1 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 1: A code. 2 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 2: Case by definition is code because there's no more leads. Please, 3 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 2: you know, have nothing else to look at. Right Rodney's 4 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 2: story it actually had some question marks on it, and 5 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 2: I do understand why Rodney became a suspect. 6 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 3: I'm Alan Lance Lesser and this is America's crime Lab. 7 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,919 Speaker 3: This is Part two of the Carla Walker case. If 8 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 3: you haven't listened to part one yet, please go back 9 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 3: and listen. It has some really important information that'll bring 10 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 3: you up to speed. It's twenty twenty in Fort Worth, Texas. 11 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 3: It's been forty six years since Carla Walker was abducted 12 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 3: at gunpoint from a Bowling Alley parking lot, and a 13 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 3: cloud of suspicion hangs over Rodney, Carla's boyfriend at the time. 14 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 3: Other people are convinced that he's innocent. Teams of detectives 15 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 3: have worked on the case, but after decades of searching, 16 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 3: they're no closer to finding who killed Carla Walker until now. 17 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 3: Producer Catherine Fenalosa is here to pick up the story. 18 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 3: Hey Catherine, Hey, Alan, So what evidence do the police have? 19 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,279 Speaker 4: So they have a few things. They have the powder 20 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 4: blue dress that Carla was wearing the night of the 21 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 4: dance and they have her underwear and bra. They also 22 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 4: have Rodney's shirt which is covered in blood, and they 23 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 4: have the magazine to the gun that was found in 24 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 4: the parking lot of the bowling Alley. 25 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 3: But we're not sure that the magazine is related to 26 00:01:58,200 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 3: Carla's murder. 27 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 4: Right, yeah, yeah, I mean you have to remember this 28 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 4: is the nineteen seventies in Texas, so it is not 29 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 4: crazy that someone else could have dropped part of their 30 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 4: gun in the parking lot, but the police do collect 31 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 4: it as evidence. The last bit of evidence that we 32 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:14,799 Speaker 4: have is Rodney's story, and. 33 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 3: Are people believing Rodney's story? At this point? 34 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 4: The town is really torn apart over this. So Rodney's 35 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 4: friends and the people that know him well are like, 36 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 4: there is absolutely no way that Rodney did this. He 37 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 4: adored Carla. He's a gentle guy. You have to remember, 38 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 4: Rodney is a senior in high school when this all happens, 39 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 4: and the police are showing up at his baseball games 40 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,359 Speaker 4: to question him. Everywhere he goes in town. He feels 41 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 4: like eyes are on him, and this is you know, Rodney. 42 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 4: He's lost his girlfriend tragically, but he's also lost the 43 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:56,959 Speaker 4: Walker family. Everybody that I talked to described how Rodney 44 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 4: had been really adopted by Carla's family and taken in. 45 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 4: Especially Carla's father, who is this former military just this 46 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 4: very big guy, essentially adopts Rodney. And after this he's 47 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 4: lost that connection to the Walker family. The stress of 48 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 4: everyone in town looking at him finally gets to him, 49 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 4: and he actually leaves Fort Worth and moves to Alaska 50 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 4: just to get out of town. 51 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, is it stressful or is he escaping? 52 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 4: Nobody knows. Jim, Carla's brother, really does every and anything 53 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 4: he can to keep this case in front of detectives. 54 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 4: So when the detectives keep circling back around Rodney, Jim 55 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 4: admits he's like, I don't know, Yeah, let's look into Rodney. 56 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 4: Maybe he did it. His story does seem a little strange. 57 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: I started remembering that cut on his right cheek, and 58 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 2: it wasn't fresh, vishly bleeding, it was coagulating. And remember 59 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 2: me saying that. 60 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 4: There are a few things about this case that do 61 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 4: raise a lot of suspicion. One, Rodney doesn't show up 62 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 4: at Carla's parents' house for a long time after he 63 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 4: says that she was abducted. How long it's at least 64 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 4: an hour after he says she was taken from the car. 65 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 4: Now Rodney will say that it's because he was knocked unconscious, 66 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 4: but who knows. 