledging the trans community, 181 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: and I think he has at least shown more self 182 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: awareness in terms of this cis trans um like issue 183 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 1: that a lot of people raised compared to Jared Letto. 184 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: We had to mention Jared Letto, who alienated trans people 185 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 1: and a lot of SIS people too. Frankly um in 186 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: his role in Dallas Buyers Club, which some people said 187 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 1: where it was like far too trophy, but it was 188 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: more so his apparent trans ignorance during Awards season, like 189 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: when he won the Golden Globe, when he won his Oscar, 190 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: there was like no mention whatsoever, and even at one 191 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: point him just joking about having to get a body wax. 192 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: So I guess at least, at least with Jeffrey Tambor, 193 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: it's better than Jared Letto, although that is a horrible 194 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 1: standard that Jared better than Jared Letto. You should not 195 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: be the standard, obviously, But I wonder too how much 196 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: of a difference it would make if we had a 197 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: trans person who's behind the camera. I mean, it's something 198 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: we've talked about in terms of portrayals of of women 199 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: in film, where a lot of times, if you have 200 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 1: men writing all the roles, like, the women aren't always 201 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 1: portrayed so authentically so, and I think this is something 202 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: that Janet Mak has brought up before as well, it's like, well, 203 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: if we were making and directing these roles, obviously we 204 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: would be casting them differently too. Definitely, definitely, I think 205 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: there needs to be a whole entire uprooting of how 206 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: we've been targeting these storylines, right. I think we need 207 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: trans people in front and behind the camera. I think 208 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 1: we need trans people in the riding room. And I 209 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: will say, at least on transparents and Jill following the creator, 210 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: she did hire a trans writer for the next season, 211 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: so there will be a trans writer, and at least, 212 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: to be fair, she does have a lot of trans 213 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 1: characters and ensemble roles in the show, so she's really 214 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: trying to make up for the fact that the main 215 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: character is portrayed by Asi Man and and I wholeheartedly 216 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: give her a random applause for that, because that's that's 217 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: really awesome that at least when she's getting these critiques, 218 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: she's using them to try and make this a better 219 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: experience and a better portrayal. The only thing I will 220 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: say is that at the end of the day, this 221 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: is still a transnarrative portrayed through aist gender lens, right, 222 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: she is still even if it's coming from a place 223 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: of authenticity. On the end of having a parent who 224 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: has trans I still would rather hear it from her 225 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 1: are now mother's perspective, right, I would rather hear it 226 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: from the source instead of filtered through assist gender lens 227 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: and the other thing that she was. I also, just 228 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: to put this in context, A lot of times I 229 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: speak about race because I think people kind of get 230 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: that a little bit more, and I liken it to 231 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: how we're targeting transgender roles. But I liken it to 232 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: the Help. Right, there was a lot of critique on 233 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: having a white woman tell the story about black women 234 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 1: in the sixties. Right. There's a problem with that, right, 235 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: when narratives are co opted when the source isn't really 236 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: present at any step of the way. Well, and in 237 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: the case of The Help Too, or you have the 238 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: white narrator also playing the part of a white savior, 239 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: which only complicates matters right. Well, So it seems like 240 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: going back into TV history, the very limited TV history 241 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: that we have in recent years of trans characters on TV, 242 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: it seems like we're way more likely to see trans 243 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: women than we are trans men. Like going back to 244 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: Candice Cane being on a couple of different TV shows 245 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 1: and Rebecca remain playing a trans woman on Ugly Betty. Um, 246 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: why why, what's up with with the lack of trans 247 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: men on TV? It's complex that the title is episode Well, 248 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: I definitely think we have to consider that. A lot 249 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: of times it goes back to what's happening behind the scenes. 250 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: A lot of the media were producing. It's still being 251 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: created for the male lens, right, for the male gaze. 252 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: And when you think about women feminine and in womanhood, 253 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: you think about how sexualized it is. And so trans 254 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,959 Speaker 1: women for a long time have really been relegated to pornography, 255 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 1: have been relegated to sex work because they were locked 256 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: out of different positions. Only now are we seeing trans 257 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: women who are creating tech companies and winning awards for 258 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: roles that aren't porn related. Let's be real about it. 259 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: So I think a lot of it has to do 260 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: with how sexualized trans women are, um and how when 261 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: we think about trans men within society, a lot of 262 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: times we're seeing people considering them trying to take on 263 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 1: that mail privilege, right, And that's not what it's about. 