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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Greece. Johnny Depp versus Amber Heard.

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Speaker 1: Seems as if the country doesn't care about Rovie Wade

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Speaker 1: Baby formula politics. They are riveted on Johnny Depp versus

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Speaker 1: amber Heard. But why it's like passing a wreck on

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Speaker 1: the side of the interstate. You try not to look,

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Speaker 1: you try not to slow down, but you do. In

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Speaker 1: the last hours, damning testimony from the stand taking one

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Speaker 1: hit after the next at Johnny Depp. Why is this happening?

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Speaker 1: Because this is the grand finale of amber Heard's chase.

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Speaker 1: Very similar to a criminal case where the state goes

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Speaker 1: first and the defendant may or may not choose to

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Speaker 1: put up a case. In a civil case, the plaintiff

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Speaker 1: nobody's going to jail. It's all about money. The plaintiff,

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Speaker 1: Johnny Depp, is suing the non defendant, the respondent amber Heard,

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Speaker 1: claiming that she wrote an op ed in The Washington

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Speaker 1: Post that named him de facto as being her physical abuser.

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Speaker 1: He is suing for fifty million dollars. She's suing him

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Speaker 1: that for one hundred million when he claimed her allegations

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Speaker 1: were all a hoax. One witness after the next, taking

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Speaker 1: a hit at Depp. You got his former business manager,

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Speaker 1: his former agent, his friend that he allegedly cut loose

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Speaker 1: and ghosted, a former girlfriend, none other than the famous

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Speaker 1: Ellen Barkin. It goes on and on. Thanks for being

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Speaker 1: with us. I mean, it's he grace. This is crime

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Speaker 1: stories here at Fox Nation, in serious XM one eleven.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with the name we all know very well,

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Speaker 1: Ellen Barkin. I mean, this woman is fantastic. Did you

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Speaker 1: see her in Oceans? Oh my Stars, she stole the

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Speaker 1: show totally. Forget all the others, George Clooney, Paciano, blah blah,

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Speaker 1: Ellen Barkin. Awesome. Now she had an ill fated relationship

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Speaker 1: with Johnny Depp, who cares? Maybe this jury because take

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Speaker 1: a listen to what she had to tell the jury.

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Speaker 1: Mister Depp threw a wine bottle across the room, the

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Speaker 1: hotel room on one instance in Las Vegas, while we

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Speaker 1: were shooting Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, were you

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Speaker 1: was something about to happen? The fight was going on

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Speaker 1: between you and mister Duppa. No, who was the fight

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Speaker 1: between between Johnny Depp and his friends in the room

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Speaker 1: the assistant honestly, I don't remember. And the bottle that

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Speaker 1: do you remember sitting here today is barking whether the

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Speaker 1: bottle was full of wine or empty? I don't sitting

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Speaker 1: here to Davis barking, do you remember whether the bottle

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Speaker 1: hit you? No? It did not. Did the bottle hit

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Speaker 1: anyone else? No, it did not. Approximately how far away

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Speaker 1: from you was mister duck when he threw the bottle

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Speaker 1: across the room, So maybe by that break in the

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Speaker 1: table a little further down, it was a toss straight

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Speaker 1: out to Kayla Brantley, reporter, Daily Mail. You can find

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Speaker 1: her on Twitter at Underscore Kayla Brantley, Killa, I'm hearing

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Speaker 1: a lot about wine bottles being thrown in this case,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of a recurring thing. Oh yeah, absolutely, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he was very known to drink wine. Everybody

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Speaker 1: testified that he is a big red wine drinker, and

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Speaker 1: in this case that happened, you know, years and years ago.

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Speaker 1: It kind of speaks to this is how Johnny is,

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Speaker 1: and this is how Johnny has always been. She said

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Speaker 1: that he was drunk almost all of the time, and

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Speaker 1: then testified that he was also controlling and a jealous man.

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Speaker 1: And that's exactly what Amber Hurd has been saying. So

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Speaker 1: This all corroborates everything that Amber has saying that Johnny

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Speaker 1: was drunk almost all the time, and every time that

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Speaker 1: he was drunk or doing drugs, this monster would come

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Speaker 1: out and do these types of things like throwing bottles

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Speaker 1: and you know, really attacking people. You know what kill us.

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Speaker 1: I really admire you. I like everything you've ever done.

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Speaker 1: But aren't you putting a little perfume, a little perfume

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Speaker 1: on the pig when you say he liked wine, liked wine?

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Speaker 1: What he had a thirty thousand dollar wine tab that

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Speaker 1: we know of. This guy blew six hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: million dollars, a fortune he had been massed by his

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Speaker 1: own hard work and talent. Sheer talent and sheer hard work.