67 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 3: What's more believable that someone randomly came across their car 68 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 3: in a place they didn't necessarily plan to be attacked them, 69 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 3: abducted Carla, left Rodney her boyfriend alive, and then just 70 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 3: disappeared into the night. I mean, it just all sounds 71 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 3: a little sketchy to me. But at the same time, 72 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 3: if he didn't do it, I mean, what a horrible nightmare. 73 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 4: Please start looking into the Gruger twenty two, which is 74 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,919 Speaker 4: sort of a unique kind of gun. Why so is 75 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 4: the way that the magazine attaches to the rest of 76 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 4: the gun. There is a release button so that it 77 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 4: you know, you can take it off and put more 78 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 4: bullets in and put it back in. And where this 79 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 4: release button is is at the bottom of the shaft 80 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 4: of the gun. So if you believe Rodney that he 81 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 4: was being beaten over the head with the gun, it 82 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 4: could make sense that the attacker's hand accidentally press the 83 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 4: button and the magazine falls out onto the ground of 84 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 4: the parking lot. 85 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I feel like one 86 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 3: could argue that the fact that it was there might 87 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 3: even support Rodney's story. 88 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 4: So I'm going to sort of fast forward to twenty 89 00:05:54,400 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 4: nineteen and Carlo's case catches the attention of Paul hole. 90 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 5: I was suspicious of Rodney. His statements were goofy. He 91 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 5: every time he said something, he said something different, like 92 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 5: dramatically different. 93 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 4: I'm guessing as a true crime fan yourself, you probably 94 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 4: know who Paul Hols is. 95 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he's the detective involved in solving the Golden 96 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 3: State Killer case. So how does he get involved in 97 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 3: Carlo's murder? 98 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 4: Actually, can we take a quick second to talk about 99 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:30,799 Speaker 4: the Golden State Killer case? 100 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. 101 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 4: So that was in the seventies and eighties in California. 102 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, And wasn't there a rash of rapes and 103 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 3: murders happening pretty much all through southern California up to 104 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 3: the Bay Area, which is why he ended up being 105 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 3: called the Golden State Killer because he covered such a 106 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 3: huge part of the state. 107 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 5: This is a case that has over high hundred and 108 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 5: sixty known crimes across fifteen different law enforcement jurisdictions. It 109 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 5: was unsolved for forty four years. Millions of dollars had 110 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 5: been thrown at it, hundreds of investigators had worked on it. 111 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 5: We have over fifty sexually motivated attacks in Northern California. 112 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 5: Husbands were bound up while their wives are being raped 113 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 5: in the next room. And then he moves down to 114 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 5: Southern California and starts bludgeting couples to death in a 115 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 5: couple of cases, single females to death in their own bed. 116 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 4: So initially in the Golden State killer case, police thought 117 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 4: they were searching for two different attackers. They didn't have 118 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 4: any solid leads, but what they did have was evidence 119 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 4: collected from all of these crime scenes. So in the 120 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 4: early stages of DNA technology comes along, investigators upload a 121 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 4: DNA profile from one of these crime scenes into the 122 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 4: federal system, which is called CODIS, and that's basically a 123 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 4: database that can link DNA from crime scene evidence to 124 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 4: a known offender. 125 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 5: As I go, our serial rapist in northern California from 126 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 5: the nineteen seventies is a serial killer down in southern California. 127 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 3: So they know they were looking for one perpetrator, not 128 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 3: too exactly. 129 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 4: But the problem is is that CODIS doesn't tell them 130 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 4: who that person is, just that there is this one 131 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 4: person on a killing and rape spree across California. 132 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 3: But that's also kind of depressing in that it's like 133 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 3: you can only identify the person through DNA with that 134 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 3: system if they've already committed to crime. So it's like 135 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 3: you're not necessarily catching them if they haven't been caught before. 136 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,559 Speaker 4: But things start to change around twenty eighteen with something 137 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 4: called forensic genetic genealogy, Paul Holes and a team of 138 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 4: investigators take evidence from a rape kit that was collected 139 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 4: from one of the Golden State crime scene forty years earlier. 