264 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: This is just someone who's trying to live their life 265 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: as authentically as anybody else. It's not about trying to 266 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: take on mail privilege, it's not about trying to take 267 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 1: up space as a man. The thing is is that 268 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 1: that isn't seen as being palatable to the male gaze, right, 269 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: That's not seen as as someone trying to be consumed, right. 270 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: But whereas with trans women, we automatically are seen as 271 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 1: trying to be consumed, trying to be seen as sexually 272 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: viable options for sis gender straight men, and that's not 273 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: the case. Well, and they're also seems to be this 274 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: persistent fascination, even going back to the days where the 275 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: closest you got to a transport trail was like a 276 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: cross dressing punch line, there seems to be this fascination 277 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: with the idea that a you know, a biological male 278 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: at some point would want to give all that up 279 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: in terms of privilege and like take on a female identity. 280 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 1: That seems so too, just in the way that like 281 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: you were talking about in terms of the focus on 282 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: how SI actors playing trans roles constantly puts the focus 283 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 1: back on well, what was your you know, you're assigned 284 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: sex at birth, Like it always takes it back to that. 285 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: There seems to be this thing particularly in terms of 286 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: trans women, of this like mind blowing idea that that 287 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:27,640 Speaker 1: could ever cross someone's mind to want to be a woman, Right, 288 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: I definitely think a lot of it has to do 289 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: with this very fragile, constructive masculinity that we have within 290 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,200 Speaker 1: our society. Right, trans women are seen as a threat. 291 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 1: It's seen as if you're going to transition into a woman, well, 292 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: what does that mean for me? Does that mean that 293 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: my identity is not as rigid? And maybe I'm not, 294 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: but I am, so you're wrong and I have to 295 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 1: completely ex your narrative out of the conversation, right, Well, 296 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: and then too on top of that, and we see this, 297 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: um we've seen this in film and also sometimes um 298 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: in more problematic TV representations as well, of the whole 299 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: deception element because talking about that like fragile masculinity and 300 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: heteronormativity to throw out all of the words, Um, there's 301 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: that panic of well, wait a second. If I'm a 302 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: straight guy and I'm attracted to you and you're a 303 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: trans woman, well does that make me a gay? World 304 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: comes crushing down? You know? There there is that it 305 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: seems like there's that fear in the background of like 306 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: what but what what does that mean about it's so 307 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: self focused, Like, but what is your identity mean about 308 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: my identity? Right? And and that's really how it is 309 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: with every marginalized group. Right. If women want to be 310 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: breadwinners and and have jobs and do all of these 311 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,719 Speaker 1: things early on and even still now, men we're like, well, 312 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: what does that mean for me? Does that mean I'm 313 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: not as strong? Does that mean I'm not as intellectual? 314 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: Does that mean I'm not as amazing as I thought 315 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 1: I was? So I think that's very true, and and 316 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: it is important for us to also discuss the homophobia. Right. 317 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: It's like, even if you were gay, dude, like, it's fine, 318 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: But we see straight men having to constantly prove that 319 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 1: they are the stereotypical definition of masculine, that they fit 320 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: into the right box. So we see straight men having 321 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: to constantly prove their identity to us. So the interesting 322 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: thing is that none of us are really that different 323 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 1: after all. Right, We're all having to assert this box 324 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: to the general public of who we are. And the 325 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: interesting thing to me is that people think that trans 326 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: people are so fringe, are so different, But we're just 327 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: out here trying to survive and and grow and build 328 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: our dreams and aspirations like anybody else, right, We're not 329 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: trying to threaten anyone's identity. We're not out here trying 330 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: to make anyone feel necessarily uncomfortable. We're just living. And 331 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 1: I do think though it's notable that that fear of 332 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: deception does not seem to exist at all among the 333 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: CIS straight female community in terms of like, there's not 334 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: this like, am I going to be attracted to a 335 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 1: transman at some point in my life? And then will 336 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: my world come crumbling down? I just and I'm not 337 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: entirely I mean, obviously it relates back to what we're 338 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 1: talking about in terms of masculinity constructs. But um, and 339 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 1: I don't have any like deep insight into why why 340 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: that is Maybe because there is more of this general 341 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: except been some female sexuality is just being more fluid, 342 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: you know, we're more we're into bonding, we're into emotions. 