WEBVTT - What happens when a robot breaks the law? 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.720 Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Neither the 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:06.640 creators nor podcasters for Forward Thinking are bona fide legal counsel. 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:09.559 Consult a local artificial intelligence before participating in actions that 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:11.600 may or may not result in legal consequences a I 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:13.880 crime may or may not be punishable in your quadrant. 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:25.520 Welcome to Forward Thinking. Hey there, and welcome to forwards Thinking. 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:28.800 The podcast that looks the future says secret Secret, I've 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:32.440 got a secret. I'm Jonathan Strickland, I'm Lauren Laban, and 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:36.080 I'm Joe McCormick. So how's everybody doing today? Not too bad? 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:38.559 How about you? Joe? I am doing wonderful because we 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:42.440 have a podcast topic that I'm very excited about, very excited. 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:47.000 It's about breaking the law, breaking the law, which which 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:48.919 we is the second time we have referred to that 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:51.600 while we were in the studio and it's still funny 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:54.240 to us. Yes, and so it's not about the future 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:59.920 of judas priest. No I saw many Oh did you 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:02.360 not get that reference at first? Oh? No, no, no, 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:04.520 I was just like, what is the future of judus priests? 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:06.920 Can we talk about that today? Instead? Can we just 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:09.760 scrap this entire episode if I cannot do that, so 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:12.200 let's let us focus on somehow. Because I don't have 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:14.600 the notes on Judus Priest, I can't really talk about it. 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:17.840 I don't think that would be an incredibly fruitful discussion. No, Instead, 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:21.840 I want to talk about machines doing stuff they're not 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:26.640 supposed to do the law, doing things that are socially unacceptable. 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:29.000 I thought you're talking about like when my toaster burns 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:32.880 the toast, but you're you're going a little further than that. Yeah, 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:35.880 that that's lame. So this would be like my toaster 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:39.880 going not criminal, a three state arson spree, burning down 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:42.160 schools or something that would be more akin to what 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:44.960 we're talking about. It actually would, because I want to 0:01:45.160 --> 0:01:49.320 ask a general question about where we draw the line 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:54.560 for humans having to accept responsibility for what their machines do. 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:58.720 Which humans have to accept the responsibility when a machine 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:03.080 does something bad, sure, and or any types of machines exempt. 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:06.320 So there was This was actually inspired by some news 0:02:06.360 --> 0:02:09.120 stories I saw recently, But I want to talk about 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:12.160 some hypotheticals first, and then we'll get into some really 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:16.040 bizarre actual examples of what it looks like when a 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:22.040 semi autonomous machine does something not so cool. Okay, so 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:26.080 let's say you are a roboticist. You enjoy building robots, 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:29.120 all right, that that I could imagine that, sure, And 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:32.519 the way you express this enjoyment is that you build 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:36.960 a bipedal humanoid robot and program it to strut down 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:41.200 the sidewalk, pushing random pedestrians into traffic. Well, that does 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:44.000 not sound like me. But okay, are you sure. I've 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:47.079 seen you pretty cranky some days. If that street were Twitter, 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.200 if the street were if I were pushing pedestrians into Twitter, 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:54.960 that I'm alright with that. Just right into the flow 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:58.600 of the tweets. They're falling into the birds, the fail 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:01.120 whale falls on top of them. But this example, this 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:04.200 this hypothetical example you give where we we have a 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:07.960 person who has created a machine specifically with the intent 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:11.400 of harming others. Yeah, this is sort of a starting 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:14.200 point because it should be obvious to everyone that the 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:18.360 person who created this machine bears responsibility for what it does, 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:22.160 right right, Yeah, because they designed the thing to do 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.960 exactly what it is doing, which is bringing people into 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:30.400 potential situations. Yeah. I would call this sort of like 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:34.840 the weapon orientation towards robotics. You're simply using the robots 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:38.840 body and programming as a weapon. Not much different than 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:41.360 if you're using a big stick to bash somebody on 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:43.920 the head. It's just like a more complex stick, right. 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:47.200 So in other words, the robot itself is not at fault. 