140 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 5: In nineteen eighty Charlene Smith was one of Golden State 141 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 5: Killer's victims out of Venta, and her sex kit was pristine. 142 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 5: A coroner's office had kept it, and we were able 143 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 5: to get a ton of Golden State Killer DNA from 144 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 5: her vaginal swab. 145 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 4: And they're able to create a DNA profile of the 146 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 4: attacker from the seamen and they upload that profile to 147 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 4: genetic genealogy databases to find people the attacker may be 148 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 4: related to. 149 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 5: And we started doing the genealogy process and ultimately found 150 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 5: a second cousin. 151 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 3: Huh. So this is similar to doing your own genetic 152 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,199 Speaker 3: genealogy on a commercial site to find out who your 153 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 3: relatives are. 154 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, and in both cases, you start building out family 155 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 4: trees and usually the information leads you to like third, fourth, 156 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 4: or fifth cousin. So it's somewhat distant relationships, but it's 157 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 4: creating a puzzle, and you're trying to find different pieces 158 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 4: of the puzzle to lead you closer to the person 159 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 4: that you're actually looking for. 160 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can imagine. 161 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 4: So investigators also dig through public records like wedding announcements, obituaries, 162 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 4: things like that to fill in all these missing pieces 163 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 4: of the puzzle. And after doing all of that research, 164 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 4: Paul Hols says, they narrow in on one family tree 165 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:24,599 Speaker 4: in particular. 166 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 5: Ultimately, an investigative assistant out of sack DA's office sends 167 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 5: me an email on my fiftieth birthday and was like, Hey, 168 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 5: here's somebody in the family tree. Its former Auburn police 169 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 5: officer Joseph Dangelo. And I was like, no, there's just 170 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 5: no way. 171 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 4: And here's the crazy part. He was never even a suspect. 172 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,439 Speaker 4: I mean they would have never found him essentially, and 173 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 4: he goes on to plead guilty to thirteen murders and 174 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 4: thirteen rapes, but he also confesses to dozens and dozens 175 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 4: of other violent crimes. And Allen, I have to tell you, 176 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 4: when I went back and really read about what the 177 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 4: Golden State Killer had done, it is like beyond horrific. 178 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 4: This new DNA technology absolutely blows Paul Holes away, and 179 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 4: he's realizing that DNA could hold the answer to solving 180 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 4: lots of other cold cases. 181 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 5: This was the first time it had been used in 182 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 5: this type of investigation, and it really wasn't until several 183 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 5: months later when I was just sitting, you know, in 184 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 5: my man cave and I was sipping bourbon and I 185 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 5: pulled up a photo of DiAngelo. He was slumped over 186 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 5: in the interview room, just absolutely depressed. He never thought 187 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 5: he was going to get caught. And I just looked 188 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 5: at my computer screen. It was just like a gotcha, 189 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 5: you know. And that's really the moment that I finally 190 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 5: had that realization, Okay, we accomplished something pretty big here. 191 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 3: It seems like this is a massive shift in the 192 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 3: way crimes could be solved. So how does this connect 193 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 3: to Carla Walker's murder? 194 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 4: Paul hols now retires from law enforcement, and the Golden 195 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 4: State Killer case really puts him on the map. He 196 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 4: has a TV show, he has a podcast, and he 197 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 4: ends up speaking at crime Con, which is this big 198 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 4: conference for true crime enthusiasts, and one particular year it's 199 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 4: held in Nashville. 200 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 6: Across the concourse over there is Paul Holes and he's 201 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 6: got his hands on his hips like he just got 202 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 6: there and he's just taking it all in. And so 203 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 6: I made a b line for Paul Holes. 204 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 4: So this woman who makes a beeline for Paul Holes 205 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 4: is Diane Kirkandaal. She is at crime Con because she's 206 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 4: part of a group of friends called the Cowtown Cold 207 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 4: Case Checks. It's four women who did not know each other, 208 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 4: but they all grew up in Fort Worth and during 209 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 4: COVID they connected online. 