Speaker 1: You're listening to Comedy Central.
Speaker 2: From the most trusted journalists at Comedy Center, It's America's
Speaker 2: only source for news.
Speaker 1: This is the daily Joke with your host Jazzy Lin.
Speaker 2: Welighting.
Speaker 3: You've got so much to talk about tonight. The right
Speaker 3: pretends invading Greenland isn't weird as hell. We've got tips
Speaker 3: for maintaining your insurrection. And you won't believe this, But
Speaker 3: New Yorkers are complaining about something. But first, Donald Trump
Speaker 3: is reminding people what his special brand of leadership looks like.
Speaker 3: So let's get into our continuing coverage of Trump. Two
Speaker 3: point zero coming for the White House.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna go.
Speaker 3: Let's kick things off with President elect Donald Trump. He's
Speaker 3: not even on America's payroll yet, but he's already causing
Speaker 3: chaos for free.
Speaker 5: What a workaholic.
Speaker 3: As you've probably heard, Trump has decided that his first
Speaker 3: big policy proposal will.
Speaker 5: Be buying or perhaps invading Greenland.
Speaker 3: It's the kind of nonsense no one should take seriously,
Speaker 3: but Trump said it, so I guess we're all doing
Speaker 3: this it.
Speaker 1: We'll be exciting that Greenland was part of the United State.
Speaker 5: I think that the people of Greenland should be honored.
Speaker 3: This to me could be Donald Trump's Louisiana purchase, same
Speaker 3: size as the l Xiana purchase in square miles Greenland. Strategically,
Speaker 3: it makes sense because it's the It's halfway point between
Speaker 3: our country and the UK, so it would make.
Speaker 5: Sense to have that for war purposes. Yes, war purposes.
Speaker 3: I'm not exactly sure what that means, but I guess
Speaker 3: we should annex any place that's halfway between us and
Speaker 3: somewhere else.
Speaker 5: This is just so sad.
Speaker 3: I know she's trying to be supported, but you could
Speaker 3: tell even Ainsley thinks this is a bad idea, And
Speaker 3: this is a lady excited to marry Sean Hannity, can
Speaker 3: you imagine how exhausting it is to treat every one
Speaker 3: of Trump's dumb ideas like it's.
Speaker 5: A work of art. Oh, sweetheart, what a beautiful drawing.
Speaker 5: It looks like the Louisiana purchase.
Speaker 6: I want to put it.
Speaker 5: On the fridge.
Speaker 3: But while the Pentagon draws up plans for war against puffins,
Speaker 3: Trump is giving us a reminder about what his leadership
Speaker 3: looks like during times of crisis. Because while everyone else
Speaker 3: is deeply concerned with what's going on in Los Angeles
Speaker 3: Right now, Trump is handling the tragedy like this statesman.
Speaker 5: That he is.
Speaker 3: Donald Trump is now weighing in on the horrific fires
Speaker 3: in Los Angeles County, and he's laying the blame on
Speaker 3: California's Democratic governor in.
Speaker 7: A social media post, referring to the governor as news
Speaker 7: scum and writing he is the blame for this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, in the midst of chaos, Donald Trump is taking
Speaker 3: action by opening up the strategic nickname reserves. Thank you, sir,
Speaker 3: Although quick question for Trump, do you mean new scum
Speaker 3: or news come?
Speaker 6: I'm your comment, got it.
Speaker 3: Even though we can't count on the incoming president, some
Speaker 3: people are stepping up. And it's always heartening to see
Speaker 3: everybody coming out to help their neighbors. And I do
Speaker 3: mean everybody.
Speaker 8: It's important announcement. I wonder if I could just make
Speaker 8: here on Palisades Drive, if anybody has a car and
Speaker 8: they leave their car, leave the keys in the car,
Speaker 8: so a guy like me can move your cars and
Speaker 8: get them up there so that so that these fire
Speaker 8: trucks can get up there. It's really really important.
Speaker 1: Thank you for talking to deal with live, sir. What's
Speaker 1: her name?
Speaker 8: Is my name?
Speaker 1: Is Steve Gutenberg.
Speaker 3: Holy shit, Steve Gutenberg, the actor, Steve Gutenberg moving abandoned
Speaker 3: cars out of the way for firefighters.
