1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: Hi, this is newt Twenty twenty is going to be 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: one of the most extraordinary election years of our lifetime. 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: I want to invite you to join my Inner Circle 4 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: as we discuss each twist and turn in the presidential race. 5 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: In my members only Inner Circle Club, you'll receive special 6 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: flash briefings, online events, and members only audio reports from 7 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: me and my team. Here is a special offer for 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: my podcast listeners. 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Join my Inner Circle today at Newtcenter 13 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: Circle dot com slash Podcast use the Code podcast at checkout. 14 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: Sign up today at Newtcenter Circle dot com slash podcast 15 00:00:51,880 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: and use the Code podcast Hurry this Offtway Spires, February fourteenth. 16 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: On this episode of Nettworld, as we continue to hear 17 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 1: about the trade war with China and other countries, I 18 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: wanted to attempt to provide context as to why the 19 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: trade discussion is so important and how our international trade 20 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: policy affects the prosperity of American businesses. On this episode, 21 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: we'll look at how foreign countries cheat in global trade, 22 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: including exploring the trade issues of subsidies, dumping, and transshipment. 23 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: And you'll meet the CEOs of two American owned businesses 24 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: who will explain how their companies were affected by global 25 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: trade and equities. My guests are David J. Ross, international 26 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: trade specialist and partner at wilmer Hale, Roddy Dowd, CEO 27 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: of Charlotte Pipe and Foundry, and Paul Wellborn, President and 28 00:01:54,800 --> 00:02:08,959 Speaker 1: CEO of Wellborn Cabinet, Inc. Here's David Ross of wilmer Hale. 29 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us to talk about the emerging 30 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 1: complexities of the international trade. You're a wilmer Hail now, 31 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,959 Speaker 1: but you really have quite a background in international trade. 32 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: When I went to law school, I focused on international 33 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: trade and got a master's in international law in additions 34 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: to my law degree, and then went from law school 35 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,679 Speaker 1: to the Commerce Department to practice trade law, and I 36 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: found now for twenty five years doing trade in different capacities. 37 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: Part of what I'm struck by as a historian is 38 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: that the issue of trade negotiation and trade enforcement is 39 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:58,239 Speaker 1: constantly evolving. One decade solutions just lead to really smart 40 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: people figuring out new approaches, and then you have another 41 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,519 Speaker 1: generation finding ways to try to get around that. A 42 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: long time ago, I was the ranking Republican on the 43 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: Aviation Subcommittee, and I used to represent the Atlanta Airport. 44 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: It's a fascinating business, but it's one where our trade 45 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: policies have not been as helpful at putting together the 46 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: real world as opposed to the theoretical world. You've always 47 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: had these challenges of foreign government owned operations that find 48 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: ways to get around the rules. That's right. You were 49 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 1: working on the issue at the dawn of the open 50 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: sky Earth. So historically aviation was done through bilateral agreements 51 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: where there were strict restrictions on who could serve the market, 52 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: how many flights per day, and whatnot. Then in the 53 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: late eighties early nineties, the US developed this open sky 54 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: approach where the basic theory was that the government would 55 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: get out of the way and airlines would have full 56 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: freedom to fly where they wanted based on market demand. 57 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,119 Speaker 1: It actually it worked out pretty well for the most part. 58 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: But it's interesting if you look back at the original 59 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: DOT policy statement that they issued in nineteen ninety five, 60 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: one thing they touched on was the idea that subsidy 61 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: could distort competition, but they said, I remember this was 62 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: the early nineties when capitalism was really on the march 63 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: and communism headfallen. They said, it's not really a big 64 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: problem though, because no government can control all aspects of 65 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: its air traffic infrastructure. And that was two of the time, 66 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: but it hasn't borne out in a few cases over 67 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: the last twenty years, the big examples being in the 68 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: UAE and Cutter, who have decided that they were going 69 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: to make their aviation systems core to their economy and 70 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 1: to really massively grow their airlines with a lot of 71 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: subsidy to make that possible, and that's had a real 72 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: impact on carries around the world. They've basically been able 73 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: to take oil and gas money to subsidize these airlines 74 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 1: in a way that it's totally alien from how we 75 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 1: do things. That's exactly right, and it's an issue. The 76 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: three areas are Dubai and Abu Dhabi in the UAE, 77 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 1: and then Cutter. They're all doing more or less the 78 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: same thing. They're using money to massively expand their airlines. 