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Speaker 1: You can't spend thirty grand a month and not go

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Speaker 1: broke thirty grand on whine. That's a lot more than

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Speaker 1: loving a glass of wine. Absolutely, You're absolutely right. It

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Speaker 1: was more of a more than a like of wine.

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Speaker 1: He clearly has an issue here with thirty thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: a month on wine. And then also his business manager,

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Speaker 1: who he sued, testified and said that Johnny's finances were

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Speaker 1: a very dire thirty thousand dollars a month on wine,

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Speaker 1: you will quickly go broke. And he was paying his doctor,

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Speaker 1: doctor David Kipper, who some people called, you know, a

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Speaker 1: scam artist, one hundred thousand dollars a month. His assistant

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Speaker 1: earned you know, over a one hundred thousand dollars a year,

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Speaker 1: and his estate manager two hundred and two thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: a year. So he was blowing money lesson right, he

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Speaker 1: had all these penhouses and was living this lavish lifestyle

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Speaker 1: that clearly made him you lose all his money, you know,

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Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen talking about Ellen Barkin and Jackie. Let me

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Speaker 1: know when you have the rest of the sound I

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Speaker 1: want on Ellen Barkin. Daryl. Of course, a trial is

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Speaker 1: not a popularity contest. Nobody in miss trial is going

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Speaker 1: to go home crown, miss sweet Potato. And that goes

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Speaker 1: without saying. So I'm not saying that Ellen Barkin is popular.

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Speaker 1: What I am saying when I keep saying she's likable

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Speaker 1: and Amberhard has come across as not likable. The point is, Daryl, okay,

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Speaker 1: here's a good example. You were like this very much

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Speaker 1: in the courtroom criminal cases. But I always point to

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Speaker 1: Johnny Cochrane, whether he was prepared or not, it didn't matter.

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Speaker 1: He would walk into a courtroom. Everybody liked him. Every

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Speaker 1: even I, who vehemently disagree with everything that came out

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Speaker 1: of his mouth, I liked. And when a jury likes you,

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Speaker 1: they're more receptive to you. When you irritate them and

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Speaker 1: you great on their nerves, or they lose respect or

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Speaker 1: they don't they don't trust you anymore. They're not gonna

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Speaker 1: listen to a thing you say. So by putting up

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Speaker 1: this his former manager right that handled all of his

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Speaker 1: finances that he later sued. By putting up who I

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Speaker 1: thought was really believable and really likable, and then they

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Speaker 1: put up a longtime friend I think his name was Witkin,

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Speaker 1: who he kind of ghosted. For instance, Barkin is likable.

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Speaker 1: I think the jury is going to listen to her. Nancy,

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Speaker 1: I completely agree. Look, this is all about likability. This

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Speaker 1: is all about entertainment. Entertainment went from Los Angeles to Virginia.

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Speaker 1: We have a soap opera and both of these people,

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Speaker 1: Johnny and Amber may deserve to win an Emmy for

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Speaker 1: being on TV and clearly Oscar were This is not

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Speaker 1: a trial about somebody who's going to prison. This is

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Speaker 1: a trial about lawyer's winning and about both of them

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Speaker 1: being big at the box. After this is over Watch,

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Speaker 1: one of the jurars, are More writes a book watch

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Speaker 1: just listen, and this is an interesting trial because it

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Speaker 1: means nothing. It just means I have an ego and

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Speaker 1: I cannot allow you to write an opted where I

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Speaker 1: know that you are talking about me, and I am

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Speaker 1: not going to allow you to hurt me. So the

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Speaker 1: two of them deserve each other. They really do. What

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Speaker 1: a lovely couple. I mean, Killa Brantley joining me from

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Speaker 1: dailymail dot com Kila a few weeks ago. Isn't it

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Speaker 1: true that a witness came forward during Dept's portion of

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Speaker 1: the case. Right now, we're in Heard's response, Okay, in

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Speaker 1: Depth's portion of the case, a witness came forward and

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Speaker 1: said that Amber Heard actually wanted Johnny Depp's name in

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Speaker 1: the article, but the post Washington Post did not put

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Speaker 1: it in there. Yeah, I mean, we had heard from

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Speaker 1: a lawyer who said that he looked through the article

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Speaker 1: before it was published to make sure that you know,

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Speaker 1: she couldn't get sued for exactly what's happening now, couldn't

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Speaker 1: get sep for defination for using Johnny Depp's name in vain,

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Speaker 1: so that name was not put in. This was also

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Speaker 1: written with the acl ACLU. The ACLU helped Amber heard ricis.

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Speaker 1: So she clearly, you know, it seemed that she was

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Speaker 1: out for this, you know, exposure, to to defame Johnny Depp.

