WEBVTT - Why has Kenya’s Deputy President Been Impeached? 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:06.760 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:13.320 The repercussions of Kenya's deadly anti government protests in June 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:16.400 are still being felt in Nairobi. 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:21.880 Now. 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:26.640 Deputy President Brigathi Shagua is facing being removed from office 0:00:26.880 --> 0:00:29.000 after lawmakers voted to impeach him. 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:31.880 They are supposed to be pitched both of them, the 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:38.040 president and the deputy president, because the voted in in 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:38.800 the same ticket. 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:42.479 On this episode of the Next Africa Podcast, we'll look 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:46.360 at what's behind the move to Auskashagua and whether Kenya 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.479 is heading for even more unrest and instability. 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:53.519 From today one forward, we are not calum country. 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:59.160 I'm Jennifer Zabasaja and this is the Next Africa Podcast, 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:02.400 bringing you one story each week from the continent, driving 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:05.839 the future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:12.080 can provide. Joining us this week is our East Africa 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:15.679 Bureau chief, Helen Niamburah. Helen, thank you so much for 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:18.800 coming on the podcast and helping us make sense of 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:21.399 this story. So we're going to get to the events 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:25.160 in parliament shortly. But we're just a few months out 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.360 from those deadly protests that we saw in Kenya over 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:32.600 government plans to raise more taxes. Maybe give us a 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:36.080 timeline or TikTok of what we've seen since then and 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:38.360 how that's led to what we're seeing now. 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:45.160 So we heard the protests around June and July. We 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.080 swe more than sixty people killed in that in those 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:54.200 deadly protests. Since then, we've seen President William Bruto appoint 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:58.320 members of the opposition into his cabinet. So he picked 0:01:58.400 --> 0:02:02.040 four people from the biggest position party to join his 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:06.840 cabinet and in high profile ministries, including the Finance ministry. 0:02:07.360 --> 0:02:11.440 He's also backed the candidature of his main rival at 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:15.040 elections in twenty twenty two, which was Raila Dingham to 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:18.400 be the head of the African Union. He's been attempting 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:22.359 to bring the opposition to his side. He also did 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:25.800 away with the tax measures that he had planned to 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:29.840 implement that were the trigger for those protests, and in 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:35.200 embracing the opposition that was seen by Sam to be 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:40.160 alienation of the deputy president. So since then we've seen 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:45.920 a lot of the allies behind Routeau attacking the deputy President. 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:49.320 So remarks that he's made in the past, his actions 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:51.840 that have been made in the past were now made 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:56.160 into sort of a big deal. So it looked like 0:02:56.240 --> 0:03:00.600 he was being targeted. So it's been culminating throughout the 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:05.120 two years that they have been in power, but after 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:09.440 the protests, I think the attack on him has become bigger. 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:11.440 Helen, I think it's important to know. 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:14.080 I mean, you were saying that the president appointed several 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:16.800 members of the opposition into the cabinet. We should also 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:20.160 maybe discuss the president effectively let go of most of 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:22.360 his cabinet. Can you just walk us through that, and 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:25.040 then why then he brought in the opposition. 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:29.120 Yeah, so he sucked his entire cabinet. The only people 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:31.880 who are left to were the elected leaders, which was 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:35.200 the deputy president and I think he also left the 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:39.640 Prime Cabinet secretary in Musalium Muldavidy. So he let go 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:44.320 of everybody, but brought back half of his old cabinet 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:48.240 and appointed the for from opposition and appointed a few 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:52.320 others that were totally fresh blood. In that way, he 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:58.280 embraced the opposition. So even in Parliament, any policies that 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.440 he wants to push us through this or opposition, he 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:06.320 literally just obliterated the opposition in his favor. While he 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:09.880 did this as an aftermath of the protest. The protests 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:12.800 were not about the opposition. The protests were just young 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:15.640 people said about what's going on in the country and 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:19.240 had nothing to do really with party politics. He was 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:23.320 just really strengthening his hand in Parliament and it did 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:28.160 nothing to appease the protesters. Even during this whole impeachment process, 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:30.839 we've seen a lot of people asking that both of 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:34.120 them should be impeached, not just the vice president but 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:37.160 the president too, because they came in as a joint ticket. 