1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: Jodi Arius convicted in the murder of her lover Travis 2 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: Alexandra brutally murdered so many stab wounds they really couldn't 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: be counted. Um somewhere between twenty seven and twenty nine 4 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: stab wounds, and then shot in the head, his body 5 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: left to decay naked in his shower stall. We are 6 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: waiting the outcome of a Jodi Aris appeal in Arizona. 7 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: We ain't heard the last of her yet. Crime stories 8 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. What's going on? Our friend of ours 9 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: is dead in his bedroom. We hadn't heard from for 10 00:00:52,800 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: a while. Blood. I didn't know when that I. Can 11 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: you give you the song to someone who went in there? Can? Yes? 12 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: Please name? Hello? Hi? So, what's going on? He's dead? 13 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 1: He's in his bedroom, Okay, in the shower. Okay, how 14 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: did this happen? Do you have any idea? We have 15 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: no idea. Everyone's been wondering about him for She said 16 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:19,839 Speaker 1: that there's blood, So is it coming from his head? 17 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: Did he? It's all over the place? Hold on just 18 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: a moment. Okay, you're a good friend of if Travis's Sam? Okay? 19 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: PSI has been depressed it all thinking about getting suicide 20 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: anything like that. I don't think he's been He's been 21 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: really depressed because he broke up with this girl and 22 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: he was upset about that, But I don't think he 23 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: would actually kill himself over that. Has he been threatened 24 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: by anyone recently? He has? He hasn't. He has an 25 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: ex girlfriend's been bothering him and following him in, flashing 26 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: tires and things like that. And do you know the 27 00:01:55,360 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: ex girl friend man um Her name is Jody's Jodi Arius. 28 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: Is her name a name that will live in infamy? 29 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: I mean, as he Grace. This is crime stories. Thank 30 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: you for being with us. Jodi Arius convicted in the 31 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: murder of her lover, Travis Alexandra, even converting to Mormon, 32 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: the Mormon religion to please her lover, Travis Alexander, a 33 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: devout Mormon. He ends up dead, his body decomposing in 34 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: the shower stall with about twenty eight to twenty nine 35 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: stab wounds. Nobody was ever sure how many, because of 36 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: overlapping stab wounds and a gunshot wound to the head 37 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: in the prime of his life. Why. Although the state 38 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,000 Speaker 1: doesn't have to prove motivation, it was speculated because he 39 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: insisted on breaking up with her and dating a new woman, 40 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: actually planning a trip with a new person. But as 41 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: I said, it ain't over yet right now, an appeal 42 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: hangs in the balance with Jodi Arius. As we learned 43 00:02:55,440 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: disturbing new information regarding Jody Air is spending the holidays 44 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: with her boyfriend behind bars, what with me right now? 45 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,640 Speaker 1: And All Star Panels kicking it off with Kurt Nurmi, 46 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: that is Jodi Aris's former defense lawyer and author I've 47 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: trapped with miss Arius. I guess that title says it all. 48 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: Bobby Chicone, friend and colleague, former special agent FBI and 49 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: star of the FB watch series Curse of Akacre. Doctor 50 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: Karen Start, renowned psychologists, joining me out of Manhattan. You 51 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: can find her at Karen Stark dot com. Forensic expert, 52 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jackson State University and author of Blood Beneath 53 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: My Feet on Amazon. If that title doesn't make you 54 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: want to read it, I don't know what would. Joseph 55 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan joining me right now to Radar Online dot 56 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: com investigative reporter Alexis terres Chuck. Alexis terres Check, I 57 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: can always count on you to do some digging. How 58 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: the hey did you find out that Joe? What is 59 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: wrong with men? Why do they Why are they attracted 60 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: to Jodi Arius. Look, I'm not saying she's not pretty, 61 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: not to me, because I know she's a cold blooded 62 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: killer and she's crag gray. But a lot of men 63 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: think she's attractive. They think she's got a pretty face, 64 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: they think she's got a great body. Is that all 65 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 1: they think? That's a question for the shrink, because clearly 66 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: Alexis Terres, even from behind bars, she can lure men. 67 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: What do you mean she had holidays with her boyfriends, 68 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: her lovers. What So, according to the records that I 69 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: obtained from the Arizona Department of Corrections, in the last 70 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: three months, she has spent hours and hours and hours 71 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: with this gentleman named Benjamin Ernst Ben and Jody met 72 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: And in fact, she had hatched this plot while she 73 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: was behind bars to marry Ben and she had even 74 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: talked about trying to get pregnant by him, thinking that 75 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: that would somehow get her out of jail. So explain 76 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: to me what will wait, Alexis. I'm