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Speaker 1: I guess in this case. But she did take some

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Speaker 1: precautions to not get sued, which clearly didn't work because

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Speaker 1: here we are, guys are talking about the testimony. It

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Speaker 1: was in a videotape recording of a deposition she took

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Speaker 1: in about twenty nineteen. But her words were powerful. Take

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Speaker 1: a listen to more of a movie star, Ellen Barkin

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Speaker 1: and fraught of the debt jury. You just use the

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Speaker 1: word jealous. How did that come up? What did he

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Speaker 1: say that indicated to you was jealous? He's just a

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Speaker 1: jealous man, controlling where are you going, who are you

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Speaker 1: going with? Well, what did you do last night? I

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Speaker 1: had a scratch on my back once. That got him very,

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Speaker 1: very angry because he insisted it came from me having

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Speaker 1: sex with a person who wasn't And during the time

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Speaker 1: that you were in a sexual relationship with mister Dupp,

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Speaker 1: was it common for him to say things to you

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Speaker 1: about being controlling, to use your words, or being jealous

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Speaker 1: of you? Yeah? Very come? And when in these instances

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Speaker 1: when mister Stepp became jealous or controlling, did he also

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Speaker 1: become angry? Yeah, and demanding prime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: Was it common for him to say things to you

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Speaker 1: about being controlling, to use your words, or being jealous? Yeah, Harry,

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Speaker 1: Come and when in these instances when mister steph became

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Speaker 1: jealous or controlling, did he also become angry? Yeah, and demanding? Angry, demanding?

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Speaker 1: You know, doctor Charles Heller is with me clinical forensic

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Speaker 1: psychologists specializing in domestic violence, the chief forensic consultant in

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Speaker 1: Rockland County. There in New York at the Forensic Mental

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Speaker 1: Health Unit, also with Rutger's Biomedical and Health Science as

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Speaker 1: I could go on, But to you, doctor Heller, I

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Speaker 1: know that you probably have a very fancy term for

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Speaker 1: this psychological talk, but I like to say, when you

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Speaker 1: don't know a horse, look at his track record. So

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Speaker 1: right now the jury is trying to figure out what

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Speaker 1: kind of horse Johnny Depp is and they're seeing a

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Speaker 1: track record through Ellen Barkin, jealous, controlling, domineering, drunk, high

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Speaker 1: use coke, use hallucinogenics, extremely jealous through a wine bottle,

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Speaker 1: confronted her about a scratch on her back, accused her

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Speaker 1: of being disloyal, cheating as everything Amber heard is saying, yes, Dancy,

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Speaker 1: all of these are signs of domestic violence. But both

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Speaker 1: of these people have been have admitted to being violent

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Speaker 1: with each other in different ways, and Amber seems to

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Speaker 1: be exaggerating the intensity and frequency. And that's a serious

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Speaker 1: problem for me. Yeah, it is a problem, And this

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Speaker 1: is the way I see breaking down. Let me go

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Speaker 1: to John Guard. He's the chief deputy at the Pitt

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Speaker 1: County Sheriff's Office, also specializing in investigating domestic violence. You

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Speaker 1: have investigated a sfi hundreds and hundreds of domestic violence cases.

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Speaker 1: And that's what this is about. Was her telling the truth,

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Speaker 1: and that Washington Post op ed has she ever been

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Speaker 1: beaten by Johnny Depp? When you go to trial, the

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Speaker 1: fact that the victim may have been beaten can be

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Speaker 1: obscured by the fact overshadowed by the fact the victim

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Speaker 1: has beaten the defendant, and the jury cancels it out.

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Speaker 1: It's called jury nullification. They may actually believe Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: hit her, but I hate her. She hit him too.

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Speaker 1: I don't like her. I think she's lying and totally

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Speaker 1: void her claims jury nullification. What about a John Guard? Well,

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Speaker 1: I think a couple of things I've learned, you know,

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Speaker 1: the most recent summaries and how the trial's going is

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Speaker 1: a couple of things in our world. You know, historically,

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Speaker 1: back in the olden days, domestic violence we look at

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Speaker 1: it as being incident based, you know that one time

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Speaker 1: when the nine one call came in. But what we

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Speaker 1: found over the years that a lot of times people

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Speaker 1: that are involved in these relationships not necessarily one instant.

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Speaker 1: And in those instants, you in at least criminal investigations,

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Speaker 1: you see a lot of co occurring crimes. I know

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Speaker 1: when they were looking at past history and talking with

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Speaker 1: other folks that were involved with mister Depth, you know,

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Speaker 1: they brought up past similar bad acts and you know,

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Speaker 1: we've evolved in the criminal world. Did not just look

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Speaker 1: at the instant Today, you look at past history the

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Speaker 1: term is there a pattern of behavior? And I you know,

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Speaker 1: the testimony about her striking depth. You know, when we

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Speaker 1: look into domestic violence cases all over this country, you

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Speaker 1: know there is no absolute obligation for somebody not to

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Speaker 1: defend themselves or defend others. So was it there not

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Speaker 1: a criminal case? Different levels of proof here in this trial.