343 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 1: Were not maybe so um so insecure in that I'm 344 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,959 Speaker 1: asking stating that as a question up talk. Well, I mean, 345 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: there's there's less of a cultural idea of like a 346 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: woman having to prove her femininity by dating a like 347 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: super masculine person. You know, it's it's way more of 348 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: a cultural thing that like the man, like you were saying, Raquel, 349 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: like the man has to prove that he's super masculine, 350 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: he's got to date like somebody super feminine. Um. I 351 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: apologize for my from my fake male voice. I know 352 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: men don't talk like this, Um, not all men, but yeah, 353 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: I just wonder if like, culturally women kind of get 354 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 1: off the hook that way in terms of like it's 355 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: not a it's not a thing as much really in 356 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: our cultural conversation about a woman who like assist woman 357 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: falling in love with a trans man, it doesn't seem like, oh, well, 358 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,479 Speaker 1: but I have to prove that I'm super feminine. Well, 359 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,639 Speaker 1: because it doesn't take a particular kind of presentation for 360 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: a woman to be objectified. Like that's just how it is. 361 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,959 Speaker 1: Hence us doing this podcast and talking about it all 362 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: the time. Because that is if I can run down 363 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: the road as a do when I go jogging, and 364 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: be disgusting and red faced and sweaty and in old 365 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: running clothes and still have you know, sexual comments yelled 366 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: my way hello that that's very true. And you'll find 367 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,719 Speaker 1: if you look around there are so many stories about 368 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: trans men and women dating and and how amazing that is. 369 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: But you rarely find as many trans women and sith 370 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: men about their relationships. There's shame around, um, a man 371 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: being attracted to a trans woman, But yet we see 372 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 1: so many more trans women on TV and in movies, 373 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 1: and yet their romantic plot lines are often problematized because 374 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: of being trans. That was something we read a whole 375 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 1: paper about this, where romance is always the conflict because 376 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: of exactly what you're talking about, right, Definitely, I think 377 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: it's interesting that we've seen a lot of trans women 378 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: characters at least in these main roles, but still their 379 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: validation and their identity is so contingent on the men 380 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: in their lives. Right, we will still see the main 381 00:25:54,040 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: character of a trans woman put down and really dismissed 382 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: as an actual viable romantic or sexual option just because 383 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: of our trans status. So you're perfectly right that a 384 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: lot of times the romance is something that's not seen 385 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 1: as a possibility. Well, and when it comes to attraction 386 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: in general too, it seems like pop culturally all of 387 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: the a lot of these representations also are still heteronormative, 388 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: to the point of assuming that the trans women are 389 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: exclusively attracted to men too. I mean, there's so many 390 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: different layers to it. There's so much conflating too of 391 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 1: gender identity and sexual orientation. Like clearly, we even though 392 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: we were seeing more and more of these characters and 393 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: having trans icons like Liverne Cox, you know, really becoming 394 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: household names, we still have a lot to learn, right, 395 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: and that's why I think the Orange and the New 396 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: Black narrative is very important. At least early on, we 397 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: see lavarn Cox of character Sophia Barthett and her wife 398 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: making it right at least trying to make this happen. 399 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: But again, her wife is not a lesbian and so 400 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: that did problem with hide their storyline. But at the 401 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: very least we see her still loving the person that 402 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: Sophia is. Yeah, but then you also see Sophia continue 403 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,479 Speaker 1: on in the show as a regular human character who 404 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: has problems and joys and sadness just like all of 405 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 1: the other characters on the show. Her story isn't built 406 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 1: solely upon that relationship with her wife. Um, she's more 407 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 1: multifaceted than that, which I think is something something we're 408 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: celebrating that it doesn't just stop with like, oh, well, 409 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: you know, she transitioned and the relationship broke up, and 410 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 1: let's judge her because of that. There was there's so 411 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: much more to her character, which is good to see. 412 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 1: And so then that leads me to the question of 413 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: what you think about this whole Laverne Cox effect, especially 414 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: across sort of across media in general, and why you 415 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: think that she has had such a bigger cultural influence 416 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: than someone like Candice Kane, who was sort of a 417 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: pioneer in TV. I think Laverne Cox is very unique 418 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: because as soon as she hit the scene, she made 419 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: a point to talk about trans issues right, talking about 420 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: issues that are real, talking about people like Seizing McDonald, 421 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: the trans woman from Minneapolis who she killed her attacker 422 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: and self defense because he was throwing racist and transphobic 423 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: flars at her and her friends and attacking them. You 424 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 1: see her talking about the trans woman Ellen Nettles, who 425 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 1: was killed by an attacker and a hate crime right 426 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: outside of a police station and no one really did 427 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: anything about it. So Laverne Cox deserves all of the 428 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: credit that she gets because she has taken her platform 429 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: and use it for goodwill towards all trans people. She 430 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 1: literally talks about the hard hitting issues that effect that 431 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: she talks about disenfranchisement, she talks about lack of adequate 432 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: housing and health qu care and discrimination in terms of 433 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: trying to find housing. So she's hitting all of these 434 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: marks and that is why she's become such a cultural figure. Well. 435 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: Speaking of Levern Cox to one of her projects outside 436 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: of Oranges in New Black is a documentary on trans 437 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: teens that she oversaw for MTV, and that made me 438 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: think about perhaps differences in more reality types of programming 439 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: versus scripted And I was wondering if you've seen any 440 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: kinds of any ways in which maybe in reality on 441 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: reality TV, are trans characters allowed to be more themselves? 442 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: Are they still subject to a lot of these tropes 443 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: that scripted television is only finally now slowly breaking out of. 444 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: I definitely think with Reality TV it is breaking away 445 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: from these scripts that are often written by people who 446 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: don't really know about the trans experience, may not even 447 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: actually know a trans person, and probably won't even cast 448 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: the trans person, so let's not even go there. But 449 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: I definitely think Reality TV, at least on the documentary front, 450 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: is helping us see literally realistic portrays portrayals of trans 451 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: people and the T Word, which is the documentary that 452 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: she did. I mean, it's phenomenal and it does let 453 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: people know that trans people come in all ages, right, 454 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: you know, trans people aren't necessarily just transitioning at sixty 455 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: like Bruce Jenner. Trans people, our teams, trans people are 456 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: kids like Jazz Jennings, the fourteen year old who's about 457 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: to have her own reality show AND's TLC. I mean, 458 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: we're everywhere, and it's great to see that being acknowledged. 459 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: And I also want to say, I think the other 460 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: interesting thing about Laverne Cox is that she does not 461 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: shy away from talking about trans issues. I think, and 462 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: don't quote me on this, I'm not completely sure, but 463 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: I think with people like Candice Cane and trans women 464 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: before her, who were pioneers, a lot of it was 465 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: about passing and not letting on so much that you 466 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: were trans right, and just trying to be seen as 467 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: a normal person. And then sis gender was considered normal, right. 468 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: We didn't even have the term such gender because it 469 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: was like normal people and trans people. But now people 470 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: like Laverne Cox, people like Janet Mock are like, just 471 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: as I am a black person, just as I am 472 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: a woman, I am a transgender woman. It is just 473 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: one other descriptor of me as anything else. I will 474 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: educate you as much as I can, but it is 475 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: not not all that there is to me. Yeah, it's 476 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: it's wanting to be seen for who you are, not 477 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: wanting people to stop at their own preconceived notions of 478 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: what you're supposed to be. And that's I mean, that's 479 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: true of anybody though. You just want to be seen 480 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: for who you are. But then, I mean, speaking more 481 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: on the reality show front, and specifically about Bruce Jenner, 482 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: what was your take on on the interview. I mean, 483 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: social media like exploded. Social media was all over that story. 484 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: I am kind of shocked, right that so many people 485 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: are or at least had been, talking about the Bridge 486 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: Ginner interview, and so many people watched it. I mean, 487 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: it was one of the highest rated ABC specials in 488 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: a long time. And it's great, right because I think 489 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: that Bridie Genner was very down to earth with his approach. 490 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: And I'm using him because he said that that was 491 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: okay at least at this point in the interview. But 492 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: I saw him using a realistic approach. I saw him 493 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: making sure to not make a spectacle of his situation. 