1 00:00:01,639 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. Hello everyone. My name is Dana al 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: Kurd and this is it could happen here. I'm a 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: professor and researcher of Arab and Palestinian politics and a 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: senior non resident fellow at the Arab Center Washington. Today 5 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: we're joined by Shadin Sakudie, a professor of history at 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: the University of California, Santa Barbara. Her book Men of Capital, 7 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 1: Scarcity and Economy in Mandate Palestine explores economy, territory, the home, 8 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: the body, and she's also editor in chief of the 9 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: Journal of Palestine Studies. Today I wanted to invite Shadin 10 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:45,319 Speaker 1: on to discuss the importance of Palestinian knowledge production and 11 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: Palestinian spaces for writing, researching, analyzing, etc. So, yeah, Shdein, 12 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on. 13 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 14 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: So let's maybe start with a very basic question, what 15 00:00:57,920 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: is the Journal of Palestine Studies? Could you give us 16 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: kind of overview? 17 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 2: Sure? 18 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 3: So, the Journal of Palestine Studies is the flagship journal 19 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 3: of Palestinian studies in the English language. It was established 20 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:16,319 Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy one, so that makes it fifty four 21 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 3: years old. 22 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 2: First it was part. 23 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 3: Of the then be Rout based and still be Rout 24 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 3: based Institute for Palestine Studies and Kuwait University, which sponsored 25 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,760 Speaker 3: what was understood at the time as an international forum 26 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 3: to discuss all aspects of the Palestine question and the 27 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 3: Arab Zientist conflict. And really the people who established it 28 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 3: were looking for shaping a space that could discuss these 29 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 3: matters freely. And the story of the founders is a 30 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 3: really interesting one because they were people like cham Chobi, 31 00:01:55,160 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 3: Walid Relidi, Bandosheni Fuatzauf, and con Stantine Zurich, who actually 32 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 3: was the person who coined the way that we name 33 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 3: the Nekba in his book Man and Nekba that he 34 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 3: wrote in nineteen forty eight, in which he coined this 35 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 3: term the catastrophe to think about nineteen forty eight, which 36 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 3: would you know, be our ongoing condition. And I think 37 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 3: the way to think about these people in there, in 38 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 3: the way that they began the journal is to think 39 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 3: about them as really confronting a landscape of erasure, denial 40 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 3: and urgency and occupying this kind of steady, incessant pain 41 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 3: of the original inception of the Nekba, you know, think 42 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 3: about it in nineteen seventy one, it was not that 43 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 3: long before a decade and a half, yeah, right, And 44 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,679 Speaker 3: I think what's important about you know, in the last 45 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 3: couple of years, people have been kind of making demands 46 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 3: about Palestinian studies as part of you know, some of 47 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 3: the student movements and the staff and faculty movements, and 48 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 3: I think it's really important for people to know that 49 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 3: this comes from a much longer tradition of the production 50 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 3: of knowledge as a real insistence on existence. 51 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:28,079 Speaker 1: Absolutely, Palestinians have been producing knowledge about their state of affairs, 52 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: you know, just like today academics and gaza are producing knowledge, right, 53 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: And I'm always like struck by how just ahead of 54 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: its time, you know, the general Palistine studies is like 55 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: a lot of our understanding of the conflict that are 56 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: now finally starting to seep into the mainstream. We're first 57 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: discussed in these pages. 58 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 2: Some of the. 59 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: Research findings about the history were first articulated in these pages. 60 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: And so that kind of knowledge production is just it 61 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: is a form of resistance to. 62 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 3: Erasure, absolutely, and just you know, some of those would 63 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 3: be for example, Plandalit, which was the you know, the 64 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 3: plan which would lead to the destruction of four hundred 65 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 3: and fifty to five hundred and thirty seven Palestinian villages, 66 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 3: and this plan would come to be recognized through the 67 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 3: work of Benny Morris as a Israeli historian who had 68 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 3: access to Israeli documents, but it's actually was Wulid Rearidi 69 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 3: who had been evidencing and showing the empirical foundations of 70 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 3: Plan Dalit, and it was in the Journal of Palestine 71 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 3: Studies that he published those findings. In that case, I 72 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 3: think that again, for people who are really engaging the 73 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 3: movement for free Palestine and free Palestinians, we really have 74 00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 3: to be approaching the political economy of who gets to 75 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 3: speak right and whose knowledge production is uplifted as legitimate 76 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 3: and worthy. And I think you see a lot of 77 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 3: this kind of centering of Israeli voices, and I think 78 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 3: we really have to in this moment it's urgent to 79 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 3: center Palestinian knowledge production. 