210 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 6: There was a Facebook page that was about four Memories, 211 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 6: and there was a group of us on there that 212 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 6: we're talking about some of the all murders, and we 213 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 6: got to talk in and carrying on, and somebody said, 214 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 6: wouldn't it be fun if we got together and had 215 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 6: dinner and talked about all the murders. 216 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,839 Speaker 4: So they met at a local pancake house and pretty 217 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 4: quickly they found themselves talking about the murder of Carla Walker. 218 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,559 Speaker 4: Diane actually went to high school with Carla. 219 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 3: Really small world. 220 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean they weren't friends because they were a 221 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 4: couple grades apart. But Diane remembers seeing Carla in the 222 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 4: hallway by the lockers and said she was always bubbly 223 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 4: and smiling. And Diane actually lived in the same neighborhood 224 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 4: as Carla's family. Another woman, Kathleen Barnett, is married to 225 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 4: Rodney's best friend. You know, Rodney was Carla's boyfriend at 226 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 4: the time, and Rodney was the best man at Kathleen's wedding. 227 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 4: And there are two more women in the group, Mary 228 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 4: Kay Krueger and Rose Morlock. And Kathleen says they are 229 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 4: all longtime crime junkies. 230 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 7: When I was a little girl, us in all the 231 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,200 Speaker 7: neighborhood kids would sit out on our porch and my 232 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 7: dad would tell us all these horror stories about things like, 233 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 7: you know, the man with a claw coming and getting 234 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 7: you know, at least half of his stories had to 235 00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 7: do with couples on lover's lane, and so when it 236 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 7: happened to Carla and Rodney, it was just like the 237 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 7: worst not mayres coming true. 238 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 4: So after a meeting in person at the pancake restaurant. 239 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 4: These women decide to investigate Carlo's murder on their own. Now, Allen, 240 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 4: true crime is what bonds them, but they will be 241 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 4: the first to tell you that they are wildly different 242 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 4: from one another. 243 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 3: I love it when unsuspecting people connect, you know, when 244 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 3: they're drawn to each other. 245 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 8: I know. 246 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 4: Diane is a retired postal worker and the hippie of 247 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 4: the group. Kathleen is a lawyer. Rose is a self 248 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 4: proclaimed conservative with very salty language, and Mary Kay worked 249 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 4: at radio Shack for years. They love to meet up 250 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 4: for drinks, but they have some unofficial rules. They do 251 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 4: not discuss politics smart but any murder is fair game. 252 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 4: Mary Kay says. They each quickly found their roles in 253 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 4: the group. 254 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 8: We've got our attorney and she does great research. We 255 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 8: have Diane who keeps this organized and on track. Rose 256 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 8: is fearless, and I'm just really nosy. I can't just 257 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 8: speak out and say so, I understand you, you murdered 258 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 8: your neighbor. 259 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 6: You know. 260 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 8: Rose can do that. I can't. But I can sit 261 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 8: with the other neighbors and listen to what they had 262 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 8: to say about it all. 263 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 4: And then one day Diane hears about crime Con. 264 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 6: And I had just retired, and I said, you know, 265 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 6: I think I'm going to give myself a little present 266 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 6: and I'm going to go to Nashville. 267 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 3: I can see why Diane made a bee line for 268 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 3: Paul Holes, because I'm guessing after the Golden State killer 269 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 3: was caught, they're thinking, can we do the same thing 270 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 3: with Carla Walker's case? 271 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. So they put together a folder with all 272 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 4: the details about Carlo's case, and Diane sets off on 273 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 4: this mission to crime Con to get this folder in 274 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 4: the hand of Paul Holes. 275 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 5: And a woman had come up to me and handed 276 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 5: me information on the Carla Walker case. 277 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 6: Then I kind of challenged him at the end and 278 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 6: I said, you know, somebody just needs to work this 279 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 6: case and do the DNA on it because it can 280 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 6: be solved. 