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Speaker 1: But there are a lot of things coming out this week.

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Speaker 1: You know another thing, John Guard, and I really appreciate

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Speaker 1: what you're saying as all to all the guests on

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Speaker 1: our panel today, because you each have intrinsic value as

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Speaker 1: it relates to the depth trial, John Guard, I put

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Speaker 1: witnesses up on the stand when they were drunk as

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Speaker 1: a skunk. I could smell them when they came into

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Speaker 1: the courtroom. One was so drunk she had on a

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Speaker 1: fake for a hat. It was about ninety eight degrees outside.

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Speaker 1: They have had rap sheets, they've had criminal convictions. They're

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Speaker 1: not great people. Let's just say they ain't nins and

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Speaker 1: priests and virgins, Okay, but that does not mean they

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Speaker 1: cannot be a victim. Lady Justice as wearing a blindfold

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Speaker 1: for a reason. She doesn't care. She knows the character

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Speaker 1: of why do you're black, are you drunk or you're sober?

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Speaker 1: You got a substance abuse problem? This that My point is,

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Speaker 1: we may not, like Amber heard, We may have to

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Speaker 1: hold our nose when she testifies, but if he hit her,

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Speaker 1: none of that matters, right. I mean, witnesses are not perfect,

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Speaker 1: They're not angels. You have to take them as you

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Speaker 1: find them. I agree on I think this is very similar.

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Speaker 1: If you look at what the jurors are dealing with

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Speaker 1: and having to navigate. Law enforcement across this country deal

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Speaker 1: with this every day. It's it's not every domestic assault

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Speaker 1: that we go to where only one party used some

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Speaker 1: type of force. I mean, you have an obligation or

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Speaker 1: at least the right to defend oneself and at times

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Speaker 1: there may be an injury because of that, and you've

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Speaker 1: got to put it together. I love criminal investigations much

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Speaker 1: more than the civil end. You know, we're fact finders

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Speaker 1: and it leads us where we go. But we are

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Speaker 1: highly trained and skilled in these type of investigations. That's

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Speaker 1: why those that are involved or find themselves in these

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Speaker 1: type of relationships please reach out to law enforcement if

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Speaker 1: you need detailed mess of we're here for you. Know.

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Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen a former felony prosecutor many many years when

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Speaker 1: I started the District Attorney's office, Darrel was just leaving

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Speaker 1: after many years trying felony cases. Now civil lawyer in

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Speaker 1: Atlanta and really all across the country. Daryl, So these

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Speaker 1: are the two factors. Just tell me the truth. I

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Speaker 1: know this is going to be really hard for you

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Speaker 1: to do. I learned this the first week of law school.

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Speaker 1: For a lawyer to ever give a yes no answer.

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Speaker 1: But let me try again, Daryl Cohen. Yes, No. Do

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Speaker 1: you believe Johnny Depp ever hit Amber her? Absolutely? Even once? Absolutely? Okay,

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Speaker 1: me too, there, I'll tell you me too. On the

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Speaker 1: other hand, do you believe Amber heard hit Johnny Depp?

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Speaker 1: Belittled him, demand him without a doubt. I think the

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Speaker 1: two deserve So my next question to explain my answer

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Speaker 1: in jorgy. No, this is cross exam. Okay, Daryl. In

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Speaker 1: the jury's mind, you know what jury nullification is. It

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Speaker 1: could happen here. They may believe that sure Depp hit her,

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Speaker 1: but they may dislike her in disbelieve so many portions

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Speaker 1: off her testimony as being exaggerated, falsified, an outright lie

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Speaker 1: in some occasions that they discount her testimony and fine

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Speaker 1: for dept. That could happen. Nancy absolutely could happen. It's

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Speaker 1: the likability factor. However, I think they're gonna dislike Johnny

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Speaker 1: Depp in some ways, they're dislike Amber Heard in some

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Speaker 1: ways and Lady Justice holding those scales, They're going to

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Speaker 1: drop fallout, and Justice is going to be the lawyers

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Speaker 1: win and Johnny and Amber with at the box office

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Speaker 1: regardless of what happens with the jury, Bernie. If Depp

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Speaker 1: ever gets another movie role other than the one in

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Speaker 1: France where he's going to be Louis the Fifteenth. Okay, guys,

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Speaker 1: it's not just about Ellen Barkin, who I found to

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Speaker 1: be one of the most powerful witnesses because I think

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Speaker 1: the jury can relate to her. They think they know her,

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Speaker 1: and maybe we do know her. Maybe her on screen

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Speaker 1: persona is her personality. But in addition to her, Johnny

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Speaker 1: Depp's former agent, Tracy Jacob I found her testimony really

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Speaker 1: powerful and his former business manager that he sued, Joel Mandel,

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Speaker 1: very powerful. Let's take a listen to his former agent,

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Speaker 1: Tracy Jacob urcut A. Was mister Depp a difficult client

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Speaker 1: to represent? He wasn't initially and it became far more

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Speaker 1: complicated in the last ten years of representing him. And

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Speaker 1: how did it become far more complicated than less ten years?