80 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's just so many ways that we witness this 81 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: all the time that it's not something worthy of discussion 82 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: unless an Israeli a voice says it. And there's an 83 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: inherent suspicion about the Palestinian scholar, the Palestinian analyst, the 84 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: Palestidian knowledge producer of some kind. Now, of course, the 85 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: last two years have been a true upheaval. The genocide 86 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: and Gaza, a tragedy that we, honestly we haven't really 87 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: absorbed and possibly can't. And we've seen in the last 88 00:05:54,640 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: two years a concerted effort to erase Palestinians further from 89 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 1: the American Academy, but from also like scholarship generally speaking. 90 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: But before I get into that, I wondered if you 91 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: could kind of give your impression of what did doing 92 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: Pawstenian studies look like before October seventh? How was it easy? 93 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: Was it acceptable? I mean, I know the answers, but 94 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: I'd like you to say though, So. 95 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 3: I think one of the things that's been interesting to observe, 96 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 3: and I would date this as happening around COVID when 97 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 3: our colleagues and various disciplines started confronting the reality of 98 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 3: their archives closing. 99 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 2: So I'm a historian, so I speak from that place. 100 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 3: You know, people who study Europe, people who study the 101 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 3: United States kind of confronting that the reality that they 102 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 3: might not access archives that they are accustomed to accessing, 103 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 3: and in a similar way, facing the kind of targeting 104 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 3: and surveillance, the bipartisan targeting and surveillance of academic knowledge production, 105 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 3: and trying to explain to people this is what we've 106 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 3: existed under all along. 107 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: Now. 108 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 3: I think there are similarities across communities of knowledge production. 109 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 2: So I think people who. 110 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 3: Work in black studies, who work in Indigenous studies, who 111 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 3: work in queer studies, gender and sexuality have also been 112 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 3: under the dress of surveillance and targeting. I think for 113 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 3: those of us who have been doing Palestinian studies, what 114 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 3: does it mean, especially if you're a Palestinian doing it, 115 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 3: but whoever you are, It means you have to show 116 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 3: up ten times more ready than anybody else. It means 117 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 3: you have to conduct yourself as if you are always 118 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 3: being recorded. 119 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: Right. 120 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: It means that every single. 121 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 3: Word that you say you should be able to stand 122 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 3: up for in a court of law, and all of 123 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 3: those kinds of restrictions. Actually, you know, you give us lemons. 124 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 3: We're going to make lemonade because those restrictions have imposed 125 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 3: on us a kind of rigor. 126 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: That is the least that we can do. 127 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 3: It also means, I mean, I think for a lot 128 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 3: of us, yourself included, right, I was just somebody was 129 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 3: interviewing me yesterday about oh, have you have you faced 130 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 3: harassment or censorship or something? And I think, at least 131 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 3: in my case, I'm I'm constantly, you know, experiencing these 132 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 3: things and just kind of swallowing it, do you know 133 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 3: what I mean, just getting along with the business of 134 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 3: the every day. So, you know, there was this moment 135 00:08:55,960 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 3: back in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen where for whatever reason, 136 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 3: every couple of months, one of the bots of one 137 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 3: of these surveillance websites would start highlighting me and insulting 138 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 3: me on Twitter, you know, liable calling me names, going 139 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 3: after how I look like really vulgar, misgendering me, that 140 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 3: kind of thing. 