Speaker 5: That is amazing. Okay.
Speaker 3: And not only that, but if anyone abandons a baby,
Speaker 3: he and two other men will raise it for them,
Speaker 3: Hi Jinkswill and Sue. Of course, as great as that
Speaker 3: is to see, officials are warning that now that the
Speaker 3: fire has reached Steve Gutenberg, it's only two degrees from
Speaker 3: Kevin Bacon. Now, if you're wondering why Trump isn't focused
Speaker 3: on helping Californians, it's because he's focused on the people
Speaker 3: who need him most, his insurrectionists.
Speaker 9: Trump didn't rule out pardons for those who were charged
Speaker 9: with committing acts of violence in January sixth, twenty twenty one.
Speaker 9: Are you planning to pardon those who were charged with
Speaker 9: violent offensive?
Speaker 1: Well, we'll looking at it.
Speaker 3: We'll be looking at the whole thing, but I'll be
Speaker 3: making major pardons.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: On the one hand, it's absolutely shameful that Trump would
Speaker 3: pardon these rioters, but you have to remember these people
Speaker 3: are his rider dies. They stormed to the Capitol and
Speaker 3: they shot on a desk for him. No one's ever
Speaker 3: shot on a desk for me, not once, and I
Speaker 3: took out a Craigslist ad.
Speaker 6: For him.
Speaker 5: It's all about loyalty.
Speaker 3: Plus he's going to need a personal army for when
Speaker 3: he invades Greenland. Those puffers aren't gonna pepper spray themselves.
Speaker 3: Plus he also wants to give insurrection.
Speaker 5: It's a little treat.
Speaker 3: They must have been so disappointed when January sixth came
Speaker 3: around this year and they didn't get the chance to riot.
Speaker 3: But for anyone out there who over prepared for this
Speaker 3: year's January sixth, there are still some options for you.
Speaker 7: You were ready to storm the Capitol, but then Donald
Speaker 7: Trump won the election. Now what do you do with
Speaker 7: all that insurrection gear? No problem, You can just repurpose
Speaker 7: all that stuff you were going to patriotically and democracy with.
Speaker 7: Have too many zip ties, make a belt to carry
Speaker 7: your tools, or create a timeless necklace for your wife.
Speaker 7: That extra pepper spray can spice up your dinner. Leftover
Speaker 7: stun gun now a car battery jumper. Use a pipe
Speaker 7: bomb as a dumbbell, And instead of using that flagpole
Speaker 7: to beat cops, try using it as a flagpole. That
Speaker 7: horn helmet is your new coat rack. But keep all
Speaker 7: that lumber you bought to Bill Gallows, because hanging Mike
Speaker 7: Pence is always an option. This message was brought to
Speaker 7: you by your local hardware store. We don't accept returns.
Speaker 7: Next time, we'll discuss how to get vaccines out of
Speaker 7: your body.
Speaker 3: Back to find out why New Yorkers are not walking here,
Speaker 3: Ford Garways.
Speaker 5: Welcome Mac to the daily show.
Speaker 3: Windsor in New York is always a magical time to
Speaker 3: freeze your tits off, But this winter the city is
Speaker 3: adding something extra special.
Speaker 10: Tonight, a first in the nation toll called congestion pricing
Speaker 10: now an effect in New York City. Millions of drivers
Speaker 10: paying nine dollars to access the busiest part of Manhattan
Speaker 10: south of sixtieth Street.
Speaker 5: Huh, that makes sense. One clap.
Speaker 3: One person here thinks that makes sense.
Speaker 5: That makes sense.
Speaker 3: If you charge more to drive in the city, the
Speaker 3: roads get less congested.
Speaker 5: Who could have a problem with that.
Speaker 1: It's horrible, horrible tonight.
Speaker 10: They're coming down on the hard people that are trying
Speaker 10: to work and make money.
Speaker 8: I dropped my wife off at the apartment on sixtieth Street,
Speaker 8: and I got to pay nine dollars extra to do that.
Speaker 1: I was putting that bill together, and you can see
Speaker 1: a psychiatrist.
Speaker 5: See a psychiatrist.
Speaker 3: This is New York, pal, everyone's already saying a psychiatrist.
Speaker 5: Look, I get it.