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Speaker 1: And representation is unprofessional behavior anything else. I think that

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Speaker 1: covers a multitude of things. And that's going to be

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Speaker 1: my next question. What do you mean by mister Depp's

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Speaker 1: unprofessional movie? In the last ten years of your representation,

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Speaker 1: going up late to set consistently on virtually every movie,

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Speaker 1: I would get yelled at. I never said to him,

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Speaker 1: you're a difficult client. I never used those words, but

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Speaker 1: I was very honest with him and said, you've got

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Speaker 1: to stop doing this. This is hurting you. And it did.

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Speaker 1: There you were hearing his former agent, and that agent

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Speaker 1: had been with him for I think ten years or more.

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Speaker 1: So what they're doing Killa Brantley Kila is a reporter

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Speaker 1: with Dailymail dot Com, which has read all over the

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Speaker 1: world Killa. It seems to me that they are trying

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Speaker 1: to tear it down Johnny Depp's likability and show that

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Speaker 1: Amberhard's op ED was not the cause of his demise,

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Speaker 1: that he was his own undoing late to set drunk.

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Speaker 1: I mean, when you keep a crew waiting six hours,

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Speaker 1: they don't care if you're likable or funny or talented,

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Speaker 1: and oh nobody likes that. And even in Hollywood they

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Speaker 1: do have standards Killa. Yeah, that's exactly what they're trying

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Speaker 1: to do here, because Johnny's saying that it was the

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Speaker 1: op ed that made him lose his Pirates of the

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Speaker 1: Caribbean role. He got twenty five million dollars for like

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Speaker 1: the last movie, I believe, so he lost out on

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Speaker 1: a lot of money when he lost contract, and he's

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Speaker 1: saying that it was Amber Heard's OpEd that did that.

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Speaker 1: But here we're seeing something totally different. That he had

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Speaker 1: bad behavior, that it was increased due to his alcohol

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Speaker 1: and drugs, and that he was late. That at one

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Speaker 1: point he was using an earpiece to feed him his lines,

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Speaker 1: is what his former agent said. That what's interesting here

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Speaker 1: is that he dropped his agent. I believe he represented

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Speaker 1: him for thirty years, so they had been together for

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Speaker 1: a long time throughout almost his entire career, and that

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Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen he completely dropped her along with his

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Speaker 1: friend who testified, along with his business manager. So it

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Speaker 1: seems around twenty sixteen he was really going through a

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Speaker 1: time where I believe Tracy Jacobs, the agent, said he

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Speaker 1: quote terminated essentially everyone in his life and she was

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Speaker 1: just along for the ride. Oh curious what happened in

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Speaker 1: two thousand sixteen to make him do that. Kia, Well,

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Speaker 1: that was a year that he was dealing with amber.

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Speaker 1: According to his friend, I believe his name is Bruce Witkin,

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Speaker 1: he had been his friends four years a year. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they were in a band together, I think, yes, exactly,

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Speaker 1: Hollywood Vampires. They worked together until something just happened. He

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Speaker 1: said that there were rumors that he believed he was

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Speaker 1: trying to use him. So it seems like Johnny got

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Speaker 1: pretty paranoid regarding the people around him. He sued his

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Speaker 1: business manager, saying that he was stealing money from him,

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Speaker 1: when in reality it looks like his finances were just

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Speaker 1: extremely dire dire. Hey, that's a good way to put it,

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Speaker 1: Keila Brantley. Let's listen to what the former business manager

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Speaker 1: now famously the reason we know about that thirty thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars a month wine bill, thirty thousand a month wine bill,

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Speaker 1: About these seventy five million dollars he blew on an island,

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Speaker 1: about paying this doctor thousands and thousands of dollars a

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Speaker 1: month to help him talks. He was paying his staff

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Speaker 1: I believe correct me from ron Kiella about three hundred

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Speaker 1: grand a month. All in all, the staff. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was just he was hemorrhaging money. But take a

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Speaker 1: listen to Josh Mandale this is our cut forty four.