141 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 2: And I'd come out. 142 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 3: Of my lecture, you know, and you know, I teach 143 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 3: big classes, and I'd come out of a big you know, 144 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty percon lecture, which requires so much 145 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 3: focus and energy and being present and you know, that 146 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 3: adrenaline rush, and I'd look at my phone and I'd 147 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 3: have fifty notifications and it would just be one insult 148 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 3: after another. 149 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: And that's just. 150 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: Part of the job. 151 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's just how it's been, right, like you know, 152 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 3: from the beginning at least of my graduate career, and 153 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 3: I I started grad school. You know, September eleven happened 154 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 3: when I was in grad school, and I was in 155 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 3: New York when it happened. And you know, we've been 156 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 3: under surveillance, We've been named, we've been watched as part 157 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 3: of what we do, as you said, And in fact, 158 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 3: I got my masters at the Center for Contemporary Studies 159 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 3: and they wrote a book back in the eighties about 160 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 3: the surveillance and I think it's called they Dare to 161 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 3: Speak well, right, right, yeah, these early accounts of the 162 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 3: concerted attempt to silence us. And so what I like 163 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 3: to remind people is at this moment, you know, you said, oh, 164 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 3: they're trying to erase Palestinian scholars. I mean, at least 165 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 3: they're trying to erase the voices who are putting forward 166 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 3: a critical take on Israeli sellar colonialism and genocide. And 167 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,679 Speaker 3: I think what I like to remind people is that 168 00:10:57,720 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 3: there is way more of us now than there's a 169 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 3: been before. Yeah, good point, ten years ago, people like 170 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 3: you and me wouldn't have jobs in the academy. It 171 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 3: may be in a couple of years we won't have jobs, 172 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 3: but I don't know, Like I'm not I don't want 173 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 3: to sit on our laurels and think, oh, okay, we've arrived. 174 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 3: In any case, the whole concept of arrival and career 175 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 3: arrival at this moment has completely changed for me. I 176 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 3: don't know how it is for you, but the effect 177 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 3: of the genocide has made it so that the bankruptcy 178 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 3: of the institutions we work for, the rapid ways in 179 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 3: which they are engaging with obedience and authoritarianism. 180 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: Yep. 181 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like what we've worked for our whole careers. 182 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 3: It's like, I don't think this makes sense, actually, do 183 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 3: you know? So, I would say it's been like that 184 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 3: all along, people even saying to you things like, oh there, 185 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 3: what do you mean you study Palestine? 186 00:11:58,280 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 2: You know, like, what is that? 187 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: Yeah? So yeah, yeah, I mean I'm in a different discipline, 188 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: but certainly it was I remember as a student hungry 189 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: for information. I mean, it was rare to find something 190 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: about the Middle East to be taught, let alone Palestine. 191 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: The level to which they delegitimized Arab and Palestinian sources 192 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 1: or questions of importance to Palestinians and Arabs normatously speaking, 193 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: politically speaking, also theoretically speaking, I mean the amount. I mean, 194 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 1: I can tell you so many stories, Like every person 195 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: who's ever wanted to study Palasad, especially as you said, 196 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: if you are Palestinian, is discouraged from it and is 197 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: told not to, is told this doesn't fit, is told 198 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 1: you know, I'm in political science. The theories don't account 199 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: for Palestine. It's just outside of space and time and theory, 200 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: and you can't account for it, you can't discuss it. 201 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: And the harassment, the harassment campaigns all of us have 202 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: been facing, I mean, it's it takes such a mental 203 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: and emotion toll, and yet we produce, and yet we 204 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: get tenure, and yet we teach our classes and we're 205 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: excellent in our teaching, and our students love us and 206 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: want to learn. But you know, as you said, like 207 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: it really has exposed the degree to which these universities 208 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: because they have been well one like we are in America, 209 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: but also because they have been so divorced from their 210 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: actual missions. Like how meaningless the space this has now become. 