79 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: They're buying huge wide body fleets of aircraft, much bigger 80 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: fleets than anyone else, and because these countries are so small, 81 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 1: they don't have a whole lot of a domestic market. 82 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: So what they've done is they've gone out and they're 83 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 1: targeting all the international markets and traffic from Asia to Europe, 84 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: from Asia to the US. Instead of the traditional way 85 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: of serving those markets, which was direct from the US 86 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: or one stop via Europe, they're capturing those traffic flows 87 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: and flowing them through the Gulf. And they're doing that 88 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: with really aggressive capacity into the market, really aggressive pricing, 89 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: and then government subsidy which allows them to keep flying 90 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: despite the losses that that results in. As I understand it, 91 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: even in their agreement to how they would cut back 92 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: to some they've now found new ways to it around this, 93 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: that's right. So basically what happened was the US airlines 94 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: went to the US government and they said, look, we've 95 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: documented around fifty billion dollars in subsidies that flowed into 96 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: these airlines over the last ten years, and it's had 97 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: a really significant impact on the market. It's hurting everybody. 98 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: And so the comp administration negotiated agreements with Cutter and 99 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 1: with the UAE that put some rules in place about 100 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 1: market oriented financing and transparency, and one important part of 101 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: that was the UAE and Cutter both gave assurances to 102 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: the US government that their airlines weren't going to be 103 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: launching flights between the US and Europe. And that was 104 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: really important because the overcapacity that's been put into the 105 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: market has basically closed the Middle East to US airlines. 106 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: It's no longer possible to fly theres you can't anymore 107 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: fly at US air line to the Middle East. It's 108 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: had a really big impact elsewhere. The US airlines didn't 109 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,600 Speaker 1: want to see that happen on the Transatlantic and so 110 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: that was a really important commitment. After the deal was struck, 111 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: Cutter Airways what they did was they a forty nine 112 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: percent interest in this little Sardinian airline called Meridiana, which 113 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: was tiny airline with about ten aircraft. It was losing 114 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: about fifty million dollars a year, was almost bankrupt. And 115 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 1: what Cutter did was they put about one hundred million 116 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: dollars into the airline in various ways. They gave them 117 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: a bunch of Cutter Airways a three thirty aircraft, said 118 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: they were going to massively expand Meridiana, rename it air 119 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: Italy and use that then to serve the US europe market. 120 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: They've announced flights to New York and to Miami, San Francisco, 121 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: Los Angeles Air Italy. They're doing what Cutter said it 122 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: wouldn't do, and they're massively underpricing on fairs and trying 123 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 1: to buy market share. Cutters found a way to violate 124 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: the agreement by a clever loophole. That's exactly right. It's 125 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: basically they're using them like a shell, really a corporate 126 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: shell that's Cutter Airways for all intents and purposes, except 127 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: that it says Air Italy, but their Cutter Airways aircraft. 128 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: There's a lot of former Cutter Airways executives. The uniform 129 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: arms are Cutter Airways uniforms but with an Air Italy logo. 130 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: So it's really Cutter and all. But name why has 131 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: the US government not responded, Well, they have been looking 132 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: at it, and they've raised concerns with Cutter. But it's 133 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: still in play and we'll see where that issue is 134 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: going to go. But it's not yet self. Isn't not 135 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: just with Cutter. Isn't part of the game all around 136 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: the world to take an advantage and then assume that 137 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: it takes two, three, four years, there's not much of 138 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: a clawback capacity to get the money back once it's 139 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: already done. You're exactly right, so you really can't put 140 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: the genie back in the bottle. And so the question 141 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: is what's going to happen going forward here Italy. Right 142 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: now they have five of these wide body aircraft from Cutter, 143 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: so at this point they have five US routes, but 144 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: they're talking about expanding that by about four percent up 145 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: to twenty twenty five craft fleet within the next couple 146 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: of years. So they're just going to keep expanding, and 147 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: if you don't do something about it, it's going to 148 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: be too late and then you have negative impact on 149 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: the US air lines. But it isn't all. Italia also 150 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: subsidiz