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:50.960 It's actually carrying out the programming of and and the 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:53.960 design for which it was built. It's really the person 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:57.440 who was behind that design and programming who's truly at 0:03:57.440 --> 0:03:59.920 fault in this case. And furthermore, the robot doesn't know 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:02.120 what it's doing. It's not aware of the fact that 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:05.880 it's causing harm to humans because it doesn't understand complex situation, right, 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:09.080 just as a an industrial robot doesn't understand that it's 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:13.080 building a car. It's just following a very specific set 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:17.760 of motions that it repeats until someone stops it, or 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:19.880 like your room, but doesn't understand that it's freaking your 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:22.720 cat right out. Yeah, well, I mean, we we have 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:27.000 to assume these things assuming robots don't have secret consciousness. 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:29.799 So fairly confident with that. But yeah, yeah, yeah, slightly 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:33.240 different scenario. What if you imagine the same thing I 0:04:33.320 --> 0:04:36.919 just described, but one person writes the code for a 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:40.760 bipedal robot that walks around pushing people, but never uploads 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:43.880 it into a robot body because this programmer wrote the 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:48.640 program as a joke. Then another person comes along takes 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:52.200 that joke program uploads it into a robot body, not 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:58.640 understanding what it would do when activated. Who's responsible? Then? Uh? So, yeah, 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:02.200 this is interesting. I started king into court cases for 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.520 the closest approximation I could find for these kind of 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:11.800 scenarios because obviously we don't really have court law established 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:15.200 for this kind of stuff because we're not quite there yet. 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:18.560 But but if you think this is something that why 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:20.839 are they even talking about this? It's never gonna happen. 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:23.719 Just wait till we talk about a few cases later 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:26.160 in this podcast. Right, And so some of the law 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:32.120 I'm looking at it uh refers back to gun laws, gunmakers, 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:35.159 guns sellers, that kind of thing. And the courts have 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:38.799 found that gunmakers and gun sellers can be held accountable 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:43.719 for practices that could end up allowing guns to enter 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:47.279 the hands of criminals or gun traffickers if they have 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:50.880 not shown that they have taken the proper steps, if 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:54.680 they have been negligent in some way or purposefully allowing 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:58.000 this to happen, they can be held criminally responsible. So 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:01.240 it would probably be a case by case basis. Let's 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:03.960 say that we have this hypothetical situation you have proposed, 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:10.000 where someone has created a potentially hazardous program but not 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:13.960 not actually executed that program. Someone else takes that program 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:16.440 and uploads it to a robot, not knowing what the 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.359 program does. That would be something that would have to 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:22.640 be decided within an actual case, right, And I would 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:25.960 imagine that it would be a very complicated, drawn out case, 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:29.200 pricey a lot of different appeals, because the actual situation 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.520 you've laid out here has so much wiggle room in 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:36.400 either direction that it would be you know, it's impossible 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:38.640 for us to say what the outcome would be. Oh yeah, yeah, 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:42.040 and it obviously depends on the amount of harm done. 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:45.839 And but there are certainly um for example, in voluntary 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:49.480 man slaughter laws, sure, which means that you are still 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:52.160 responsible for someone's death even though you completely did not 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.320 mean to do it. Yeah yeah, there, it's really it's 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:59.640 establishing the level of accountability. And you know what, whether 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:03.599 in hent was there or not there, um, it would 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:06.720 be it would be a complicated case. But I imagine 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:10.200 that ultimately both parties would be held responsible. Both both 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:14.640 humans in this hypothetical situation would likely be held responsible 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:18.119 to what extent would depend upon the actual parameters of 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:21.040 of the situation. Yeah, okay, here's another one, the third 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:24.040 one that would be sort of analogous to the way 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:27.440 we have to ask questions about weapons that exist today. 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:31.080 What if one person builds and programs a pushing robot 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:33.960 and sells it to somebody else, and then the new 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:36.800 owner releases it onto the sidewalk and it does its thing. 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:40.640 Who's responsible? Then? I think both parties would be held responsible. 