Speaker 3: New York is already a crazy extensive place to live.
Speaker 3: The only reason I had kids was so I could
Speaker 3: split the rent with someone. And I guess for some
Speaker 3: commuters who don't have other options, this could be a
Speaker 3: real hardship. But not everyone who's complaining is quite so sympathetic.
Speaker 2: It really hits home because I live right here on
Speaker 2: sixth first Street, in this building, and my car is
Speaker 2: right there parked in front of my building. And if
Speaker 2: I want to go to turn around to go uptown
Speaker 2: to visit my kids who live on seventy ninth Street,
Speaker 2: I have to pay nine dollars to go around the block.
Speaker 3: Well, I guess that's settled. I'll never see my kids again. Buddy,
Speaker 3: driving is not the only way to get across twenty blocks.
Speaker 3: You could take the subway or the bus, or have
Speaker 3: you considered legs, legs the ford f one point fifty
Speaker 3: of the body. But some people aren't just complaining. They're
Speaker 3: taking action, although not action like taking mass transit.
Speaker 5: I mean action like crime.
Speaker 11: The motorists are coming up with clever ways to avoid
Speaker 11: those tool cameras planted strategically around the city. This brazen
Speaker 11: driver removed his plates altogether.
Speaker 3: Wait, how is that clever? He just took off his
Speaker 3: license plate. So that's clever. But when I avoid my
Speaker 3: taxes by telling the irs that I'm dead, I'm a
Speaker 3: wanted felon.
Speaker 5: Come on, it's not right. I don't think so.
Speaker 3: Removing the license plates isn't clever? Now covering your car
Speaker 3: in license plates that that would be clever. But regardless,
Speaker 3: don't commit crimes all right, because Mayor Eric Adams doesn't
Speaker 3: need another thing to worry about.
Speaker 12: Mayor Eric Adams laughed off a question asking him to
Speaker 12: assess how it's working so far, but he also reminded
Speaker 12: New Yorker's congestion pricing wasn't his idea.
Speaker 6: I have ninety nine problems, you know.
Speaker 5: Ninety nine problems.
Speaker 3: I think those are called indictments. I don't know if
Speaker 3: ninety nine problems is a song. People associate most with
Speaker 3: Eric Adams. I'd go with in the club or a
Speaker 3: club can't handle me, or I'm under investigation for bribes
Speaker 3: from Turkey. Real hip hop heads know that one look,
Speaker 3: I know that this is a big change, and I
Speaker 3: get that there are some drivers who are worried about
Speaker 3: the safety on the subway. But the more people who
Speaker 3: use the subway, the less room the subway masturbators will
Speaker 3: have to masturbate, so it works out for everyone. We'll
Speaker 3: see how it all turns out, although so far the
Speaker 3: news has been pretty positive.
Speaker 11: The Lincoln Tunnel moving well, it's almost unheard about this
Speaker 11: hour to see that.
Speaker 5: So it could be that congestion pricing has gotten people
Speaker 5: off the road.
Speaker 3: Look at that it's working. And yes, it's only been
Speaker 3: a few days. So I don't want to get ahead
Speaker 3: of myself, but I'm pretty sure that there will ever
Speaker 3: be any problems in New York.
Speaker 5: Ever.
Speaker 3: Again, of course, in a city this big, there's bound
Speaker 3: to be a variety of opinions about congestion pricing, so
Speaker 3: we sent Josh Johnson to the streets to get some
Speaker 3: of them.
Speaker 13: New Yorkers disagree on a lot of things Yankees sources, mets,
Speaker 13: pizza toppings, whether you can poop on the subway or not.
Speaker 13: But now there's one thing ripping New Yorkers of heart
Speaker 13: more than ever.
Speaker 5: Congestion pricing is official.
Speaker 1: Drivers are now paying to dry us out of sixtieth Street.
Speaker 6: I had to pay the congestion pricing.
Speaker 13: How do you feel about it?
Speaker 6: Not too happy cars or congestion pricing cars, both the cars.
Speaker 9: I don't like the idea of all of those New
Speaker 9: Jersey keeople being.
Speaker 13: Taxed so hearly do you think that maybe it should
Speaker 13: go the other way? Maybe New York shill have to
Speaker 13: pay nine dollars to get into Jersey.