my third party. The Italian government gave money to 151 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: Alatalia a couple of years ago, and now the European 152 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: Commission is looking at whether that money violates EU rules 153 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,679 Speaker 1: on state aid, because the EU has very strict anti 154 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: subsidy rules that affect what governments can give their companies, 155 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: but ironically they don't apply if the money is coming 156 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: from a foreign government. So if Cutter gives money to 157 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: air Italy that's not covered by the rules. But if 158 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: the Italian government gets money to Altalia, it is covered 159 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: by their rules. So you could have a situation where 160 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: Alatalia may have to pay that money back if it's 161 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: not to be a violation, but there's no easy mechanism 162 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: under EU rules for Italy to give its money back. 163 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: Part of the reason I'm intrigued with this is not 164 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: only do you have these two countries that have huge 165 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: amounts of cash who are trying to dominate the international 166 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: airline system, but you also have the Spectru coming down 167 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: the road of whatever the Chinese you're gonna end up doing, 168 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: both in terms of building aircraft and in terms of 169 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: competing with the subsidies because they do in a whole 170 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: range of Doesn't this require that we develop a much 171 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: faster turnaround of fact finding and complaining and filing than 172 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: we currently have. We probably need better rules in the 173 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: aviation space than we currently have on these kinds of issues, 174 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: both more detailed and comprehensive rules on subsidy and then 175 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,359 Speaker 1: also rules on transparency. I mean, one of the challenges 176 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: that's been an issue with the UAE airlines and the 177 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 1: Cutter airlines and with a Italy is for the most part, 178 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,839 Speaker 1: they don't publish their financial statements and so it's very 179 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: hard to dig up the evidence you need to show 180 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: that their subsidies. So if there were requirements to publish 181 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 1: that kind of information, it would be easier to figure 182 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: out sooner what's going on and to take action to 183 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: address it. And if you have the subside rules, you 184 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: can actually then ideally have prohibitions on the front end 185 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: of what's allowable, and then if you can't get that, 186 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: at least have the ability to challenge and get a 187 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: remedy after the fact that the cause of injury does. 188 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: See European Union Anti Subsidy provision. That sense provide something 189 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: worth our looking at in terms of what are their 190 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: enforcement mechanisms. It's an interesting rule. It applied within the EU, 191 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: and so the US would have to decide whether they 192 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: wanted to have a rule within the US that wouldn't 193 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: allow state level subsidies. But it's a good model for 194 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: the idea of new international rules for subsidies, and it's 195 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: actually something that the Trump administration has been working on 196 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: in other contacts, like in the US Mexico Canada Agreement. 197 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: They've got a really good chapter on state owned enterprises 198 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: that would prohibit a lot of what's going on in 199 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: the aviation sector, and they haven't really done that because 200 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: of concerns about what's going on in Canada or Mexico. 201 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: But as you say, really to set the stage for 202 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: the future and future negotiations. So if, for example, there 203 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: were ever talks about doing any kind of a negotiation 204 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: with China, you might be able to then have a 205 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: precedent for good rules to get out this kind of 206 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: problem at the front end. I mean, I'm personally fascinated. 207 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 1: As I said, I used to be the ranking member 208 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 1: the aviation subpody. But as an everyday American, how does 209 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: all this affect me? Why should I care about this? Well, 210 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: it's interesting. I mean, obviously with any issues with subsidies, 211 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: there's good there's bad. From the consumer perspective. On the 212 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 1: one hand, you get good service at low prices, and 213 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: who doesn't like that. But on the other hand, first 214 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: of all, it impacts us jobs. Secondly, it can over 215 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: time reduce choice and actually leave you in a worse position. 216 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: So if we're staying on the aviation sector as an example, 217 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: now you've had the golf subsidies. It's no longer possible 218 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: to fly US airline to the Middle East. The US 219 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: airlines have canceled all their routes to the Middle East 220 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: because they weren't profitable anymore because of the overcapacity. Thirdly, 221 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: because US airlines have what's called a hub and spoke 222 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: network system, where you have your hubs that then are 223 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: fed by smaller flights all around the country. As you 224 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: start to lose your international flying, it then calls into 225 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: question your ability to keep flying the smaller routes to 226 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 1: like smaller US cities and midsize and smaller towns, and 227 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: so they start to have a breakdown in the system. 