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Speaker 1: His financial circumstances in two thousand and fifteen had reached

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Speaker 1: a point where I was extremely concerned and was on

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Speaker 1: a very very regular basis express in that concern. And

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Speaker 1: it seemed, as um I increased increased my level of

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Speaker 1: expressing that concern, there was anger directed in uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: in my direction. Um. And so my warnings in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and fifteen that we were in very dire financial

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Speaker 1: circumstances were not very favorable. So didn't there come a

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Speaker 1: time you observed, as mister Depp's business manager that his

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Speaker 1: spending habits became more increased, perhaps excessive, extravagant. Yes, And

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Speaker 1: when when did you observe that? When did that begin?

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Speaker 1: Again in the time of for am I described in

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Speaker 1: that two thousand and ten an on time frame, As

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Speaker 1: I recall, income was very significant, spending was very significant, um.

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Speaker 1: And the again, the spending levels had grown very, very,

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Speaker 1: very large and required that level of incredibly high income

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Speaker 1: to be maintained, and when it dropped off, the disconnect

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Speaker 1: became untenable. What's so significant about Debt paying staff members

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Speaker 1: three hundred thousand dollars a month, and there were many,

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Speaker 1: many staff members, is that Amber heards side is making

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Speaker 1: the argument that his employees and friends are signing with

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Speaker 1: him because he has paid them so much money over

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Speaker 1: the course of years and years and years. And to you,

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Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen, veteran trial lawyer, there is absolutely a valid

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Speaker 1: line across examination to suggest someone has a pecuniary or

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Speaker 1: money interest in the outcome of the trial. Oh without

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Speaker 1: a downmancie. If they didn't have an interest, then why

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Speaker 1: would they be there? Well, they may be there because

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Speaker 1: they like him. Oh why do they like him? Not

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Speaker 1: because he drinks, not because he's late to the set,

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Speaker 1: but because he pays me, and he pays me on time.

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Speaker 1: That makes a major difference in many cases. And it

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Speaker 1: may help Amber, or it may just be one more

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Speaker 1: thing that the jury goes. Okay, next, let's please entertain me.

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Speaker 1: Come on, Hollywood, stay here in Virginia. We love you.

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Speaker 1: You know. There was a cast of characters on the

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Speaker 1: stand now in what we we believe to be the

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Speaker 1: grand finale of the Amber heard response, as you know,

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Speaker 1: Dept goes first heard goes second to you. Keela joining us,

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Speaker 1: Kella Brantley joining us from dailymail dot com. There have

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Speaker 1: been rumblings that Amber Heard's lawyers are going to call

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Speaker 1: Johnny Depp back to the stand. Now, in a criminal case,

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Speaker 1: of course, the state cannot call the defendant. Can't do it.

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Speaker 1: It violates the right to remain silent in the Fifth

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Speaker 1: Amendment in a civil case. Not true, Not true at all.

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Speaker 1: Do you believe Heard is going to call Depp back

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Speaker 1: to the stand, Well, there have been rumblings of that,

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Speaker 1: and I could totally see that happening. If he does

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Speaker 1: come back, they would absolutely try to discredit everything that

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Speaker 1: he said. Again, he was so likable to the jury

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Speaker 1: when he was on the stand the first time, and

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Speaker 1: Amber Heard was not as likable as you can see

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Speaker 1: from the court of public opinion. So I think definitely

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Speaker 1: calling him back could be a move for them to

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Speaker 1: try to tear him down and try to catch him

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Speaker 1: in a potential life. Well, you know they had that chance, Daryl,

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Speaker 1: going on cross examination of Johnny Depp. He was up

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Speaker 1: in his own case and they cross examined him extensively.

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Speaker 1: I think putting him back on the stand would be

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Speaker 1: a huge, huge, a grave miscalculation on the part of

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Speaker 1: Hurd's team, because once they put him on the stand,

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Speaker 1: his side, well, his own lawyers will have him on

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Speaker 1: cross exam And Nancy, I hate to agree with you,

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Speaker 1: but one thousand percent, to put him back on the

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Speaker 1: stand gives him a chance not only to look good,

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Speaker 1: rehabilitate himself, and to remind the jurors what a really

426
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: good guy he was in spite of his flaws. Bad

427
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: move in my view, yes, exactly. And you know, Daryl,

428
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: which is such a powerful tool for a lawyers when

429
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 1: you get the last word. Now, in a state's case,

430
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: typically the state gets the final closing argument. You typically

431
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: have a chance to give the first closing argument, and

432
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: then the defense gives a closing and then you get

433
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: to give another closing or you can let them go

434
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: first and you go second. And the last thing that

435
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: Jerry hears ringing in their ears is you telling it?