211 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: But that's like on the harassment and like kind of 212 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 1: these kinds of obstacle side. I also think like people 213 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: don't recognize like the resources that are needed to teach 214 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: and study and research Palestine that other people in the academy, 215 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,040 Speaker 1: other knowledge producers get very easily. And it's there is 216 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 1: so little for people who study Palestine, and of course 217 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: that impacts what kind of academics are able to do 218 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: this and how many people we even missing from this discussion. Right, 219 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: I agree with you that has been the condition before 220 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: October seventh. I think now after October seventh, that after 221 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: they have attempted to use Palestine as kind of a culgel, Yeah, 222 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: to attack the higher education generally, like not people are 223 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: recognizing it, maybe more, but that has always definitely been 224 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: the case. Oh. Also, I just wanted to remind listeners 225 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: and bring it up, Like I remember Barry Weiss who 226 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: is now the head of CBS. I mean she made 227 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: her claim to fame attacking Arab and Palestinian professors in 228 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: Colombia as an undergrad. Yeah, and that's seen us totally valid. Yeah. 229 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 3: No, I mean I think you know, Palestine is culturl 230 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 3: and also you know I've been saying this for a while, 231 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 3: Palestine is paradigm, right, you know, if you look at them, mdenuine, 232 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 3: I think it reveals also kind of what Palestine also 233 00:14:55,480 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 3: stands for, which is the way that both the Democratic 234 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 3: and the Republican Party have really no link to the 235 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 3: popular realities on the ground, right, and that in effect, 236 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 3: you know, part of the Trump base was really responding 237 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 3: to this disparity, right, this lack of investment and in 238 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 3: the political system. And I think, you know, that for 239 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 3: me was the I don't have hope in electoral politics. 240 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 3: And you know, I don't want to be cynical or anything, 241 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 3: but I think what the Memdenni wind shows us is 242 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 3: that people are disgruntled and they're sick of the kind 243 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 3: of extractive billionaire class doing what they want to do 244 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 3: at the expense of the rest of us. And I 245 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 3: think the media is really complicit in all of this, 246 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 3: so absolutely complicit in the genocide. It's been absolutely complicit 247 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 3: since the you know, War on Iraq, since the Second 248 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 3: War on Iraq, in rendering news as entertainment, you know. 249 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 3: And and it's like you could see the freak out 250 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 3: that people had the media had about Memdnni across the board. 251 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 2: It wasn't just the Fox News. 252 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: No New York Times, everybody. 253 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, and all of the you know television media too. 254 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 3: So it's just I think it's I think there's also 255 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 3: a link to higher education in that way because I 256 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 3: think there has been an investment in making people stupid. 257 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: Right, Yes, that's what I was gonna say. Yeah, absolutely, 258 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: I mean that's exactly what I was going to say. 259 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: Is the Palestinian issue and Palestine studies and research and 260 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: knowledge production, the fact that there exists the few Palestinians 261 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: in higher education has been used to attack higher education. 262 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: But it's not really about Palestine. I mean, it is 263 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: a little bit about palistinde of course, these peop Antipastinian, 264 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 1: but it's about preventing social mobility. So you're saying, like, 265 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,719 Speaker 1: there's all this disgruntlement in the public space. Our students 266 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: are disgruntled, they want to learn, they've been promised something 267 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: with this college education. And you know, even the slight 268 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: bit of social mobility that has existed as a result 269 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: of higher education is too much for the Trump administration. Yeah, 270 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: it's too much for this right wing so house. That 271 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:28,719 Speaker 1: is a class issue. Absolutely, No, it absolutely is. You know, 272 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: are as are all of the kind of struggles we 273 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: stand on solidarity with. You know, it's like, really it 274 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: is intersectional and We didn't need Trump to teach us that. 275 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: But that's the lesson that keeps being delivered time and again. 