228 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: Now there's some other areas we have this subsidy problem, 229 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: and maybe one of the most important is the question 230 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: of solar cells in the guida, which the Chinese in 231 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: particular have really cross subsidizing ways designed to take control 232 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: of the entire market. Can you comment on that. The 233 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 1: solar industry is one that has been dramatically impacted by 234 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: Chinese subsidies and Chinese dumping of solar cells in the 235 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: US market. Going back to probably about eight or ten 236 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 1: years ago, you had a big growth in the Chinese industry, 237 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,760 Speaker 1: and then a big growth in Chinese X force to 238 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: the US at really low prices, and it really hammered 239 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: the US industry. It's driven most of the industry out 240 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: of business and left them in a really hard spot. 241 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,479 Speaker 1: So they filed what are called anti dumping and counterbilling 242 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: duty cases, so those are challenging Chinese dumping practices and 243 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: Chinese subsidies, and they got remedies from the Commerce Department. 244 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: But what ended up happening was the Chinese then they 245 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: moved their production to Taiwan or to Malaysia, Singapore, Germany 246 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: to get around the duties and started manufacturing there instead. 247 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: So the US industry tried to follow them by filing 248 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: new cases in all those places with some success. That's 249 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: just one example of what's been an issue in China 250 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: now for twenty years. It's really a massive subsidy in 251 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: a whole range of sectors. Isn't this whole question of 252 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 1: transshipment a significant problem in that sense that whether it's 253 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 1: in steel, origin, aluminum, or what have you, transshipment is 254 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: one of the big problems that US policymakers have struggled 255 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 1: to deal with. Where countries have trade remedies put on 256 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: their products, and then they try to find ways to 257 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: get around those restrictions. Aluminum is one of the sectors 258 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: that's really been impacted by Chinese subsidy. The Commerce Department 259 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: had put trade actions in place on Chinese aluminum. What 260 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: this particular producer is accused of doing was they sent 261 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 1: what they described as aluminum pallettes into the United States, 262 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: and palettes aren't anything that was subject to trade duties, 263 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: and then the idea was once they come into the 264 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: United States without duties, then they would just melt them 265 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: down and turn them into products that actually are covered 266 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: by the duties, so as a way of trying to 267 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: circumvent those restrictions. And actually, according to the DOJ indictment 268 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: that was announced, they avoided about two billion dollars in 269 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: US tariffs through this mechanisms. It's a really big case, 270 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: I think, the biggest case ever and now they've been indicted. 271 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: These various methods, whether it's dumping, or it's transshipment, or 272 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: it is the kind of subsidies we described with gut 273 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: or UAE, all of these things ultimately end up killing 274 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: American companies, in American jobs, and cutting off the resources 275 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: for future innovation. That's exactly right. You end up with 276 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: a situation where there may be some short term consumer benefit, 277 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: but over the longer term, you're costing US jobs, and 278 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: you're taking the jobs that would be created in the 279 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: United States and they're being created in the foreign countries instead, 280 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: and that's not good for the US economy. It's not 281 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: politically sustainable either. I really really appreciate you're taking the time. Well, 282 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: it's been a real pleasure of thank you. When we 283 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: come back. Paul Wellburn, CEO of Wellburn Cabinets, discusses the 284 00:15:51,960 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: trade issue of dumping but his company has faced. You've 285 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: been listening to my conversations with Leo Grillo, founder of 286 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: Delta Rescue. Delta Rescue is celebrating forty years of saving 287 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: animals and providing love to abandon dogs and cats. Delta 288 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: Rescue was the first no kill shelter in the United 289 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: States and now the largest care for life sanctuary of 290 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: his kind in the world. The stories that Leo shared 291 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: on my show, like Delta, a black Doberman that started 292 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: this organization, all the way to the thirty five dogs 293 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: Leo found while hiking in The Angeles National Park, just 294 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: warmed my heart. Delta Rescue continues to grow the on 295 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: site hospital, his staff seven days a week, with veterinarians 296 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: and state of the art equipment. Delta Rescue treats all 297 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: diseases and conditions and up to fifteen hundred dogs, cats 298 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: and horses. Delta Rescue is an incredible cause, and we 299 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: know we can't take our money with us when we leave, 300 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 1: nor do we want to leave it to the irs. 301 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 1: Let's help our furry friends today and support this amazing cause. 