494 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: A lot of it was, and this is problematic on 495 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: one hand, but necessary. It was abating the fears that 496 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: people had, right, It was abating the fact that people 497 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: see being trans as this crazy rebellious thing to do 498 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: within our scie. But it's not. It's just a fact 499 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: of life for some people. And I thought it was 500 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 1: also great that he at least had these little segments 501 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,479 Speaker 1: of the interview that did talk about other trans people, 502 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: that did talk about marginalization for other trans people who 503 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:22,320 Speaker 1: aren't wealthy and well to do and aren't cultural figures 504 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: like he is. Right, he on some level acknowledge that 505 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: he had a privilege to even have this platform to 506 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: use his story to educate people in too inspire other people. 507 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 1: The only thing is that I hope we will see 508 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: more trans people being able to tell their stories in 509 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: that way and be able to lift that veil a 510 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 1: little bit more, because again, that is a singular story, 511 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: that is one person story, one trans person story. That 512 00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: is not how it is for everyone who is trans. 513 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: And I hope most of the people understood that. Well, 514 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:08,320 Speaker 1: do you think that this is positioning him as a 515 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: trans icon? I think yes, unfortunately, and I think a 516 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: lot of times the larger society gets to choose who 517 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: the icons for the marginalians groups are, right, because you 518 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: see that with people immortalizing m Okay. Yes, m Okay 519 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: was a brilliant guy for the black community, but he 520 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: was not the only guy. You know, you never hear 521 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 1: people talk about people like Malcolm G's as much as 522 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: they talk about people like m Okay. You never hear 523 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 1: them talking about Angela Davis as much as they talk 524 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:53,760 Speaker 1: about m Okay. And and so I wonder if people 525 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 1: will talk about Bruce Jenner in the future more than 526 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 1: they talk about someone like Laverne Cox, someone like Janet 527 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 1: ma Uck. And it's almost unfair on two hands because 528 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: it completely outshines all of the work that people like 529 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: laver And Cox and Janet Mock have been doing since 530 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,840 Speaker 1: the beginning of their media careers. And it's unfair to 531 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: Bruce Jenner to put all of this weight on his 532 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: shoulder when he's really just starting his transition. Right. The 533 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 1: expectation to be a spokesperson and an educator just because 534 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,319 Speaker 1: you fit within an identity is unfair, And I think 535 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 1: a lot of times trans people have been forced to 536 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: educate people around them when it's like, look, you have 537 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: Google now, like you can look up some of this 538 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: one on one stuff and not ask me all of 539 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:51,839 Speaker 1: these questions. Well yeah, I mean I think you see 540 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: that in interviews both with Janet Mock and Laver and Cox, 541 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: who are like, listen, you know if you want to 542 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 1: talk about things like the actual ins and out of 543 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: the transition and the surgery, like, let's well, we can 544 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: talk offline. You can again use the Google. But it's 545 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: like there's a bigger story at hand than just like 546 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: the actual physical stuff. Well and imagine you and I 547 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 1: sitting here Caroline too, sis gender straight women, Like how 548 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 1: bananas it seems to have if we were to have 549 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: to explain our bodies, what was under our clothes and 550 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: what is in our minds and what are like sexual 551 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 1: orientation was every few days constantly just be like no, no, 552 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 1: no no. So here's the breakdown. This is me Like, 553 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: we get to just live our lives. We don't have 554 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 1: to like go through all of those things. No one, 555 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,800 Speaker 1: no one is waiting for us to be the spokesperson 556 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: a sist people because that doesn't you know, we we 557 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:58,720 Speaker 1: just accepted as as it is. Yeah, well, moving forward raquel, 558 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:04,839 Speaker 1: pulling it back to trans representations on TV. Clearly we've 559 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 1: made progress, but clearly there's still lots of progress that 560 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: can be made. So I'm just wondering near ideal night, 561 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: you're sitting down, you're relaxing, you tear on the TV. 562 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: What kinds of trans characters would you like to see 563 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,520 Speaker 1: on TV? What kinds of roles would you love to 564 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 1: see portrayed by transactors. I guess I'm more concerned right now, 565 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:35,720 Speaker 1: at least seeing trans people period out in the world 566 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: in real life, in more positions, right, having more access, 567 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: having to not worry about basic things like which bathroom 568 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: to use and whether they will be allowed to use 569 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: the restroom comfortably. I would like to see trans people 570 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: not worrying about finding a safe school that they can 571 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:00,320 Speaker 1: attend and being validated in their idea and he's and 572 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,839 Speaker 1: not have to worry about that. I want to see 573 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: trans people being able to be lawyers and politicians and 574 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 1: doctors without all of this baggage and where they came from, 575 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: and that mirrors what I would like to see on television, right. 