436
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: You telling it? In this case, if they put Depth

437
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: back on the stand, and then his own lawyers get

438
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: to cross examine him, and when I say, his own

439
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: lawyers get across him, Okay, you be dept I'll be

440
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: your lawyer. Isn't it true? Johnny that she demand you answer, absolutely,

441
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: demand me. I cannot believe what she did to me. Yes,

442
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: isn't it true? She attacked you? Isn't it true? She

443
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: savaged you, she ruined you, she turned you. Guess your

444
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: friends loved her. They'll have a field day, Daryl Cohen

445
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: if they have their own client all Cross by the way,

446
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: you have only one chance to make a first impression.

447
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: He did when he testified, and if he comes back,

448
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: he has the opportunity, as you have just pointed out,

449
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: to make a last impression. First and last. What happens

450
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: in the middle, you forget. It's like reading a newspaper article.

451
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: You look at the beginning in the end, especially in

452
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: these long, long trials time stories with Nancy Grace. Hey, guys.

453
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: Another person that took the stand was Tina Newman Calla

454
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: Brantley joining you from delmail dot com. One thing I

455
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: liked about her I don't necessarily agree with what she said.

456
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: I'll tell you why later, but she was a very

457
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: matter of fact and actually very dry, and I like

458
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: to that. Yeah. So she was an executive for Disney,

459
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: and she pretty much spoke about the Pirates of the

460
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: Caribbean film and said that, you know, Disney was not

461
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: considering offering a Depth, you know, a thirty one hundred

462
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: million dollars and a million alpacas, which was something that

463
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 1: it was a comment that that made I've got that saying,

464
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: O ky l, that's exactly what I was going to

465
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,959
Speaker 1: play for yeas cut forty five. This is teena newman

466
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: a Disney exec. Is Disney aware that mister Depth has

467
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: testified under both that he would not take another I

468
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: would say the Caribbean franchise role for three hundred million

469
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: dollars and a million alpacas. Now with Disney entertain paying

470
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: mister Depth more than three hundred million dollars and provide

471
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: him with a more than called packers to be able

472
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: to maintain his services for any future pirates to the

473
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: Caribbean goal, Now you know what's what's interesting there. And

474
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: let me throw this to our expert, John Guard, Chief

475
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: Debut Pitt County, and then I'll follow up with Charles

476
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: Hell or our clinical forensic psychologist. There's this absurd question,

477
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: did Disney actually consider paying him three hundred million and

478
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: what a million alpacas? It was a joke Depp had

479
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: made earlier that even if they pay me three hundred

480
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: million dollars and a million alpackers, I wouldn't do it.

481
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: Her response was so she looked right at the camera,

482
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: went no, no explanation. I mean I found her very believable,

483
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: and in a case like this, where there has been

484
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: almost a circus atmosphere, her personality really cuts through. Let

485
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: me just say the crap. I would agree with you.

486
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: But what's interesting about it? To doctor Charles Heller forensic psychologists,

487
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: let's think this thing through. While she seemed very believable

488
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,719
Speaker 1: in the stand, it's really hard for me to believe

489
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: what she said about the OpEd having nothing to do

490
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: with Disney cutting debt loose why timing? Timing? Timing? She

491
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: puts out the OpEd, and very quickly after that, Disney

492
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: announces bye bye, You're over debt. I mean, how can

493
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: they not be connected? Nan, I see the reason many

494
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: of Johnny's fans are so dedicated to him is that

495
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: he concedes his faults. She never concedes her faults. She

496
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: has been dishonest about donating money when she just pledged

497
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: the money for her It's the same thing. And again

498
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: she describes his very violent personality and behavior, yet she

499
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: actually gave him a knife as a gift. Things don't

500
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: make sense. You know, you brought up the lie about

501
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: the donation of the money. That was a lie. Yeah.

502
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 1: The poop in the bed was a lie. Yes. And

503
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: many people wonder about her certain claims that she used

504
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: a certain makeup to cover up her bruises when that

505
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 1: makeup had not even been put on the market at

506
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: that time. That was a lie. Does that mean she

507
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: can't be beaten? No, but doesn't mean the jury may

508
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: not believe her very possibly. Want to circle back to

509
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 1: Ellen Barkin take a listen. Did there come a time

510
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: when your friendship with mister dat became more than that,

511
00:34:54,880 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: became romantic nature? Yes? And at one point in time,

512
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 1: did your relationship with mister Dadap take it a romantic turn?

513
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: After I had moved to Hollywood and he, you know,

514
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 1: switched the buttons. We'll call what you're you moved to Hollywood? Yes, um,

515
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety four. When you say switched the bonds, can

516
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: you tell me what you want better? M the friendship

517
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:40,800
Speaker 1: went from a purely platonic friendship to a romantic um

518
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: at that point in nineteen ninety four, when the relationship

519
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: turned romantic to your change that to sexual to sexual?

520
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 1: Thank you for How long did your relationship with mister

521
00:35:54,800 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 1: Dupp remain sexual? Several months? Anywhere between three and five six.