302 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: Go to Delta Rescue dot org slash nut for information 303 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: on donations and getting involved. And right now there's some 304 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: new entertaining content streaming on the site. Nuts World listeners 305 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,719 Speaker 1: can go to the site for two free family movies today, 306 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,199 Speaker 1: Magic starring Christopher Lloyd and directed by Robert Davey and 307 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: The Rescuer starring Leo Grillo. Enjoy these two heartwarming movies 308 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: for us animal lovers. Go to Delta Rescue dot org 309 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: slash nut. That's Delta Rescue dot org slash n e wt. 310 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: Here's Paul Welburne, CEO of Wellborn Cabins. Your company goes 311 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 1: back now fifty eight years. I started on hiseo right 312 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: here sixty years ago, a brother and I started making 313 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 1: our first tabinets in Pensacola, Florida, will have there for 314 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: a short time and built our first kitchen down in 315 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 1: about nineteen fifty seven. Was your original market just around 316 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: you're a part of Alabama or what was your market? 317 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: We started originally my father being a home builder, remodeling, 318 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: ruf and so on. My brother and I helped him 319 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: as we grew up and actually started making cabinets for 320 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 1: the home that he was building. And then you gradually 321 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: developed this entire line of cabinetry. And when did you 322 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: first notice the involvement of the Chinese. I would say 323 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: probably fifteen years ago, but the last four years they 324 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: have really stepped up what they do. As they did 325 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: in the furniture industry. They will start making the complex, 326 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: labor intensive parts, then they'll move into the more complete tables, chairs, 327 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 1: and so long, and pretty soon, if you're furniture company, 328 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: you became a distributor for them in most cases, and 329 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: then they put their own distribution in and bypassed the 330 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: furniture companies altogether. And about one hundred and thirty plants 331 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: closed down around the year two thousand, so the same 332 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: thing basically has been happening in the cabinet the industry 333 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: the last few years, and fortunately, I think we got 334 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: a little bit of a head of start. I watched 335 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: this thing through the furniture design magazines through the years, 336 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 1: and they are doing exactly the same basic thing in 337 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: the cabinet industry. And there's approximate two hundred and fifty 338 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: thousand jobs at stake here. What are the Chinese advantages? 339 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: What are the things they do that's different than just 340 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: traditional competition in the Chinese government will actually help the 341 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: Chinese company. They'll give them like in the case apply 342 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: would they give them logs. In our case, they'll do 343 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 1: anything what you call dumping. If it costs one hundred 344 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: fifty dollars to build a cabinet, they'll settled over here 345 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 1: for fifty that's with the assistance of the government. What 346 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: it is, this is illegal according to the laws of 347 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: our country to dump and cause us to lose our 348 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: jobs in this country. Here's what we find it when 349 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: we started gathering the data about two years ago. China 350 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: has about thirty different substy programs that they offer companies 351 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: over there, and they can range anything from giving the 352 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: material to build a product, elect fristy bills, those kinds 353 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 1: of things on the subsidy side, and that's where when 354 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: China does that course, that gives them an advantage and 355 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: all of a sudden the turnaround and not only subsidized, 356 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: but they also start dumping. And that's why these cases 357 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: have two components. Dumping means they just come in and 358 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: they look at an industry and they see a kitchen 359 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: cabinet industry of about ten billion dollars and they say, 360 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: we want it. So they undersell that market cheaper than 361 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: what we can even produce it and sell it till 362 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: the domestic market has gone, and then they'll raise their 363 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 1: pricessulti is what happens. That's what China has been doing. 364 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: It takes them a while to navigate through an industry 365 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: and learn, you know, all the channels to market and 366 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: things like that. But when they finally figure it out, 367 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: that's they go pretty much full force. And since the 368 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 1: recession is when they really have done that to our industry. 