281 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 4: And their timing actually couldn't have been any better, because 282 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 4: the TV show that Paul Hole's host is actually looking 283 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 4: for a new case to investigate. Paul's like flipping through 284 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 4: this folder that Diane has handed him and he thinks, 285 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 4: you know what, Carla Walker's murder is pretty interesting. 286 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 5: This very brazen abduction, you know, to take seventeen year 287 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 5: old woman, this girl basically away from her boyfriend who's 288 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 5: a star football player. And sure enough I read into 289 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 5: it and I was like, yeah, I want to see 290 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:57,479 Speaker 5: if I can help out on that case. 291 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 3: So Diane and these women are successful in pulling Paul 292 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 3: holes in the case. So then what happens. 293 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 4: Paul reaches out to Detective Jeff Bennett. Detective Bennett has 294 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 4: just been assigned to the cold case unit in Fort Worth, 295 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 4: and Paul tells Jeff he has a pretty enticing offer. 296 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 4: He says, if he can feature Carla's case on his 297 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 4: TV show, that he'll pay for the DNA testing of 298 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,960 Speaker 4: the evidence in Carla's case. And so that's what happens. 299 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 4: Paul heads down to Fort Worth. He visits the crime scene, 300 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 4: and he starts pouring through all of the police reports. 301 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 5: And then I'm looking at the crime scene. I'm looking 302 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 5: at Carla, where her body was found. I'm looking at 303 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 5: where she was abducted, her boyfriend that she was out 304 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 5: on a date with that night, Rodney, you know, I'm 305 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 5: looking at him and reading his statements. Rodney was first 306 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 5: hand witness, but his statements were goofy. Every time he 307 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 5: said something, he said something different, like dramatically different He 308 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 5: initially said he was shot by this guy who abducted 309 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 5: Carla right out of the passenger side of his car. 310 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 5: Rodney doesn't show up to Carla's house after she was 311 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 5: abducted for an hour and a half, and it was like, well, 312 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 5: where do you go? Why did it take him so long? 313 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 5: And so there has always been a cloud of suspicion 314 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 5: around Rodney, and I was suspicious of Rodney. Yeah, but 315 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 5: it's like, well, let's get to the bottom of this. 316 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 5: Was it Rodney or was it somebody else. 317 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 4: Meanwhile, Detective Bennett is looking through the evidence boxes in 318 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:00,160 Speaker 4: Carla's case. 319 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: The original police reports, autopsy, crime scene reports, detectives notes, interviews, polygraphs, 320 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: you name it. It was in there. 321 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 3: And is he finding any red flags in the police reports? 322 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 4: Actually he does. The first thing that he notices is 323 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 4: kind of a strange detail about how Carla's body was found. 324 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: She was in the callvert, she still had her dress on, 325 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: had been lifted up. All of her jewelry was intact, 326 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: except for one unusual aspect of the case. Rodney had 327 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: given Carla a promise ring a couple of months prior 328 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: to this, and Carla's promise ring was found just outside 329 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: the in the dark. Why is this promise ring off 330 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: of Carla's hand and why is it in the dark. 331 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 3: So it's not looking so great for Rodney. There are 332 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 3: questions about a story, the timeline, and now the promise ring. 333 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I don't know if you know what a 334 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 4: promise ring is. Not entirely no, it is basically stating 335 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 4: your intentions to one day get married. They're still both 336 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 4: in high school, so this is sort of a like, 337 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 4: I am committed to you, Carla, and one day I 338 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 4: will put an engagement ring on your finger. 339 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 3: So they were pretty serious. Yeah, and I feel like 340 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 3: the fact that the promise ring is the only piece 341 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 3: of jewelry taken off Carla's body and tossed in the dirt, 342 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 3: that could be a message like maybe they got in 343 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 3: a fight or something, Carla takes off the ring or 344 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 3: he takes off the ring. I mean, there are all 345 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 3: kinds of things that could have happened that could have 346 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 3: made Rodney angry that leads him to snapping in some way. 347 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 4: And as he's reading through all of the original police reports, 348 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 4: the case kind of seems to get even stranger. 349 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: When Carlo's toxicology came back, she had morphine in her system, 350 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 1: So the question was did the killer inject her with morphine? 