trying from the 77 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: fire hydrant here. It's too too much, too fast. Did 78 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: you just say get pregnant behind bars? I did, okay, 79 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: I thought that's what you said. Now you have a baby, right, 80 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 1: alexis a beautiful baby boy? Correct? You do know where 81 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: babies come from? Right? So how is Jody Arius going 82 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: to get a bun in the oven behind bars? Not? 83 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: Under is our Pio is still in power out there 84 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: is not in power of the jail anymore. Who's the 85 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: Knie Sheriff? Paul Pinzone? Oh yeah, I love paulpins on this, right, 86 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: m Paul Pinzone. Paul Pinzone is not going to allow 87 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: anybody to get pregnant behind bars. I don't believe. So 88 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: explain to me Alexis to rush, like, how can Jody 89 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: Arius plot to have a baby from behind gail house walls? Well, 90 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: this is just sort of one of Jody's hairbrand schemes. 91 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 1: I think she thought maybe somehow they could smuggle some 92 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: sperm into the jail and what happened. Jody's crazy, and 93 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: that's what she was hoping that could happen. Right, Maybe 94 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: she was thinking it would be immaculate conception. Where did 95 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: you get that information? How do you know that she 96 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: wrote this in a letter to her. I believe that 97 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: we're in mitigation specialist Maria de la Rossa. She wrote 98 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: in a letter that you know she was pregnant mate 99 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: with Ben's baby, then maybe this would help her in 100 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: her sense. Okay, as much as I really want to 101 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 1: go to doctor Karen starts psychologists joining us, I'm sorry, Karen, 102 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: but I've got to go to Kurt n Armie Arius, 103 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: former defense lawyer who went through so much trying to 104 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: defend her a trial, got a lot of hate mail, 105 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: made a lot of enemies in his efforts to defend 106 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: Jodi Arius, ending up with a big kick in the teeth. 107 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: Kurt Narmie, Now I'm beginning to understand your title of 108 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: your book, Trapped with miss Arius. What do you make 109 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: of her scheme? I wouldn't even say that it's far fetched, 110 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: because if anybody could do what Arias could to mitigate 111 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: her sentence by getting pregnant with her old boyfriend from 112 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: behind bars, what do you make of that, Kurt? Well, look, 113 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: I think it's consistent with the plan I talked in 114 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: my book about this. Back then, it was more related 115 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: to money and getting attention from may of getting their money, 116 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: and this may be more of the same, or it 117 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: maybe some plots or get out or some sort of scheme. 118 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: And she's always got some sort of scheme. She feels 119 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: like she can play men with. And beyond that, obviously, 120 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: miss de LaRosa is not her mitigation specialist. She was 121 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: her mitigation specialists. So she's got these people that she 122 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: can convince of her victimhood and get them to advance 123 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: her agenda. Well, we know that Jodi Arius can't spin 124 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: a yarn? Does anybody remember her Ninja story? Listen, I 125 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,559 Speaker 1: turn around. Two people are One was a guy, one's 126 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: a girl. I couldn't tell it at first, but I 127 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: could just see one was a girl. I assume that 128 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: there was a guys. They're build and then their voices 129 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: if you're wearing maybe jeans. One wasn't all black, one 130 00:07:53,200 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: was in jeans. Don't say anything? What words did you hear? Um? 131 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: Who is that? Who is that? I thought he was 132 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: by himself or alone or something. He was like shut 133 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: just finished it. And and Travis was screaming the whole time. 134 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: He wasn't screaming like a girl. He was just like 135 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: like he was in pain, like he was like shocked. 136 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: You know. He took off and he's still anyway stopped 137 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: to Oh, Charles. He was he was still conscious and 138 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: still alive. She's actually crying here and start Karen. She's 139 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: so convincing that when she tells the police during interrogation 140 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: that two ninjas dressed all in black broke in while 141 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: she's I guess, still having her sex marathon with Travis Alexander, 142 00:08:57,760 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: trying to convince him not to take another woman to Camcoon. 143 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: These two ninjas dressed all in black break in, kill 144 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: Travis and she escapes and Travis is screaming and did 145 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: you hear go like this? Oh the whole time? And 146 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: she ran away. She's actually crying as she recounts the story. 