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:42.800 I think actually this one is way easier than the 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:46.680 first hypothetical situation because you have someone who has designed 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:51.320 a device specifically to put others into harm. There's no 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:54.280 other reason for that device, Like, it's not a tool 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.280 used for anything else. Okay, sure, this is this is 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:01.840 a special concept because is there aren't really that many 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.480 people pushing robots around right now, but but in the 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:07.360 incredible future when we all have robots that are capable 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:11.480 of pushing people. Um, I don't know, it's it's a 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:15.200 it's a complicated and big question, and I would suspect 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:19.680 that that the maker of the object could you know, 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:23.080 make any number of arguments about the actual purpose of 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:24.720 the object, and that it would be the person who 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:31.360 sold the dangerous thing. And well, I can I can argument. 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:33.640 I can see your argument because you could state that 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.400 there are a lot of things out there where the 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:39.280 the person who created it could argue their way out 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.400 of the You know, I just built this thing. I 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:43.920 didn't put it to use, and it wasn't my intent 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.360 to have this be something to harm you know, innocent 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:52.200 civilians or whatever. But in this particular hypothetical situation, it's 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:57.000 hard to imagine a world where someone couldn't successfully argue 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:00.280 you built a robot with the specific per us to 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:06.640 push people. Um, well, let's make it more complicated because 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:09.680 this this was we just started arguing about what was 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:14.040 supposed to be the really easy, obvious example. Let's say 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:17.320 you build a bipedal robot that is simply designed to 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:20.960 walk forward on a flat surface. It's not designed to 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:23.920 hurt anyone, and in fact, it has safety measures in 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:26.959 place that are supposed to keep it from hurting anyone. 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:29.960 But the problem is the person who programmed it's walking 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:33.720 behavior did not write very good object recognition or collision 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:38.240 detection code. So it walks down the sidewalk, occasionally accidentally 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:42.479 pushing anyone who gets in its way. Is the programmer 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:46.880 criminally liable? Could this be considered criminal negligence if someone's hurt? 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:51.240 Probably not criminal negligence, at least not right now. I mean, 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.559 if you're if you look at correlatives and other industries, 0:09:55.240 --> 0:10:00.440 this would be something akin to a defect, and you 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:05.760 could pursue civil cases against the manufacturer, programmer, etcetera. You 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:08.520 would actually have to identify which parties you would want 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:13.480 to sue in pursuit of getting damages from whatever this 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:17.839 you know entity is UH, and I would imagine it 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:22.360 would follow that same route, So you wouldn't be able 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:25.200 to necessarily sue them or or you wouldn't be able 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:29.720 to pursue a claim of criminal negligence necessarily, but you 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:33.040 might be able to say this defect in this UH 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:37.920 in this device lead to injury suffering. Therefore, I'm going 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:41.960 to ask for um some form of restitution on that UM, 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:45.360 and liability would certainly still be on the side of 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:49.680 whoever made the thing in that case. Yeah, and again 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:51.920 I do think that it probably depends on the severity 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:54.600 of the damage done of course, yeah, especially if you're 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:58.160 talking about like lawsuits or something, right, Yeah, but yeah, 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:02.600 let's muck this up even there. One last hypothetical before 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:06.160 we get to the real examples. What if instead of 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:11.280 one programmer, many waves of graduate students and professors in 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:16.160 a university artificial intelligence lab work on various stages of 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.040 source code for a robot that is designed to find 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:22.000 the safest and best way to navigate a busy sidewalk, 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:25.760 and over time, this robot gets very complex. It's a 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:29.920 very complex piece of artificial intelligence. It's navigation decision making, 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:35.400 is displaying unexpected emergent behaviors the way we would expect 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:39.760 any highly advanced artificial intelligence program to have, and in 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:43.680 one particular test, it decides to kick a slow poke 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.720 out of the way. Now, it was never programmed to kick. 