351 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 1: Why is there morphine in Carlo's body? 352 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 3: Morphine? Wait, that's a whole other can of worms then, 353 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 3: because then you wonder whether it was premeditated in some way, 354 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 3: which again it's like who besides Rodney or his friends 355 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 3: would know where they were going to be in the 356 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 3: parking lot that night unless someone secretly followed them there. 357 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 4: I told you, this case gets weirder by the minute. 358 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 4: Detective Bennett now needs to start his own investigation, and 359 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 4: the first thing he does is he makes a whole 360 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 4: new suspect list. 361 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: And a lot of individuals had been eliminated because they 362 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: passed a polygraph. And I think we know today the 363 00:22:55,560 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 1: dependability of these polygraphs, especially then, not something that you 364 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: can really rely on. So if there was no other 365 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,879 Speaker 1: reason that somebody was eliminated, they went back on my 366 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: suspect list. 367 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 4: He ends up with eighty five people on his suspect list, 368 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 4: and he goes out and he interviews every single person 369 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 4: that he can find again, and he collects DNA samples 370 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 4: from every single person that he talks to. 371 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: We still had Carla's clothing, her dress, her bra, her peonies. 372 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 1: Rodney's shirt was still an evidence, very bloodied. So it 373 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 1: was that was exciting to see all of that evidence 374 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: and know that we've got a possibility to get some 375 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 1: DNA off of this clothing. 376 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 3: And what clothing do they decide to test? 377 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,160 Speaker 4: They decide to test Carlo's brass. 378 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 5: And so I ended up having fort Worth send that 379 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 5: sample to a lab that we had used for the 380 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 5: Golden Staate killer case. This analyst found this semen stain 381 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 5: off of Carla's brastrap. There was only one person, one 382 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 5: DNA profile in that and it was enough to be 383 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 5: able to search Codis, the FBI's DNA data bank. 384 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 4: So they run the DNA. 385 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 5: And there's no hit. 386 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,479 Speaker 3: Okay, hang on a second. We know the genetic makeup 387 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 3: of the mystery person who killed Carla, but because he 388 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 3: hasn't been caught for a crime before, his name isn't 389 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 3: in the FBI database, so we don't know who he is. 390 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 4: Frustrating. That's why this tool is not great for finding 391 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 4: an attacker. It's great for confirming who they are, but 392 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 4: this doesn't discard Paula. He stays optimistic because the DNA 393 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:08,360 Speaker 4: on Carlo's brasstrap was really well preserved and it wasn't contaminated. 394 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 5: It was an amazing sample. Ten nanograms. This is a 395 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 5: huge amount of DNA relatively speaking for a forensic sample, 396 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 5: and I was excited. I was like, let's get that 397 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 5: off and do genealogy, kind of like in. 398 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 3: The Golden State killer case. 399 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 4: Yep, but there's a problem. 400 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 5: They had consumed the entire sample and didn't get a result. 401 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 4: So every time you test DNA you destroy it in 402 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 4: the process, so it's a one shot deal. 403 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 5: My god, the best sample in the world was completely 404 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 5: consumed and no result was obtained, and at that point 405 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 5: I thought I had killed the Carla Walker case. 406 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: I have to tell you. It was devastating because I 407 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: had had full hope that this lab was going to 408 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: be able to yield results and do the genetic genealogy 409 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,679 Speaker 1: and give us a lead on an individual, and it 410 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: didn't happen. Now you're told the usable DNA that you 411 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: have is exhausted, it's consumed, and I mean, it's a 412 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: gut punch. 413 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 3: So does Carla's case go back to being a cold case? 414 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 4: Not exactly. I mean Paul's show about Carlo's murder airs, 415 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 4: but they leave it kind of open ended because it's 416 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 4: not solved yet. But there are two really important people, 417 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 4: a husband and wife who see the program. 418 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 3: Wait who are they? 419 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,360 Speaker 4: So their names are David and kristin Middleman, and they're 420 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 4: actually watching the show embed at home on a laptop 421 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 4: and they are just completely struck by this show because 422 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 4: they also happened to be the founders of a lab 423 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 4: Texas called Authorm. Their lab specializes in testing DNA evidence 424 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 4: from crime scenes. 