576 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: I would love to see a trans Alle mcbell as 577 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,240 Speaker 1: just the Ally mcbeill character. And not have to worry 578 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: as much about where she came from and how she 579 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: knew she was trans and all of these one on 580 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 1: one questions. I want to get beyond the basics, get 581 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:41,240 Speaker 1: literally get beyond the label of transgender, and talk about 582 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 1: what it just means to just exists in this world. Right, 583 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: It's interesting to me that everything has to be literally 584 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,320 Speaker 1: black and white, it has to be sis and trans. 585 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,680 Speaker 1: Why can't we just have whole listing narratives to begin with. 586 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:06,239 Speaker 1: Why can't we have the Office with a main transgender 587 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,800 Speaker 1: character and not be a huge deal. Why can't we 588 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: have a show like Girls have a trans woman in 589 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 1: a main role, or I mean, we're still fighting to 590 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: have racial representations and main roles. It just boggles my 591 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: mind that people I can't think beyond having an all 592 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 1: black cast or an all white cast, or in all 593 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: of this cast just mix it up people, well, especially 594 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: since you know there's the argument of like, well I 595 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 1: just you know, I just write what I know, and oh, 596 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: I was I only have white people or or six 597 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: women in my group of friends, so that's all I'm 598 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:46,840 Speaker 1: going to write about. And it's like, well, you do 599 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,759 Speaker 1: realize that this is television which is a made up land, 600 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 1: and you can have any type of character that you 601 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: have choose to include. And so it's like, come on, like, 602 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 1: let's get on the diversity bandwagon here and and recognize 603 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 1: that it's not only okay, but but wonderful and ultimately 604 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: super beneficial to show different types of stories. Right. And 605 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: it's funny, it's like you're doing more work than you 606 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,399 Speaker 1: have to write because you have to make your storylines 607 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:22,439 Speaker 1: that much more off the beaten path and that much 608 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:28,520 Speaker 1: more over the top because you don't have basic diverse representation. Right, 609 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 1: you could easily make a character who doesn't look like 610 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:36,840 Speaker 1: you interact with a character who might look like you, 611 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: and that's your drama. Right. They are people, that is 612 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: That is the beauty of art. This is an art, right, 613 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 1: you know, I think beyond all of this. I know 614 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,399 Speaker 1: you encounter people of color. I know you encounter trans people, 615 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,720 Speaker 1: especially in the positions that these people are creating media. 616 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: You encounter so many types of people that the regular 617 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: people like me don't encounter. You probably encounter a transperson 618 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 1: before I encountered a transfer THEE And I do think 619 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 1: that this kind of diversity and showing these kinds of 620 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:20,319 Speaker 1: holistic stories as you talk about, matters so much more 621 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 1: on TV than say, compared to film, because that is 622 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 1: what is in everyone's homes and those are the stories 623 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:36,040 Speaker 1: that we gather around every night. And you know, film 624 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:40,320 Speaker 1: is important too, Obviously we've talked about representation in film before, 625 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,440 Speaker 1: but film takes so much more time and money to 626 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 1: produce and it's not as accessible for everybody. But I feel, like, 627 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 1: you know, Laverne Cox and Orange Is a New Black 628 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 1: had such a moment because everyone I knew was watching 629 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,440 Speaker 1: it and couldn't stop watching it, and they were tweeting 630 00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,919 Speaker 1: about and posting about it. If you weren't up to speed, 631 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,320 Speaker 1: it was all spoiler alerts and me like was social 632 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 1: life for a while. So TV is such such such 633 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 1: a powerful medium, and that drives on the point even 634 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,320 Speaker 1: more to not be dismissive if you're a creator, to 635 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,919 Speaker 1: just say, will just read and want to know doing 636 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:22,000 Speaker 1: my best? No, you're not right. I mean if people 637 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:26,120 Speaker 1: are out here and making sci fi films and sci 638 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: fi shows and and we've got X Men, mutants and 639 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,759 Speaker 1: and superheroes and all of these different characters and Game 640 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 1: of Thrones, right, and Game of Thrones, Like why can't 641 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:44,360 Speaker 1: we just I'm just asking for an office trans person 642 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,360 Speaker 1: to just walk in and share their story and that 643 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:50,839 Speaker 1: be it. I'm not asking for the world, and I'm 644 00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,400 Speaker 1: not apt, and I'm not necessarily asking you to definitely 645 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 1: include a trans person, right, but when you do include it, 