147 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: It's a big fat lie that didn't happen. What is 148 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 1: wrong with her? She's a pathological liar, and so when 149 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: she tells these stories, Nancy, to her, they're real. She's 150 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: reliving what she sees in her mind. And she can 151 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: cry over anything. She's a most nipulative person. We know that. 152 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: So she comes up with lie after lie, and it 153 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: doesn't even cross her mind that maybe this won't be 154 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: very believable because she just told about ninjas and now 155 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: she's changing the story again, and Jody Arius will say 156 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,839 Speaker 1: anything to get attention and try and get people to 157 00:09:56,240 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: empathize with her, see if she could change her sentence. 158 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: In love with her really good at that time stories 159 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Aaron, you told me that you lived 160 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: with Travis during the time he dated Jodi Arius. What 161 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: was that relationship, Like, what did you observe, if anything? 162 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: You know, when they first met, Travis was on cloud dying. 163 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: Here was a very attractive young lady that he that 164 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: he had met at that convention in Las Vegas. They 165 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: shared a lot of similar interests and similar passions, real 166 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: drive and ambition in life, and so he thought he 167 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: had found the one. And at the beginning of the relationship, 168 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 1: everything seemed like it was going to go perfectly and 169 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 1: possibly go all the way. You know, things deteriorated quickly. 170 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: There were lots of trust issues and oh, right there, 171 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: right there, Aaron, let's not put perfume on the pig. 172 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: What do you mean by there were a lot of 173 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: trust issues. Well, you know, she's admitted in some of 174 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 1: her statements that she would go through his emails, his 175 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: social media accounts, his text messages. There was a time 176 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: when they were on vacation together and he was a 177 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 1: sleeper in the shower and a text message came in 178 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: from another girl, and she responded to that girl as 179 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 1: if she was Travis, telling her how happy that he 180 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: was to be with her, and she's the best thing 181 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: that ever happened, And in an attempt to scare the 182 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: scroll away from Travis, Okay, what a whacka doodle. Okay, 183 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: So she gets the now deceased lover Travis Alexander's cell phone, 184 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: that's me speaking with Travis's friend Aaron Dewey and starts 185 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: responding to a woman that had texted Travis Alexander as 186 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: if she's Travis. Now, I want you to hear speaking 187 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: of tall tales, take a listen to what now? I remember, 188 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: Keep in mind Arius has said to ninjas broke in 189 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: Travis's home while she's there having a sex marathon with 190 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: Travis Alexander, and they slaughtered him. And she manages somehow 191 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: James Bond sneaky snake disappear, get away from the killer ninjas. 192 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: But wait a minute, not so fast. What about this 193 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: household absolutely nowhere near Mason was near No Phoenix, I 194 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: wasn't even close to him. You prove he with her. 195 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 1: I wasn't there. I was not a Travis's house was 196 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 1: not what. Okay, wait a minute, Bobby Chicon from our 197 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: special agent FBI's current star of the FB watch series 198 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: Curse of Agacre, which is crazy in itself, but that's 199 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: the whole other can of worms, Bobby Chacone, the Curse 200 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: of Agacre. Didn't she just say two ninjas broke in 201 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: and murdered Travis and she managed it to sneak away. 202 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: But wait a minute, she also said she was nowhere 203 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: near there, and with a straight face, because I've watched 204 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: the interrogation many many times, she looks right at them 205 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 1: and says, no, I wasn't there, and then suddenly the 206 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: ninja story comes up. What happened? Bobby? Yeah, I think 207 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: what she did was she her initial lie, you know, 208 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: was to say I wasn't there. And if you couldn't 209 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: excuse me, if you listen to that, if you listen 210 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: to her response saying I wasn't anywhere near Mesa, that's 211 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: not the way a normal person would respond. A normal 212 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: person would say I was in San Diego, or I 213 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: was in Redding, California, or I was in New York. 214 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: They wouldn't automatically say I was nowhere near Mesa. This 215 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,599 Speaker 1: didn't sing herself already from it is a sign that 216 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: she her mind is working to distance herself from that 217 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 1: crime scene which she knows she was at. So that 218 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,199 Speaker 1: response in itself, not saying I was in Ridding or 219 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: I was home with my grandparents in California, rather I 220 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: was nowhere near Mesa, would indicate to me as an 221 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 1: interrogator that she's lying. And then, so what happens is 222 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: that's the initial response, I was nowhere near there. That's 223 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: the initial lie in her mind. She probably starts already 224 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: analyzing that, saying, there's somehow going to figure out that 225 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: I was there. There's somehow going to prove be able 226 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: to prove that I was at his house somehow, So 227 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: she adjusts her lie on the