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:49.240 In fact, you know, we can stipulate they put some 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:51.599 kind of safety measures in place to make sure it 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:55.880 didn't hurt people. But this program had enough complexity and 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:59.920 freedom that it basically invented the move of a kick 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:02.920 as a novel solution, sort of like how we talked 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.960 about the artificial intelligence program that was able to identify 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.760 what a cat was, define what a cat was by 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:13.040 seeing enough examples of a cat. In this case, we're 0:12:13.040 --> 0:12:16.320 talking about an artificial intelligent program that comes up with 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:20.960 a novel solution to trying to get through a particular 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:26.559 an obstacle. Yeah. Yeah, So an unspecified emergent behavior from 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:32.040 this robot or computer program does something socially unacceptable. Are 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:37.040 the creators held accountable for it? This one is particularly tricky. Yeah. 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:39.679 I think at this point we just burn all computers 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:43.000 and go back to living in caves. And it's it's 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:46.400 possible that the only solution to this problem, and we'll 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:49.160 talk more about this in a little bit, is to 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:53.160 not is when we get to this level of complexity, 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.680 this level of sophistication, is to not necessarily look back 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:59.480 on the people who made it, who designed it. This 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:05.000 is where we start to perhaps discuss the possibility of 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:09.880 extending some form of the concept of personhood two robots, 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.679 meaning that you'd have to have some form of liability 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:17.840 upon the robot itself, which usually I mean you'd think like, well, 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.760 how do you hold a robot responsible? I mean, you 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.800 can't punish a robot. You can't you know, you can't 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:26.320 go after a robot's bank account, A robot doesn't have 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.120 a bank account. So in this case, you would have 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:33.920 to create a whole new type of industry, essentially robot insurance, 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:37.200 which would cover this sort of thing, and you would 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:40.440 end up having the robot insurance would have to be 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.440 the thing that would cover that liability. And in fact, 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:48.439 this is something that people have honestly and seriously suggested. 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.720 It will talk more about personhood and a little bit. 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:56.040 We're going to discuss a specific implementation of robots and 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:59.280 robot intelligence in the form of autonomous cars, a subject 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:02.280 we've talked about a lot on this show, yes, and 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:05.240 which is more practical than the walking robots we have 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:07.920 been using as an example here, right right, So, so 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:12.640 the kung fu robots will take a back seat figuratively speaking, 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.280 in our autonomous car, and we will discuss personhood with that. 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.120 But we've got some other things to talk about first. Sure. Well, 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.760 there were a couple of news items I saw recently 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:25.320 that made me want to talk about this subject in general, 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:29.520 and they were both examples of where computer programs and 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.120 you know, we've been using the word robot or bought 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.400 kind of loosely. You know, there are embodied robots that 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.240 have some kind of physical form. But we could also 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:42.200 just be talking about computer programs. So these are computer 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:47.480 programs that one way or another violated conventions in a 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:51.360 way that was unacceptable at some level to law enforcement. 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:58.920 So one of them is a shopper bot that bought drugs. Okay, Wait, 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:02.280 you're gonna have to go a little more further into detail. Yeah, okay, 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:05.640 So we want to go back to last year. There 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:10.360 were some Swiss artists based in London that called themselves 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:14.240 Median Group. Bit nick I hope I pronounced that right. 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:19.040 It starts with an exclamation point before the Median Group. Okay. 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.760 And they conceived an art project exploring the existence and 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:27.560 implications of underground marketplaces on the deep Web. So I 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:29.720 think they were sort of trying to get at what 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:34.680 it means that we have these just continuous, ongoing underground 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:40.200 markets for illicit goods, all right. And they created a 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:46.440 program called the Random Darknet Shopper. It is an online 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:50.360 shopping bot. It's a computer program that once a week 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:55.440 goes into a marketplace on the deep Web. Brief side note, 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.400 Jonathan explained the deep Web in less than a hundred words. 