Speaker 6: Absolutely not all.
Speaker 5: He wants to go to Jersey unless they have.
Speaker 13: To, Because yeah, because cars are very important because as
Speaker 13: a New Yorker, how old are you going to get
Speaker 13: where you need to be besides the subway or the
Speaker 13: or the bus or a bike or like a petticab
Speaker 13: or the horse drawn carriage. Scooters, segues, moler blades are
Speaker 13: in again, solo wheels, piggyback rides, you know, from nice walking,
Speaker 13: walking with a purpose, and yeah, yeah, we need more options.
Speaker 4: We know they need the money for the MTA. It's
Speaker 4: supposedly raised fifty million dollars a year, so you know,
Speaker 4: I definitely feel okay to the city doing this.
Speaker 13: What type of improvements would you made to the MTA?
Speaker 2: Regular service that's completely reliable.
Speaker 10: Teleportation.
Speaker 13: Teleportation is actually way more likely than the regular service.
Speaker 14: The first thing I would love to fix is that
Speaker 14: we have lights everywhere. I don't have to be afraid
Speaker 14: to walk in the dark tunnel when I get off
Speaker 14: the work at night.
Speaker 13: Okay.
Speaker 14: I would also like to have them have some people
Speaker 14: maybe help the people that I see walking around naked.
Speaker 13: I'm very sorry about that. Was that was me and
Speaker 13: that was a hot day. I mean, maybe they could
Speaker 13: use some of the money put like some glade plugins
Speaker 13: in the subway cars. That'd be a huge improvement right there.
Speaker 4: I'm guessing because of the crime rate in the subway,
Speaker 4: it's probably not the number one priorities, I guess.
Speaker 13: But if I'm being mugged on the subway and it
Speaker 13: also stinks, that's two bad.
Speaker 7: Things happen to me.
Speaker 13: At the same time, I want to get robs somewhere clean.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think hygienus important.
Speaker 13: One of my biggest hopes is that with less cars,
Speaker 13: with less congestion, right, it'll make airic Adams trying to
Speaker 13: go away from the figs a much cooler chase. You
Speaker 13: got that, He'll be born supremacy level Chase. So I
Speaker 13: mean less cars means less noise. Who would have thought
Speaker 13: with less noise, I can finally hear jackhammers, I can
Speaker 13: hear sirens. I can hear like views and screams and stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 13: but about that's that's that's you know, that's showing love
Speaker 13: in New York.
Speaker 1: So you know I walk around you to this camera.
Speaker 1: That's showing love.
Speaker 10: Yeah, I'm good.
Speaker 6: How good to let you know?
Speaker 13: Now I are you in New York? But you're really alive. Yeah,
Speaker 13: we're going part ways.
Speaker 5: You too.
Speaker 14: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Thanks, you can he come back, you can leaves. We'll
Speaker 5: be joining me on the show. Welcome that the Baby Show.
Speaker 3: My guest tonight is the president of the American Institute
Speaker 3: for Boys and Men, an author of the Book of
Speaker 3: Boys and Men. Why the Modern Man is Struggling, Why
Speaker 3: and what to do about it? Please welcome Richard Reeves.
Speaker 5: Well, thank you for being here.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 5: I sure appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Now, this Book of Boys and Men is a reboot
Speaker 3: of Mice and Men?
Speaker 15: Correct, right, So I thought I'd go back to a
Speaker 15: literary canon and turn it into a book with so
Speaker 15: many charts in it. You remember of Mice and Men,
Speaker 15: didn't have any charts.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 5: It was so much You made that change.
Speaker 3: And I've always felt the problem was with the mice,
Speaker 3: so you you prodected.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well, I.
Speaker 5: Guess none of these questions are going to work. Start
Speaker 5: from the beginning.
Speaker 3: You've spent most of your career researching gender inequality, poverty,
Speaker 3: family policy, and a lot of your research which led
Speaker 3: you to write this book, which was on Obama's reading
Speaker 3: list over the summer.
Speaker 5: Congratulations.
Speaker 3: I never thought I would say this, but could you
Speaker 3: man explain this issue to me?
Speaker 15: Absolutely, I'd be very happy to. I should say, actually,
Speaker 15: it was very nice that President Obama did mention it.