276 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: And one of the things that's really struck me, and 277 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 1: this has been the case for the last ten years, 278 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: eleven years, long before Trump, and I think one of 279 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: the challenges we faced today is not to over determine 280 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: the Trump administration as the site of all of the 281 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: catastrophes that we're in today. And one of the things 282 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 1: I've noted for the last fourteen years is I don't 283 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: have to teach students that history isn't about things always 284 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: getting better. 285 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 2: That's not a lesson. They need to know. 286 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 3: They understand that teleology and the fallacy of advancement is 287 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 3: a lie. They understand that because they live it, as 288 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,439 Speaker 3: you say. You know, they're in debt, especially those of 289 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 3: us who teach at public universities. You know, most of 290 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,239 Speaker 3: our students are indebted. A lot of them have two 291 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 3: or three jobs. They're housing insecure, their food insecure. They 292 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 3: don't have a clear vision of the future. 293 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: And if they protest genocide, they're labeled antisemitic. Yeah, their 294 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 1: university's cracked down on them. They're docsed. I mean, it's 295 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: so outrageous. Obviously, I don't need to tell. 296 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 3: You their identification with Palestine is also about their own 297 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 3: experiences with Gregrescient of course. 298 00:18:57,880 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 2: So I think that's. 299 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 3: The that really is the momentum, you know that we're witnessing. 300 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 2: Is is that kind of identification? 301 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely. I think it's important for listeners to know 302 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: some of the contours of what has happened after October seventh, 303 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: And like you said, it's not a Trump thing. It 304 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 1: started under Biden. About how Palestine has been used in 305 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: the academy. I mean, as I said earlier, I have 306 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 1: done an episode on this, so I will link that. 307 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: But also you know, there is now evidence and data 308 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 1: around how this issue has been weaponized. So the AAUP, 309 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,640 Speaker 1: the American Association of University Professors, alongside the MIDDLEA Studies Association, 310 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: just put out a report on this exact question about 311 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 1: how titles six investigations, so investigations of alleged discrimination specifically 312 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: about anti Semitism and nothing else. First of all, there's 313 00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: been a huge uptick in them and have been used 314 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: to target these universities. The vast majority of these cases 315 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: has to do with faculty extra mural speech. So like 316 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: these faculty members having an opinion about genocide outside the classroom. 317 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, I always remember I think Edward Side said, 318 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: like being a Palestinian academy is like being an outlaw. 319 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: That's like how it feels. That's how it feels. 320 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fugitive labor for sure. Yeah, definitely. 321 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 3: And I think one of the findings has been also 322 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 3: I don't know if it's ninety five percent of the 323 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 3: cases have been shown to be be fraudulent. Yeah, it'd 324 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 3: be totally fraudulent. So yeah, it's a real policing of speech. 325 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 3: It's a real kind of weaponization of the charge of 326 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 3: anti Semitism, And honestly, sort of one of the things 327 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 3: I think that really happens too, is that students don't 328 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 3: get the tools to actually recognize and understand actually existing 329 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 3: anti semitism right as it is being rehearsed in like 330 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 3: these show trials that we saw in Congress, and these 331 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 3: in the rhetoric of many of the you know, people 332 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:16,360 Speaker 3: affiliated with the administration, in the kinds of alliances that 333 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 3: even the Israeli state right has made with various right 334 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 3: wing anti Semitic states. So it's like, I think one 335 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 3: of the things that it's kind of like watching a 336 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 3: train wreck, just hitting one train after another and just 337 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 3: being like, what is this absurdity? You know, I myself 338 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 3: was accused of being anti Semitic, for having a history 339 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 3: of anti Semitism. So what surprises me is the way 340 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 3: that people are allowing and facilitating this to happen, you know, 341 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 3: and the way that they're not able to recognize how 342 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 3: high the stakes are what it means to be a 343 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 3: Palestinian in this moment. You know, when you've been sitting 344 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 3: watching for two years your people being shredded, and you're 345 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 