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:39.920 So then how does this al factor into the blame 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:43.080 game that's now going on around the protest, Helen, because 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:45.159 you just mentioned a lot of it was gen Z 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.240 and people being frustrated by policies, but now it seems 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:51.120 like there's a bit of finger pointing going on about 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:52.680 who was really behind it. 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:56.680 During the head of the protests, the President did say 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:01.640 that the protests were infiltrated by criminal gangs. So a 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:05.520 lot of the criminality that we saw shops being broken into, 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:08.400 a lot of theft and so on, the president said 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:11.440 that was they criminal gangs. And in the recent weeks 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:15.440 we've seen some allies of the deputy President being accused 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:19.240 of having bank crossed the criminal gangs. So if you 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:22.599 draw a line, this just goes back to the president. 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.279 It would be interesting to see if this MPs are 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:31.960 indicted for its allegations and if the deputy president is 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:33.000 also drawn into this. 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:35.960 So that leads us to this week in parliament, Helen 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:39.520 give us a sense of who Cachagua is and maybe 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.200 dig into a little bit more why he has a target. 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:43.599 On his back to be impeached. 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:48.560 Yeah, that's interesting. So Cashagoa comes from the very populous 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:54.080 Mount Kenya region. It's a vote reach block and once 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:56.680 you have this block behind you, you're sort of assured 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:01.120 of the presidency. He could argue that he added to 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:05.560 Routor's numbers during the election. He wasn't that much known 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:09.680 before the elections. He was a businessman. He says he 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:14.720 was already wealthy before he came into politics and his 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:18.440 earlier career he was like a civil servant. He worked 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:19.200 for the government. 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:21.159 And what is he being accused? 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:27.039 So there's eleven charges in the impeachment motion. The most 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:30.720 grave ones are about corruption. He is said to have 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:36.839 amassed a property portfolio or about forty million dollars in 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.960 the past two years that they have been in power. 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:43.839 He says most of that he just inherited from his 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:47.600 brother and that he's had money before this and he 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:50.679 invested some of his money into the property. He's also 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:57.240 accused of undermining the president, undermining national security, undermining the 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:02.479 cohesiveness of the nation. Kenya is divided along ethnic groups, 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:06.760 and one of the things he spoke about elia in 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:11.600 the presidency was about shareholding. He said, Kenya has shareholding 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:16.560 and right now the shareholding belonged to his community and 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:20.920 President Rutu's community. In effect, he was alienating a huge 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:24.239 part of the country. Kenya has more than forty ethnic 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:28.280 groups and just saying that it's now the time for 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:32.560 these two communities to rule, which in effect means to 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:37.560 have access to state resources and to being a position 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:41.640 to loot the country. That just rubbed people the wrong 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:45.840 way and totally alienated him from a lot of Kenyans. 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:49.320 So a lot of Kenyans were alienated by that. But 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:54.440 does he have support in any specific corners of the 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:55.840 government among lawmakers. 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:01.280 Among lawmakers, going by the vote in the Assembly on Tuesday, 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.760 does not have any support. It was two eighty one 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:09.520 against him and forty four for him. So if we 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:13.600 can expect the same voting pattern in Senate, then I 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:16.160 would say that it will be the same results over 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:20.680 there too. Among the voters, I think there's a lot 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:23.560 of sympathy for him right now, and a lot of 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:27.200 people are calling for both Rutal and Passia where to go. 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:32.800 So while lawmakers are voting along party lines, the actual voters, 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:35.840 the people on the ground, are asking for both of 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:38.160 them to go. So there's a lot of sympathy for 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:43.600 him just generally because people want the entire government to leave. 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:47.280 Well, it's a tumultuous time for the economy. But stick 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:49.560 with us, Allen. When we come back, we are going 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:51.920 to dig into more about what could happen next and 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:55.560 what this could mean more broadly for the Kenyan government's 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:58.640 attempts to rebuild the economy and the promises that the 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:07.920 president made. Right back, Welcome back today on the podcast, 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:09.679 we are digging into Kenya. 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:12.040 Four months on from deadly protests. 