Speaker 15: It was interesting that happened in twenty twenty four. The
Speaker 15: book came out in twenty twenty two. I am not
Speaker 15: going to criticize President Obama right here.
Speaker 5: Well he's never been on TREPSA.
Speaker 15: But I just wondered if it was took a little
Speaker 15: bit of a while for the subject area to become
Speaker 15: almost one that he could talk about publicly, because I
Speaker 15: think part of the problem here, and this is where
Speaker 15: I'll start Man's plaining, please, is that I think a
Speaker 15: lot of people, especially women, feel like to talk about
Speaker 15: the problems of boys and men somehow means you've joined
Speaker 15: the other side, but somehow that means you've turned against women.
Speaker 15: But somehow to support women's rights and women's concerns about
Speaker 15: healthcare or the pay gap or the lack of women
Speaker 15: in politics means that you then can't care about how
Speaker 15: your son's doing in school, about your brother's mental health issue,
Speaker 15: or about your husband's job.
Speaker 1: And that is insane.
Speaker 15: But it is the way that this debate about gender
Speaker 15: is in danger of being framed, and has been for
Speaker 15: the last few years, which is you've got to choose,
Speaker 15: and if you want to care about women, you're not
Speaker 15: allowed to care about men, and sometimes the other way
Speaker 15: around too, and that's just crazy. But I think it's
Speaker 15: part of the problem, and so the book and the
Speaker 15: work in some ways, I think I saw too many
Speaker 15: people who were talking about the issues of boys and
Speaker 15: men doing so that led them almost immediately to say,
Speaker 15: and I know who's to blame, the women, the feminists.
Speaker 15: So if I'm struggling, it's because you're sitting there right,
Speaker 15: it's because you're doing better. And that whole zero sum frame,
Speaker 15: I think is just getting in the way of a
Speaker 15: better conversation about it, because most people are perfectly capable.
Speaker 1: Of thinking two thoughts at once. They can worry about women,
Speaker 1: but that's not why they are women.
Speaker 3: I'm glad of you address it, because I think there
Speaker 3: is that feeling among feminists, particularly in this moment in time,
Speaker 3: when reproductive rights are in peril and there's the you know,
Speaker 3: equal pay and all kinds of that.
Speaker 5: Women are not the feeling.
Speaker 3: The immediate gut reaction is, well, let me grab the
Speaker 3: world's tiniest vile in like, so sorry, roll your eyes
Speaker 3: a bit, right, roll your eyes a little bit, but
Speaker 3: you're absolutely right, and then two things can be true
Speaker 3: at the same time.
Speaker 15: Yes, I get that feeling. I think it's actually important
Speaker 15: not to dismiss that feeling. I think that anybody who
Speaker 15: doesn't find this a slightly difficult conversation, like, how do
Speaker 15: we talk about the rising suicide rates among men, the
Speaker 15: falling wages among men, the troubles that boys are having
Speaker 15: at school. How do we do that in a way
Speaker 15: that makes sure that we don't in any way let
Speaker 15: up the work we still need to do for women.
Speaker 15: So I get that. I think it should be a
Speaker 15: difficult conversation. But just because it's difficult doesn't mean we
Speaker 15: shouldn't have it because someone's having it, and they're having
Speaker 15: it online.
Speaker 1: And I, you know, I'm.
Speaker 15: Afraid that the discomfort that many people have had because
Speaker 15: of their support for women in just acknowledging that there
Speaker 15: are lots of ways in which a lot of men,
Speaker 15: especially young men, are also not doing great today. Just
Speaker 15: failing to acknowledge that it leaves a massive open space
Speaker 15: for a bunch of other people to come along, possibly online,
Speaker 15: and say you are struggling, that's the women's fault, come
Speaker 15: to my website, or vote for me or whatever. And
Speaker 15: so the neglect of male problems is not good, not
Speaker 15: only not for men, but in the long run, it's
Speaker 15: not good for any of us either. It just creates
Speaker 15: a massive vacuum in our culture and in our politics.