369 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: Like my father said, we've been watching them for somewhere 370 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: around fifteen years coming to our trade shows. We manufacture 371 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,439 Speaker 1: everything in house, make our own parts, components, and we 372 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: do it all with domestic hardwoods, domestic clowdwoods, everything that 373 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: we use. We do our absolute best to keep domestic here. 374 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: But when we look at the costs that they're selling products, 375 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: we can take our labor costs and our material costs 376 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,679 Speaker 1: to zero and they're still under our prices. It's just 377 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 1: an unfair and like I said, this story is in 378 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 1: many different industries out there. This is just one of many. 379 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: The thing that they have done with some of the 380 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: trade laws in the last few years is you don't 381 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: have to basically lose your industry before you can win 382 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: a case. Here's Paul Welburn, CEO of Wellborn Cabints. As 383 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: Stephens said, we do everything we can to control our 384 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:57,120 Speaker 1: cost so even at everything that we do in house here, 385 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: we cannot compete. And our customers that say in the Northeast, 386 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: for instance, when we traveled in that area, they tell 387 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: us they can no longer compete because the Chinese have 388 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: put a warehouse and around major cities and they'll come 389 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: in twenty to forty inercent below you in price. So 390 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: it's just a matter of time. If something is not done, 391 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: will go the way of the furniture and many other 392 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: industries and This is actually a lot of American jobs, 393 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,160 Speaker 1: isn't it. What's your estimate of how many jobs are involved? 394 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: Approximate two hundred and fifty thousand jobs according to the 395 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: studies it's been done. We've kept the focus directly on 396 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: our employees. We have thirteen hundred employees here and that's 397 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: what it's about. It's keeping that way of life and 398 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: you know the availability of those jobs for them. Stephen 399 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: Welburn explains the impact Welburn Cabinets has head on their 400 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 1: small town in Alabama. The industry is very diverse. I 401 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 1: mean it ranges from several companies that may have a 402 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: two and a half billion dollars revenue, which is the 403 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:57,880 Speaker 1: largest non industry, all the way down to a five 404 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: men shop it might have one million dollars and those 405 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: are spread all across rural America. And that's kind of 406 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: how diverse our industry is. These are small communities. In 407 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: the town that we are in is only twenty five 408 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 1: hundred people. It's a very rural setting, so that's what 409 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: they stayed. Next. Roddy Dowd, CEO of Charlotte Pipe and Foundry, 410 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 1: explains how the Chinese brazenly stole his company's US trademark. 411 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: I was delighted when the first monster of Newtsworld was 412 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: Oxford Gold Group. I love entrepreneurial startups of people who 413 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: are eager, willing to go out and do new and 414 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: different things. And as a historian, I know that having 415 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: a balanced portfolio is a very important thing, and they 416 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: offer financial information and background information that I think is 417 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: very helpful. So whatever you say I had to do 418 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: in the end, I think you'll find the information they 419 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: have is really worth while. And that's why I'm delighted 420 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: to introduce you to the Oxford Gold Group. Most of 421 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: us still remember what happened to our four oh one 422 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 1: ks and IRA's back in two thousand and eight during 423 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 1: the financial crash. In a flash, millions of hard working 424 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: Americans lost more than half of their retirement and savings. 425 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: Many of us still haven't recovered those losses. Even as 426 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: the stock market reached record highs. Did you know that 427 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 1: while the stock market crashed, the price of gold and 428 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: silver skyrocketed. In fact, investors who had the foresight to 429 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: diversify a portion of their retirement in savings before the 430 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight meltdown watched as the price of 431 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: gold and silver went up over three hundred percent. While 432 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: millions of Americans lost their nest eggs in the stock market, 433 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: many others were able to make gains most people had 434 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: never seen before. Call the Oxford Gold Group today at 435 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: one eight three three three two seven nine four seven two, 436 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: or visit Oxford Goldgroup dot com slashed New World and 437 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: request your free investor's guide. Investing in precious metals with 438 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: the Oxford Gold Group is safe and secure. We tailor 439 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: investment packages to suit any portfolio. Don't risk the future 440 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: of your IRA four oh one K or savings on 441 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: paper investments. Protect your retirement in savings with physical assets 442 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: like gold and silver. Nobody knows when the next financial 443 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: crisis will happen. Get prepared by talking to the Oxford 444 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,080 Speaker 1: Gold Group by calling one eight three three three two 445 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: seven nine four seven two, or by visiting Oxford Goldgroup 446 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: dot com slash News World. Financial security is just a 447 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: phone call away. Here's Roddy Down, CEO of Charlotte Pipe. 448 00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: Charlotte Pipe is over one hundred years old. Corrects are 449 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: our great grandfather founded in nineteen oh one. That's amazing. 