0:09:12.480 --> 0:09:17.200 The country finds itself again in political instability, with Helen Yambua, 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:21.280 our bureau chief in Nairobi, joining us. So, Helen, what 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:25.120 impact does this have on President Ruter's ability to govern? 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:26.440 What are we hearing from him? 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:30.000 He will be able to push any policies that he 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.319 wants in Parliament. He has been able to bring a 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:37.880 position to the fold, so in terms of legislation, it's 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:41.360 going to be very easy for him to govern. I 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:45.400 don't think that the removal of the Vice President portains 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:51.720 any upheaval. It's unlikely to lead to the protest that 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:55.520 we saw earlier in the year. He doesn't have the 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.480 backing of people that would want to go to the 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:00.720 streets to protest for him. 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.400 What about on the investment community, Helen. 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:06.959 We've seen the shilling being pretty stable, We've seen bond 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:11.800 prices barely moving. I think this has been seen as 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:17.120 just another upheaval in Kenya. Investors have become immune to 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:21.319 the frequent up and downs in the country. So unless 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.760 there's something really serious the demonstrations that we sew, the 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:27.880 matches that we saw in June and July, I don't 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:30.800 think that bond crisis are going to take a fitting. 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:35.120 So considering that, Helen, what happens next? What is the 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.560 sentiment on the ground there. I mean, is there a 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.319 reality that's setting in that potentially Kenya is going from 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:45.800 crisis to crisis or is there optimism that potentially there 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:48.640 is an opportunity to turn things around at some point. 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:52.920 I think keny As I just used to living crisis 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:57.680 to crisis. Yeah, this shouldn't be seen as like a 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:02.040 major upheaval for the country. What would be interesting to 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:07.200 see is how Kenyans react to other things that are 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.959 happening in the country. There's the introduction of a new 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:15.800 social health program. There's been questions about how transparent that 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:21.200 has been. There's the proposed leasing of the biggest airport 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.520 in the country to a doney group that led to 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:29.560 protests by aviation workers. That also wasn't very transparent. There's 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:33.160 a litany of problems, and the impeachment of the deputy 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:37.280 president is not the biggest one, and some people would 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:41.640 say it's to divert Kenyan's attention away to these other 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.200 issues that were bubbling. So I would say Kenyans are 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:50.800 used to scandal after scandal or upheaval, and investors are 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:56.199 increasingly immune to them, not reading the headlines and panicking. 0:11:56.640 --> 0:12:00.760 I think until we see what we saw in June 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:05.480 and July, most Kenyans in the markets just continue to 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:07.200 do things as they have done. 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:09.000 We'll leave it there. 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.840 Our East Africa Bureau Chief Helen Yiambura. Helen, thank you 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:15.000 so much for your insight. We know you'll continue to 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:17.520 be all over it. Appreciate you joining us this week. 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.000 Thank you, Jennifer, and thanks so much. 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:23.280 To our East Africa Bureau Chief, Helen Yamburah for joining 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:25.959 us this week. You can read all of the coverage 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:29.040 from our Naborbe team and our teams across the region 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:34.480 on Bloomberg News platforms. Here's a few other stories we're 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.840 watching in the region this week. Cameroony and bonds took 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.719 a hit as worries mounted about the health of the 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:45.800 nation's president raised concerns about a potential succession battle. President 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:49.840 Paul Bia has been absent from public views since early September, 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:53.160 when he traveled to Europe and China, though the government 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.680 says the ninety one year old leader is healthy and 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.560 the Democratic Republic of Congo's top mining of Mischel tells 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:04.479 Bloomberg the country wants to pivot away from China's dominance 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:07.760 of its mining industry. Congo is hoping to attract better 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:11.040 and more diversified investors as they set their sights on 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:15.000 playing a key role in international metals markets. Congo is 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:17.800 the second largest producer of copper and by far the 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:21.319 world's biggest source of cobalt. And you can follow these 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:25.080 stories across Bloomberg, including the Next African Newsletter. We'll put 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:31.200 a link to that in our show notes. This program 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:35.000 was produced by Adrian Bradley. Don't forget to follow and 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:38.199 review the show wherever you usually get your podcasts. 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.680 I'm Jennifer's Abasaja. Thanks for listening.