646 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,839 Speaker 1: when you do include a trans person, at least make 647 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:08,440 Speaker 1: it real. At least make it a real role, a 648 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 1: real characterization. Well, speaking of that, then, Riquel, what would 649 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,920 Speaker 1: you recommend to our listeners as a show or a 650 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:24,279 Speaker 1: specific character or a film that is a good example 651 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,080 Speaker 1: of exactly what you're talking about, so that we can 652 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,400 Speaker 1: help educate our listeners even more as well. Well, I 653 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 1: would definitely say, first of all, if you have not 654 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 1: seen Orange as the New Black, come out from under 655 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: that rock and get into it. Laverne Cox knocks it 656 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 1: out of the ballpark. It's great. Transparent is fine. Um, 657 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:53,920 Speaker 1: I definitely think that it is a fairly good representation, 658 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,839 Speaker 1: not going into the fact that the sissman is playing 659 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:02,320 Speaker 1: a trans woman. And then I actually would recommend this 660 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:08,720 Speaker 1: movie called Gunhill Road. It starred a trans woman named 661 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:13,359 Speaker 1: Harmony Santana, young trans Latina actress. It was a very good, 662 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:18,480 Speaker 1: down to earth portrayal, and she was low income, but 663 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,680 Speaker 1: she wasn't a tragic character. So that was a very 664 00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 1: good movie. And I would recommend the The T Word 665 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,880 Speaker 1: documentary that Laverne Cox said a lot of Laverne Cox 666 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,120 Speaker 1: on this list. Clearly she's awesome, but it was it 667 00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,960 Speaker 1: was very great. It it really showed what it's like 668 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:40,120 Speaker 1: to be a transcene and and I would just say 669 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,239 Speaker 1: stay tuned. It seems like there there are a lot 670 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,439 Speaker 1: of good transnarratives that are coming out in the media soon. 671 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,759 Speaker 1: There's all that Jazz featuring Jazz Jennings, the fourteen year 672 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 1: old girl who actually is a spokesperson for I think 673 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:55,880 Speaker 1: It's Clean and Clear Now, and she was in this 674 00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,680 Speaker 1: huge media campaign for them, but that would be coming 675 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 1: out the summer. A lot of other things will be 676 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:06,239 Speaker 1: coming out this summer, so just stay tuned. Awesome, Well, 677 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,960 Speaker 1: thanks so much for talking to us, Riquel. So, uh, 678 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:11,160 Speaker 1: you know, we did mention a couple of times that 679 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 1: you're you're you're all over the internet, So could you 680 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,200 Speaker 1: tell our listeners where they can find out more about 681 00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:20,000 Speaker 1: your writing and what you're up to. Sure, So I 682 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:24,359 Speaker 1: have a blog called Consciousness Raising Dot Tumbler dot com. 683 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 1: I post all of my writings there. I've been writing 684 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:32,880 Speaker 1: on medium dot com also and the Huffington Posts. I 685 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:34,799 Speaker 1: have a blog on there, so there are a couple 686 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 1: of different things they are. And I also started a 687 00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 1: YouTube channel not so long ago called Beyond the Label, 688 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 1: and I talk a lot about trans issues, um, but 689 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:50,000 Speaker 1: I'm also talking about intersectional feminist issues too and race 690 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:51,759 Speaker 1: and all that good stuff, so you can check that 691 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,719 Speaker 1: out as well well. Raquel, thank you so much for 692 00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:58,680 Speaker 1: coming on the show and talking to us and hang 693 00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 1: out with us. And just ng Rad, thank you for 694 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:05,759 Speaker 1: having me. It's been fun. So now once again we 695 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,800 Speaker 1: want to hear from you on this topic of trans 696 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:13,239 Speaker 1: representations on TV. And I know that we have transgender 697 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,560 Speaker 1: men and women in our audience, and we especially would 698 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:18,960 Speaker 1: love to hear from you and get your first person 699 00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,040 Speaker 1: opinion on all of this stuff that's happening on the 700 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,719 Speaker 1: big screen and the small screen. And we want to 701 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,320 Speaker 1: know what kinds of characters that you're especially drawn to 702 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,640 Speaker 1: or characters that you would prefer to never ever see again. 703 00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,640 Speaker 1: Let us know. Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot 704 00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,360 Speaker 1: com is our email address. You can also tweet us 705 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,799 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff Podcasts or messages on Facebook, and we've 706 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:51,160 Speaker 1: got a couple of messages to share with you right now. Okay, Well, 707 00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:53,160 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Jessica about the interview 708 00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:57,560 Speaker 1: we did with Nina McLaughlin, author of Hammerhead and Carpenter Extraordinaire, 709 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,319 Speaker 1: and Jessica writes, it was so much fun to hear 710 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:05,760 Speaker 1: a positive, insightful woman talking about her experience. I heartily 711 00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,880 Speaker 1: agree with her about the unparalleled satisfaction attained by building 712 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,560 Speaker 1: something lasting. I grew up working in a construction company 713 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 1: and dancing classical ballet. These two disparate passions have given 714 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:22,720 Speaker 1: my life a highly gendered and deeply rewarding contrast. In college, 715 00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,320 Speaker 1: I even did a performance art piece about the tension 716 