Speaker 15: And so I'm very frustrated. I understand the hesitation, but
Speaker 15: unless you go past the hesitation and have this kind
Speaker 15: of conversation, the fact that we lose forty thousand men
Speaker 15: a year to suicide in the US now, and that
Speaker 15: it's risen most among young men since twenty ten, the
Speaker 15: fact that that's a problem doesn't mean that the gender
Speaker 15: pay gap isn't also a problem, And I'm sorry for
Speaker 15: anybody who says I have to choose between caring about
Speaker 15: those two things, and I'm only allowed to care about
Speaker 15: one of them.
Speaker 1: Is no one's friend. And I don't care if on the.
Speaker 16: Left all the right you have to ride together, particularly
Speaker 16: in this moment in time, coming out of the election,
Speaker 16: I think many people thought that this election was going
Speaker 16: to be a referendum on reproductive rights, and as it
Speaker 16: turned out, it was a referendum on how poorly young
Speaker 16: people are doing, particularly young men.
Speaker 3: What do you think Trump's win says about modern American
Speaker 3: masculinity in this moment.
Speaker 15: Well, I think the first thing is to say, of course,
Speaker 15: it was about lots of things, and we're all in
Speaker 15: danger of Like I've written a book about men, and
Speaker 15: so it's in my interest to say it was all
Speaker 15: about men. I don't think it was mostly about that.
Speaker 15: But to the extent, we saw a big gender gap
Speaker 15: among young people, especially in voting. So we saw young
Speaker 15: women move a little bit to the right, but young
Speaker 15: men moved a lot to the right in this last elections,
Speaker 15: the biggest gender gap we've seen in that generation. I
Speaker 15: think what that says is that simply by signaling to men,
Speaker 15: especially to young men, we see you, we like you,
Speaker 15: we're on your podcasts, et cetera. That was in contrast
Speaker 15: to a Democrat message that basically didn't have anything for
Speaker 15: men in it, because it was a sense of like,
Speaker 15: we're the women's party, we're going to double down on
Speaker 15: women's rights. And again it's not that that's there's anything
Speaker 15: wrong with that, but if that's all young men heard,
Speaker 15: and then you've got these guys over here saying, yeah,
Speaker 15: we can see you, we can hear you, and we're
Speaker 15: going to go on the podcast that you're listening to, etc. Well,
Speaker 15: in the end, in politics, something usually beats nothing. And
Speaker 15: on the Democrat side, I'm afraid to say we heard
Speaker 15: deafening silence on these issues because of that fear that
Speaker 15: that would somehow undermine their claim to be a party
Speaker 15: that was on.
Speaker 1: Behalf of women.
Speaker 15: And actually, what we need is a political party and
Speaker 15: political leaders who are on all our sides and.
Speaker 1: Who don't frame up the who care about your son
Speaker 1: and your daughter.
Speaker 3: We can see how the Democrats kind of misstepped in
Speaker 3: that area, and there's room for growth.
Speaker 5: What do you think the Conservatives are getting wrong?
Speaker 1: Their view is that well.
Speaker 15: To be fair, what we get right is they have
Speaker 15: noticed in some way some of the struggles that men have,
Speaker 15: and they then make the move of saying, and we
Speaker 15: know why, it's because of women's rights, it's because of feminism.
Speaker 15: It's because it's because of the rise of women over
Speaker 15: here that we've seen the fall of men over here.
Speaker 15: That is completely untrue, Like we rise together or we
Speaker 15: don't rise at all. Right, we're gonna have families together,
Speaker 15: we're gonna we're gonna make TV shows together. As a society,
Speaker 15: we can't flourish if either men or women are floundering.
Speaker 1: We need both to do well.
Speaker 15: And so what the conservatives do is identify the real
Speaker 15: problems in many cases of boys and men and then
Speaker 15: completely falsely and inaccurately say that's the fault of women
Speaker 15: or the rise of women, and so we.
Speaker 1: Have to go back.
Speaker 15: And so the problem is that so many people feel
Speaker 15: like there's a right, a reactionary right that says we
Speaker 15: need to go back to the way it was when
Speaker 15: you you know, your father was around your grandfather.
Speaker 3: Let's go make amain, Let's make America male again.
Speaker 15: Right, Let's bring back the bread winner male and women
Speaker 15: who know their place and all of that, because it
Speaker 15: was kind of simple then so they harken back. But
Speaker 15: on the left there's a sense of like, well, actually,
Speaker 15: maybe we don't need men. Maybe men are toxic, and
Speaker 15: so maybe you should be more like your sister. And actually,
Speaker 15: if men are given the choice between becoming their father
Speaker 15: or their grandfather and becoming.