425 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 9: We're parents of children around Carla's age at the time, 426 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 9: and so it was really difficult to process what it 427 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 9: would feel like if you were her family. I think 428 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 9: the episode just left me wanting to help. That's what 429 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 9: I felt most is can we help? 430 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:52,400 Speaker 4: After watching the episode, Kristen's husband, David, calls Paul and 431 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 4: he says, look, I've developed this new DNA technology and 432 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 4: it's called forensic grade genome sequencing, and I think we 433 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 4: can work on Carla's case. 434 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 9: I think that was one of the hardest phone calls 435 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 9: I heard, because Paul just lost his voice and you 436 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 9: could hear he was shaken, and he said it didn't work. 437 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 9: We ruined the case. The evidence was consumed and there's 438 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 9: not enough left to test again. And David said, well, 439 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 9: how much is left? 440 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 5: And I was like, okay, this is what I've got. 441 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 5: I had found a second sample off of Carla's dress, 442 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 5: but it was a mixed sample. It had a male 443 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 5: DNA plus Carla's. 444 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 9: DNA, and David said, well, I would like to give 445 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 9: it a try. What do you have to lose? 446 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 3: Tell me about this second DNA sample they found in 447 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 3: Carla's dress. 448 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 4: Unlike the semen that was found on her bra strap, 449 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 4: which was a single source of DNA, her dress has 450 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 4: DNA from both the killer and from Carla. So you 451 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 4: can kind of imagine how that would make it a 452 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 4: lot more difficult to get a DNA profile of just 453 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 4: the assailant because it's mixed up. 454 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that would sound almost impossible to me. 455 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 4: Okay, So it gets even harder because the second sample 456 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 4: was incredibly tiny. It was just a few nanograms. You 457 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 4: can't even see it with the naked eye. So if 458 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 4: I touch your arm, Alan, I'm essentially leaving a couple 459 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 4: hundred of my cells on your arm. Wow, We're talking 460 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 4: about a handful of cells that they are testing. 461 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 9: How do they Wow? 462 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 3: I can't imagine even being able to collect that. 463 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: That's incredible, And I think Paul was a little concerned 464 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: about leading us down a bad path because he knew 465 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: that this is all we had left. But he said, 466 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: you can call David, you can talk to him. He says, 467 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: he has technology that can work with really small amounts 468 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: of DNA. 469 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 4: So you have to remember that Detective Bennett has already 470 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 4: been burnt once before when the other lab used up 471 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 4: the entire DNA sample when testing it. So he knows 472 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 4: that this is his last chance, and if this does 473 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 4: not go well, he literally has no DNA evidence left 474 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,959 Speaker 4: in the case before working with Authorm. He says, listen, 475 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 4: I need to come down there and see the lab 476 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 4: for myself. 477 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I completely understand why he's so nervous. 478 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 3: Everything is writing on this It's it's high stakes to 479 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 3: solve this case. 480 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 4: It's totally high stakes. And what David and Kristen are 481 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 4: doing in their lab is also pretty much brand new. 482 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 4: This is a major gamble that he's taking. The easiest 483 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 4: way to understand it is that other labs are generally 484 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 4: using the technology that's similar to the commercial genealogy sites 485 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 4: that we were talking about before. Like I want to 486 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 4: figure out, you know, where my long lost relatives are. 487 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 3: That kind of thing, right where you send in DNA 488 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 3: samples like a mouth swab, and then they tell you 489 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 3: who you're related to. 490 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 4: That kind of thing exactly, and when you do I 491 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 4: don't know if you've ever done that, but that's taking fresh, 492 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 4: single source DNA. So you swab your mouth, you place 493 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 4: it cleanly into a sealed container, and you send it 494 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 4: off to be analyzed by the lab. And then when 495 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 4: it gets to the lab, it's properly stored in a 496 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 4: temperature controlled setting under like the perfect circumstances. 