flaw. Yeah, Bobby, didn't 228 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: you notice? And they said the interrogator said, well, what 229 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: if I could prove that you were there? There was 230 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: a long pause. There was a very long pause, and 231 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: I'm guarantee there's some rapid eye blinking right there. So 232 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: what do you do as a defense lawyer when your client, Remember, 233 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: the appeal is happening right now, The appeal is hanging 234 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: in the balance in Arizona. What do you do with 235 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: a client who first says I'm nowhere near it and 236 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: then says there was a home invasion by ninjas. Where 237 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: else can you go? Listen to kirk Nermy, the man himself, 238 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: trying to dig his client out of the hole she 239 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: dug with her own teeth. Something did happen in this 240 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: moment of time. And the point of this, I think 241 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: is what this evidence shows you is that either what 242 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: happened is that Jody Airis defended herself and didn't know 243 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: when to stop, or she gave in to a sudden 244 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: heat of passion from a fight that began up in 245 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: that bathroom, and that what she did she did under 246 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: that sudden heat of passion. Demonstrative of that is this idea. 247 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: She doesn't remember any of it. So what I'm saying 248 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: to you, ladies and gentlemen, is, ultimately, if miss Arius 249 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: is guilty of any crime at all, it is the 250 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: crime of manslaughter. You're hearing kirk Nurmi trying to make 251 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: a silk purse out of a cow's ear. He's got 252 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: a client that he's got to defend. The judges ordered 253 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: him to use all of his talents, all of his education, 254 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: all of his expertise to defend jodi Arius. And he 255 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: gets in the ring and he tries. So what do 256 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: you do with the client that's given multiple stories, none 257 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: of them can coincide with the other. Kirk Nurmi joining me, 258 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: author of Trapped with miss Arius, a renowned defense attorney, 259 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: defended Jodi Arius. I've told you the story before, Kirk. 260 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: I had a judge, Judge Alverson, who would tell every jury, 261 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: it is your duty to make all witnesses speak the truth, 262 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: impugning perjury on no one. In other words, don't assume 263 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: witnesses are a line because their story doesn't jeehoss with 264 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: some other witness. Maybe they can both be telling the truth. 265 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: Maybe at one had a different vantage point, Maybe one 266 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: heard something the other one didn't, and the stories are 267 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: slightly different. But Arias, really, her stories are so widely 268 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,959 Speaker 1: divergent there's no way to cobble them together to make 269 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: a beautiful quilt. It ain't gonna happen. So you went 270 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 1: with self defense. How difficult was it to represent Jody Arius? Well, 271 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: it was very difficult. And in terms of we went 272 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: with self defense. Remember the client guides the story. She 273 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: has a six Amendment right to get on that stand. 274 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: We saw her soaking up the media attention in that 275 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: eighteen days, and she wanted to make the claim of 276 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: self defense. But you know, since you can't prove that 277 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: a lie like you were just explaining in your story, 278 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 1: you have to let her get on the stand and 279 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: say her piece because it is ultimately her life that 280 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: is in jeopardy. Well, you're right about that. You cannot 281 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: stop a client that wants to take the stand. Jo Scott, Morgan, 282 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jackson State University, author Blood Beneath My Feet 283 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: on Amazon. Joe Scott, when you hear someone like Jody Arius, 284 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: I just can't help but think that you're chomping at 285 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: the bit because you know, somebody that talks that much 286 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: has got to have left a trail of evidence a 287 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: mile wide. Yeah, you're right, Nancy, And for her, she 288 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 1: backtracked so many times and then offered these these alternatives, 289 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: you know, the ninjas, all these sorts of things, and 290 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: I think that you know, you kind of captured it 291 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 1: there in the moment when she went to that pregnant 292 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 1: pause where the police officer said, hey, listen, I can 293 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: actually prove that you were there. You know, she's thinking 294 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,719 Speaker 1: in her mind, oh my god, have I stepped off 295 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 1: into this thing? Because now, even if she doesn't know 296 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 1: anything about forensics, she knows that she was there. And 297 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: as our old friend Lecard said over a hundred years ago, 298 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: every contact leaves a trace. She has left something behind 299 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: at that scene that is physically going to tie her 300 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: to that event, and not just that, as we find out, 301 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 1: as the timeline goes on, there's this connectivity with her 302 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: with these timelines, moving about buying gas cans and all 303 