Speaker 1: Their sister, then no wonder they're lost.
Speaker 15: And so we have to find a way to talk
Speaker 15: about masculinity and men and what's happening to them in
Speaker 15: a way that is entirely compatible with gender equality, that
Speaker 15: doesn't give any ground at all on what we need
Speaker 15: to do for gender equality, but also doesn't say, and
Speaker 15: I'm afraid people do do this. They say men don't
Speaker 15: have problems. Men are the problem. And if we continue
Speaker 15: to just see men as problems rather than also having problems,
Speaker 15: then it's going to be a very very difficult time
Speaker 15: for us over the next few years.
Speaker 5: You have.
Speaker 3: You have strong feelings about the term toxic masculinity, Is
Speaker 3: that what's your toxic masculinity speaking?
Speaker 1: It could be.
Speaker 15: It's very hard to know, isn't it.
Speaker 1: To find someone?
Speaker 15: Well, I didn't used to be so against it, but
Speaker 15: actually What I noticed is that when you go into
Speaker 15: a conversation with men and you have that deficit frame, right,
Speaker 15: So it's basically, how can make you less toxic?
Speaker 14: Right?
Speaker 1: I have a vision for you.
Speaker 15: You could be a non toxic man. That's not very inspiring.
Speaker 15: I raised three boys to their twenties, and I hope
Speaker 15: I did a better job of saying, in the future, boys,
Speaker 15: you might be actually not poisonous.
Speaker 1: Wouldn't that be amazing?
Speaker 5: It's such a fair point.
Speaker 15: So it actually it pushes men away from a productive conversation.
Speaker 15: You put those two words next to each other. And
Speaker 15: it also has now become so broadened as a term.
Speaker 15: It used to be using a very specific way around
Speaker 15: crime and so on. And it basically didn't exist before
Speaker 15: twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1: Like the term. No one had heard the term before
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. And of course we kind.
Speaker 15: Of know why it might have comeon.
Speaker 3: Happened in twenty sixteen to inspire that.
Speaker 15: Well, actually, one thing is one thing happened twenty sixteen
Speaker 15: is I become a US citizen.
Speaker 3: Oh when a time in America and I can make
Speaker 3: it all agree, how great things have gone?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 15: Here UK by background, and so it drives men away.
Speaker 15: But actually, more fundamentally, I think that it gets us
Speaker 15: into a place where we are just saying, how can
Speaker 15: we take out the bad stuff from men? And that's
Speaker 15: in no way, of course, to say that we don't
Speaker 15: need men to kind of do better and step up.
Speaker 15: But I think that the idea that masculinity itself might
Speaker 15: have something kind of wrong with it is intellectually wrong
Speaker 15: but also politically incredibly dangerous. If you want people to
Speaker 15: really lean into an identity, what you do is you
Speaker 15: pathologize it. What you do is you say something wrong
Speaker 15: with being that, and then watch what people do. And
Speaker 15: so if you want men actually to think less about
Speaker 15: their masculinity, parade their masculinity less, perform their masculinity less,
Speaker 15: don't talk about it as toxic, that's a recruiting sergeant
Speaker 15: for the reactionaries if you do that. So it's an
Speaker 15: incredibly ineffective and I actually think now an offensive term
Speaker 15: and which simply stop using it.
Speaker 5: Will you walk us through.
Speaker 3: Your Girl's rule boys droel theory in your in your book,
Speaker 3: I don't think I call it that well, I think
Speaker 3: that's how I read it.
Speaker 1: Is how I read it.
Speaker 5: Girl's Rule Boys.
Speaker 6: Drowl maybe it was.
Speaker 5: It was just technically girls rule chat.
Speaker 1: I think you're a woman's plaining my book.
Speaker 5: It might be a woman's plaining your book. Tipper cat,
Speaker 5: tipper cat.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 15: So in the education system now we have huge gender
Speaker 15: gaps favoring girls and women. That's relatively new. I mean,
Speaker 15: that's happened in the last twenty thirty years. But now
Speaker 15: if you look at high schools, like the top ten
Speaker 15: percent of high school students, two thirds of them are girls.
