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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: And Stolenberg. So Secretary General joins us now, mister Secretary General,

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Speaker 2: want for to catch up with you against I just

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Speaker 2: wanted to stab with some comments from the French President

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Speaker 2: Emanuel Macaran, a series of comments over the last month.

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Speaker 2: I'd love your response to He hasn't ruled out eventual

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Speaker 2: boots on the ground in Ukraine. He recently suggested sending

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Speaker 2: personnel there, including the possibility of training troops in the country.

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Speaker 2: I just wondered have you spoken to him directly about

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Speaker 2: some of these proposals.

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Speaker 3: I'm a regular contact with the French President and all

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Speaker 3: the leaders in the NATO Alliance, and what is clear

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Speaker 3: is that NATO has all plans of deploying combat troops

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Speaker 3: into Ukraine, but we will step up our military support

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Speaker 3: to Ukraine with ammunition, equipment, weapons, so Ukraine can liberate

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Speaker 3: more territory and prevail.

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Speaker 4: And as a sovereign independent nation in Europe.

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Speaker 3: Because that much for Ukraine, but it also matters for

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Speaker 3: all NATO allies.

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Speaker 2: So could I be more specific sending person out there

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Speaker 2: to train troops? How risky is the training option in

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Speaker 2: your view?

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Speaker 4: Well, again, as we are providing training.

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Speaker 3: NATO alas are providing taining for tens of thousands of

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Speaker 3: Ukrainian troops, have done that for many years, but that

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Speaker 3: space now outside Ukraine. So our support is to provide training,

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Speaker 3: it's to provide ammnition weapons, but not to have combat

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Speaker 3: operations inside Ukraine.

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Speaker 5: I want to also ask you about the fact of

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Speaker 5: the former president coming back. That's a little bit large

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Speaker 5: on some of these partners within NATO, especially when it

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Speaker 5: comes to the Ukrainian Defense Contact Group, which is run

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Speaker 5: by the United States. Is there a chance you bring

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Speaker 5: that in house so that NATO controls that and pretty

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Speaker 5: much safeguards it no matter who runs us.

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Speaker 3: Well we are We agree that the NATO FORUMU is

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Speaker 3: still admitting this week to start planning for a stronger

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Speaker 3: NATO role in providing and coordinating support to Ukraine. The

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Speaker 3: US said contact for Ukraine has played and contains to

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Speaker 3: pay very important a role. But I think that NATO

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Speaker 3: can ensure that we have even more robust and more

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Speaker 3: predictable framework for our support to Ukraine. That's needed because

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Speaker 3: Ukrainians need to know that we are there for the

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Speaker 3: long haul. So that's what we're starting to do at NATO.

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Speaker 3: And I expect a decision before the NATO seventeen Washington

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Speaker 3: in July.

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Speaker 5: Other other areas you're trying to shore up NATO control

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Speaker 5: because you are concerned about political instability.

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Speaker 3: Well, my proposals on a stronger NATO role is based

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Speaker 3: on the situation on the battlefield in Ukraine, the urgent

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Speaker 3: need they have to have more reliable, more predictable support,

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Speaker 3: the need we have within NATO to ensure more fair

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Speaker 3: burden sharing among allies. Nineteen nine percent of the military

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Speaker 3: support comes from NATO allies, and we have to be

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Speaker 3: sure that that burden is shared equally among allies. And then,

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Speaker 3: of course we also need to send a message to

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Speaker 3: Moscow that we are there for long hauld. Because now

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Speaker 3: President Puttin believes that he can wait us out, he

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Speaker 3: has to understand that he will not win on the battlefield.

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Speaker 3: He cannot wait out Ukraine and NATO allies, and therefore

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Speaker 3: stronger institutionalized NATO framework will send that message and then

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Speaker 3: force him to sit down and negotiate an agreement where

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Speaker 3: Ukraine pervades as a severn independent nation in Europe.

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Speaker 1: Secretary General, we talk almost every morning about the potential

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Speaker 1: for Ukraine funding in the US to be passed, and

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Speaker 1: how it's gotten hung up by politics again and again

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Speaker 1: and again. How difficult does it make it for you

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Speaker 1: to wrangle support to get to one hundred billion dollar

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Speaker 1: fund that you plan for the next five years for Ukraine.

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Speaker 3: Of course, it matters that the United States has delayed

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Speaker 3: its decision to provide support to Ukraine. That's one of

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Speaker 3: the reasons why the Ukrainians now how to rustion the

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Speaker 3: number of shells their forces can use, and why Ukraine

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Speaker 3: is outgunned by the Russian forces. At the same time,

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Speaker 3: we have to remember that Europeanas and Canada are providing

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Speaker 3: roughly fifty percent half of the military support to Ukraine.

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Speaker 3: So it's not only the United States. It's also ordnate

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Speaker 3: to allies. But of course the United States being by

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Speaker 3: far the individual ally which is providing the most.

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Speaker 4: It matters and.

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Speaker 3: Therefore I really hope that the US Congress can make

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Speaker 3: a decision as soon as possible. This is important for Ukraine,

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Speaker 3: but it's also in the security interest of the United

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Speaker 3: States to prevent President Putin from winning, and that will

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Speaker 3: send a message to him, but also to President g

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Speaker 3: in China that when they use military force and they

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Speaker 3: invade another country.

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Speaker 4: When they're violet international law, they.

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Speaker 3: Achieve their aims that will reduce the threshold and the

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Speaker 3: future use of force. What happens in Ukraine today can

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Speaker 3: happen in Alan tomorrow. So therefore it is in the

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Speaker 3: national security interest of the United States to provide the

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Speaker 3: military support to Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: Secretary General Henry was talking about former President Trump coming

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Speaker 1: back to power and how that's looming large, and I

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Speaker 1: wonder how much those criticisms are also looming large that

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Speaker 1: are not just isolated to Donald Trump, but others as well,

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Speaker 1: saying that frankly, a lot of NATO members have not

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Speaker 1: contributed enough to the spending and to the financing of

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Speaker 1: some of these efforts. How much reluctance are you hearing

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Speaker 1: from some of the NEEDO members that haven't traditionally contributed

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Speaker 1: as much to really helping fund or disproportionately fund that

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Speaker 1: one hundred billion dollars.

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Speaker 3: So I strongly believe that it has been a valid

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Speaker 3: point from the United States that European allies have not

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Speaker 3: invested enough in NATO in defense, but that has really changed.

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Speaker 3: We made a pledge in twenty fourteen when President Obama

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Speaker 3: was present to the United States to ensure that all allies

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Speaker 3: spent two percent of GDP on defense. At that time,

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Speaker 3: in twenty fourteen, only three allies spent.

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Speaker 4: Two percent of GDP on defense.

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Speaker 3: This year, we expect around twenty allies two thirds of

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Speaker 3: the allies to spend two percent. That's a huge difference.

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Speaker 3: It's a significant improvement. And when it comes to the

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Speaker 3: extremony for Ukraine, one of the reasons why I want

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Speaker 3: a stronger NATO framework, institutionalized framework around the support is

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Speaker 3: that that's a way to ensure fair burden sharing, to

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Speaker 3: actually agree some kind of cost shares or to agree

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Speaker 3: a way to finance. And by doing it too, we

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Speaker 3: can ensure fair burden sharing and that and that makes

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Speaker 3: it easier to get all large and and bord also

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Speaker 3: the United States.

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Speaker 2: Secretary General, we appreciate the ongoing conversation. Thanks for joining

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Speaker 2: us this morning, Sir in Stoldenberg there of NATO