00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:29,120 Speaker 1: this has created in my concept of femaleness. After college, 717 00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:31,440 Speaker 1: I ran my own construction company and later my own 718 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,680 Speaker 1: ballet school. I now work in sales for an international 719 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:39,360 Speaker 1: adhesives and building materials manufacturing company. Being in the trades 720 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,160 Speaker 1: in many different positions has led me to conceal my 721 00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,160 Speaker 1: gender at times for various reasons. As a boss, I 722 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,279 Speaker 1: hired a gender nonconforming person as a helper, as well 723 00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,279 Speaker 1: as a CIS gendered person, which is made for a 724 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:54,720 Speaker 1: wonderfully diverse crew. I have done everything from excavation to roofing, 725 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,520 Speaker 1: masonry and tile, electrical plumbing, sheet rock and taping, siding, 726 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:02,960 Speaker 1: framing and struck shoral renovation, mostly because I enjoyed working 727 00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,600 Speaker 1: with my father more than my brothers did, and chose 728 00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,400 Speaker 1: to go to work with him year after year. Eventually 729 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,800 Speaker 1: he had me work as a sort of foreman, overseeing 730 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,080 Speaker 1: projects and running crews, managing subs when he couldn't be there. 731 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,480 Speaker 1: I later learned about landscaping and agriculture, doing both for 732 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,239 Speaker 1: work because I enjoy working with my hands, working hard, 733 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,760 Speaker 1: and making things beautiful. I now use both my undergrad 734 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,799 Speaker 1: degree in international comparative studies and my experience in construction 735 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,840 Speaker 1: in my current job as an architectural sales rep. Although 736 00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,680 Speaker 1: I missed the deep satisfaction and accomplishment, not to mention 737 00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,840 Speaker 1: physical exhaustion construction always gave me. And She goes on 738 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,560 Speaker 1: to say that she agrees with Nina, and she loves 739 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,680 Speaker 1: the Japanese pulsaw too. But one of the big problems 740 00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:45,200 Speaker 1: for women entering the field is the way the tools 741 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,600 Speaker 1: are designed. Women's hands being smaller than men's, making most 742 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,560 Speaker 1: power tools very difficult to use, but your forearms and 743 00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,759 Speaker 1: hands gained strength as you struggle, and if you persevere, 744 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,000 Speaker 1: you will succeed. No shame in buying the fourteen point 745 00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:01,359 Speaker 1: four vault drill instead of the ubiquitous eighteen volt. If 746 00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 1: you're swinging that thing over your head and hanging up 747 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:05,840 Speaker 1: a stud wall ten hours a day, it's got to 748 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,400 Speaker 1: be comfortable. She says. I could go on and on, 749 00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:11,640 Speaker 1: but you've made me so happy with your work. I'm 750 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:13,960 Speaker 1: a longtime listener and now my nine year old daughter 751 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:18,000 Speaker 1: is a fan too, So thank you so much, Jessica. Well, 752 00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,359 Speaker 1: I've got a letter here from Matt also about our 753 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:25,760 Speaker 1: episode with Carpenter plus writer Nina McLaughlin, and he writes, 754 00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,319 Speaker 1: thanks for the wonderful podcast. I've had my eyes open 755 00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,000 Speaker 1: to so much. I'd never have considered it all before 756 00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:35,200 Speaker 1: I started listening. I was delighted to hear your last 757 00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:39,719 Speaker 1: episode about would Work. Nina's story sounds very familiar. I too, 758 00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,359 Speaker 1: found out I love would work more than my web 759 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,880 Speaker 1: development day job after going on a brief training course 760 00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:49,000 Speaker 1: at a local castle. And yes I did not misspeak, 761 00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:51,760 Speaker 1: he said a local castle. Matt. I have a million 762 00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:56,279 Speaker 1: follow up questions for you now anyway, just to shout 763 00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:58,960 Speaker 1: out if any listeners are thinking about trying this, I 764 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,640 Speaker 1: would highly recommend and Paul Sellers online video tutorials. He 765 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,880 Speaker 1: is a true gentleman and highly skilled. He's dedicating his 766 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,480 Speaker 1: later life to training people in hand tool would work 767 00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:13,200 Speaker 1: and strongly encourages ladies and children to the craft. He's 768 00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,160 Speaker 1: recently found the internet can help him in this endeavor, 769 00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,120 Speaker 1: and perhaps your listeners would like to try some of 770 00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:21,040 Speaker 1: the free videos he supplies or read his extensive blog 771 00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,640 Speaker 1: on the topic of woodwork. So Matt says you can 772 00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,840 Speaker 1: go to Paul Sellers dot com for his blog or 773 00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:32,960 Speaker 1: Woodworking Masterclasses dot com for his online classes. Keep up 774 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,399 Speaker 1: the great work. I look forward to being educated through 775 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:39,759 Speaker 1: many more episodes. Well, thanks Matt for the recommendations, and 776 00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,680 Speaker 1: thanks to everyone who's written in to us Mom stuff 777 00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:44,720 Speaker 1: at house. Stuff works dot Com is our email address 778 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:46,680 Speaker 1: and for links to all of our social media as 779 00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:50,560 Speaker 1: well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts, including 780 00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,960 Speaker 1: this one. With links so you can follow Raquel head 781 00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:56,879 Speaker 1: on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com. 782 00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,440 Speaker 1: More on this and thousands of other topics, visit how 783 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:04,480 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com.