Speaker 15: There's actually a bigger gender gap on college campuses today
Speaker 15: in the US than there was in the nineteen seventies.
Speaker 15: But it's the other way around, right, So it's sixty
Speaker 15: forty female male now on college campuses. And I think
Speaker 15: a big part of the reason for that is, I'll
Speaker 15: use your language of rule and drool, which is like,
Speaker 15: as every parent can tell you, on average, boys just
Speaker 15: grow up a little bit later. They mature a little
Speaker 15: bit later, and I'm not pathologizing them for that.
Speaker 5: Do they ever catch up?
Speaker 15: The very good chart I have on this in my book,
Speaker 15: it only goes up to the age of twenty five,
Speaker 15: and we haven't caught up by twenty five?
Speaker 6: Oh wow?
Speaker 15: The chart runs out and it's actually around things like
Speaker 15: and this probably when it come as a surprise to
Speaker 15: any but it's stuff like organizational skill, Like it's stuff
Speaker 15: like turning your homework in or remembering to pick up
Speaker 15: your dry cleaning a little bit later. And it's just
Speaker 15: on the average, like men and boys are just not.
Speaker 1: As quite developed.
Speaker 15: One of the reasons to that, by the way, is
Speaker 15: that girls enter puberty about a year earlier and that
Speaker 15: triggers some brain development. And so the very short version
Speaker 15: of this, and I'm not a biochemist, so I hope
Speaker 15: this is basically right. Puberty causes this bit of your
Speaker 15: brain to grow, and this bit of your brain is
Speaker 15: a bit that tells you to turn in your chemistry homework. Right,
Speaker 15: that was a bit of a simplification, but basically what
Speaker 15: that means is the average fifteen year old girl sixteen
Speaker 15: year old girl is older than the average fifteen year
Speaker 15: old boy in terms of her development. I think that's
Speaker 15: why we see some of these education gaps now. And
Speaker 15: the reason we didn't see them before was because we
Speaker 15: were so busy holding girls down in the education system
Speaker 15: that we couldn't see that. But I think as we've
Speaker 15: made the education system a bit more equal. What we've
Speaker 15: actually seen is this greater maturity of girls just stops
Speaker 15: to show up.
Speaker 3: So what are some tangible solutions that could help fix
Speaker 3: this problem?
Speaker 15: Well, in the education system, I feel the thing I
Speaker 15: probably feel most strongly about is the fact that the
Speaker 15: cratering share of male teachers has to be reversed. So
Speaker 15: since the eighties, we've seen the share of male teachers
Speaker 15: in our classrooms go from thirty three percent to twenty
Speaker 15: three percent. There are now more women in stem than
Speaker 15: there are men in teaching. The first is great, and
Speaker 15: we need to do more, But how can we just
Speaker 15: watch the share of men in our classrooms go down
Speaker 15: and down?
Speaker 1: In town?
Speaker 15: My son has actually who struggled himself in school. He's
Speaker 15: actually just started working as a fifth grade teacher in Baltimore,
Speaker 15: And I couldn't be.
Speaker 1: Proud of all that. I couldn't talent, but.
Speaker 15: He actually he struggled to go to school when he
Speaker 15: was at school. So I did remind him as a
Speaker 15: teacher he will have to go. But that's one and
Speaker 15: we need hundreds of thousands more male teachers because I
Speaker 15: think if we want boys to feel just as we
Speaker 15: want girls to feel, the educations for them, that schools
Speaker 15: for them. We can't just watch the share of men
Speaker 15: in our classrooms go down and down and down every
Speaker 15: year and not do anything about it. And so I
Speaker 15: applaud the Biden administration's push for a million women into construction.
Speaker 15: I applaud all their pushes for women into stem et cetera.
Speaker 1: That's terrific.
Speaker 15: Where are the initiatives to get men into teaching, men
Speaker 15: into mental health care? Those are just as important, and
Speaker 15: we cannot underrepresent men in those key professions. And my
Speaker 15: son's an end of one. We just need about another
Speaker 15: million men to get into teaching. I've done my bit well.
Speaker 3: From your lips to God's ears, thank you for coming on.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having this conversation with me. It's an
Speaker 3: important one and I hope we all continue having it.
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