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 1: these sorts of things that kind of tie her back 304 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: to these events. It's a web that she just could 305 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 1: not escape from. Prime stories with Nancy Grace, Well, there's 306 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: a lot of forensics suggesting that I was, you know, 307 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: in his house. Of the evidence that they prevent presented 308 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,959 Speaker 1: to me, I was asked the question, if you were 309 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: presented this evidence and you were a third party, what 310 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: would you think? And you know, I need to be 311 00:19:55,760 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: honest in it. The evidence is very compelling, but it 312 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: proves that I committed a murder. None of it proves 313 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: that I committed a crime. What it does substantiate is 314 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: what I did tell detectives. Did I have to ask 315 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: you this. Did you kill Travis Holds? Absolutely not. Now, 316 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: I had no part in it. Did he have any 317 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: enemies at all? To my knowledge? Now he was. He 318 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: had a strong personality, but he was very well liked 319 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: and loved. Um. I just can't think of a single soul. 320 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: So you had nothing to do with Travis und Alexander's 321 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: nothing to do with it, nothing what soever. She's adamant 322 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: I had nothing to do with it. At this moment, 323 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: her appeal hangs and the bounce. Oh oh wait, take 324 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: a listen to this. You're the person who actually slid 325 00:20:53,840 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: mister Alexander's throat from ear to ear. Yes, wait a minute, 326 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: what alexas terrestchuk It's something wrong in my eye? Have 327 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: bab because I just sort of say I had nothing 328 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: to do with it, no part of it. And then 329 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 1: did you slice his float? Yes, it just comes out 330 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: alexas Terrestchak. Now, with all that in mind, you're telling 331 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: me that some guy is visiting her behind bars and 332 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: is in love with her. He is for years and years, 333 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: and it's consistent. He spends his holidays with her. He 334 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: was their Veterans Day. Now you get a day off 335 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: from work to think the people that have saved our 336 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: lives in our country. And he travels and spends from 337 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 1: eight am to four pm in the prison with Jody 338 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 1: and does this like and I believe according to your research, 339 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 1: he also spent Labor Day with her. He did. Yeah, 340 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: he spends holidays with her. Weekends too. He'll spend entire 341 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: weekends throughout the months with her, a Saturday and a 342 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: Sunday again eight am to four pm. One day. I 343 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: think he got there at nine am. He's a little 344 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,479 Speaker 1: bit late that day, but he spends the entire day 345 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: with her, the whole weekend. This on top of the 346 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: fact that her appeal is very active at this moment. 347 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: We're waiting to hear from the court. Now we learn 348 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: in a headline that Jackie, thank you so much for 349 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: lifting my spirits by giving me this headline. Jodi arias 350 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: new artwork website is now launched and live. It starts 351 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: like this Happy twenty twenty quick post to let you 352 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: know Jody Jodie's new artwork website is now launched and 353 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 1: live at art by Jodi Arias dot com. Be sure 354 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: to check out everything that's available. Limited edition prints, original 355 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: colored pencil pieces with an extensive archive section. I bet 356 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: they are archive because you know nobody actually somebody is 357 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: buying it. Now, a lot of it looks like she 358 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: thumbs through and I'll have to go to you on this, doctor, 359 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: Karen Start, a psychologists joining me from Manhattan at karenstart 360 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: dot com. It looks to me like she thumbs through 361 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 1: magazines and traces pictures and then colors them in. Now, 362 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: I'm certainly no art credit. You know that about me, 363 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: Karen Start. But I'm pretty sure she's tracing out of 364 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: a magazine. But there's only people who are fascinated by 365 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: the macabre, right Nancy. So they love the idea that 366 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: because that's how you say that word. I've always wandered. No, 367 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: wait a minute, but what is wrong? No offense? Bobby Chicoon, 368 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: Kirk Nurmi and Joseph Scott Morgan? What is wrong with men? Like? 369 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: There's not enough women? Jackie single people? Yep, she's raising 370 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: both hands. What I'm saying is aren't there enough women 371 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: on the outside? Do they have to go to a 372 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: convicted killer that slides her last lover, well that I 373 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: know of her last lover, throwt ear to ear? What why? 374 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: What is wrong with them, Kara. They are tracted to 375 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: the fact that she's notorious. That's the appeal. Nancy. Women 376 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: do it too. Women write to men who have been 377 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: in jail. Look at all the women that were in 378 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: love with Ted Bundy. There's an appeal to these guys. 379 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: They don't They don't want to believe that this beautiful 380 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 1: women who can cry at the drop of a hat, 381 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 1: actually is capable of murdering or anyway, she would not 382 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: murder them. Maybe she would murder them. They don't understand 383 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: in the mind of somebody who's a psychopath that this 384 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: person can't love, that no one is real to them, 385 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: and they find it extremely appealing. You know, Alexis Toschi. 