0:15:59.040 --> 0:16:05.720 All right. So it's theoretically the untraceable anonymous web where 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:11.080 you can do clandestine things without having all your online 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:14.200 motions tracked. Right, So, if there's an iceberg, that is 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:18.560 the Worldwide Web. The part poking out the top is Google, Yahoo, 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:22.040 all the normal stuff we do, and then below the 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:25.720 surface is this massive hive of scum and villainy. Well 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:28.400 it's not, I would argue, it's not as massive as 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:31.840 what the iceberg example would have you believe. But yes, 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.560 that otherwise is accurate. Okay. Anyway, so backing up, this 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:38.480 computer program, once a week goes onto a marketplace on 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:41.440 the deep Web with a hundred dollars worth of bitcoin 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:45.960 to spend, okay, and it makes a random purchase each week. 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:50.120 All right, So what are some of the purchases. Well, yeah, 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:53.000 here is a sampling of some things. The random darknet 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:58.960 shopper randomly bought fake diesel jeans of course, a stash 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:01.320 can that looks like a can of sprite. I believe 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:03.880 a stash can I think is too high drugs or 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:08.400 other illicit substances in I would I would imagine correct jewelry. 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:12.919 If you don't want brobbers to find your jewelry. That 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:17.879 is a very good cover story Lauren. Also it bought 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:21.879 a Lord of the Rings e book collection. Would you 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:27.280 would you might store your e hobbits in baseball cap 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.639 with a hidden camera inside. Of course, some Nike shoes. 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:37.520 It came up with a fake Hungarian passport scan, ten 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:43.439 packs of Chesterfield Blue cigarettes from Moldavia. And here's the 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:47.440 big one, a packet of ten hundred and twenty mill 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:52.400 Graham tablets of M D M A. That's ecstasy. Ah. 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.679 And so the the all of these things I believe 0:17:55.760 --> 0:18:00.520 were delivered by the sellers to the artists and then 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:04.879 they were displayed at an art exhibition about this, about 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:08.440 this shopper at Kunstall and Saint Gallen called the dark 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:12.080 Net from Memes to onion Land, and that exhibit was 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:17.720 open through January eleven. So they had to know, the 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.400 artists had to know when they made this Darknet shopper, 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.960 that it was possible, maybe even very likely, that this 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:27.400 shopping bot would buy something illegal. Well, yeah, I mean, 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:30.600 the the one of the things, it's they're looking at 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:33.040 underground markets right right. They could have had it go 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:36.320 on Amazon if they had wanted it to bring back 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:39.560 nothing but chocolate and at the very worst, like novelty 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:43.280 sex toys, though you may note from the things I 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:46.760 listed that while most of its purchases were somewhat sketchy, 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.639 most of them also were not illegal, and there are 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:54.640 many not illegal things on sure. Yeah, I mean it's 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:56.920 It's one of the things we like to mention is 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:01.520 the fact that while there are plenty t of examples 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:05.840 of illegal goods, people using the Deep Web for purposes 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:09.560 to you know, illegal purposes, that's not the only reason. 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:11.680 There are plenty of people who are just very concerned 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.320 about their privacy. They don't want they don't want their 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:17.439 purchases tracked by people. They want the freedom to be 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:22.120 able to shop without any kind of uh, you know, supervision, 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:25.040 whether it's corporate or government or whatever. And it has 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:27.920 nothing to do with trying to shop for illegal goods. Sure, 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:32.800 but I would guess that probably the artists in question, 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:36.240 we're sort of hoping. I mean, it's hard to speculate, 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:39.960 you know, we can't really know, but yeah, they must 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:42.920 have known that it was highly possible that it would 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:46.600 buy something illegal, even though they never explicitly told it 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:49.680 to do so. Right, So, what's the deal? Are these 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:55.240 artists criminally liable for in countries that have drug laws 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:58.960 against buying something like M D M A. And should 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:01.240 they be held criminally liabele in such a case. I mean, 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:03.880 putting aside whatever you think about drug laws and all that, 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:07.840 just assuming this program bought something that's against the law, 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:11.800 should that be should the art the people who created 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:16.040 something like this be punishable under the law, right, considering 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:21.120 that the assuming of course, that that the the shopping 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:24.320 truly was random, that that there was no way to 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:28.679 direct said shop bot to go for anything. In particular, 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:32.240 is it the fault of the programmers if the shop 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:35.920 bought actually does buy something that is illegal, and it's 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:38.119 that's a complicated question. Yeah, I mean it would be 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:42.160 almost like if you if you created a bipedal robot 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.399 with a sack full of items and then sent it 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:49.960 down into the street with instructions to barter with random strangers. 