450 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: You're now the largest maker of cast down and plastic 451 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 1: pipe and fittings in the country, is there right? That's 452 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: correct sor we have great customers and great associates. Our 453 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: cast iron foundry is in downtown Charlotte. We're literally a 454 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 1: stone's throw from the panther Or Football Stadium. And then 455 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: our largest plastic pipe and fitting plant is probably twenty 456 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: miles east of near Monroe, North Carolina. And then we've 457 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 1: got other plastic pipe and fitting plants in Pennsylvania, in Florida, 458 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 1: in Alabama, in Texas, in Utah. So you're a significant 459 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,239 Speaker 1: American employer. Yeah. Sorry, We've got about fifteen hundred and 460 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: forty great folks working with us. That's great. Now, as 461 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: I understand that the Chinese competition for you is sort 462 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: of amazingly direct in how they're just trying to mimic 463 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: you out of business, can you talk a little bit 464 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: about this company in China. We've been fighting the Chinese 465 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: for over thirty years where they've dumped subsidized product in 466 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: the United States on cast iron. That's been our major battle. 467 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: A couple of years ago, one of our international guys 468 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: was as a trade show and he was walking down 469 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: an aisle and he saw a company called Charlotte Pipe 470 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: and Foundry, and he kind of scratched his head and said, well, 471 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: I work for Sharlotte Pipe and Foundry. In this case, 472 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: there's a company in Shanghai called Yette Plastics, and they 473 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: know that we've got a brand name that's recognized around 474 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 1: the world, and they lifted it and registered it in 475 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: China in two thousand and ten. And in fact, they've 476 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 1: got our trademark on a neon sign on a building 477 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 1: in Shanghai, and that just shocked the heck out of us. 478 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 1: They can't ship their products with their name into the 479 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: United States because we've got trademark registration here. But when 480 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: we try to ship into China, which is of course 481 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: practically possible since they block Americans out, but certainly in 482 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: other Asian countries, which is the real Charlotte part. So 483 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,719 Speaker 1: we've got two issues. We've got the subsidy and dumping, 484 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: which is the day and day out stuff on both 485 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: cast down and plastics. And then we've got the intellectual 486 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: property South issue, where they've stolen our trademark. If you 487 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: get an American trademark, I guess that doesn't automatically protect 488 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: you worldwide, doesn't I mean you have to go around 489 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,239 Speaker 1: and get trademarked in every country, or is there some 490 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: kind of mutual recognition of trademarks. You really need to 491 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: go country by country to register your trademark. We don't 492 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: selling in all of the countries in the world, but 493 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: the one that we do target we now have our 494 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: trademark registered. Did you only start doing that after you 495 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: saw the Chinese installing it or had you already begun 496 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: doing that before you knew about the Chinese. It was 497 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: such a brazen thing that got our attention, but we 498 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: of course didn't expect anybody would lift our trademark. It 499 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: just was beyond the pale. But with the Chinese, nothing's 500 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: beyond the pale. The most important thing is is that 501 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: we've finally been successful in bringing two trade cases before 502 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: the International Trade Commission. One case we filed in seventeen 503 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: and the other one we filed an eighteen on cast 504 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: iron piping fittings, and we won them both and achieved 505 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: significant countervailing duties against the Chinese, which has finally leveled 506 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: the playing field. After having our guts spilled out for 507 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: thirty years, finally we've got a level playing field. What 508 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: would you say to if somebody in a different industry 509 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: came to you and said they're beginning to have the 510 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 1: problem you had. What would your advice be. First advice 511 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: that I would have is make sure that you're measuring 512 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: how much of the product is coming in. Know exactly 513 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: how much is coming in, and if you have a 514 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: handle on how big the market is, try to measure 515 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: the shift from domestic production to foreign production. And if 516 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: you see a measurable impact both on your selling price 517 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: or your market share. The next thing you need to 518 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: do is engaged. If you have the financial means, you 519 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: need to engage a good trade attorney in Washington. In 520 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: that part of the law, they're just a few good 521 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: specialist trade lawyers and they're all in DC. They're expensive, 522 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: but they know what they're doing. It's a very pure 523 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: you're part of the law, and you've got to get 524 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: a specialist. I measure the stuff. Then I'd engage a 525 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: trade attorney to see if you've got a legitimate case 526 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 1: to bring before the ITC and Commerce and the good 527 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: ones will be very honest with you and say there's 528 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 1: not enough damage. You're premature. Now, that's the real fatal 529 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: flaw in our trade laws and they've been fixed a 530 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: little bit. It's like a patient who's been shot and 531 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: he's bleeding out. Well, they're going to treize you at 532 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: commerce or itc based upon who's down to the last 533 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: unit of blood, and so you've got to be pretty 534 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: badly hurt to be able to bring a case. Though 535 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: there has been a little bit of a remedy in 536 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: recent years in the trade law that at least you 537 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: don't have to be on your last breath present a case, 538 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: but it's essential to get a good attorney. It sounds 539 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 1: to me like we're going to need to revisit some 540 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: aspects of our trade laws to provide greater strength for 541 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: American businesses and to provide greater sanctions against people who 542 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: are deliberately cheating. We definitely do listen. This has been very, 543 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: very helpful. We really appreciate what you're doing for the 544 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: American work or by highlightingness. Charlotte Pipe, I've had the 545 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: most wonderful people, and they deserve good, high paying job. 546 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: In highlighting the trade thing helps them have a secure future, 547 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: and so we're very grateful that you would include us. 548 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: One thing is clear, the Chinese are cheating, and both 549 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: the American people and American businesses are suffering. One of 550 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: the things we've uncovered in this episode is how sometimes 551 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 1: small American owned businesses simply cannot afford the expense of 552 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 1: high profile trade lawyers who are mostly based in Washington, DC. 553 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: It is time for us to reevaluate the laws on 554 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: trade and make sure that if an American company's being harmed, 555 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: that there are ways that can protect itself and can 556 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: guarantee that it can afford to stay in the game 557 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: even when the Chinese government is cheating. We have to 558 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: empower American businesses to defend themselves, and that's going to 559 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: require rethinking some of our trade laws and how they 560 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: are applied. Thank you to my guest David Ross of Wilmerhaile, 561 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: Roddy Doubt of Charlotte Pipe and Foundry, and Paul Wellborn 562 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: and his team at Welburn Cabinets, Stephen Welborn and Shadrick McGill. 563 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: You can read more about how foreign countries cheat in 564 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: global trade on our show page at newtsworld dot com. 565 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: Newtsworld is produced by Westwood One. Our executive producers Debbie Myers, 566 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: and our producer is Gornsey Slump. Our editor is Robert Boroski, 567 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. Our guest booker is 568 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,959 Speaker 1: Grace Davis. The artwork for the show was created by 569 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 1: Steve Penley. The music was composed by Joey self. Special 570 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: thanks to the team at Gingwich three sixty and Westwood Ones, 571 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: John Wardock and Robert Mathers. Please email me with your 572 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: comments at newt at newtsworld dot com. If you've been 573 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts and 574 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: both rate us with five stars and give us a 575 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 1: review so others can learn what it's all about on 576 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 1: the next episode of Newtsworld. You know him for hit 577 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 1: shows like Dirty Jobs and his podcast The Way I 578 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: Heard It. Micro was a great entertainer and a great 579 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: emerge for Labor Day. We're sharing stories about the skilled 580 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,359 Speaker 1: workers who have crossed Mike's path. The importance of work 581 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:59,360 Speaker 1: and rose fascinating on. My grandfather was ill ninety and 582 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: dyet and my mother called me at my desk at 583 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 1: CBS and said, Mike, before your grandfather dies, wouldn't it 584 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 1: be nice if you could turn on the television and 585 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: see you doing something that looked like work. I laughed 586 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: and I said, yeah, that would be great, and so 587 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: I went out and I started filming a series that 588 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: turned into Dirty Jobs. I'm New Gangwich. This is Newsworld, 589 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 1: the Westwood one podcast network.