386 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: As much as I'd love to keep talking about Jodi 387 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: Arias getting pregnant behind bars, can I ask you who 388 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: are these people that publicized quote we are team Jody 389 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: and we will with will underlined, we will be victorious. 390 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,239 Speaker 1: Who are these people? These are? This is the craziest thing. 391 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: These people have been supporting Jody since the beginning. They 392 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: are random, I mean, for lack of better words, they're 393 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: random Internet trolls like you know, in the beginning, when 394 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 1: Jody was going through the trial, they were raising money 395 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: for her. They kind of figured out that you can't 396 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: give money to a criminal and she can't profit off things. 397 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: But they've raised money quote unquote for her defense and 398 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: it's up to it like almost I think one hundred 399 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,719 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. It has really twindled lately though there were 400 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: I think there were only eight hundred dollars in donations 401 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: made in twenty nineteen. But these are people from all 402 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 1: over the world that believe that Jody is innocent. They 403 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 1: believe that what she did was in self defense because 404 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: Travis Alexander was a pedophile and he wait who wa 405 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 1: wa wa wa wa wait wait wait, Kurt Narmie, please 406 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: help me because now my chest is hurting. Thanks Alexis 407 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: for the chess pain. Kurt Narmy with me Arius's former 408 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: lawyer or author of Trapped with miss Arius on Amazon 409 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: Kirk when Alexis terress, Chuck Alexis, I'm afraid you just 410 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: sold your soul to the devil by putting the name 411 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 1: Travis Alexander in the same sentence with the pedophile Kirk, 412 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: Was there ever evidence that substantial evidence that Travis Alexander 413 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: had ever been a pedophile I mean, I know that 414 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 1: I think some of his underwear had a superhero. I 415 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: can't remember how it went now, but I thought that 416 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: was really unfounded. Oh look, it goes back to what 417 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: I said before. Look, you know, testimony is evidence, and 418 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: a client, even irregardless of their attorney's advice, can go 419 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 1: out and tell the story they want to tell unless 420 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: that attorney can prove it wrong. So its ills advices. 421 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: It might be miss Arius was able to present that 422 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 1: argument despite a lack of actual evidence in favor of 423 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 1: that in making that connection. Well, as a matter of fact, 424 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: take a listen to this. Travis was not a pedophile. 425 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: That was just a story that she was told to 426 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: come up with that would help her in her defense 427 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: for the murder of Travis. Her father never molest her, 428 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: that her laid a hand on her sexually in any way. 429 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: That was also just a story that she came up 430 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: with that would hopefully help hands for murder and get 431 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,159 Speaker 1: her off of the charges. Jody never thought that she 432 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: ever would have been charged with these charges because of 433 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: those allegations. That's Fromwriter online dot Com speaking was Donovan 434 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: bearing you know to you kirk Nermy I want to 435 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: follow up and I don't even like talking about the 436 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: fact that Travis Alexander was never a pedophile at all. Ever, 437 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: that was a story fabricated by air Yes to try 438 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: to help her defense, to get the focus off her 439 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: and on him, the innocent victim. That's right, and that's 440 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: far from the truth. As a matter of fact, we 441 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: did every thing. I did everything I could to not 442 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: have her advance that story. There was no evidence behind it. 443 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: But miss Arius and we've talked a little bit about 444 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: her being a sociopath and putting things forward. She has 445 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: her way, she has her ideas, and that's what she's 446 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: going to follow, regardless of the cost on humanity crime stories. 447 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: With Nancy Grace, when was the last time he saw Travis? 448 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: Was it three days ago? Um? That do you guys 449 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: were waking this off that? But I mean, satis, they 450 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: want to know what m last time I saw him? Was? 451 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: What part the last time Ember seen him? The last 452 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: third day? MEI saw him last Tuesday, on our last Monday. 