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:52.840 Now what if it came back with some drugs or 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:57.479 some illegal guns or something, right, I mean, what what 0:20:57.520 --> 0:20:59.639 would you think then? Well, and and part of it 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:02.960 made us be that the this is the source stuff 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:06.440 that's decided upon in court cases, right, It's not It's 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:08.240 not like that we have an answer right now where 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.200 we could say oh, well, this is clearly X, Y 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:12.800 or z. This is something that ends up getting decided 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:16.520 after long drawing out court cases. And also it could 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:21.480 even be that we ultimately see something where anything that 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:24.359 doesn't have any agency of its own, like it doesn't 0:21:24.359 --> 0:21:26.960 have the ability to make decisions on its own in 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:31.760 a conscious way. It's truly following as close to random 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:34.800 action as you can determine. It may end up being 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:39.439 that if it makes contact and purchases illegal things, that 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:43.040 the accountability shifts to the person doing the selling of 0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:46.560 that illegal substance and not necessarily the buying, although again 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:49.359 there's also the question of what do you do? What 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:52.720 did the people you know, wherever that stuff went to, 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:55.040 what do the people do with that? In this case, 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:58.199 we're talking about art and art show right right, and 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:00.840 that complicates it even further. So there are a few 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:03.679 opinions that came across. In the Guardian, they had an 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:06.880 article about this event, and the writer of the Guardian 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:10.200 article got a statement from somebody in great written from 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:13.159 the National Crime Agency who basically said that this kind 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:14.960 of thing would have to be assessed on a case 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:18.879 by case basis. It's so weird and unusual that you 0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:20.760 you kind of have to would just look at the 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:26.000 individual circumstances. Though, as things like this become more common, 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:27.919 it seems like it would be harder to try to 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:31.240 make up a new way to apply the law every 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:33.479 time you see a case like this. Yeah. Well, well, 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:36.480 I'm sure that eventually the law would catch up. Yeah. 0:22:36.720 --> 0:22:39.119 Fusion dot Net also had a good article about this 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:42.040 where they talked to a University of Washington law professor 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:46.240 named Ryan Callo about the legal outcome of such a situation, 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:50.879 and and Calo made an interesting distinction between the way 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:54.480 the law is written. And so Calo was talking about 0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:58.359 the difference between laws that are written in such a 0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:02.800 way that they explicitly punished reckless behavior versus laws that 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:05.879 explicitly call out intent. And that's how it is in 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:08.560 the United States. So, in other words, if if I 0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:13.440 were to create a program that would specifically go out 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:17.920 and find illegal drugs, that's very clear there's an intent there. 0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:23.080 If I create a program that it doesn't discriminate on 0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:26.359 whatever is being sold and therefore could buy illegal drugs, 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:29.240 or it could buy a bunch of e books of 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:32.160 Lord of the Rings, then that would fall more under 0:23:32.200 --> 0:23:36.040 the reckless behavior depending upon what environment I set that 0:23:36.160 --> 0:23:39.000 shop bought out in. So, in other words, if the 0:23:39.040 --> 0:23:42.720 phrasing of the statute itself, sure, Yeah. If the if 0:23:42.720 --> 0:23:46.280 the statute is to guard against reckless behavior, and I 0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:49.920 release a random shop bought into a target rich environment 0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:52.280 in which there's a lot of illegal activity going on, 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:55.920 there's a there's definitely an argument to be made that 0:23:56.000 --> 0:23:59.879 I was acting recklessly and therefore m AM liable in 0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:03.119 that sense, Whereas if it were more on the intent side, 0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:06.240 that would be a lot harder to argue. Yeah. Another 0:24:06.280 --> 0:24:08.520 thing I wanted to read a specific sentence from a 0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:12.000 quote from Calo was that he said, wanting a bad 0:24:12.000 --> 0:24:16.399 outcome doesn't make it illegal. You cannot wish someone to death, 0:24:16.920 --> 0:24:19.720 But purposefully leaving the bot in the dark net until 0:24:19.720 --> 0:24:23.680