3: facing the reality of what the stakes are in this moment, 346 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 3: which is the annihilation of Palestine and the annihilation of Palestinians, 347 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 3: your threshold for a shock becomes very high. 348 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 2: And so I mean, I'm sure it's the same for you. 349 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 3: I don't know if like what it's like a constant 350 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 3: trauma response. You know, absolutely, my emotional reactions are shut down, 351 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 3: and I'm in a state of being in the present. Okay, 352 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 3: we got through today, Hopefully we'll get through tomorrow. I 353 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 3: don't I kind of am prepared for the worst at 354 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 3: all times, and you know, it's a condition of vigilance 355 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 3: that I think people when they continue to feed this 356 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 3: kind of right wing agenda of making people stupid and 357 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 3: eroding even the possibility of higher education, it's the kind 358 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 3: of condition that will be much more general. 359 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 4: You know. 360 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, and all these ice rays at the same time. 361 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 2: You know, it's I just saw. I haven't been able 362 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:20,719 Speaker 2: to listen to it. 363 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 3: But a scholar who powerfully is talking about the Mexico. 364 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 2: Palestine border. 365 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,199 Speaker 3: And the and the links between ice and the idea 366 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 3: and the and the ways to think about these two 367 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 3: things together, and. 368 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: Please share that with me. I haven't seen it. I mean, yeah, 369 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: as you said, when we take away Palestine from the academy, 370 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: when we use Palestine to attack the academy, as imperfect 371 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: as the Academy is, it is this larger attempt to 372 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: take away people's analogical tools and frameworks to understanding their reality, 373 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: to understanding how the reality and sex with these other things, 374 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: because they don't want you to be able to solve it. 375 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,719 Speaker 1: They don't want you to be able to mobilize. And then, 376 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: of course there's this, as I said, this class dimension 377 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: of wanting to keep people in their place. There are 378 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: too many black and brown people in the academy. Now 379 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: we can't have that kind of social mobility. I just 380 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: want to emphasize for the listeners why it's so important 381 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: for Palestine to be researched and studied and things like 382 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 1: that is self evident. I don't need to explain it. 383 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: But why is it so important that Palestinians are the 384 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,639 Speaker 1: ones who do that? I mean, again, it feels self evident, 385 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: but I'll say it like, Palestinians have agency, and they 386 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: are full human beings, and they know best what questions 387 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: are relevant, and they have a unique perspective on the 388 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: issue of Palestine as well as other issues. And so 389 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: not only are you engaging in the rature of Palestinians 390 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: when you don't amplify that kind of knowledge production, but 391 00:24:55,840 --> 00:25:00,479 Speaker 1: you are making scholarship poorer. You are limit saying what 392 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: you know about this issue? Yeah, so what do you 393 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 1: think you know? Kind of broadly speaking, students, scholars, sympathizers, 394 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 1: what do you think they should do in this moment. 395 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 3: I want to just go back to the point about 396 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 3: why is it important to have to sure Palestinian voices? 397 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 3: Because when we say that, we're not doing it in 398 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 3: an identitarian way, right of course, Yeah, anybody who wants 399 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 3: to study Palestine should study Palestine. 400 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 2: In doing so, you should be. 401 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 3: Centering the lessons that Palestinians have offered us first and 402 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 3: foremost in this moment, the Palestinians of the Gaza strip 403 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,959 Speaker 3: and in my own practice at the Journal of Palestine Studies. 404 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 2: What I've tried to do in. 405 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,120 Speaker 3: Each of the editor's notes is really lift up all 406 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 3: of the testimonies that we've received from Palestinians in Gaza, 407 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 3: written and social media and all of these, but also 408 00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:01,199 Speaker 3: lift up the international voices of Palestinians like yourself and 409 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 3: many many people who are writing and giving us tools 410 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 3: to understand and analyze. And the reason that's important is 411 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,439 Speaker 3: because the main problem that we face, I believe, is 412 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 3: the way that certain people are more susceptible to being 413 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 3: excluded from the category of the human. Once you exclude 414 