453 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: She talked to him last Monday. Okay, and everyone is 454 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: out of the house. There's no one else in the house. No, 455 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: no one's in the house. And what is your name? 456 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: My name is Michelle. Um, I need to ask a 457 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: friend from being here. I'm giving the phone to me. Okay, Um, Hi, 458 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: Hi business partner Okay, and this is okay. The hub 459 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: is in his bedroom. Yeah, you were hearing part of 460 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: the nine one one call made by Travis Alexander's friends 461 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: when they had not seen or heard from him in days. 462 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: I want you to hear the rest of that conversation. Listen. UM. 463 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: I didn't go in, but from what I heard, his 464 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,959 Speaker 1: dreammate went in. They fled in his bedroom behind the door. Uh. 465 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,479 Speaker 1: And then he said it's all over. And then they 466 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: went in the bathroom and heath in his shower. Ok. 467 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: And his his um, his bedroom is where in the house. 468 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: It's upstairs. Um. And if you go up the stairs, 469 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: it's on the left. It's the first door on your left. 470 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: It's the only door on your left. And um, and 471 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: it's just a big master sweet s bedream Monday. And 472 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: she's talking to his friend right now. And there's a 473 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: girl that spends stocking him and see and she's trying 474 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: and he's trying to Uh, you might know some information. 475 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: I hope my phone doesn't die. My Emma on like 476 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: one bar of statary Okay, Well, I'm just gonna keep 477 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: you on the phone until officers are right be there. 478 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: Officers are paramedics arrival. Okay, okay, I've been keeping hare 479 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: of the soone Travis Alexander brutally murderred so many stab 480 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: wounds they really couldn't be counted. Um somewhere between twenty 481 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: seven and twenty nine stab wounds and then shot in 482 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: the head, his body left to decay naked in his 483 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 1: shower stall. I mean, I see, Grays, this is crime stories. 484 00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us right now. Well, you 485 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: are awaiting the outcome of a Jodi Aris appeal in 486 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: Arizona with me Alexis Treschak Radar online dot com investigative 487 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: reporter who has gone and done her homework and found 488 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: out that Jodi Arius is actually having secret prison visits 489 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: with her boyfriend, that convict to kill her, spending holidays 490 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: and weekends with her old lover, and he travels to 491 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 1: come and see her. Alexis, how far does he traveled 492 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: to get to Arias on weekends? I believe he lives 493 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: about four hours away, that it is a four hour 494 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: drive each way for him, so he spends he must 495 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: spend the night near the prison. But it is a 496 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: very because he's there two days in a row. He 497 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: never just comes for one day. He's there and you 498 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: know who else he was just joined with. Jody has 499 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: random visitors. She has these supporters that have been her 500 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 1: friends for all these years. But her family had not 501 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: visited her in a very long time. I've been I 502 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: check on this, I report on this every quarter, really, 503 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: and nobody from her family had visited her. All of 504 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: a sudden, her mom and her sister and her brother 505 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: visited her, and the boyfriend was there at the same time. 506 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: Who knows. They maybe had a wedding behind Barlex terres 507 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: Right now, the appeal is pending. Tell me about the 508 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: appeal and the status of the appeal. So Jody has 509 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: filed has some OA. Are you back on a first 510 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: name basis with Jodi arias you calling her by Jody 511 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: this and Jody that. What do you think she can 512 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: invite you over for dinner when she gets out, or 513 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: invite me to the prison because she had some fancy 514 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: rost beef for Christmas dinner. Maybe she'll invite you to 515 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: the wedding. But go ahead, plays I want to hear 516 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: about the roast beef too, But go ahead. She has 517 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: a new attorneys. They filed an appeal for her. What 518 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: they are claiming is not that she didn't kill Travis Alexander, 519 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,520 Speaker 1: but that the prosecutor acted so poorly during the trial, 520 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: and that because of that, it created a media circus, 521 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:58,719 Speaker 1: and the media circus unfairly influenced the trial. And they 522 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: did not mention you by name, but they did talk. 523 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: They were talking about you. Okay, wait a minute, I 524 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: didn't know I was dragged into this. What do I 525 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: have to do with it? It is all your fault. 