522
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 1: I find that really interesting and thought provoking. I think

523
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: it was Ellen Barkin that said, could you change that

524
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 1: characterization from romantic to sexual? Did I hear that correctly,

525
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 1: Killa Brantley? Was she the one that made that clarification

526
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: or was it the lawyer questioning her? No, it was

527
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: absolutely Ellen Barkin. She doubled back and she said, please

528
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,280
Speaker 1: change romantic to sexual. She wanted to make that clear.

529
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: But it was a sexual relationship for a few months,

530
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 1: and then she said that when it ended, it was

531
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 1: long drawn out, goodbye tears, and then she left and

532
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: never heard from depth again. I find her characterization clarification

533
00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 1: very curious. She made it clear it was that romantic

534
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:06,959
Speaker 1: it was sexual. Why did she do that? What does

535
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: that mean to her? And what will the jury make

536
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: of that? To you? Doctor Charles Heller, you're the psychologist,

537
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 1: what do you think? Well, basically, she says he changed.

538
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: He pushed a new button. But you can't push a

539
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 1: new button unless there's a response, positive response, not what

540
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: I asked you I agree with what you're saying. What

541
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: I asked you is she corrected the lawyer. She said

542
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 1: it was not romantic, it was sexual. What does that mean? Well,

543
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 1: she wanted to clarify that it was just sexual. It

544
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,919
Speaker 1: was physical. There was no emotional connection, there was no love.

545
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: The reason I ask is because later we learn that

546
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 1: Depp said they broke up. He embarking broke up because

547
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: she wanted a quote, proper relationship and ship and he

548
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: could not give her that. Therefore they broke up. I

549
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: find that really interesting, the dichotomy of those two adjectives.

550
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 1: What if anything, that will mean to the jury. While

551
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: I mull that, can we talk one minute about his lawyer?

552
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: What about that killer Brantley? I mean, she's all over him.

553
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 1: It looks like they're going steady. Maybe he gave her

554
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 1: a law of a leer. I don't know what's what's

555
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: with that? Oh? I absolutely love all the rumors going

556
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 1: around about Camille Bascauz. You see, they are very touchy,

557
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: very affectionate. But there is a theory that you know,

558
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: they aren't anything romantic, and that, if anything, it's a

559
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: ploy that the jury can see that a very you know,

560
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: well educated woman who's a very strong woman can see

561
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: the good in Johnny Depp. But they have a good

562
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: relationship and if anything, it's a show for the jury

563
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: that you know, Johnny Depp is this good guy who's

564
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 1: very likable and can be respectful towards women. I'm not

565
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 1: sure if there's anything actually going on, but Camille Lass

566
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: has come out as the star of this trial, especially

567
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: during her cross examination of Amber Heard. She was so fierce,

568
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 1: so direct, and really really tripped Amber Heard up a lot.

569
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: I frankly don't care who he is sleeping with who,

570
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: But what I do care is trial strategy. Daryl Cohen,

571
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: do you remember the Menendez brothers trial where the female

572
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 1: defense attorney was all over them, like smoothing their sweaters,

573
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,959
Speaker 1: and they're fixing their tie and picking limped off them

574
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: and hugging them, humanizing them to a degree in front

575
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: of the jury, to make the jury look at that

576
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 1: look here, not there, at the double murder, At the

577
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: mother Menandez crawling down the hallway on her hands and

578
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,280
Speaker 1: knees trying to get away from a viage of bullets

579
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: and flicked it upon her by her own sons, the

580
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:15,399
Speaker 1: Menandez brothers. Oh I remember it did it work? Though

581
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: it did not, I would say, h double L no,

582
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: it did not. I agree, Nancy. But I'm back to

583
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:29,919
Speaker 1: Johnny's lawyer. I'm wondering why she makes so many objections

584
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 1: that mean nothing other than having a draw right up

585
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: the rhythm. Well, but there was no rhythm, and you

586
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,439
Speaker 1: and I have done this over and over again. She's

587
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,760
Speaker 1: made objections when there was no rhythm, and I'm wondering

588
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 1: if there isn't something more to it than trial strategy.

589
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: I wonder if it's social strategy. Interesting because social media

590
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: did come into the trial. From the stand one witness

591
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 1: advice that Amber heard had lost roles because of unfavorable

592
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:06,720
Speaker 1: social media, for instance hashtags like justice for Johnny and others,

593
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: and because Johnny Depp's lawyer made disparaging comments about her,

594
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 1: which they claim hurt her. With the movie studios. It's

595
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: all happening in a courtroom. As this trial seems to

596
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 1: be culminating, we wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace crime story,

597
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:26,720
Speaker 1: signing off Goodbye friend,