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 3: people from the category of the human, it's much easier 415 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 3: to kill them and make them expendable. And I think 416 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 3: our work really in centering Palestinian voices rejects that logic, 417 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 3: right rejects the logic of are we human or not? 418 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 3: Are we going to evidence our humanity or not? No, 419 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 3: we tell our stories, and I think that telling of 420 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 3: the story changes the angle of vision. If you're looking 421 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 3: at what's happening in the Gaza strip from the perspective 422 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 3: of people who are living it, you will see different 423 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 3: things than if you're looking at it from you know, 424 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 3: a drone or you know, a geopolitical lens. 425 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 2: So that's one thing. I think. 426 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 3: Another thing that's really important is you know, I mean 427 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 3: Mahma Dwish said this actually in an interview in journal 428 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 3: Palstine Studies said, you know, the Palestinians are talked about 429 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 3: because they're facing Israeli Jews, because the Jewish question is. 430 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 2: The question of Europe. 431 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 1: Oh that's right, yeah. 432 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 3: And I find that one of the things that continues 433 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 3: to be an issue until now is that what scholars 434 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 3: and thinkers and analysts are a judicating is the question 435 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 3: of Europe and the question of the sustainability of European 436 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 3: values and European notions and all of these things. And 437 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 3: I'm not interested in that. I want to center the 438 00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 3: question of Palestine and that what kind of other tools 439 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 3: that might offer us. So I think, in a way 440 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 3: link to what the earlier conversation about a political economy 441 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 3: of value of scholars. Right, there's a kind of also here, 442 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 3: a political economy of concepts, and I believe that we 443 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 3: have to really provincialize Europe. We have to provincialize Europe 444 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 3: as the means and the ends of all things. It 445 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 3: is not generalizable. No, just ask different questions and look 446 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 3: at you from a different perspective in terms of what 447 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 3: do I think students and scholars and all of us 448 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 3: should do. Is it's going to sound strange, but first 449 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 3: and foremost, study. 450 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 2: Study, read, learn. Those are the critical. 451 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 3: Tools that you gain that will allow you to defend 452 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 3: yourself in a world that is intent. 453 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: On making you stupid. 454 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 3: We all have to reject that. I think there it's 455 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 3: a moment where there's a temptation to slide into sensationalism 456 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 3: or to slide into circulating, especially on social media and 457 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 3: that whole economy. Right, So I think we have to 458 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 3: be vigilant. I think we have to be rigorous, and 459 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 3: I think we have to study. And I think more 460 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 3: than anything else, the lesson I keep coming back to 461 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 3: is we have to take care of each other in 462 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 3: the communities that we build. 463 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's exactly right. I think you begin arming 464 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: yourself with the tools to understand this moment and think 465 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: of ways to defend yourself in your community. And you 466 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: can't do that without being grounded in this knowledge that 467 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: came before you. So listeners, please crack up on a 468 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: journal of Palestine Studies, and of course I'll link to 469 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: all of this in the show notes sitday and I 470 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: could talk to you for hours. Thank you so much 471 00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 1: for your time. This has been really interesting. 472 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me and for all 473 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 3: the work that you do. 474 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: No, thank you so much, listeners. I'm going to also 475 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: put in the show notes a fundraising campaign for the 476 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: journal File Sense Studies. So if you can, you have 477 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: the capacity, it's a sure fire away to help resist 478 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: these dynamics. All right, thanks so much, Take care. 479 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 4: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 480 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 4: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 481 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 4: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 482 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you. 483 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: Listen to podcasts. 484 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 4: You can now find sources for It Could Happen here, 485 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 4: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.