526 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: You were the one that you were there every single 527 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: day making everybody in this whole in herr country care 528 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,560 Speaker 1: about this case, talking about it NonStop. Don't remember Jodi 529 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: arias One gave you the finger and then also slit 530 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: made this slid across her throat. Wait wait, wait, wait, 531 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: I remember her shape. I remember her shooting a bird 532 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: at me. If she slid her throat at me, I 533 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: must have blocked it. Okay, maybe it scared me, alexis 534 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: what I don't remember that part? Yeah, that happened. She 535 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: made a motion like a cutting across her throat motion 536 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: with her finger. Oh right, right, right now. You know, 537 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: Kurt Nermie, if only that could have been brought in 538 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: as a similar transaction. Okay, Kurt Nermie with me Aria's 539 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: former defense attorney, Trapped with Miss Arias is his new book. 540 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: You can find it on Amazon. Kurt Nermie, did you 541 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: know your client gave me the thing you're during the trial? 542 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: You know what? I'm sorry, Nancy, I had my focus 543 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: on other things. But oh, I bet you did. Let 544 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: me tell you. I mean, but what do you make 545 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: of the lover visiting driving? Um? Okay, I just got 546 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 1: to ask you, Kirk, did she ever come on to you? 547 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 1: Don't lie to me. I know you're, you know, happily 548 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 1: in your relationship and all that, But did she ever 549 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: come on to you? Don't? Why do you know? Because 550 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: because you know what, she has an innate ability. Hang 551 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: on a minute, she has an innate ability to test 552 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: the waters. She knows which she immediately senses, which men 553 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: are subject to manipulation and which aren't. So she focuses 554 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,840 Speaker 1: on those that will drive four hours and spend the 555 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: entire day in prison with her, and doesn't pay mind 556 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,479 Speaker 1: to those she knows who won't fall for that crack. 557 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: I think you're trying to tell me she didn't. But 558 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: you know, to Bobby Chicone joining me, former special agent FBI, 559 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 1: current star of FBS series Curse of Aqacre, Bobby, come on, 560 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 1: you know the deal. When you don't know a horse, 561 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: look at her track record. That's how Areas operates. If 562 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 1: she's got a man, she will turn him come hell 563 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 1: or high water. Bobby, Yeah, I mean, that's one thing 564 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: you do look at. I mean, obviously you can't bring 565 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,800 Speaker 1: it into a trials, but it's something that's that's you know, 566 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 1: Germaine to an investigation. When we're looking at someone's background, 567 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,800 Speaker 1: whether they're capable of doing something like this or not 568 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 1: as you thought. You look into the background, you look 569 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: into their previous relationships. Do they have a pattern of 570 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 1: behavior that could have carried forth into the current situation 571 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 1: that we're investigating. So sure, all of that, and when 572 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: you find somebody like this, usually when they're this level 573 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: of crazy, they've had past relationships that have either been 574 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 1: on this level or leading to this level. And so 575 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: those types that you find ex boyfriends or ex girlfriends 576 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,399 Speaker 1: who are no longer in the picture but have said 577 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 1: I ran away from that person astaf I could when 578 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: this stuff started happening. So these patterns of people that 579 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: are this obsessive, they're very hard to hide, and so 580 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: oftentimes they're very obvious in the backgrounds, and then they 581 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,320 Speaker 1: lead you, and they can lead you to things in 582 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 1: the current situation. That's why they're relevant to an investigation. 583 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 1: Jety Arias can certainly point the finger listen. Three years 584 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 1: into serving that life sentence, Areas is appealing to have 585 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 1: the conviction overturned, alleging, among other things, prosecutorial misconduct and 586 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 1: that the court's failure to control news coverage created a 587 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,840 Speaker 1: circus like atmosphere, which deprived her of the right to 588 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 1: a fair trial. The appeal also alleges that certain TV personalities, 589 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: like Nancy Grace, gave the trial a reality TV flavor. 590 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: Grace reacting to that accusation on her Serious XM podcast 591 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 1: Crime Stories on Friday, how can you get away from 592 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 1: the fact that her own admission and her camera convicted her, 593 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: not me or inybody else, And just days after her conviction, 594 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: a defiant Arias speaking to ABC News, So you really 595 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: are never going to tell the truth about what went 596 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: on in the bathroom. I don't know what you mean 597 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: by that, because I've told the truth. Okay, I didn't 598 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: know that you were a hater when you came to 599 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: interview me. Mmmmmmm. You're hearing from our friend Paula Ferris 600 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: at ABC. It's everybody but Arius, but warning again, it 601 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: ain't over yet. Stay tuned tomorrow for more of our 602 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: conversation about Jodi Arias and the death of Travis Alexander 603 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: Tomorrow on Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.