497 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can imagine that's far different from what they're 498 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 3: dealing with here. 499 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 4: Exactly, because, as Kristen Middleman says, crime scene evidence, especially 500 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 4: in Carla Walker's case, is the exact opposite. 501 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 9: Her body was found outdoors. It was found outdoors three 502 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 9: days after she was abducted, So there was plant DNA, 503 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 9: animal DNA. The DNA at the crime scene had been 504 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 9: subjected to heat in Texas cold, that is degraded DNA, 505 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 9: And if you apply methods that are purpose built for 506 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 9: fresh samples, you often just missed the answer. 507 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 3: On top of all that contamination Carla's case was more 508 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 3: than forty years old, so when they collected the evidence, 509 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 3: no one's thinking you can even test for DNA one day, 510 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 3: So I'm afraid to ask, but how is it stored. 511 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 4: In brown paper bags? 512 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: Ugh? 513 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 4: I know, but it was actually completely standard at the time. 514 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 4: And there's something else that Detective Bennett learns when he 515 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 4: visits Kristen and David in their lab. So codis looks 516 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 4: at twenty DNA markers to build a profile, but Kristen says, 517 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 4: this new method that they've developed looks at like one 518 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 4: hundred one thousand, up to one million DNA markers. 519 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 9: We knew we were working with the last bit of 520 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 9: sample that was left. We were going to be the 521 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 9: last chance, So it was it was a heavy moment 522 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,959 Speaker 9: for sure. If it didn't work, Carlo would never get justice, 523 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 9: her family would never find out the truth. Perpetrator would 524 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 9: have gotten away with the crime. The whole community would 525 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 9: have been less safe because that perpetrator continued to live 526 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 9: in that community. The stakes are huge every single time. 527 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 4: After its visit to the lab, Detective Bennett decides that 528 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 4: this new technology is literally his only hope, so he 529 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 4: ships off the final tiny bits of DNA evidence from 530 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 4: Carla's dress to the lab and then he just has 531 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 4: to sit back and wait to hear from David Middleman. 532 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: He called us a few days after receiving it and said, hey, 533 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: it's not for Nana Grim, it's less than that. We 534 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: were sitting on pins and needles. And I remember it 535 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: was July fourth. I get a phone call and I 536 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 1: see that it's David Middleman calling. So I knew that 537 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: if he's calling me on a holiday, I knew that 538 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: he had an answer. And I could not answer the 539 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: phone fast enough, and David says, well, Jeff, we got 540 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:39,080 Speaker 1: a profile from your DNA. It was a goose bump moment. 541 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,879 Speaker 3: Next time on America's Crime Lab. 542 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 1: I'll never forget being able to call Jim and tell 543 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: him we arrested the individual who murdered your sister. A 544 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: case closed. 545 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 5: I still was unconvinced we were led based off of 546 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 5: a DNA technology, but this was the first time it 547 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 5: had been used in this type of investigation, So how 548 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 5: much confidence could I I put into it. 549 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 9: Detectives don't have a scientific background in training, and they're 550 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 9: somehow supposed to decipher whether or not someone's telling them 551 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 9: the truth or a lie. 552 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: One of the first things he did is he lifted 553 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 1: up his hands and he goes, I didn't do it. 554 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 3: America's Crime Lab is produced by Rococo Punch for Kaleidoscope. 555 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 3: Erica Lance is our story editor, and sound design is 556 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 3: by David Woji. Our producing team is Catherine Fedalosa and 557 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 3: Jessica Albert. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne, Mangesh Hadi 558 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 3: Gadour and David and Kristin Middleman and from iHeart Katrina 559 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 3: Norville and Ali Perry. Special thanks to Connell Byrne, Will Pearson, 560 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 3: Carrie Lieberman, Nikki Etour, Nathan Etowski, John Burbank, and the 561 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:04,240 Speaker 3: entire higher team at Authorm. I'm Alan Lance lessor thanks 562 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 3: for listening.